Morelia Python Radio

Insular and Tree boas with Jeff Murray

Episode #244- In this episode we are joined by Jeff Muarry to talk about insular and tree boas. We will be talking about the natrual history of these intersting boas along with Jeff's approach to keeping and breeding them in captivity. We will be talking about Chilabothrus, Candoia and Corallus boas. We are also joined by Rob Stone of High plains herpetoculture.

Duration:: 2h 58m
Broadcast on:: 27 Apr 2016
Audio Format:: other

Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Projekt. I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Marklin and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing you the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. 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Shipereptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. The materials needed to ship the reptile successfully, live customer support in our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptile report.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. Welcome to Moralia, I saw Moralia with your host, Eric Erk, and only McIntyre. Hello, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Moralia Python Radio number 244. In this episode, we're going to be talking with Jeff Murray about insular boas. We're going to be talking Candoia, Corralis, and Chilobothris. How about that Owen? There's so many scientific names going on right now. I'm going to have numerous windows open to try to just get the common names to butcher it, and I don't want the emails tomorrow. Well, no fear, we have Rob. That is correct. Rob is here to help us. Rob is here to save us. Do the best I can anyway. There's no section of tough ones for sure. Yeah, but now there's three of us, and if three of us fail, these words were never meant to be spoken aloud. That's just it right there. So, yeah, it's fun. If there was just the two of us, then it's just Eric and I being idiots and can't talk. Now Rob's here, it's okay. So... Yeah, I don't really have too much experience with insular boas. I've never really worked with them. I know, Owen, you have worked with Dominican Red now. Yeah, thanks of all. I love them. I'm reading the outline, and I'm going through it. I'm like, you know, why do I have to use Dominican Red Mountain Boa question? Damn it, but because I have them, yeah, they're my joys. So, yeah. Cool. So, yeah, we should be having Jeff come on in a couple minutes, but in the meantime, I guess what's going on with you guys. Rob, you're working with him and I am. Okay, well fair enough. Yeah, I figured you'd hop in there, Owen. Let's see. So, the breeding season is just kicking off for me with all the columbrid stuff and the boas that I keep. So, that's very exciting. I have a grabbed rubber boa, so that's very cool. Looks like heading towards that way for a couple of rosies. Should you start getting some fair-eye questions here in the next hopefully 15 to 18 days, something like that. So, yeah, it should be good. And I followed Eric's lead. I got my website all up all the way to work. They'll go somewhere. They'll do something, have all my parents for this year up. Oh, and I don't know if you can say the same, but yeah, it's all good to go. So, check it out, rhinorest.com. No, I cannot. Let that fly. Yeah, it's a, yeah, the site looks cool, man. I dig it. It's a real good job on that. So, thanks, man. I appreciate it. Yeah, and then you guys are, you got something going this weekend, right? Yeah, this weekend is a Southern Carpetfest, a second annual. We're headed down to Texas to hang out with our good friend Bill. If you're in the area, Arlington, Texas, be sure to come on by. It's not just for carpet python people. It's for any kind of reptile people, really. Good time, good food, good drink, good people. What more can you ask for? You know? That I'm looking forward to it. Plus, you know, I get to ride an O in suitcase on the way down. Yeah. I'll make sure I pick you up from baggage claim. I only let you go around the carousel a few times. So, yeah. So, yeah, this should be a good time. You'll really dig it out, I'm sure. Well, I not want to leave, Bill. So, I think you'll be wanting ball pythons when you come back from there. You're funny. I mean, that's, no. You one day, one day, you might sway me on end goalens because they're not ball pythons and they're kind of weird in their bumpy. So, it's like the ball python version of the ruffy. You might be able to sway me on end goalens if I'm really drunk. But the ball pythons just do nothing for me. So, probably never going to get there. Sorry, buddy. No, man. I don't know. I'm looking forward to it. I don't know how I'm going to make small talk with you on the plane. I mean, you and I barely speak as is. So, I'm looking at the extra money to choose your seats so you can actually sit next to each other. No, I don't know. Eric did all this. Yeah, I think literally in the overhead storage bin, I don't know how he did this. So, you know, Owen is down in the bottom of the plane with the I knew it. I'm going to dog crate. Yeah. It's um, we're going to be loading me into deltas. He'd be like, all right. Oh, we'll see when we get there drill drill and then I'm out. So, yeah. That's right. Okay. It makes sense. I know. Yeah, see, dangerous live Owen and flat that on the crate and then off I go. So, yeah. I think, I think, you know, these, these type of things are probably one of the, you know, I think it's one of the funnest parts of the reptile hobby, you know, getting to hang out with people, fellow reptile keepers and, you know, just shoot the shit and get to know them and, you know, make new friends. That's the weird thing. Is that before we started with Carpetfest five years ago, how many of these were out there? There was just Timley Park and other, the other multi-day shows where you could hang out with each other after the show. I mean, yeah. And that's what's funny. I've been explaining it to people because people have been asking me where I'm going and I'm like, well, you know, it's Carpetfest. And they're like, well, I thought Carpetfest was at your house. I'm like, it is Northeast Carpetfest. They're like, there are more. And I'm like, yes. And then I said there, I'm like, fully craft. There are more. It's like, we, we did this. It's like, yeah, there are five now. It's like, that's awesome. So you kind of get to get all excited about it every time you have to explain why I won't be home this weekend or at Hamburg. So, you know, come on, dude. This is much better than Hamburg. By the way, Northwest Carpetfest is, um, uh, they picked a date and it's going to be September 10th. So September 10th. Yeah. Stay tuned. Look at their Facebook page, Northwest Carpetfest, uh, for more info, you know, it's, it's a, it's a ways out, but, um, I guess as they get closer, you know, they'll, they'll keep people updated. But, you know, speaking, uh, speaking of Carpetfest, if you have not yet purchased your shirt for the Northwest Carpetfest, go do that now. Northeast Carpetfest. Whatever. I've ruined it. Turn off the show. It's gone now. Northeast Carpetfest, um, go over, pause everything, go do that now. Um, we actually, I found out that the booster, uh, they're doing international shipping now. So if you are in Australia or any other place, you guys just type it in normal, your address and they'll send it directly from the booster manufacturer straight to you, mail that to you. That's pretty awesome. Waiting, you won't get your shirt in like July when I finally get around to sending it to you. And it also stops, it also stops the random shirts that appear at my house that say like two, oh, and McIntyre, four, oh, and McIntyre. I'm like, that's not correct. I already have my shirt. Who is this? So yeah, just go do that and go get your shirts and do not make me re-open the booster this year. A swear to God. Yeah. Oh, and the most critical point, right, is of the three of us on here right now, only one is not signed up to purchase a shirt and it's not you or me. Yeah, that would be me. I wasn't going to bring that up, Rob. Well, I'm glad you did. No, that would be me. Of the radio show has yet to purchase a shirt. That's a great example for the children. You know, I'm a procrastinator. I always wait till the last minute. That's not true. You're usually the first one to go orders. Yeah, I'm the booster goes live, Eric orders, Rob orders, oh, and orders. I'm usually the procrastinator. Don't take this away from me. Well, I want you to have to re-open it. You know, I know where you live. So I don't, you dare. Now, I got to get three of them. You know, three. Yeah. Well, I usually buy whoever the artist is of the okay. Sure. I got you. I got one for Jim, so. He's not the artist. No, Jim, no, you're God, no. It would be horrible if we had him design a shirt. I don't even want to think of that. So yeah, I, um, I, uh, plans my, um, uh, parings pretty poorly because my eggs will be hatching on Saturday when, uh, you know, that's miles away. Yeah. While in Texas, so. So is your wife going to check on them for you or are you having your brother do it? Nah, she'll do it. She'll check it out. Yeah. She's cool. Like getting texts about babies peeking when you're in Texas. Yeah. Yeah. If you don't manually, if you don't manually pick, it takes a day or two. They'll probably still be hatching when we come back. So. Yeah. I, um, I use those, uh, not forget the name of the things. The, uh, uh, you know, those, um, incubator boxes, egg box. Sim containers. Sim containers. Yeah. They weren't pretty good, man. Yeah. Andrew uses them for his monitors. So. Yeah. I like them a lot. I wish they had latching lids for the monitors because when something is born with hands, it can easily open a little lid and then there's a lizard loose in my incubator. So. That's just my critique on them. Yeah. Yeah. The lid is kind of a little, not, not. Yeah. It's, you kind of just maybe sits on the top. Kind of. It gets on there, but it's not like, you don't hear clicks and there's no latches. So there's nothing to contain everything. I don't know if that's for air flow or whatever, but, um, there was a mangrove monitor loose in my incubator for about a week, um, before we ended up re recovering it. So. And that's all these, and then just, they just pop open the thing. So now when we get close to his egg hatching, I like packing tape them in there. So it's like, there's like several rolls of packing tape around it so that they can hatch and stay in the box. So. Okay. That's my product tip for the week. So the only thing that, uh, that I don't, that I didn't like, well, it's not that I didn't like, but it made me nervous was the, uh, when you're taking the, uh, egg box and putting it in the incubator because there's water in the bottom, it kind of like moves back and forth as you're walking, you know, so you kind of have to walk really careful and, yeah, I'm sure I can come up with an else way to do that, but I don't know. That was my only, uh, you know, issue, I guess, but, uh, Mike Curtin was telling me, uh, last year at our carpet fest that, um, you know, he, that, that the babies had hatched out, um, and they seemed much healthier and, uh, they, they were bigger, uh, they ate better. I don't know. I don't, I don't know if that's, you know, that was his observation, but we'll see. Yeah. Yeah. Why not? Cool deal. Well, uh, I don't know if you guys have anything else, but it looks like, um, looks like we may have, uh, Jeff on the line. So let me click him on and Owen, you can kick. Hey, Jeff, welcome to Moraleo. Welcome to Moraleo. Pretty good. Glad to be here. Very good. Definitely. So thanks for coming on and talking to, uh, us about some boas that we only had very few feelings with. So you're gonna have to give us the expertise on it. Um, but first, Jeff, why don't you tell us what kind of got you started into reptiles in general? Oh, I was, I was just one of those kids that got out of the house after breakfast and didn't come home to dinner. Yeah. So, all right. I mean, turning over logs, slipping can, you know, another wooden put or put my clothes away in the, uh, the dresser, because she never knew what was, you know, what I had hidden in there. So one of those childhoods. Okay. And there. Okay. Very cool. What was some of your, uh, first reptiles that you ended up keeping? Uh, matrix, you know, water snakes, uh, just moving around a lot. So whatever, whatever within that particular state that I always went out and found kept it for a little while a week or two and then always let loose. Cool. So what drew you to, uh, the rarer boas? Uh, I really started out with the boa constrictor group and, uh, constant, pretty nice collection at one point and, uh, constant, uh, deployments. Um, it would, it ended up being too much for the wife to handle the entire collection. So, um, I told her to sell off, you know, go ahead and sell it off because I wasn't going to be back for a year. And I got out, uh, and we all know what the legislation, uh, was looking like a couple of years ago. So, uh, I decided, well, not putting much faith in the US official wildlife to do the right thing. I decided I'd go for something that might take him a long time to come after. So I decided to get into the West Indian stuff. Okay. And that's where, where I am now. Okay. And, uh, what type of collection are you working with size-wise? Uh, as in numbers? Yeah. Oh, I have no idea. It's a lot of animals. Um, okay. Mostly, uh, let's, let's just say 15 subs, subfolders, uh, but 30, 30, uh, Puerto Ricans, uh, and it gets smaller from there. The tape resolves. Right. Okay. And it just mostly, all boa, or is there some kind of diversity and a few other things there? Uh, I have, uh, quite a bit of the West Indian Caribbean stuff. And, uh, I keep sending any of the mandarin volunteering, uh, that sort of pays for the hobby. Mm-hmm. I don't make any money on it. I just like to keep it, uh, cost neutral. As best I can, you know, since it's a hobby and it's a money hole. Otherwise, uh, some more boreal stuff that, you know, I've always, always loved or boreal, uh, boa, so they come and agree. Right. All right. Uh, can you talk about how there was, I think it was some kind of taxonomical shift for a lot of the stuff from, uh, Epic Readies to, was it Chillibrothis or butchering these names already? No, I am. Yeah, it's a, it's a terrible name, but, uh, blame doom rule. Um, the, uh, when they, when they went, when they went back through and looked at the, uh, Epic Readies, the rainbow bowl isn't a, I think they cut it down to five instead of the many, some species that they originally had. Uh, then they looked, they went back and looked at the West Indian stuff and did some testing and realized that it was, it was sufficiently different from the Epic Readies. Uh, so they went back in, uh, 1844 is when doom rule described, uh, the, uh, Chillibrothis, uh, in this, the year before that it, uh, because Reinhardt described Boa internet, uh, the Puerto Rican Boa. Uh, and I guess doom rule realized that it wasn't a Boa. So, uh, Reynolds, when, uh, he and the rest of his gang, uh, reclassified some of it, the species and some species, they, uh, they just went back with the original name. Okay. That doom rule, doom rule used. And it made sense. Not that anybody knew that. You're definitely, so you're definitely forward going back to the, uh, doom rules original taxonomy. Uh, it makes sense. I mean, if you follow the, whatever laws and, uh, you know, the rules and regulations that, uh, you know, they set up, they change, uh, it makes sense to do it. Uh, using doom rule's original description. Cool. So are there a lot of importation problems when it comes with these kind of guys? Cause I do know there are several species that are still widely imported in the United States out of these Boas. Uh, I don't, uh, I don't know of any of that are being imported. Okay. Most of, most of those countries, uh, don't allow the export of their, of their, their wildlife anymore. Um, I'm meeting you out here. Okay. Uh, for example, the last Gracillis and Ford's Boa, Forti, uh, came in around the 93, 94, 95 time frame. And that was the last time, uh, that they came in. So we're all, we're, we're working with offspring. And in some cases, the relics, uh, from that time period. So. Very cool. It's been a, it's been a, uh, a crazy time trying to go back and find all this stuff, uh, the small group of us that may keep this, keep the West Indian. Wow. So they, they, they shut it down completely. So there's no one coming in at all. Wow. Well, you know how money is. I mean, if you had the contacts and the money, they, they could conceivably issue an export permit and then it wouldn't be a problem bringing them. Um, but, you know, who's willing, you know, who's willing to do that? Do all that. Yeah. Right, Jeff. I suppose one, um, the one exception, right, would be the Haitian Boa's up to and including the Dominican stop frame. Yeah. They're all, they're all the same. It just happens to be. Uh, uh, Reynolds said they're found, uh, through a wide range on the, uh, different side of the, uh, of the island and mostly, uh, not the red, but the all the morphs that people, uh, produce, uh, a lot of that. And genetically, they didn't test out any differently than striitis. So, you know, there's where it is. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think those are the kind of the only ones I've seen, um, you know, typically you'd see it. You know, I remember seeing it shows, but five to 10 years ago, you'd see that were obviously wild patient boats, you know, before even that, you know, popularized. Yeah. Way, way back in the nineties, the late eighties, they'd bring the, uh, the wild caught ones in. They'd drop a bunch of babies and they'd sell the babies, you know, to the public for fifteen, twenty dollars a piece and they'd all die off because they're, you know, hanola eaters. Right. Uh, yeah. Fine. You see the pinks. So, um, it's, it's a, it's sort of a niche boa, the entire genius, really. So, you're, uh, yeah, I'm just, yeah, you have to like a challenge. So, and a lot of people don't like a challenge. So, yeah. And it's expensive lizard, you know, initially. Yeah. I mean, uh, pack of fuzzies versus a, I don't know, however you'd get. Uh, I bought the Knowles for my guys and that was much more expensive. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, do you, uh, you have any thoughts, Jeff, on, uh, feeding, whether it be cycle feeding or prey variability, kind of changing it up for the guys, kind of seeing what they'll take, what they'll eat, um, mix it up the dye a little bit. Uh, most everything with the exception of the, uh, Cuban boa, um, starts off on a Knowles. Um, and it may take some of them may go three months. Some of them may go, I've had some of my Chrysler gaster took almost two years to get them switched over. So, uh, at that point, you don't want to go back and introduce a variable, because, you know, you could end up, you know, feeding his llamas at that point. So, yeah. Once they're off, he can keep them off if he can. Uh, occasionally, you have to jump start a male, um, after, after breeding season. Uh, and the only way to do that is to take a step backward and, uh, throw a larger Knowles in there. Right. I could, I could see that. Um, so now I saw that you called your hairdryer, your best friend beside your wife. Um, what does that mean? Number one, uh, and then number two, uh, what is the percentage of boas that you're getting to feed using? I, I assume it's a defeating method now. Yeah, it's, uh, I used to do it with, with the wife's hairdryer without her knowing about it. And, uh, she called me and, uh, okay. So by the end, I think, I think the next day I had my own hairdryer. Um, but what it does is, uh, occasionally you can get away with a warm wet rodent or a hot wet rodent. Um, but there are some, some boas that just turn their nose up at that, and hitting it with a hairdryer, putting it, uh, like a water bulge that's big enough to hairdryer fits in and leave it on for two to three minutes, throw a rodent in there, off to the side, and then present that. And for some reason, uh, even recalcitrant feeders, uh, will go for it. Or really some of the imports. Yeah. Some of the, some of the australis that I just fed in will feed like that. But if you stick a, a frozen thawed, or a wet one in front of the face, they ignore it. So it just works. I don't know why. You're doing it for about 20 years. So you're just heating up the bowl itself and then putting the rodent in? Yeah. If you throw the rodent in there, as soon as you turn the hairdryer on, the skin, uh, the minute that boa hits, hits that rat, it will explode because the skin will be too thin. Okay. Yeah. Then you have a mess. So yeah, he could heat the bowl up and drop it in. Um, I, I shoot it with a gun as soon as he, the head of the rodents around 125 and it doesn't take long at all. Uh, I just presented. It's a good way to get live feeders off of live food, uh, using this. So, I mean, how, what's your percentage of boas that you've kind of gotten to take on this? I mean, is it a pretty high amount? Yeah, it's about half. Yeah. Nice. A little Puerto Rican boas. Um, I get a small percentage of those to take a hot tank that's never been in the water. Uh, just heat it up real hot and stick it in its face and, and they pop it. It's not all the time, but you know, those are the ones that I don't have to send and it can move on to, you know, the problem changes. Right. So you have any other stuff down my work? Of course, which is the whole point of all that stuff. Um, do you have any tips and tricks that you can kind of go through with getting some babies eat? I mean, I know when I had my litter of Dominicans, I mean, I kind of tried everything and then I eventually just ended up doing live annoles for a little bit until I could get them on to frozen water rodents. You can, uh, you can pluck the down from a chicken or a chick and so a little, you know, container, typically wet paint toss it in there, shake it up until it looks like a tiny miniature chick. It's nothing but fuzz. Okay. You deli cup, deli cup them. You can rip. I won't say rip. You can remove part of the tail from an ollie and the tail tends to bleed a little bit, rub that over the face and head of the pink, leave it in overnight. You can break off each of that tail and stick it in the mouth. Um, you can, uh, without your wife knowing, take a saucepan and simmer two or three annoles and keep adding water so that you've got basically about one inch of an ollie broth. So a little stuck. Yeah. And, uh, you just stick pinks in there, let them soak for a while. Uh, uh, and then leave them in overnight and freeze the stock. You can use it three, four times and then it starts, it starts to go bad. Okay. Um, and that works, too, but an ollie stock. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So, you can see an ollie stock. Yeah. Yeah, you just have to get, uh, creative as well. Awesome. Um, okay. So we're gonna, we're gonna go down and break down some of the species that you work with. Um, I hope I'm saying this right, but it's that, uh, Strigulatus. So how you say it? Strigulatus. Strigulatus. Okay. Um, so can you tell us about maybe what type of environment these guys are in, um, and how common they are in the hobby? Uh, well, the, the original wines, um, are from an old male from the 90s, uh, that a buddy traded a pair of binies for, and then another buddy of mine ended up with a female that he found, uh, could have been on kinks made somewhere, uh, and realized what he was looking at. So, uh, that's one line. Um, Crutchfield had another line and, uh, there's another animal that surfaced. So there's basically three, three different patterns that, you know, were able to work with. They aren't that common at all, but, uh, they do have pretty big letters. So I would think that, in the next five or six years, it, uh, you know, they won't be as, as common as DRMD, but, uh, you should be able to find them if you look at them. Do you find that, um, that, like, with species like this, that, uh, people are starting to pay attention again? It seems like there's a sort of a resurgence in, um, keeping those, uh, you know, more niche species, uh, to see people getting interested in, in these bows? Uh, yeah, they are. I, it, the folks that are taking an interest in some of the stuff that I have are, uh, kind of collectors of everything. Gotcha. And they add one of this that I might have or one of that. But, uh, I don't think they'll ever be like rats, mates, you know, collards and whatnot. We, you know, you have a large collection. I don't think they'll ever, they'll ever reach that point. Uh, right. You said to leave it to the masochists too. Yeah, right. Take that, you know, having an entire collection of them. Right. So, what about the environment that they're from? What is, uh, well, it's just, you know, Caribbean, uh, very hot during the day. And, uh, you know, people think, well, you know, I need to provide, you know, 85, 86 degrees during the day. And it's, you know, nothing could be further than a tourist. You guys are either back in a brick wall or, you know, under something where it's probably 80 degrees at the most, you know. Right. And that's why they come out at night because, you know, the temperature drops down into the seventies. Right. So, uh, but they're becoming less and less common, um, simply because it's, you know, turning these islands in the parking lots. Right. So, I'm, I would, I would hope that, uh, we might see some importing of some of the endangered stuff, really rare animals like Exo, Carca, Gasseter, and some of the more uncommon stuff, only just so it's, it's in the hands of, you know, responsible people. The zoo has no interest in working with these animals. Why is that? Why do you think that is? Well, I mean, look at it from their point of view. Uh, you know, a brown mean, uh, Puerto Rican boa doesn't have the ooh, off factor of a 20 foot retake, you know? Yeah. So, so, I mean, what are they going to pay to see? Yeah, that's not some snake banging on the glass, you know? Right. Right. Um, you had, okay. Go ahead. Great. No, no, no, go ahead. I have, uh, a trio of adult Puerto Ricans that were given, uh, gifted to me from a zoo for that very reason. And we wanted to use a display space for, you know, something that would draw, you know, folks into the zoo. Right. You know, they have to offer it to the other zoos before they can offer it, you know, outside of-- They know what nobody took it. Nobody, nobody raised their hands. That's right. That's right. What does that tell you? Wow. Okay. Um, I know you had mentioned on your Facebook page that, uh, this is one of your favorite of the Bahama Boas, what is it about them that you like so much? Uh, just the, the color, um, if you, you'd have to see a berry, a bimini and a Bahama's Boa, you know, when you're saying tub, and you would probably, your eyes would probably be drawn to the stridolatus. It's just, there's just a pretty boa. Right. And it's, gun black or a gun metal blue with silver and gray. It was just beautiful boas. You know, some of, some of the other stuff can be like a muddy brown, uh, you're not ugly by any means, but the Bahama's Boas are just really beautiful animals. Awesome. So what about, you know, like care requirements for them? Like what size, caging, uh, feeding, temps, anything like that? Uh, well, they're active animals. Um, they, uh, they need, uh, the adults will need at least four feet of, uh, a ground space. I keep mine, uh, four feet by two feet deep by 12 inches high, uh, with, uh, radiant heat panels and a hide box on both ends. So it can move back and forth, but they're, you know, they're, they're very active snakes. Okay. And I'm curious, is, are you feeding them? Is it, do you follow a schedule? Are you feeding them seasonally or is it weekly, monthly, what, what kind of schedule? I've always been a bigger fan of, uh, smaller and more often. Okay. If you feed them as babies like that, they, they tend to be better feeders, uh, as adults, especially males, um, because if you're going to lose an animal 90% of the time, it's going to be the male. And, uh, as far as seasonally goes, they did, I mean, they go off feed when, you know, when the weather tells them to and, uh, their instinct kicks in and, uh, probably my favorite time of the year, because it saves me a lot of money. Uh, yeah, I feel that. And I feed, that feed the females with smaller meals, if they'll take it. Right. And, uh, also all the bread and usually a first time mother won't, uh, won't eat, but on the second letter, she may, she may feed sparingly. Okay. All right. Cool. Hi, Jeff. This is Rob Stone. We had a Facebook message back and forth a couple of weeks ago about my, uh, Australia's, you know, essentially grab a Australia's female. How are you? Good. How are you? I'm doing great. Um, Eric wanted me to talk about the Christi Gastron that fits great, because I really, really like those. Dave Tracer, who's local to me, had picked up some a handful of years ago, and there's, those are really a special bow. And I know, I used to work out at Denver Zoo and the Tristan K goes project was actually a really big, um, project at Denver for a long time. So those, uh, those are some special bowas you have. Um, what, uh, how many of them are you working with? Um, I have five, um, four here and one down with the buddy, uh, in Florida, only because it's going on. Four or five years old, and it's still, like, centered or large and always. So, um, do you have any yourself? I don't. Uh, Dave had gotten those and otherwise they just seem, you know, relatively unavailable. I mentioned the, uh, the price point for sure, but, uh, they're certain, they're certainly gorgeous. Yeah. Um, the guys that, uh, I work with two other guys to bring some in from Switzerland. Hey, that's pathetic, isn't it? Um, I mean, they, they started out in Canada, um, as best we can tell, we've come up with a flow chart. And, uh, the Chrysler Gaster are all related, uh, from just a few lines. Thomas Hough's, um, breeding foundation, uh, the reptile breeding foundation around 1978. And they went overseas. Um, and I don't know, maybe six years ago, we brought in 1.2 adults from Switzerland, uh, and my buddies in the early 2000s brought some in from Denmark and the UK, but they're all related. I mean, it's just offspring of the offspring of the offspring. Uh, um, we don't get any stripes. Sorry. Go ahead. Uh, we don't get any stripes. I'm, I'm assuming that that, that gene's been bred out. I would imagine in the, in the original group, uh, uh, Crutchfield says that they, they can throw both, but I would think that if, you know, it's sort of like annual Addison, you have colored babies and the brown babies, people have to color babies. Um, well, when they die off and all you have are brown, you produce those, you get a few, you get a few colored, they die off and then you're breeding brown to brown and you don't have any colors left. Uh, which is basically where we're at with the, with the Chrysler Gaster, we've had three litters and no stripes. So, you know, I should tell you pretty much, uh, these are sort of inbred. Yeah. Yeah. Then those, uh, those watch I think are probably my favorite look, but you'd rather have the diversity to be producing both, I think. Yeah. Um, well, the, uh, there's a, the curator retiring or has retired in, um, I think he has some animals out on loan. So, if they haven't passed away, um, and he, we can get them back, we might be able to do a little more with what we have. Yeah, that would be great. The ones they've got, I think, came from, from Tom. Did Tom have a litter a few years ago? Uh, yeah. He had, uh, actually, he had, um, three or four babies last year and the ones that he had prior to that were produced in the same winter as mine, uh, that mine came from. So, um, I've had these things ever since they were, you know, baby and old eagers. Uh, and I guess they're, they're going on five, five. Yeah, five years old now. Yeah. Yeah. So that sounds right. Do they have relatively small litter? Uh, I think the, uh, I think my buddy told me that it was about eight babies per and, uh, Tom says they can have much more than that. So, uh, again, it could be the inbreeding is causing, you know, the low, the low reproductive numbers. So we'll have to, well, I just don't know how we're going, going to get any more in right now. Right. And especially that, you know, it seems like it's not just a number of specimens question. If all the specimens throughout the world, accepting their native habitat are related back to the 70s, you know, it doesn't really solve anything to be getting new animals from Europe or something along those lines. No, I mean, we brought them just because the numbers were so low here in the US, you know, yeah. How many do you think there are at this point in the US? Uh, well, there's the group at, uh, Tom's, which is comprised of, uh, both of, both of my friends, animals and the group that we brought in from Switzerland. Um, and I'm guessing there's five or six there. And then, uh, the offspring that the two litter that were produced, I'm not quite sure where all of that stuff went. All I know is, um, my animals, um, I can't, they didn't sell any, you know, my cut, if you will. Right. Of the litters. I got some from the first litter in the second. Very cool. Yeah. I mean, you're super jealous. They're, they're certainly an amazing, amazing snake. It was funny. You brought up the, uh, emulated and then we'll hop back in one second, but, uh, I don't know if you remember, too. I was also the original owner of your male, Engilatus. That's the, uh, the nixed orange and, uh, brown animal that I became in from Costa Rica, and I got some camera and I'm told to, the fellow in California that you got, uh, got him from my phone. Funky why? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, so that was your animal, huh? Yeah, for sure. That, so that was, I think the spring of '06, something like that. Yeah. Um, Dwyer, uh, I had that animal at the expo in Daytona way, way back when, and Dwyer saw it, and he said there were three in that litter that were like that. And I think you can remember just they send them, send them all because there were, there was another, there certainly was a female as well. It was a, like a gray more than a brown, and she had these really big inside of her side patterning, had these really big pink, pinkish white splotches. Um, and I'm not sure if it certainly seemed weird relative to the rest of the group, but, um, it was a special, uh, certainly a special litter for sure. Yeah. Um, I lost that animal about two and a half years ago. Um, it had a kink before the vent, when I got it. Um, and, uh, it was an on and off again, feeder. I was just, I was, I just really wanted to use it to get it to breed. Yeah. And, uh, it's the way in the middle of a breeding season. So, um, kind of broke my heart. Yeah. I don't, I don't think we'll see that thing again. You know, that kind of animal. Right. I mean, it was, it was certainly something did, uh, and he, so he is not produced anymore, like that obviously, I guess, uh, certainly. No, no. Um, I've had three litters, uh, this, this past, uh, December was my third litter. Um, but the first two litters were brown to brown pairings. Um, first litter for no colors, the second litter produced one color, um, and then immediately sent that off to a buddy who's got, uh, six or seven of my, my animals, some of which are colored. Uh, and then I hung on to a couple that are going on five and six now. But, uh, very cool. Kind of an afterthought this year. I don't know that I'll produce anything. I just threw them together, kind of will and milling. I didn't really plan to do it. So I doubt I'll produce anything, but I will give it a go this fall. Yeah. Right. You just found one last, last fall, right? And it seemed like a lot of the whole litter of colors. Is that right? Yeah. Um, there were five live colored, three stillborn colored and two, excuse me, two, um, black, uh, stillborn. And it's more of my fault. Um, I was having a basement redone and I had all the cages unplugged and pushed inward to the middle, all facing inward. And three days, I guess, before I got the walls finished enough to pull everything apart and plug it back in. And that's when I found, uh, I found she had the litter. So they probably, it was a little, a little cool. I didn't think, you know, it would hurt any of the adult animals. But she had gone past her, her drop dead date. So I just assumed that she wasn't gonna have it. That one's on there. Right. And that's the trick with these low, as compared to Eric and Ellen are both fight done, guys. And they got it a lot easier for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not completely obvious when they do, when they do become gravid. Um, one day, you can look at them and go, yeah, I think she is. And the next day you go, no, she's not. First, you may even trade. Well, I'm hoping that you can drop, you can drop some babies. Yeah. I mean, hopefully, she certainly looks large. You know, I've seen some other people on the Candelia corner page. Seems like even Jeff looks, you know, pretty, pretty large in the posterior there. And certainly, there was good follicle development. So in my, you know, in mine, I saw activity, but no confirmed population. So this year's, I just hope they're good. And I don't, you know, wait five or six months to get a bunch of, you know, yeah, don't you love boas? Yeah. And then when you, when they drop a niggas, yeah, that's good. Nope, that's not, you know, but you got to wait six months to go. Ooh, that's good. It's a real bummer. Yeah. To return to the crisis after for a second. Sure. In terms of what you've got, what, uh, what do you keep in the mirror and what, in terms of attempt cycles, are you, are you running those similar to the rest of the stop where you're doing maybe high 70s up to, uh, you know, under the heat available up to high 80s, something like that, or for your first time, um, uh, high 70s on the cool side and, uh, the, uh, on the, I have the heat panel laying against the back wall, uh, at ground level so that they can, they can rest up against it. Uh, and that way I don't have to produce a lot of heat because of the, uh, the probe is right there and I said it for 85 degrees and, and that's the hot spot and they, they pretty much only go there for one or two hours in the morning and then they'll come back out before the lights go out and lay up against that heat. So I've got what I'm hoping are two gravid females. We'll, we'll see what happens in, uh, all October, somewhere around there. Okay. Well, yeah. I mean, obviously, I think, are all I think is your crops for you because that, you know, just always great to see more of those and at some point I'd like that to be enough of them that, that I can get a small group myself, you know, selfish purposes. So, you know, you know how that goes. So, um, in terms of feeding the adults, are they my feeders? Strictly my feeders? Well, once you can guarantee them. Um, I, I've had, I've had them take, uh, rat pinks. Okay. Um, but I mean, these guys are five years old and they're still taken at best, a median mouse. You know, I would think that by the time you're 15 or 20 years old, they might be able to take a large mouse. Ah, right. The time's gone. These are very long-lived animals. Yeah. My, uh, buddy of mine has ex-ool. They belong to me. Really? That was a question for later. Okay. Well, we'll cover it then. No, but feel free. Feel free. That was just going to be, are they here? You know, is it, is it a thing? Well, he, uh, they belonged to a zoo guy, um, but the zoo that had them, uh, really wasn't doing anything with him. So he had the zoo ship, the ex-ool to him. And, uh, these animals are, well, they're around 29 years old, 30 years old, when he, when he got them. And, uh, we got two tiny litters. Uh, so I, I believe there's a perfect 2.2 that are now two and three years old. That's totally fabulous. Yeah, that's, that's phenomenal. That's like the miracle birth, you know. Right. Are the adults still around at this point? Or, um, a couple of roles just due to old age. And there's really no point in trying to breed a 35 year old animal. Um, there is about a 15 year old female. So between the 2.2 and her, I'm, I'm hoping that, uh, you know, they can keep the lines between this, this species going in the States. I'm assuming it also came from, uh, Canada, you know, from the Thomas of RBF. That's very interesting. Yeah, that's not, not a facility that I'm familiar with. Um, do you have any, I mean, is it still around or is it? No, uh, tough, tough. I, I believe that this cancer, he passed away from cancer in the late 80s or early 90s, um, but he did some pioneer work with, um, breeding Jamaicans and the West Indian Bozied. Uh, I want to say McCraney Eye and some of the other never seen, um, Frank Striatus, uh, Alaros and that kind of thing. So nobody knows where all that stuff went though. Yeah, I mean, it's hopefully, hopefully someday, right, for some, some days somehow and just hope for the best because a lot of truly amazing stuff. Yeah, it is. It's, uh, it's not, I mean, what more could you want? All right. For sure. Very cool to see things, but, uh, everybody has their own little thing that they're after and that they want. Um, but so this is a project that kind of fell into my lap and that was the Dominican Red Mountain Boa. Um, can he kind of talk about them for a little bit, kind of, tell us, you know, where they're from and what type of environment they normally hang out in the wild? Yeah, they're, uh, they can be found anywhere from, from the, the low mount, well, I'm called it mountains, but, uh, the ranges, uh, on the, the Dominican side, um, all the way down to the, uh, to the smaller cities and, uh, Reynolds has done some, some, um, some research there. It doesn't seem that they're, you're really confined to the, the one mountain. Uh, now it's possible those boas that started this craze came from the mountains. Um, but he said that, uh, after doing some, some extensive research, uh, that they seem to be pretty prevalent, uh, in different phases or looks, uh, throughout the minica. I doubt, you know, when you look at the spaniola, I mean, you can tell where Hades cut down all the trees and that's right where the border's at. You know, it's like the minicans, uh, forested and everything on Hades been cut down, burned and, and never repointed. So there's very little left there. Um, but Bob, Bob started this and, obviously he kept the best back for himself, so, uh, he has some phenomenal, uh, stock. And so does Tom, which, uh, came from Bob. So, uh, it's kind of odd. Where does the Polish zoo stuff fit into that picture? So what? I'm sorry. The animals, I, I think that, I'm not sure if it, so Bob's came right, they, where they come in from Bronx, do something like that. Um, and then there were those animals that, I think at least some of the ones Tom had, right. We're imported from some zoom, zoom in Poland. Yeah. If, if, uh, there are old pictures from the 90s of red striatus, so it's, I mean, this isn't a new, a new thing. They've been around overseas for a while. Um, and Tom, I think Tom brought in a, an entire litter that were crazy red. So, um, it's, it's, I didn't know that his animals, Bob's came from the zoo, the Bronx Zoo. Um, yeah, that was my understanding from, uh, you know, because the, the end of the stolen world book, they started discussing the those and how they, when Tom went down there to check them out, you know, went down to, uh, went down there to check them out. And as part of that, they were talking about how he had met Bob at Daytona and Bob said, oh, I have that snake on your brain or you didn't believe him. And that, that whole bit. And then it's, so Bob did indeed have him as he talked about. And he, I think it was Bronx that, you know, produced litters and he would get kind of choices animal or two. And over the course of, you know, literally deck, a decade plus. Um, and then kind of this simultaneously, they discovered that as you and Poland had, um, similar animals. And so at least some of that stuff that then we saw to be part of Tom's group accepting what came from Bob was imported there. That's interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that either. So, and I should know that I have some. So there's, I have them, but I'm, I'm really tired of cleaning up after them. So thank you. I mean, it's like, you know, first off of you, out of all your boas, are these like up there with the messiest or are there, are there some that are worse that I should know I should avoid? Yeah. Doom rolls. Damn it. All right. I like Doom rolls. All right. They're just as they're done now. They're off the list. So. And how big would you say a Dominican should be? Because I have seen pictures ranging from, you know, rainbow boa size to like the largest red tail you could ever think of for these guys. What is the normal healthy size for a Dominican? Well, um, striatus can get pretty darn large and old female, you know, eight foot. Yeah, they can, uh, they can, they can get around eight foot and pound the large rat. So. Gee. Well, next to a large rat. Amazing. Start out. Yeah. Well, no, we're talking that's an old animal. You know, even at five or six years old, they won't be anywhere near that they, they might be around five foot. I mean, they really hit the growing spurt slows down around the six year mark. And then, uh, then they just live and crap forever. And, and musk and just, yeah, all that stuff. Um, that's so with basic care of the species, like how would you set them up? I mean, I'm, I granted that babies are probably shut up like every other baby boa and Python in a rack system, but how would you go about setting up the adults? Is floor space important to them perching? Uh, they need, they need hide boxes. Um, okay. Something that they can just crawl into and, and, with that white, um, they're very active though when, when they do come out. I personally, I think four, four foot should be the minimum of something like that as an adult. Um, and, uh, with two hide boxes, I use, I use newspaper only because there's some prolific crappers that, uh, um, and I have found that if it's only tea, I leave it because if you take that out, they're going to mark the clean paper. Do it again. Yep. So, uh, fresh water, take the soil stuff out, but if they just pee a little bit, leave it there. You're wasting your time. I'm glad I'm not the only one now. It's like, you know, you just beat a little, they forget you. I'll see you later. And yeah, it is worse. Um, do you, uh, what about, uh, temperatures for these guys? Um, have you, the given kind of a range? Um, do you have a drop down for its breeding season? Um, I, the way I sit, um, all the West Indians stuff up, um, it has, uh, an 83, the 10th, the daytime high is 83. Um, and there's a six to eight degree drop, um, the next year around. So, uh, and I'm using, I'm using, um, herb stats. So, this will make sense. Um, and as I lower the daytime high, I don't have to worry about that, that nighttime change in the nighttime low because that adjusts automatically. And, uh, around October, I start dropping it. And then around February, I start bumping it back up. Okay. Um, a little misting here and there doesn't hurt, but never, ever missed, uh, striatus directly. I mean, they will bolt. Okay. Uh, wrong way. Something about water heating them and they just freak. Um, so, you know, wet the walls, wet the ceiling. Uh, just don't wet them. Um, do you do any life cycling either? Sorry, Ellen. No, no, I, I just had one last quick question. It was, uh, this past year, um, my female actually had, uh, miscarriage of a litter, which that's gross all in its own thing. But, um, how would you, like, what is their prime breeding season? And what do you do to kind of prep your girls for a breeding season? Um, I breed females every other year. Okay. Um, I'm sure there are guys breeding every year and they, you know, stuff in full of rats, you know, as soon as they drop. But, uh, January through March, it seems to be, uh, at least at my location in Tennessee, uh, seems to be the breeding season. Okay. Um, so like I said, I start dropping the temp around the end of October and I raise it. I start raising it back up about mid end of, end of January, mid February. Uh, sometimes I don't have to. The water warms up. You just never know. Mm hmm. But, uh, make, that's, make sense. Most everything is on that schedule. I use 12 hour, uh, uh, photosite, uh, photo period. Yeah. Very cool. Uh, 12 hours, uh, heat on, 12 hours, heat off. And that really gives me, can you do a net with a light? Yeah. You there? Yeah. Can you hear me? Yeah. Okay. Um, and that's all year round. Do you maintain that 12, 12 light cycle? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It really, it really doesn't change, you know, at the equator. So. Yeah. It seems like one of those things, you know, with some of this where, even though it's, it's not a question of mimicking what they actually have going on, it's just trying to push triggers, you know what I mean? Where it's like, it won't even be what they experience, so you're kind of, you're just tightening the experience, so to speak, to try and hit as many of the, the factors as you can to convince them to give you a shot. Well, that's, that's all you can do, you know. And it sure ends to be a lot easier, uh, if you're working with Captain Breadstuffs, uh, then, uh, the wild caught stuff. They're, at that point, I think there are too many variables, uh, that you have to try and play with. Yeah. Just a, a question is how adaptable hair to, to your conditions. And I think it's even more so, right? If they were born in your room, those are the ones most likely to do well for you, you know. So. Yeah. Yeah. I've had animals not feed very well. Um, and I send them out, uh, say two or three animals out of the water. They just, they don't like where they're at. Um, I send them out to Arizona and they start feeding the day they arrive. So, um, I can't make everybody happy. Right? No, that's certainly true. Um, wanted to hit on some more of the, some more of the species that you're working with. Um, I think I heard right when you first started, uh, when telling us what you had that, uh, you said you have 30 in or not, and that totally blew me away. Hopefully some of those are, are the NEOs from last year and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think I have eight or nine adults, um, you know, that I've grown up and then, um, some, some, some more gifts continue. Um, but, uh, I think, between my buddy and I, we've, I think we both had five or six litters each. So, uh, since we started playing with them, and I, I've kept most of that stuff that, um, I have sent, I sent Tom two litters with my very first two, uh, and he worked with them and he sent a few of them back to me and then, you know, gifted most of that stuff at all. Correct. I mean, that's obviously the issue with both those and the Jamaicans is, you know, my, it's a long game with me doing the Facebook messages. I'm trying to lay the 10 year groundwork. So in 10 years, you'll give me some in or not us. That'd be great. It's, uh, it's, unfortunately, it's the only way, right? For sure. No, I don't even sell them in state. I mean, it's just too many things that can go wrong. You know, I sell them to a guy. He moves to Alabama, sells them to somebody in the up in Washington state, and then you're traced back to me, you know, right? So if I give them away, uh, and I'm very picky about who I gift stuff to, um, and they sign in, they sign an agreement with me that, you know, these are gifts. You can't sell these however many animals I gift you, um, you cannot do away with. If you get tired of them, they come back to me. Well, check how you just shift into somebody else, but any offspring you produce, they're yours to do it as you wish, you know, right? If you want to take on that risk for yourself, but at least it's clearly distinguished at that point. Yeah, I think it's, it protects the gifty and the gifter. Um, you know, it states there's no exchange of money. This is a gift, no trade. Um, just like the law, the law allows, you know. Sure. No, I'm, I'm with you. I'm with you. So it's just a, just a function of, you know, and I suppose in many ways, right? It's really useful because you're finding them homes for amongst people that are really, truly very interested in them. Yeah. Um, and not everybody is. I get a lot of, yeah, I'd like to have some of those. Yeah, so, you know, I'm like, I have a lot of other stuff, but, you know, I don't see people giving them to me. So. Sure. Sure. Sure. What, uh, for that, probably in the sky day, a decade from now, what, uh, how are you keeping me in or not? It's from, from the, the NEOs up to those, you know, you're long-standing adults. I'd imagine those are a really long-lived, uh, species. Yeah. Um, uh, the, all of the newborns go into an RBI rack. I'm not promoting RBI. It's just, I just happened to have a bunch of those racks. Um, they all get, uh, aspen, shredded aspen. Um, the price of gaster and the, uh, internet this will, or burrowers. Um, you can, you can put paper towel tubes in there. They will not use them. They'll hide under them. They'll burrow in the aspen. Uh, all the other boas will, will use the hide tubes or if you put little small boxes in there with the whole cut, they'll use those. Um, and I keep them in there for about 18 months. And then, uh, move into a larger rack that, uh, I'm having, I'm having four racks built. Now, I'm running out of room. So, uh, very good. And then I, I keep the big, big Jamaicans, in six foot visions. Um, they need that. There's no way to get in there and clean, uh, cleaning an adult Jamaican in a four foot cage without getting killed. So, great. And the, the Puerto Ricans are the same. Uh, they, no, they, uh, even some of my older ones at about six foot, they be fine in a four foot cage for now. Okay. Um, long as they have a hide box on both ends, I only get to clean half a cage at a time. Um, I clean where the snake isn't. And then I pull out, I pull the hide box out of where it is, wait for it to go to the hide box on the clean end, and then I clean the other half of the cage. Um, that's, it's double work, but the only way I can get it done without getting nailed. Right. Just, just a high stress species, right? Yeah, they really are. I mean, even the babies, um, when you, when you pull that tough out, the babies come out with their mouth open and start swinging their head left to right, like they're in a cage, you know, trying to latch on to anything that, uh, hits their face. It's just ingrained, uh, and, uh, even those babies to, uh, come out and just start swinging their head. And so are they, from the sounds of the dean or not, I've seen very, uh, terrestrial, which is interesting, right? Cause they, they'll, they'll live in, in caves, right? In their, um, in Puerto Rico and eat some bats and, and all that sort of stuff, right? Uh, yeah, but, you know, I'm imagining, I have, I have kept adults in, in Aspen and even the adults burrow. So, I mean, I'm willing to bet they're not as rare. Yeah, I'm, I'm willing to bet that they're not as rare as, uh, as folks think they are in the wild. Well, and it probably, you know, fits in. Unfortunately, a lot of this West Indian stuff, they got to make themselves, you know, they're not, it's not a question of being found to be exported, but they got to make them so scarce that you have a lot of local extrapations either from fear or associated with habitat, cloth, those sorts of things, right? Yeah, big, big challenge, you know, makes it even not much more disappointing and sad that we don't get the chance to, well, you, I should say, don't get the chance to work with them here, you know, if they're facing habitat loss and getting their head chopped off in their native habitat. Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's just, it's one of those things where you, you keep hoping that the U.S. fish and wildlife and, uh, the powers, uh, to be would, would see that, uh, you know, turning, turning the islands into a parking lot without taking some of those animals off those islands, uh, is just a sure recipe for extinction. And it's, it's sad. Yeah, I mean, it really is, you know, it's, I give you the same what I do and it's, it's just terribly disappointing, you know. Um, and, you know, adding the, the global warming stuff and, you know, rising key levels and that, that's just yet, you know, yet another complication, right? You know, so, yeah. Introducing those, that kind of thing. Sure, you know, I mean, it's very frustrating. Um, I did, uh, want to hit on the, the rest of the formally epiquities that you have. The, the four-dye, foster-eye, fowler-eye, and then a little more subplabous action. Um, what's, uh, in terms of those first three, the four-dye, the foster-eye, and the fowler-eye, what, uh, what's your, what can you tell us about them? What, what makes each unique and, or do you have a favorite of the group or, you know, like each one for a particular reason? Um, well, when, uh, before Reynolds, uh, made that slight re-classification, you had the, uh, stratus, fowler-eye, stratus, uh, foster-eye, and stratus, through the lattice. Um, and he elevated, and they're all part of the, the grand, uh, Bahamas, a Lutheran, Long Island, and then Bimini, and then, uh, Bering. Brother, they're sufficiently, uh, related that he moved, uh, foster-eye, and fowler-eye, the Bering Bimini, under striggle lattice. So it's now, uh, striggle lattice, foster-eye, and striggle lattice, um, fowler-eye. That's interesting. They haven't finished the rest of the, there were a couple of species that were of unknown origins, so they, they couldn't actually do the testing. Um, I could be getting the subspecies wrong, but I think it was like McCreney-eye, and, uh, aileris, uh, and then a couple of the others, I think they allowed to stay in the stratus, uh, group until they could do some more testing. Um, but basically the three, uh, are all somehow related, uh, uh, or closely related, more so than the rest of the group. So, uh, Bimini have always been much more popular than Bering's just because of their appearance, uh, and it's been that way since the 80s. Uh, but the strags, um, you know, they've only recently come on the scene, uh, in this, in these numbers here in the last, you know, 10 years. Uh, and you know, giving them full species status, uh, it might help, you know, to make them more popular. It would be hard, you would be hard pressed to just lay one out in front of you and pick it out, unless you had all three side-by-side. Um, it's, uh, some of the very, very similar, uh, in appearance. Yeah, I mean, certainly, uh, you know, I, I've never had any of these. I've seen a few of them, you know, a close and personal, but not the, not to the extent where I feel real comfortable, you know, picking them out to finding them, but it's, it's clear there is a basis for doing that, you know, and for seeing, seeing what's what, so to speak. Um, do you have those three? Well, uh, Brad, Brad has, Brad has some known locale. Um, I think his or Andros Island boas. So he has some known locale berries. Um, and then the other berries are just the ones, or the relic animals that have been here, you know, since before the importing stopped. Right. Um, a lot of the bimini have, um, have died off, um, a buddy of mine, uh, in Arizona, had a trio and his gravit female rolled on him, but he has, he has two imported males from, uh, is it the shed? Is that the bell? Kevin on the cavity. Uh, I'm butchering you guys, man. Anyway, he, he bought these as imports from him in Florida. And, uh, so we've got my buddy and I have a female out of his location. Hopefully, we'll have a winner this year in this cross. Um, and yeah, it'll be great. Yeah, it'll be the first litter of bimini's in quite a few years. So, um, very good. Did this parcel now? Right. I mean, that's part of this, right? Is that just if we're talking a litter at a time, unless they're really good size, you more or less have to hold on to all of them. I see why you're running the Tanzania is, uh, the moneymaker to pay for the rest of these projects because you just have to keep all of them more or less. Yeah. Yeah. Um, some of it, you know, among the three of us, we give each other stuff only because, you know, that's what friends do. And then a few animals, uh, to somebody that wants to work with them. Um, but basically keep, keep back what you need to, um, we'll put it out on loan. Um, it's still yours. It's just in somebody else's care, you know, right? Yeah, just to keep some, keep paths on them. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You're not at a link or should be in control or ownership anyway. For sure. Um, what about the, the four die? What, uh, where are they fit in the picture and what, what, uh, what do you make of them? What, what do you like about them beyond being beautiful and relatively variable? Uh, they're probably the perfect tabletop boa. Um, you know, they're small. Uh, they take forever to get even four foot. Uh, if that, uh, they're just a real pain to get going. Um, it's not that they won't need it's getting in only that small. Oh, really? Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yourself starters, they'll, they'll feed, but it'll be a, at least a year before they're even big enough to attempt eating an extra small pinky. So. Wow. That is tiny. Yeah. Again, it's the challenge kind of thing, but, uh, I hope I'm hoping I have about four letters this year. Gee. And I'm going to, I'm going to lay off breeding them. I'm breeding some of the stuff that I produced, uh, four or five and six years ago. So. Right. So they're making this back up there for now. You kind of produce them and then let them filter out. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, you know, challenge kind of thing. For sure. For sure. Does the, um, I think the last one of these, both of them, one of the, the, as I say, the former epiquities we're going to hit on was just to go back to the sub-flavus a bit and see kind of what lineages there are and of those, what, what you're working with. Um, and whether there's bad, it's the bad or worse than the team wars, phythons and the Dominican Red Mountain boats in terms of just, uh, when you touch them, they, they're just, you know, next thing, you know, you're going to have fluids all over the place and it's just a really stress, a high stress situation. Yeah. Um, they're, they're like Puerto Ricans. Um, Dino, the, uh, XSST manager, uh, worked with him, uh, on the island and, uh, he said it was a crapshoot. You could, you could pick one up and get mangled and you, or you could pick one up and it should be docile. Uh, I, I, I just wish I got the docile gene, but I don't. Even the ones that I'm trying to handle that I produce or gifted to me as babies, uh, they just remain skittish. It's, um, I handle them enough to, uh, once they learn, I guess, your smell, uh, then they, they're not as defensive, although they are really skittish. Um, you can't do a quick problem. Yeah. That does remind me of the, the team wars. I got a pair of very small team wars, back before I'd gone to college. And so we're talking maybe three, four months old. I didn't have all the collections pretty small, maybe 20, 25 animals. So I literally helped them every day. And after the three, three to four months or so, they stopped just, you know, defecating all over me. And then that, the remaining, you know, eight, eight, nine months that I had them before I went to school, they were totally fine, totally relaxed, no problems at all, just took handling them literally every day. But then I, uh, went to school, couldn't take them, couldn't take them with me, came back a year later to pick them up and, you know, they hadn't been touched during that time. And they were right back where they started for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Imagine that. But, uh, yeah, the adults that I have, um, all this stuff is gifted. I mean, um, it's taken me years of just kind of basically badgering people. Right. So, well, I'm showing that you're really serious about what you're doing. I mean, that's the big part of this too. Right. It's just, it's very clear. Okay. Give them, you know, I'm open to giving Jeff something because I know he's, you know, really genuinely interested and has been taken super seriously and give it the best. The best Karen is just a straight up, honest person, you know, if there's an issue, he'll let me know that. Yeah. And that's, and that's why I, I gift this, you know, I gift it away because, you know, folks are kind enough to do this for me. And I'm talking about people that own even friends. Some of it's not mine. Some of it's just here on loan. And it could be called back at any time. But, you know, the idea is that if they're known to be unrelated, those are the ones you breed. That's why when I give, I gift stuff away, it's, I normally just give gift one. There's no point in giving you two animals that you're going to breed back to each other. And there are enough out there that you should be able to come up with another animal on your own, or I can, I can point you to somebody that might be willing to gift you an unrelated animal. Right. And there's that. So I guess that's the sub-flavist, is the same apply with the inner and oddest, or is the gene for working with not wide enough to allow for that? I don't think there are enough inner and oddest out there. I guess whatever has been sold out of Florida, but I don't know who owns that stuff. I really know is, all I really know is the stuff that I've gifted out. Now, in those cases, I normally send two because I don't sex them. And I can always, I can always make it right down the road, if I have to, by providing the missing sex. But I just, I mean, what the hell am I going to do with 40, you know, 40 yards? There are amazing snakes, you know, very cool. And I'm glad there's, it seems like, you know, there's a handful of people, but you're right there at the very top of that, you know, handful of people that are, they're doing them or they wouldn't be here at all. So I think it's great. Absolutely. Well, yeah, I have to give a shout out to Clarksville because he's given me stuff over the years. I remember buying my first, my first Cubans from him in, I think, '89. And that was my downfall, I think. [Laughter] That's where it started. Those are certainly a heck of a snake. You don't have any of those right now, do you? No, I always get them and then grow them up in real life. Why did you buy these? Yes. Because I didn't buy these, I didn't buy these in the cage space. And I always get something that I want more at the time. So I end up selling them. I think I've had 90 at one point. Oh my goodness. Wow. That's a lot of mouths full of teeth that are coming for you, they're coming for anything. They can be pretty tame. Really? Really? Yeah, they can be real nasty as babies, but I mean a lot of babies are like that. But once they came down there, they're just big teddy bears. They're certainly impressive snakes, either way. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I guess we're going to shift gears a little bit and we're going to talk a bit a little bit about Corralis and some of the tree bows that you work with. We did get an email question in and it came from Shane Adamson. And he's got a couple of questions here, so I kind of hit them off one by one. You wanted to know if you could explain the scale count and how they're used to identify Hordelanus, Annulatus, Kukai, and Russian burger eye. Hello. I haven't, I haven't done. Okay. In probably 25. I mean, the difference between the Annulatus for the most part, unless pretty obvious, it's just, I don't see how you could make that maybe mixing Cenkrias and the Hordelanus all kind of a look. In that case, you may want to do get a shed and do a scale count. Okay. But some of the species, I don't just scale count. Okay. I just, I really personally, I just don't, I don't see a need for it. Okay. What about, yeah, I think, I think, I don't know if you're breaking up or I think you're breaking up a little bit, but he's also most interested in hearing your approach to or thoughts on breeding equatorial species. Thank 12-hour photo periods and 12-hour heat. Okay. Depending on the species, the pretty lax to pretty demand the Annulatus, it's not really a big deal, at least it hasn't been for any of the if it gets up to 30, they're lucky. Okay. Stringing, when it comes to humidity, regardless of weather. I think, I think, is a stale. I don't know if your connection is shoddy, but you keep going in and out. Like, we're getting, like, we're getting every other word here. Yeah. Yeah, it's my great global connection. There it is. Thank you. Let me show you their company. Yes. Yeah, we got it. Okay. Yep. Well, there it goes again. Oh, here we go. Yep. All right, we can hear you now. Okay, really? Don't worry, before we get on the fun. Right, should we have them try calling back in before we hit the end of the two-hour deal? Yeah. Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, yeah. Call back up. Yeah, just call right back in. Yep. Okay. This is why we have Rob on the show. He's the one who tells us what to do. So, good job, Rob. Good job, Rob. Once again, proving that eventually Rob will replace Owen as co-host when Eric, when, once Eric wises up, I mean, that's Jesus. Oh, and I'd love to get to worry about that ever happening. I think he really loves you, and then what do I have to do to get fired? Jesus. I mean, yeah. I don't know what you can do, man. Nothing. Are you back, Jeff? Can you hear me? Yeah. Yes. All right, we got you now. Good, good. All right, we got some bad weather out there. Okay, so when it comes to Corralis, are you using UV? Do you use UV for them? No, I don't. I use just the four foot shop lights. Okay. I guess the commercial, the commercial. Yep. Lines that you get at the lows or the only thing I use. The only one that I make sure gets you to do. The rest of them, they seem to be fine without it. Okay. All right, and then let's see. The last question you had was, do you keep your animals together for breeding or do, or does he house multiple animals year round? No, I'll keep everything single. Let me just stick two males in there. Good. So, I think we're at every other word again. Uh oh. Eric? Is that what you're getting at again? Yeah, you can hear you now, and then you start kind of rolling, and then it's every other word. So, yeah, that or either you're having really long explanations. I don't know, so I guess. Oh, and do you want to move to the Ruchenberger Act? Yeah, I can. All right, so let's go to the Ruchenberger Act, because thank you, Rob, for explaining me how to say that word. So, is there a difference between the Venezuelan and the Trinidad localities when it comes to the Ruchenberger Act? The Trinidad's generally are the largest of the species. Okay. And the Trinidad, by and large, tends to be a unique color animal. Like a. Okay. A gold or a. They can look like the Costa Rican. Occasionally. And the Tobago's tend to be even bigger than that. I've only, and I did speak with the guy that. He said they're just. For an aisle. Probably the prettiest are the. The. Being. Probably. I'm still only getting, like, parts of you there. So it's still fading out. Yeah, it's one of those, like you, your mid sentence, and it's like, well, the prettiest ones are, and then it's like blank. And it's like, ah, so it's like, you're, we hear you, and then it cuts off. So I don't know if Eric's working on something, which he should be doing. Yeah, I'm trying. I have one of those things where it's like, I hope he's doing it behind the scenes right now. Yeah, but I guess we'll go. I know you said that the. Tobago's were larger than the Trinidad's. Even so they're the largest out of all. Yeah, they're. The animals I had took. Large. Large rats on the large size. Jesus. They were in the late 20s that. Inport. As adults and. Just, I mean. Unbelievable animals, just incredible. Kind of you have to really see the balloons. Awesome. So what localities are you working with right now? From mine and then. Two from. Mutton brought those in. Wow, it's been quite a few years now. And he, he kept something. So and it's one of those like. Yeah, I don't know what the technical difficulties are. Wonderful kicking our butt right now, but. Well, we've got a bad probably. Probably somewhere is a bad connection. Why don't we have you. Call back in one more time. I don't know if you've got another phone you can kind of grab or. Head better. Yeah, if you can, just do that. We'll see if that one works a little bit better. So we can. Number nine two eight five. Okay, okay. Bye bye. Yeah, alright. Hey guys, super frustrating. Yeah, I blame Rob. I blame Rob. About right, you know, yeah, yeah. Actually, you know what? No, I'm going to kick the blame off Rob. It's all Eric's fault. I was waiting for that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't blame guests or co-hosts that come in when we need them. Let's just go straight to the source. This is Eric's fault. Yeah, it was like. When you're super interested, right, man? You know, you don't want to hear. There we go. And it was it was. Hello. One of those like. Yeah. Alright, we got you, Jeff. Did you hear hell or oh? Oh, you heard all of it. It's a miracle. Here's the entire word. So maybe let's go back. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, we're going to go right back to the Russian bird ride. Okay, the localities that you're working with. What are you working with? Okay, I'm working with. Some some Venice Wayland that I had. And then the button brought in some from the UK from Gaz Mortimer. And I got I had some of those and and Nick held on to a small group of his own. So I managed to get one litter out of those tiny one. Two of one I stuck in the freezer right off the bat. I sent a buddy in one past. He's got two of them doing really well down in Florida. And I'm hoping I've got to grab it one right now. So see what happens. Very cool. And it says we're here down. I'm supposed to bring up your one male Venice Wayland that has some incredible color. Can you kind of talk about him for a little bit? I had a a gold pattern with Venice Wayland. It actually looked like either a Trinidad or Tobago. But that along with one of the its sibling passed at about the two year mark. Yeah, very cool. Now you did say that with all the different localities, you said that the Trinidad's were the ones that were mainly all one solid color. By and large. By and large, okay. Yeah, they can look sort of like the the green and off yellow Costa Ricans or the Panamanian versions. But by and large, they tend to be unit color like an olive drab or people think that's ugly, but I don't know. I guess beauty is in either beholder. I like the olive drab. It's like olive pythons. Yeah, actually it's very similar in color. It may have a very light pattern underneath. But you don't even notice it most of the time. But they're just monstrous animals, seven, seven foot easy. Jesus, wow. Yeah, I had them in one of those where they the vision Viberiums like 84 inches across. And that's what they needed. They needed that much room. Wow, that's a big animal. Yeah. Very cool. And how large do those get just on average? I guess across the board. So it's starting with the coat of Lincoln. All the way to the tobacco animals. Because they're relatively big for the corralis group, right? Yeah, they. The Ruchen Burger, I tend to be larger than the Horsilinas. And of the of the Ruchis, the tobacco, according to the guy that I spoke to, who actually brought one back, said that the tobogos were even larger than the Trinidad's, which can be seven feet easy as old adults. They can pound a large rat on the large size. Wow. Very cool. And then to hit back on the enulada some more, they really, they want to decide the the size of the internet, it's in the price of gaster and everything else you have. They're one of my one of my absolute favorites. They just want to talk about a little bit more. Can you refresh how many? So last year, you had what, five healthy colored babies? Is that correct? Yeah, yes. And you just held on to all of them? I mean, I don't know how to use part with the darn things because they're so cute. Yeah, I kept three here and sent two to a buddy that has I think six or seven of mine, six of which are adults now. And I think two of those are colored. One on six one was a colored and then the two orange babies. Like I said, the loss of the other three colored and the two black was on me. I just I assume that it was so late in the season that she wasn't gravid. The real, the real hero for annulatus is Paul Bradshaw that has been breeding those forever. And some of my animals came from him and the folks, the folks that have annulatus now, a lot of their bloodlines came from him. Yeah, I've heard the name, but you know, I certainly have never met him. What, is he still keeping him now? No, health problems forced him to sell off his collection. And actually, I honestly don't know if he's still alive at this point. It's been a long time since I tried to contact Paul. But he just, I don't know, he had a special understanding of these things. I mean, every other year, he had babies available, you know, for guys like us. Right, yeah, and they are in every other year breeder, right? I mean, more or less, all this stuff is. Yeah, yeah, they don't put that weight on as quickly as a lot of the other stuff. Sure. They make crappy display animals. That is a downside to annulatus, because you will never ever see them. Sure, they don't mind hiding under the paper or getting up under something, right? Yeah, they're not a, they're not a high box. Yeah. They will, they will crap and piss in the hide box and then lay in it. So, no, that's good. So, at least every other day, you've got to go through each of them and pull them out, clean your box, put it back. The only time they ever come out is when they're hungry. And that's depending on what size prey item you give them, that could be once a week, once every three weeks. All right, I was going to say there's this sort of thing that you definitely want to be feeding small stuff to, right? You don't want to be giving them a fake meal that's sitting there gut. Yeah, I'm a, like I said, I'm a big fan of small in Austin. And they just, they tend to come out more often looking for that meal. I try and have at least one or two rats always thawed out in the evening. But if nobody comes out, I just feed those rats to somebody else. Sure. They're unpredictable about, you know, when they want to eat. And their shed cycle seems to be a little longer than the rest of them. They may not eat for a month, you know, when they go into bed, you know. That's really interesting. I saw on your Facebook page from when you produced them in 2014 that the female was eating the unfertilized elven. That's certainly a common thing we've seen, but it was pretty cool that you got a picture of it. That's awesome. Yeah, she ate every one of them. I counted 14, but she had, she was already eating them when I came downstairs. So I have no idea how many there originally were. And I've had others do the same thing. I just never never got a photo of them. There's no mistaking that smell when you when you walk by, you go, you know, and you can tell that, you know, you hope there are babies in there. And then there's nothing because it was all sluggish and she ate them during the night, you know. Yeah, for sure. And they'll sometimes eat the soap horns as well, right? I'm sorry. Occasionally they'll eat soap horns as well, right? I haven't caught them doing that, but I mean, all the other animals do that. I don't see why they wouldn't, uh, why they'd be any different. I mean, I've seen the Puerto Ricans in the astriatus do that. You know, they know it and then if it doesn't move, it's precious. Going out, guys. You said, um, did you had put some together for this year? But you didn't really, not, not with super serious intent. So you're maybe not. I just, uh, I took the colored male and, uh, put him in with my largest brown female, just to see if, uh, if she would take because she didn't go last year. I thought, well, you know, she could go this year. But I really didn't cool them down like I should have. It's almost like once I drop the heat and you get into the, uh, the daytime highs around 78 or 79 and it drops into the high 60s, you never see them, they just stay hidden. Right. They, uh, they don't drink. They don't do anything. They just stay in the hide box or under the paper. Hmm. Very interesting. Um, it looks like there was another question here from Shane. He was asking about, uh, you'd heard there was a true cook at the Nashville Zoo and he was wondering if being semi-local to you, if you'd heard of that or you could confirm that. Yeah, I had talked to, uh, Curie. Um, they had two animals in there and one did look like a cook eye. But that was, wow, that was years ago. And, uh, so, and I think last year I sent him an email. Uh, I had found somebody willing to do the, the DNA work on a gratis. Uh, so I sent him an email, but he said that the suspected cook eye was no longer in the collection. So, uh, I take that for what it's worth. I mean, it was an old animal that came in. And I think he said in '93 or '94, uh, through glades or someplace like that. Sure. So it could have just passed away. Okay. He did say it was no longer in the collection. And that's, I mean, that's right. It's kind of one of those, for years was commonly mislabeled. But in fact, probably isn't here in the US, right? Is that, is that your impression as well? Uh, I haven't seen cook eye and, you know, basically since the last time they got imported, um. Right. Yeah. Saw the babies for sale, like in the back of reptile amphibian magazines. In the '90s. Oh, wow. You know, and, uh, anole years, yeah. Right. I imagine they didn't sell very well. Flying off the shelves, for sure. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then with those for so long, there was the, you know, people were calling the garden, you know, garden, Amazon. Oh, there's a cook, you know, $18 cook. No, that's not what those are. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. That was, that was sort of the pet shop, this gnomer, you know. Anything that was a tree boa was a cook's boa. Especially the garden phase. They were all called cook's boas. For some reason. Wood. I would, uh, I would recommend that, uh, for folks that are, that have a serious interest in Corralis, uh, to take up Bob Henderson's new book. He covers all the species to include a little section on Crow Pan eye. Right. That was going to be the, we, Owen, Owen and Eric always ask people about this. The species that they, you know, most want to have, or if they could have anything with no regard to law or, uh, legalities or money or any of these things. And I was going to proper that your white whale might be Cropon eye. Believe it or not, it wouldn't be, uh, I would, I would, I'd like to get my hands on, uh, Monensis or Grantai. Sure. Okay. The tree boa. Other possible. Yeah. Yeah. You're still tree boas though, so. Sure. I'll give you two points. Close, close, but no cigar. So. All right. When talking about, oh, is it, uh, Candoia, a Brony or I'm butchering that one, probably. Um. The Astralis. There you go. Astralis, whatever the hell Rob just said. So yeah, um, you, uh, do you have a new group that you got in March or something like that? We lost something sick. Ah, all right. Damn it. Damn it. This isn't even a brilliant Australia. I know. We're over the two hour mark. Yeah. Well, there was a lot of great stuff here though, man. That was good. Yeah. A lot. There's a lot. And we had to bring it back because we only hit about like half of the stuff that we have. Because there's a lot of stuff here too, still. Yeah. I just did buy that book though. Yeah. Yeah. This is why you have to trade. Uh, I think I saw, I just saw it on Amazon for 40 bucks. Well, that's not bad at all. I'll have to, not to follow your lead there. Did you let him, did you let him know that he's not going to be able to call back in and all that fun stuff? I'm, I'm doing it now. Okay. So you do that all about the Rob. You do talk why I do that. All right. Right. The Rob. Since you mentioned them like four times this, this episode, what do you think about me getting teamwork? Well, so I mean, they're interested. I feel the same way that Nick feels and that Ryan feels, and that I'm sure everyone else has had the damn thing feels about them, which is just looking at them. They're probably my favorite pipe up. I mean, they're heads of the intricate scaling and that they have a velvety feel. Like they just have a soft feel to them. And they're not a particularly strong pipe on either. I mean, they obviously have a good amount of muscle, but they're, they have this soft sort of like a cashmere velvet feel. So they're incredible snakes is the form. They're incredible. But again, they, I've dealt with them from the hatchling size through to, you know, wild adults that were long-term captive by the time I'm dealing with them. But I mean, shit, I, one of my first days at the Denver Zoo, I'm cleaning these teen wars that were in quarantine just to put them somewhere. I mean, they'd had these things next for 10 years or whatever. Wild-caught adults that had been there for 10 years. And especially at the beginning, you know, I'm trying to be super soft, super, I don't want to restrain the snakes, so to speak. Next thing I know, I mean, crawling into a heating bed in the wall. And I'm up to my arm in the wall holding on to the back half of this thing. And, you know, this, as I said, one of the first days, you know, and they say, well, you know, I can't congratulate you for this. But I am glad that, hey, you found the weakness in the system here. And that you found it with an onset of a snake. So I guess, well, you know, we'll say fine. We'll just patch the hole, but you're still kind of an idiot. We're looking at it a little bit, yeah. We're going to call this a C-minus for the day today. Yeah, not your finest hour, for sure. Yeah, yeah. You know, I've been there through that. I got those babies, though. After that experience, I got the babies myself and everything. If you hold the dang things every day, literally every day, putting just five, 10 minutes a day, and you get them when they're that size, and you do it consistently, those are great, man. And they won't shit on you. They have never really found them to be fighters, but, you know, they won't shit on you, which is just kind of, it's not as bad as a garter snake mask, but it's not great, you know, it's not the best. And, you know, they definitely are a skateboardist. I still, so when I moved a few years ago, I, a buddy of mine, who actually works at the zoo now, I said, hey, you know, keep, he had a bunch of fun stuff, it is how it's just, as I was in between moving places, and I took two pair of the team wars over there that were maybe year one size, and one of them, one of them got out and done walk about it. I, you know, three years later, the things he'll find is shed occasionally. I don't know what the damn thing's eaten, and he still doesn't think it's such a subject with his wife. So, we'll see how that eventually can, you know, but, yeah, it's not a walkabout over there, three years later, so, um, that's kind of fun. Like, I don't know, man, the upshot is they're amazing, they look awesome, and some more than others even, right? There is some variability thing, but, man, you just have to put in a lot of work, and so, it's kind of a question of whether you have the sort of collection, where that'll make sense, and whether you can get them small enough so that, you know, even if you say, okay, I'm willing to get shit on for, you know, every day for three months in a row, I'll eventually get to the sweet spot, and I can enjoy it, you know, and just continue to do that. So, I think they're a great animal, I do think they're a great animal, but I think they're a great animal for somebody as, I don't know, a few dozen, a few dozen animals, not probably not what you're working with, um, not what I'm working with, and certainly not what Eric's working with, you know. Yeah, but, but also, you gotta understand, it's like, it's like, this is another one of those, it's almost like it's a wet lip, it's like, this is another one of those psychotic, very pretty, kind of crazy ones, and I'm like, oh god, this is, now you're talking my language. Oh no, believe me man, the appeal is very strong, incredibly strong, you know, one of these things where, I'll put it this way, look, I've fallen for the sirens call, either three or four times, you know, you get them, you get them, you get them, you know, where, you get them, once a year later, you get all the things. I've done it three or four times, man, and even now, Eric's telling me that you're, you're looking at them, and so it gets me looking at the case neck ass, and I'm like, yeah, do it, you know, and again, get again. Well, I ate, you're bladed for me because Balen was like, I got all these, and I'm like, really? Because, yeah, it's awesome, and I'm like, oh my god, it is, so what would you say Jason Balen is making you spend money on snakes? I mean, I thought those days would be far like, like behind us, but god damn it. So why don't you wait, why don't you wait till he breeds him? I don't want to, I want to down. Okay, because I mean, I do think Eric, that's those true captive bred, so I've never had that, you know, I've never, they have, four words you used to, used to back when they believed in it, wholesale something to Cameron, and I just missed out on getting some back that first year they go, well, you know, the last year they had done it, which would have been like, oh three, something like that, um, oh wow, and I think those animals are totally different. So if, if Balen breeds them, if Terry breeds them, those are the sorts of men, if you help those things every day, yeah, phenomenal phenomenal. They'd be like carpet, they'd be like carpet pythons by like, the time they turn one, she's, yeah. Yeah, if I ever work with them, that's what I'll hold up for. No, no, you know, after born and bred. You make a very good point, because I have captive born and bred white lips now, and they are ten times better than my wildcocks. See, like, so I think when you're doing those kind of projects where you're doing and you're dealing with either, you know, long-term captives or wildcaught or anything like that, I think that has to be like, you have to really be particular about how many of those projects you're working with, because I think it needs a bit more attention, I guess you would say, in order to be successful with it. So if you have like, I don't know, and I could be totally wrong, but my, I guess I'm talking for me, if I had white lips and team horse and bowlins and how my hair has, and all these things that don't breed, I don't think that I would be able to focus in and get job done, whereas if I just was working with a species, I might be more successful. If that makes sense. And my, my, my theme that comes to that is, I think I can have more success if I leave them alone. Like, I don't care if my guns are nasty. They can be even to be my friends. I need to make little teamwork by guns. So if I set them up in cages with some bioactive stuff, right, I don't need to go in there and poke around every, so every day, they would probably, you know, maybe be a little bit more prone to breeding. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that certainly, I think that certainly helps. They definitely, yeah. I mean, I think that is an apt comparison. It's saying when you're seeing team wars and you're talking about, well, what's, what's it like to breed them? I do just think their natural stress hormone level are probably akin to what we see in a lot of the scratches, like what you're seeing in your tanning bars and stuff like that, so that like, if any little thing goes wrong, it's not going to go right, you know, and so you can remove variables like setting them up, keeping relatively hands off as much as you can while still maintaining a good, appropriate environment, maybe keeping them in a situation where they can tell you when they want to breed by having linked cages or co-hailing them or whatever the situation may be. I think all those things are good ideas, but I mean, the upside is these have been bred and it doesn't make them any more, or at least, it hasn't made them the new ball python, right? They're not being all over the place just because even amongst folks working with captive bred animal, it's not, they'll never be easy. They may, that helps, but they'll never be easy and straightforward because they're just naturally a, they're, I think they're smarter and they're certainly more inclined to be stressed. Right, I would agree and I'm kind of just taking a page out of Andrew's book when it comes to how I would do it. He has two Nile monitors set up at my place in my living room and he literally, because he knew I had no idea what I was doing, he set it up so that I would have to not do anything and the male has been trying to breed this male for several months now. They're going to breed, but it's like, you hear about all the guys who are like, I try to handle my Nile monitors. Every day they came down, why won't they breed? Well, you are also going into their cage and pissing them off every day, so, you know, I don't know, I had a hand off, and some animals might hand off. Yeah, I mean, it's the same thing if you handle the team wars every day so they didn't respond with a stress response when we touched them. Yeah, those may or may not be left likely to breed. I really don't know, you know, that's where I couldn't say, certainly it would cut against what we normally do. We normally don't say, hey, I'm trying to pair you up, let me go in there and manhandle you for 10 minutes, right? I agree, I understand. Yeah, I propose an experiment. Rob, we have Eric by you and me, both a pair of team wars, you handled them, I won't, and then we'll meet back here in 100 years and see what's going on. I like this idea, and it's a great idea. Eric, oh, sure, no problem. Yeah, good job, thank you. I mean, just one pair, though, maybe we need two pair to make sure we have a real real real real real. Yeah, I don't want this season to be going strong for you, and then the male craps out, you know what I mean, or the female, did you put on the right weight? You know what I'm saying? So 2.2 is probably better. 2.2 each. Yeah, better up. Good thinking, Rob, that's a good idea. Eric, I'll have them shift to your house, I'll pick them up when I see you press, or when we return. Yeah, very good. Yeah. So, Rob, I know, I know we, I've talked to you about this a lot, but I'd be curious if you could share with the listeners how your Hal Mahara scrub project is progressing for you. For it, yeah, I mean, the upshot is, I don't think that anything is happening at this point, but I mean, that's not really right to say when I say anything, because I do think something's happening. I think she's going through her cycle. Right. I have some setups to say, as we talked about, in linked neodactics cases, so that the female can access the male whenever she wants to. The male actually never goes into her cage, but she'll come in on a daily basis and just kind of check it out and do what's going on. And she is very fascinating to watch the behavior in terms of like where she likes to ask, you know, essentially never hit the floor. She'll use, and I just have a 29-watt basketball there, and she'll sit there, and then she'll go over on the males, the person's perch access point in the males cage. He mostly actually stays on the floor underneath the cork bark, not directly on heat, but within access of heat. And yeah, I mean, she's off food now. She shows dark, but I mean, as you know, Eric, and these, these, as much as, you know, any others would do a change color between 90-day, you know. Now, look at her little light drop, especially this time of year. Man, she looks really dark, just super dark. But, you know, and the thing that I notice now is that this time of year, it's never super light. Like, you know, that picture of Eric hosted multiple times. The one that's on the site now, too, where she just looks like her light color is very light, and then her dark color is just like a super light caramel look to it. She doesn't, yeah, she doesn't look like that this time of year ever, you know, in the middle of the day or anything like that. So, she's certainly, her range is more narrow. This time of year, and she will get darker when she's dark. But, I don't know, man, has at some point, I think it's just a matter of doing them day in, day out, the same thing, and putting them on a schedule. My post to MP was when I broke down the annual rainfall in Goleila on Mahara, where I looked at it and converted it and said, "Okay, well, I put .02 inches of rainfall and translate that into a second of misting, and then I, you know, stagger this out." I can actually replicate the seasonality, not in terms of the amount, but the seasonality of that misting. So, I have done that. I've been doing that since October or so, and the reason I actually shifted to do that is because there is no clear seasonality to the rain that they get there. I was thinking, "Oh, well, you just missed heavy this, you know, for these three months. Who knows what heavy means?" But, that's sort of an idea. So, I looked at it and said, "I can't make sense of what's happening here." So, I just needed to convert it into some action that I can effectuate on a day to day basis. For example, a day, four seconds of misting, you know, okay, then you look at it and say, "Oh, May 3rd, 37 seconds of misting." Obviously, there's a bit of difference there. Day after that one second, two days of nothing, then four seconds, then four, then four, then one, then nothing. It seems like it's, again, this is all limited, right? I only looked at a year because I needed to figure out some way to convert it. And, certain sense, too much information would just clog it out. So, it'd be even more confusing to me. I wouldn't be able to see what was going on, but between that, so attempting to do that, which, again, it's not my imagination. Certainly, it's my conversion, but it's not my imagination on a day to day basis of what's happening, except that it's offset by six months because that's Southern Hemisphere versus Northern Hemisphere, so I did do that. And then I have them on a light cycle that runs from 13 to 10 from the high to low during the year. And the room naturally cycles down to maybe maybe seven years. So, looking at the temps there in Galala, which is one of the collecting sites for these, I tell you, man, I was like, okay, well, I'll see a temps cycle. It'll make sense in the same way. There was no pattern. There's no pattern to see. I was in a very macro sense. You might say there's a pattern, but realistically, there just wasn't a pattern to, at least it was obvious to me in terms of plotting out the data and just looking at it and saying, what am I seeing here? Generally speaking, it ranged between the, you know, 77 and 87, right? I could count on one hand the number of times, the nighttime low was lower than that over the course of a year, and I could count on two hands the number of times the daytime high was above 87 or 88 over the course of a year. I mean, that's the temperature. That's what it is. In the same way that I talked about with Jeff a little bit earlier, I'm, well, my room naturally does things that accentuate what's happening here, and I'm playing into that because I think, as we've talked about that there's probably a list of triggers, and it's not necessarily that you have to hit one, you know, this item A, item B, or item C, but you just want to increase your odds by doing as many things as possible and trying to push the boundaries. So even though realistically their cycle, you know, is not, in terms of exposure to daylight, this is not as strong as the 13 hour, you know, 13 11 down to 10, 14 that I'm exposing them to, hopefully those just feel it that much more strongly. At the same time, it's not like I'm turning the temps to 50 and making them stick. You know what I mean? So I don't think the light thing could have that impact. So for anything to me, because all the literature and all the everything we've all heard says, man, it's homaher is just wet all the time. And certainly when it is wet, it's very wet. From looking at the years worth of data, when it's wet, it's often very wet, but it's not, it's also frequently dropped. The total precipitation, in terms of rainfall for the year, is actually only the same as you get up in birth for us. Just keep them outside. Just put in, just put a little, you know, pick one on it and I put a heat lamp on them and keep them outside. I'll be breathing helmet hairs before I know it. Right. Right. You know, so, I mean, obviously that's being facetious, but we got to do that. Okay. Like how much, you know, everyone says, oh, it's always wet. I looked at it, the total average rainfall, said to say it's the same as you, same that you, if you say where you live is particularly wet. No. So, right. So, you know, Eric and I had talked about this. I'm not saying anyone's wrong. Certainly they're just speaking to their experience when they were there, but that doesn't mean it's the complete picture. You know, like, sure. I mean, first of all, if I only showed up on those days and it rained a lot, I would say, man, it's really wet. It rained a lot, but it doesn't mean I have a complete picture of what happened. Right. All right. Yeah, that's, I don't know, hopefully, we could, you know, hopefully you crack that. I think I believe you will. Crazy thing is, is that my female refused food for the first time I've ever had her. It was weird. I've never had her deal with that. I don't have a male. I only have a female. That's what I was going to send her to Rob, just say, why are you ruining this? Um, and the problem is that you send her to Rob, and now Rob has to take seven years to get her all acclimated and ready to roll. Right. I mean, that, that is the thing with them. I think there's, I don't know that it's seven years, but I do think it's why, you know, who are we seeing with having this edging close to success, right? It's okay to you. And it's, what does this new hat, I always say this, and I feel like a broken record, but to me, it feels so vital, especially compared to the opposite last 18 months or you own up until the last, you know, 18 months, is like as young people who move around, we're running a place, maybe we're running a place where we're not supposed to have stuff. So they, you know, your next thing, you know, your rope reptiles are moving them out in the middle of the night. You're not going to be bringing home a horror python, but you have to move around the middle of it. You know, it would not work well. So the advantage they have is just the routine, you know, of every, what, you know, what, what's the female at OKC? One of, you know, I guess they've had two that have turned flags at this point, but what's that animal doing? It's doing the same thing on this Tuesday that it was doing, you know, five years ago on this Tuesday, sitting in the same cage with the same cage, you know, thinking about eating the same one. Right. You know, yeah, I think that's a huge part of it, especially with, you know, when it comes to scrubs, seems, uh, you know, long term, uh, if you want to be successful, it's a long term project, for sure. So, but yeah, I understand the frustration, you know, I mean, as right, if it's, it's certainly, if it's one thing to say, oh, it's not instant gratification. It's potentially never gratification, if it's not an instant gratification, you know, you could, you could keep going and never get it. Most most of the left health species, if you just, if you keep at it, you'll get lucky. I mean, even if you'll never repeat it, you'll still might get lucky one season with a lot of scrubs, you could, like, rob to keep trucking and doing everything right and never hit it. Yeah. I mean, you know, she could get to the point, you know, where, man, she's, she's totally honest. She's going to do it. Next thing, you know, she gets a brain tumor and she, you know, falls out of a branch after, you know, 18 years of work and there it goes. There it goes, you know, like, it's totally, totally how you get the eggs, but none of them are viable. It's like, you could go, you can go that route where, okay, problem number one is solved. I got eggs. Now, problem number two, get fertile eggs. I mean, like that, you could also go down that road. For sure. What's wrong? Oh, man. Why are you doing that again? Success. Yeah. It's like a pet. Oh, man. I just understand where he has the room for all these monitors, these big lizards. Who, Andrew? Andrew, you, what, I mean, Andrew's blade is really just outsource to you and have you built, you know, the 40 by 20 years for his stuff. He and I trade. Like right now he has my ruffies and a few other carpets that he's like power beating for me. This way I could say I don't power beat my animals. Oh my God. Oh God. I know the truth is out. Is he keeping them in, is he keeping them so that they have 135 degree basking spots as well? Oh, yeah. Well, he can't unplug the monitor thing. He's cooking them all. No. Right. I mean, that's what we have. We have a job around every day, you know, every day, every day, every day. I had to yell at him the one time because he's like, oh, I fixed your diamond pipe on every time I was hungry. I'm like, no, they don't know when to stop eating. Don't eat the diamond ever. So I had to take them back. So I came back like twice the size they were when I sent them there. So anyway, I was wondering that because when I saw your diamond pipe on, you posted a picture and I'm thinking, geez, my mind is, I know, right? Good morning. That one, that one kind of got away from me. I'm figuring it out. All right. So Eric, this is different, right? Then the picture he posted where I responded to you and said, is he's trying to show us like, you know, the follicular development? And you said, no. Like eight months old, that's a rat. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's the same. All right. All right. I'm a monster. What do you want to do? So what? So he's got those animals and I have some other animals because he does run out of cakes just fast because he raises a lot of his baby monitors in groups. And like one week, they'll be all happy, all sharing their food. And then the next week, they've killed one of them. And they're all in him and now they're picking on the other one. So he has to separate them out. And what he does is he continuously separates them out until he has his breeding groups, which are normally one male and maybe two or three females that he gets along with. And that's how he ends up getting success with the X. So the reason I had the Nile monitors is because Niles apparently jumped really quick to the, I'm going to murder everything in my cage face. So out of his group of 10 Niles, two of them survived. And they happen to be a pair and they happen to be in my house. And then I have a pair of his doomroll monitors because the doomrolls got kicked out of their cage to make room for more Nile monitors. So they're here and you know, I don't really do too much with them. So yeah, that's the whole deal. I mean, I have a tremendous amount of respect. I mean, it's really unreal the work he's doing with these things. But I think it's hilarious that he likes these species that are like commonly considered to be the garbage animals, the hobby. You know, which is great. I liked it. He likes what he likes and it doesn't matter. But it's just very funny. Like, you know, like, maybe one thing if you said, oh yeah, well, he's making room for, you know, ladies. You know, let's get some bells, ladies in there. It's another day. Oh, no, no. You know, he needs to have 35, 30 dollar Niles. It's great. Well, nice. And that's, that's what I can't get help because I'm like, so because he's got now he's got Western and Eastern Niles and he's sitting there. He's trying to explain to me the difference between the two. And I'm like, that one looks funnier and has a black tail. And he's like, shut up. I'm like, all right, well, I can't help you here. So, and that's what he says, right? Oh, and you're credit. Yeah. Shut up means that's correct. You're just not appreciating how that's. Thank you. It's just the same, it's the same tone that Eric gives me when he's like, look at the side, I'm like, it looks proud. It's like, you know, that's the same shut up and get out of my snake room that I hear from him. So it's just kind of how it goes. Now, with the breeding of the Niles and the reason he's kind of investing so much into the 30-40 dollar animals is because he's kind of convinced that that faucet of importation with them will be turned off soon. Sure. So, I mean, and not just because of the invasiveness of Niles in Florida, but also because of the fact that they're bringing in like thousands of cool things. Yeah, sure. Actually, that's a good point. I'd forgotten about that. When I was down in Tampa, we did go down to the the waterway to check out all the Niles that live out of the pool, actually big Niles. Yeah. That was, you know, that was something. He's already prepared and he's already trying to set up breeding groups. So when the rules are passed down, he has, and the importation falls, it does stop. He now has raised up animals that are ready to breed, if not already breeding. He's kind of doing a future thing. Right. The point, my question was you raised, and this is something you can speak to, you know, at least watch them darn things in your house, is like, I get that that's accepting that all of that is true. I mean, are they something that is a good pet? So to speak, like, should that be, you know, it's easy to say, me, Kimberly rock monitors, fabulous animals that do great. I couldn't love them anymore, and I feel confident giving them to, you know, any established monitor person. I've always been told that Niles are mean and get huge, and I won't have the space to properly care. I don't believe I will have the space to properly care for them as they get older, but right now as juveniles, I absolutely love them, because I am perfectly fine being hand off of them. I put their food on a plate, I put the plate in the front of the cage, and I closed the door. They run around the eat, I literally gave them a ton of cork bar tubes, and then buried those cork bar tubes under a ton of dirt, to which they are spending probably three hours a day just doing nothing but excavating the tunnels, which keeps them occupied and busy, and suddenly you got to stop looking at it like a lizard. You got to give them shit to do, or they run around and tear apart the cage. They will hang out under the lamp, they don't give a shit if I'm walking around, they might puff up and then run into a tunnel, but that's it. But again, I can perfectly fine being completely hands off of them. I don't think that they're an animal that would be somebody like, I don't think you should have your $10 Savannah monitor for a month, and decide that this one's doing well, I'm going to go get a Nile next show, that's a stupid decision, but that's kind of almost half the collection the danger has, is animals that I think would be more of an advanced or intermediate, because he's got the black throats, he's got the beef throats, he's got the mangrove. I don't think he has anything that I wouldn't consider an advanced fucking lizard. I know right? He is a spinelosis now. Yeah, it's not, it's not a negative, I'm just saying like, he had it from the perspective of like, who the fuck are you going to sell these things? Like, it's amazing to me. I don't know. Who are you going to sell them to? Like, but the monitor people do the same thing like what Jeff was saying, they don't sell to people, they just like, hey, you do great work with miles. I would like miles, I have a lace monitor. How about you and me do a thingy, and then they do that, and that's what they do. So, that they barely sell to people, to the public, they almost exclusively talk and trade to each other. Like, one of Andrew's friends in Philadelphia works almost exclusively with water monitors, and he and Andrew are going back and forth about breeding water monitors, and working with the black throats, and that they're going to trade eventually when people in this pair of breeds here, and that pair of breeds there, they'll swap. So, yeah, Andrew just sent a bunch of, I think, two or nades down to that guy to breed, or something like that. So, it's, it's basically trading around, so... That's right. Yeah, no, I mean, again, I couldn't have more respect for it. It's just, it's totally fascinating, and totally strange, you know, because it's like, I'm just looking at it saying, I couldn't, yes, water monitor is totally amazing, right? I couldn't have one, let alone six, let alone two dozen, you know, like... Yeah, I don't have space, you know. Exactly, the space, or just the time, and... The time, the food bill, you know, the money to put that food into the different things, you know. Exactly, it's my, my, like, three-month food bill is like, maybe, maybe a month for Andrew and his friends, just because of what those animals need to eat, and it's just funny, because I've pretty much been dragged kicking and screaming into monitors. It was like one of those here, hold this, and I'm like, well, what the hell do I do with it? And then being told what to do on the fly. So, it's been fun, but if I did not know Andrew, or had this, like, thing where he was right there, would I keep him, hell no. Like, hell no. I am the kind of guy who will stare down a angry 10-foot white lip coming right at me. Give me, like, a two-foot Nile monitor, and, no, I don't want to touch it. No, this thing got nails and teeth, and it's got other weapons, no thanks. So, with that sandwich, that, yeah, now for sure. I get hurt. It does. It hurts. You know, if they get you, but the thick part, you know, thick faces is down there, that can cut. It'll cut. No, yeah. And it's funny you tell, because Andrew has all these monitors. Andrew's, what if there's all the iguanas? So, like, for what, like, what little space has now been taken over by, like, Cuban, or by, by freaking, uh, rhino iguanas. So, oh my god. Yeah, I'm, um, wow. I mean, it sounds like their place must be totally fascinating. I just, I'd have to see it to believe it. Like, it sounds crazy. Oh, yeah, it's fun. It's funny. So, and with the spacing, like, I get to get, like, so many snakes in here, like, all taken up by lizards. But, yeah. Yep. Hi, Eric. You're still here. I am. I am here. Um, we've ignored you, but you, that doesn't mean you're not. We have. That's okay. You talk your monitor talk. Eric's, like, I had crested gecko's one. So, like, I had an animal with legs. That was funny. I'm going to set up a tank of these guys. They're going to be fun, like, a week later. He's like, I hate these things. I'm like, that's great. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. Are you going to join the club? Are you going to stop doing shows, man? I'm telling you, it's the way to live. Eric and I are just doing it just too timidly. That's it. I need to be honest with you. Um, after the past two seasons that I've had since I moved up here, that has been a very serious consideration of mine is to quit doing shows because I haven't had that many babies since I moved up here because I can't get everything right yet. So, um, I will, I seriously considered backing down to just doing tingly park and letting it ride, you know, just going up to Hamburg and the show is to get my food and scout out animals. So, yeah, I mean, I just think, you know, it'll give you so much more time to spend with your own stuff, you know, and not worrying about it from the commercial side. Just looking at it saying, hey, man, I'm just enjoying my own stuff, you know what I mean? And I think, I think you'll enjoy it. To be honest, I, you kind of, with a lot of, with the whole move and the stress of moving the whole collection, and of course, I did have some animals get sick and a bunch of other things that ended up happening, you know, which I can attribute some of it to the move, some of it being just animals and it being their time to go. You kind of got, I kind of got pulled away and a little bit more stripped out this season. It pulls to other ones and Eric can definitely tell you that that was, it's been one of those seasons for me. Yeah. So, and, and it was one of those, like, you know, which is probably one of the reasons that I am going within to the Southern Carpetfest because I need a break. I just need to kind of get a little bit, get a recharge. Yeah, get a recharge, kind of reconnect it and get rejuvenated back into the hobby. That's kind of why I was speaking of your friends of mine. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's kind of why I started getting calibrates again, because it's like getting back to the basics, getting back to what brought you into it, getting some of the animals that originally got you to as part of it. So, it is one of the decisions that I will probably be thinking about in the next couple months, is if I'm going to continue doing regular reptile shows like Hamburg, which probably only won't really regularly do any more because I already dropped out of Oaks and the other ones around the area. So, it's something that I'm pointing with. I can be honest with that. I'm not sure if everyone's going to do it. I'm going to make that choice for you. You don't have the baby. You don't have the baby to see it out. I have 30 eggs on the ground. And I have four babies attached. So, out of those 34 babies, I have to try to make that last till next season. So, and sometimes they will. Sometimes they won't. Will I have enough to fill up my entire display to Timley in October? Probably not. Um, will that be a problem? No, because the cashier's table width is a quarter. So, he will always have animals to fill the table with. I don't want to be standing there going, "Did you explain to me your caramel albino? They're not mine. They're that guys." And I stand there the entire time. I would leave the table and go shopping. So, um, you know, I think, I think the, uh, I can say for myself, you know, it's kind of like you get burned out. Um, the one thing that I've been doing is just sort of like learning about other species. And when I, when I'm doing that and I'm mostly reading books, I know people don't read books anymore. You know, it's like, uh, it's, it's probably the one spot that's probably, uh, people should visit most often at a reptile show and probably don't. Um, the book, you know, the table that has all the books. Um, anyway, um, what, what I've found is that it has rejuvenated, uh, my feeling because I'm now focusing on, um, learning about new things. Um, and not really getting involved with the drama of the day to day. Uh, you know, I would say Python world and I'm focusing on my animals and I gotta be honest, man. I kind of love it. You know, I mean, I kind of like, you get more fun behind the scene. Yeah. Hmm. And you know, there's, there's the thing of, you know, I, uh, I'm going to miss that in the bud right now. You said the word, you said the word sparked out and whatever you say, the word in the reptile community, it's like the vultures start circling above my carcass. So it's like, I'm, I'm not burned out. And even if I was none of y'all would be getting my rough skills. So don't even email me. All right. I'm not happening. So it's one of those things where you kind of got to just get reconnected, get rejuvenated. And either that can happen from babies, actually, like the babies that has this past week, I love saying that. So, you know, I'm hoping that the next class that acts is going to be even cooler. But I would also, you almost got to just find your way back to where your passion really lies. So I, and we're just trying to find that out. And will that be, you know, I'm hoping that in October, I can, the blackface white lips again. Um, it's been, they've been an integral part of my collection. I haven't had them in a while. So I want to get those back going. Um, I, I'm hoping in the summertime, I can finally get the damn template and I can bring my roughies home. Cause, you know, even just going down and hanging out with them at Andrew's place is just awesome to me. Um, and then she's just kind of hoping to get, maybe it's getting into a new project, like getting the teamwork. Or maybe it's going to Bill's house getting drunk off my ass and passing out at school and you're creating numerous things that could do that. Shaving isn't it? You are, you are safe. What? Eric, shape my eyebrows. See, now you've done it. Now I don't want to go. So it's, it's, um, it's, it's one of those things. And you know what, even on the other side of Carpetfest, I might feel 10 times better. Dude, dude, do you realize that you're going to be going down to Texas to hang out? You're going to be hanging out with the guy that is the coastal guy. He's the coastal guy, man. Then you know, yeah. Yeah. I mean, dude, maybe, maybe I need to buy, maybe I need to buy panel animals from Mike while he's there. I'm just saying, like, for me, when I went back for you, I got to talk to, when you do that, when you talk to Mike, you got to ask him about his dog with Python and you also got to ask him about the call of our burrowing Python. You got to do that for me. Okay. And then you can give us an update next week. I've heard weird things about the burrowing Python's about like feeding and keeping them to the, apparently, the way they eat is they stumble into like rooting this and they eat everything and then slow their way. So I, yeah, no, I mean, they're probably fascinating, cool animals that come in as wild cause for, you know, the $10 pet shop animals, they're relatively uncommon now. And you just, they're never bred true, true, truly, never. Yeah. They're never bred. They're hard to breed. I'd love to see it. They're hard to breed. Nobody bothers. They're hard to breed or nobody. Yeah. They're very difficult to breed. Even when they come in, grab it. Um, X frequently don't hatch. It's rare even for them to hatch them out. It's sort of, it's like the, it's like the ball pythons from before, you know, before they started breeding, you know, with their eyes closed at four months for males or whatever, like, you know, back in the day, ball pythons used to be hard to breed because it'd be these wild adults that, you know, just wouldn't, they just wouldn't do it and needs to function in that very same way. And you never see small ones captured. So it's always these old adults. It's still only 18 inches, two feet long, but they could be 20 years old. Right. Jesus. Wasn't there a guy on reptile radio that was breeding them? That was a guest. He was, I think it was like a side thing that he did. Man, I can't remember who that was. I set up as a hamburger next to a guy who had the one on this table all the time. And now I know that they were imports. Please tell me the way he used to keep him is he used to get those boxes of like live rat fuzzies and the bedding. And he would just chuck it in the cage because then the burrowing pythons would kind of stumble across them and then eat everybody. And then so they're away. But like he threw it bedding and all and like five or six rat pinks, just like in the cage underneath like a hide. And the python would find it within a day, eat everybody. And then so they're all. Yeah, no, I believe it. And they would, they would actually unlike the ball pythons, they frequently do well. They just don't breed you. Yeah, they'll eat, you know, sort of those tricks like what you're talking about. They're presuming that's out back that you're talking about it. Is there kind of, it was not really sources. Really? Okay. It was not out back. I knew they hatched on where he got, I assume it's where he got his caliber is his burrowing pythons. But it was not out back who actually like I set up next to it. So, yeah, okay. Well, and the key point right, the key distinction here more stuff to research Eric is when we're saying these burrowing pythons, we're talking the caliber of our burrowing pythons, not the new world burrowing pythons, locks the penis, which are another or Mexican burrowing python, which are truly fabulous fascinating snakes. Dan Grumbach has some other than that. Basically, you don't exist here in the States. Truly amazing and truly amazing. Wow. Wow. Yeah. I'll have to check it out. Yeah, I've heard about it before, but I've never really like, you know, maybe learned about them, you know, just in panting I heard about. Huh. Awesome. All right. Well, we will definitely do that. I will. I'll ask them. Yeah. Eric, Eric will, you don't want me to try to ask questions because I'm on vacation. So, if I'm sober at any point during our little trip, Eric, something's going horribly wrong. So, you better ask all the questions. You're right, bro. So, and it's fine. Yeah, you're right. I can't. Well, if I fall asleep standing up, can you reach my eyebrows? I don't know. No, Bill, Bill would give him a step ladder. All right. So, Bill, Bill would put the on his shoulders and I would get the job done. No problem. Fire. Yeah. It's again. Oh, it's over. All right. Yeah. I can't trust Bill. So, yeah. So, I mean, well, a couple things that also that we have in the works. Well, I sort of happened to work, and I'm sure that Ellen's going to want to come along. I have in the works, but I'm going to make him do it too. Okay. So, go on. So, after the Northeast carpet fest, we're probably going to do some field-herpin at a spot called Black Hawk Mountain. See what we can find there. I'm also trying to get. What's that? Well, I can tell you right now that I was walking my dog just down the street, and he and I ran into this adult eastern water snake just right at the block. So, it's like, this is going to be like the perfect time for herpin if we go right at the carpet fest. Yeah. The other trip that I'm trying to put together is to head down to Florida, and I was talking to KJ, and he said that, you know, he would take us out to some of the spots that he's there. Go down there for a weekend, maybe come across some pygmy rattlesnakes or some eastern diamondbacks or, you know, that kind of stuff. So, hopefully sometime, maybe in August, I'm trying to time it out with maybe having a Daytona show the same weekend, you know, that kind of deal. Sorry, that would be cool. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, you know, cool weekend trips to get away, get your inner herd, tingling, you know. And now it's wrong. All right. So, well, we're going to cut off at any second. So, first Rob, why don't you throw out your website. Yeah. Sure. Okay. So, as I say, finally, all the links work, and it's got to open this year and all that stuff. So, go check it out. You can get there either by going to rhinorat.com or highplainsherp.com. Also, you got the Facebook thing. Highplains Herp should get you there, or like me Rob Stone, I'm going to be friends on Facebook or whatever. And as long as you're not a bot, then it's cool with me. So, yeah, that's about it. Awesome. Cool. Thanks for coming and hanging out with us and helping us get through the insular boa. No, thank you guys for having me. That was really great. And it's really too bad that it got cut off there because it got cut out out of amazing stuff to say. But I was glad to be a part of it, and maybe if he comes back, just maybe you guys will tolerate me a little bit more. But I'll definitely, I'll hop off here so you guys can close out. Okay, man. Cool. Thanks Rob. See you soon. All right, let's run this down real quick. All the Carpafests that are coming up. We got the Southern Carpafests this Saturday in Arlington, Texas, the Southwest. Carpafests is Friday, March 20th. That's out in California. The Northeast Carpafest is May 21st in Birdsboro, PA. Northwest Carpafests is September 10th. So, pretty much got all the corners covered. Right now, the Northeast Carpafest is doing a booster shirt to raise money for U.S. Arc. You get a cool Carpafest t-shirt and all 100% of the proceeds go to U.S. Arc. So, make sure you go over and you can find the links over on the Facebook page. Mariah Python radio. I'll take you right to it. Mariah Python radio. I'm hoping you guys like these etc. shows. If you want to hear more of them, just send me some ideas. That info at Mariah Python radio. You can message either me or Owen on Facebook as well. And check out our Facebook page. Mariah Python radio. You can see what's going on with us. Let's see what else. And then I think that's it for that. Ebemorrelia.com. That's me. If you want to get in touch with me, Eric at Ebemorrelia.com. That's all I got. All right, cool. You can go to Rogue Dash Reptiles for me. Check out all the latest stuff we have, all the happenings of Rogue, as well as the updates on our breeding journal. We're going to be doing some website tweaks so it's going to take a little bit to get everything back up and running. But if you have any questions, you can contact us via email there. You can also go and find Rogue Reptiles on Facebook.com. Give us a like. If you have any babies that you purchase from Rogue and like to have them in our sold babies album on Facebook, just send me the photo. Tell me what the animal's name is and give me their baby number. If you still got it, because I'll add that up there. No problem. I will not be at Hamburg. This Saturday, I will be in Texas. So if you are wandering around Hamburg looking for me, you will not find me. I'll see everybody there in the June show. And what we'll say is, thanks everybody for listening. We'll catch you all next week for some more Marrelia Python radio. Good night.