Morelia Python Radio

Jungle carpet pythons and Chondros with David Haisten of Chondro Jungle

Episode #242 In this episode we will be talking with David Haisten of Chondro Jungle about....you guessed it jungle carpet pythons and green tree pythons. In the first half of the show we will be talking about some of the history of the different lines and bloodlines of jungle carpets along with some of the projects that David is woking on. In the second half of the show we will be talking all about chondros and discusing the ins and outs of keeping them in captivity. www.moreliapythonradio.com

Duration:: 2h 59m
Broadcast on:: 13 Apr 2016
Audio Format:: other

Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Projekt. I've been herping since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markle and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links, so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. You're a buyer or a breeder, you gotta check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling definition full of features to help put you in touch with a perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, search by sex, weight, more or other keywords, and use our Buy Now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptile account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies to maximize your exposure with a platinum med. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buyer and a selling, shippingreptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. Shippingreptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shippingreptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. The materials needed to ship the reptile successfully live customer support in our live on time arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptile report.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder then visit shipreptiles.com to ship an animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Good evening everybody. Welcome to another episode of Moralia Python Radio. Tonight we have David Hastings of Condro Jungle joining us. I'm excited about this episode because I'm really into the history of the hobby part of it and when I listened to GTP Keeper Radio a while back. I actually was on the last episode. That was a while back. I had Tim Marsh and I really dug all the stuff that he talked about as far as the history of the Condro Hobby and I thought it would be cool if we could do it with carpets but I couldn't quite find the person. Well, no further David is the guy. He pretty much knows all the ins and outs of the history of jungle carpets and you know it should actin up. Oh no it's acting up. Yeah not the only one. I'm not the only one. I don't know. I don't know. Hopefully everything is coming through loud and clear. I don't know. If not download it later. Yeah that's a good thing about iTunes. But yeah so he's going to be on tonight and we're going to be talking about it. He also keeps as his name says Condro so we're going to be getting some Condro talk in there and it's going to be a good show for sure. He knows his stuff. David knows his stuff. But before we get going we have a couple announcements to make. I guess the first season last episode where we decided to retire and join the circus. Now that everyone liked to drop whatever they were holding. That's fantastic. But no it's carpets best stuff that we're announcing. Yes I think. I don't know. I kind of cut you off there. No no it's all you men go for it. All right. Uh carpets we're announcing that the booster for the Northeast the original and in my opinion the best because it's the only one I've been going to. T-shirt is ready to roll. We're going to put that out. We went live today. Eric and I were tedious in designing this T-shirt. By that I mean we had someone else do it. Um and then we picked the color which that took at least 10 minutes. I mean yeah so I want credit for that. Yeah um but the booster is up and it is an awesome design. It is a really cool shirt. Um for those of you who are listening to this on download by now of course links will probably have gone up on the pick of the week on Maralea Python radio.com on the Maralea Python radio Facebook page. Uh it'll probably be in the chat for the uh for the radio show so you can go check that out. Uh if you want just go ahead and grab up those shirts at 20 bucks each they will be shipped out to you. So like I said they're a really cool design. If you're one of those people that even though you can't make it out of the Northeast car profess you've been collecting them and I know there are a few of you because I have to mail you out your shit every year. So um again if you're an international person and you want to order them that's fine go ahead and order them put my address but with your name in it so it can be sent to me and then I'll talk to you when it gets here about shipping it out to you. We usually do snail mail so it's like 10 extra bucks to send it out to you which is totally awesome but there you go. So go ahead click over order that as many shirts as you want um and it's a really cool design. So that's all I got there for the booster. Uh what we'll also say is that now we are looking for people who would wish to donate for the auction for uh the Northeast car professed. Um I will be donating a $200 voucher. Eric will be donating a $2,000 voucher. Um whoa slow your roll there. Whoa no whoa. Wow. Too late I've said it so now you have to. Uh there's and then we'll probably try to uh get a few people in. We're having some t-shirts that we're going to be giving with the auction. Uh it's got deeper and his wife are sending those over which we have to work on that. Um and then there's probably gonna be other people uh that we're gonna get just put vouchers in especially because you know people like Nick and Hashem are all coming into the Northeast car professed. So I bet you we can you know finingle them a little bit twist some arms and get some people to donate vouchers which will be cool. Um uh there we go. Everybody was just in time to hear the $2,000 voucher. You be wherever I am. Oh wow that's perfect. That'll be so sick. That'll be so sick and it's only $200. That's awesome. Owen is putting up the remainder putting up the other $1,800. Yeah nope nope nope. Nope. Anyway that's all that. Do we have anything else you want to announce for that except that it's May 21st and everybody better show up. Yeah I just wanted to uh give a uh uh um I'm looking at my notes here um just wanted to yeah let's see we got the uh Bill. Bill said under penalty of whatever that we have to mention uh his car professed too. Yeah we can do that. Um yeah he called me cupcake so I think I'm serious. Um we have to give a thanks to uh Jeff Frederick. Um he is the one that designed um the uh the logo for the car professed t-shirt. Um he uh he also donated a custom piece of artwork um that will be auctioned off at the southern car profess but he also put one up for the northeast car professed. So there you go. Um he does amazing work um really really awesome stuff um so uh go over and uh you can find him on Facebook or whatever and uh check out some of the stuff that he's done but uh cool. Um sorry there's like a thousand people calling in and I'm saying these things light up and oh man okay so uh. There's too many lights you're all distracting him anyway. Yeah I know. Um but it is a cool design and he kind of approached us about it. It was really cool that he did that. So yeah we got a we got to send a big thanks to uh to him for sure. Um and uh we also I guess we can announce this um so we did the bones round table um a while back last I think it was last year right. Yeah okay. So uh yeah. We sort of sort of had this group message that uh we did during the show and um it seems to have taken on the life of its own. Yeah so you know basically every day we get uh free uh free schooling about how to keep and breed bones pythons and what these guys go through on the daily basis. They just roll with these conversations and I read everything and I'm like um I have carpet pythons. It's like I feel like this is like feel like the kindergarten or in full of high schoolers. It's like this is horrible but it but all you get is just this wealth of information and it's like it's like listening in on like a top secret meeting between very very smart people because it's like ah do you think this this this and I'm like I don't know it might. This could be helpful if I ever come across a bowling like in my backyard. It's the only way one would get into my collection. So it but it's really cool but they're off on the races doing their own stuff because they're planning a good like uh uh they're they're planning like getting all together at Tinley and probably picking each other's brains even further. So it's cool. Yeah so what they decided to do is is that they're going to have a uh a group meeting on Friday night at Tinley Park in October and yeah pretty much you know Frederick will be there, Casper will be there, Ari will be there, you know Chad's a part of that group. Keith McPee, Keith McPee, Kevin Wexler and then um there's the guy that bred bones, pythons and Costa Rica and his name slips me at the moment. Yeah go to the little thingy and go to the cats and see who's in there. Such an idiot. You suck so much at this. God how have we been doing this for five years? Um Quinselle? Why are you asking me about pronunciation? You know I suck worse than you do but uh yeah let's go with that. Okay. Yeah he was and it's like okay. No I was going to say he was uh he was another one that uh basically he bred his bones outside outside. Yeah he was a good one outside in Costa Rica but awesome. So you know they're going to have this big meeting and I guess you and I are going to bring them water during their meeting. I don't really know why we're. Well they're going to talk about the uh they're putting together a uh maybe a presentation that has to do with um you know uh the success that they've had so far and some of the yeah you know uh basically what's the word I'm looking for. They're basically looking to sort of uh you know I guess it's like a mini I guess it's a bones fest you know what I mean like they're just trying to get together and talk about things and ideas and see you know uh yeah just to add them all those folder information together. Yeah I mean out of all those people you have the people who've had the most success and who could have been like who could start really making bones more readily and captive born and bred bones more readily available. I mean right oh it is like Evans got probably the largest collection of the captive born and breds in the United States um Chad's got his pair which he's got the calculations and stuff out of his same thing with Keith, Frederick's just you know Frederick and then Ari has done all the studies on everybody running around out there like he's actually gone to where they are from he's seen them in the wild he's done all his research for that. So if anybody were to have continued success breathing that species it would be those guys in that group and uh I think they're going to be the ones that are finally going to start cracking and they're going to be the ones that are really going to start producing captive born and breds more readily. So right you'll be kind of listening on that stuff. Yes absolutely. So if you are interested in bones pythons um uh or if you have bones pythons and you know you're thinking about a way that you could uh you know maybe be successful with uh breeding them or even if you're just wanting to keep them uh you definitely want to stop by Tinley Park in October for sure. Um we're going to I don't know if we can pull it off but what I'm trying to research is how we could maybe do a broadcast uh from that uh from that event. So um it's possible. I'm not promising anything but uh we need a very large microphone. Yeah. Yeah yeah so uh I gotta I gotta see what's going on there. So so yeah that's uh that's two pretty cool announcements uh that uh you know it's have to do with the world of Morelia and uh well I still consider even though they're not I still consider them part of the uh part of the group um you know bones not being their cousin branch. It's fine. They're close. Yeah. Yeah um so yeah so I guess at some point maybe over the next couple weeks when it's just me and Owen we'll talk about our trip to nerd. Yeah. Um we went there and we did die. Yeah. Um so but tonight I mean I guess when I think of uh David's uh you know his approach to uh to Morelia I mean he pretty much uh got the best of the best in uh both groups. I mean Condros are the ones that people always love and jungles are the ones that people always love. So to do jungles and condros I don't know maybe he's smarter than the rest of us. Probably. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know but uh I was I went wrong there. I didn't you know. Trostles and call you very tight. I don't know where I went sideways. So um so I don't know if there's anything else you want to hit on or you want to just jump into it and get it going here. But just jump into it see where we go from here. Okay let's get David on here. Um I'm here. Hey how you going David? Good. What's up guys? I'm looking forward to this one. You know right on our Tuesday thing. So of course sweet. So why don't you tell us what got you started in direct house and what the hell led you to jungles and condros? Okay. It's a long story but I'll try and make it brief. Sweet. Like most of us I mean uh is a small child that is obsessed with dinosaurs. Uh mom taught me how to read at a pretty young age for um that being said I mostly looked at pictures. I looked at the dinosaurs and I was pretty much devastated when it was the uh I found out they're dead. I mean I was out looking found a fishnet you know. Little fishnet thinking there's going to be some in the grass in the field but you know and then uh damn. Looking it's like well this is what's left of them is uh you know these lizards and snakes and turtles. I'm like oh man these things suck. Oh is that a sauce? Yeah. You know what I actually did. Yeah right. No I mean um if I'd actually been reading the book I would have realized that like the lineage that led uh what are the mammals predates the dinosaurs. Siobhan. Pelica sores, unmitradon and all that. Those that's uh synapsid lineage. Mammals. They're old. Um or you know birds but snakes and lizards is what I what I went after and uh for some reason I've just always had an obsession with snakes out of the uh whole group. So uh mom brought me home a rainbow amoeba. This was the 70s like 1976 or so and it was pretty bad then. Dark ages. I mean hot rocks were coming out you know. Violet. No. And uh that rainbow amoeba is pretty much dead in 24 hours. So the guy at the pet who replaced it with a gopher snake and said it ate meal worms and you can imagine how that went. Oh my god. Oh that was not good. Yeah it's not good meal worms. Oh my god. What an asshole. I didn't even try. Yeah it was. Yeah it was bad. I mean uh basically in the 70s like you name it. I killed it. Um but you know it wasn't always a horror story. But um not pretty much it pretty much kept snakes. The mangrove snake. Those wild caught yank straight out of a straight out of the mangroves. Uh a Colombian boa constrictor. Pretty much it was like that until uh until I hit 14 hit high school and then I stopped keeping things for a while. Uh you know and I'm from a huge town in central California so during the priorities uh partying and surfing they're not ordered so not a lot of reptile keepers there. Of course you know mom's always the one to blame so you know after high school all said not she drops off a tixie frog on you know what the hell is this? So this meat eating frogs they got massive. Mmm. Took that. Seeing up there's a really old reptile store in the Bay Area called the East Bay of the Barium. It's pretty huge and they do things pretty well. It's it's old school but um back in the early 90s you could go in there and it had a lot of different things. I mean uh have like large well caught Kondro. I mean minimum price like a thousand dollars. You couldn't touch up. No. All kinds of stuff. Antirasia. So yeah I mean back in uh '93 I think I got my first python. It was a $39 well caught ball python and now it's just local and Santa Cruz and then uh right away I was drawn in Antirasia because they stay small. They can be kept kind of like a colibrid and a different book and there's uh old book A to Z of Snake Keeping by Madison. You know you could pretty much look in there and take your choice. Yeah so it's awesome. Yeah. You can see I told you it's going to be a short story and I lied because I'm going pretty loud on this point. That's totally fine. Yeah. Yeah so yeah let's see. Yeah I mean in the in early 90s uh there's a guy actually that lives 30 minutes away from me in Campbell. R&M Herpeticulture and they have pretty much everything like if you if you picked up the Ross and Marsec book with all the different species of pythons they had them. Just meaning they had a style of pythons, children's pythons. They had dumerals, fellas. I mean right when I walked in like boom there's a jungle carpet python coiled up on a stick and it was like yellow and black and that was just it right there. I saw that. You had different carpets and uh they had diamonds, they had diamond coastal crosses. Sweet. I ended up getting bought it. Yeah I mean that was really cool. In the end uh they ended up um he ended up closing down in the late 90s and I ended up with his uh his old breeder female jungle carpet and then a male his original male died and it probably was a diamond cross and I was looking at it all the time. I was really yellow and black but it had a lot of tipping and I'm like no I just never knew about it. I wasn't quite sure but eventually those ones I decided they weren't that great looking so I sold them. Okay and then I got all my entourage and uh cola bridge and pretty much um I mean the the mecca the holy grail since a kid was actually always the uh amazon basin emerald tree boat. That was my favorite snake but you know I looked at those other weird little guys the green tree pythons it kind of looked like them. So by 2001, 2001 I got my first green tree python that was actually from those same guys R&M hercetic culture. When they closed down shop they went around and they had to disperse their uh animals everywhere and they weren't really doing anything online that was probably part of the problem with them. It wasn't really big yet um so one of their uh in the end they were doing green tree python so one ended up in a a pet shop close to me and I stared at it for a couple years. Finally 2001 I I went in it wasn't being cared for very well so I made them an offer they couldn't refuse $450. And that was it. I took it. Okay so that's not a short story right? Same role. Yeah it's a short because we assume it's like everybody else's. Now that I got one of each I just have to get more of them and then exactly more or less yeah. Awesome uh so can you go ahead. I'm sorry I thought you were going to say something but um oh yeah yeah no that's it. I mean once you start down uh once you get one green tree python that's it. I mean you look at everything else and call the bridge you're out of there. Little brown snake. All the color you were left to make room for more chondros. Oh yeah that's it. I mean I still had like I got rid of those original jungles and then I ended up getting something that dug price produced. I didn't buy it straight from price. Angry little jungle and that thing when it changed it was just gorgeous such an awesome animal. Yeah about uh 2003 2003 some stuff went down. You and I got nether things too like uh I got some Simpsons pythons from the barkers through Kelly Hammock. I wanted to keep keep your locality a spotted python so I was looking for those. I got some of those. So I kept those but I in 2003 I sold all the jungles and unfortunately I sold that price female. Everything went it kept for the green tree pythons and the I keep your spotted. Smells it. Not bad things to focus on though the chondros and the yorks. I mean that's pretty good in my opinion. Yeah no that's definitely definitely good snakes. So can you give us a brief overview of your collection as it stands now? Like what do you have and some of your highlights? Yeah yeah sure. Yeah okay so the never ending story but yeah 2007 I you know I just I missed the jungles I was recituated um I was always looking for the best ones I could find but I really didn't know a whole lot about jungles so it's kind of weird a mouth because some guy at uh bait and switch me so me oh here's this killer VPI jungle and then the one that showed up wasn't the one in the picture so that guy was out the door um yeah yeah finally uh yeah the guy mentioned oh there's this like python peed jungles are nice and there's this guy reptilicus so I looked at leery's night and I liked the picture bugged him. I just bugged him he was like pretty much sold out and I finally sold me a group of 1.2 and there sucks correctly and uh oh wow yeah so I mean pretty much since 2007 I mean the condros have been here all along um which condros I have has changed I only have one of my originals she's 16 now um yeah just 2007 I had I had those leery jungles then I bought jungles from my everyone I mean I bought some hamper jungles I bought some my python peed different ones but I mean once they change they're all out the door just those those one leery jungles stayed so right now uh right now I have um a jungle from windows I picked up the pair from ham in 2011 then my leery animals and um just a green tree pythons I have capework spotted pythons uh the Stimson python group is changing and I have some emeralds oh emerald see yeah just a token pair of northerns both produced by rico nice very cool I do I'm backtracking a little bit but I do have a question about um sure the diamond costals that you uh that they had back in the day would they be considered what you know what you would say is like the uh integrate diamond costals that came from uh Australia or are they were they being sold as costals or as diamonds now they cross them themselves and they specifically called them diamond cross coastal oh I gotcha okay yeah they didn't cross through uh they didn't cross the jungles um he did though I remember I went there and I was getting a jumerals bow and then he's like you know my male jungle died I'm thinking about crossing the diamond with the mom and holding it back and bringing it to her and uh he's oh I don't know if I want to do that what do you think I'm oh yeah I do it and then I think I ended up with that son so that I remember he told me that so that's why they are off the door gotcha um all right so what we're going to go into next is we're going to talk about um just jungle lines and bloodlines and all that stuff and we've been talking about it for probably about a week now and uh you know I think that uh the listeners will definitely appreciate um some of the knowledge that you have about these lines so with all the talk about your jungles I put that in air quotes um let's talk about some of the history the different lines of the history of some of the jungle carpets and one that comes up is uh the probably people today don't know too much about um because you don't hear too much about it the larry black line yeah what do you got what do you got on that school okay yes all right well you know I'll try my best my knowledges and all together extensive because I had assumed all jungles how to diamond in them and they're wearing up here because I didn't know but I by mistake uh once I looked at my larry animals I was able to trace them and then I realized hey like maybe these might be pure jungles so larry black line basically larry black lives about 20 minutes away from me I don't know but uh back in 1984 when he had a shop yeah he acquired a gravid female and so the story is supposedly it showed up from the uh Steinhardt aquarium so that's what that's what he went with but it showed up and I guess back then I've heard that they're calling them rain forest pythons really female came in yeah rain rain forest pythons that's what someone told me I was in the air back then so I wouldn't know for sure got it yes so uh so this female had a clutch of eight never bred again so there's a gentleman named Regis Oferman and I he knew about them and he kept on bugging larry to buy some of these persistent and supposedly larry can be kind of difficult oh no he's a he's like an instructor at a gun range now or something probably a cool guy I don't know I've never met him but right oh yeah yeah these uh rain forest pythons Regis just bugged him bugged him bugged him finally I larry met Regis in Las Vegas and I sold him 2.2 from the clutch the sex ratio for the rest of them are out where they went no one knows so Regis worked with those animals and he did up until uh several years ago and then Regis is completely out now so he kept that line I mean basically pretty inbred they're all bred amongst themselves he's 2.2 siblings but that's the line all the way up into the present so if anyone has a pure larry black it would have came from Regis so okay Turner had some you know he sent him out to different people with a caveat that animals had to come back from him from the line and he provided shoe it with a group of larry blacks so gonna segue in the shoe it okay so shoe it acquired his uh his larry blacks and he acquired there's at least one german animal from Bartlett and that's another person I've heard that a dick Bartlett had back then like the rain forest pythons as early as anyone or before anyone and supposedly somewhere from Germany it's not real clear where they came from but that's what I've heard so you got a german female from Bartlett probably more and he also got 1.1 from a guy called Bill Montgomery so I asked you what he did and now you said he kept the 1.1 from Montgomery separate because they didn't look as good as the other group yet a group of 4.4 larry black and german animals so he crossed the german with the larry black and Lisa one female is very sick bands kind of greenish yellow and it looks remarkably similar to one of the lines that laisick was working with can't say it is the same you can't look at a carpet know what it is but it resembles it so that's what shoe it did and crossed with the larry black it made some really nice bold animals still very much the larry black look though so I mean if you get a shoe it animal it does it come from the mock summary animal it's the 1.1 or does it come from the larry black german group and I asked him you know what you do and he's like I like crossed them up that's it german and larry black so you're like shoe it german is pretty much poop I mean what's the likelihood that you know it's just story I mean maybe some had more german some had more larry black right yeah shoe it said all your members they're pretty darn small and for some odd reason like to eat mice and birds more than they did rats great exactly that explains it or not yeah that explains a lot there it is yeah god damn it all right so um there it is I mean I so the pure larry black it still exists there's only a there's only a few um shoe it I mean it is what you see whatever you find how does like um wasn't Andrew hair working a lot with the shoe it stuff not really no no here's here's group he had one animal 2003 well one animal that I know of I mean I'm I'm able to access old websites I can go in look at pictures see what they had if I get into turners like it's really not going to help me there's a bunch of pictures of animals but you don't know who's who I says what he's working with and that's about it um you get into hairs you can see what he had like what was the animals origin what clutch what year some pictures are in tax some or not so what he had was uh hello yellow was um supposedly shoe at German according hair but not really the case I don't think and now it's a 2003 turner animal I think knows cross laisics most likely most likely uh the laisic line that led to cover drill okay so that group of laisic animals so that was hello yellow and then you had kit Toronto which was um that was boas cross cover drill boas was a different laisic line and cover drill or you might have been half what cover drill was it's it's not real clear okay and then as far as what else hair had I mean you had the animal highlighter which was an unknown that came from uh Atlanta Georgia reptile show in 2004 yeah okay one guy uh one guy bought highlighter I don't know that was all MP pythons like you guys are on there whereas as I'm really uh ready for him once in a while I'd lurk on MP pythons but I would have missed a lot of things right I got so over there with the uh condro knuckleheads all of us but uh yeah I mean I guess somebody owned them first and he was posting them calling them highlighter and then Andrew bought them so I mean Andrew got that then Andrew got some unknowns Andrew did have an animal named Abigail which was Lloyd Lemke line kind of that striped kitty kind of look okay and then he had 1.2 pythons pee at least I think there is a big monster called Samson I think he was python pee uh the other one was soul glow so you get highlighter across soul glow that's the animal highlighter plus python pee and the third python pee animal ended up with nace and it's since city gecko I forgot her name I mean I'm trying to blank I'll remember maybe yeah yeah so that one so I mean basically it's like uh hairs animals are unknowns and then you have uh 100% lazy male kid Toronto and you have the uh shoe at cross-lazy he might have no okay so kid Toronto that was a hair animal right I actually know he bought him from Leary so that's a will yeah will Leary produced him kid Toronto I think was a 2004 100% lazy animal that hair around okay so what about some of the other like uh what about VPI or you hear Vann and Vetter or price stuff like that okay sure well Doug price animals are 100% lazy he bought his stock only from Casey up to about 94 possibly 95 we now have to talk to price to find out the exact years I he's never crossed him with anything else so they look to me to be a line that cover girl came from it doesn't look like there's the other line main line in there any of his other lines okay um so yeah I mean they're they're 100% lazy okay Vann the Venter I mean he won't say where his jungles came from so nice solid black and not really yellow yeah they seem to be clean right not really bright bright yellow but they sort of have a clean look to them right mm kind of all right yeah I mean I mean shoot it's a pure jungle I guess you want to right um I'm sure I'm sure they are I guess whatever they are they're not for me I mean not to bash on them but no you're looking for in a jungle right no I mean you look at that or you look at like a very black cross German from Schuet or you look at some oleusic animals no interest right yeah I mean you know some of the I'm sharing some of the pictures that you had sent me earlier of some of the animals that you're talking about over in our chat and uh and these are just beautiful jungles good Lord they are yeah absolutely I forgot how nice cover girl was whoo pretty man pretty nice yeah all right me and I mean she wasn't real like bright fluorescent yellow and kind of tipped out but overall like I mean she stayed clean she got some black speckling like they all do but I mean I was a clean animal it's a beautiful animal absolutely so what about um I think Nick told us before that like like everybody thinks that VPI is a bloodline but basically VPI yeah they kind of put all their animals together and you know bought from all these different people maybe a line but not a bloodline yeah yeah exactly sorry I forgot about VPI there but yeah I mean I mean really to find out what the barkers did I haven't talked to them I don't really know them I mean the best thing to do and if they felt like talking about it ask them um but yeah that's yeah that's what I've heard too it's it's not like any eye you know rainforest python box shows up that still cracks up rainforest almost they're all here yeah yeah yeah you know another old old line I mean I don't know if his or originals or where he got him a line I don't know anything about his sipper leaf so that's yeah San Diego reptile breeders so I mean if you google him like that business is long gone I mean there's pictures of his setup and uh it is he a snake keeping by Madison and there's uh you can google and you'll find a news article in 1989 San Diego County like seized as animals including five carpets because I guess he wasn't allowed to have any boas or pythons above three feet San Diego so like draconian draconian 80s crop got some neighbor was concerned yes snakes we're gonna come and get them so they seized his animals rats that's about as much as you'll find out that sucks pretty much yeah okay so all right we already talked about Andrew Hare uh we sort of we talked about cover girl um what about animals like so when we're talking about jungles people seem to name them and they get famous and everybody talks about it but like what about brinkley yeah brinkley's uh brinkley's a 2003 boas cross cover girl animal under percent physics okay yes um well uh actually uh like for leery's animals I know some of them are I don't know what the other is obviously the ones that are labeled Gordon Schuet that's a huge um his pictures I'll say Hanley so they're from Kevin Hanley whether they came direct from Hanley or they came through Turner I don't know yeah that's leery but leery's not exactly gonna pick up the phone and talk about carpets um yeah you gotta get a hold of yeah it's not gonna happen yeah um so I mean there's uh I know which three were the Lasics well which four actually it's cover girly bought direct from Casey cover girl is 1996 from Casey's one line uh right and then uh my friend here actually bought um three leery's Lasic animals well he bought uh he bought four Lasics from Casey in 1997 they're not the lines that cover girl is so boas was in that group the one male got dirty and he sold them the other two females were uh one was Ruth and the other was Naomi and Ruth and Naomi were pretty distinct Boas the classic banded black and yellow jungle carpet some yellow kidney he may have been a cross between two Casey lines so the one that cover girl is in a different one the black line um not sure I mean you can't tell by looking at him but when Boas was crossed with cover girl it could make really tipped out animals like kid Toronto or it could make an animal like Brinkley or there's a Brinkley's sister Hope the guy had Matt Brock bought her um and leery actually bought her back yeah yeah I mean Hope was smoking and uh leery bought her back and she had her so when I got uh jungles from him I got a shoe at Cross Hope and 2007 was the clutch I got from so that's my animal hecket yeah we're Hope is I don't know or she's still alive yeah I don't know where everything went wow I'm looking at uh you said hecket and I'm looking at jerry and hecket and I guess this is one of your offspring from 2014 I remember this actually you said good lord yeah wow nice you know I mean there's there's them and then their pure jungles I mean there's some really killer ones and there's some that end up a little bit dirty it's just the way it goes and you knock it out then with anything you could pre-highlight animals and uh you think oh highlighter is not mud well yeah it does and when it does it's bad um right yeah so I mean there's some killer ones I mean but the thing is is even the worst of them I mean they're all gonna be gold and black you know I don't have a problem with them as oh my jungle carpets aren't yellow all right right they're gonna be yellow yeah you got that you're there yeah it's the lottery you know getting that stellar animal wow what about um all right let me uh let me see we talked about um highlighter we did talk about highlighter right mm-hmm oh yeah there's highlighter's sister too but who's that highlighter there's two animals the male and female so the the female highlighter animal went to um a guy named kim Schroeder that used to keep green tree pythons but she disappeared I mean I don't think he ever did anything with her yeah I mean uh there's a whole discussion means someone sent me into the link on mp pythons where uh someone was asking about uh you know this highlighter diamond python in there or not I mean and Andrew came on and uh Jake Millbrand I mean a similar thing like anything could be an highlighter sure but you like the way it looks you like do we have animals looks okay call it a jungle and it's killer you know on his on his on his website there's uh I don't know I forgot which year but said it's believed that he's a 2003 Larry Black cross German um must have been some pretty much different Larry Black and or uh German animals than shoe it used but uh I mean looking at highlighter's sister I mean is there diamond python in there or not don't know there's not a lot of yeah the yellow I mean if there is maybe it's dilute I mean it doesn't matter either way you either like the way it looks or you don't or you don't now and then you don't buy it if you don't don't like it don't buy it Sir yeah I I mean I don't know I kind of I'm kind of with you that like so what's your thoughts I guess um when it comes to like undocumented jungles is that kind of how you feel it's like uh well I mean that's the thing there's yeah I'm sorry I cut you off go ahead no no go ahead okay yeah I mean not that's a thing like like are you in a look are you gonna be like one of those guys like oh my pure jungle carpets and it's like yeah that's like mud monster so yeah you got pure jungle carpets but it looks like pure crap you know some people are so some people are happy with that yeah you know I want my cake and I want to eat it too I want this stuff that looks insane and it's a lineage animal that's it I mean as far as I'm documented and I'm not going to assume that anything is a jungle and the only I do have undocumented if it's a highlighter animal I want it if it's not I have no use for it that's just my thing I mean now that there's all this jack sib I mean that's been the carpet thing all along let's cross it let's make much you know if people like that great I mean that's your thing but do they need to be all these jungle impostors jag sibs everywhere I mean the older stuff that's undocumented it's probably maybe it's like some Larry Black in there some LASIK this and that who knows what's in it but I mean less of a likelihood I would think that this is jag sib I'm not going to assume it's a pure jungle I'm not going to call anything a pure jungle right I mean I guess I guess I'm guilty of calling like my one pair that's traceable in a couple other animals I have pure jungles but was I there in the 80s do I know where those boxes of rainforest pythons came from no but I mean it's rainforest pythons and it's yellow and black it's probably a jungle makes a lot of sense to do that yeah yeah so undocumented I mean shoot it just depends I mean there's a lot of people working with some really beautiful animals and they make stellar animals no do it do I want that to cross I say I don't care but I mean is that a animal gonna make something better with some of the highlighter stuff I have maybe it will and it's worthwhile it just depends right if I'm given a choice if I can acquire one of the old lines in pure form am I going to want that over anything else absolutely am I going to keep it pure yes I think probably where carpet guys went wrong in the early days is that they didn't document stuff like lineage like um as well as like the condro folks did you know yeah I think at least for me personally my my approach has been yeah I do like the morphs and I do do the you know the crossing and stuff like that because they make some kind of insane animals but I like to do lineage all my stuff you know that way at least I'm doing my part to try to try to keep those you know whatever you want to say sibs I try to put so much stuff into it that there is no sibs and sometimes I know people don't like to hear it but sometimes they either go for people for pets or they go for blackhead food you know what I mean to kind of keep that out of the out of the pool I guess you would say you know yeah all right so when it comes to jungles what do you personally work with I mean basically a silator and that's what you're going for yeah I mean uh yeah the one animal I got from rindles now is uh the animal nightshade voltage was none known um possibly pure jungle I mean there's uh uh voltage was from executive reptiles and traced back to a guy in Texas in the 90s so okay but there's really no way to know exactly what he was possibly pure jungle uh possibly not looked like it kind of uh and then nightshades uh highlighter cross solo so I mean the animals from that clutch are pretty much all unbelievable so I have that animal um I have a female from uh Nathan at Sim uh Sin City so he bought some uh highlighter princess from Andrew so you got an animal on a super bad highlighter princess now it's crossed that unknown that may have called Santelian pretty nice jungle yeah so there's that female and then uh it's a female on loan and f2 highlighter solglow to that and that's about the extent of the uh highlighter group um and then uh that's super bad animal that's super bad animal that you have oh my goodness I'm going to post that picture over in the chat here but man that yellow and black is oh my god it's insane yeah those yeah Nathan Jamison's animal oh unfortunately yeah he's the he's deceased so those animals do not know uh they're on okay yeah all right let me know I have that and then uh what else do I have let me think yeah I have that and then I have a 75% larry black female uh produced by Regis and then in the end the last few years he's doing crosses I mean how long can be bred breed the same uh siblings together but all right so yeah it's uh 75% larry black and then 25% a little bit of hamper in there she went and laid it uh you know I have my hold backs I have Hackett and Jerry I have a Turner female um had Regis house Turner what she was what was in her so she's mostly uh lazy and stifferly with perhaps a little shoe it maybe something else thrown in Turner was line breeding right selectively breeding you remember the different lines uh that in uh I have a German jungle no no I okay I have no idea what's not but you know it it's a nice one right yeah yeah right yeah it's uh half all these uh German bloodline and then I Terrace zebras and Tolle and Palmer still supposedly right um hmm yeah that's that's pretty much it I mean I have some clutches I'm waiting for one from the Turner cross Jerry uh Jerry's uh the larry black uh it's larry black and shoe it mostly so he's mostly larry black with a touch of German and some I covered her own there so him crossed the Turner and then uh two highlighter parents the same animal that voltage nightshade crossed uh the one from Nate right and then I crossed after two highlighters sold well okay you had a couple other clutches that are all on the ground right now those are all on the ground oh okay eggs eggs are cooking cooking nice very good awesome yeah now the uh Condros did Condros did their thing they shafted me like usual I got slugs uh oh man oh that's awesome yeah so I mean I think we talked about this and you know before the show and um I mean basically you're holding on to these jungles to pick out the trophies uh you're growing them up when they hatch out and then you're selling off the rest is that how you uh how you working to pick your prize animals no oh wow well now for the uh for the ones I got from uh from Will uh yeah well I mean once once the clutch hit the ground and Micah wasn't just worried about green tree pythons and other things and like oh these are some nice jungles and they're traceable uh yeah I mean I held back seven um I sold some before that I mean it as they changed I decided you know this one you kept it's gonna go um until I was down to four but I let one go to a friend like to be pretty nice on now how it is I guess it started getting a little bit dirty later suppose they have no idea but anyway that one was nice but I let it go um and I ended up with a four and I sold the last pair I mean the pair I kept and there's the other pair I probably should have kept it but I let I let them go right I let your animals I mean I'll pick out a couple that look nice for powder and to see how they change but so far they're pretty much I mean I've only had a couple clutches so those are off the door right so are you are you do you have a selective are you breeding for color or cleanliness or both or both whatever pops out and you're going to go with it from there yeah whatever looks good and also bloodline so something's a linear animal and it's good it's staying here I got it it doesn't yeah I mean it could be tipped it could be solid bands just bright yellow and black and clean and large and it stays so when when you're talking about for listeners that may be new to carpets or jungles or whatever um when you're talking about you know clean or you know dirting up or you know what do you what are you talking about and do you have any tips about somebody that could be hatching out jungles of what they would look for can you see that early on you do you notice that from the from the get go when they're gray and black now it's a total crop shoot there's no way to know um yep I mean some people say if you hold the phone up and take a picture like this or like you can kind of see it no not me I mean maybe someone else can I can't yeah um I mean really I mean like anyone ever says like to tell you his article how to pick a trophy look at the parents and then yeah and saying you know sometimes crappy looking jungles can make trophies and sometimes beautiful jungles can make crap um and that's true more often than not the good looking parents are going to make trophies but uh not always the case I mean it seems like some of the old lines when they're locked in and you're not crossing that line the chances are that you're going to get some pretty nice animals um once you start crossing them I mean I could be wrong and full of it but uh it seems like me who knows like polygenic polygenic inheritance right exactly like what what genes are contributing to that so I mean avoid like dorsal melanin coming in I don't mind that it's like solid black I mean it's solid black covering the animal yeah that might be your problem but when you get that like brown golding and the scales with some black I mean you can just see that it's just going to be a pretty dirty animal it's just the yellow is not going to be as bright right looking out the a slightly dirty appearance to it but I mean sometimes I'm wrong and I moved animals out and never was bad it was just like completely tolerable right yeah I mean I guess it's good that like somebody gets an animal and it turns out to be a trophy and then they in a way I guess they sort of you know become an advertisement for you if they post up pictures of it and such um exactly you know but they're always are those ones that you say damn I only would have known you know yeah yeah so and yeah I mean that's that's just the thing like uh I mean I've been keeping stuff forever I mean most of my time was spent playing with green sheep python parasites because that's what I found interesting there's always having to move around so I didn't really care to breed anything I mean I drag drag Noah's ark like one of each sex of everything but I didn't care to be until a few years ago so I don't have uh I don't have a whole lot of of that out there like who I wish I wouldn't have sold that because right the one when he'd clutch I had I held him most of them back right not that my sill is remorse no yes I didn't tell yeah smart man avoid all that yeah right there that's what I do I don't sell yeah you have to be able to get an animal well I like to uh you know just see how they I'm trying to learn you know how they how they progress you know I'm trying to see if I if I notice anything and see if that turns into anything and you know so far you know not so much you know but like with my melanistic ij I had to hold them all back because I don't know what's gonna happen with them so you know yeah but so okay cool all right and let's go into keeping jungles like uh what uh what cages do you use from uh for babies all the way up to adults okay um well I mean hatchlings I'm gonna start them out in six-court tubs uh six-court iris tubs you know I'm not too picky on kg whatever's the Dutch price I mean unfortunately I don't have like a perfectly matched setup because things come up used local and I have acquired some really nice cages at a good price but anyway babies six-court and then uh does it start to be about seven eight months old up to 20-court halls with a plastic hanger purchase back-feeded racks and then up to 44-court is there probably like a year and a half and then by two years old like my jungles are usually needing uh me you can put them in a CB 70 but they don't really get to do their uh semi-arboreal thing and then pretty much by two I mean they can go into a 36 24 by 24 cage no problem with purchase so if they're if they're all animal they can stay in that you know but I really uh up to adults like a minimum size for me personally is 48 wide 24 deep ideally 24 high would purchase for them to move around um you know uh minimum 18 but I want to stack four cages 18 inches high you can definitely keep them in less high it's just personal preference on that but for me a 48 24 by 24 cage is not a large cage it is when it's in your living room but for the animal the jungle filled out up usually people grow their animals different ways like uh it's why it's always dangerous like you're looking for that adult animal that's ready to breed and you know you don't you don't want to risk babies uh you know you don't want to risk it you're in a rush you get the animal people do things differently you know have some animals I've gotten as adults quite a few recently and it shows up and you have these midget farmers you know they don't feed their stuff and like uh animal shows up it's four years old in four years four years is like the minimum for me to for me to breed a python I don't do it any sooner a lot of people do right really good breeders you know I'm not in a rush to breed them obviously because I waited a long time to breed anything um yeah I mean you get a four-year-old animal like what someone said okay 1500 grams for a jungle female I have no idea what anything weighs I don't weigh it I just look at it I mean if I have to like I have to somebody sick they need injections oh wam and I know the way or someone's like hey I want to buy that how much there's a way okay final way someone wants me to weigh a baby antirasia probably gonna delete the mouth um yeah I mean uh it's just depends you get these midget farmers they send you this shrunken animal it's always going to be small I mean some people deliberately want them that way no less eggs I mean on the other hand I've been sent an animal that was like a hippopotamus like some uh animals end up all python keepers you know let's let's breed this fast let's weigh it all the time let's cram rats in it once a week right you're gonna mess up the animal so it's almost 6,000 gram eight foot jungle holy shit like yeah it's insane yeah it's like yeah god like why I mean yeah it's yeah it might have problems it might not right um yeah it's one or the other the feast feast or famine you know if you get babies you know you get babies you have control how they're taken care of you know you have control you have your animals exactly the way you want them you know the history of the animal so I mean it's patience it sucks if you're in a rush to breed or you want to get something killer you don't want to you'll want to get three babies from one clutch and like see who's like the best one right yeah you know I mean maybe I grow my jungle is larger than other people but it depends on the animal I check in yeah maybe a little bit too big but not really I mean I mean I mean you're not looking at the pictures and they don't look I mean they're not they don't look huge but they don't look nice or anything you know yeah no but other people still might go for the smaller jungle I mean my coastals compared to eric's coastals you know they're both coastals both healthy might have they're just larger than his yeah I slow I slow grow my stuff you know this I'm like you four years is kind of like where I'm at to breed and I ain't ain't no rush um and I don't I don't know through the pilot so yeah I like the I like the midget farmer thing so I'm probably going to use that against eric forever now so I'm glad that was brought into my life for this episode the one takeaway I will have thanks a lot I'm good now yeah yeah so he just means he just means that I'm that I'm a midget not because because I love you for that yeah but quick question I know you said that you give the jungles like perching throughout their entire lives do you notice them perch more when they're babies as opposed to adults or is there that one that perches all the time it'll do it all the virgin time yeah well um if I get an animal from someone else and it's been crammed in the tub it's a bottom dweller okay even one of those I have there was a bottom dweller she takes to the perches now just depends on the the muscle condition of the animal there's another animal that's actually in really good condition yeah fq highlighter solo is a smaller female because I choose not fed a whole lot but she's a fine size good shape that animal will not get on the perches at all but all all of mine that I raise oh yeah I mean they're they wrap around the stick and look just like the gondros black black and yellow condros well my problem is is uh you know when they start getting larger like heck it's maybe six and a half feet 3400 grams she's a larger jungle but not too big um now the uh the fiberglass perches and the habitat systems cages rotate so one guy yeah there's diamonds in there perch rotated diamond cell broke connect that so um they're always taking spills I mean it's an easy fix you go in I don't know the fiberglass perches will shatter but other perches like now pretty easy just uh take a drum off a little hole in the eye open a semicircle end of the perch holders that I use slop and stainless still screwing there the perches not going to rotate so how could took a spill hit her spine she's messed up whether I ever get a clutch again I don't know I mean I yeah I've been working with a vet it got pretty bad and I just worried there might be something else going on you know those are sort of like rare virus like what what is this and I blood work was good there's a lab where you can test for uh every known virus there is in squamades um yeah yeah blood work was good uh symptoms were not indicative of anything so I mean if it is something it's unknown no one else no one else is affected so I have to say if you fell and she is getting better but whether I'm ever able to breed her again or not I don't know sucks so perches yes they're awesome the jungles go on them better make sure they don't rotate I already knew that and I had the perches wedged but with their weight and strength wedging the perches was not good enough might as well just hook them up right yep damn yeah okay uh what about four temps for your jungles from babies on up I try and hit like a 86 87 hot spot going to okay 80 cool in around there I mean I'm I'm sure they're fine over a range like 84 to 88 on the warm end yeah I mean to go off topic uh answer is your pythons need a 90 95 hot spot or they're not going to eat waste away yeah so I mean they're just harder to get started whereas like a green tree python or jungle as long as there's like a a mild 80s ambient not necessarily a hot spot they're gonna get started I mean mine have hot spots but I mean uh mutton shared that with me actually like when I had the first clutch of stems and pythons on the ground and they can be a nightmare to get started um oh yeah you you gotta have that hot spot or they're just gonna waste away hmm good to know I did not know that I mean not well so we're breeding guys breeding temps yeah yeah yeah I don't know for uh the the gradual might drop um over a period three weeks to a month degree or two here or there uh down to a low of about 75 76 I mean I've bred them at 77 that's it um might be higher than some people go to you but I don't need to drop the 68 or 70 because they're gonna breed just fine and I don't need any respiratory infections yeah no one wants it no so now you said that the answer is you need to be in a hot spot of like 95 like yeah how do you read those guys like you do okay just for the babies the adults don't need that hot of a hot spot right yeah with that I mean I've had them or I've had individual cages and had ultra-therm on the bottom and then I plugged the ultra-therm into a a plug-in dimmer plug-in dimmer can't control the wattage that well um and I just turn it all the way on low and if it's sandwich it's gonna firmly block it's pretty damn hot one low that's fine I mean maybe it's 95 I could gun it but it's not a dangerous temperature to burn the animal they can go on there and land it if they want to or they cannot I mean or now they're in a rack CB 70 rack and they're the helix running it so yeah it's set uh cool I think it's set it to 95 direct direct temperature with the probe sitting on the uh tape okay yeah so they can choose I mean they're like yeah I keep them like a collarbread they're pretty easy you know that dropped them down too far to get them to breed even with their immense hot spot uh well yeah I do I do do a drop I mean when I had them on ultra-therm I just gradually uh started cutting the power on the ultra-therm for an hour then I increased it for like eight to ten hours and uh my house doesn't drop below 70-72 so that was their night drop I mean they can go down like the Stimson's bison's are uh to the west of the uh great dividing range in Australia so they can be a more like outback uh kind of conditions to not so dry and huge range yeah they can drop to 70 no problem no ill effects so far um very cool yeah yeah so for what what's your approach for feeding your guys like what are you feeding how often okay well my babies ideally I get them started on at pinky rats for the jungles okay um breeders have been doing this a long time work with many carpets two different people I mean Nick would be one there's a different guy spoke to kind of uh an old behind the scenes guy uh as a lot of stuff you know it's none there's a higher incident of prolapse of your feeding pinky rats uh for whatever reason um not a lot of calcium no hair uh yeah so the animals will have loose stools um so you run the risk of prolapse but I mean I start them on the rats because once once they're on mice I mean some of them will never switch over have you had that problem yeah yeah yeah yeah I've never yeah never had and it sucks yeah I have not sucks yeah no I mean uh Jerry's uh what almost six foot long 2400 gram mouse or male that's it the only animal I have that I've never been able to switch over if you you can trick them you can scent it you can get them to hit that thing like he means business as soon as you start to taste rat projectile vomiting we're not gonna do it see wow yeah oh yep you like cute things my mice and hairy arms oh ow what what a jerk yep I'm sure you need to check though right feed them some chickens probably because I've had success with that stuff and yeah uh you know and I never thought I'd have a worse feeder than a baby jungle and then I got into Darwin's and I want to pull my hair out with my albino male like it has to be a mouse and it has to be a certain size mouse has to be scolding hot I have to leave in there and I have to run away or I won't eat it oh well what a nightmare yeah yeah Darwin's a tricky so Darwin's are horrible they would jump a lot so shit that's that's what I liked about green tree python really anything anything you got anything that's like the rumors of green tree python's being picky fragile little things is I don't know where the hell that came from because mine I have to like I have to refuse to feed them because they'll be out against the glasses I'm feeding everybody else going like oh my god and I'm like no you haven't pooped yet like you don't get fed it's they will easily explode yep so well speaking of yeah go ahead no go ahead oh no go ahead I was going to say speaking of chondros we're going to shift gears and talk a little about about chondros am I talking to you earlier you're a locality guy correct pretty much I mean as much as it's possible right so what's your thoughts how do you break down localities what do you what's your approach well I mean pretty much you're you're stuck with what the uh what they're being represented as um if it's accurate I mean create math so I guess I guess what I'm saying yes do you believe it's accurate it depends yeah it really depends like once once you've been uh I mean when you're focuses localities you get used to looking at them it depends on what it is um okay uh yeah there's I mean the biok biok types like uh I mean to know for certain can I look at like a biok island versus a namplor versus a superiority versus a podiato and know who's who not let's hold I mean like I've seen pictures of all those types right yeah kind of biokish animals and like I mean they do look slightly distinct but I mean maybe there's regional variation within each each of those little islands um unless I went there myself and looked at all of them like I'm not even sure that I'd be able to know but I mean if you're thinking of like biok types you know podiato those are gorgeous animals they seem to be more yellow I mean there does there does seem to be some distinct looking bioks um are they bioks or something else I mean whereas like superior and non-formated like more of a dark green like uh some blue on the lips maybe and some um white flowers on them I mean am I gonna look at that if I'm not told what it is and say oh yeah that's one of those no way I mean I can say Ryan looks like that but you don't right right um I mean our ruse are like pretty easy there's also fake ruse seems like there used to be more fake ruse I guess uh we'll talk to you and what the fakearoo yeah someone looks it's green white spots that's in a ruse no it has a nice black pointed tail definitely not in a rue um head structure is wrong yeah it's not a rue or someone crosses in a rue something and they look like a ruse and call it in a rue that's kind of like a car yeah it's kind of like a carpet claiming a bloodline when it's like 12% that and the rest are known like that's right that's not a line yeah yeah um I mean the the rue islands in our archipelago uh they have different names I mean could pull up the map and look at it and get really into it uh I mean they're part of the southern clade of green tree pythons you have green tree pythons split in as of Rawlings et al believe it's 2003 a molecular phylogenetics revolution right maybe that year that publication's 2004 so they divide them into a northern and southern clade so and propose a name uh Moralia Zuria that already existed in the literature so the taxonomy name classification the name would have to exist you would have to be available so do that name and then Rawlings for the southern clade so you have these dividing range of mountains and Papua New Guinea I mean it's not exactly oriented north-south be more uh northwest early to uh south-easterly but for the sake of discussion call it north-south divide so you have the iron range Australian green tree pythons would be in southern clade of Moralia Britis or Veritas or if you want to say it and uh what you would call a moroke but uh the moroc is actually a southern form and most of the range of of animals that look like that just looking at like switak um from pictures you can see that they extend all the way into the western highlands which are far south east right up on the mountain range and on doogel is like the locale that he had so it would be safe to extrapolate moving from Tana moron morocchi region all the way over there and then they probably extend all through the south and it looks like they can look slightly different for different regions um somehow be more like blue triangles with a white stripe and actually it looks like the non-dugal animals tails slightly pointed in pictures okay uh yeah i mean then going back over to aru sorry well archipelago uh aru's are actually different looking they're not all the same there is uh a guy is dead now uh shane snider i think it was 2011 i'm really ready for him so he's like why why uh high white doesn't breed true in 99 percent of the time and he showed pictures of all the different areas he don't like head structures he had the eyes set differently different head structure pretty i mean pretty like uh distinctive looking one could argue this is just you know specific variation within a population but considering all those different islands uh like which do you want to believe you know um he's like you know this is this is like this is probably part of the cause of why it doesn't line up now yeah they're definitely different the the thread is still on there and fortunately i mean he died in a motorcycle accident not long thereafter so all his photos are on wherever they're linked to they see all the different aru's those whole thing and then uh of course towards the end you have uh ryan young post one of the best animals he's ever produced from his aru's and the thing was pretty darn high white it's easily the most high whiter realized i've ever seen a captivity and he did that he crossed he crossed parents that decent white for being captured brother is and it unlocked what had been in the uh grandparents which were extremely high white aru's mid phone yeah so when you have you have all those locales they kind of went around i'll come back to the lack of a wild you know type and captive captive green tree pythons with some ideas i have so if you go back to the northern clade i mean how to break it down like uh not the bash on maxwell because maxwell did a lot i mean when i was starting out his website was i mean indispensable it's a shame it's not up anymore flying green tree pythons you go there yes cage designs uh you know how to do a top husbandry and like i mean that was like the bible craig's website to look at that and there's another website it was pretty much run by maxwell more or less called kondrel web that one's gone if i mean you could go on there and then some veteran keepers would be on there um yeah i mean maxwell was you always say i'm not against localities per se it's just if it's they're misrepresented by the the flippers in florida or like this mat or they try to name a locale of the marketing gimmick um he'd say that i'm not against him per se but if you have gps coordinates in the photograph you sitting there holding the snake in this locality um yeah so he'd say that and like i believe um but i don't but i have some really expensive much uh or uh or there's some guy dr greedo west off with a biological species concept argument they interbreed where the harp hybrid zones i mean that evolutionary biology uh the view towards hybridization was always pessimistic from 1940s work and the uh botanist that preceded them that say hey you know hybridization's rampant in plants it might be the same case animals are dismissed well i mean in the last 10-15 years it's come to be realized like uh interspecific genetic exchanges rampant uh how important of force it is for evolution is debatable that's unknown but in almost every clade of vertebrates it's in the most nascent species but it can occur depending upon the taxa between taxa or not necessarily sister species so meaning the most closely related right so anyway the argument against okay they interbreed they're not different species is just a pile horse manure um and it depends upon what species concept one adopts and there's like as many species concepts as one cares to count right and it depends on what what kind of biologist you are which one you're going to apply but um anyway so that was on there and uh i mean in the argument was against localities and different species when at the same time that was like post-rollings at all it already said there's a divide these are two different quakes the northern and the southern right um so i mean uh certain animals do you look a certain way so if you go to like the vocal cop and there's the rajan island so i don't know that's the right pronunciation but i've only read it never heard it spoken right so there's some islands off to the north there uh it's like bantanta off of the city if's wrong um if you have the vocal cop region birds head peninsula i mean there's some maps that'll actually break i mean they're not really states per se it's like a region so some of these localities here like the burei it's actually a region so that i can call that because it's from there something's called a moroc still there's no morockeys in the city morockeys well no shit but uh that whole region's morockeys when you go to the north yeah there's kind of moron yeah there's morockeys and rockeys the center center the mountains there in the west poplar or arian jaya whatever you want to call it uh Indonesian colonialism so you go to the middle there in between jaya porra region and morockey and it's jaya and that's where the airport city you have an airport in womena so animals are called womena coming out of there it could be from anywhere in those mountains right uh you go to jaya porra it's a pretty large region you have the city of jaya porra itself but lara's in that region ganyam's in that region you have uh the cyclops mountains so i mean you'd say a cyclops is a jaya porra but not necessarily the converse so a jaya porra is not necessarily cyclops they all kind of look the same very less it's a solid blue stripe and from what i've noticed they all have green tails there's no black and the same could be said of the central mountain the jaywee jaya quote unquote womena um green tails it could be wrong someone shows me a black tail in there but what i've seen represented is animals tailing from that region green tail you move over from jaya porra there's yapen ora pen region so the island of yapen and wara pen there's animals with white tails and wara pen if they come from wara pen they've been represented as that um so yeah there's a place called fakfak is pronounced fakfak so yeah animals from there uh yeah i mean so if you go back over back to the bird's head you have manticwari is half of it the other half is uh it's wrong is it so wrong it's wrong it might be a bantanta mislabeled is strong um you go over to manticwari can i tell the difference between a strong and a macquarie looking at them not at all with blue snakes long sin tail that looks like it was dipped in black ink or it can be speckle with black or is that animal from the berry i don't know or you go back over to manticwari there's the arse fact uh mountains nature reserve you know so you could have the arse fact locality did it come from the reserve that's why there's still few i mean you're going in getting these off nature reserve um yeah that's probably that a good idea right yeah there's uh you know are they allowed to do that uh well here's a deal there is no exports of wild collected green tree pythons allowed but the Indonesians you know and they're basically i mean what they're doing there is i mean you can get websites for the uh pop limbs are being taken by the Indonesian military out to see and throw an overboard to die uh killing them uh any any shore resistance against uh indonesian colonial rule and breaking down of the indigenous poplands is just met with slaughter um or they have them working in this are gold mines over there if you have like multinational corporations have a stake so it's keeping the Indonesians in there cutting down the rainforest i mean they they don't care so it's against an indonesian law so what they do is they have fraud it's called a farm if you have this right i mean there's uh new dean best day of theological services was approached years ago by some some good wanting to take pictures of this setup so he could show it to the government hey look at my farm he says it told him to f off right so i mean so i mean you have uh you have a farm there's a couple of farms that breed things um the farms can actually one can buy from the other if they're out of stocks uh then then condros show up regularly that are not uh produced from animals they're bred at the facility in hats and they basically uh end up going through there so anytime you see a larger animal i mean in rare certain cancers this is a whole back from the farm very rare that is the case most of the time the whole back from the farm and now every like three years now every dipshit excuse my language on king snake that's uh flipping stuff oh it's farms like why are you calling it farms just call it this is smuggled illegally this is wild caught it's an import don't give it a label i mean even uh one importer that owns a pretty nice farm um there's such labeled CH captive hatched or it's not labeled at all which means it's wild cause right so somehow i mean deox or deox coming constantly it sucks they're sold at petco half off someone gets it they're on facebook like oh i got this like horrible setup i don't know anything and i am bothered to read before i went out and bought this and i have this b-alk baby that's loaded with worms and maybe carrying something else you know and like it's not doing good or like you know it's just uh no it's just real bad yeah and it starts with people would not starts with people like changing the label of what you know what is when it gets here and it's like it's uh if it's not broke don't fix it mentality isn't gonna cut it like they they come in and uh someone could say well it's natural in the wild they have this big parasite burden and they all have they're all filthy loaded say well you know it's natural it's natural like i have a tight eye on listening to the grateful dead and it's cool and we don't need to treat this okay what about snake mites no make mites natural why are you gonna treat for them right okay they're gonna explode and they're gonna go you're in them horrible yeah yeah same for your collection whatever everything else yeah yeah i mean you can't see what's going on in the animals some parasites have a direct life cycle and they're going to multiply some requiring intermediate hosts but they can still be deleterious i mean around where it's a common one can cause intestinal blockages you got to get rid of that stuff it's not okay to just leave it and sit there i mean it's it's okay but you know like oh my conjure dropped dead off the perch well why do you think that was i mean you can also rush too like an animal's non-conditioning you're gonna blast it with all these meds could be bad i mean animal it's got to be in decent enough condition and you'd be warmer mites and you have to do it correctly the correct doses as per the literature and if you don't know what you're doing you better go to a pet right yeah i mean people people do all kinds of crazy stuff like get horse paste like it's inaccurate i mean yeah you can use it but you can also get the correct uh some vendors all suspension and administer it as per the literature but right you kind of need to know what's there you don't have to you can shotgun but you might miss something you don't know what you're doing maybe you'd dose inappropriate leach you mean femme bed is all safe to be warm on but other things can be uh potentially lethal or caused problems later on like fragile can cause tumors or it's overdosed it can also be bad right so it kind of goes on around here no no where is that go for it we absolutely love rants yeah but the other thing is that i mean they've been shipped over here in what kind of condition whether they were farm rate or wild caught by the time they get here and then you're going to dose them with some powerful dewormers if you don't do it right i mean you can do a lot of damage to those little guys that they're more even stressed to the max well here's here's the thing it's like uh i mean how how they come in just depends on what what what they are i mean uh yeah there's there's been terrible attrition and uh people that work with condros like some of the some of the little guys are like really on really birdies for them all the time they don't even have them anymore they're like out or people show up and they fill up their house with condros and then they're gone um right in the old time veterans i mean you know that there's some like quiet guys kind of underground they've been keeping them forever and really not too active on the internet they have like um marshal mendes works primarily with uh designer green tree python that's always been his focus i mean he is around before me and has been breeding a long time but if you see me he's been around a long time breeding snakes there's Jason Jason Stevens has been breeding snakes uh Gary shivino has always been involved not breeding uh breeding for a while now um yeah people are gone it used to be there but as far as the babies coming in um i mean if it's a pretty solid legitimately farmed baby then what it has is going to depend did that baby start a mice or was that baby started on lizards because it's a healthy hour in a rue and it doesn't want to eat maybe or maybe it's a rue that do it each and every single baby no matter what it is has to have a sequel round probably you might be good but you need to check it might be a minor parasite load or there's some things that can be transferred that cannot be treated um yeah so i mean it can be uh they can show up and if they're solid they can be treated right away i waste no time um can i clear it out and you want to have them in a different yeah go ahead i was going to say so you don't do we've had uh guests on the show before that basically are not trying to stress the animal out when they're getting something in um i guess this is more towards scrubs but i guess it applies the same way that they sort of let the animals settle in and then once they're settled in then treat you know more internal parasite do you go straight from the gate right well i mean after it's been here like as soon as i get a meal down it and i assess the condition of the animal you know does it does it look dehydrated like you have some weird virus that's going to drop dead uh yeah i mean maybe i'll cheat but it's going to be dead anyway no matter what they get out something um i mean maybe it pulls out of it but uh do it i don't know some people say like oh they're easy they're just like a carpet python that's thick just meets their needs uh-huh once you start messing with green tree pythons is when you need to have a good reptile pet um some people will argue that you know like a island stock at the vet it's not my husbandry sometimes it is it's just things happen they are they are slightly delicate uh captive bread ones in this country can be pretty resilient but i mean one day you come in things are off maybe uh maybe it just didn't get enough exercise in the cages like maybe you like the cages or small who knows humidity is off and it crops its guts out and that's uh if it's a minor prolapse and you're used to dealing with it depending on the animal you can get it back in no harm no foul they keep on coming out you need a stitch to hold it in or they could crop their guts out sideways and it's a veterinary emergency and you need to have a vet yeah there's no no margin for error uh yeah so i mean treating them like i mean i don't keep scrubs but i've heard that they're nervous and like uh one person i know like they had the scrub for quite a while they treated it uh i think for tapeworms out remember but they dusted i think didn't eat for a long time me and not yeah but that's more of a sub-adulged adult animal it's just the disposition of that species kind of how they are and they're yanked straight out of the bush they're not dumb they're not happy in a cage but they're here right um though yeah i mean yeah the the green tree pythons i mean the way they are what they're eating i mean they're pigs they want to be fed every day like once it calms animals not in bad shape apparent visually um and it eats time to treat as soon as it proves and you can as soon as it poops you can run a sequel and you know what's there you're not going to necessarily catch everything that's there but yeah there's there's no need to wait if the animal's solid right and if you wait the animal's not solid it might not ever be solid right maybe it can't be so would you consider everything that's coming if you're getting anything that's a uh farmed red basically would you look at that as wild caught not necessarily i mean i'm going to run a sequel i'm going to run a sequel i'm going to have that i mean i don't have a full-on quarantine which sucks but they're going to be hanging out in my bedroom with me um couple animals across the bedroom not ideal ideally they would be in their unroom um yeah i mean i'm i'm going to have it separate and i i'm going to make sure i see absolutely no parasites whatsoever i mean once i mean i having a little bit of a biology background and some books that have been on my bookshelf since before i ever started messing with them and new books like i can use a microscope pretty proficiently um it's not that hard to learn but if you had a symbology it makes it easier um yeah so i have that i run sequels sometimes there's things i don't know what they are and they're not in the books and then i show them that people don't know what they are either and i have to like have uh the last one i had to have uh of that text had the uh guys at the san diego zoo look at it just say well it looks kind of like this and then uh some vet student was uh on facebook and talking about his pathology course and he ran his own first fecal i'm like hey here's a picture of this can you have your instructor say what she thinks it is yeah yeah i mean that can happen but yeah as soon as i started messing around green tree pythons that was it if i was going to have anything that wasn't direct from a breeder in the united states uh i can now have to run sequels and see what's there right you do not have a vet do it if you have a couple but if you start to have more and you need to run the sequels again and again it's just more cost-effective to do it yourself if if you can do it here's a thought what about if the person that you're buying the snake from even though it's captive born and bred is bringing in um you know farm red animals yeah quote unquote into their collection do you run the risk there i mean anytime you bring an animal in yeah you could bring a jungle carpet in jungle carpet and some numb nuts uh has their dinker ball python project and they brought in some weird crap from african things are dropping like flies uh and it's like a virus it doesn't even know and yeah you could get something from anywhere anytime or some lethal bacteria or who knows you know it's the risk is always there so yeah you could uh other people keeping things always dangerous yeah yeah if it's if it's not mites like mites are the least of worries but mites are a major worry if they trojan horse you and you don't know they're there and you have carpets you have mites on one green tree python you know they're there you brought it in with mites knowing it you're going to get rid of them not a problem you don't know they're there it's a big problem sure because then there's going to be a lot of work yeah i'm curious uh yeah i'm preventomite or what what are you using oh use yeah uh well you know uh preventomite i'm hesitant to use that um i just had to use it because someone did trojan horse me oh someone had local too yeah man local local guy manry up yeah but it was it was contained i knew where i'm like once i realized it it was contained in the snakes during different rooms um i knew which animals had it which animals had spread to you so boom right there go to town i had to use preventomite uh on the walls on the carpet like as soon as that happens like i mean you can even get uh anything that contains car uh corporal peroxide like it used to be seven dust was the treatment for mites one of them back in the day yeah i mean that's going on the carpet that's being vacuumed up uh preventomite inside outside the cages stuff's got a dry solid i won't use it in a green tree python cage because there has to be humidity i don't think it's a good combination um yeah i i'm gonna do that i'm gonna do that i mean i always treat like an entire area like yeah i mean for me it's like there's a virus and i'm gonna move out in a radius and get everything anywhere and uh yeah i mean the actual animals themselves there's uh that deeply natural chemistry uh before that it was reptile rents from yes you and there's even one before that it's all the same ingredients like sodium dokasade or something like that it's the fault of a weak acid and it kills the mites it's not a pesticide so there's no resistance to it um yeah i mean if it's if it's like one animal you know it's there you're not going to spray that stuff on them and like that's it done deal there's like a regimen no yeah there's a there's a regimen uh you spray them day one let it sit for 20 minutes on them put them in a tub spray the cage out treat the outside of the cage with more toxic things and whatever the cage is sitting on and hit the carpet uh rinse them off after 20-30 minutes anything that's in the cage you know i have wood but if i did that's in the trash that's gone yeah everything in the cage yeah gone it's not hard um bleeds the water bowl and then uh day three day four repeat four more days repeat again repeat on day 14 repeat on day 21 so you just follow the life cycle any possibility of my day of catching you get them each time and it's gone they don't ever come back right gotcha smart okay i was just curious because some people like you said are funny about using preventomite with condoms um yeah yeah i would i wouldn't use it in a condro cage i mean i the mites are going to proliferate because of humidity but they're also going to be uh if you miss the cage itself i mean they're going to be getting drowned you're going to see them and most likely unless someone uses cypress mulch for the animals which i don't it's going to be pretty apparent on the substrate right away if there's something yeah gotcha you know yeah treating mites and uh i mean if it's in your whole green tree python collection i mean i don't know what that's like but that uh it's it's going to be it's going to be a nightmare yeah yeah i mean where do you have like a bunch of carpets and there's mites on them you're screwed i mean then it's going to have to reach for the preventomite yeah i mean you could still you you could still do the other one too like each time like kill them direct on contact with the uh deeply but yeah that's bad yeah yeah no cool um so let's see where where where we at um i think we talked about it i think we talked a lot about a lot of these different topics but one thing i do want to ask your thoughts on um i've always heard and i've always been afraid of working or bringing in any kind of adult condro um into the collection um they seem to have a hard time with acclimation from what i've seen i mean some people i guess to have success obviously but uh everybody that i know it seems to not have success i don't know if that has to do with they're not following where the condro has been and maybe the it's you know the uh the regimen the keeping regimen that the the previous keeper was keeping and then you know stresses them out maybe that's what causes problems um but you have any do you have any issues with that or have you had any experience with that or do you have any thoughts on that yeah it really depends on the individual animal and it also depends upon the husbandry of the person the animal's going to and uh how the animal is maintained beforehand and afterwards um at the same time different collections it's for any snake different collections of uh different strains of bacteria so whatever bacteria naturally on the animals are not going to be the same even if it could be the same species per se of bacteria they're going to be different um it depends on the on the green tree python i mean i've had animals where i picked them up locally drove to my house five miles away and the thing would need for a week and then once they get over that period boom it's it's on it's on like donkey tongue not a problem uh other animals i mean i had some uh imported obviously illegally well caught young subadolter is um probably the filtiest parasite load i've ever seen um hold backs from the farm too right right back from the farm um wow yeah those those things i mean they came out of the uh they came out of the shipping bags or hanging down feet and i thought i'm that nice it just depends um yeah it's it's the individual i i'd say adults like uh as long as you're on your game right um as long as someone didn't ship you something that had a mild respiratory infection or no there's this one awesome guy that uh was always on the forums and all of a sudden he got out and then uh somebody else blew the whistle like hey this this guy has got uh he's got some nasty lethal crap that's coming this whole collection he's uh selling his animals off for a premium to kill yours and that guy did that but he got called out on it before he was done but he yeah killed some other people's animals it just depends you know like who it is you're buying from you know a lot of adult entry pythons it can be fine right yeah yeah that's how you keep them like some people like they build a rack and like oh i keep them in like these little tubs i mean and some people that are like really highly successful the species keeps their animal like that all right one one thing about Maxwell i mean i might talk crap about his view even though he said he wasn't against localities and maybe he wasn't but uh as far as his husbandry i mean he did grow his animals up pretty large and some people do do that but his cages for adult females he kept them in 48 by 24 by 24 right or he had cages 40 or like his males were 36 by 24 by 24 not a lot of people do that like his cage sizes were spot on for in my opinion um they might look like they sit there on the stick all the time and uh females tend to be more uh sedentary right but you know when they're when they're hungry they're on the move and males will be all over the place other people think that you know let's keep them ill in a small cage we'll burn himself out to the breeding season he's moving all around i mean it's only been like a few seasons that i cared a pair of them i don't have a problem i put my males in i mean they're breeding her within 15 minutes to that night like they waste no time right they truly like to have sex just for the hell of it because they sure aren't like nags but uh sometimes not helpful yeah um so yeah i mean you can get an adult it can be killer it just depends like how do you keep your animals is that animal been in a nice big setup you know with like three perches or the right diameter maybe according to someone's opinion like how are you keeping it compared to how it was before are you shoving that thing in a tub maybe they eat better in a tub confined space but yeah just do you think do you think that the size of the perch matters like yes it does yeah they're gonna go for the highest point well if you don't want perches i mean if it's a like pretty large animal you don't want it like hanging on a wire well yeah obviously but well yeah that's uh yeah i mean so so like it if you have cords to a heat panel or lights and uh you don't have them slowly attached they're gonna go right through that of course love it yeah what's this thing drops all the way down to the bottom and they'll be like hanging in drop the floor like yeah they'll be like this is fun yeah yeah it's annoying little bastards so you know i mean you don't want to to larger the diameter you want it like the big various porridge just right um where that is no no more the width of the snake really but if you have different perches they'll choose where they want to go it's usually a center perch right yeah i just know that uh i'd you know speak into some kandra people they're very particular about the size of the perch where you know meaning like to the inch you know do you know yeah yeah i mean i i mean babies i mean i put them on three-eighths inch uh it's gonna be it you could even go thinner than that actually i think it was even thinner than three-eighths yeah i just got the regular plastic hangers they're fine on that then you move up to half inch i mean little most of them don't need more than an inch in diameter um i mean some of my in my 16-year-old manicori female she'll go on a i mean she'll go on a large perch it's like the fiberglass habitat perch i mean maybe that thinks like an inch and a quarter inch and a half she'll go where she wants but yeah it's it's pretty specific sizes you know of course if i had natural wood or treated non-toxic which would be non-toxic sealant would be far preferable that pvc right um yeah i mean then that's going to be an irregular surface right cool so what what kind of cages do you use to the condros well you know like you know the dimensions that max will use would be my ideal but you know well impossible and i'm a used cages kind of guy i have but okay i have bought some new i mean i'll buy them new but i have a habitat systems which is they're pretty darn expensive they're not necessarily the best cage because they look okay they have they have some quirks so i mean i have a triple tower that's 38 exterior dimensions it has the hollow core so it's probably like 36 or so um the width of that material comes 20 inches deep standard unless you want to pay a habitat of premium to put together two pieces and make it deeper they come 20 inches deep and each level is 24 inches high so the females are in that um the males in other cages like 30 20 24 yeah so pretty much those sizes for the habitat cages then are i got some uh jim sharporn pvc cages like 2007 when you used to glue them together different and those are on the smaller side like 32 20 deep 24 high all the animals there are fine except for uh one females probably too large for that cage I mean she's uh i mean she probably doesn't weigh more than like a thousand grams 1200 but okay five five foot long female and she's a big girl yeah just needs a little bit more space i guess yeah i mean as soon as uh gonna be moving as soon as i move mm-hmm now i'm gonna need more condro cages so my next cages will be 24 by 24 by 20 uh 36 i mean would i like to put them in a 48 by 24 by 24 my 16-year-old girl on the other big one yeah i would yeah so that but yeah um what do you use for heat panels or yeah pretty much the habitat systems come with uh helix panels built in so it's um they're like yeah they're like the reptile basics uh so ABS housing with the fiberglass face um and then the heating elements actually fiberglass the reptile basics ones have a fuse so that malfunctions it turns off oh that's nice yeah i mean smart do that i don't use those though these are built into the uh habitats on two of them uh i'd like to rip them out and slap in pro products okay but they're in there they're still okay now i think they're good but in general pro products panels metal heating element no off-gassing not ABS i mean the reptile basic ones are good because of that fuse but i do use full spectrum lighting okay ABS is a copolymer and at the grades of exposed to UV oh explicitly that i don't know what the plastic is on the housing on reptile basics but on helix it's uh ABS and it will yellow you may be some are polypropylene but um yeah i mean it's it's just i really like the pro products panels there's no fiberglass face there's no smell uh i mean it's an endorsement for ball towns and pro products so then i mean he's he's a great guy to call and he'll talk your ear off yeah it's just tells you use like uh what's what size is your cage right it's the uh what's your room temp what's this okay boom boom boom unless you're honest yeah you just call up and you just order what you want see how you know it's nice that he kind of walks you through it oh for sure we not did any of the other panels like not to say that uh those other ones are on necessarily not good but kind of a little bit maybe yeah i mean yeah what what what what temps you keep in the mat yeah like 86 hotspot okay like some people go like yeah i mean some people go like 84 at the most i mean there's like a big like difference in opinion on that um yeah you know but it's gonna get real crazy i'd like look at the temps and like a region like year-round and like but now 86 pretty good as long as uh you know all the time they'll be away from the panel so you could say well it's too hot they're always away from the panel um but i mean they they go back and forth actually i'm looking at them right now and uh yeah three of them are under the panels and three or not well ones i just looked at yeah you know the picture themselves i guess or figure it out themselves yeah you know that's it i mean that's that's one thing like uh Maxwell's website like all is uh opinion back then everyone was keeping on like they need a horizontal gradient like a tall vertical cage no good um i mean of course heights good if you can keep everything up temps humidity right with the pro products panels you can or any panel um and it's less drying than like a heat lamp or ceramic no danger it burns you low profile pretty right in the roof of the cage hmm very cool yeah that's very cool i i my guys i have them in the arborial cages like everybody else and it sucks because they don't fit into the stack which i have all my longer cages for my carpets and it's like just throw the damn purchase in the three quarters and call it a day on so you don't have to go get the arborial cages quoting quote no i mean yeah i mean uh if you had an animal plastics 48 by 24 24 you have a big condo or even not that big of a condro the condor is not going to complain you slap pictures in that cage you have your panel yeah they're they're gonna be they're gonna like it yeah they're they're really not gonna get all bent out of shape about it so yeah no that's yeah i know pretty awesome so and i would try that stuff because i keep my ruppies in the longer cage too so and i know some people keep them in the arborial cages so but uh with the stigma that kind of goes with condros like we talked we kind of touched on earlier that the major thing you'd always heard of was that they're fragile um we we talked about some health issues like our eyes prolapses and just drop in dead um we're just kind of we're wondering your kind of thoughts on these kind of health issues you know is there something to watch out for what do we do so yeah i mean the uh the respiratory infection which can happen from uh it's too humid with maybe there's a lot of bacteria in the cage or maybe it's too too dry all the time they're going to get a respiratory infection uh you know it's it's pretty hard to replicate that a high humidity with a constant airflow other rainforest i mean you can mess around with it counts of bread ones you're going to be more solid um preventative preventative maintenance for respiratory infection um so that means no feces in the cage no urates in the cage no feces on the perch mm-hmm the same kind of people they'll say you know it's natural mites are natural uh no like yeah it's you're not going to get rid of bacteria they're in there and there's going to be some very potent lethal bacteria on your snakes no matter what they are and you can culture it but when things are screwed up they're going to be opportunistic pathogens you're going to get a respiratory infection in your animal so yeah no no feces golden rule no no poop i mean it makes sense right it's like some urates and poop you know going there and like pour some water on the substrate and heat it on one side you're going to go in there and like miss the cage no you got to clean it um so preventative as far as a respiratory infection is a veterinary emergency and you need a good vet not just anyone a lot of you know you get a really bad one maybe just give you an refluxus and betrol injectable and send you on your way no culture um of course it can cause tissue necrosis there are abscesses uh maybe the bacteria is resistant maybe it's not more up to date that so maybe they're like here have some what people like to call fortaz which is seftazadim um here's seftazadim you know give these shots and uh call me in a while now man they have a respiratory infection no matter what kind of sneak it is go in you have to have a good vet uh you have to have a culture and sensitivity run no matter how much a cause has to be done right you get it done right the vet's gonna make a judicious guess in the meanwhile while waiting for results most of the time it's going to be seftazadim in my collection turn out of ten cultures and i've been sent things that became sick later and one instance i screwed up and i caused an ri and an animal i've only caused whatever but it was bad um yeah and in my collection the bacteria is there is resistance to seftazadim so if i guess someone gives gives me it sends me on my way my animal will be dead right so yeah i mean what waiting on a biotic is used really depending on what the culture results show uh mean a veterinarian's a veteran uh the doctor um some things that are want to going to want to keep in their back pocket and not use it to prevent like antibiotic resist uh resistance things like that on the other hand like maybe in an ignoramus and veterinary medicine is not my field i want to do a treatment and i want to knock it out fast i mean maybe some vets will like that idea but uh you know there's there's certain things they're uh they don't want to give because they're potentially nephrotoxic and that on the case would be one of them so the amino glycosides not do not want to use them except for amacase and still potentially nephrotoxic and sulfate antibiotics are there's some others so but some antibiotics are synergistic they um affect the bacteria different ways and we use together it's like a one-two combo and stuff's going fast right um and then uh injectable fluids for a while it's thought that lactated ringers was uh dangerous and green tree python is now made or not green tree python's any snake um because of the lactate and uh it's very anaerobic uh metabolism um but now like i saw a recent uh recent article from mater and um it's not the case so i mean there'd be like a specific fluids mix called a reptile cocktail or they're going to be plasma light fluids and it's not buffered with a lactated with a yeah a lactate um yeah it's not lactated ringers lrs so i mean as long as you inject a fluids it's to prevent nephrotoxicity uh as an animal it's uh it's getting problems i mean the same time you can get blood work done that starts to get more pricey i mean the blood works it's always a good idea but um it's going to get expensive you don't have to have it done in minimum culture and sensitivity appropriate antibiotic and other people's collections the septazademia will knock things out just fine or not um but yeah you never want to you never want to do like i'm going to do my like fixed vapor rub at home or like i just got my bottle of petrol here i'm just going to go ahead and go ahead and do this because i already shoved some horse case down this imports uh throat to deworm it yeah uh uh i mean for some people when you are too yeah you mean maybe the other animals forever and they're like oh i just do things like this i got my haul without back but uh you know so that's respiratory infections veterinary emergency don't dick around the condro is going to be dead yeah just go go go straight into that and get it taken care of immediately yeah and i know you touched good yeah go ahead i mean i know i said i know you touched on a bunch of different stuff there have you ever considered um nebulization drugs where you kind of like to fog them yeah i mean there's a whole lot getting a fogger and fogging f10 or like uh doing antibiotics um yeah i mean you're fogging a disinfectant actually is an f10 that is made for that i mean i don't know if it's any difference in the sc and the uk um most of the vets i talked to i mean if you ask them about that they're going to say yeah mr stabber you're going to say it's a waste of antibiotic it's a waste of antibiotic i mean you're going to use a lot and uh the way the way uh squamous lungs are at least snakes i mean it's not like real deep breaths how deep are you going to penetrate um or i mean there's a highly experienced keeper that swears fire they do uh nebulization with a with an antibiotic and you do what they do i mean for me i'm working with the vets uh hopefully they tolerate me a little bit how do you maintain antibiotic um i'm working with the vets it's going to be injectable and so right antibiotics it's gone fast yeah just to get just get it cleared out yeah i mean there there are i mean you can look in like uh that's how medicine surgery there's doses for nebulization certain antibiotics yeah they they just are and just so you know what you're not you know obviously know what you're doing with injections and stuff like that you don't want anybody doing something jamming somebody somewhere you're not supposed to no i mean uh i mean uh depends on the clinics and uh yeah yeah i mean how experienced the individual is like uh one clinic i went to up north where i'm from uh yeah you wrote a stop cut chapter two and reps home medicine surgery is fast bet if you uh aquarium you went over there hmm great awesome vet and other vets were good there too and uh cool yeah they would give you uh suppose it was stuff tasadema would be a frozen vial several frozen vials and they give you the syringes and you draw it up and they uh weigh your animals yeah those mean uh yep i i have all that stuff i only need the concentration and i know what to inject to give you the syringes they'll give me what i need if i needed something that necessarily was not visit sometimes uh it just depends um yeah so there's that way or vets will preload it for you and like in air pockets yeah preloaded syringes a lot of them do that here or i mean if you're like completely like never done you that before uncomfortable i mean then you can come in and know inject your animal it's going to be every three days every two days enjoy that that'll be yeah well yeah i mean there's definitely the correct place to inject and the anterior third there's a muscle that runs along either side of the spine and that's the injection point never the back because of the way they're a renal portal system where it actually goes if you inject in the wrong place oh so now we did kind of touch on frolapses a little bit you're talking about yes getting them all putting i guess putting what came out back in um yeah and throw in a stitch uh have you ever liked that well were some of the really bad frolapses you may have dealt with yeah uh well and 15 years of keeping them um 2007 initially when i got him i would miss the animals direct and there's missing too much and they'll start to get dark spots on him on the scales and uh actually rot you can hit it with silvidine um trying to stop it yeah it's like uh it was too humid and i cut back on missing and a couple animals the sheet was going they got dried out a few females like had a rock hard turd stuck in them um great so i made the genius decision uh hey let's uh try and palpate this a little bit bad move um yeah better off just leaving them i mean trying like uh try and get a laxatives down i mean there's different things you can do or go to the vet um Jesus yeah i mean so soaks weren't working okay yeah they both prolapsed but not a telescopic telescoping kind like sideways so like uh you imagine a sausage link mm-hmm yeah tie it off like the side this intestine coming out sideways and then going back in like just a bolus of rock hard turd and i don't think it would have happened if i i mean maybe it would have anyway but i don't think it would have happened if i had not palpated it also actually happened to someone else though and they weren't palpating snake but it still seems to happen yeah it did it uh that's the guy you got to get in and they're going to cut the side of intestine remove the impaction pitch it up when animals soon they removed it start stitching then touch most point itself back in fine that animal went on no problem the other one there's a lot out it's probably nerve damage that animal never recovered i mean i kept it live for like a year or two painting different things finally when i start seeing real small meals uh a year later i did it again so i had to pull the plug in yeah jeez i've only ever happened in seen in scrub pythons happened to one of my malleukins and we just kind of showed everything back in and he was fine so well yeah if it's if it's like the telescoping kind i mean they can do that i've had recently in the past year again one cage a little bit uh too dry snake doesn't move a whole lot poop little bit hanging out um minor and then actually uh the babies i hatched that's another thing i mean as much as it uh sucks for uh them to be started on lizards like i don't know some baby ponderose pinky mice takes a toll and that it makes sense is carpet readers are saying pinky rats can cause prolapse i mean pinky mice definitely end with ponderose yeah so i hop in there with the minor one it's it's pretty easy to fix with saturated whole water with powdered sugar you put it on pretty much sucked stuff back up and and small ones and if it's not bad there's ways to fix it if it's if it's won't stay in then you need a stitch if it's a baby you're not going to be able to put a stitch no matter what yeah okay so i know you've talked about feeding with the we talked about the rat pinks and the prolapse and all those stuff do you have the other guidelines when it comes to feeding of like what you feed and how often you do it yeah um yeah as far as feeding condros like i suck um i mean i'm okay i'm never gonna be like i'm gonna be guilty of the midget farmer like i have not not intentionally but uh okay i mean it takes me five years to get a female up to size i mean sometimes six and it's just uh i mean theoretically they could go at four but i mean then again i'm shooting for maybe a slightly larger size not not the like 1200 gram the 2000 gram fat humongous snake that uh some people can yeah i mean i'm shooting for like 800 grams plus 900 grams on the female you know it might be larger than other people keep their animals and smaller than some um as far as feeding them like the i mean the babies have a real high metabolism but then again if you're giving them a bunch of pinkies maybe they prolapse i mean about once a week okay once once a week and then it's like oh cut down to like every 14 days of the year two years my first green tree python i had no clue they're always hungry i fed her as much as she wanted i mean that snake was six six feet long in the size of the small carpet python but she never weighed above 1200 grams it was a seriously large condro once once i started reading around here what people are doing that's when the midget farming started hmm god you know i don't know i mean for either for either snake i mean once like once a jungle is up to four years old like i'm gonna i'm gonna grow them to get up to a good size by four and then i'm gonna cut back um for the green tree pythons yeah i mean maybe i feed like every couple weeks adults it just depends on the animal i mean i have trouble growing up my animals like the size i've seen some imported ruse or some of them can be pretty darn large they haven't been two bigger ones coming in a while that i've seen yeah they can be pretty damn big maybe they're really old animals and i guess the morocs can be pretty darn large as well yeah yeah definitely not an expert on feeding sorry neither is eric so it's fine i of course had to be full to stop feeding my conner so um i think i think buddy yelled at me i'm like i'm like i fed it around he goes stop it and i'm like okay so it's one of those things um yeah well i mean uh i mean i guess like some keepers have observed like uh poorly calcified eggs when feeding like uh wrap pups or small rats um i mean uh not going to go against anyone that has extensive breeding experience like that has to say on the other hand i mean very diet i mean occasional rat here there's not going to be a bad thing yeah like a fully developed small rat of the animal is large enough it like a mouse is always a scooby snack and occasional rats not going to hurt and some people are going to switch into rats because we want that two thousand grand puppy mouse yeah but i that's another good one all right it's all right so um i have you heard of the african soft first and people are talking about those as being excellent conjure food or is that just a gimmick by the guys who sell rats no i mean why not i haven't said my knack they can't really get them i mean i could but i guess not gonna yeah they're perfect having a bunch of you shut up yeah no one's talking anyway yeah they are okay yeah i don't know very very diet always good yeah yeah i like very diet yeah right better than better than the same thing every freaking day but um i mean if you fed me a Snickers bar for the rest of my life i probably would survive you'd be a happy but you probably wouldn't be the healthiest person around you know what i mean like you'd be uh see but if you're even uh what's that i mean i mean you'd basically be like a fat conjure on a stick you just lay there eventually you die so yeah now see if you're being kept by a midget farmer though you're going to eat anything to give you speed so it's not going to be very often oh god a Snickers bar i won't be another one for a month yeah exactly so we're actually not but what's your approach to breeding the chondros oh breeding them yeah i i think uh one reason i'm pretty good at keeping them alive is because i haven't been breeding them i take that all out right there yeah yeah i just won't die yeah i mean uh some uh i mean breeding i'm like like Rico is pretty much the godfather on that producing more chondros than anyone else and it was cool because you could go to the signal page and i Rico did work with some localities um and he also had he had some designers i mean it's always good Rico's always there great guy talked to you about whatever good animals um yeah as far as breeding i mean Rico had a crop ton of chondros i mean in the amount of clutch you could produce there's a lot of animals to get to that there'd be some like parens and it's like a slug out or no go i mean yeah if you want to have a substantial amount you're gonna have to have a lot of them um as far as breeding them like a a friend just female had her clutch you raised her up for six years uh silent all right didn't even see it laid the clutch like dead a couple days later was clicking i mean what what are you going to do this make out the respiratory infection like you either inject if you know to save the female maybe it trashes the eggs all right i i've i've been lucky knock on wood i mean we only have three clutches and two of them have been slugs and one was 100% fertile um female the female is fine but i mean i i don't drop real low they come go in 75 76 maybe i drop the day temps a little bit maybe that's why you get slug sometimes but one time it's 100% fertile me who knows why they do that sometimes um you know the other thing is is the weather was screwed up going hot cold hot cold yeah i mean three parens going two males are like oh what the weather's hot we're done and one male like who never never gives up i mean he prolapse to hemipine year one he's the uh one dong wonder and he knocks it up uh yeah yeah i mean uh um no nobody's sick i mean nobody comes down with our eyes so far so good but i mean it's freedom all it's right maybe you would happen to me more but i think not too low and like uh you know just really watching the husbandry i mean if it happens it happens the other thing is is a by a main number of things can go on when breeding snakes you know are they gonna yeah i mean stuff happens with carpets too i mean i think i've actually seen more spontaneous deaths and uh just in people's jungles alone than i have uh like weird stuff is dead uh yeah than in the green sheep python necessarily yeah i mean it's i guess this i mean people will argue with me like oh they're easier you're full of crap like no they're not they are an attorney keeper's snake period and i'll say that again and again so i'm wrong okay fine but you know stuff happens yeah um yeah it does yeah i mean when it when you're ready when you're ready to keep them you're ready to keep them and there's uh there's a lot of information like some of it might be accurate but i'm not like uh now that facebook's taken over like merrily a birdie swarms dead but you still to go there and like you could have any number of like pretty experienced people and then some not so much i mean any question you have about i know it'd be answered um right which looks great you can still get on facebook but it's not the same um no it's not any information's gone like a week later when everybody else posts something different yeah it's like any species like people get on don't do their homework or like i mean now it's the guy at the pet store what to do and you see it happens yeah right i mean then you find out the hard way as long as everything's in order and like you're prepared you're up to the level to take care of them you're good there's still going to be things that happen so this could be that way with any snake you mean bottom line is uh are you making uh a rain forest no you're not but even right i mean captive brad they're going to be okay like if you want to keep colored lizards you could go grab a big wild caught male he's not going to do so well you offer one captive brad babies they're going to do a little bit better they still don't have the sun unless you expose them where yeah in a sun so that speaking of sun yeah do uh condro phenotypes yeah in uh the white yeah so so i mean uh so ryan ryan uh bred his he uh bred him back produced probably the highest white condro i've ever seen anyone make um there's that i mean there's different different things is that like locality is not matching up um jian you'll know she does uh the research on them um there's supposed to be a study coming out he's done a more recent molecular study to try and look at species to limitation that's not published yet um depends on what he sequenced and uh you know sampling how divergent i mean really to look at any of that i need a genome-wide sample there's different methods like what you look at maybe more or less divergent or maybe there's gene flow you don't know but i he'll be publishing that and that should be interesting as to what he says there will be yeah there's always more to do yeah uh is a question answered definitively in my mind no unless i do it but you know oh yeah that but i i never will be so it's gonna be it um see whatever reels does yeah i mean that across across the board uh different localities it depends on what it is like if an animal that's like pretty much gonna display its phenotype and captivity perhaps less white um you know the craze happens to be red babies or the yellow babies uh what someone called a gyapura what someone could call a sarong a yellow manic worry i mean they're gonna have variation in how blue it is maybe the blue is affected by light maybe not it's not a pigment it's a structural structural color generation in the color cells um yeah i mean you're pretty much guaranteed you're gonna get a blue striped animal you want to mess around with a razor morockeys there's no guarantee you want to get uh a red baby quote unquote highland animal even though there may not be such a thing or there might be um you what you want to get that killer wild phenotype like those big dark dark green triangles outlined with blue white all over the back uh they never look like that one raised in the dark sub may always look like the blind cave fish you know they need they need sunlight they need casing they need light seems like something's missing i mean that would be like that would be kind of like uh you know there's it there is exception there's like uh the hypobreadles and like riddles more red but i mean the barker yeah in the chapter on centralian pythons in 1994 uh they're talking about not trailing reporting wild individuals taken out of the environment centralian pythons lose color in three to four months it's right there same kind of thing you could have like genetic for more red but uh when that sucker is in the light and possibly dietary pigments if the in that case centralian utilizes them certain carotenoids be more red or it's all light based back to green tree pythons um the green coloration definitively could be affected by uh certain dietary pigments specific carotenoids did a lot of squamades actually do use um the white there's no pigment for white that's i mean they're called leukophores got color cells when they generate white it's not pigment base that i know of i mean i could look in the literature and find instances and some types of perhaps um but it seems like there's something going on i mean there's a genetic part right but also you know that the light have any trigger and are the pigments maybe you know it's yeah you know i i worked on these uh lizards side blotch lizards okay they're they're polymorphic um for throat coloration in some populations and they do this whole weird evolutionary dynamic of where one male beats one in a strategy in another it's called rock paper scissors and the professor's famous for it okay um them they will not get the breeding coloration and captivity so i mean it's maybe like partially hormones and the current system interactions with one another uh dietary pigments and light so i mean i i uh bred them that's the babies raised them up conditions were not ideal for the lab setup it works good for what they're doing but it's not how i would set it up to do it so i mean do and uh gave them gave them the pigments and i kind of got them to get the throat color but what was weird is looking at what the uh source of the coloration was except for the crot my component it was all all things that they make themselves so why they would not express some of the color when they could made me kind of think like uh maybe uh the pigments are turning it all on maybe but then yeah but then again it could have been the lizards needing to kick each other's ass out in the wild on a rock those missing hormones don't know yeah the definitive though like a lot of the red baby look how's there except for uh some red matte quarries it end up looking pretty nice but even then they look great but uh it's in general wild caught green tree pythons if they're not all beat up yeah are a much much better example of what they should look like in the sun very cool so i should get more sunlight on my chondros so yeah i mean uh or just like full spectrum i mean it may not have yeah i mean if you're if you're starting you're starting with animals that like it's not in the genetics i mean camp squeeze blood from the turnip but that is true could not at all or we'll do nothing yeah it it might though i mean uh yeah one uh one guy that uh i sold a few the baby eros because i succeeded in losing for them though which really was unexpected but um two wouldn't eat no matter what and one i kept assist fed for six months but friend that's bred a lot said by six months they don't eat or don't it's very much true finally through in the towel problem was is those four like uh some of the prolapse from the pinky mice i had fixed it but once they do that i can't see them for a month um yeah and it's and if they uh not it yeah they weren't eating in the first place that months they're dead yeah and a story but anyway guys about this some good ones i sold one of them i shouldn't have sold uh you put them under light right away and they seem to be doing okay with white coming in you know whether they can get it anyway but i yeah one of them's looking pretty good i mean time will tell when they fully change like they can fake you out but when they start getting white more and more of it when they're still yellow that's a good sign yeah it's true and you put them under uh you met 5.0 from like day one when they showed up so do you have any tricks on getting babies to feed i know you should just kind of had a few that didn't go the distance for you yeah i thought uh i have to talk to like buddy but see me about that um well i mean it just depends on the babies like uh so it's nice about the oxes they're angry babies steady yeah you have angry babies you're good you're gonna get in the light every there yeah i mean it's it's really i mean there's different like strike points or uh touch points you can elicit a strike on the animal right um and that stuff's online there's even like videos you know there's like yeah different youtube things uh probably find something rico feeding them um yeah i mean there's those touch points to touch them to elicit a strike uh i mean some people sat with like uh chick down i haven't tried that yet i mean i use chick and broad yeah i think he's uh soaked in a little sodium chicken broth worked on some of the uh stimpson's pythons some of the anterasia it worked some it didn't um same thing i mean this i used uh someone sent me some uh velvet gecko sheds i used chicken broth and it didn't work except you didn't work on these babies i mean the two wouldn't strike no matter what uh i mean i tried everything you can do yeah um aside from like finding baby house geckos and just feeding on maybe i should have they'd be alive i've done that it's horrible don't do it so yeah i mean i i could do it i could deworm them but maybe they get caught sit here they get something i can't get rid of yeah sorry didn't make sense yeah but i mean it's not like uh yep baby uh baby carpets i mean maybe some of them are going to eat a frozen thawed wrapped pink left in the tub i mean that chick's not going to work on the condros right they're just going to stare at it all night and it's nothing's going to happen there yeah all right well we we have the last three questions of the night for you um and that would be if you could have any type of reptile without restrictions what would it be and why uh uh yeah i'd pretty much what i have uh and uh oh yeah i'd like to go over to australia and get some certain modalities of stimpson's pythons and and get some uh some blonde spotted you know i don't really need any anteria more so i just want some of those uh crazy looking uh western stems like cobara or like it's just the white white cream ones would just fat red markings i get those get some bowlands uh you know and get a bunch of amazon basins and i'm set what i have that's sweet plus some uh really sweet vocality specific entreasier and the bowlands cool so i guess the answer is if you could go anywhere to her for that restrictions it would be australia right yeah yes and yes and i don't like to stumble upon king brown snakes or type bands yeah that's the fun yeah go go play the con snail and the title pool can't wait yeah it's just death everywhere so yeah no uh i you know it's like shoot i'd like to do that but uh when i was a kid i mean all i did was go looking for stuff so it's like now that i'm older i really don't like i kind of boring i mean i'm sitting right here i can uh drive 45 minutes i'm in Joshua tree i can go drive all those roads more crazy i mean pretty much sometimes um i walk out and it's like uh a coach whip racer oh wow yeah so i say this coastal form down here they're pretty awesome i mean they're down here it's like sort of it's too built up right here so i grab them and i relocate them to a better area you know i don't think they're going to be like a rattlesnakes to where they're going to die trying to find their way back home yeah right yeah i mean yeah yes australia all right i guess yeah yeah nah welcome to guinea pop a new guinea more more chondros there you go yeah i forgot about that one they're not how could i not answer that yes yeah that makes more sense so uh it's somebody wanted to get in touch with you how would they go about doing that that's way it's facebook right now yeah okay uh yeah i mean either my personal page or uh yeah that's the best way all right perfect so it says they want to get in touch with you about some condro babies or some jungle babies or whatever else comes about you can do it that way cool great all right awesome chatting with you guys absolutely it was very cool and we hope you have success with your chondros at some point yeah so all right i i i did i will again awesome awesome uh thanks for stopping by dude and we'll uh we'll have you back on we promise all right cool all right guys all right man take care you have a good night good night all right wow there's a lot of information in there Owen far too much for my brain to comprehend and it's good that you had this show because you're on a jungle kick right now um this is a message to all jungle breed jungle breeders out there eric is on a jungle kick send him pictures you'll probably buy it so yeah i uh this is my year for buying some nice jungles for sure yeah yeah um oh so okay i still can't get past uh midget breeder midget farmer well midget farmer midget farmer i will i will have that t-shirt made for you like midget farmer and i'll have a big snake and then a tiny snake next to it oh man yeah it'll be good it'll be fine that's that's awesome that made my night but um it was it's the best thing we take away but anyway uh we should talk we should plug the car professors fast as possible before we run out of time i got that minutes all right take your time yeah we got time um yeah real quick well let's do the car professors okay southern car professors uh saturday april 30th starts at four p.m it's in Arlene in texas uh bill steagels uh hosting it so if you want information on how to get there or etc etc go talk to send him a message um it's going to be good people good times uh you know and plus you get to uh you know uh hang out with some of the uh some really well-known guys are down there in texas as far as carpets condros go uh so definitely worth checking out uh southwest car professors on that's on friday may 20th and that starts at 12 noon and then i guess it goes all the way into the night it's at living legless reptiles uh they're doing a barbecue um and then they're going to meet up on the 21st uh do some kind of herping uh the local hiking spot that they have please rsvp to travis johnson uh for the address and who's coming so that they can get a head count for room they could tell you about local hotels uh they're also doing a auction for us arc uh so if you have something to uh to put up they're gonna uh they're gonna put the bids up closer to the date okay so and then there's us northeast car profess may 21st yeah birds barrel p a this is the fifth annual uh apparently yeah we messed up the uh the shirt and the face facebook logo so the shirt should be the first thing and then that the thing we're using is actually the facebook page logo that's on the shirt i like that better i don't know i don't care okay i won't anyway this is the fifth annual carpet can can he probably will he nah but yeah um there is an event page uh so if you've been uh invited uh over there just let us know if you're coming or not uh like uh oh and says if you're coming drop us a pm text email carrier pigeon uh whatever you have to notify me that you're coming yes and what you're bringing so uh yeah don't just go over at my house so uh the carpet's best shirt is live um it's all over the place please spread it around because uh all the proceeds are going to go to us ark uh so you get a cool shirt and support a good organization that uh fights for us yeah definitely uh a win-win in many aspects um and uh let's see and i will see what i can do about changing that logo i don't know if i can because we've already launched it but i will see right we'll toy with that idea if not it's still a cool looking shirt oh yeah absolutely we and it's not black for people that uh no look it's not we got kids please by the two people learning two many black shirts yeah it's chocolate dark it's not my fault that the people own too many black shirts have been going to concert since 1966 so i was in the library in 66 so no you weren't complaining about that yeah i have no one to think yeah anyway there were two other people who were yeah remain nameless um that went on to the 1966 no wonder they have all bought ways many black shirts yes it's not our fault but you know that we will accommodate you yes because that's how we roll um it is usark.org sign up for the mailing list donate anything you can cool feature for shipy reptiles as you can make a donation uh when you're shipping your snakes this is something i do every time you buy a snake from me just so you know uh i donate out to uh usark um next week we're uh doing a little more rallya et cetera um we're doing uh ryan rumble is uh joining us and we're talking colubrid colubrid yes milk snakes king snakes corn snakes asian beauty snakes uh yeah uh what else like i love it because we went to nerd and matt was like oh my god look at all these retakes we're like yay retakes then you and i found the asian quite capable and rat snake that like would puff out its neck when it was angry and we're like oh my god this is the coolest thing ever and matt was like in the corner looking at ballbythons so it was like having everybody's different tastes right there was funny as hell but you know you and i have been talking back and forth all week doing like so who which one of us is going to get asian quite cave dwelling rat snakes first so then the other one doesn't have to buy them we'll see what we just both get them yeah yeah yeah doing all that stuff it's been fun so yeah and we'll get into the whole trip to nerd at some point that was cool yeah yeah definitely um maybe even have matt come on and chat with us but uh yeah i do think we were psychotic for doing it one day but you know that i told you i got extremely i got extremely sick that that day the day after right well yeah we're eating nothing but junk food driving in a car i don't know but you but i slept half the day on something no i had work at six so i got up and i made it like i made it like two hours and then two hours in and you're like i'm out i'm done i i couldn't breathe i was having asthma oh my god it's horrible yeah that's crazy anyway so next week we're going to be talking colubrid's a little outside the box but uh i think it's still cool you know ryan uh definitely see him post a lot on Morelle etc yeah cool guy and i think it'll be a great show so yeah uh there's some really cool ones out there yeah absolutely that tons of stuff you shit a lot i mean people don't know they're only downside yeah yeah um so real quick for us Morelle you play some radio dot com if you have any questions or comments or future guests or anything like that info at morelle python radio dot com is our email uh check us out on facebook morelle python radio if it's a like follow us on twitter morelle python you can subscribe to the show on iTunes or whatever podcast app you happen to use um help us spread the word by sharing the shows we appreciate it in the breeders that volunteer at the time appreciate it as well uh as far as myself eb maralia check out my website eb maralia dot com my email is ericade eb maralia you can check out my facebook page i'm on twitter and instagram all under eb maralia oh and you have one minute go roc dash reptiles dot com you can also go to facebook dot com at roc reptiles uh give us a like check us out there uh right now we don't have anything for sale because nothing is hatched yet we are waiting in a clutch of tiger jigs as well as a clutch of super caramel jigs if you want to get on list on any of those contact us through the facebook page or through the website both are good uh as for the upcoming show i might be at hamburger on april 30th i don't know i might be somewhere else we don't know anyways that's all we got for you guys tonight and uh what we'll say is good night and catch you all next week for some more maralia python radio [BLANK_AUDIO]