(upbeat music) - Damn it. - Oh, welcome everybody, 566. This episode is just Owen and I. We're going to talk about one more person. - One more person asks me if we're going on a hiatus. I'm gonna lose my mind, all right? - Somebody asked you that? - Several people. - Why? - I don't know. - It's not like we haven't been here for forever and maybe it's not as quick. I don't know, we're not doing it as consistently, but- - We've heard of God best everything. - Or just as they would like. - Yeah. - Well, you know, well, that's funny. Bring this up, right? 'Cause this is something that I've been struggling with. It's like, I mean, you know how we, opposite usually go through burnout and stress and all that stuff. - My thing is only caused by just, I go through these points in life where everything is great and then everything is shit, you know? - I mean, that's, yeah. - And it's like, it doesn't seem to like, for me, it doesn't seem to be like it just one thing of shit and the rest is good, so it's not that. It's just like, everything becomes- - Compounding, yeah. - You know what I mean? It's just like, everything becomes shit and it's sort of like, I don't know. It's just, I'm just in that weird mode. I mean, I was talking to Keith and I was saying to, when I was talking to him about it, and I guess, I don't know, I guess this is, I could say this. - And Keith is our wise sage, her pathology person. - Yes. - Yeah, he is the- - I usually go to Keith for these types of- - I mean, he's weird that he, when we come into Keith's house, he's like sitting Indian style with a robot and like, you know, welcome my children. Like, it's like, I don't know why I can't think of the- - Do that? - You know, what's the, Parks and Rec with Ron Swanson? - Yes. - We know the liberal Ron Swanson? - Yes, no, it was just, that was just the Eagleville Ron. Yeah, it's like, it's a man out of my office before I hit him. I will not fight back. - It's like, get out. - That's like, everything is groovy, man. - He's got the mustache and all, man. - Yeah. - So he reminds me of, he's all soft-smoking and like, you know. But then Keith tells us of his past and we're like, that can't be true. - That's right. - No, no, no. Anyway, I forget where I was going with that. - You're talking to Keith? - Oh, just, yeah, where was it, what was it gonna? Oh, no, yeah, yeah, I was talking to Keith about, I think because I think I might be like, I don't know if depressed is the right word because I don't like depressed. - I mean, I think there are levels of it, but somehow it's turned into a therapy session in the first five fucking minutes. Holy shit, do it, don't put pressure on me. Don't do it, it's not a good place. - I want you to understand where I'm coming from. - I understand. - Because over the past six months, it's just been one person dying through the other, you know? It's like there's no time to like, like, process it. 'Cause you're on to the next one. And now I've hit the wall. Does that make sense? - Yeah, 'cause now, now things have calmed down enough that you're like, it's the main thing of like, I've now stopped and everything is coming. Like it's just now, all the things that I've been behind me are now catching up, but it's like, yeah, I get it. And that's where you can totally get down trotting and stuff like that. And it's like, you need certain things to uplift you. I think Keith wanted us to kidnap you, put a blindfold on you and drop you off in a place until you're not allowed back till you find three reptiles. I said that was a little bit of an extreme, but I liked where he was going with it. So yeah, I hate to be the, I don't know, man. I guess I'm just an old school type of thing where you just like, compress your feelings. You know what I mean? - Listen, I get all good at it. - That's in McIntyre School with feelings. Boy, this is a beer. You drink it till it stops. - Yeah, that's not all right. All right. - It's not okay. - Yeah, so I mean, but the promise that you end up like my old man, where when you have three year old grandson standing in front of you and feeding pajamas, you're like, hello, you may call me the admiral. It's like, you never sound shit what you're talking about. - Yeah. - It's like a second time that could have seen you. - Well, like, yeah, the admiral. But yeah, I don't know. It just seems like I just can't get out of a, I'm in a funk, right? I'll get out of it. I know, well, I always do. So I'm not worried about that, but I mean, I think we have to just put you in a very large box. This is Hobbit on the side. Ship you to Australia and let you run around and then we'll be good. And like, I guess Scott, I'll just put you back in the box and then you'll come back. Yeah, it'll be good. Yeah, so anyway, that's my, I think the Grand Canyon trip would have rejuvenated you if it hadn't nearly killed you. So it's like, we went too far, it was like, you got the point and then it's like a crap. Like it's, we took it a step too far, too far. Back in, back in, okay. - I know I sent this video in one of our chats about the hike. - I never wanna see that video again. That was, no. And then you're like, and then I'm like, stop, stop. Stop sends me one on the side. That's like she's like the ledges and she's in. That's like a different angle. - The camera's pointing down and you see, and even I was short as daddy. Like, no, no, no, nope. - So yeah, I'm, you know, I'm trying to, I just, I had to go down to the, it's just, it's nonstop, man. - We have, we have 13 years of episodes. Shut up. - Yeah. - Like, it's fine. - I don't think, I don't think we've been late. I know that I haven't been in the Discord. I know I haven't been in the Patreon. I know I know all those things. - We'll fix that. We'll fix that if we wanna do a Patreon thing. Let's do a Patreon meetup for the Fourth of July. We'll do it on Friday, I have off. - Okay. - No, I have to work, but by the time I'm done work, you'll probably be waking up. So it will be good. - I mean, it depends on like, you're like, listen, I'm always at work. It's like, but we can figure something out. And I mean, it can always be Saturday. 'Cause like I said, I won't have much. So we can figure that out for the Patreon. - I guess it's a lot of like, - I'll get that, I'll get that plucky energetic kid that we keep around to do something. Yeah. - Yeah, right. - Yeah, by the way, he was on the Project Curp the Culture. - He was? - Yes, he did, he did pretty good. It was a good show. - I'm so proud. Don't tell him, I said. - Yeah, I don't remember him going in depth about like the, how he started and whatnot. But he, you know, every time you go on to the podcast, right, you tell a little more of your story, you know, like something just kind of retriggers and mirrors. - You wanna peel back a different layer. 'Cause if you do the same story on everything, it's like, I don't know why you're asking me again. - Right, so it's kind of like you learned something new about somebody that, you know, that you know so well. That's always a good thing. So, but anyway, it was good. You should check it out. There's-- - I came to that out. - The, there's another podcast to check out is it's called "The Idiot and the Expert." Or "The Expert and the Idiot." - You're right. - Can I talk about this one last week? - I think you did. - Yeah, I heard of it 'cause Matt was on it and he was talking about it. - Matt was on it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Nick was just on it. I guess, I went on it at some point, but-- - What is up with Nick and his beard? - Yeah. - It's gonna be you, I would. - Yeah, but he's got a little more gray in there and something like that. I don't know, I don't know what's going on there. - Yeah, yeah. - With hockey terms, he's a gray beard, but yeah. - You know, it's funny that one of the topics that Lucas and the guys we're talking about was what makes you go in a direction and not many people are sort of able to do multiple types of things. And like, I think it's the same thing that I always give you huge kudos for as far as like being able to juggle Colubrids, Python's bow is, you know, what makes me go in a different direction is that I'm pretty sure the only thing that's going on up here is the monkey in a jingle bell, like just kind of throwing it all over the place when it comes to like, why don't all cool, fun snake? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And you can tell, you know, I wonder too, like Lucas was talking about when he was working at East Bay, by very long, I wonder how much of those situations affect your horticulture, you know, like where you sort of like end up and you know, you can always change too, you know, you can start in one species and end up totally different. I mean, look at Keith, right? - Yeah, I think that stuff, I think being in a place where you're exposed to a shit ton of species quickly, will definitely kind of get you moving. But again, it's one of those, I think he's talked to us a few times where he's like, we had these at the Bavaria and I'm like, they're cool. And yeah, over here. And then later he goes, no, wait, they were really cool. And I never really got like, and also your interests change, you know? - Yeah, sure, yeah. - I've walked past Boa tables my entire career and been like, yeah, not carpets, kind of walking. And now I'm like, so like, I can get some more Boa. So like, I can do that, you know? It's not that I'm gonna dish Morelli any time soon, but I think in the next couple of weekends, I had that massive cage swapping thing. Solar panels are getting put on the house tomorrow. So yeah, so that's happening. But then like in a few weeks, I have three cages open. So now those animals shift here and these animals shift there and everything's all over the place. And then animals are moving from other bins to other stuff. And then buddy's coming over to pick up some animals that I'm sending over there because I just keep making him do my breeding for me. And I just reap the benefits. - Yeah, I'm quite upset up there. My career is, I'm turning into you more and more. It was just like, I don't feel like selling this. Take it, breed it, give me babies. - And then yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And, but yeah. And then I was, I was, I'm like, oh, you know what? We're done. The blonde hognos, laid its eggs. So we're done for the season. Run a rat snake, drop them like shit. - That's all that. - That was unexpected. It was one of those, I thought, and in the back of your brain, you're like, you know what, this is 100%. And then, but in the front of your brain, we're like, try to deny it now, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she ate, dude, like no, there's no chance in hell. And then she did meet. I'm like, yeah, but she's kind of flipped and flopped and this is her first season and all that other stuff. And I'm like, yeah, but that male will breed anything. Yeah, but this is a new girl, like, so. But yeah, if another rhino clutch happens, I'll be completely surprised. - But I will be honest, that's something that I am looking forward to this coming October. It's kind of like, well, that in the trip to Australia. - Let's say, yeah, what's to start breeding again? I'm kind of excited about that. You know, I think that's another thing that I'm kind of bummed about. I'm kind of like was really looking forward to doing something with diamonds, with that kind of all fucked up. And, you know, then the whole thing with like building the cages and all, that kind of got set back. And it's kind of like, I have so much, like, you know, there's so much to do in the house, let alone with the snakes. And then it's, you know, then the podcast and, you know. - There's a lot to do in a lot of other things. And the thing is that when you have a public portal where people can kind of see a little bit of a flash of what you got going on. - Yeah. - They're like, oh, obviously you think, no, no, no. You're getting a glimpse. And that's the best you got. - Yeah, yeah, it's kind of like, I quite honestly, probably at this point, if I wasn't doing NPR, I probably wouldn't even really be like online. You know what I mean? - You'd be the guy that has like, you'd be the guy that Matt talks about that appears out of nowhere and goes, I have to get rid of all these diamonds that are in my house. If someone wants to meet me in a parking lot, it's like, geez, what is this guy doing? - Which, which, which, that, that life is appealing. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Not that I, it's not anything against anything. It's just that like, you have the freedom, I guess, to come in and out as you please, when you're sort of like, not sort of, you know. - I mean, do it. - That weekly podcast, you can sort of just be like, I don't feel the feeling with it, you know? - Or I don't have the time. - There's a thing where it's like, I like going to shows and I like just not walking around. And I think we're still enough of a niche thing and we don't make it giant spectacle that if you and I were to just go to Tinley Park or to Daytona, certain people would recognize a certain people would come say hello, but there wouldn't be a full fledged stoppage of anything that was going on or say, which I would hate that. I do not want that at all. - Like snake discovery? - Oh yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, you know, there's, listen, nobody's paying to see us, okay? - No. - I wouldn't pay to see us. So, at a show, why would that, why would you waste your money? - Yeah, it's still though, it's still though, I think the last time we ended up going to Tinley, didn't we end up having to almost rent that a whole wing of a restaurant? 'Cause of all the people that came with us to dinner or something like that, so. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's cool. I like the, I love all the support and all that stuff, but I don't want to see my face on a banner or anything like that. - I guess too, like, I feel like sometimes there's so many reptile podcasts now that it's kind of like, how do we stand, like, not, I don't know. - It's not how do we stand out, but how do we? - Yeah, like, it's like I have to maybe rethink how we approach the show and like, you know, trying to come up with, you know, I don't know, I know. - Nipper's gonna get mad at me 'cause now I have you thinking about how to change the show and he doesn't want that. Like, he's now, I'm gonna get a nasty email from a Nipper now. - I kind of feel like we kind of like put the whole way that it's done kind of on the map, I guess. I don't, I'm not trying to tell them to go mystical or anything, but it's like what we were doing. And then we copied it off of the reptile radio people and it sort of like, you know, just, it worked. And like, you know, I think this is the other thing that bumps me on. I feel like we started so strong this season with having great episodes. Gavin, we had Dale talking about the eggs, you know, we had, we just had Justin talking about pigming pythons. You know, you know, we had, I said, Gavin, yeah, Gavin. And like, you know, I thought the I.J. Roundtable was great. You know, I loved all the conversation we had with about Condros and a couple of Condros shows. We had Buddy back on, you know. So yeah, I don't know, I just, I don't know. I think it's just the funk, man. You know, again, it'll pass. You know how we put through this from time to time. I understand the thing is that when you get out of the funk, you tend to come back stronger, stronger. Cause like, you remember, I was in that one riot, that big thing where I lost a couple of my animals and, you know, that was on the heels of me moving out here and out of here that was just shit with slugs. And you just feel like absolute crud. But then you rebuild, rejuvenate, decide different things. And that's probably where my Calibri kick started, is because I had open cages and I wanted something else. And it's like Mike Curtin, when he had all that stuff go on with his things and he lost a ton of animals, he came back stronger, but then he also added things like Argentine's and, you know, a couple of different La Assis projects and stuff like that, other things. So it's like that sometimes that's the shot in the ass you need is just to kind of weather a storm like that. - So, yeah, maybe it's a sense of like adding value to the community, I guess. Maybe that's like inside my thoughts. - I have no idea what value we've offered the community over these years. I have just rambling of two Philadelphia idiots. But yeah, whatever. - That's like, woulder, woulder, that's what it is. Yep. - I think like, I guess that's, I'm trying to think of how to put it into words. It's like when I said about like, there's so many reptile podcasts and that's sort of like what I'm searching for. Like, what are we, are we, are we? I mean, maybe some people will say that we are. I was thinking some type of value, you know? - Right, and I say that we kind of, you know, it's like in the reptile hobby, you can have your further legacy be a couple of things. One, you can come out with a brand new more fumutation pattern or whatever, and you can make sure that your name is stitched to it so that it will follow through the annals of history. Even then though, people might have no idea why the fuck it's there. Like, you know, how many generations that you're like, I don't know what MBB means. Like, it's like, okay. But you can do that, or, you know, you can contribute something like a new technology, or I kind of always felt that our main contribution, 'cause ain't nobody gonna come around knocking down a door for a McIntyre line animal. Like, they're nice, I like them. - But, you know, the car was a pretty nice, man. - They are, but it's maybe at some point, the interviews and stuff that we do can get looked back on and kind of be part of it. I know that there's the reptile library that Bob Ashley's doing down at his place. And part of me is like, can we just get our show, like, on audio files and just send them, and be like, Bob, just put 'em on a shelf or something. Like, make sure they're there. Like, make sure somebody somewhere can get to them if they wanna do it, and that kind of stuff, so. - I feel like when, I feel, I guess, another part of it, and then I guess this is another part of, like, doing a podcast, so people know, like, once you're committed to it and stuff, and you know this, and it's like, sort of like, when you commit to something, you feel, if you don't deliver on that commitment, you feel like you've let those people down, I guess, or, you know, it's kinda like, that kind of thing, and it's like, I don't like that. I don't like that, I guess, is what I'm saying. - But, you know, it's like, it bothers me. - And that just adds to probably, really, just standing from my home situation, not the meatory, not like that, but, you know, just like. (laughing) - The whole shit that my family's going through, you know. You know, and I didn't, I don't really have a mention this, but, you know, my nephew's been in a hospital for a month and a half, he hadn't moved for like 20 days, and like, they had him in a coma, and all, you know, so it's like, I'm watching kids, I'm not used to having fucking kids around here, man. - I don't have children, there's no reason I want children. - There's three girls here today, and I'm watching them by myself, and I was just like, what the hell? (laughing) - So, I'm prepared, it's been so long, since I watched my little sisters, what's going on? - So, how about them fillies? Good? No? No? Okay. - Shit. (laughing) - Thank God we have a pool. (laughing) - Well, yeah, it's on, it's there, it is, it's wet. - Yeah. (laughing) - But, yeah, I don't know, it's kind of those things, but, yeah, you know, I think about that. Like, I want, you know, I want our legacy to be a good thing, and a positive thing for her culture, so, holding to that standard and making sure that we're always trying to do, up the game, I don't know how you would say it, you know? - I think we just keep trying to, I mean, obviously do the greatest hits of what people would expect from us, but then if we want to add something new, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but... - Yeah, it's not even like, you know, I see some time, we went through it many times, where it's like, you want to change the... - You're not doing a goddamn magazine, will you just fucking drop a magazine at this point? - No, I mean, like adding in extra species and, you know, and doing things that are off of, of... - Plan, really? - Say or whatever, not even really, I think, like, to me, I sort of look as like a Python show, you know what I mean? I kind of look at that as, and that's why it works so well with, you know, the guys do the Colubrid one, the other guys do the Boa one, the little Python one, so it's kind of like, minus venomous, we pretty much got all the main ones that are in the hobby covered, you know? So, I don't know, I'm just rambling. - Yeah, that was a nice tanger that I took us on, or like a quick little thing of... - Sure, out of the sun. I will say, these, this is something that actually did make me feel quite good today. - I went into my mailbox just before a little while ago, started the show and whatnot, and in there was a copy of a book that I've been listening for for a long time. It's called The Biology and Management of the Diamond Python and Carpet Python by Richard Shine. And shout out to Marty for hooking that up. He actually even got it signed. - That's awesome. - So, it's just, I mean, when you just have people like that that just, you know, support you and all that, it was a highlight to a rather shitty day, so it was good to see that. But I've been looking for this thing for, I think, eight years. Jesus, really? - Yeah, you can't find it anywhere. - I mean, to be honest, I looked after you showed it to me and I'm like, nope, can't find it, so, yeah. - No. - But, you know, it's awesome, like, that, yeah, I guess maybe we do have some kind of reach or influence. - Some club, so hard, god damn it, you know. - So, but shout out to Marty for hooking that up. That was awesome. - That's cool. - Thank you so much. I can't wait to read it. - Yeah. - Yeah, maybe like, you need to read that while the kids are swimming in the pool. I'm like, ah, just joking me, Uncle Eric, yeah, great. Yes, fine, it's wonderful. - Diamond Python, Diamond Python. Listen, I gotta get through this so that I can breathe this year, right? - Yeah, I know, right? - Yeah, if I have this thing and I can't breathe after that, well, then I don't know, so, you know, but-- - But, yeah, no, that's cool, that is cool. - Yeah, I think it's kind of like, maybe just an accumulation of maybe all the papers that he's on-- - I'd say he's a region paper? - No, it's kind of like, it's kind of like, you know-- - A bunch of different ones. - Yeah, like, well, no, it's not even that. Like, this is just reproduction biology and it has a sectional mating, what they're doing in a while. A lot of it is taken from his papers and I think it was 1980-80, did those female reproductive cycle, you know, and even at the very end, it talks about management because that's more management in the field, research, and then it talks about even has a spot at the end for how you would keep them in captivity, so-- - Cool. - Yeah, it's pretty cool. When you guys go in October, he's gonna bring you back a crocodile skull and the Owen Pelley book, okay? - Yeah. - 'Cause like, that's how it's gonna go. I'm gonna send you with a list. Don't think I won't, so-- - Crocodile skull, Jackie. - Jackie. - Owen Pelley book, okay. - Good, okay. - When we go into, what, what, souvenirs? And we have to market souvenirs. - Are we-- - Just market souvenirs. - Just market souvenirs. - Yeah. - We didn't bowl. - Oh, God, Keith. (laughing) - Excuse me, sir. We're gonna have to take him home. - We're gonna need to take you in the back, you know? No, it's like, ah, shit. So, but yeah, a couple things. Yeah, Carpet Fest, I've been slacking on that too, but I will, is that why people think we're on hiatus? - I don't know. - 'Cause a garbage fest. - I don't know. It's probably even people that don't listen to the show. - I probably, and then I think, do we upload the last episode of Carpets and Coffee? - Yeah, I think so. - I didn't appear on my podcast app, so I don't know what was going on there, but-- - Oh, shit. - Well, that might be it too, where it's like, it's something not uploading, because now you're like, ah, you guys are not where you're supposed to be, but we are! You look like-- - Maybe that's the problem. Okay, all right, all right. Now have to look at that after the show. - I should really tell you these things when I-- - Yeah, you're like, you know, oh, okay. (laughing) - Why is it interesting? All right, I forgot to tell you, we've been sinking. Oh, so here's a funny story. I've been herping so much and traveling over the past couple of years with you guys, and me and Dory haven't really taken like an official, like vacation, so to speak, like we used to. So all of my traveling has been herping, or herp-related trips, right, and so we're in the car, and we're driving to the shore, and I'm the first, first I have some questions, like, you know, like when you're driving, I'm used to having-- - Please help me didn't start doing the just thing, where it's like, hey guys, what do you feel about? - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. She's sitting next to me, and like, you know, when you're in the driver's seat, herping, which by the way, I haven't drove in a herping trip in a long time, because between Justin's always driving, Phil, he always, like, the one trip we were on with him, he had, he run to the car-- - And the last time I drove in a trip, we were in Australia. - And then he drove the whole time, and it's just like, I mean, it's good, but at the same time, I feel like I'm not pulling my weight. But anyway, it was, you know, when I am driving, Rob's usually in the co-pilot seat, because he's got the directions, where we're going, whatever, that and that and that. - You think of Rob-- - Excellent co-pilot. - Reptile her-- - Excellent co-pilot. - Yes, oh, yeah. - He predicts the next moves you're gonna make, he's, you know, he's like, very old pointy, and if they're getting hungry, he was, I think we're gonna stop for some supper. - Oh, all right, that's exactly it, isn't it? - My wife, she wasn't the best co-pilot on the trip. (laughing) - She doesn't care. - And I said to her, which, it was a mistake. (laughing) You can imagine what I said, not in a mean way. But I was like, I said, "Man, you're really "sucking at being a co-pilot. "I need stone here to like get me to the shore." (laughing) Big mistake. - Yeah, that was probably worse than you could have said there. - Yeah. - Not because she was mad. She was just kind of like her feelings were hurt. And I was like, I don't know, maybe we're rusty at being pilot and co-pilot. - Yeah, maybe we can get a pilot, maybe the co-pilot? Like, what the heck, you know? But it was just weird, like traveling. And we just went to the shore. It wasn't like we went anything crazy. And like, I'm just so used to having like an itinerary. - That journey we're gonna be, you know what I mean? - What are we gonna do tomorrow? We're gonna get up and kind of feel how it feels like it goes. What? - Why don't we can't do that? (laughing) - What's the target species? We're going to the beach. - What time do we have to be there? What are we doing? How long can we get there? Where's the hike? What are we eating afterwards? (laughing) - That was the other thing that I noticed. Wait, this is great. This is how much Rob's influenced us, Neil, on our trips, is that we go all day without eating. And she's like, why are we gonna eat? Are you hungry? What's wrong? Like, I'm like, what do you mean? I was like, ah, yeah. See, usually when I'm traveling, I'm not eating it. - No, no, we just don't eat. I don't think about food until we're in the middle of a gas station, and Rob's like, listen, this is the only food you were gonna get, like, oh, god. - Yeah, yeah, so that was fun. (laughing) - Fun trip, it's fun. - Trip, yep. - Nah, she was funny about it, you know. - That's awesome. (laughing) - It's just weird how, yeah, it's been, God, we've been traveling since 2018. - Yeah. - And, I think the last, like real place, like, I mean, we've been places. But like, usually our vacation gets, has been eaten up by family stuff. - Family stuff, yeah. - Going to see family and stuff like that. So it's not like a, you know, not like a trip, you know? - Right, right, it's not been an enjoyable trip. It's been a trip. - Yes, yeah, it's just that. - Yeah, yeah, it just seems that way. But, I don't even know how we got on that trip. - Nah, I mean, we're, how are we doing this? We're not doing well. We're all over the place. We should talk about this somewhere. - I don't know. - Yeah, right. - Oh, I was talking about Carpetfest, so. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, I, tomorrow I have some free time before, after going to the hospital, but I will definitely get that all taken care of. I sort of have like the, I don't have a logo though. That's what I need. That's okay. - Okay, hold on, be back. - All right, so, do we, should we see what the intern's doing? Like, kids. - I suppose. - Can we do it with logos? - Do you do it with logos? He's good with things, he does things. I say ask him if he can find something or tweak something or do something, you know? - Well, we will get it together and we will have it. - 'Cause I want to get the shirts going. - Yes. - 'Cause we're in September, so I'd like to give everybody a month this way. And if anybody comes with a Carpetfest and says they didn't have time, I can smack them with a shirt. - Yeah. - Yeah, you know, and then there's also the Colubrid Fest. - Yeah. - What's going on? - Yeah. - I would love to go out and hang out. - I would like to go out there. - Yeah. - I don't, we'll have to see how that shapes out 'cause when is that? I think that's what, September too. - Yeah. - I think so, hold on. - Yeah. - Pull it up. - Pull it up. - I will warm the machine. - Go to the time machine and pull that up. Yeah. - Okay. - Their situation is more like an eye cast type of situation. - It is. - It is. - Show afterwards sort of where I sort of wanted to take Carpetfest, but. - But we got bogged down by all the insane things. There we go. - Well, they had a similar situation. I remember how difficult it was to try to find like a place. - Yeah. So, Calubridfest is September 27th through the 29th. - Yeah. - So, I would like to go 'cause I think I could go there and be like, "Hi, I have Calubridz." (laughing) - Yeah, you would be welcome with open arms. - I mean, yeah. - Me on the other hand, we'll be like, "Oh God." - Boy, do you bring the non-believer? - What? - It's like the Python guys here. Oh my God. - I gotta have to hear about the Python. (laughing) - He's cool. He's with me. - Yeah. - Yes, yeah. - But I like snakes, guys. Like, isn't that tail for something? - You're like, "You're a father, we go and be like, "You know, I keep my king's neck outside." And people are like, "Tell us more." (laughing) - Yeah. He keeps it the most unconventional way. - Unconventional way and it works. - And it's all as old as my brother. - Yeah, there you go. So I was doing something right. - Yeah. Well, in carpet Python news, I'm not gonna say what it is, 'cause I don't want people spamming Mr. Harris's mailbox, but he produced some really cool carpet pythons. One, we know what it is. I'm not gonna tell the people what it is. - No, no. - But I'm pretty excited that he produced it. So congrats to him. - Awesome. - Yeah. And then the other one that I thought was quite nice, which I was really glad to see that it looks way different than the Maclots looking, super zebra granite. But this also has hypo in it. - Yeah. Isn't that like, is this kind of what you always thought super zebra's would have been at without the granite? Like this is kind of like, I see where the granite pattern is setting the super zebra, but it's like, I always figured this would be what a super zebra would look like. - I love the eyes. - Yeah. - Yeah, they really make it pop. The gold, it's like gold, I guess. It's like a gold yellow and maybe going down the back sort of like what you're saying. It's sort of look like, I would imagine if it didn't have the hypo and that's making it yellow, or I guess that's pulling out the black too. - Yes, or it muted the other colors that would have been there for the, like making it that Maclots Python look kind of thing. - To where it almost looks pinkish. - Yeah. - Like the head, you can see it more. But you know, as you're going down, it just gets brighter and brighter yellow, which is really nice. - No, it's not. - It's really, and if you want to see what we're talking about, just go to UK Python's Facebook or Instagram, and you'll see it. - Now. - It's quite nice. So I'm glad to see, because I know for me anything I did super zebra wise, except once, they all died in the end, so. - I have yet to do super zebra. - Well, I think it's, I think you run into more problems with super zebra when you start combining other morphs into it. - Like super jag is really going to be messed up. - Yeah. - Oh, yeah, that makes sense. - Yeah. - That makes sense, yeah. - That's a terrible that goes in the ring Python category. (laughing) - To do the ring Python. But I mean, you did zebra jag before I did. Where my thing is I kind of like to piece it together and be like, here's a good jag, and then build up here's a good zebra combined. All right, rather than just together. But I mean, I like my zebra jags. I'm not going to vacate cages and turn my entire projects of caramel things. Or, you know, I can appreciate a zebra jag. I can appreciate a super zebra. They're gorgeous animals, they're awesome. I get more pumped about like a, I got more pumped about the M Pen caramel. (laughing) - Yeah, right? - The caramel zebra produced this year. - So good. - Which is why I am a coastal person, like it's, yeah. - I wonder, well, let me answer this question. Do you think that jags have sort of like really been knocked back a notch as far as just even their availability, not even so much even just like, you know, we don't know the whole, you know, the debate that's, should you do it, or should you not do it? - I haven't been here and done that. - Yeah, it's old. That's what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is, have people, you know, sort of, sort of said, it came to the same conclusion that I sort of come to is like, yeah, these are beautiful animals. Do I really want to do this? I don't know if I want to work with this or not. You know, I know you still work with some. - I do. I have... - No, curtain still works with some, right? - So it's weird because in some lights, I would say you're 100% correct, and jag has kind of taken a back burner to a lot of things. - Right. - Because other projects are out here that give people the satisfaction without having to deal with the, whew, and other crap like that. But I will say that a good looking jungle jag still stops everybody in there. - Oh my God, man. - You know, yeah, happens. - I mean, Martin just produced a clutch of gammas. - God. - I mean, gamma. - God. - Yes. - It's, you know, it's nuts. - The ultraviolet girl that I got from you is stunning. She's a bitch, but she's stunning. - Really? - It's like, it's weird because I have a couple jags, and I would say out of my jags, there is still a varied thing. So I had the ocelot jag that I got from you from UK Pythons, and she was a jag with a capital J, but I found a friend that's working on ocelot projects who wanted to take her. And then I have a tiger jag that I produced that she is very flighty, and because she's very flighty, she jags all the time. And then I have the red, the V jag from you. She's great. - Do you ever jags when I'm trying to put her away or put her someplace she doesn't want to go? - Yeah, V was not really that jag. - No, he was not. - No. - But then I also have the ultraviolet jag girl that doesn't show any jag to her, but she's also a heat-seeking missile. - Yeah. - So, rather than being jagged, she's put all her neurological problems into aggression. So, I have that, and then I also have jags that I'm raising up. I'm raising an examic caramel jag right now. I have caramel jags and super caramel jags and stuff like that. So, but I was saying there's definitely people that are kind of spacing away from it, but I also had no problem selling any of the jags that I produced the last couple of years. - Okay, that's a nice one to ask. - There are people that still want them, especially 'cause a good-looking caramel jag. - Dude, it's hard to beat it, man. - Yeah, and I had a male that was throwing some really nice colored babies for a while. He's the dad to the one I kept, the super caramel jag needle. So, but her siblings, a couple kids got away and have turned out phenomenal, like great color. And that's fun because in the next couple of years, I'm gonna start putting, all right. We're gonna peek behind the curtain for a little bit. - Ah, yes, yes. - Open the curtain. - There is, there is methods to my madness, so. And one of those methods is, I wanted to establish a really nice caramel and caramel stripe project. - Okay. - I'm gonna build onto my super caramel jag project. So, in the next couple of years, I'm going to start having these caramel tigers and these caramel stripes mix in with a lot of my caramel jags and caramel and super caramel jags. - It's gonna be incredible. - Yeah, so, the idea is to get kind of better caramel color. So, I have the really nice caramel color, but then there are other colors. Now, what if those other colors were M Pen colors, where it's like yellowish and other kinds of really nice colors that go with? It's like, okay. So, it goes back to the whole, if you add something really good to something really good, you're gonna get really good. So, this has been a round of pound, around the barn kind of way doing that. The other thing on the other side is that I've been creating my own examic tigers to produce, to cross with my, with the hypo tigers that we just produced. - Yeah. - You and I. - I would say, well, I didn't produce them. - I mean, you did what you do and you're like, take this, okay. (laughing) You don't have to tell me twice. It's that kind of thing where it's eventually, you'll take a really good looking, hypo tiger and cross it to a really good looking, he's anic tiger. - Right. - And we'll just make, like the idea is not to get like one or two, really good looking things, it's to get like a whole clutch of them or a good clutch. - Yeah. - So, that's it. Now the curtain is drawn again and none of you will ever know what's going on wherever, ever, ever, ever again. - Yeah, I think that's, I think that's, that's awesome. People should think that way when it comes to breeding projects, that's all you have. - It's worked for me. - I think it's worked for me. - It's worked for me. - Yeah. It's, so far that seems to be the method that I keep going with where I get something and then you kind of keep crossing it and see how you can go. 'Cause I mean, I was looking back at some of the, like my original caramel jags. There's nothing like, like the ugliest caramel jack that comes out of the egg over here still beats like it's grandfather by so much. - Oh, yeah, man. - It's like a night and freaking day. And it's like, all right, well, in the next couple of years, what else am I gonna be looking at? So, of course I do that. And then I'm like, you'll be fun. Boas, like it's like. (laughing) - Yeah, but a lot, some of your projects, you're just doing to breed them, right? And I'm not saying that you're gonna ditch 'em as soon as you breed 'em, but like, yeah, I know that there's some certain projects that you're like, you bred 'em a couple of times and you're just like, okay, is that. - Listen, I'm not gonna take the rainbow boa world by storm. I'm going to produce them, I'm going to sell them. And then I'm not even gonna hold any back. It's just gonna be like, cool, rainbow boa is there. I go, rainbow boa is like, that's whole thing. You don't build a project, so. - Yeah, whereas like your bread and butter, you're sort of like, you know. - Oh, I'll never get a harvest. - No. - Establishing a, you know, a strong army to sort of. - I listen, listen, you know, there's also, you know, you have to think that each project has my level of interest, okay? - Correct. - It's like, Carmel's like, we have to breed this to do this, to do that. It's like, the only thing for Rubscales, it's just the giant stamp on it that says small army. Like that's all I want, you know. - You have like, you know, it's like Cribo or Caranada. - Caranada? - Yeah, yeah, without a dash, that's win. - Not even starting that project, which is fun, because I never raised up one of my albinos that I produced. But I got one back from a friend of mine. - Okay. - Lost my female, and I had sold him a girl albino, so we did like a trade and stuff like that. So I got the girl back, and then I have a pos head baby boy. And it's cool to watch them go through the color change, 'cause I saw that happen with their parents, but this is an albino. It's like the girl changes. And the good thing about a Caranada is, it is probably, she's a teapause albino. And because she's a teapause, and because she's got all this color stuff going on, it's the closest you get to a albino carpet python. Like we're talking like all the different colors you get in a carpet python albino. The lavenders, all that other stuff. - Sure. - Gorgeous, beautiful animal. It's not just like, oh, it's white and yellow, like a berm. - Yeah, right, it's funny. You did, you brought up albino. So I'll segue into this one real quick, because royal reptiles. So this is the cool thing about, if you're into like Australian pythons, or really just Australian species in general. It's like here when we're in the, like when the eggs are hatching here, down on Australia, they're beginning to put pairs together and you know, all that kind of stuff. So it's like constantly seeing new things pop out. I've talked about these albinos before. I know they're muts and crosses and all that stuff, but when I put this picture up, come on, man. - Jesus. - Come on, man. Like, that looks like candy. (laughs) - So, all right, so, all right, so. - My guess is that this is a inland albino. And I think that the, the one that's like, so it's like this intense yellow and intense orange. And the orange is the pattern or the saddles of the carpet python, of a carpet python. So just imagine, so if you're not seeing this. - Well, is it an albino bread lie? - Well, I think the other one is an albino bread lie. - So we're breeding an albino. - Darwell. - And an albino inland. - Alright, now albino's bread lie. - Just get through it. Okay, we're breeding an albino bread lie to an albino inland cross, right? - So, so it'll have bread lie. - Darwell. - Baragata. - Baragata. - Inland. - And. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. - There's only three subspecies or one species and two subspecies. - There's only three subspecies. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Holy shit, man. Talk about selective breeding. - Yeah. - You know, again. - Well, I kind of, I like the idea of like, obviously seeing what happens, but see, my mind is I would try to get two mates that would play to both those animal strengths, 'cause I have no idea what those babies are gonna come out looking like. - Yeah, I don't know where the direction is with it because the other snake, which again, I'm just taking a guess, just the tail pattern, you're very banded. - Yeah. - The dot, the spotty dots at the top, like towards the neck and the one up. But just the pattern itself screams bread lie to me. Or bread lie cross. - Yeah. - Right? - Yeah. - 'Cause you got like this area here is like you usually see that in bread lie, right? - Yeah, you do. - The spots and stuff. And then down at the tail, it's- - It's all banded, yeah. - Yeah. - And it's hard to tell when you've taken away the color. (laughing) - Yeah, that too, right? - Yeah. - But the other part of it is, is that typically, do I have this right that the black becomes the white, right? In an albino? - Yeah, I think so. I mean, normally, normally the base color. - I don't know, we're in crazy territory here when we don't know shit. - We are. - Well, I get messages about colubrids. (laughing) - Normally the base color becomes the white, and then the pattern becomes that like orangey other color with or the yellow in that kind of thing, since. So, let's see. - Let's see. - That's weird. Those babies are gonna be all over the place. That'd be weird to kind of see. I don't even know. That's nuts. - Okay, look. What, how does albino affect black? - Find out what it is. - Pigment. - But, I don't know why anybody's not bred to albino in Bracotta. - Um, bop, bop, bop, bop, in the skin here. People with albinism have reduced or absent melanin in the tissue. - Yeah, black. - Right. - So that's what I'm saying. That's why I'm saying that there's white spots. - Maybe the dark were the black, yeah. - Or the darker, let's say. - Yeah. - It's not like they're solid black. - Right, right, right. - Yeah. - So. - Okay. - Either way they're interesting. - They're very, very pretty. - Yeah, man. - I would shit. - I would love those to have the orange and yellow one. (laughing) - Which, you know, and I know we've talked about this a couple times where it's like, maybe you just want a really pretty snake like that to set up and just kind of watch this yellow orange thing just, you know, chill and you don't have to necessarily breed it, so. - Yeah, Royal Reptile, they got a lot of cool stuff that they have going on down there. And people breed fish just to have for other people to put in their houses in giant-ass aquariums to let it be a very pretty fish that runs around, like. - Sure. - Yeah. - So, yeah, they do that, don't, I mean, we do that with dogs, right? - Yeah, well, yeah. - Yeah. (laughing) - Kind of do all that stuff. - Pre-trades that are detrimental to the dog. (laughing) - Stop being a, oh, he can't go outside, he'll die. What? No, he gets a dog. (laughing) - Oh, no, he can't breathe. - Oh. - He used to be a wolf. - Yeah. - He's been reduced to this. - Look at you freaking done. - A lump of cells and tissue that can't breathe. So, poor dog. - Oh, God. - Well, I was gonna ask, like, what's your have, well, let's ask that, have any of the hypo shed yet? - No. - No, okay. - Keep looking. - Damn it, because I sat there and I'm like, you look good, you look good, no, Owen. You're doing what you're not supposed to do. - Yes. (laughing) - Eric's sitting on my shoulder yelling at me. You told me not that way. (laughing) - So, and it's hard because they do come out red, which I was expecting and what we've been told, but-- - And the rest of the clutch did not? - I don't know, like, two or three animals did not. So, like, we got a lot of potential hypos out there. I think it's gonna be, again, a sliding scale, where it's like, this one's reddish, this one's fucking red. Like, this one's-- - Yes. - Oh, like that kind of a thing. And, of course, the really, really bright red ones are not the ones with the really nice stripes, because, of course-- - Of course. - Of course. - Up that sight was, no chance in hell, that was going to happen. - Yes. - So, like, I didn't even know why I was thinking it. - Oh, yeah. - But, there's two that look very, very promising. - Okay. - And, of course, they're a boy and a girl, so. - Okay. - The other ones are not slouches. They all look, one of them, one of them girl, was feisty as hell biting everything, and I'm like, "Good, good." - Yeah. - Like, it's just heavy. - Let the evil burn. - Let evil burn. - Let evil burn. - Let evil burn. - Yes, yes, yes, excellent. - So, I'm waiting. I set them all up because I had them together, and, but I really wanted to set them up in part to kind of get a better feel for them. So, I did that, so they're all separated. But, yeah, we're just waiting. It's weird, 'cause it almost feel like I'm not, 'cause it's July. So, normally, I at least have like one clutch carpets on the ground by now, carpets and feed trials. - Right. - And we haven't got there yet, and I'm like, "What the hell am I doing?" Like, it's, I have mad hollocks that I'm putting through feed trials, which I ended up hatching my second clutch without noticing. I went down there, I'm like, "Let's check on these eggs." And there were three babies running around, and I'm like, "They hatched!" Like, "Okay, good job." So, but, I mean, normally I'd be like, you kind of, you'd have the pace, you'd have the cycle, you'd have the, it's Sunday. And on Sundays, we pound our head against the wall, trying to give a nice, nice team. And I haven't got there yet, and it feels like the season's almost over, which, I know it's July. - Yeah. - So, we should be wrapping it up. Obviously, I'm feeding the adults heavy to get them ready. Everything's eating, the thing is, I didn't breed that much this year. So, it's not like, I don't have a female where I'm like, "You must feed, otherwise you will never." Everybody looks really good. Even the mother of the hypotaggers, I mean, she went back to back. She threw 10 eggs, but she didn't stop eating the entire time. Like, I separated them, fed them both, put them back together, and then they were breeding. So, she did not lose weight. She's a monster. - Yeah, she is a vicious killing machine. You know? - I got that snake from Zach, who got that snake from Ted, part of Ted, Ted, Ted, Ted. - Yeah, Ted Thompson, yeah. - Thompson, Thompson. - Yeah. - Oh, she's amazing. She's a fantastic mom. - Yeah. - And every single one, and she has produced some of the best babies out of any of my shit. And she's a great tiger, and, but she's a killer. - Yeah. - She's a monster, and she's getting next year off. So. - She was one of the, when she was in my collection, she was one of those animals that you didn't, you never held her. - Yeah, don't touch her. - Don't touch it. - Yeah. - You need to hook it. If she's looking at you, she'll go for the water. - Yeah. - Hands off. - Yeah. - She's venomous. - And it's weird because her daughter is coming back and she was the mom to the Exanic Tigers I produced last year. So her mom, her daughter is coming back 'cause her daughter was on loan and she's gonna breed with the hypo next year. - Okay. - So we'll have hypo's post-head Exanic. - Hypo's post-head, nice. - Yeah. - Okay. - Cool. That sounds awesome. I can't wait to see them. I can't wait to see what they look like. - Yeah. - Yeah, well, you gotta come get your, it can be your most. - See yours. (laughing) - I know. (laughing) - Yep. - So. - I was, maybe, maybe I can, maybe I can swing next week, but we'll look at it for sure. - All right. Yeah, I don't know where, I don't leave my prison. (laughing) - Yeah, I know. - This is where I am constantly. Yeah. - I'm here. - Yep. - Always. - Are you gonna, yes. God, I'll be around. Yes. (laughing) - Okay. I thought we would transition to, I saw this post and I don't know if I have all my thoughts together or not and I sort of asked you what you thought about it and thought maybe we could sort of begin the process of talking about it. - Right. - And it was basically, somebody posting up about eye naturalist is the worst thing to happen to herp conservation. If you post your herp finds on eye naturalist, you're actively contributing to the rapid decline of herp populations. Hmm. - All right. - Oh shit. - So. My thing about that is this is, this is like the whole, I don't tell people my herping spots because the ones I do, they'll devastate everything. And I can understand that in certain places where collection is legal or if you're going after a certain species that may be a little bit more on the protected side and stuff like that. But some people are, it's like fishing spots, you know? You assume that you're the only guy who knows it and if you tell people they're going to bring people and it's going to be that. And then one time you show up and there's more than six people there and you're like, someone's giving it up and it's all horrible. Like I get it, this was your spot but you're also not the only person on this planet who knows where that is. So I guess I would hope that places aren't being absolutely like stripped mind of reptiles because you posted it up on iNaturalist. I do know that certain places use that for research studies of where certain animals can be found and what populations. And I also know it's not just reptiles but also insects, birds, plants, anything can kind of be tossed up there. And I would also say that a lot of people on iNaturalist tend to disagree with you on your, what you posted 'cause I remember we had that thing with that monitor that Rob got into after Australia were a bunch of people from iNaturalist disagreed with like said that we faked it. It was like, well, what? So, I don't know. I would hope that's not true but I kind of, I guess I just don't see it. Like if I found a timber rattlesnake in PA and uploaded it to iNaturalist, I don't know if people would just start ripping timbers out of the spot where we go. And I kind of feel like that if somebody was trying to tick off timbers on their Herplist, maybe this is a play, like we use iNaturalist to find a lot of the shit that we look for, you know? - Yeah, well, I think, well, a couple of things. First, there's another app that I'm aware of, it's called HerpMapper. - Okay. - I think Mike Pingleton is involved with that somehow. I don't know if he owns it or started it or some way part owner of it, I'm not sure. But in those, they don't share locations. They just sort of share, it's from South, I don't even, like the US or it's from Australia or something like that, you know, so it's kind of obscured. I know on iNaturalist, they obscure the-- - Protect the species. - Well, I think, I want to say that I think that there's an option in there. See, I never really, so back in 2018, when we first started, when our first trip to Australia, Rob was sort of, you know, even back then, he was sort of like, you know, putting the itinerary together for the trips and whatnot. And I think the thinking was that, you know, you would kind of like look in these spots, but you know, it's not like it's not telling you the exact spot to where it's going to be. - Right. - Because they, so I'm not sure if you have that option or if it automatically does it. But I want to say that I think it automatically will do it. And then I think you can like, you can maybe even go a step further and like totally upset. You know what I mean? Like it's not putting it really in a spot per se. I kind of have the feeling that, you know, and again, I'm just thinking out loud, these are just thoughts that come to my head as we sort of having this conversation. But, you know, so wait, academics get the information, but normal people can't get the information. I think it's just like with anything, man, there's just, there's going to be somebody that comes along that that's not ethical. - Right, just going to be bad people that come around and use that. - There's bad people in everything, you know? And it's like, do you, like, I don't know. It's, will you lose people's interest if they're not able to go and herp? And, you know, we've been on trips since then and we've gone on at least two or three a year, which I guess since then, it's not a ton. Sometimes we went on more than four, you know? But I've only run into a situation once where I actively saw somebody taking animals to sell. - I know we were behind some people when we went to Texas. - Yes. - Like where we went and stayed, the guys said that other people were there collecting. - Yeah. - And I know we had to, we had to get permits and stuff like that to go through that kind of stuff. And if it's a, if you have to get a fishing license or a permit, I mean, they are monitoring it to a certain extent. But again, it's one of those things. - Yeah, I just would take any of your thinking or whatever. - Right. I mean, I would hope there would be some sort of land of management thing or species management done by Department of Ag or whatever, or the game commission in that state to monitor the health of the species. But again, you know, you're sitting here and it's like people are gonna find a way to get these animals regardless of what you do. And also just because I posted a picture of me finding a snake in that one spot, doesn't, how many times have we gone places where like this place? Sure, fucking fire bet. You're gonna be all the things show all that and just happens to be not the right night, you know? - Yeah, you have that too. Yeah, for sure, you know. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't want like pop native populations to be decimated of anything. But then I can't get the same time. You're just doing it anyway. - Right, I mean, you can conserve the animal all you want, but if the animal doesn't have an environment to be in, then guess what? - It doesn't matter, yeah. - And also like, these are not, we're not trudging through the jungle, finding a rare snake that no one's ever found before and then immediately posting its thing to eye natural. It's like all these things are known, all these areas are known. We're just having to find a hotspot, which might not necessarily be a hotspot. It just might be that there's two that keep getting spotted. - Yeah, I was gonna say, I kind of, I probably didn't finish this thought when I was saying it, but earlier when I was saying that Rob was sort of the one that was working with eye naturalist was because when we came back from Australia, there was no point in putting, like if there's five people on the trip, all five people don't put their, it could, it could mess it up in a way, you know what I mean? Because you're sort of saying that this animal is found five times in, I guess it's possible that it could be found five times by five different people. I guess that is very possible, but. - Yeah, but the problem is that, so you and I are hiking and there's a blackhead. And I take a picture in post, you take a picture in post and Rob takes a picture in post. Cool, as we're leaving, which happened, I think once or twice in Australia, another car full of herpes shows up. Like what do you have? Well, it's this, cool. So we leave and then this group of four, they each take a picture of the blackhead in post and then they leave. And as they're leaving, maybe somebody else pulls up or as after they go, the snake goes across the road a little bit and gets caught by somebody road cruising and they have a couple of people and they all post. All of a sudden now, there's 12 entries of blackheads on this one road. There's just one snake that got caught four times. Like it's, well, I think of just the idea of like, people being insane about like eye naturalists causing the worst thing for herb conservation. I think about motor vehicles as being. Oh my God, there's so many other things that are worse for herb conservation. Yeah. I mean, there's so far dead snakes. Yeah, the amount of dead snakes that I've seen on, you know, that's kind of the biggest bummer of herping is like, you know, that's kind of why I enjoy the hiking part of it because you're, you know, it's not like you're not going to find it, but the chances are you're probably going to find a snake. If you find a dead snake that probably died of natural causes or died in the water, you know what I mean? Like if it's not like it got hit by a car and, and smushed to then you, you know, you have to make the decision as a snake still alive. Now I'm the one that has to finish it. You know, it's just, it's just a terrible situation. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know, I, you know, I, I think, I think with that, I have to, I have to put a little more thought into, into the, into it. And we, like you said, like, first off, if you're hiking down a trail and you see a D.O.R., I have questions how the D.O.R. got there, who's driving their car on the hiking road, like a lot of that kind of stuff. So, but, you know, I have, we had an A-trucks that had been hit by a car that wasn't going to make it. We had to finish them off. That sucks, you know, and- It does, yeah. Because we actually like them. Right, I like to see them. I like to see them, I like to picture them, and I like to go off in their merry way. Like when we were driving the one time in Arizona, we kept seeing this coyote that kept crossing the street, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And we came back once and hit it had been hit and dead. And I hate seeing that. Like, you know, anything like that kind of stuff. So, there are so many other things. Roundups, you know, development, lack of habitat, lack of food, lack of all this other stuff. And it's like, just because somebody posts a picture 'cause they found it someplace, I don't think that there's so many other things that are on that. And also, I don't think, I mean, I don't think any of the things that we would have taken a picture of it posted. If you go looking for it, you're committing so many crimes to take that thing. Like, even in yours, like, I don't know where you went and I don't know what the state laws are where you went in Grand Canyon or something like that. But I think all those snakes are protected, right? Yes, yeah. - So a lot of those rattles things are protected, yeah. - Right, and it's like, I've climbed, I looked at your thing on Atos and I climbed down and I took it out of the, you took it, did you? That's not okay. Like, it's that kind of shit where it's like, I don't know. - Yeah, it's such a, you know, especially now with you look at YouTube, right? Being a part of what a young person is going to see coming into, you know, having a, you know, yeah, wanting to be involved with her up to culture, whether it be just interested in snakes in general or, you know, wanting to keep them or wanting to see them or whatever, and you're going to have these, there's quite a bit of, you know, channels that are devoted to going and finding animals, you know? And, I mean, like, but you can't say that that's not going to, like, somebody's gonna wanna do that. - Right. - And like, I mean, just think of us, just think of us, right? And how long did we do NPR and talk about going to Australia to find snakes? And then one of the main things that pushed us was because we both grew up watching shows where the Herpetologist is like, we're gonna go find this fucking thing. Here we are at this place, looking for it. Holy crap, here it is. Like, these spots are known. Like, it can't sit there and tell me, well, because of what people have done, everybody knows where all the alternatives are and they're grabbing them, but they were doing it before. - It's in their names. - Well, this isn't a sense of this. - Right, like, it's all there. - You know, I guess this person's argument would be if I'm playing the other side of it. Their argument would be that, yes, it's in their name and now everybody wants a, you know, snake from this specific locality. So they're gonna go out and find it by looking at eye naturalist and going and finding it and, you know, they're gonna take stuff out of the-- - How is that different than, like, all right, let's say you and I found an untouched cut in "alternal land" and we managed to find a great band that is different than all the other ones. - Okay. - And we post about it and we start breeding it and people love it. And of course, people are gonna go now to get this because of that and how many people do you think are looking at eye naturalist or just the fact that I said that this is a this "alterna." Like, yeah, I think we're gonna go. And also, like, just because you're one person who is protective over your herping spots, again, you're not the only person who managed to find this place. 'Cause Mike Curtin really got into herping. - Yeah. - And he had a couple of friends who were like, well, go to this place, go to that spot. You'll find some stuff here, you'll find some stuff there. And they gave him broad paint brushes of the areas. And then he went there and he found, like, little micro habitats, almost, like, pockets inside. And he's walking around and he's taking pictures and he's sending them to the friends that turned him onto these spots. And he's like, "This is freaking great." And they're like, "Oh, you found that." It's like, so you knew about it and you knew it was here. Like, and I understand maybe you didn't wanna, like, put the pin directly in, but you still, like, it was only a matter of time before he found it, basically. So what the hell is the point of not showing those kind of herping spots? - You know, this is sort of in the same vein of similar to the post, but I guess you really have to feel comfortable with the person that you would be sharing-- - Sharing these waves, right? So, like, you know, I mean, shit. I think about the times that we were doing podcasts about trip recaps and whatnot. And it's kind of like why I shied away from trying to do in like that big episode of like just the trip recap, because it just seemed like I'm always afraid I'm gonna say something wrong. And then like when I'm in the heat of the excitement of sharing what we did, it almost feels like we're not even, we're just sort of hanging out. You know what I'm saying? So it's easy to feel that you're just hanging out. And then you say the wrong thing. And then you're pissing people off. - And then rock your man. - You get messages and stuff and like, why did you do, you know, and then I have to go back and take it out or whatever. We're not posting the episode and not like it's ever happened crazy like that place is. - But the thing is, it's just something that I worry about. So it's just easier not to do it. - It is, but here's the thing. Whatever we did to get onto that spot, to get those animals, somebody else could do. - Sure. - We are not special. We did not somehow find a mystical island where these animals are. And we have the only key to this island. - I would say that in some of the situations that we've been, we've done things that have really pushed the limits of what we can do or somebody can do or I can do physically to where it's going to require an enormous amount of effort in order to find said species. - Yeah, you can look at it on a dot on the map, but like I promise you, those rattlesnakes that are sitting at the bottom of the Grand Canyon, the people that find them most of the time, I would think would be hikers that just sort of stomp on them and don't really want to be involved with them. I would say that there are the huge percentage of the people that find that snake. I would say that the die-hard herpers that we know and herp with would do that. But I don't think your average person that's going out to like look for snakes is going to go to that effort. - But that's the other shoe taken trip to Australia. I mean, you know what I mean? - That's the other part of it. - Or not everybody who posts a reptile online actualist is a herper who's finding it. Sometimes they're just birders who are like snake and then they figure out what it is. - That's true, yeah. - So you're sitting there like a yard. - Right, you can't just be like, yeah, it's no more. So it's, the thing is is that it, what I was saying is that if somebody wanted to find a pocket of a population of a certain species. - Yeah. - Just because they're not online naturalists doesn't mean they're going to stop. Anything that we did for research to find and get on a species, somebody else could do. - Yes, but I guess the argument would be - Is I naturally helping them? - Sure, I'm going to get easy for them. - Fine, but again, they don't just sit there. It's like, it's not like, here it is, there it is. You came to the magic spot. You've been awarded with the Owen Bailey Python. Like, no, it's, they move. They're not necessarily going to be there. And again, how many times did we get reports on my naturalist? Oh, look, I'll take a good, right there, of Owen Pelly Python, because birders were there and this snake is eating the bird that they're trying to look at. - I want to say the one, yeah, the one person was-- - A spider person who had to find it. - Yeah, yeah. - In the park and lot. And then there was, there was a birder who took pictures of it. - Yeah, there was a birder that took pictures of a think, I know, in Pelly eating a bird. - Right, so again, it's not just herpers that are on there. - Sure. - And just because we don't post it doesn't mean they're not getting posted. - I know a lot of scrub pythons and a lot of Indonesian pythons on that are, that end up on, on I-Nat are usually-- - It's an interesting deal. - I think most of the time I get hit the nail right on the head most of the time, it's being uploaded by somebody who's, I'm hiking, what the fuck is that? - And they're taking a picture, uploading it to INAGILES and INAGILES, like it's a patch nose. - Oh, okay. - Well, I think of the pine barons, the pine snakes and the pine barons, right? - Yeah. - Everybody thinks every single pine snake they find to the pine barons is a rattlesnake. - Right, well, no, I'm just saying from the aspect of like, when we first were gonna go on a trip to the pine barons, that was one that I kind of looked at because I actually live here by here. So it was kind of like, let me look at this and see, like if I see anything that pops out of somewhere, I know or I know where this is or whatever the case would be. And I remember seeing quite a few of them where snakes and people's backyards. - Well, I know some Herpers who-- - And how pissed were we that we're like trudging through the-- - I know, it's like the tins. - Like the tins. - And the figures and all the bugs and the-- - We don't find it, we don't find it, but it also depends on what's going on 'cause I remember you and I went to a place with Matt and stuff like that, and we walked all up and down that freaking place. - Yeah. - And then I went there with Curtain and Balen and Dan and Stacey, and we found like a black rat snake, a black racer, like it was like one right after the other after the other, and it's like, okay. So it's that, again, you just gotta be on it. And I know some people who I've sent pictures of animals that I've gone herping with friends and stuff, but that'd be like how we found an Eastern hog nose. Oh, you found this here? Yeah, I have never seen one there, and I've been there all the freaking time. Like I don't, just because it's there and you observe it, doesn't mean there's gonna be there next time. - How do you get people excited about nature if they can't-- - Share it, share it and see it. - Well, dude, there are some-- - You know what I mean? - There are some Herpers out there. There are some Herpers out there that will that will get pissed off if you take somebody to their herping spot and don't take them with you. - Oh, yeah. - And some of these people don't have driver's license and they require it. Like, oh, okay. So, and they take great offense to that. And it's like, well, dude, like, what do you want here? And also, it's like, these are the people also who are like, but tell me your spots. It's like, well, wait. I'm not allowed to do anything with like, to do anything with your spots without your permission, but you want my spots. It's like, I don't, I will tell anybody anything where I have found any irreptile at any point because you know what? Somebody had to tell me and approach me and take me and I found things that I would have never seen without that kind of help. And I feel like holding that, hiding that from somebody is a dick move. There you go. - Yeah, I would agree. I think, I think you have to be careful with who you do share it with, but you definitely-- - If they're holding a bunch of plastic bins and they're like, I'm like, go for snakes, hey? Like maybe, maybe don't tell them what's going on. - You know what comes in the back of their car. But I guess it's just weird for us because, you know, ain't nobody going out and collecting decays snakes, like in mass quantities. - Yes. - So, you know, it gives a shit about Eastern Gardener snakes. - Right, exactly. - Like, why would you do that? If somebody's like, I collected all the Gardener snakes. Why? Like, why would you do that? And also a lot of other snakes in our area, legality is a thing. Like, you know, if I hear somebody went up to the place where we went and captured a shit ton of timbers, I'm calling fish a game. I'm like, right. Yeah, I was like, okay, that's nice. Anyway, like, it's not something you do. - It sucks. It really sucks that this would be a spot where, 'cause I kind of, and I could be wrong. And if I'm wrong, I apologize about this. But I kind of get to feel that from the comments that I read, I didn't read them all, but I read some. And it seemed like a lot of them were sort of coming from, it should only be academic and da, da, da, da, da. But like, I feel like, I don't know, I feel like when it comes to academics, it's like, they want to keep this information, like even just, I don't know, you explained to me, like the idea of a paper, and I know you can get them on Google or Google Scholar, but I can't tell you how many times somebody has talked about a paper, and I try to get it, and I'm blocked by a paywall. And I'm not saying that somebody shouldn't be paid for their work and all that, and I get that and whatnot, but like at the same time, I think like, why are you even doing that? Like, it almost gives me that like, it's an elitist type of feel, and maybe I'm wrong, and maybe I'm just like, I'm- - Well, I mean, papers, like you said, research is done, and they are published, and sometimes in certain journals, things like that, so they want you to, there is that money aspect of it that's one of those like, would you like the Wall Street Journal? No, I just wanna read the article, no! Like, okay, fine, I'll go to a different website and find it there, but there's no different website. So I get that, I understand that, I feel like there should be a way to get the knowledge if you want it, and I guess in there thinking it is, you just gotta pay for it. - Well, here's the thing, I even pay for a subscription to academia, right? - Right, so I should be able to get things. - But there's things I still can't get. - Well, it's just because if they haven't made an agreement with them or anything like that, or if they don't wanna have their shit on that, which- - I suppose, but I just think, like, how is that information supposed to get to people? Like, if you want people to care about the environment, if you want people to care about snakes, you know, like, we talk this game about, you know, save the snakes, and nobody cares about them, and the good snake is a dead snake, and all this stuff, and like, I would think that if you're getting into academia to sort of, you know, - It just does. - To try to study snakes and try to, like, not make them the way they are, and what not. Like, look at Zach, you know? He's, to me, he's a perfect example of somebody that's, you know, has a good feel for both, like, feeling that the both of those worlds can coexist together. - Right, right. - Because ultimately, I think Zach just loves snakes, right? - Right. - I mean, you know, he's just super passionate about snakes, and like, he wants other people to understand what he, like, why is, he likes them so much. That's the Steve Irwin effect. It's the, you know, Mark O'Shea, you know, all of those people that we look to, to sort of tell us about what's going on in the environment, it's like, do you have to be a certain level in order to sort of, and then we, you know, herpeticulture sort of says, do your own research, then what's that? - But I can't. - Research is obscured, and, you know, I don't know. - Not that way. - And just, like, keep falling on thoughts and stuff, and whatnot. - Well, I also know that in some instances, the academic papers are in the school library, and that's like a thing where it's like, we have all these papers and stuff like that, and there's free sharing between different academic institutions, but it's like, it's kind of almost like, come here for our herpetology thing, and, you know, the cool shit we got in the library. I don't, I don't know. I wish it was a little bit more accessible, but, you know, again, I think observations in a whole, when you have more people out there making observations for a-- - That's citizen science, right? - Yes, exactly. Like, you know, that's how they track what coral reefs are dying is because people are submitting their pictures, and they can get a better understanding of what's going on. - I think you would want that information. - Right, and also it's like how they, it's also, I'm pretty sure how Penn State was kind of keeping track of what was going on with the spotted lantern flies in Pennsylvania is how many people were posting them on I-Nagilson being a fuck is this bug? Like, that kind of a thing. So I think that citizen science is definitely something that should be done. And again, there's always gonna be people that are gonna take advantage of things like this, you know? It's, and it's unfortunate, but I don't think that it should stop, and I don't think that you're necessarily gonna be able to make it stop. And okay, so three or four herpers now are gonna be like, I will never submit any her by fine to my natural. So okay, you're not the only person finding these animals out there. You're not. - Right. - So, okay. And you know what, you could send nasty ass emails to every single person who posts up a picture of a snake they found in your spot on public land. Like, I don't know what you want here. Again, it's like the people who, I'm pretty sure that has to be an app about fishing and shit like that, where it's like, I went to this place and I caught these fish at this time and this thing. And I guarantee you there are people who are pissed off about that, because you took my fishing hole. Like it's- - Right. - Again, you're not the only one, no matter what. Unless it's your property in your backyard and you don't let people on it. Even then. - Yeah. - Your neighbor's gonna post pictures. Like, I don't know what you want. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I, again, I think of all the people that we know that are in that world and I love them the death. So, you know, I think of Zach and Warren and Justin and, you know, Scott and Ty and, you know, probably leaving people out that I can't think of, but you know what I'm saying, like- - Lucas. - Yeah, Lucas. - Yeah, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - So I don't know, it just, it's sort of like, I get the feeling from, and again, this is just sort of the person that posted this. It's sort of like, well, it's okay for me, but the rest of you guys can go scratch type of thing. Like, unless you have a degree or unless you're this, then you don't, you're not deserving of that information. Maybe I'm reading into that wrong, but that sort of vibrates, for example. Take Copperheads, for example. - Right. - People are like, this is a secret spot that no one knows where we can go and we can find the Copperheads. There are signs that say, "Beware Snakes." Like, I mean, people know they're here. - Beware of Copperheads. - Right. - They're like, "Beware of Copperheads." - Copperheads. - I'm pretty sure people know they're fucking here. Like, it's like, it's like that. And that's the arrogance of it sometimes. It's, again, parts of herp the culture. It's such a huge freaking egos. Like, I feel really ill of this Copperhead. The signs do, the signs say it. - I think, yeah, I think that's one of the things that bumps me out a lot about the hobby as the egos that are involved sometimes. - Was it somebody was giving me shit over again? - Yeah, but somebody gave me shit about when I came back from the truth, Rob. We went to go look for the rattlesnakes. They're like, "You told the island." I'm like, there are signs everywhere that say, "Beware of rattlesnake." Like, "I don't, what do you want from me, dude?" Like, they're, like, as you're looking, they're like, "Welcome to Rattlesnake Island." - Well, this is a good point, right? If you go to any national park. They know what they are. - There's gonna be a store. And in that store, there's those little laminated pamphlet things that have all of the species of snakes that are held. - John Hines, in that area, John Hines Wildlife Refuge, near the airport in Philly. - Right, right. - You go in their central area and they have pictures of Copperheads that have been taken by people over the years in the place they're like as a warning of these fucking things exist here. Like, it's like, what am I, what are you gonna do here? So you're like, "Oh, don't tell people that." I'm like, "No." - Yeah. - Yeah, yeah, again, that's sort of why I don't do the recap show anymore for their trip, because it's sort of like, I guess like you'll get like what we found, but not to the level of detail that we've done in the past, which is kind of a bummer, because, you know, at the same time, it's sort of like, I like having those conversations in person. I think the bummer is, it's like a lot of times. It's, we're usually, yeah, me, look, I have this situation on our podcast here and I have this situation with my wife. We don't go on trips together, but we travel a lot. (laughing) So it's like-- - I'm gonna start doing the opposite. - I'm gonna start GPS pinning every animal we find and be in like that. - Oh, I can just take a picture of it. - Maybe, like, yeah. - That's the other thing, man. If you take a picture, right? And you're using your phone. - Yeah. - Can't automatically reverse engineer and finding the-- - Well, no, it automatically, it automatically pings it, 'cause now-- - Well, I know. But like, can't you get the info from your photo? - Yeah, right. - From, yeah, you can do that from the photo. - Yeah. - Right. - That's why you do it. - I mean, it's one step away, but you can get it. And I don't think you even need to go that far. It's like, I don't-- So then it becomes like, why even-- Like, it almost, it's like, there's so many deterrence from sharing that. Why even share it? - Because people want to see it, and I want people to know that this cool thing is out here, and I found it, and it didn't chase me down the path. It let me take its picture, and then it went on its way. And this is a fun thing that other people who are like, "Man, I have been dying to go here and find this," are encouraged to do it. Yes, that's why. Now, if one old curmudgeon who goes there, maybe every couple of years to see his rattlesnake, and that is his rattlesnake in this area, and you went over there and you took a picture of his rattlesnake, I don't know what to do for you, man. - Yeah. - Like, it wasn't years to begin with. And again, it's all public land. So just because you managed to find it, doesn't mean somebody else hasn't. And every person who sits there goes, "No one knows about this spot." You don't fucking know, 'cause there's a lot of people on this goddamn planet. So I don't-- - Yes, I would argue that the people that go to spots that like in Texas, there's a lot of private land, right? - There is, so like, if you know somebody and you go on to their property, that'd be a spot where it's like-- - That's a different thing, 'cause-- - Yeah, exactly, that may be a situation where it's like, and you're probably gonna be careful about sharing that type of stuff. You know what I mean? - 'Cause you don't want random people to show up on your friend's property, I would appreciate that if I was that guy. But yeah, it's-- - And if I were to push back on anything, I think I'm even guilty of this as well. It's like, you're so excited about the find. And what I've been trying to do is live in the moment with the people that I'm having that find with, rather than rushing to sort of... You know, like I might send Keith a picture or like you a picture, or in our group with me, you Keith, Matt, the people that are in our sort of circle that we know and trust and have no worries about sharing information like that. But like, sort of give an update to you, or like you're giving me an update on the trips that you went on and I didn't go to, you know what I mean? Like, "Hey, look what we found." You know, and you're like, "I hate you so much." And then I'm like, "I hate you so much." - Day two, and mosquitoes are worse. Rub, still on phone with Eric to try to get plane tickets. No rattlesnakes, morale low. Look, it's... (both laughing) - Oh, that was a perfect Korean cabin of that trip. I mean, that is probably the message I sent. Like, probably word for work. - Yeah. - But yeah, I'm trying to live in that moment and not necessarily worry about that thing on social media. - Right. - Because I wanna hear the idea of both boosted. - Like listening to, I ended up listening to an episode of Venom Exchange. - Okay. - Snipper lied to me and said he was gonna talk about my hognose bite. And then I listened to a whole episode of Venom Exchange Radio. - They got you. - It wasn't happening at all. Never lied to me. - They got you. - Yeah. Feel dirty. But anyway, it was so... But, you know, Phil was talking about looking for stuff and that he wants to go out and find these things and he wants to do that. And I think a guy like Phil is somebody you'd want to... How about you want to... Like, here's my spots, here are your things. And I don't want somebody who's maybe two steps behind Phil, who's maybe not somebody that we know really well, but still has the same kind of passion to miss out on something just because they don't want to speak up or they're a little afraid or, you know, they don't have a big group to go with or they don't really know what they're doing. So it's like, these are things that people deserve to find and deserve to see. And just because... - You're gonna wanna deserve it. - Right. - But kissing ass to the one dude who finds himself as the protector of the species doesn't mean that you should not be able to find it. - You said it better than I did, but yes. - I did. (laughing) - Yes, yes, exactly. That's sort of... - It's been my relationship, yeah. - It's just coming. - Yeah, I ramble it, you deframble it. I just kind of be like, "Good, we can take what you said, sharpen it and throw it." - Yeah, exactly. I just throw shit at the wall. Whatever sticks, no one takes it all. (laughing) - It makes it work. Yeah, I don't know. So, an interesting topic. I think it would make a good reptile flight club episode since Rob and Justin are our... - Don't do that to love. We're gonna get emails from Justin. - Yeah. - You're like, "I want you guys on to fight." No, no, we do enough on our own podcast of that. - I don't know if I'm like, I feel like we're talking about this obviously, but you know, and I've done a lot of herping and whatnot, but I don't know, I feel like this is a thing where I have to talk to get some different perspectives and different thoughts and stuff until I would formulate it or whatever, but I don't think I would be able to argue it on a fight club unless I argue the other side and be the... - You're the easy side. - Yeah, well it's... And then there's the whole thing of like, I've been going to this place for years and people keep posting on unnaturalists and now I can't find snake X. - Yeah. - Okay, does there anything to do with the fact that half of it just now paved? Like I don't know if like there's other things that could be back here. - I gotta be honest with you, man. When we were in central Florida, you know, out in the pine area there, it was sort of like we witnessed and saw them just fricking dismantling the forest. You know what I mean? There was just like cutting the fucking trees down and then it's gonna be a new shopping mall or whatever it would be. And it's just like, I never saw it in a way like that to where it impacted me to say, so this is what they're fucking talking about. You know what I mean? - You remember the spot we go to for the timbers? It's a logging trail. That's how you get up there. And every time we go, they've cut down a different section because it's a logging trail. That's how you get up there because they're logging. (laughing) I don't, yeah, it's, yeah. So I don't know, it's how much longer that spot's gonna be there because eventually they'll go around that other ridge, but maybe they won't. Maybe that's why it's theirs 'cause they're clearing everything over there and all this other stuff. - So Dora used to live in South Jersey, right? And she used to live in Williamstown. So we were driving to the shore the other day. The whole thing was that her mom came up and she wanted to go to Wildwood, which I fucking hate Wildwood. (laughing) - I had to go, you know. - Angry Philly part, like, well, yeah. Listen, New Jersey is nothing but our beaches and I will die on that hill. But I was never a Wildwood kid. We always went to Ocean City. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't get to pick on this trip. (laughing) I go where I'm told. - Yeah, yeah, as you should. Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, so you know, yeah, you now know. - Yes, I do. (laughing) - Indeed. - But the thing was, is that as we were driving, she kept saying the whole ride down, like, I can't believe how much this has changed. I can't believe how much this has changed. And I'm like, so I said to her, I'm like, so what has changed? And she said, this, she's still all be forest. Now it's all, yeah, farmland and forest and, you know, and now it's just all malls. - Yeah. - This is all retail, retail. - What is it? - The, the, the, the Morgantown, Morgantown, where Dad used to work. Like, we're the reptile show is now. - Right. - There are parts of it. So this one giant farm thing became a Walmart Plaza. And then across the road from it became a Starbucks in the Plaza. And then there was an air, a small airport where you could take tiny planes and gliders up. That's been sold as getting turned into cul-de-sacs. I mean, that's happening all over the freaking place. - Right. - And now they're talking about expanding Amtrak lines to Reading from, you know, Harrisburg in New York. And they're talking about having regional rail lines that go from Reading to Philadelphia. So it's like more and more and more. You're gonna see that kind of stuff happening. - Sure. - And of course, having that impact is going to be crucial. And it's a lot of times some of these little sweet spots are right off the beaten path of already developed places. So again, to think that you're the only one who knows about it where it is when it's like three feet away from a park. Like I don't. - Yeah. - Or yeah, it's like, oh, yeah. The biggest outdoor sports store is like, I can see it from here. Like it's that kind of thing. - Yeah. - So 100%. - I don't know. - Well. - I'm just gonna go back to GPS tagging every animal that I find. I'm gonna carry around a small cattle brand of like the rogue flag logo. I'll be like, I found this rattlesnake. There we go. (laughing) - Yeah. - Yeah, exactly. I think, wait, you had something about ring pythons you wanna talk about before we. - Yeah, there was a guy I was following on Instagram whose name escaped me now. - Pythons by Mark Miles. - Yes. He had a clutch of ring pythons that a couple of days ago and they're gorgeous. Look at them. - Yeah. - They are cool, man. - I know. - They are really cool. - I feel like they're really cool. - They're slowly becoming my next whale, which we're going, like, well, we gotta get the ring python project going. It's like, mmm. - I could see, I could see that. - Well, I have the girl from you, which thank you for that, Psycho. But it's like, I don't wanna get a male for her. She'll kill him, she will kill him. He needs to be a big boy, or I'm worthy for his safety. And then I have that giant female that has killed several males that I sent to Ryan that did not die and did not kill anybody. So maybe potentially Ryan will produce some this year and I'll have a half a clutch of rings. And then what I would probably do is just pick out some babies for myself to raise. - Gotcha, okay. - Yeah. - Use that girl to produce some for myself. And then if Ryan breeds her again, get some more babies to sell, but as I'm raising up my other ones, but that'd be cool to do. - Yeah. Yeah, definitely, I wanna say, I understand why some people don't like them or whatever, because of the whole thing. - They change color 'cause they're like, they're not bright orange. - They're not bright orange. - Yeah, that whole thing. - But I don't know, man. I kinda like what they look like as adults that we are. - When they get, the female I got from you has more of a reddish orange to her. And then the black. And there's a ton of iridescence on her. And she's absolutely gorgeous. - Yeah. - There you go, yep. Oh, it's eating a zebra jack. - Carpet by then, a zebra jack. - Oh, no, it's a caramel, no, a granite jack, god damn. Yeah, it is eating a carpet by then. - No, that's a zebra jack. - Is it a zebra jack? - Yeah, you were right. - Are we sure? - Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah, that's a zebra jack. - Is it alive? - No, it was canned and dead. - Oh, god. Yeah, yeah. - It doesn't, like it looks kind of moving. But all right, no. - No, no, no, no. Yeah, I've made sure in the post that- - Thank god. - Yeah, it said that there's a king thin. - See, and now if you have a snake eater, do you feed it snakes? - I don't know, man. That's a good question. - 'Cause you know, if you take the plants and sort of get that thing going in their head. - I don't want to have a taste for it. - I want you to have a peanut butter cup. You have the taste for a peanut butter cup. Then you'll do anything for a peanut butter cup. - I'm gonna put you in a room with peanut butter cups. You ate the peanut butter cups today. - Yes, right? - Yeah. - That's what they're fearful, right? No, you're supposed to be happy and not hurt that peanut butter cup. I don't know the difference. It's like it's- - I think though that I think, you know, I don't know, I think I want to hurt. I want to, I can't remember where I heard this or who was talking about it or whatever, but the idea that yes, they would eat snakes, but the idea that when they are in the mode of breeding, that they would not. So to me, it would make sense that there would be some kind of trigger- - Trigger, okay. - Somewhere to sort of say, like if these hormones start going crazy, it's sort of like you lose your appetite. You know what I mean? I don't know what exactly it would be, but I'm just thinking there has to be something that it can't be that every ring python just like- - Oh, you're a snake, I'm going to eat you. - You know? - I would agree. - We're supposed to be. (laughing) - I would agree, but- - Captain James' things, yes. - Right, but- - I as the food monkey. - Yes. - And I see that or am I just taking my best guess? Like I'm not going to walk in the room and be like, "Ah, ring pheromones, that'd be insane." - Well, no, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it. - All I can do is go off of what I'm seeing, and if the female is acting a certain way and I put him in there, for all I know, she's like, "Yeah, all right, whatever, now, "you know what, screw you, it's on." Like, I don't- - But do you think that, I guess what I was getting at is perhaps those snakes are not in that breeding time. We just think it's their breeding time. So like, especially with a lot of these Indonesian species, I would say, would fall into the same thing. You've seen activity that could do that route, you know, where they attack each other and just like that. - Kill each other, yeah. - Kill each other and all that kind of stuff. So like, if you're killing that animal to eat it, is it because you're in the mode of like, "Oh, we're not breeding," and the snake is way smaller than I am, so I'm going to eat it. - I'm going to take a shot. I would say certain species, like white lips, a lot of the time it's an accidental strike. - Sure. - I'm queued in, I want food, something moved in. - Right. - Rings and Avadora, it's like, that's smaller, get over here. - Yeah. - And I think that just sometimes, it's like we go through the cycling and we put everything down, everything cools, everything goes the way we should. And we see signs that could lead us to believe that they are in breeding mode, but what if we miss something, or what if the male gets in there and he's nervous, so he's jerking all around movement, and that triggers a response out of the female. - I think those are just the dice you roll with that type of piece. - It is, I think. - I think it's 100% that. - Yeah. - And I think if you ever escape that. - Yeah, yeah, you're always going to be worried about it for sure. - Okay. - But like, think about it, how do they breed kinks? (clears throat) Same way, you think that you cycle it down and you feed everybody. You see, when I keep the thing, cycle everybody down, and then I feed everybody, and then I introduce whenever he's got a full belly, 'cause there's no chance you think that there is food happening here, but I don't feed and then introduce the same day, 'cause that is suicide. 'Cause you're right, everybody's in that feed mode, everybody's switched on, they're gonna bite everything that comes in the cage. But the next day, everybody's got a full belly, everybody's kind of relaxing, and then you can introduce a male or a female. The other thing is, you can also attempt to add the shed of the male or the female to the other cage. Get the smell in there. - So they get used to it? - Right, you want to see a male get distracted for a day. Put the shed skin of a female or another male rival during breeding season in his cage. He will do nothing else for the rest of the day, but stare at it. - Right. - Flick is tongue at it. - I wonder if, you know, so like with King Snakes, I guess my pushback would be that we're, you know, anything that we're breeding more than likely has the same, you could argue that it's not from the same spot, whether it be from the desert, and we're living on the East Coast or, you know, you know, whatever. - Well, we're in the same hemisphere. We're experiencing the same seasons, although some areas may be different than others. Yes, I understand that or whatever, but I would think it would be easier to sort of get them in that mode of breeding than say an Indonesian species to where we're not from, right? So like, let's just say that you have, I don't know, what's a coastal milk snake or whatever, - Okay. - Right from where we're at, right? - Right. They're gonna follow whatever season we got going on. You know what I mean? So it's like even if you would question that, if you would like, if you go herping at all or you see any wild snakes, you're gonna start to see snakes on the move at a certain time of the year. Like I think that like a lot of the times where we got punked at Carpetfest is because we're doing it in August or June when it's hot. - How does hell? - And we're not seeing snakes in those timeframes. We're seeing snakes in April, May, September, October. - Right. - You might see a snake June, July or August. - But you gotta beat out of the gas crack at dawn. - Put the chances of gas crack at dawn. - Yeah. - And you're gonna be there before it gets too hot. - Right, yeah. - Right. So when we're talking about a species that's from Indonesia, especially where they're from, how many people have been to where they're from, to actually be able to be boots on the ground and say, oh, you know, this is what's going on. And be there for an extended amount of time to sort of know what those seasons are like. So like sometimes I wonder, you know, just listening to Ryan and like how he approaches breeding a lot of those Indonesian species seems like he's sort of, you know, he has a certain window that would be opposite from what we would breed as Australian species. Am I wrong? - I mean, to a certain extent. - To a certain extent. Like I think that the Aussie and Indo breeding seasons overlap. - Yes. - And you kind of like, you can kind of get it to the point where the spheres are really close and you can kind of cram your entire species into that one long stretch. - Right. - Because I've had. - I guess the inner summer, right? - Right, well, I've had Aussie animals lay and then Indo species lay and then have Aussie species lay and then have Indo species lay. - Right. - And then have an Aussie species like I've had it scatter all over. - You also have, you know, like for instance, with white lips, how many years did you keep white lips before you bred them? - 10. - Like 10, 10. - 10 years. - So 10 years. So it's a long time that you've been doing the same process to where it gets into their brain that this is how it works where we used to be here and now we're here and this is how it works. And I think that acclimation that they've gotten to your spot has to do with a lot of you as a keeper following those same. - Right. And I'm gonna start hedging my bets. - Okay. - So I wanted to give them one more year but I have a trio of captive born and breds two of which I produce, one of which Ryan produced. - Right. - And I'm gonna start putting them through the same cycling that the parents get. - Okay. - Year after year, they're gonna get the same temps and all that stuff. So it might take them longer to grow and develop - Well, this is cause they're not getting fed the whole time but exactly, I don't give a shit. They're not going anywhere. - No, that's a little tear coming down. - Exactly. - No, like. But how will you produce them? - No, I don't get them. - I don't really give a shit. So the idea is that when they do come of age. - Yes. - This is just another season and it just happens to be the girls will ovulate. - See, this is my thinking. I know a lot of people like push back on me on this and this is my thinking of how I approached keeping babies. Like I don't really feed them in the timeframe that I feed. And yeah, you know, they go through the cycle just like the rest of them go through the cycle but I would, I'm gonna hedge my bets like you that over time that's gonna pay off for me because they're going to be acclimated to my room. Now if I sent them to Rob that may be a different situation. - Right, right. - They take him long, you know, five years reset. Here we go, it may take them five years to get them dialed in. Some species easier, some species harder. - Some are 'cause I mean, I've never put carpets down for cycling until it's a breeding season. And I never had a problem. They all grow, they all do their things. But I wanna get other things that are maybe not as willing to breed like or not prepared enough. I start getting them going through it and I get their clocks to time in with the cycles and stuff like that. You know, it took me a while to figure out olive pythons because I was being like, you go in carpet python box. It's like, no, no, we need a new box. Like it is olive python box. So it's, it's that kind of stuff where it's like, I wanna break it up. So I think white lips need that. They need to drop, they need to think 'cause I wanna get them going 'cause I want those three animals when they are adult size to know that this is when things cool down. And this is when the female starts ovulating. I basically want them to be like carpet pythons. But I think they need more training wheels than a carpet I thought. I think they need to be locked in and I wanna lock them in from a young age 'cause people are like Ryan produces all the time. But these are animals he's raised at this point, some of them. Like yeah, just 'cause he's had so many successful seasons. So these animals know nothing more than what he's plugged into. And I think that's the best bet. Like dude, if I get team horses here, you think I'm giving a team more pythons? Like I'm keeping a trio of them back, you know? Why? 'Cause I'm gonna raise them and I'm gonna put them through the ringer of carpet python breeding temps. - I think that's what you have to do. - Well, then like two years old, yeah. - Yeah, I think that's what you have to do in terms of, you know, if you're trying to establish a species that's not necessarily established that well, you know, to where it's produced like say a ball python, a carpet python, a retick or, you know, the mainstream type of pythons that you sort of have to do those things. You sort of have to hold back and make better. It's sort of like when we're talking to Justin about antiregia, right? You know, one of the questions that are brought up is like as you're doing this and you're seeing multiple generations or you noticing that they're taking, you know, rodents quicker than say, you know, like, you know, he talked about the wheat belts and now they were a little bit trickier, probably because it's the same experience I had with the Darwin carpets. They're so close to, there's not a lot of generations happening. So they're closer to a wild animal than, you know, say what we, you know, the end pen coastal carpets that is, you know what I mean? - Yeah, like they haven't seen the wild in like 20 years. - Yeah, it's like 20 gens. - We don't want to go back there. - No, hell, we can't spend every week and I live in this, there's no predator. I also think that some wild caught animals go a different way. So right now just, I'm just gonna stick with gold white lips because it's easiest one to explain. I have a trio of adults. - Okay. - I have a captive born and bred adult male. He's the father of all the babies that I have. I have a wild caught female that's proven. She's the mom. And then I have a wild caught female that I got from Jason. - Okay. - So the issue is across the board, everything one of them is different. The cats are born and bred male can get a little feisty, but usually it's pretty good once you hook them out. The wild caught proven female is good in cage, but if you put your hands on her or try to hook her out, she freaks out and tries to bite you. - Okay. - So the female, the last female will bite everything in anything that walks by her cage. She's constantly hitting the glass. So out of those three, you have all those different personalities and stuff like that. And I think the reason that the one female actually bred is because she's so chill in the cage. She's like, I don't care, leave me alone. It's fine. The other female is so high strung, I'm concerned that she'll ever breed because she just freaks out over all this other stuff. That, and then you look at their babies. So we have the trio. We have the two that I produced and we have the one that Ryan produced. The two that I produced are flighty nippy, but only ever about the side, like what you would see with a carpet python. They're not really that mad. They'll, as long as they know it's not food, they're pretty chill in hand. They won't bite you in hand. The one from Ryan is a psychopath. (laughing) But she's an F1. So it's like, these guys, my two, technically, because their father is an F1, are F2s. - Right. - So it's just kind of like, I don't know, but it's across the board. See how it goes. - I wonder about those species too. Is there a compatibility issue there? Is there-- - I think a larger male, the problem is I think the male needs to be big, but not fat. So he needs to be large and kind of thin and able to move around. He needs to be muscular. And the female needs to be smaller than him because then he take no shit. Like it is that kind of thing. So a female's five to six foot male. My boy is like seven feet, but he's only like, he'll eat a, I'll give him a large rat ever once in a while, but most of the time I'm feeding him quail, other bird, stuff like that. He came to me, he was huge. - Right. - And he showed up and I thinned him down. I think that's what you gotta do. I think the problem is just you need a big male and he needs to not be a fat slug but it's just in the corner. - Right. - Yeah, yeah, I think the, I just wanted to circle back real quick with the whole thing about keeping babies a certain way. I think the difficulty with that whole situation is, there's not a lot of studies done on baby snakes. They're hard to find, you know. And if they're going down to a cooling period and they're saying going down into a ground or in a den or whatever it would be where the temperature is more stable, are they... - Well then eating at that point, if something comes along, is like nobody really knows, right? I mean, it'll be kind of-- - Maybe then it's not, maybe I don't do what I do with the adults. Maybe I don't drop them down to a low temp and raise them up during the day and make them go cooler and stuff like that. Maybe I pick a degree a couple steps down. So they're hotspots than one of them. - So they're getting some type of cooling period. - And again, they get a couple of degrees down. And I sit them at that and then I just don't feed. So then it's like food has just become scarce. Maybe that's how you cycle them into it. - And the thing about temperatures, wouldn't it be that a smaller snake would lose heat faster than a larger snake? - But I think a smaller snake would be able to find a spot to keep warm better than a larger snake. - But I guess what I'm saying with the approach I'm thinking of, is it wise to sort of have that and not have that animal have access to a warmer spot. So meaning that, yes, you want, like if there's a way how can you, to your point, right? You're sort of like you're bringing it down but like while all the other diamonds are sitting at 50 degrees with no hotspots, say, right? If you had baby diamonds in the same room or say a yearling diamond in the same room, perhaps you want to either a leave a hotspot or a little more, provide a hide box that has better insulation. So if it did go out in basket, get into that spot and sort of, you know, retain heat that way. - No, let's do it this way. So let's say normal temps throughout the year, 84, 85 degree hotspot and then the temperature in the room is whatever, the other temp in the cage is whatever the temp of the room is, which during summertime, what, like maybe 80s, 70s, like the whatever, nothing bad. So winter comes and you start cooling down the adults. So which means they still get that 84 degree hotspot but you drop the nighttime temps to lower and lower and lower to get to that magic spot you want to get to. So they have the daytime temps but they also have the night drop temps. Maybe the babies, 'cause I do this with all my animals is like the temps start dropping and then a certain species stops here. Like it's like we start dropping carpets no further. Bread lie, you're gonna keep going. And it's like olives and bread lie keep going, stop here. Bread lie keep going, like it's that kind of thing. So maybe the diamonds is like, diamonds. - Yeah. - Throw it down that way. But let's say babies, you start doing it and then you stop here where there's no real danger for them as far as maybe temp stuff. Maybe it's a little uncomfortable but they still have the hotspot that comes on during the day. And then again, you just turn off food. So they're getting a little taste of the winter as far as the temperatures but they do still have access to the heat. - See to me, let's just say for sake of argument you're keeping it an extra terror, right? - Okay. - And let's say that you have one of those heat pads that you put on the cage, right? And let's say that you have diamond pythons in that cage and you're sort of, you have the hotspot going, the hotspots, 90 degrees or whatever but down in the corner of the cage, you have it to where you could maintain the temperature, say at like to your point, the rest of the diamonds are going down to 50 but this animal is going to have access to a spot where it could get to 70 degrees. It's not gonna like, yeah, where it's at in the cage it may be other spots where it is 50 degrees. So they do have access to that. However, in this one area, whether it be the hide or it be, you know, underneath something that provides. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, some kind of thing. So that if it wanted to and if it became too uncomfortable it could get to that spot because my feeling would be that if it's going into a crack or a cave or, you know, a tree hollow or whatever it would be trying to sort of, you know, survive through those cold periods that it's going to take advantage of those microclimates. - Right. - And although outside it's 50 degrees and... - It's gonna stay in its happy little tree where it's only 70 degrees, right? - Right. - Which is that, that's my thinking. - Which happens a lot with these animals, right? Because we say, oh, you go out to the desert, it's 120 degrees. - Yeah, but not in the crack and the rock that's like 60 degrees. Yeah, right. So, and now it's my thinking as far as like controlling cages and racks and stuff like that is that you kind of give them that habitat or that place to hide in. It's almost like you're simulating it. It's like, yes, it's going to get cooler, but then it will get warmer because you found a spot to hide or the sun came out or something like that. So it is taking care of you. That kind of idea, I think that would be how I would approach it. - This is why I like the paper towel rolls as a hide. - Yeah. - Because when you put it in and it's the length of the tub for a baby, let's say for this argument, we're saying carbon pythons. It can sort of thermoregulate right inside that hide. - Right. - Feels cramped in. I would imagine that if it is accumulating heat and it is on the hotspot and the area is tight, and then when you look at like, you know, so for the one end of the paper towel hide, I might put the spagment moss in it. So again, it's sort of like simulating it, finding it, you know, whatever you want to call that enrichment or whatever the buzz word is for it or whatever. But like my feeling is, is that that will also help keep that heat in, you know what I mean? And sort of like sort of - It gives them a spot to grow open. - Yeah, it gives them the simulate that what they're doing. - I mean, it's kind of like just looking here. Hi, baby. The ruffies, the heat panels on this side of the cage. - Right. - Underneath is the hide box. - Right. - And then right over here on this side of the cage on the ceiling is the ceiling hide. - On the opposite side, right? - Right. - So, but the ceiling hide is big enough that they can get kind of close to the heat panel and also kind of away from it won't do. But also like if you look at her, you have the heat panel, then you have a branch, then you have the top of the bin, then you have the inside of the bin. - Correct. Depending on where she has multiple spots. - She wants to go. - Yeah. - Right now she's sitting on top of the bin and hunting position. (laughing) - It's like, I know what she wants. - It's like, and where is it? - And this one is hanging outside of her ceiling hide and is looking directly at me because I'm moving my hand too much. So, it's like, when the mail is gone, I don't know where he is. - No, it's like, you give them options and you just kind of figure it out. But you need to have, you need to know where the safety net is. You need to know where you need to deploy the net and catch them as opposed to being like, and now the rough scale bite done is at 50 degrees. You've gone too hard. - Right. - And I think, I think how I learned that was, this is sort of how like, I remember when I first started keeping carpets, I talked about this a lot on the show over the years, is this like, we used to keep them with the 90 degree hotspot and all this stuff. And that's how pythons were kept. And this is what you have to do and blah, blah, blah, blah. But you would always notice that the snakes are always trying to get away from that heat. When you start to see that with all of your snakes, just push straight up against the front of a tub when they're, you know, you're sort of like, maybe something's not right. - Yeah, good, yeah. - So then you start looking at stuff or whatever, and then you say, all right, let me back this heat down a bit, and you sort of play with it. And then you see them sort of utilizing both to me. That's when you sort of had the sweet spot. - So when you got a good, yeah. When they have a spot that they love and the warm and the cool, you're fine. And I, of course, cannot say like, anything more about spider robotics. - Perpsets? - Perpsets, yeah, the best. - And I, and we were at a point, you know, I know that we have had people who have like a whole stack of cages, and they have one herb set, and the probes go like a diagonal through the stack. And it's like, top row is run by this probe. And it's like, I have a probe in every single cage. - Yes. - I will put a probe in the bin, not laying on top of the tape. I will punch a hole, put it in the bin, tape it down, 'cause now I know what it is in the bin, and not laying on top of the tape. - Gotcha. - I will just mark that bin, and no snake goes in it. - Right. - Yeah, I put cups in it. - Right. - Like I put other crap in there, like, but that's the point is that, and they'll run the rack, but the things you can do with a herb set with the whole pit, like, you know, ramping up, ramping down, figuring out your temperatures and all that stuff, it makes it so much easier. - Oh yeah. - Dude, this is, I had a heating system once that was controlled by a dimmer switch that was attached to a bunch of human heat pads that you've got at CVS, 'cause they didn't have an automatic shut off. There's a fucking miracle. I didn't burn down my college dorm. - Oh, it's just. - But, hahaha, that's great. - But this is the shit, dude. Like, you have to do that kind of stuff. You have to spend the money. - Sure. - I have this weird thing right now, where I have two herb stats that I'm not using, and I'm like, oh no, I don't know what to do with these, because I've had, like, is this stack right now? - Right. - Was being run by a herb stat three and a herb stat intro. - Okay. - I just went and got the goddamn four. So now, all of these are on one computer system, which means I have a herb stat intro and a herb stat one that I don't have anything to plug them into. - Yeah. - Which is a great thing to have. - Yeah, when I set up, like, a baby rack, the one thing I did was I always use a herb stat two, because I used those, what's the company called? They make the incubators. - Oh, Ranko. - No, no, no. - Nope. - They make the snake incubators. Oh, God, the guy used to live in Philly and he moved to Florida. - Sea serpents. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, when they have like, I think it's three stacks of like the six-court bins, they come in three and you can kind of stack 'em on top of each other. So I'll take that, you've seen it. It's Florida ceiling type of thing. So I always wear it. - And there's my room now, yeah. - No, you have the animal plastic one. - Right. - I still have the sea serpent one. - Right. - But it's basically the same thing. - Yeah. - And the idea with those is I would always worry about the bottom as opposed to the top. And I would run a, it hurts that too. And I would have the one at the top and the one at the bottom. And obviously it would, similar to you, I would have it sort of in a tub that was sort of, you know, I didn't take it down or anything like that. I just sort of had it in the tub, the probe in the tub. And I wouldn't put any snakes in that one, but I would definitely, there would be a different temps because obviously it's going to be a little cooler down at the bottom and, you know. - The stack of racks that I got from you. - Right. - I went and I got a Herpstadt six because after a certain point, I was running them all different things. And the thing is they had, 'cause you did what I like, which is each rack has its own taste. - Yes. - It's not like one thing goes, no, no racks. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Each one, and then I was able to plug them in so that they could run it and all that stuff. And I love that because then it just makes everything a hell of a lot easier, so I did that. And I mean, it's just that kind of investment that's like, spend the money. I know it sucks, but, you know, you sell a couple snakes and then you're like, I got an extra 600 bucks. I got an extra 400 bucks. They run sales all the time and then you just get one. And you know what, sometimes I got a Herpstadt, a brand new Herpstadt for 100 bucks off at a reptile show, it was just there. - Yeah. - And I'm like, okay. - Sure. - It runs my baby racks now because there are four individual baby racks, they're now run by. - Yeah. - I love it, dude. Uniformity is my, I love it. - Isn't it great when everything's all my cages are black, walk in, they're all being run by Herpstadt's. - It just feels good. - Like all I feel is good. - These damn wood cages and I'll be in business. (laughing) - They need to go. - Get out of here. - Lucas can't make six foot cages fast enough. - I need six foot cages to my dimensions now. - I think that's a good spot to call it, but yeah, good stuff. So if you want to support the show, subscribe and share, it's always good. You'll follow us on Mariah Putnam Radio on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, NPR Network is also another place where you can find all the different podcasts. We have a merch store, we have a Discord and we have Patreon, all the links are in the show notes. And yeah, we also have Cold Blood caffeine. - Yes. - We have our own blend, it's a darker blend, but if you're into different types of coffee or you want a lighter blend or whatever it would be, there's tons to choose from, lots of good stuff. And yeah, I have the Bollons. - You do? - Dammit. - One's coming, so that's good. So check out Cold Blood and Caffeine. We have an affiliate link, so that's another way you can support the show and get some awesome coffee. And then we also have, what's going on with Cold Blood and Caffeine? - Cold Blood and Caffeine is still trucking. We just got an order of rodents and it was fantastic, which the snakes are eating them lovely. I know they were running a little bit of a sale on rabbits, pigs and stuff like that, stuff that we would never be able to feed to any of our animals you would like. Well, no, maybe my retake, but I know they were running that stuff and I think they're getting ready for some other sales. I hear they were at the LA show and they're probably going to making an appearance at, it's not, it's Schomburg, the non-kinly. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, not-kinly-kinly. Yeah, so definitely check that out and obviously go follow them on all their social media because that's how you get the ideas that say you get notifications of all the sales that they have going on. And our code is NPR 20, you can put that in a checkout and get 20% off of your first order of rodents. And then if you have an order over $250, you can use FS-250 to get free shipping off your order of above $250, which if you're paying attention and you need rodents, you can very easily get to above $250. - Yes. - So, but that's awesome and that's all I got. So I'll say also this, go check out the website, rogue-reptals.com. A lot of animals are set on the website and I don't think I have another show until August Hamburg. I will be at the July 13th Oakes Show, but I'm coming in the morning, dropping off stuff, and then I'm going to keep McPeek's house. So, if you want shit from me, you will be there immediately. So, I can't go- - I can't wait to go hang out with Keith. - That's gonna be awesome. That's gonna be great. So, yeah, that's all we have to guess tonight. And we'll say thanks all for listening and we'll catch everybody back here next week for some more Morelion Python Radio. Good night. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
