(upbeat music) - Various contracts, yeah. - That's a young foolish man. - How old are you now Owen? - 38. - I got you for another 10 years. - I just turned 38. (laughing) - It just has turned 38. - Yeah, yeah, happy birthday. - Thank you. - All right. Well, here at episode 565, we're gonna celebrate Owen's 38th birthday. - Happy birthday. - Congratulations. - I think we go back to like the first season. I'm like, I'm an old guy. I'm like, 24. I'm like, you poor idiot. What are you doing here? (laughing) - Excellent. So in this episode, we're gonna be talking about pygmy pythons. Anhaled pythons, antiregia perthensis, the smallest python species in the world. There was a cool picture. I don't know if you guys saw it. I'm sure you saw it, Justin, but Matt, somebody will post it up a baby-owned python. Next to the baby-paving python. - Yeah. - Oh my God. That was quite sick. - Yeah, that was so cool. - It's fun doing that with like, I mean, obviously olive python and a carpet python. And you're like, yeah, and you can, I did it kind of last year with olive pythons and ruffies, but it's like to keep going on this scale. Like I'm here, but you can keep going. So, yeah. - Yeah, Owen Pelley is the biggest python in Australia, right? I got that. - I got that. - I got scrubbed. - Man, you're scrubbed. - You're on baby. - I guess scrubbs just don't exist in your mind. - Maybe, I think they get longer and- - King Horace? - And heavier body, King Harnine versus, yeah. But it's close. I mean- - One of the- - Pelleys are long. - One of the- - They're just really thin. - They're just really thin. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. (laughs) - Oh, it's like an anaconderetic kind of thing. - I think so. - It's still a big baby. It's a huge baby. It's like, especially compared to an anthill, my God. - Yeah, I'd like to see the comparison between a King Horne and Owen Pelensis. - Yeah. - Being interesting. - Yeah, that would be cool. - Just line up all the babies. - Does he have? - Then just line up all the babies. Just line up all the babies, all in one picture, all the different species. - We'll just scale them up. - I think my buddy, Steve Hatch, well, he hasn't hatched out Owen Pelleys yet, but he's got King Horne, I believe, and he has some. - Yeah. - I think so. - Wow. - Absolutely cool. - I think so. - But who better to talk being with Pythons with the anterior king of the US? - There may be a book somewhere with his name on it's title. - Yeah. - Well, he has, you know, he's very successful with breeding them and keeping them and getting them going and all the difficulties that, you know, people may run into it. I don't understand why, maybe I do, but I'm trying to kick it into where they're more popular because it's like a tiny Python that you can put in a naturalistic setup and you don't have to deal with the whole, you know, like you can have a really cool setup with, and take up a decent part, but it's not like you have to separate a room in a way to keep the thing, you know? - Yeah, I blame Owen. - Why? (laughing) - What do I do now? - I was saying how difficult they are. - I mean, I failed miserably while I tried it. - Well, it's colubrids that let's like, you know. - They're right. - You have to spread with the font. - Yeah, yeah. Hey, here it goes. - Hey, we know where his boundaries are now. - Yeah, yeah. - Listen, I'm a colubrid guy and they put colubrid in a colubrid in a colubrid. - Python guy. - Exactly. (laughing) - Yeah. - But yeah, so we're gonna talk about that. Owen, before we do that, do you have anything going on? - Anything, how was the show? Didn't you just have a show? - That was, that was, that we already did that in the last show. We covered that in the last show. - Oh, I can't remember. (laughing) - I do have to make an announcement. I messed up, Nipper is at 13 rattlesnakes. - I know, I heard he used to acknowledge those changes. No, no, he's still at six until he prunes it. Yeah. - He has to do it all over again? - He does, it's a shame. I don't see a photo of him with the rattlesnakes, like, you know, kind of like that. He has to have photographic proof. And also today's newspaper with the rattlesnake in order for it to be accepted. - Yeah, he needs to be there. - I got a message from him. - Yeah. (laughing) - I got a message from him this morning. He's like, "After I got you to the top of the Grand Canyon." - After I didn't want you to die. - And I did promise him that I would say thank you. I think I said thank you multiple times. I think I did, and I'm pretty sure I did. And I'm like, oh, I said, what did I say or not say? Whenever Rob or Nipper sent me a message after a show, I realized that somewhere we said something wrong and they're like, how do you think I feel when they're like? - We weren't in this spot. We didn't do that. We didn't see the species where, you know, like it's always-- - Usually they're messaging who's going, how stupid are you? Like you got these animals, what is wrong with you? Or you moron, you're gonna die. Like those are those quite like, yeah. - And yeah, so that's my news. 13 rattlesnakes, not six. I forgot about the Arizona. - Allegedly. - Where we popped out, your Arizona trip, you found what, one? - I only found-- - On A-trox. - Which five? - We don't know. - On A-trox. So it's like, that's just adding insult to injury. It's like-- - You found the club. You found the first-- - I found the club. - Yeah, I found the club and I found the Willard eye. And for example-- - I found the Willard eye. Don't take care of him. - Sorry. - I'm sorry. - Apologies. But you saw the glorious months. I was above them with that. And then they went to the same frickin' spot and found them all over again. So yeah. - Yeah. - At the murder house, right? That's what we're talking about. - It is a terrifying place. Yeah. Don't go there. It's not good. - Great. - I think the only other two things I have is, Ryan Young, he hatched out some popcorn pythons, so there you go. And then Carverfest, I think it's the 10th. We have the 10th, the 11th, the 12th. Which one are we at, Owen? - Uh, I lost track, let's go there. - Yeah, I did it in 2012, but we missed two years, 'cause COVID, so this would have guessed me, the 10th one. - This is the 10th. Okay. - I have to doubt to go through the T-shirts, 'cause I think we didn't do a T-shirt last year when it throws me off. So-- - Yeah, we did. - We did? - I would buy that. - Yes, shit. Remember when it came out green? - Get in order. - Get in order. - Yeah. - All right, yeah. Where's that shirt? I have one like, wow, that didn't work out well, so. (laughing) - This is why we're gonna do that for our own devices. - Exactly. - But yes, Carverfest is September 14th in '14, Pennsylvania. - Yes. - Which is Eric's house. - Yes. - The same rules of all Carverfest apply, you have to bring food that is ready to eat or you have to make it ready to eat, and you are not allowed to bring any animal under any circumstance. (sighing) - Goddamn it. - No, no. (laughing) - Cause there's always several people here where it's like, look out. - No, they get left here. - Yeah, what? - Did anybody bring animals last year? - Yeah. - You gave it for you. - For you, the several people. (laughing) - Oh, well, that's different. - Right, right. - No, they're pretty. - They're like, they're here on the front of the line and you're digging a hole over here. Like it's, well, that's different though. - Okay. - Yeah. - I mean, it's fine. - They're gonna be here anyway. - I should. - Right, look, it's now become the whole things of, you must adhere to the rules and let's air exist different. So that's-- - That's kind of my house. - I understand. (laughing) - No, I don't want anybody's snakes. Just if you're bringing a snake as a, well, I don't even wanna snake-- - An offering? I guess? - Bring me a book. (laughing) - Yeah, books don't eat. - No, no. So, but that's what we got there. And as far as me with news, I'm waiting for one clutch of carpet pythons to hatch. And-- - Are you both tigers? - Yes. - Nice. - Yep, waiting for those. - See them. - And then I have probably a clutch of blonde, hognose, blonde Madagascar hognose on the way. So-- (laughing) - I cannot promise anything. I mean, come on now. So, that, and then I'm gonna give the Boyega their first shot at eating. - Yeah, how they're doing? - They're doing great. They're settling like awesome. Yeah, I mean, they're very much one of those snakes you set up and you're like, that's fun to look at. Don't touch it. Like it's very pretty over there. So, yeah. - I think if I were to keep any of them, it would probably be the night tigers just because they look like a walnut python. - Yeah. - But I have walnut pythons, so why keep a night tiger. But you can't get them because of the walnut. - Right, right. - Well, that too. - Yeah, and they're introducing all that other fun stuff. Yeah. I like that I would've wanted to go for the black and yellow ones. The Boyega's, the name is this game right now. - Or probably? - Yes, thank you. But I went with the, but I have the dogtooths, which are, they're cool in their own right. So, - I like it. - My dad had Melon Dorfi. They were cool. - You had a big-- - Papa Burk had everything. - Yeah. That was, that's probably why I liked them because they were like jungle carpets. - Yeah. - I think though, if you made a jungle carpet look like a Melon Dorfi, where it was more black and less yellow, that would be pretty badass. - I mean, jungle people around the world need to flip it. You've taken yellow and black to as far as you can take it. Now make it black and yellow. - Without using spray paint. - Right. Yeah. That's part of it. Yeah. You have to put in those disclaimers. Yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. - Oh. - But yeah. It would be nice to see different alterations of certain patterns and stuff like that. Now that we've got color and certain things, start mucking with pattern. - The highlighters kind of had that, where they had that really rich black. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Let me ask you guys. You've been around for a while. Don't you think that the jungles kind of all look the same? - Yes. - But I kind of remember back in the early days, where there were so much variety, tip, not tipped, yellow, gold, cream, you know, I don't know. It just seems like it's kind of, they kind of all look the same. Yeah. (laughing) - I mean, yeah. - Yeah. - I think it just, people are producing jungles less. I don't know. Maybe it seems to me. - Maybe it's that, yeah. I think what it used to be is you had certain breeders that had certain looks and certain lines and you had fans of those lines, looks and stuff of that vibe from those breeders. Yeah. And if that's what you were looking for, you bought from those people. And then after a certain amount of time, you know, other, you had a pair of jungles and you lost a male, or you lost a female, or you moved them along and somebody else who didn't really care too much, just wanted black, yellow jungle, go with black, yellow jungle. Kind of just kept doing that. And then you eventually got to a point where it's a lot of the different lines are now all mixed in together. So it's just getting black and yellow jungles. And you know, it's gonna look amazing. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not shitting on them by any stretch of the means. I just remember a little more variety, I think. - I think people question their purity in some instances. So those lines come out of the A/B/K and people are like, "Well, that's not a real way." - Well, it's got time into it. - And then it still then it goes away. And then you're like, "Oh, those are for cool looking." - And then it turns out they were probably pure. People are just making stuff up. - But then also how many jungle carpets got mixed into jungle jag projects. - Yeah. - Where everything kind of just got towed under that way. - Always screw stuff up. - Zebra's, I mean, everybody stopped refining different jungle lines. 'Cause everybody just wanted to take their jungle, their best looking jungle to a zebra. - I've seen the, I've seen that in zebras more than I've seen it in jungles where you have more black than yellow. - More refinement, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's like a couple of people, you know, pops out just randomly in a clutch or whatever. And then people kind of run with it. But it's like they got more black than yellow kind of. - It has not really. - Zebra a couple of years ago. Really not cool. - Yeah. - And weird kind of pinstripey yellow on it. It's neat looking. - Yeah. - Did you sell it or do you keep it? - I kept it. - Good. - Good. - Good. - Cool. - Well, we're not here to talk about jungle carpets. - No, I'd have more to keep them. - We're talking pygmy Python. So let's start at the beginning. Like tell me Justin, how did you get into pygmy pythons? What did you learn about them? Like how did you first hear about them? All that kind of stuff. - This goes back to the Pleistocene where you wandering around the Pleistocene, right? - I mean, damn, you look good for it. I mean, I don't. - No, so my first foray into pythons was actually a children's Python back in '99 or 2000, somewhere around there. They were hatched in 1998. And incidentally, they actually just passed away last year. One, the female passed away last year, the male the year before. So they were, you know, over 20 years old. - Yeah, yeah. - But so that was kind of my first breeding project as far as pythons went. It was the one I could talk my wife into because it wasn't big and, you know, yeah, yeah. And they were cute little babies. So, and they were actually produced by the barkers. I bought them directly from the barkers, if I recall. So they were red desert phase children's pythons. And, you know, really nice line. I still work with that line today. And I've got several, several breeders from that line. But the, after, you know, having success with those, I got into the Cape York Spotteds and read those a few times. And then I thought, you know, the antiregia are pretty doable. So let's go for some pygmy pythons and some Stimpson's pythons. So a friend was getting out of antiregia and he was getting into ball pythons during the, kind of that, you know, the, the ball python, the big Greg, what do you call it? - Big increase, yeah. - Exponential phase of ball python breeders. And so he was willing to trade for some ball python morphs that we'd produced. So I was partners with Ben Morrill back then. And so I talked Ben into letting us trade some ball pythons for some pygmy pythons, Stimpson's pythons, some granite Spotteds and something else, I was gonna deal. But this was Sterling, I can't remember his last name, but, and this was back in 2009. So that's when I first acquired me pythons based on the success of the, you know, children's and Spotted's. And so, yeah, I got them then and they were, I believe I got adults from him. I got two, two lines out of the deal. So I got a LASIK line and Patterson line. And so they're named after Don Patterson. I think there was some, somebody in the US brought them in. - Okay. - You know, they, or they swam to the US. - Somehow they got here. - Yeah, it's something like that. So I think that's the reason they call them the Patterson line is because they sent some up to Don, Don Bredham, and then they're up there and then they came to me. So they didn't wanna put their name on that. - Got it. - Okay. - I don't know, I'm not sure the real story, but I've just heard some kind of whispers and rumors that kind of thing. But so I bred, bred them, you know, they were pretty straightforward. Bred just like children's pythons for the most part. The babies are a bit smaller and much more frustrating to get feeding. Yay, children's pythons have been pretty easy as far as anchovies you go. As are most of the rest, the Western stems are a little more challenging, or at least they used to be when we, I first started breeding them, but after successive generations have become easier. And sometimes the pygmies will be easy and other times they are just maddeningly, maddeningly, insanely difficult, yeah. - One to live, yeah. - I talked to Casey Lazzick about him. He said the first year he produced pygmies pythons, they all ate pink mice, like no problem. Like they were easy and he's like, "What's everybody's problem with these things?" You know, like they're easier. And then the next year they wouldn't touch a pinky and he had to feed them lizards and he was just like this. - Yeah, they can be very challenging if they want to be, but you know, sometimes they take to pinkies, no problem. I haven't found a like a big trip trick that works every time with pygmies yet. Hopefully I can do better. I don't know. I always, you know, I kind of getting that, oh, I've done this, I've been here. And then, you know, I screw up and, you know, - Somebody can be a little bit of a challenge. - But, so yeah, that's kind of how I got started. - Do you have a big group of them or do you have a, what do you have? - Yeah, so that's it. Right now, I've only got the patterns line. So I learned a hard lesson. I sold all the babies 'cause they were going for good money and, you know, had them all established and that kind of thing. So I was all excited and sold them all and then sold them all the next year. And then I lost my LASIK pair. Like for some nap, I came with the AOLs. This was a while back, but I came in. I think the female had killed a male or something and then she ended up dying as well. I think she tried to eat him or something. I can't remember, but they ended up dying. So, oh, baby's left. I had no hold backs from that line, just to say live for a day. (indistinct) I ended up losing that line. So I learned my lesson and then started holding back a Patterson line animal. So now I have a group of three point, with three point six around there. Some of them are still young and coming up. I had two females lay this year, but I was out of town for one of the clutch and the female, she's laid for me before. My oldest female has kind of stopped going. She's just kind of a pet now and I sold my old male to somebody that needed a female. And that was one I was willing to let go 'cause my female's not breeding right. - Right. - So hopefully he'll have luck with that male. But then the rest, I've gotten a few from different sources. I actually brought in one from Lucas yesterday, which is actually a Lazick Patterson line cross. So, oh cool, I'll be able to get some, hopefully get some pegs out of that female. She's a little on the small side. I don't know if she'll go this coming season, but we'll try to beef her up and give her a try. But obviously they can be fairly small sizes. But usually they have very small clutches and they're very small babies often when they're first year. - Very small, yeah, that's weird. - That was that second female that went for me this year was a very smaller female. And so the eggs I got from here, her mostly were slugs and then there were a couple good eggs, but she didn't wrap them. And so they were just desiccated in the cage. I knew she was probably close to laying, but I didn't think to have somebody check on her. I thought she'd just wrap them up and I'd come home and have her all balled up or anything. - They have the little thing, yeah. - A bunch of crap spreader and she's incubating the floor. I don't know if you've ever seen that word. - Yeah, they're flat and just under the substrate and you're like, nice job. - Yeah, I don't think that's gonna work. - That happened this year with my tiger carpet 'cause you have a perfect nice nest box and this is a proven female tiger. And every year she lays in the nest box, this year she kept going back into the paper. I'm like, well, you just do what we've always done and she laid them under the paper and she laid flat on top of them 'cause she spread them out too wide. So she wasn't trying to like bunch them up. She was just laying on top of them and I'm like, get out of here and just straightening. - Yeah, move you. - And I don't know if I, so I just had eggs hatch from a Stimson's Python female and she was not wrapped around them. I found, you know, I came back from the Australia trip and she was curled up next to her clutch and the clutch was kind of rough looking and it looked like it had desiccated a bit and I was not expecting it to hatch but they all hatched. - They made it? - Well, most of 'em. I think I had two that died in the egg but they're-- - Wonder if you were looking. - Wonder if she was on 'em and off. Don't, no, we're not allowed to talk about Stimmies 'cause no, really cool. - No, no, she brought home a bird yesterday. She's not getting stin' small, okay? No, Stimmies are easy. They take up very little room. I'm not hearing that. - Yeah, man. - That's not, no. - You could fit like 20 Stimmies in your retake spot. - Oh, yeah, I can have a whole ecosystem in there. Like, is it the big cage, dude? - He could have an army of Stimmies in there. So yeah, I've got a fairly, you know, good size group but I'm looking to get some of the lazzic line to kind of breed those up here as well. If I can get some, I think, in case he produced some, actually. So I asked him to put me on his horse, man. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. - Yeah, I think he had to go back and find somebody that was breeding his line but yeah. - Yeah, he did what you did. I mean, he had to go again. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Exactly. - Sucks. - It sucks when it's actually, you were lying though. - Yeah, I've never, I haven't crossed that bridge yet but wow. - I know, I guess he's been doing it so long, that's bound to happen and when you're doing it as long, you know? - Yeah. - Well, he kind of stopped working with Australian stuff and moved on to all the headphones. - Right. - And that, that, yeah. - Right. - Next one's your face. - He does colubrids too, right? Yeah, yeah, he's got a really nice collection of locality, West Texas stuff. - Yeah. - Cool. - He's got some cool stuff. - Yeah, you know, one of the things that stood out to me, I put it in a note so Owen could see it but like at the bottom of it, there was like all these different localities and they're just so variable. Is that the same with what we see in captivity or no, did it kind of the same look and then we'll talk about your experiences with them in the wild. - Yeah, I mean, you know, kind of there's probably a bit of a bottleneck on, you know, the looks that you get. There is maybe a little bit of variability but for the most part, they look very similar. This one that I got in from Lucas looks, you know, pretty similar to the, to the breeders I have. There's, there's some kind of more fine details that you can, you know, almost only see in hand, you know? There's these really kind of a hoppery sheen to some of them that's really cool looking. And it's almost like an orangey red color that comes out in the sunlight. It's hard to describe, but it looks really cool. And so that's kind of what I've, you know, I kind of want to refine or bring out a little bit, but you know, that's a cool pattern variation, I guess. You want to call that that. But I think that pops up in the different lines. I don't think it's specific to one line or another. But why is Hoager in my show notes? What did you do? What's going on here? - Don't say the name. - What's the name? Why is that in the show notes? - Yeah. - Where did I put that? - That's, I guess he wrote that one article you put in here from the Victoria Perpetological Society. - Is that where he rams over the termite mound with his truck? - I believe so. - Longer than I am inside. - I'm a quick skim it, yeah. - Well, that was, yeah. - Practice that is. - This is one of the things that I had on the thing to talk about. Maybe we can just switch there and then go back to the variability. But like, you know, Rob had mentioned it on this last trip. When we went to, we were talking about the California trip and he was up, we had to climb up this mountain. He climbed up to scope out the very tippy top of it. And he said that like, you know, there was a herper up there while he was assuming it was a herper. And it just like flipped all the rocks, but they didn't put anything back. So it was, you know. - Oh, that's too bad. - Yeah. One of the things that I saw regarding that paper that you're talking about is that like in Australia, they'll like smash the termite mounds to sort of get to females. And what an effect that has on the ecosystem. And I never thought about it in terms of termites and all the loser to monitors that would eat those termites. And then the snakes that are eating the lizards and the monitors and, you know, it just, just, you know. - I'm sure the termites are pretty devastated that it happened. Yeah. - Well, yeah, but I mean them first, yeah. - I'm just saying that if you're gonna hurt, you should make sure that hurt better, right? - Yeah, hurt better. - But exactly. - But exactly, man. - Yeah. - No, I mean, yeah, that's definitely an issue if you're out. I mean, that was really apparent to me when we went and looked for the Wheatbelt Stimmys out in Western Australia and like the spot where they're found or one of the big spots where they're found, all the Caprox were flipped over and it looked like scars, you know, where they'd been flipped 'cause, you know, different color underneath them or whatever. And it's like, you just walk into this going, what is wrong with people? You know, if they profess to care about these animals or their interest in these animals, yet they're gonna just destroy their habitat, you know, that they need to survive. And yeah, it just boggles the mind why a herper would not replace a rock or, you know, why they're using crowbars or something to break up, you know, break off the Caprox so they can get underneath. And, you know, those kind of people are just money-grubbing flippers as far as I'm concerned. If you're gonna destroy habitat to collect just to sell an animal, your dirtbag, my friend. Yeah, that's going too far. That's like drag net fishing versus like fishing and it's like, well, yeah, yeah, no, that's, yeah. I mean, I don't know. And nowadays, you know, there's no need for that. I don't think it seems like you can pretty much get most of the stuff you need, you know, from captive bread sources. Oh, God, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, and if you're out herping, you know, that's, you're supposed to be enjoying the enjoy. You want to do it again? Right, right. Yeah. Devastating the land, it doesn't want to come back. You'll never be able to find it. I have a great spot to go herping. Well, it was until I destroyed it. Yeah, so it's like, wait. Yeah, that's how this spot was in California, Rob, was pretty taken back by, like just confused of like how, why you would, you know, scale, go to this, like to find something and then just decimate it. Totally careless about the environment. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. But yeah, I don't know. There's variability that I see in the species from what I see. It kind of looks like I got the feeling it was kind of like what we see in row snakes in the West, where it's kind of like where they're from. They kind of blend into their backgrounds and what's your experience been with them in the wild? So, you know, we saw some variability in color and pattern and things like that. I mean, the ones that I found on the first trip to Western Australia, we found like six of them, but it was within, you know, a few miles of each other. So, you know, we were not sampling far and wide on, you know, in their habitat. And for some reason, like that's been my experience. And on the second trip, we only found one. And it was close to that area. It may be a little further south and west from where we saw the majority of these. So, we saw them kind of in the north of Western Australia, kind of, I was trying to find my notes where I wrote down, you know, the GPS coordinates of where we found everything. And for some reason, I thought I knew where it was and I cannot find it, but yeah. So, you know, you'll get, you'll get, like, almost patternless individuals, like the one just below that, kind of in the middle. Yeah, something like that where it just has very faint or slight, you know, spotting versus others, like the one that you had up there that are, you know, a little bit more patterned. You can see the blotches and things like that. Now, there is some ontogenic changes in pigment iPhones where you get, you know, the juveniles are very boldly patterned, you can clearly see, you know, the light and the red and the white areas kind of thing. And then as they mature, they kind of fade out, similar maybe to a children's Python where they kind of lose more of the pattern maybe. So, that might be part of this where we're seeing, you know, patternless, but I do think there is, you know, kind of some, something to that patternless look that maybe, you know, part of the range of more faux types of pygmy pythons. 'Cause you do see some look studies that have pretty heavy patterns that are lighter, have a lighter background color. So, I think that, you know, there's probably, you know, they're not like carpet Python variability, you know, they're all kind of a, you know, these rusty red color, you know, that brie color, just to blend in with the red rocks of Western Australia. They come from a fairly limited range, focused probably in the Pilbara, most part. I don't think they get too far out of that, out of the Pilbara area. So, and that's a, it's, it's almost like just these red pells everywhere, you know, like the ground is just covered with these little rocks, these red rock, it's kind of a cool, different kind of landscape than I was used to. And then it has spin effects and that. So, that at least where we found a pretty heavily was in an area like that, spin effects in just these red rock hell type of stream. - Are they on like, like, is it like a tallest slope type of rocky outcrops that they're on? Or is it like these little mounds that are in the middle of like the spin effects bushes scattered throughout? - Yeah, I believe they'll use the rocky outcropper, you know, kind of a tallest slope. But I remember watching a video of Brian Bush where he was lifting up these, some kind of cement, like, I don't know if it's a base, just kind of these oddly shaped cement slabs and he was lifting them up and finding pygmy pythons under them. So, I guess, you know, they'll utilize, you know, under rocks and under things like that. Probably in their more natural habitat, they're under rocks or in rock piles or in rock cracks, you know, crevices within between boulders. And I think people have found those, found them in that kind of habitat, but they tend to prefer kind of more rocky areas. - So, the thermal amounts, is that just for young ones and like egg incubation or do they also kind of live in and around termite mounds? Like, is that included with their kind of? - Yeah, they definitely make use of termite mounds. And I, you know, to what extent it's hard to say, you'll have to ask Hoser 'cause he's smashed. - Yeah, let's smash a bunch next time and see how many of you are in here and what stage of life are you at? - Yeah, but I mean, you know, termite mounds are very nicely temperature controlled by the insects. So, they build them such that they stay a fairly consistent temperature. They don't get too hot, too cold. They have humidity, so, you know, there's a nice humid environment in there. And then lots of geckos and other lizards like to live in them as well. So, you've got a ready food source. So, you know, a pygmy python can kind of find everything. It's kind of a nice penthouse suite for a pygmy python and they can get their way in. I guess that's the other challenges. They need an entry hole and, you know, maybe a monitor lizard or something, you know, doing it to try to nest or find food or something like that. So, they have to be able to get inside. But, and the insects, you know, the termites will quickly plug any holes and fix, repair any breaks in the wall and such. So, I don't know if there's pygmy pythons that just get trapped in a termite mountain, spend their whole life in there, or what. But, you know, that's, I guess that's a possibility, but they would probably fare okay. I don't know about water. You know, if they need to drink much in the wild, or if they're in a kind of a humid microclimate, if they'll be okay to kind of survive in there and get their moisture from their food. - Yeah, I don't know. - The pillar is pretty, you know, it's a pretty harsh desert as far as, you know, when you're outside of the water filled gorges. I mean, there's like permanent water at the bottom of some of these gorges that's fantastic. I mean, Karajini is the most beautiful place on earth as far as I'm concerned. It's just a wonderful spot. I'd like to get back there someday soon, but so, you know, pygmy pythons live down there. So, you know, they've got the, you know, water course and big rocks and things like that. So, I haven't found them that. And I've only found them so far, road cruising. So, it's just happened to kind of, it's the. - Yeah, it's the one we found. Yeah, yeah, I'm counting it. Yeah, it's what. - We didn't find it. - It wasn't a pygmy, it was in the end. Shut up, it was in the whole thing. - Yeah. - You found, did you guys find a bunch of children's pythons? - No, we found two. - We found two. - Yeah, we found a normal one and then we found a discartment maybe. - Yeah, yeah. - And that's high on my list to see both of those. I've only seen a D.O.R. children eye, but yeah. - So, are you going on the October trip or you? - You are. - I am not. - So, which means you'll find everything. - You'll find, yes. - Thanks. - No, I'm gonna let you pipe them. - Appreciate it. - On your goddamn head. - Yeah. - I'll take it. Sorry, I'll take it. - That was second, back to the head. - Well, when we find the olive python, I'll be sure to send you the picture. - I don't know. - I'm gonna go into L.E.2.0. - I see them all the time. - Fingers across. - Okay. So, roadcows is a good way to sort of find them. - I mean, out the road. - I guess, you know, take the miles I drove in Western Australia and divide it by the number of pygmy pythons. I mean, you wanna be in the right area. - Yeah. - And we did spend quite a bit of time in kara genie areas, as well as kind of further north of kara genie and, you know, python pool and areas like that. And perfect habitat. We were hiking, you know, in the canyons and such, but just weren't, didn't get lucky enough to see one on the, just hiking it. And I would love to see one hiked up, you know, just gettin' in. - Oh, yeah. - Yeah. - That's always more satisfying to ride on a hike. - Yeah. I guess the Owen Pelly was the only one we found hiking, right, Owen? Blackhead, we found roads. - Water python. - We found children's water python too. - And this lady, right. - And the Darwin's and the-- - The Darwin's. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Nevermind. - You had a little help. - Yeah, and the water python and the botanical garden, yeah. - Yeah. - So we found a bunch of night tigers walking around and, you know, cane toes walking around and-- - Yeah. I think, I think for me with road crews in Australia, not that I don't like it. I do, but I don't know. You see so many dead things. - That is the kicker. - You know, it's kind of a bummer, you know? - Yeah. - It's like, oh! Traveling all this way, and there it is. - There it is. We definitely do it a little bit sooner. - Yeah. - I definitely need your Rob to touch. So on the first day of the week, she didn't want me to hike in the wilderness. She was like, pretty cool out there, but, you know, 'cause you didn't want to do it. You didn't mean to go out in case I got her killed by a, you know, snake or something, so. She was a little nervous about that. So like, I'm like, fine, I won't go out. But then when I went with the air sheet, you can turn it for your well-being and see exactly. - Exactly. - Yeah. - Come on. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I mean, I'm chasing the ground snake. - Yeah. - And then we hold our wife later. - Yeah, we've liked a lot at night. Probably more in the Northern Territory in Queensland, it was more road cruising. - Yeah, it's a lot of private and developed land in the eastern half. - Is there a lot of development in Western Australia? Or is it no? - No, I'm saying deal is just lots of road. - Yeah, I mean, just long road. I mean, one of the nice things in some ways are the mining roads because they keep the mining rods pretty well cared for and, you know, smooth and such. And so they need to get in and out and get their. So they keep the roads and then you only have mining trucks usually using those roads. - Right. - So you can harp on those roads and they're fantastic. - Right. - You know, that's made the Western Australia are likely built by mining companies. And you get in the middle of nowhere and you have this beauty road. Yeah, there's got to be mining road or they built this. So, yeah. - Yeah. Oh, and didn't you, weren't you, didn't you switch to driving when we drove on one of those rough roads? And it was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. - That was in a mining road too. That was a crater of the moon. Like that was the drive down to that one place where there could have been a blackhead and then it wasn't, then it was cool. Now we get the limper way back up and then right when we hit the pavement area where all the crap was gone, we hit the pavement. There was a lizard on the road. So we all bailed out and of course this lizard, there was like maybe two trees in the entire area. And somehow this lizard disappeared into thin air. Like we're all checking the trees, the bushes, it's the sky where they help this thing go. So. - Remember that? - Yeah. - I think that was rough. - Yeah. - Is that the puted in the bottom monitor? - Was it a conoptive? - No, I think it was a bigger, bigger monitor. - Bigger, I think, yeah. - Yeah. - Okay. - I wanna say maybe a panopti, is it panoptis? Am I saying that right? - Rob's just screaming his head off at the radio right now. - He usually does when he can talk about trips. (laughing) - I mean. - Because I have to, we have a tendency to. - Hi Rob. - What do we get to tell a story? You know what I mean? - I mean, what do you think people are here? - Yeah, exactly. - The mind is an interesting thing. It can really kind of change how you saw something or how you remember it or what order it came in. And other people like Rob that, you know, know that stuff. - Listen, he likes to go from A. - But when you're planning it. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, Rob likes to go from A to C. - Yeah. - I like to go from A to C, take a little dip at E, take a little kind of detour back to B, and then we'll continue on. Okay. - It is pinopties. That's the, yeah, that's the big yellow spot monitor that's up there kind of. - I don't know, I think that was the one that we thought. - I don't know. We don't know. - Sure. - Because like I saw it, Keith saw it, and then you guys saw it from the backseat, but it was like, I'm okay, nevermind. Rob may have seen it. Eric just knew excitement. Get out of the car running around and waving, yes. (laughing) Is it a water buffalo again? - No, no, no, it's, is it a carpet? What's going on? - All right. - I don't know what's happening, but I'm happy. - It's got legs, what? - Yeah. - No, no, I thought it was this crap. (laughing) - Back in the car. - Right, okay, all right. So their habitat is rough, right? I mean, they're coming from them. - Depending on where you're at, but yeah, it can be fairly cold at night, pot in the day, depending on the time of year, of course, nights can also be warm and muggy, and I think they're not gonna be out in the open too much, and I don't know, maybe that night we found half a dozen of them in a short stretch of row was because conditions were ideal and things were good, or I'm not sure, but yeah, it was like all of a sudden we just started seeing them everywhere, and then back to none, you know? That was the only night that we saw any on the trip was that one spot, one night within a few miles. - Gotcha. - Similarly, we saw one stretch where we saw like a ton of nobtail geckos and they were just everywhere, like every, you know, 50 feet, see another nobtail gecko, just in this little stretch, and then all of a sudden they're not there, you know, they're gone. - Well, it is our interest. - Nobtails on the menu for-- - Oh yeah. - Okay, so I mean like-- - Yeah, pygmy pythons definitely start out as reptile feeders, they'll eat lizards. I don't know if they eat insects. I mean, I think it's pretty much just lizards, and there's plenty of lizards to choose from. We've also got a picture in the book of one peeling a lizard up off the road that had been smashed and, you know, adhered to the pavement and it's, you know, ripping it off the street to eat it. So they will eat even dead, you know, half rotten. - So you see that, you see that, and then you have one that's like, I don't want that mouse. I'm going back in my tub and, you know, you go to hell, sir. Like it's like, dude, seriously, whatever. - Well, when Casey was having the issues with, you know, where he was resorted to feeding lizards, you know, he tried all the different tricks. He tried, you know, trying to get the pinkies to appeal to these things. And then he said, "Well, fine, I'll get a lizard." And he got a lizard and he threw it in there. He said, "Before it hit the ground, it was eaten." Like it was wrapped and taken down. - Oh, God, oh, it's so dry. - Yeah, right? - I'm looking at the lizard's leather that is yearning. - Yeah, it's kind of cool. - And in that same, well, in Karajini, just north of Karajini, we were cruising along and saw a snake in the road and it looked kind of weird. And so I jumped out and I'm looking down, like, what is that thing doing? It was a mullga and it was trying to peel up a death adder that had been hit by the mining trucks or whatever and was trying to peel it up and eat it. And so like we got out and I spooked it and it took off, you know, and went a little bit, little ways, I kind of saw where it was. So I got the snake hook and took the death adder over to it and gave it to it at the end of the snake. - Yeah, friend. - Took it and finished it off. It was really cool. - Actually just submitted that to her preview to publish that observation. So hopefully it'll get published here in another few months. - I mean, it's good that the DOR's, you know, don't go to waste, I guess. I mean, I'd rather see that than-- - I mean, yeah, you always see the winged cleanup crew in the morning, you know. - Yeah, man. - And all the stuff that's gotten hit. The only things that stick around are probably like shinglebacks where, you know, you can see shinglebacks that are probably a couple of years old that just don't, they have, yeah, it's wild though. - Yeah. - Yeah, those things don't rot away very quickly or easily. Those osteoderms tend to stay around. - Yeah. - They around a while. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, let's, okay. So we're talking about, you know, seeing them in the wild and their environment and all that, yeah. It's hot today, night. What is that, how do you keep them? And I guess I would look at it as if you were to have somebody that wanted to keep them more naturalistic, let's say, how would you set that up to? - What you set up a tank is like the harshest possible condition, survival of the fittest, you know, 12 of them in there and you just-- - 120 degrees. - Yeah, good luck, everyone. The thunder dome. Yeah, it's, yeah. - I mean, you know, they can handle that. And again, they're, you know, they're seeking shelter and seeking lower temperatures when it's very hot out or they're coming out on the road when it's a little cooler out, things like that. But so, you know, I usually keep them like a typical python with, you know, hot spot, maybe 85 to 90, somewhere around there, depending on the size of the cage. And then, you know, I like to, in my cages at least, keep, you know, use a light bulb for the heat source. And so, it can get a little toasty in the cages, but they have, you know, places to go to get away from that. And I, you know, pretty straightforward. They're pretty simple to set up. - I like to keep mine on, you know, wood shavings for a substrate and then large water bowl, hide areas. I like the roof hides for the antiregia as well. They tend to enjoy those. - Really? - Yeah, they use those, yeah. I mean, the cages aren't very tall, maybe, you know, 18 inches tall or something, but yeah, they like the roof hides pretty well. - What size cage are we talking about for what size baby or snake? - Yeah, so, I mean, my hatchling antiregia and hatchling pygmy pythons are very small. Hair like, you know, six to nine are the names. I mean, they're teeny. And so, yeah, I got this idea from Nick and Ryan where they use these Cambro food pans. And they have the same footprint, like you can fit three or two or one in the same footprint, right? So you can have three smaller ones, two medium size or one large, you know, and then they just vary by height. And, you know, so you've got like a full pan and then you've got third pans and then you can also have ninth pans, which are, you know, a third of the size of the third pan. And then, and those are pretty small. I think they're maybe, oh, maybe six inches by four inches or something like that. And so I use that size for the baby, the hatchlings. So I've got a rack that's probably, you know, four foot by two foot by, you know, six inches deep that holds like 40 animals, you know? It's, you can fit quite a few in that area. And that's usually good for them for a year or more, you know, depending on how quickly they're growing. But I can usually get away with keeping them in there for a year and a half or so before I have to move them up to the next size. And so yeah, they're pretty straightforward that way. And I've also printed off some using a 3D printer. I print off these shelves that kind of, there's these little grooves, not grooves, but the pans are shaped such that it has like a little curvature. And so you can fit a shelf that just kind of wedges in on top of the, these little... - It's like a rock out crossing. - Yeah, well, yeah, it gives them double, almost double the surface area. So they have the bottom and then they have the shelf. And then I have a little hole in the middle where I can put a little water bowl. And so the water bowl is kind of suspended and hanging on the shelf. Yeah, it's, I guess, I think either Nick or Ryan came up with this or somebody they got it from. I don't know, but it works really well for baby antiresia and then very small ventilation holes. I found out pretty early that these antiresia can fit through pretty small ventilation holes, especially a piggy python. - You've got like a big lighter and a sewing needle in your ear. - Here we go. - Exactly. Yep, you want to be careful to not have too large of ventilation for these guys. I would even imagine you have to be careful with the gap, like some racks. - Yeah, and have a gap, you know? - Yeah, you probably have to be, I mean, ventilation for the eggs in the egg box. I mean, if the hole's too big, it'll be like, I'm out, I'm out again, crap. So, yeah. - I used to use wedges when I had like tiny antiresia. You know, just so it's kind of like closed that gap because I was just so worried about this gap. It's like this tiny little gap that I never thought about. And then it's like, you can just tiny snake and you're like, "Oh shit." - So, would a reptile keeper that their wife describes as a bull in a china shop that got confused and excited at the same time, be susceptible? Like, you know, is this the right python for that person? We're not gonna name any names, okay, that could be. - Well, I mean, if they're used to working with small colubrids to hatch out tiny, I mean, a lot of, I think colubrids are very similar in a lot of ways to pygmy pythons because, you know, you got like your gray bands or your, you know, milk snakes and things like that. And they come out probably wanting to eat lizards as well and they're very small and probably a similar size to the pygmy python babies. So, you know, whatever skills that you have trying to get these feeding, corn snakes are probably not much, you know, they're probably about the same size as a pygmy python as well. So they're not, you know, any more difficult than those. I bred a few species of king snakes. I bred some milk snakes, pueblan milk snakes and quetero king snakes and they were very similar. You had to trick them into eating a pinky 'cause they wanted to eat lizards. And so very, very similar in a lot of ways and they were small and wriggly and the pygmy pythons at least aren't, you know, wiggling around like a colubrid. So they're a little easier from that standpoint there. - And I dislike these shows where I have a set basis of I won't do this because and then we talk about and then we immediately get Pat like, well, that's stupid Owen, but like I won't do it. It's a frog feeder. So it's half her other shit. Damn it. Like it's like so, yeah. - I mean, there's definitely ways to make it work and but they are very similar to a lot of the smaller colubrid species. - So I think we're gonna dispel all those issues today 'cause I think this is one of the things that at least this is what I hear from people. Like a lot of times people, you know, they're looking for a snake or whatever. And I try to turn them on to antiresia because I just think of the size, right? And I think of like in terms of what they're trying to do basically have like this naturalistic setup that they can look at and see the snake and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, okay, well, you're not gonna get, obviously they go to big snakes like I want a scrub python or even a carpet python, you know? I mean, you're looking at a big cage, you know? And a big snake, whereas like, I don't know, I just think that like, maybe it's the morph thing but they have a lot of morphs in Australia. Are they super popular in Australia? - I mean, I think it's always hard to make comparisons with Australia because they have a 10th of our population. So right, if you have basically the same percentage of people who are into reptiles or who want to keep a pet reptile or something, you know, you just divide that by 10 and you've got the number of moopers in Australia. So, but I, you know, Peter Birch, he's very good at, you know, pretty much specializing on antiresia. I mean, he keeps some other stuff, but the bulk of his collection is probably antiresia. - Yeah, antiresia, yeah. - At least last time I saw it, there was many much good antiresia there. What a collection. So, you know, but, you know, and I think over there, they're kind of seen as the starter python in a lot of ways. And they also have the licensing, you know, this is like the levels and ladders are big in, yeah? And I think a lot of the, you know, base tears have those antiresia pythons species. - And they also have the cage requirements. So it's like they have to be in this kind of a thing where that might be easier to procure than some of the larger enclosures for other species. - Exactly. - So this would be my thought, right? If you're going to get a, whatever species we're talking pigment pythons here, but whatever species of antiresia, usually once they're going, they'll like eat. - Oh, yeah. - So, it's like, so, let Justin do the heavy lifting and then buy it when he's going with it. - Yes! - And then you have success, got it. - And I never, I never saw one that's not eating. I mean, I always get them feeding and yeah, it can be a headache, but yeah, once they start, it's like, okay, whoo, it's done. You know, the work is done. And now they're good. - Just that moment when they're all eating and you're like, it took me 10 minutes to feed as opposed to the four hours that it's been taking me the last several months. Like, yeah, okay. - Exactly, so. - And I will say I've had less stress trying to get antiresia to feed than I have getting blackheads to feed. - That's a different animal. That's a different messed up animal, okay? - But I, yeah. - Those really, they're always going to be matched. - Like, it's kind of funny with the pygmies 'cause, you know, a lot of times I need to assist feed, kind of at least at first to kind of get them used to eating rodents and stuff. But it's almost like they depend on that. So like, it's like the baby bird that goes up to the bug and opens its mouth and just sits there and right in front of it. - Get in there. - You know, be put in his mouth in. So like, you know, you'll put something in their cage and they won't touch it, but then if you just kind of put it towards their mouth, oh, time to eat, you know? No, they don't really try to spit it out once they get going. And so, you know, that transition between, you know, putting a mouse leg or something in their mouth and having them swallow it the rest of the way versus putting a pinky in the cage, you know? - Right. - I think there's, you know, different tricks you can potentially get them started. I think, you know, keeping them warmer, they kind of kickstart their need to feed and make them, you know, grab onto whatever, whatever is moving and whatever is present. And so, you know, you also have that kind of fine line between overstimulation of their, you know, if they can degrade really quick, you know, if you're not on top of it. And usually if you start assist feeding, you need to at least assist feed at least once a week, if not twice a week, just to keep them, you know, going. - Mm-hmm, okay. - Yeah, once that digestive, whatever, you know, that system kicks in, you need to keep on top of it. So if you miss a couple of weeks, you're probably gonna have a dead pig me on your hands. It's kind of a weird thing 'cause before they start feeding, they can go for, you know, several months without eating, but then as soon as you start assist feeding, you need to stay on top of it. I don't know what that is, but, and if you remember the yogurt trick where they were giving her, it's yogurt to try to stimulate that feed response or whatever, I tried that with some antiregion and they died. Like it didn't do very well with that. - I never liked that because it's like, I'm gonna interject mammalian milk product kind of a thing. - Yeah, I understand the thinking behind it is the probiotics and stuff, but I put a probiotic on a piece of meat and just like, you know, I don't like that whole thing, but there are people like, oh no, no, no, no, you used the wrong yogurt. You need the thickest of Greek yogurt that you could get possibly at the store. And I remember going through the store when I had like, I think my first carpet clutch being like, I don't know, do I need this? I think I ended up going with like, I think I sent it with like chicken stock or, you know, chicken stock. - Chicken stock. - You're doing a juice. Like, oh yeah, we did that. Then I got the dreaded pinky pump and then I quit that whole shit. And then it was the whatever you wanna eat, I'll figure it out, just do it yourself. - I did find one trick that works pretty well. And I actually learned about this from a friend that got a protocol from a Venom production facility that was feeding coral snakes because they're notoriously difficult to get feed on. - Yeah, okay. - I mean, a lot of them specialize on like blind snakes or something like that. So very difficult to hear enough blind snakes to feed your captive coral snakes. - Weird. - So they were feeding a baby food based diet. So like a turkey, baby food. - I'd like that better. I'd like that better. Just be honest, I got like a parrot syringe, feeder type thing and it has a flexible govage needle on it. And you can just put that down the pigment python, throw it a bit and then give them like point one CC of a syringe of baby food and they're good to go. You know, so you keep on top of that and that'll limp them along until they can take a pinky mouse. - That is literally what Melissa is feeding is a small bird if you brought home from the wild yesterday. - Okay. - Yeah, there you go. You're already set up. - Yeah. - You're already ready. - Yeah. - It's so good. - It's so good. - So I've got it down to, you know, got it down to a science where I can feed, you know, 10 to 15 pretty quickly using that method. I just actually leave the syringe on the table and then use my two hands to kind of manipulate the flexible needle into the mouth. - Right. - And then I'll go and kind of, you know, hold them there and then push the, you know, to press the plunger. But so it takes a little bit of practice, but it's not too bad. Although when they spit it out, it kind of makes a goopy. - Yeah. - Yeah. - The mouse legs are a little easier. They just take more time to butcher the mice basically 'cause you gotta clean the joint. You know, you're cutting off the knee and you gotta kind of clean that off so there's no bone strength sticking out. Things like that. - I forget what I was doing it with, but I had a bunch, I think it might have been carpets, but I had a bunch that were on like mouse tails and stuff like that. To the point where I was thawing out, wrote mice for like my kinks next stuff or that, and I would just cut the tails off. And either if I was feeding that day, I'd do that, or I just put them back in the freezer and like I had a bag of mouse tails and my other snakes were just eating these micellas tails for a while and micellas mice. - Tailas mice. - Tailas mice. - Yep. It eventually gets to that point, but it's like you find what kind of works 'cause there's always in a bag of chicks a wing that fell off or a foot that fell off and you can like take that and use it later. So. - Yeah, and that's kind of what I do when I just euthanize a bunch of mice that where I was gonna feed off to other stuff. And then I kind of make a, I do both tails and drumsticks, but the drumsticks have kind of that meat and they have bone and they have skin and fur and stuff like that. So it works pretty well that way 'cause they kind of get everything out of it rather than giving them a pinky, which is basically a fat bag. - Yeah. - Yeah, I have a nagging skin. - Yeah, I prefer that, I prefer like a mouse drumstick over like a pinky 'cause that's just not fair. - That's gonna be the new trend in rodent. - I mean, I. (laughing) - You get an APs. (laughing) - I mean, I have a bunch of an APs drumstick and a tail bucket. - Exactly, that would be perfect 'cause I have a bunch of like rhinos and stuff like that that I wanna get them onto fuzzies as fast as I can 'cause that's where there's actual like growth but they start off so small. It's like, well, we're just gonna keep like flicking pinkies at you until you get big enough, so. - Yeah, are pinkies too big or it's just the fact that they're just fatty? - I mean, it's kind of both. I mean, they do fine once they start eating pinkies. It's not like it's too terrible but I mean, you will see kind of that, you know, more black tar, you know, feces rather than normal people tell it that you get with the hair and the bones and stuff. So I think as far as that goes, you know, I prefer the drumstick to a pinky but the ease of a pinky, you know, just throwing a pinky in there and you're good, you know, rather than having to put your bunch of mice and get the drumsticks and tails and stuff. - Yeah. - So, and the other thing I'm thinking about is like, once are you feeding them like after they shed are you starting that process? Like have they first shed or? - Oh yeah, yeah, well after the first shed. So usually they'll shed and I'll let them kind of get hungry and I actually leave the clutches together for a couple of weeks and then separate it out. Yeah, I don't know, dangerous for the answer you should. - It can be if you wait too long. I mean, I wouldn't say wait, you know, a month or two but I mean, several weeks I haven't had any issues usually. I'm trying to think back, like back in the day I had some, you know, hatchling enteries you try to eat each other and that usually ends up with two animals dying because you can't handle such a big meal and so, you know, that's, it is a little dangerous but I do think most baby snakes tend to hang out for a little while in the nest or I mean, we don't know a lot about that. So it's hard to make that conclusion but it just seems like whenever I put a clutch in a cage together, they're always bald up in the same area. You rarely see them like spread out equidistently, you know, they're all kind of hanging out either and it doesn't necessarily have to be over the heat or you know, they're all together and so I, I don't know if they're getting something out of that but and then once in a while, I'll just kind of throw a pinky mouse in the cage and if somebody eats it then I'll separate them out, you know, okay, you're ready to go and I don't know if that helps or hurts or if they were gonna eat it anyway, you know. So, but that's kind of one of the methods I use is just to kind of hang out. You want to keep an eye if you're throwing pinkies in there to make sure two don't start on the same pinky or you know, get them all riled up and start biting each other but I do like to separate them at least, you know, by, you know, few weeks after they shed. - Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah, I'm looking at that right now. I've got four clutches now that have hatched and one, one pygmy python clutch. So, getting ready to start the process again. Start the, there we go. - Yeah, yeah. - So I'll probably start having to put your mouse legs and yeah. - I think the only thing I can think of is the African rock pythons where they were sort of saying that the mom and the baby sort of hang out in the nest and, you know, for a bit. And you think maybe that they hang out in a group like that that's like trying to dissuade predators from coming? Like, I'm bigger than. - Yeah. That's hard to say. - I mean, if the moms would just go to town. - Yeah, right? - Yeah. - But I think if, you know, if they made it that far to incubate the eggs, you know, they made it through incubation that two months then they're probably in a pretty secure area. And so maybe that's part of it is, this is a secure spot and I don't think, you know, baby pythons really go out in the open too often. They're usually under something or, you know, hidden away and so that's, you just don't see many juvenile snakes, usually, you know, compared to larger adults and things. - Yeah. - I don't know. Whatever one of my products makes for one of the juvenile and an adult. - That's true. - We'll find a lot of juvenile rabbits. - Not every time, okay. - They pack a little bit more of a punch than the pythons do. - Oh my God. - Yeah. - Anyway, but the thing is that I think, shut up. I think with mom sticking around, I don't think she would stick around to ensure that they would not be eaten because I'm pretty sure if like they kind of moved a little bit and somebody got snagged, she wouldn't be like, "Oh no," and like go chasing after. I think maybe she's just in a good spot plus if it's a python and she incubated, she probably feels like absolute crap coming off those eggs and maybe wants to take a little bit of time. - Oh, I don't know. - She needs to take a little bit of time but the fact that she's protected, she's very close to me and she needs some time. - She can very easily go right over top of them and like roll over a baby or two. - Like actually, you've got some pretty good examples of parental care and reptiles, you know, you're-- - Yeah, I do. - And I don't know if it carries over, but I mean, there is some like nest guarding and king cobras that are similar where they kind of make a nest and stay close-- - You have alligator mothers that will come flying to go in a bunch of baby. - Yeah, they protect them, but they, you know, they might also step on one too. - Yeah, you go over there by accident. - Yeah, there's a bunch for reasons. You know, sometimes you crush. - Exactly, but I mean, the babies kind of stick around the mother for protecting them. - I think they wouldn't. - And, you know, the heron's not going to hang around if there's a giant female, you know, nearby, I think, so. - Yeah. - I don't know if that's the same for the pythons, but I could easily envision that happening where they're-- - Sure. - Especially if they're sticking around together. Similarly, you know, like the timber rattlesnakes, they'll do that too, where the babies hang out, you know, the females almost take turns guarding, right? Like, it's not even their own babies necessarily, no. - Right, yeah. - So, which is kind of fascinating. - Yeah, yeah. So I wouldn't say it's, you know, it's likely that this occurs with pythons too, you know, where they've spent all that time, you know, hanging out with them, and then just to leave them, you know, vulnerable. I think a lot of nature documentaries talk a lot about that. Oh, and now that the babies have hatched-- - Oh, thank you. - The girls away, you know, leaving them to fend for themselves. Or, you know, that's probably set up in a film studio or something like that, right? Yeah, trying to make it look like natural, and she's like, okay, and they just grab some random female and throw her in the truck door where they all get-- - Yeah, yeah. - So, it's hard to say. So, I think my question was, and I sort of ran into this the first time I tried to go around with pygmy pythons, and I think this is where I screwed up, is that like, the metabolism for such a small snake is probably a lot faster than your typical baby python, right? Okay, well, that's, I guess that's the thing with small size, you have greater surface area, so you're probably gonna desiccate easier, you're gonna dry out faster, you're gonna, you know, and then your meal size is smaller, so you might go through that quicker because your metabolism might have to be a little higher for the smaller size, but-- So, I would assume you need to feed more free. So, how do you judge that? Like, what are you looking at as far as like, oh, this one, I gotta feed it, like maybe twice this week, or do you have situations like that? I mean, I think if you're on top of it and feeding once a week, at least, you're probably fine, it's where I skip a week or something like that, and they can decline fairly quickly, and also, sometimes you'll just have one that has been eating fine and looks healthy and looks normal, it just, you know, one day it's dead, so it's hard to say, you know, like, yeah, you know, when you've got numbers, you're gonna expect that to happen, you know, it's gonna happen from time to time, for sure, but, and they require a little bit more attention and care, and that can clash with a person who wants to go out herping more than, you know. - That's just like a damn herb trip. - Yeah, goddamn herb trips, yeah. - At what point do you transition to where you feel comfortable where you don't have to feed as often? Do you change that throughout as they grow? - Well, it seems like, you know, once they, well, at least, once they hit adult size or close to adult size, you know, their average size, they tend to be, you know, you could feed 'em a couple times a year and they probably, you know, 20. - Gotcha, okay. - Yeah, I think they figured that a Stimson's Python needed 20 mice a year to maintain, you know, normal function, do the things it needs to do. I think that was Gavin Bedford that figured that one out. - Right. - So, you know, just to survive, it probably needs half that or something, you know, so they don't need a ton of food once they hit adult size. But when they're small and growing quickly, you know, once a week is probably great, you can probably do it more frequently, but I don't know that that's necessarily that great either, so that kind of balance between too much and too little. - I think we've gone beyond the feeding twice a week, like we used to do, but the, or water, like, so baby white lips and stuff like that, water was something that they absolutely needed. If I was going away, I'd just have somebody come and check their water to make sure that they didn't dry out 'cause they would dry out fast. Is that something, I know that they're maybe from a little bit more of an arid climate, is that something that you don't need to be concerned too much with? - Not as much as normal parameters, like with carpets and stuff. You have water, yeah, like, yeah. - I mean, I'll go in there and sometimes the water bowls are dried out, and if it was a white lip, that would almost be less sentence, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But a pygmy python, especially if it's got a little bit of size on it. - Yeah, no better care. - I mean, when they're smaller, when they're younger, yeah, you probably wanna keep that water bowl topped off and with fresh water and such, but I mean, I can't imagine one in the desert on the middle of nowhere, but at the same time, I think they're utilizing micro habitats that are very humid, so I don't think they're just, you know, they're not going out in the full sun and becoming beef jerky, you know, they're right. - Yeah, I mean, there's probably one that does that, but he's not around anymore. And, you know, therefore, he will not pass his genes any further, so it's that kind of a thing that gets to... - Well, you just see that from us, herping, right? I mean, usually we're eating lunch or dinner or whatever, the one meal a day we get with Rob. (all laughing) - We're stopping at that gas station, we fill up boys, right? - Yeah. - Yep. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah. - So I think, you know, it's really hard to replicate that in our enclosure. I'm actually trying to figure that out 'cause I read some, or looked at some data and it was on WOMAs and they utilized, I mean, they're found in burrows like 75% of the time, and those burrows have like 90% humidity. And so, if they're spending most of their time at 90% humidity, and then we've got them in a sparse cage with, you know, dry... - Oh, rock, yeah. - Exactly, so, you know, I think I wanna try to replicate more of a burrow system when I'm keeping my WOMAs just to make sure that, you know, that's more naturalistic and that they have that humid area that they can hide out in. I think most desert reptiles definitely have some sort of, you know, they're minimizing their loss of water, exposure to sun and, you know, direct sun and things like that. So they're not just passively sitting out there. - Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. - It's like we focus on the, you know, that's such a slippery slope, right? I love that you said that because I often struggle with this. It's like, okay, yes, it's in the desert, but if it's not in that environment that we're in, it's getting away from that. So do we replicate the desert? Or do we replicate the, where it's at, you know? - Yeah, or both, you know, or both. - Yeah. - If you look at Hila monsters in zoos, you know, they often have them in kind of a desert, you know, rocky area. And what are they always doing? Sitting in a water bowl. - That's something, yeah. - In the water bowl. - In the wild, they're down under, you know, they're down under, and they're in a Hila environment. So when they're in a zoo and there's no deep, you know, crack to go down and they're on exhibit and people want to see them, they're sitting in a water bowl because they're probably desiccating, sitting out, you know, on the, the heat of their cage. And I think we do that to a lot of our animals where we slowly, you know, dry them out. And I think we could do better. We could keep better. - Yeah. - Because it hurt better and you can keep better. - Yeah, it's like, well, it's the big monitor lizard. It's like, well, it should be at these temps 'cause that's where the temps are, yeah. But the temp it's at, it's also lives next to a river. Like where it's like, and then, you know what? It gets too hot, it goes to the river. So yeah, there's a lot. - I had a big paradigm shift with Ron St. Pierre. I think it, was it on your show where he was talking about where he missed or-- - The fog? - Yeah, the fog, yeah. - Ah, just, boom on mine, I'm thinking, okay, that makes a lot of sense. 'Cause in the desert, in Utah, it's hot and dry, but if you sleep out overnight, you wake up in the morning and there's a layer of dew or a moisture on your sleeping bag if you're sleeping out under the stars or on your tent, if you're in a tent. So you hit the dew point at some point and there is water. And so if these animals are in this environment, they're coming out in the morning and they're walking through grass that has dew all over it or crawling through a bush or something and then maybe they're sunning to get to their proper temperature and then they're going straight underground or into, there's very few reptiles that are adapted to be out in the heat of the day. - Straight up. - A lot of lizards maybe do that, but for the most part, even the lizards probably tend to find shade or go deep once it gets really hot. I mean, all advancements in herp the culture for the past 13 years have happened on our show. So I mean, that is just, you should take credit for all of them. - All of them, all of them, all of them. - All right, all right, that's both states. - At least you go one, yep, yep, yep. - Yup. - Yeah, that's, yeah, it's sort of like, I was talking to Nipper about this on the trip, right? We were talking about, I came up with this 'cause I have this normal ball python that I'm trying to make sure is superhuman, but I have, yeah, right now, you're shaking your head. - I got it, I got it, I got it, I got it, I got it. It's just one, it's just fine, just fine, it's fine. - Anyway, I take those Chinese takeout containers and I cut a hole in the top. I put the moss in, I wet the moss, but the next step that I do is I take those black hides, like those plastic hides, and I put it over top of that. So it gets, because I found like with those Chinese takeout containers, the top is like, not really given that snake, the security, if you will, that-- - It's clear, yeah. - Nothing that can see, 'cause it's a clear top. So my thought was, if you cover that, and that thing just like pops this little head out, and I thought it would be like it would, it would have to work to get into the hole and find the hole and all that kind of stuff. - Right in. - I thought about flipping those over so that the clear part was the bottom, and-- - Yeah, I'll just have all the moss in the bottom. - Screw you, man. - Nice to be now, Mike. (both laughing) - I'm doing all these extras, and yeah. - Just like, I don't know. - Word it over. (both laughing) - But it still has the hole in the top. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And it's covered, so, you know, I like that idea, and I think that's kind of what I'm shooting for with the Woma's, is to try to find a way to have kind of that two layers where they have to go into one, and then go into another one, and maybe even a third one, you know, and have that bottom one be the really humid area, and then they, you know, progressively less as they move towards the top. Now, how to do that in, you know, NTNTA's 24 inches in there. - I don't know. - Yeah, that's the other challenge is trying to figure out. I mean, you know, when you put like two, you stack them together, and there's like a gap below. And I thought about something like that, and just have a lid on the top one, and then stack it inside another one, but I, you know, I just need to find the right one that has enough, you know, space in there for a clutch. I also thought maybe doing like a termite mound mimic, you know, a lot of the Aussie guys do that, but then have that on top of a Rubbermaid. So they like, like your, your idea where they go into the termite mound, and it may be convoluted. - Yeah, there's like a little mazzy, yeah, get some PVC pipe or something, or send that flexible tubing or something. So they, they have to wind their way down into it. And then they go into the hide box. - Into the hide, which is the bottom with them. - Who was it that had like a four foot cage, and then like a hole? - No, was it? - But like a hole that led to another. - And use a gauge, it sounds underneath. - No, that'll go with just like, yeah, what? - Casey Lazick. - I don't know, what it was just being. - Yeah. - The other four foot cages just filled with mulch, and it was no windows, no nothing. So they would go down and make the burrows. - Oh, there's a cage. - Yes, I'm taking time, okay. - Well, I mean, if you let me finish, but no, we're still talking about clear plastic lids and how you can't figure that puzzle out. But it. - Oh, geez. - Yeah, no, harder than tonight. (laughing) - Both claims and, it's fantastic. - Hard to figure. - Owen's on one. - Owen's on one. - Owen is on one episode. Look what happens when Justin's here. (laughing) - It's too much, sweetly. - It is too much. - It is too much. - You can't do it. - Yeah. - What is handling? - You can't do it. (laughing) - But it was the bottom cages just filled with the tritis, you know, mulch, other stuff like that. And there were no windows, and that was the idea it could come down and make a burrow. I want to say it was somebody's attempt at a full night breeding. - Zack used to say, Steve Christian said the same thing. - Right. - John Christian said the same thing way back in the day, when he was on. He said that if he was going to breed Bolinai, what he would do is exactly what you would say. - That's the, okay. - And allow it to go down into the kingdom. - A different cage. - Yeah. - You basically make a burrow for it. - Right. - I know Frank Gries did that. He got like big black trash cans and filled it with sticks and leaves and stuff like that. - Right, yeah. - And he bred klubas like that. He'd, they could go down and weave their-- - Make good. - Make a big item in there, yeah. - Yeah. - And he's crazy. - I mean, I'm finding more and more that like putting PVC pipe, tubes, doors and stuff like that, they'll just go, like, you're like, oh, maybe it won't do that. It will. It'll go right through it and does not care. So I'm looking at combining a bunch of shit. There gonna be tunnels all over this place. It's gonna look like a hamster maze in my goddamn room at some point. - And then you can have like the Philadelphia Zoo at those places. - Exactly. - You gotta go for the tigers. (laughing) - Hamster tunnels all over. - Hamster tunnels everywhere. - Sitting there watching TV of Python just going through it. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Where's it going? Don't know. (laughing) - McIntire City. - Exactly. But I think that's probably a consistent theme with desert reptiles, especially desert pythons, you know, where they're gonna seek an area of microclimate or of the humid area, or they live in kind of a semi-tropical, you know, area where they get enough moisture in the environment or humidity or whatever it is so they can be out and about. - Yeah. - I mean, they get a moisture from prey too. - Mm-hmm. Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. I guess the other thing was that chameleon podcast. That was the other thing that blew in mind was thinking about how they're breathing in their liquid. They're not drinking it. They're breathing it in. And like a chameleon that's licking, you know, drops off of leaves is probably completely dehydrated and desperate. - Tying. - Yeah. - Last step. - Last step to live, yeah. - Yeah. - The gaining weight overnight just by breathing your humid, you know, the foggy air is crazy. Another, you know, mind blown. - So what stumps me is, and I don't know, 'cause I think it was the retic lounge you were talking about this where you were saying that you, you know, the Western Simpsons, the pygmies, you have like solid success, you know, because basically you live in Utah, very low humidity, et cetera, et cetera. So it's easier for you to sort of replicate say that environment where say on the East Coast, it's easier for us to do humid type of environments, et cetera, et cetera. So, but my fault with that is it's like, if that snake is trying to get to the humid spot, then why is it not responsible? Like the people on the East Coast may have a harder time with desert species. Why does that not play out, you know what I mean? - I think they need the option of not having humidity too, you know, I think to come out from a human environment into a humid environment is probably, you know, what the issue is. - That's the key, right? - I don't know. I mean, that's kind of what that's what I would think would be the issue is, you know, West Coast versus East Coast or humid versus non-humid, you know, my Ben's wife, she's from Virginia, when she moved out to Utah, she went, why are people spraying water on their grass? What is wrong with, you know, what's going on there? It's like a foreign concept, you know, to water your lawn. And, you know, I think, I don't think lawn should be allowed in Utah this year. - I mean, that's the other part, yeah. - Yeah, but, you know, I think, you know, the same thing, desert adapted animals are definitely adapted to that drier environment. And so even though there's still something that they're a humid, you know, a humid micro environment, they still need that dry air. So that's what they're adapted to. And so if they don't have that option, you know, there might be problems. I think that's a big issue with green rats, right? That are, although Casey Lazick has good success with those in Washington, which is pretty humid up in Seattle area. So maybe he's figured something out there, but I don't know, he's got trash cans. - Yeah, that's, yeah, he's a trash cans whole of dirt. - I guess it just goes back to that old cosmic octopus. There's just so much at play that, you know, trying to replicate is just, you know. - Well, yeah, there's sometimes some people's setups work better, but then also it depends, like they just happen to get those animals. - Yeah, there's so many little things that could play at anybody's, you know, setups or cages that, even the cages that they're using could be, you know, could be a difference. - For sure, yeah, it's hard to nail it down, you know. And I would, I would, I think I would be a miss to say, oh, I figured it out. This is exactly why this is happening. You know, there's, there's a lot of factors at play. And, you know, it could be the temperature swings. We get really good temperature swings here. You guys probably have similar temperature swings there where it gets really cold in the winter and gets really warm. So you don't really have, you know, you don't have much of a challenge to get them down to those lower temperatures in the winter time. - It's easier to ride the wave down and then ride it back up. - Yeah, I'll fight it. - I noticed as of now, though, it's like, it seems like it's just like, boom, summer. - Yeah. - Like right now, it's like a hundred degrees. - There's like, now it's more of an elevator plummet. - I think that happens in the wild too. I mean, around here was what a hunt. You know, it was close to, it was up in the 80s, high 80s or 90s. And then, right, the last two days of like the highs been 60, you know, it's like just clap it in 30 degrees in, you know, within the space of a couple of days. You know, I always laugh when people bring their stuff out of brumation and they gradually, I'm going to increase the temperature one degree every day, every day, every two days, optimal 80 degrees. You know, in nature, it's just like, boom, it's freezing. Now it's... - What? - Oh, yeah. - It's unbearable. - Yeah, it's a wild, warm freezing. - Now it's cold again, exactly. - Yeah, oh yeah, now it's going to go back in. I'm a cold front through. And I think animals, no, I mean, I went out herping today. I saw, you know, very little, no snakes. I saw a few lizards running around, but I thought, you know, maybe since the colder temperatures, stuff will come out. But I think snakes are really smart, especially in this area because cold means death. And so, you know, they're going to seek, you know, that stable area if there's any kind of idea that the temperature is going below freezing. And, you know, it did get down, I think, there was a frost warning over the last couple of days. So, you know, it got really cold and even though it was really hot, just a few days ago. So, yeah, it's kind of crazy. And it's supposed to get back up into the high 80s, you know, at the end of the week. So, it's just kind of one of those cold fronts moving through. Nature is brutal. Nature changes very quickly. And, you know. - Right. - And I think that's, you know, you talk about some of those, you know, Keith talks a lot about this where, you know, a wild snake just seems to be more firm and tough and, you know, muscular, you know. - 'Cause all the weak ones are dead. - Yeah. - Like, it was exactly. It's, so, yes, you could gradually tick it up or you could, like, ramp it up. But then, you know what? So, you're gonna find out real quick if your guy in the box is a weak one. Like, it's, yeah, I mean. - Yeah, it's true. I mean, we don't really, we pamper our little-- - We also, we also bred so many genetic deformities into them. We've set them up to fail in most kind of situations. - So, I mean, just in general, you know, moving around, having those switches, moving from a, you know, having rough substrate or rock or dirt or whatever, you know, it's a black mouse as opposed to a white mouse. I don't even eat the white mice. Go to hell. Like, it's, give their wild counterparts a chance. They don't care, they don't look at color. They're, they're, they're non-mouse racist. - I have several wild caught white lips and they're like, this is fucking great. We're like, it's a-- - I'll take whatever you go. - I'll take whatever you want. - Pigeon does better. - You know, whatever, dude. - Yeah, you get third, third generation. I would like a-- - I would like, no, no, no, no, no. - 15 grand white mouse. It wasn't in downs facing northeast and now I can't eat it. - Yeah, what? - Yeah. - Have you noticed any, well, I guess this would be across all the interregia, but have you noticed a, as the generations move forward that they may be easier to get going than they were, say? - Yeah, most definitely. I mean, the children's pigeons take, take pinkies right off the bat. They're, they're not hard. And I mean, you see that with other species. You know, you got the western hognos is that don't even probably know what a toad smells like anymore. And they just come out of the egg looking for rodents, you know, and I think, you know, nature's adaptable. And, and I think, especially in herpeticulture, it has to be because whatever doesn't take a white lab mouse or a rat is going to probably phase out of herpeticulture because nobody wants to go to trouble to do anything besides that, you know? So it's, it's kind of tricky that way. And, and, you know, somebody might be a champion like Owen, you know, you'll go source fish and frogs and things like that. But, you know, well, your customers, are they going to get impatient and say, this is too much effort, I got to get out of this, you know? - That is, and I think you'll see this too, Justin, which is like, you have people who are like, I want this and I want this now. I like, do you fire back with, okay, but this is what you'd have to do to keep it like, the skin of mouse leg and feed it a drumstick. They're like, oh wait, that's what I thought. (laughing) For me, it's like, I want it now. Yeah, well, it's on frog meat. So you want to wait a little bit or do you want it now? - Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I think if there were more opportunities or more resources or that information was out there, like where to buy that frog meat or where to buy that, you know, it might depend on if you live in a big city or that kind of stuff. And with the availability of shipping, just about anything these days, you could probably source it somewhere or raise, you know, raise your own. I started a couple of colonies of Geckos to, with the idea of, I'll use these for Tereija, but yeah, I got attached to the lizards and so I got that to buy those Geckos and warning Geckos and things. So I would probably have to be pretty desperate to resort to feeding a lizard. But I do see, you know, as successive generations. For example, the Western Stimson's, they, when I got those, I had, you know, I had a pair and bred them and the babies were a headache. They were really a challenge to get feeding. But this last year, I don't think I had any holdouts really. They all took pretty readily, I think, even on the first or second or third try, you know. There's a really nice trick with Western Stimson, if you take a frozen pinky and throw it into boiling water, it kind of cooks it and it thaws it really fast and kind of cooks it. So it's almost a different consistency. You know, it's a little more rubbery and stuff, but they go wild for that. Unfortunately, that hasn't worked so well with the pygmy pythons, but the Western Stimson's love that. So if they don't take on the first, second or third try, then I'll boil a frozen thaw pinky and throw that in there and that usually gets to the armory. You're like, you know, yeah, I'll. - And I learned that from a colubrid breeder. So yeah, that works really well with colubrids too, apparently certain, and it may depend on the species. I don't know, but you could try it. It doesn't hurt, you know, it just cooks them. - Yeah, that's right, right. - And this has been my favorite pastime of the last couple of years of going to the farmer's market and being like, I wonder. And then when they like, hoover it, you're like, check. - Okay, we'll eat it too. - Okay, so buy stock, get more chicken. - He has a separate kitchen just for his animals. (laughing) - It's a good time set up. - I think this is kind of that movement towards, you know, less is more larger caging, more naturalistic keeping, and things like that, where you have fewer animals, well, this doesn't apply to Owen because he's just- - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - No one thought that, I mean, come out. - But, you know, we're talking about knocking down walls and expanding over here, baby. (laughing) - Exactly. So, you know, if you have fewer animals, then maybe a specialized animal's not that big of a deal. You know, if you're just writhing with one or two or whatever. - That's all the thing that you don't have to breed. So, if you want to get a really nice tank set up and you want to spend the money to get like one of those, like, or you want to source Facebook marketplace and get like a 50 gallon and all of that stuff and set it up and get one antiresia to set up and have a little piece of Australia in there, do it. And then, yeah, if it's a little weird or finicky sometimes and you got to go get something you can or do it as a treat. - Yeah, I was much more successful when I had a pair of children's pythons and I could also reach baby and spend, you know. Now that you've got 60, you know, baby antiresia to feed, it's a little weird. - Yeah, I need you to do this or I'm going to move on to the next guy, let's go. And so, but I do think, you know, that if you, you know, have fewer animals that just definitely makes it easier on yourself and, and yeah, you don't have to breed. I don't think the pyramid scheme of hermpticultural will really fall apart if people just keep-- - Stop breeding. - Yeah. - Keep feeding. I mean, definitely somebody needs to breed, but-- - 'Cause somebody's got to do something, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, I kind of like the idea, I think just overall that I don't know why that message wasn't put out sooner and as far as just from snake breeders, right? Because you're selling to somebody that's going to potentially be your competition at some point. And like, we all know, we've all had those situations where you've had these animals and you're sort of the one that's sort of, let's say, the founder of this line or whatever it would be. And then, you know, you lose animals and then somebody you're buying from somebody that you sold to, you know, it's just the, you know, and I guess that's a good thing that they're doing it. But like when you have all these people competing for the, you know, especially when you have people that are just going after the hottest thing, I think with ball pythons, that probably maybe crested geckos and the leopard geckos is there's so many morphs that you're sort of not having the same thing. But with the species that we kind of keep, you kind of all, you know what I mean? It's like you kind of all are having, there's nothing that's going to separate, you know, the three of us, if we're all breed in antiresia. So the idea that you're sort of getting more people that say, I don't have to breed as opposed to, when I was getting back into it, it was like, if you don't breed, you're a loser. - I mean, you know what I mean? So I kind of like that it's then you sell two instead of one, you know, like that's, I think that's kind of the idea why people push that so much. But yeah, and I do think, you know, there needs to be a balance. You do have to have champions of species other than yourself or else, you know, once you, I call it the bus effect. If you get hit by a bus, who's, you know, who's going to be, you know, the champion of that species after you're gone. And a lot of times you see people like, you know, Bert Langworth, you know, passes away. And then all of a sudden Australian water dragons become impossible to find or, you know, very difficult to find and then very few people. And, you know, not that nobody's working with them, but when you have somebody who's producing so many of them, it's really hard to be second fiddle to that, 'cause who's going to buy from you if they're buying from you or if, you know, and he's producing numbers and so he can sell them for less and they're, you know, maybe a challenging piece. It's a pair versus if you have 12, you know, batteries. - Yeah, right. - Five females. - Yeah. - Maybe a better way to say that it is, there's a better balance between the two worlds. - Responsible in breeding. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a better balance that wears everybody's just throwing snakes together. - Yeah. - Why aren't you selling? - Yeah, exactly. - I mean, what is it? I could have paired eight private pythons this year, if I wanted to, and I would not like you. I could have done, yeah, eight or 10 pairs. - Right. - Western Stimpsons pythons, you know, and just, but if you still have kids from last year, why the hell would I do it? Like, why am I, it used to be that way. It used to be I would just pour more onto the fire, but it's like, we don't need to do that. And I'm still, I am sitting here thinking about whether or not my olive pythons are gonna get the green light this year. 'Cause I still have babies from last year. And there's no point in adding another 20 baby olive python. - There should be some reason. - By the way. - Yeah. - Yes. - Yeah. - Turns out that all my olive pythons are males. That is unfortunate. (laughing) That is bad. - Well, you won't have to... - They're all male males. - You don't have to wear it out, maybe. - Well, do you need some girls? 'Cause I got girls, you know? - Oh, God. - We may have to talk. - I'm gonna send up hair of my adults to you. 'Cause then I don't have to house them anymore. You can check off the box and then there were the instructions. - I got two kids. - The other big challenge too of, you know, especially in regards to antiresias, there just people don't really know about them. You know, they're not one of those first snakes that you think of when you think of python. You know, you think carpet or bermise or something all right on or, you know, those kind of things. And they just kind of get missed a little bit. And, you know, I don't know. Maybe there's no THF. Is that the old school books or, you know. - Yeah, it'll be easier whatever the little $10 books that you can buy. That's probably a good idea to put one of those out so people can spend time. - All we do is invite who writes books all the time. - I've thought about that a lot. I need to talk to Bob and see, you know, how much it would, how, if I can just adapt one of the large, shrink one of the larger books down in just the, you know, here's the core information. Yeah, just, and then sell, you know, one for each species or something like that. And so people know, oh, this is an option. Or these are, these are cool. You know, this is neat to see. - I mean, I would prefer that over then, like, some of the books that you get at, like, you wander through pet stores. And, you know, every once in a while, you go to the pet store, pet smart Pekka, whatever. We're all reptile guys. So you wander through the reptile section to see what's there just for giggles. And every once in a while, you do see, like, a children's python or something. - Yeah. - That's a little bit farther up. And you're like, well, then they hand you a little care sheet, which is clearly the same care sheet they handle to everybody for us, Nick. - Yeah. - And it's like, well, I don't know about that. But even at the shows, I think you'll see maybe one or two and Teresa had a show, unless there is a breeder like you, who brings a good amount. - Yeah. - Like, you'll see him at the flipper tables or something. - Exactly. Like I'll say there was a, I have not seen an antiregia breeder at any of the shows that I've end. Or somebody who brings antiregia, but I did see a pair of children's on a flipper table two shows ago. - Yeah. Well, we're going to change that because I just think that they're just, so like, you were talking about it. You were talking about books, right? So I think for me, right? This was my go-to book. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And it had all of the pythons and boas in it. So like, you would flip through it and you're just, you know, you're just, just by looking at the different pictures in there. You're like, oh, I like this one, I like that one. But you're still getting exposed to all of them as opposed to the books today seem to be more focused, which is great. - Yeah. - It's very into that species. But for the younger people, there's not one of these type of books where, or at least I don't think there is. Am I wrong? - I mean, at least not an updated one. - Yeah. - Right. That's another good idea, you know, just to have kind of that basic, you know, knowledge picture book almost of just all of them. - Right, yeah. - At least all the ones that may be available in captivity or something, you know. - Right. - And so many people can see the choices. - Right, that was the thing is like, I've been dreaming about this Nick since I saw it in a picture in this book or something like that or described in this thing. - Yeah. - So it's like, that's like, those are the building blocks is kind of how it goes up. - Yeah. I think for me, it was pythons of the world, Australia, by the barkers, just seeing all the Australian pythons in one spot, having multiple pictures of each in the wild. It was just, I could just stare at those pictures for, for every, you know. And then I love that kind of Easter egg in the habitat shot for one of them and it had a Pilbara rock monitor in the shot, you know. - Yeah. - Just hanging out on a rock. I'm like, oh, look at that. Yeah. And, you know, so that's, that's kind of what, what got me excited about some of the lesser cap species like the anteria was seeing them in that book. I think that's kind of what got me turned on to the anteria in the first place and seeing the variety. I mean, that was kind of the idea with the complete children's python book was to show the variety of, of looks, you know, in the wild, all trying to do just all wild individuals but just seeing all the diversity and variety that you can get just within that genus of four or five species is, is pretty spectacular. - Do you have a favorite out of all of them? - I really love the Western stems, the, the weebels. They're just so cool looking and their behavior. I just, I just really get excited but I do say that the pygmies are a close second. I love pygmies pythons. They're just really cool. All the wild pygmies, none of them tried to strike or bite or anything like that. You would think a small python, we kind of have that little man syndrome and meet me. - Oh, yeah. - I don't know why everybody, you know? None of them were, were strikey or defensive in any way. They just kind of, okay. You got me, no big deal. That was pretty cool. So, and you know, I don't know if I would say the same about, what about the children I did you guys get? Did they strike at you or try to bite? - No. - Yeah. - No. - All the neighbors see them at Eric's, so. - I don't think I've ever been bitten by a wild anterasia. The Stimson's pythons were chill. The, you know, the Western stems and the Spotted's, you know? I don't remember them. Maybe the Spotted's were a little feisty but, you know, they're just trying to get away more than strike, biting or anything. - I mean, out of the captive ones, I would say the Spotted's are probably the ones that are most, I call it Rosie Bo-esque where it's just like, you know, they're just like, "Baa!" - Yeah. But to the same point, wild Rosie Bo-es don't really bite, you know, it's just the captives that are used to, door opens, food comes in, I'm gonna go for it. I'm hungry here. I'm ready. Yeah, same with the Spotted's and the Children's. I mean, all of the entries, like that's usually when I take a bite is I'll open the cage and they'll fly out trying to grab whatever is warm near them, you know? They're just, they just love to eat their food. - Yeah. - And usually, you know, once you get them out, they're not, I mean, the Children's Pythons are still like, "I bet I could take this, I could eat this." You know, same with the Spotted's, you know, there's like, "I could still eat this." But the Stimson's are like, "Okay, yeah, I'm not messing with it." - I give up. - It's bigger than me, yeah. And they're pretty chill once you get them out. Same with the Pygmies. They don't really try to bite me too much once I have them in hand, you know, out of the cage. So, as long as they don't think it's time to eat their, their cool. - And I assume that breeding them is the same as breeding pythons. There's nothing special you have to do as far as. - They're probably the easiest to breed. I mean, I think that's typical. Like usually the smaller things have to breed more readily and breed more frequently because, yeah, there's lots of things that eat them because they're smaller. And they also having a smaller adult size means they reach maturity faster, you know? So like within a year and a half or two years, they're probably the size that they can breed at. So, you know, that that's kind of the smaller species mentality. Get big fast so I can reproduce myself before I get eaten by something. You know, make more of myself. And so they are fairly easy to breed, at least for the most part, assuming you're, you know, keeping them properly and. - But yeah, they haven't been too challenging. - I find it, I found it kind of, well, I was like rereading the part of the book with the big pythons and the complete children's python part. And it was talking about male combat. And I was like, "Oh, these little guys, they combat." Like, that's pretty cold for the time, those things. Like there have been some, I mean, that's, I don't know that that's ever been observed in the wild. Those are captive individuals. But, you know, if they do it in captivity, there's a chance they're going to do it in the wild as well. So, yeah. - I think I read a paper or an article. It was an article recently where they thought that maybe that the fact that snakes, just in general combating could be not only for breeding, but could be like defending a territory or, you know, defending a mate or, well, yeah, I guess I would be the same as that. But like, you know, which I was like, oh, I never thought about it in any other way, except the idea of them just trying to breed and whoever wins is the, you know, the winner of the female. But, I don't know, I like the fact that we're at a time where I guess like it's trying to figure out a species, just a group of animals that are just impossible to study in the wild, you know, because that's just how they are. And like, people are making advancements with understanding them a little more. It's time to be alive. - Yeah, I'm gonna tell you. - What a time to be alive, yeah. - I think the answer is you would probably be a good study animal just because, you know, again, where they're smaller, you can have a higher population density, perhaps, compared to some of the other species where they're a little younger. - I was like, Dale, Dale has that whole breeding because he's so small there, yeah. - Yeah, he's done quite a few studies using children's pythons as the example, just because they're size and they're rapid maturity and, you know, that kind of thing. - Yeah. - And the fact that they're good mothers, I really like how we emphasize that, you know, you can take their eggs away, do all these measurements, give them back and they'll wrap them right up, you know, whereas like, if you mess with the woma's eggs, they're done, you know. - Guys, no, no, no, no. It's a just in memory by the time you're problem. - I only had them for five minutes. - Nope, I'm done with those. - I just moved to, have you done internal incubation with your interiesia? - Oh, yeah, yeah, there's a graph in the book that from a piggy python where I put a little temperature probe in her inner-- - It was the size of her head, probably. - It was the, it was plus, I mean, maybe a little bit bigger than one of her eggs, but it was a pretty small, a little temperature sensing device. And it was interesting because the clutch, according to this, and again, I don't know if this was not calibrated properly or if it was reading the correct temperatures, but it was getting over 90 degrees, like 90 degrees for the clutch where she was keeping them. And I moved her and she moved right back to that spot. So yeah, they're-- - No, mine. - They all hatched out and it worked out really well. So I've done a, I've, I've internally incubated pygmies, children's, stimpsons, I don't know, I don't think I've done spottids, but yeah, that's-- - And you got it now. - They're great, that, I think my first clutch, I did maternal incubation with the children's. So that was my first incubation I did was maternal incubation. So they're good for that because they do, you know, generally wrap the eggs pretty well and are good little mothers. So you have your cage set up properly, you know, yeah. - What size clutch are we looking at? Like how many individual eggs, like low side, high side? - Yeah, for a pigment python, probably low, you'll get three, three to four eggs. And I've had up to 15 or 16, I think. So maybe even 18, I think 15 might be my high for pygmy pythons and then like up over 20 for some of the other species, yeah. - Oh, the other one, for sure, wow. - So they can have pretty good size clutches. - Yeah, that's, that's like-- - It's typically like 10 to 12 is, you know, in a well fed, you know, captive female. - I mean, that sounds like a shrunken down version of an Australian python where it's like, we're like ball python. So like, you got 10, holy shit, she must be huge. Just like, wait, like, I don't, so it's that kind of stuff. So it's cool to kind of see that kind of go over. Oh, what happened with that one? Just like that spike went real low. - Yeah, yeah, there was, I can't remember what happened in the room. I think the heater went out or something or something happened. - Yeah, this is where she got off them and quit. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then I realized, I'm like, oh crap, I gotta turn that back on. But yeah, so, I mean, you could see those temperature fluctuations, they got down there pretty low and got up there pretty high. So yeah, they're tough, tough individuals. And I think, you know, that probably reflects what they're experiencing in the wild. There's probably some highs and lows that they, that's why they're wrapped around their eggs, you know, to kind of prevent, protect them a little bit, to loosen the coils if it gets too hot or to tighten them up if it gets too cold and that kind of thing or shiver. I don't know if these shiver, but you know, certain pythons will increase the temperature of the eggs by either basking and then coming back to the clutch or by shivering to warm them up. And I do think, you know, we like to think that eggs need to be constant, 89 degrees or else they're gonna fail. We're all gonna die in the wild. They have the hatcher than this window of time. Otherwise, we just start cutting it, ripping babies out, yeah. - Exactly. So I think, you know, definitely they're, they're tougher than they, then we give them credit for that, or we have in our mind. - What's the next set, if you get past a certain point, they want to hatch, like it's, you're probably gonna have it and it's like, okay. - So, unless they're a black man, - Unless they're a black man. - They're a black man. - Yeah, right. - Oh. - They frickin' messed up animal and we cannot tackle all the blackhead problems in that show. - Yeah, that's pretty weird. - That's good. - Okay. - Notice that's the only Australian python that I don't have. - That's my God. I don't know if I want to go down this road, but I'm finally start feeding on their own and they're, they are just solid. They're such cool. - They're so pretty. - Yeah. - Oh my gosh. - They're gorgeous animals and I would, it's only a matter of time before I mess up and do that. Like it's, it's only a matter of time for all my hair. - Yeah. - Yeah, blackheads, blackheads. - Yeah. - I think I'll be there before you. - I think I'll be there before you. - No, that's what you need to be. - Like I need you to take the blackheads. I need you to take the antiretia so that I don't have to. Like I keep doing with my bowels and large colubrids and other weird stuff over here. Don't make me. - I do. That's why I wanted to do the show. I think that antiretia is kind of like, I think we have to kind of do what we did for carpets and chondros and dispel those misconceptions. And I think that just like as far as a pet python, like in a naturalistic enclosure, I mean, you can't beat it. - Oh yeah. - They're really, they are, they are fun. What is it? I did a, I did a talk at a hermological society and I brought one of your stems, Eric. And then I brought like the same age olive python. - Maybe help. - With me. And it was like, it was that kind of a thing to kind of go over that stuff. So they are really cool. And I think you should breed them because then I'll have something different to sell on my tables because you're not sure. - Yeah, sure. - You don't want to talk to them. - Yeah, yeah. - There's so enough things. I don't want to sell anymore. Before we let Justin go though, I wanted to throw this out because I, it's, I was, you know, in preparing for the episode. I went to his website. So if you haven't been to Australia, I'll show you what it takes me back. (laughing) - Remember how we used to stare at this website? - I used to get it all the time. - It was one day you had to have a two-letter animal. - I had the bookmark, like at his, we'll leave his, I had a, I'd be like shopping, never buying, but shopping. - Like it was, I was like this. I remember when I first stumbled upon the website, Justin, and I was sort of like, oh, this is my kind of guy. It's a whole Australian Python. (laughing) Anyway, there's a, there's a little tab here where it's visits and it's, you've, you've, you've done a lot of visiting. - Oh, oh my goodness. - Yeah, all the trips and everything either. But yeah, it's a quite a few, quite a few trips, especially if they were photo-heavy, you know, and just kind of use this to photo-dump. - And dump everything in. - Try to remember the trip myself, you know, go back and see. - Sure. - I want to go to Rep Hall Gardens. I really do. - I think the coolest thing was, is that, I guess I haven't been here since, like, but then I look at, like, you know, what was it, West Texas and Utah. - Arizona. - Oh, yeah, we were always like, oh, yeah, look. (laughing) - You're probably seeing the view in there, Eric. - Yeah. - Yeah, there you are. - Yeah, there you are. (laughing) - Yeah, you know, it's a big round. - You chose to use in the boat. (laughing) - Yeah. - I'm looking at my feet. It's like, oh, and Megan there. - Yeah, I am. (laughing) - But it's, it's really awesome that, you know, you're doing this. - And like that, yeah. - Like you go back and look and I love the fact that you sort of have a little diagram and then you got a species list at the bottom. - You didn't think of this snake you made in the middle of the road out of rocks to kind of deter us. Or was that a different trip? - There was this is Owen's trip. - And it was Owen's trip, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Well, you make peeking off the side. Oh, by the way, Justin, I was watching a video of the hike 'cause we did it during the nighttime. So you can really see what the hike looked like. So I was looking at the hike from somebody doing it during the day. And there's quite a lot of making peeking parts. - Yeah, yeah. - I told you, I was not gonna write, yeah. - I can tell that, yeah. You look over the edge a little bit and you can, you don't see anything down there. And like, my beam probably doesn't go too terribly far, but that's a long drop if I take 'em. - Yeah, no. - It was pretty cool. It was pretty cool though to see the actual hike. And there was this older couple and they got to, like, they were starting at the steps. And I was like, that was the toughest part for me. Was those three steps. - Right? - He's like right there. Why didn't they make 'em stop at all? - Why didn't you like, what? - At the very end. - Also, you made him walk to the car when he got to the parking lot. You couldn't have brought it around for him. Come on. - I was sleeping. - I had to drive. - I was like, yeah, that's what I'm saying. - I was like, I hope Justin's not waiting for me. And I hope he gets up there way ahead of me so he can sleep for a little while. - That was the plan. - How the hell is he gonna drive after this? - Just run so I can get as much sleep as possible. So. - Seems like an odd plan, but whenever it works. - Take your time. (laughing) - I hope you make it. - Yeah. I think my, I looked at my rate going up the car, it's the same as it was going down. - Geez. - I think I was spending a lot of time looking and going slow on the way down. So that's not saying too much, but yeah. - Wow. Yeah, that's just, it's really cool. You can see all the plan. Just even some of the places you've been in Australia, you know, if you're into that and just like, I love how you did, you know, like a little. - Oh, that's cool. - Yeah, some herb diaries and stuff. Yeah, some are a little more detailed. I think lately, I've just put the pictures up with the little, you know, blur bunch of things. - That's the thing, yeah. - I used to go through and do like a, almost like a journal type thing, but I probably should do that, but I just, it's so much faster just to dump the photos and do a capture. - But at least it's here. - You know, it's accessible. So, you know, and we're of course gonna be like, the problem is you're gonna be the biggest critique of this thing than anybody else. Other people are just gonna do it with the fact that it's freaking here, you know? - Yeah, that 2013 trip was, Australia 2013 was when I, with the thorny devil pattern, that's the one where I did. - Out in the winter. - Yeah, that's the pygmy python trip. That purple line was, somewhere in that purple line was where we saw them. Somewhere in there. - Someone in this general area. - In that general area, yeah. And then, yeah, they're down, yeah, towards the bottom. But yeah, that's a-- - So what did you fly into Perth and then just did a big-- - Yeah. - Wow. - That was a lot of, yeah, a lot of travel. And you can tell where we spent more time where the lines are a little shorter versus where we just drove, you know? - Yeah. - Right, right. - That's, I think I really wanna get out there to WI for sure. - Yeah, it's one of the best places in Australia to Herp. - And I have money saved for Kimberly. - Yeah. - Looking at your earmarked, Kimberly. I will-- - That's Cara Jeannie, man. Cara Jeannie is the most beautiful place on earth. I love it there. And see that waterfall? You know, what's his name? Frank Colicico, he went there with, yeah, who saw him and they found a Centrelian blue tongue in that waterfall. I'm like, just climbing up the rocks right next to the waterfall. And he's like, is that a Centrelian? What? - Oh my God. - Don't even get all the walk that I know. - Yeah. - Yeah, I still need to see one of those living. I've seen three or four hit by cars or five. Yeah. Frustrating. - Wow. - Yeah, that's wonderful. - Such a cool place. - And then, you know, yeah, I jumped off that waterfall. - So you have to, right? - That's where I got dung in the butt. I was up on top of there. I thought I got shot. Something stung me on the butt cheek. And I thought somebody, like some Aboriginal was shooting at me because it said don't, you know, don't go up here, whatever. And I'm like, I even did it. - They did, they were serious. - Yeah, but it was some little delicate wasp 'cause I got stung again on the next year, the trip that I did with Steve Sharp and Mike. And I, yeah, he saw it. He saw it land on me. And then I'm like, "Ah, what? "Some shot me in here." He's like, "Oh, this is this tiny little wasp." I just, I didn't think it was that big of a deal, but I think, oh, and those, those Pilbara rock. That's one of my favorite places too. That's a Python pool area, so cool. And just to sit and watch, Pilbara rock monitors run around the rocks. It was just an incredible experience. - Ah, look at that cool, cool lizards. (laughs) - Yeah, I think I can go on the week there. And that's where you can see the Barens' olives and the Pilbara rocks and all sorts of stuff. - I'll grab me a Barens' olives. - Yeah, I still need to see one of those in the wild too. I was really close when we were in Caragini by that waterfall. We had walked to the other end of the canyon and we met some people along the way and I'm like, "Have you seen any snakes?" And they're like, "Oh yeah, we saw a big brown one just right by the star." I'm like, "What?" That's why I went running back. (laughs) - Color on that carpet right there. - Ah, that's, yeah. - Ah, I mean, why don't the captive Inbracotta look like that in us? - Why don't one of them? - Yeah, why don't they look out of the black ones, you know? - Period. - Those things are so gorgeous. - Oh my gosh. - Damn, that is pretty. - That's probably one of the prettiest snakes I've seen in the wild. I love that. - Small part of your brain was like smuggle it. (laughs) - Well, that was that one. It was the last day of the trip. I was supposed to fly out the next morning. - Steve, it was all coming together. - And I'm like, Heidi, we gotta stay in this area 'cause we saw like D-O-R's in this, like they've gotta be thick around here. And so I'm like, "Hi, we gotta stay 'til dark." And she's like, "Okay." (laughs) 'Cause we were supposed to stay at my friend's house and we was expecting us around like eight or nine o'clock. And then we roll in at midnight, you know? (laughs) - Sorry, there was a carpet python I had to sit in. - They would understand. - Yeah, yeah, yes. - I said, "Give me 30 minutes after sunset and if we don't want to dump it." - And sure enough, that thing. - Look at that. - Wow, look at the colors. - Oh yeah, very cool. - Yeah, wow. - And that's my crappy, you know, photography skills. So think of what it would have looked like if Rob would have taken-- - Oh, he'd be able to count this because of his head scale. Yeah, so we need to go back there and-- - Also, yes. - 30 minutes after dark with Rob, it's like, "Well, if he finds it, now we're gonna be here for two hours." (laughs) - Yeah. - Well, Justin does the thing where he's like, "Okay, you're gonna be taking pictures. I'm gonna take a carpet." - I know, I know. - I'm gonna get back and be like, "Look what I found." - There's like three more over there, guys. It's like, "Okay, it's okay." - Just like I've seen this one and then he wanders off and then he finds more or-- - Yeah. - Well, I guess the moral of the story is, is that if you, you know, haven't been to Justin's site with the visits, and available, you should be available. - Yeah, that's what's available. - Oh, you wanna be-- - It's not very updated. - Yeah, I wouldn't check that, so-- - No one wants to go to Africa. - Yeah, so. - It doesn't even load. - Question mark now. - It's not there anywhere. I need to fix some of the links on some of the pages, yeah. (laughs) - That's all good. - But yeah, Australianaddiction.com, if you wanna check it out, go see all my visits. - Yes. - It's very cool. - If you want available animals, contact me directly. I'll tell you what I got. - You will look there. - Yeah, don't look at those sites. - Yeah, I feel bad. I used to be much better at updating, and I used to do the what's new, and have all the updates for every single client. - That's how I went back and figured out when I got pygmy pythons, 'cause I went back on that, and I could see, 'cause I don't remember, you know. - I don't even, like, I had 'em be a driver. - You're turning the website into, like, a data dump, where the, where is that shit? There it is. - Exactly. - Like, yeah. - Yeah, I went back on the wayback machine too, and you can see how the page evolved. It's kinda cool. - Yeah. - Oh, yeah, that's fun. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. - So. - All right, so yeah, Australianaddiction.com, reach out to you if you have some things available. If you're into Interregia, this is the guy to talk to. He's kinda got the goods. And he's also a podcaster on the NPR network. - What? - How fun club. - Check it out. - What is that? - Yeah. - My God. - Very, very cool. - Next episode is Corey Martin. I don't know how I missed that one, but that kinda goes out of sync with your Herpin stories at the beginning, so. - Yeah, what am I? (all laughing) - I don't know, Owen. I've been, I feel like I'm back on my game, but for, like, I think squadcasters made me-- - Stop saying that. - Stop saying that. - Every full stone. - Every full stone. - Every tonal stone. - Every tonal stone. - Every time you're like, "I feel like we're back on." - We're like, "We're full stone." Every time you're like, "We're back on our game." Something happened to me, we missed three weeks of recording. So, we're not back on the game. We know nothing, we're just stumbling around in the dark. - Good boy, good boy, Owen. I like how you're thinking. - Thank you. - I mean, the fact that you guys have been going so long, I think you know what you're doing. You're doing a great job. (all laughing) I mean, you get a little brief. - Yeah, you get some slack for sure. If you miss a couple of weeks, nobody can complain. - Don't forget this, you say? - Oh yeah. - Most people have their traumas spread out over years. (all laughing) Mine's got to be compacting to have mine right now. It's like, "Yeah, your life's been too easy for a while." Here you go, four months of misery. - But really, how's it been? - Yes, all right. - But interspersed with good, good herb trips. I mean, you know, that's the thing. - Oh, heck yeah, man. - Yeah, you know, that was a good time. - As much as I hated doing the, while I was doing it, I didn't hate doing it. It was just like, my legs weren't working anymore, you know? (all laughing) And like, I'm sitting there going like, oh, I don't stand a chance. Justin is saying that, it's challenging. - I'm dead, I'm dead, I'm dead, I'm dead, I'm dead. - I'd be fun, I'd be fun. You can look back and go, "I did it, it was awesome." - Yes, I saw that rattlesnake, I saw that king snake. It was fantastic, yeah. The fact that I could go and say that I've dug the Grand Canyon, that's pretty cool. - Leave me here, go on without me. All right. - I'm glad I was pushed to do it. - Yeah, so, it's awesome. - Plus Rob was great. - He knew you had it, you know? - Yeah, I know. He's like, he won't let me die. (all laughing) 'Cause I'll have to deal with Owen and Dory, right? (all laughing) - You left me with a charge-able! - Listen. - And I say this every time you guys say that I'm dead. - Rob would have to go in a witness protection section. - It's every time you take him out, it's like, "Listen, if he dies, it's the end of the network." I'm not doing shit, but it's not. - Yeah, it would be the end of the network. - It's the end of the network. - You take the network in your hands. - I brought you into this world. - I'll take you out, yeah. (all laughing) - Awesome. Well, all right, I guess we'll wrap it there. Thanks, Justin. - Yeah. - So much appreciate it. - It's a good time and some time with us. - Thanks for having me. - Hanging and chatting out, it's been a while. So hopefully people that were on the fence about pigming pythons or antiregia will take the dive. - Hope so. - If you'd be more convincing, give me a call. - Yeah, there you go. - We'll have to figure out some sort of thing that Eric and I strongly disagree on to come back on Reptile Fight Club. - Yeah. - It's very cathartic for us to come on and just scream at each other. So I'm not like we don't do that here enough. - Did we do that before? - Yeah. - Yeah, we did one. - Yeah, we did one. - Yeah. - Yeah, but you guys came on. - And then I think he did one from the field too. A couple. I know Eric did some for the field. I think I've done, I did one where I went, where you and I did like are they popular, or are species popular because they're rare or are they rare because they're popular kind of a thing? - Yeah. - And then I think I went on another time and did one, I forget what that one was, but I'm not even sure if that even happened or it was a fever dream. - So, but yeah, definitely dude, it come on again. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I always like yelling at Owen. - I mean, they think he does, but he is not prepared. - Well, clearly I don't know what the problem is. - No man, it's not you. - I mean, you just gotta be ready. You're like throw one up and you're surprised when I get it back over the net. Like it's... - Okay. I just played dumb for you. That's all. - Oh, and smack. (all laughing) - Do I have to keep you a step stool? You can come up and smack or not. - No, remember. - Who was in charge of the force? I think his name was Yoda, right? (all laughing) Just remember that, buddy. - Yes, yes, yes, anyway. - I also remember where a short person's punches fall on a tall person. - Valley point, you were very good. - Yeah. - Very damaging. - Very good. - Stool. Zero was so good. (all laughing) - Yeah. - Perfectly. (all laughing) - All right, so if you want to check out what we got going on, you can subscribe and share the podcast on the network. You can follow us on Mariah Pudan Radio on Instagram or NPR Network on Instagram. We've got a merch store. We've got a Discord. We've got a Patreon. All the links are in the show notes. So if you want to check it out, you can be sure to check out the other shows on the network like Reptile Fight Club, Colubrid and Cluberoid Boas, Boas, Boas. By the way, Boas, Boas, Boas, Dennis McNamara episode. We'll not ever see the light of day. We liked the Ron St. Pierre episode. That just went down the shitter, which was a really good one on the Reptile Fight Club. - It was so good. (all laughing) - We're gonna try to recreate it, but yeah. - Okay. - That's happened to us a couple of times where we like to have episodes that never see the light of day. - Yeah. - So, yep, we have that. Then also we have Colubrid and Caffeine. We have an affiliate link. You can go and get some awesome coffee. We have Garps of Coffee Blend. And, you know, if you're into, they have everything you could possibly imagine. Delicious tray and Kendrick. They do really good stuff over there. So, if you want to follow me on Instagram and this is E.B. Moralia. Oh, and take us out. - For me, it's rogue-reptiles.com. There's a bunch of stuff. I just redid the website. So, man, oh, maybe it's false water cobras. - Right, I'm talking to you. - I'm the part of my thoughts. - All of my thoughts. I am trying to get rid of shit. - You're the female? - I have several females for you. For you, I have several females. - Okay. - For you, I might have a proven female, just so I'd take it. But it's, but yeah, so there's that. There's also an adult Chinese king rat that I'm trying to get rid of up there. So, if you need that, go get it. - Ooh, I saw him, yep. - Oh, yeah, he's gorgeous. But anyway, and also Instagram, rogue-reptiles, Facebook, all that fun stuff. Check out Colubrid and Caffeine for your rodents, use NPR 20 to get 20% off of your order and use FS 250 for free shipping off any order above $250. So, I have an order coming tomorrow. So, it's good stuff to do that. That's all I think we have for everybody tonight. So, we'll say thanks everyone for listening and we'll catch everybody back here next week for some more of Moraleo Python radio. Good night. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
