Morelia Python Radio

Mike Cross talks carpet pythons

In this episode we are joined by Mike Cross from Mid Atlantic Reptile. We will be talking about MIke's awesome collection of carpets and other morelia. He has some amazing animals and his eye for picking the best of the best is showing in the offspring that he is producing. Mid Atlantic Reptile https://www.facebook.com/Mid-Atlantic-Reptile-1548987508754279/?pnref=story

Duration:: 2h 59m
Broadcast on:: 16 Mar 2016
Audio Format:: other

Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Projekt. I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Marklin and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. If you're a buyer or a breeder, you've got to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling definition full of features to help put you in touch with a perfect deal. You can find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, search by sex, weight, more, or other keywords and use our buy-it-now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum med. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buy and selling, use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. Shipereptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. The materials needed to ship the reptile successfully, live customer support in our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. Welcome to Moralia, Haifa, Moralia with your host, Eric Hurst and Owen McIntyre. Good evening everybody. Welcome to another episode of Moralia Python Radio. I'm pretty pumped tonight. We're talking carpet pythons again. You know, Owen, we said last year that we wouldn't try to expand our horizons and spread our wings and touch on other subjects. And it seems like we've sort of not done that. I guess because it is the season for carpet pythons. I mean, this is the time where everything cool is happening, you know? And this is Moralia Python Radio. Not everything else but Moralia Python Radio. I mean, this is... Correct you, Officer. Yeah, thank you. It's like, you know, you get what you're freaking paid for. This is what your kids like. This is the show. So, yes, we're... You warned when you go. Yes. God damn right, Eddie, thanks. We're going to open with that from now on with the award-winning show or the award-winning host. Can we please... We're not the award-winning host. I'm just the award-winning show. If we... I count it. It's fine. Good. But... Yeah, man. You're right. Here's the thing. It's like, this is the time for carpet pythons, but it's also... We counted some cool shit. Like, we had the silver peppered inland show. Now we're doing... We tracked down Mike. We're doing this. We had a show that just you and me. Was that last week? I don't remember. Yeah. We blend together. So, it's like, you know, we'll eventually go and hit on something a little bit different, but right now it's Moralia time. So, enjoy. Yeah. Well, I think... From what I see from the ratings and stuff, which blog talk has changed their ratings, so it's kind of like a little bit... I know it's a little different, so I can't understand it 100% as of yet. It seems like... Because now they calculated on how many listens per day. So, like, before they used to tell you, like, how many listens per month, per year... Right. You could see, like, how, you know, per episode, and then it just gives you a grand total. It seems like now it's just like it just shows you how many people listen to the episode in a day, and then how many people listen to the whole show. You know, I don't know. It's weird. But from what I see, it's, you know, I guess people are getting in the carpet pythons, which is a little pretty sweet. Also, I mentioned that our big day for listening is probably, like, Wednesday. Say it in. I can do it. It's like a bunch of people just like to... Like, they can't listen live. Or some people who like myself don't just wait for that little thing in the little podcast, and it goes, being, "You have a new podcast." It's downloaded, and then you're like, "Oh my God, if you start listening to it." So, like, all my cleaning gets done. Like, I don't care if there could be no cleaning that's done. These would be done in the snake room. I will find cleaning to be done if there's a new serial podcast on. Like, I don't know how fun it works to do. So, I can listen to the podcast immediately. So, I imagine a lot of people we've set are, you know, on the way to work. I know several people said that they don't like to screen their steering wheel when we're talking half the time, or if we're saying something really stupid. Or, yeah. So, it's that kind of stuff. Yeah, I, yeah. It's from people. I'll get textbooks from people on Wednesday for shit I've set on Tuesday. Yeah, I know. Isn't that weird? Yeah. I know. The one thing I did, I screwed up last week was Tinley Park. Apparently, Tinley Park is this weekend. It is not this weekend. I thank you. I'm like, "So, Tinley is not this weekend." You're like, "God, we talked." I'm like, "Yeah, well, turn it down." So, again, yeah, it's this weekend. Yeah, so it's, I know why I didn't go now because it was on my birthday and I couldn't leave for my birthday. Which is, you know, that's kind of, it's a thing. Yeah. It's kind of messed up. I can't do what I want on my birthday. You know what I mean? That is a little, that is a little shitty. Yeah. And I know why I didn't go is because of, you know, I don't have the money or the means and I don't want to. So, yeah. So, there's that. So, if I'm not going out there with, like, you guys, what the hell is the point? Am I going to fly? And if then, if I fly, that'll be when somehow there'll be some vendor dealer there that has, like, a bin filled with, like, rough scales, weightless, $100. Yeah. And it'll be like, you know, buy now, cake now, no shipping. Like, oh, my God. So, you know, it's, that's when Owen rents a car and drives back from Chicago. So, it'd be, it'd be one of those things. So, I am sending friends with shopping lists. So. That's cool. Yeah. Yeah. Shopping list A, T more pythons. Yeah. You're on the T more Python kick, man. I am so badly and it, and I'm not doing it. I will not do it. You will not eat the warning of the Python gurus, like, Nick mutton or Ryan Young. You're just going to give in. You're just going to do it. You're just going to say, fuck it. I'm giving it a try. You forgot to mention Rob, because you said he was telling you that I was stupid about that. So. I am, I will not get the team wars and I will tell you why. Because unfortunately for the T more pythons, there are two pythons that are above them on the list. They need to come here in the summertime. First is I need a pair of black. No. Okay. Okay. I need, I need the black face. It hurts my soul that I have like five gold face white lists and no blacks here. They're like, I don't understand. Chad cooked you up to the good deal the last time we were at Tinley Park. They were right there, man. You remember I hated myself the rest of the day when I said I couldn't do it. Like, do you remember the look on my face and how pissed off I was? Yeah. I want to avoid that again. Um, I talked to Chad and numerous other breeders. We're going to have the black face and I am on everybody's list. So those will be, that, that will be rectified. Um, the other thing is I definitely want inlands, but the inlands might get bounced if I find, uh, if somebody produces rough scales this year. Because I want another pair. So. It's looking like that's a strong possibility, right? I know my voice. Mmm. Anyway. Um, so that's it. So teamwork are on the list. They're really on the list. And I swear to God, if people don't stop posting pairs of like, babies and juveniles that they have for sale, it's like, where did all these come from? Do people like listen that what I'm pining for? And that's what's on frickin' fauna and King Snare right now? It's like Jesus frickin' Christ. If one person comes out of the woodwork with baby teamores, I'm gonna lose my damn mind. So that's exactly what I want to do. I want baby babies. So they're on the list. I promise you they're on the list. Okay. All right. Um, I, uh, I, uh, I don't know. I'm pretty excited just with Carpet Python's, man. I'm pretty content. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm living the dream. I am living the dream, man. You know? It's all right. I mean, you, you could be like, yeah, you're exactly. See, that building is be interested and be happy with the pythons you have. My, my, my blood pythons can have babies. And I don't know what the hell to do with that. It's like, are you really excited? Eh, it's like, I'm sure they're gonna look cool, I think. I don't know. Fast math. It's like, we're at with this thing. Yeah. I'll probably be more excited about them than you will. I know, which is why it'll be like, you know, like these are also like, if you say so. So like, you know, Matt's probably going to get a female blood pythons in the summertime. It's going to be like, just freaking keep it. So it's like, you know, and I don't know what the hell to do with the babies. Um, oh, dude. Section them thing. Good Lord. I'm not doing it. I'm not doing it. Oh, I refuse to do it. Come on, man. It's the right passage. It's not. It's not for you, baby. I am not. It wasn't that bad, but apparently I was doing it wrong. And, you know, Matt kept telling me don't do it. Not that I was doing it wrong, but I just was, I was lined up to get bit constantly. I just kept getting bit like the whole time, just like bit and pythons, you know, and it's like the whole time. I don't want that. I do not want to do that. But yet, but you want teamwork. Don't get it. And that'll make sense. This is how it rashes. This is how I rationalize the teamwork. Right. That is now the end of my rationalization for the teamwork. So you don't have the best. The better argument is that I'm used to psychopathic pythons, like the white lips, and I'm used to animals that are just freaking filthy looking goddamn Dominican red mountain ballers. So why not get an animal that appeals to me? On both fronts. It's a Dominican red mountain baller. What? Right. On both fronts. Exactly. So the teamwork is something about a blood. I mean, they're cool. You know, Matt and Lon, when you talk to them, you get you psyched up about it. And they do look really cool, especially the black ones, but they're not, they're just not me. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hello, I bought blood pythons fans out there. I apologize for the statement that's about to be made. Go ahead, Percy. [laughter] They're just not -- they're not me. I just -- they're not -- I can't. I tried to get psyched about them, and I do enjoy all reptiles, but not to the extent where I want to keep them. So -- Well, a wise man once told me -- A wise man once told me, "You do you, Boo." Exactly. So I gave them a shot and, you know, it was tragic. [laughter] And, you know, and, and, you know, this is, of course, one of the heels of, you know, if, if Matt were to offer me T-NEG babies, I'd probably try it again just because I absolutely love the way that T-NEGs look. So, you know, maybe these are just the wrong ones for me. So I don't know. Maybe we'll give them a shot later on the rope, but, you know, they took the Amazon tree bows. Like, those -- they need to leave because I'm tired of them. [laughter] I don't like the death from above and all that other crap that they instill. And they're so tiny, and I think the one is pregnant, which is exactly what I want now, is more of them. But, yeah, so, again, I tried it. Don't, not me, gonna move on. So, and that's what happens. If you try a species, you either love it and get more of it or get into it or you get out of it. Like, I pride my asses when you gave me glitch, and that exploded into all of them. So, that's a thing that fits me. But, bloods, nah, not -- bloods and bowels just doesn't -- nah. Don't do it. Yeah, the -- the one thing that I've been doing is -- I've been going back and listening to past episodes. No more. Yeah, great. So, it's actually pretty funny. No, it's not. It can't be tragic. If you go back -- No, I will never do it. You said glitch, right, and that whole story was back, you know, on one of the episodes, and I was supposed to -- Facebook feed. Yeah, those pictures, he was -- he was that -- he was from that. Yeah, so, I was listening to probably one of my favorite episodes of all time. One of my favorite. The one with Sean Christian from -- from MP, and -- Yeah. I don't know, man. It's so cool. You're, like, listening back. For one -- I was talking to Rob about this earlier, but for one, like, you don't realize how much you don't know at the time. Like, it -- like, in five years from now, I'm sure I'm looking back and I'll say, "Man, you were stupid." You know what I mean? So, I'm listening back to, like, just -- just talking about keeping reptiles and our experiences and like, "Man, we just -- We're idiots. We're idiots." Like, our -- Oh, my God. The one thing was you were reading a question or something, and when I write -- when I write the questions, I write them out, and I'm just hoping that, you know, it would be the question that you would ask or whatever. Sometimes, like, now, you'll -- you'll ask the question, but then you'll ask your own questions off of that question or whatever as -- as we talk. But back then, we -- we talked to this script. Word. And, like -- and it was, like, screwed up or something. So something -- screwed it up, right? But here's the funniest part. You go like this. No, I don't want to -- you say -- you say, "Well, Eric doesn't trust me with asking questions." So maybe one day when I can ask questions, I won't have to read these stupid papers. That's never ended. [ Laughter ] I'm still not trying to talk or ask questions. So it's funny. See, that's why I don't go back and listen. It's right right there. It's like, no, I can't. What I've been doing is I was listening to -- we're doing -- I've been posting up on Thursdays, throwback Thursdays, our old episodes. And I just post the link over on the Facebook page. And, you know, I just started listening to it. And it's -- I don't know. It's just weird, like, you know, back then, we're talking about, you know, zebra jags. And, like, we're so excited about zebra jags. Like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's the coolest thing ever. Oh, I'm so pumped and excited. I can't wait to produce it. Oh, my God. It's like -- you know, today, we're like -- Yeah. [ Laughter ] Well, it's funny. Looking back at even at that clutch with the incubator with that, that zebra jag, eventually, you -- eventually, I got him from you. So it was like, oh, my God, this zebra jag that produced the -- he's here now. So it's like -- Yeah. It's almost like you hold this animal in such high regard, and yet, a few years down the road, you're not even yours anymore. So -- Yeah. So it's like -- so this was -- like, when we did the one with Sean, it was kind of early on in the very beginning. And it was funny, because at the time, you were still like, you know, I just do -- I like my coastal. [ Laughter ] You know, back -- We're talking about anything else. You know? I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Reason number two, I can't listen to the back stories. But it's like -- but every once in a while, I do like to think what the hell I'd never joined the show. I'd probably just have nothing but frickin' coastal still. And none of those animals would be in there. It's all frickin' your fault in the show. So -- God damn it. We're a bad influence, aren't we? Of course we are, because now on the reptile note, you get to sit down and talk to other reptile nuts. I had a blood python for goddamn sake. Yeah. How did that happen? I got negotiated into that. Yeah. Nice. So, okay. Mike's going to be calling -- well, tonight's -- let's do this first. Tonight's guest is Mike Croft. Mike is -- Yeah. He's been a loyal follower of the show. And he is in -- he has pretty amazing collection, man. I mean, he has -- he has some top-notch animals. He reminds me a lot of like -- I mean, we'll get on and we'll talk about how many animals that he has. But it seems like he's a guy that just kind of like lays under the radar. And he just -- he has some awesome stuff going on. And some people like laying under the radar. It's one of those things. Yeah. So, yeah, he's a real cool dude. And he's here on the east coast, which even makes him cooler. So, we're going to be talking to him in a couple minutes. It seems like we are in the -- again, with carpet pythons, but we're in the carpet fest time of year. Yes. So, we got a bunch of things that we want to just mention at the beginning of the show. I guess the first one that I would throw out there, let's just do the -- So, unfortunately, we can't go to this one because it's on the same day as ours. But the 26th is in southwest. The southwest carpet fest is in -- where is the Pazo? Man, what was the name of the -- well, it's in California. Let's see. It's held at living legless reptiles. Okay. And it's at 12 noon on May 20th. And I guess they're going to go late into the night. Instead of doing a barbecue and all that stuff and 21st -- oh, this is pretty cool. They're going to do a herping adventure at the local hiking spot. So, you want to talk to -- you want to RSVP to Travis Johnson for the address who's coming with you. So, they have a head count for food. They'll be able to get you local hotel information and all that kind of stuff. There's hotels by there. So, it should be a good time. So, it's Friday May 20th and Saturday May 21st. The southern carpet fest is April 30th. And often, what it means to give people a heads up because they're doing shirts. So, if you're interested in a shirt, Austin, Warwick, just give them a -- just give them a PM on Facebook with the size and the quantity no later than 10 o'clock tonight. So, I mean, basically, it's crunch time. Also, another way to get in contact with them other -- wait a minute. Also, another way to get in contact with them on Facebook. The shirts are 22 bucks a piece. And all proceeds of the shirts will go to U.S. Arc. And let's see. And when you do message him, he will let you know how to pay for it. So, if you're looking for a shirt, definitely hit him up. So, and if you're going to be -- that's Bill. You know, Bill's -- he's the host. And it's -- he's predicting that there's going to be quite a number of people coming down April 30th. I know I'm headed down. I don't know about you, oh, and you're on the fence. You haven't answered me yet one way or the other. But that will -- Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, we have discussed this if you remember correctly. Of course not. I'm old. I'm old. I know. Why do we have to do it again? I have no excuse. I remember things. You apparently are all skipping through a field of flowers at the time I'm talking. We will discuss it again after the show. Okay. So, yeah, April 30th and the last year -- because this is their second one -- last year, it was more than just carpet people. You know, you have ballplay on people there. There was that guy, Ezra, that I was talking about. He keeps venomous. Michael Pendel is there. You know, Sean Christian is supposed to come. You know, it's just a huge -- it's a huge group of people. It's a great time to just hang out and talk snakes and reptiles and have some good food and good times, you know. So, they're expecting us to bring cheese steaks and Philly pretzels. Other than that -- well, that -- I don't know. How do you transport a cheese stick? I don't know. See, that's a Philadelphia problem because I've never had the transport cheese stick over a long distance. It's usually in my hands to the nearest table or flat service that it could be easily eaten off of. So, it was like -- what do you mean traveling long distance with it? You just eat it. November 20th. What the hell am I talking about? Oh, my God. We are talking about now. May 21st, Saturday, is the Northeast Carpet Fest. The Northeast Carpet Fest is that day. And, obviously, it's going to be in Birdsboro. Owen is hosting. It's going to be a good time. You know, I don't want to put down the other Carpet Fest because if you're in the area, you definitely should come. But there's something to say about being the original, right? Am I wrong? You know what I mean? Yeah, oh, yeah. We can brag a little bit. And I am going to put up a list on -- I was thinking about this today. I'm going to put up a list because I have -- over this year, I've been, like, stacking, like, stopping my bar area with, like, a whole bunch of different alcohols. You've seen it. So, I almost want to put a list on Carpet Fest. Be like, "What should Owen include in the bar area?" And just see what happens. And just even though I was so jealous of Bill's margarita machine I was looking at them today, I almost bought one. Yeah, we might have to rent one of them, my man. But I'm looking in for that. One of the -- I know you can rent those, like, pina colada machines and stuff like that. Yeah. Well, everybody keeps messaging me about if I'm bringing the apple pie. And that's not a pie, people. That's the -- That is a jar that Owen nearly died when he consumed it when Eric left it here. I mean, like, there's only one here. It's right there. I'm looking right at it. But after Carpet Fest, I cracked one of those open and I was like playing video games, just drinking. I think I called you the next day going, "I don't know how, but I just woke up on the floor of my bar." It said that was -- I don't remember what happened. It was good and very bad. Yeah, I love it. So, yeah, I'm going to be bringing some of that because people keep asking about that. And as we get closer, we'll, you know, get together, list of food. As far as shirts and all that goes, I don't know, I have to touch base, I guess, with Zach or feet. I know he's kind of busy, so we might have to just repeat a shirt or something or change the color or, you know what I mean? Something like that. So, you know, that's where we're at for that. So, a lot of Carpet Fest going on. I mean, it's pretty much -- you've got the whole United States covered right there. If you're on the E Coast, you have a place to go. If you're down south, you have a place to go. If you're out on the west coast, you have a place to go. If you want to go to all three, you could do that too. You know, life's short, man. Playing ticket. You know, you spend $500 on a snake. Spend $200 on a ticket and, you know, you might make new friends, make new connections, learn a few things. You know, I don't know, it's just a good time, man. And, again, I should say, because Buddy was asking us about talking about, you know, making it a Morelia Fest. You know, Condro people. Yeah, yeah. I don't care if you keep garter snakes, man. You want to come and hang out? Yeah. Come on, man. Yeah. It doesn't make a difference. If you're a ball python person and you come and you're talking to me and I get glassy, look in my eye, just assume nothing's happening and it's nothing's sinking in and I'm somewhere else. But continue talking and please call. Yeah. This is what you have to say, you know, don't say the word ball python. Just say you keep royal pythons. If you keep royal pythons, you're welcome. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Enough of us, Babylon. Let's get Mike on here. Let's get this going. He's sitting here on hold as we ramble. But Mike, welcome to morality python radio. Glad to have you. Glad you could come and hang out with us. Hey, what's going on. Can you hear me? Yeah. Yeah. You're fine. All right. All right. Good. So what's going on? We're doing the normal thing. We do on a Tuesday night and that's talking to each other and somebody else. So Mike, why don't we just go right for it. How did you get in? How did you get started in reptiles? All right. I was kind of lucky enough when I was a kid. My father was into the hobby. Pretty big. Back in the day before the ball, python morph craze. Back when, you know, just bull snakes were cool because they're cool. So when I was a kid growing up, we had a lot of stuff. A lot of colubrids. A lot of bellows. Some pythons and such. My whole basement was full. And all I did after school was spend time in the woods looking for snakes. You know, most kids were doing all those things. I was walking in the woods looking for snakes and turtles and stuff. So basically, that's how I got into it. What really got me hooked to where I started getting obsessed was we found on one herping trip, we found an eastern worm snake that looked great. So my father brought it home for me. They said, "Let's see if it leaves eggs and we'll hatch them and release them." So he set it up in like one of those little five gallon, like they used for the bed of fish, five gallon aquariums with the glass lid on top with some peat moss. And sure enough, I went to check one one day after school and there's, they're still tiny when they hatch. And there they were and ever since then I was pretty much hooked. Then I got obsessed with turtles. I kind of went through stages, which I think a lot of people do where, you know, there are one thing, so they want to keep that. Then they keep that for a little while and then they go through another stage where they like that thing until they kind of grow into the side and what really makes them go and what they're passionate about. And that's pretty much how I got to where I am today. Cool. Very cool. That's cool to, who's that? Ted Thompson, when I was, went back when he was first getting into it, he lived right over the Maryland PA line and him and my father talked a lot on the phone and my dad would, you know, include me a lot in those trips. We drive up to his farm and I was going to tell you, you know, being young like that and being crazy about reptiles, wanting to learn everything, going up to Ted's place was just amazing for me. I mean, you'd walk in and just, I mean, it's two floors. I mean, you look over to the left, there's a 9/10 foot crock monitor. Yeah, you walk into a room and, I mean, it's just, there's nothing but racks, collure bridge. It's back when he first brought some of those Carolina pygmy's up and he was showing me where he got bit, you know, showing me his thumb and we walked into a closet and you think it was a wall and there was a little handle attached to it and he'd open it up and it was a walk in incubator hidden in the wall. Geez. That was a big part of me kind of getting passionate and wanting to get into snakes myself too. So that's pretty awesome that, you know, you got into it with your dad because it's similar to like with me and, you know, I can't imagine. I mean, I'm thinking like back to 2012 when I hatched out my first, you know, snakes and how I was, it was a done deal. If I wasn't, if I wasn't addicted at that point, you know, that was a changing spot. So like to be that young and to see that, that's pretty, pretty awesome. That is awesome. So my dad's nowhere near reptiles, he would never, ever, ever, but anyway. It's a, I tell you, it is a, it's a, it's a huge bonus. So, I mean, looking back some of the memories, finding our first Eastern Kings, we would do, you know, we'd do a lot of field herping and, you know, a lot of those experiences, it's pretty cool because I get to share that with people. That's what I like doing now is to share and how it used to be. I guess that's why I kind of have that old school mind mentality still a little bit. Right. You know, today's world where when I joined Facebook, it was like, wow, this is a whole new world of herpetaculture. Everything is different. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You know, that's, uh, sorry, oh, and I keep jumping in, but, um-- Is that right? Go ahead. Um, it's, I'm sure we'll get into this at some point, but, you know, I was talking to Rob earlier and, um, we were talking about, you know, the forum and, um, how different it was, different it was. Like, you know, like, I'll tell you this experience. The other day, somebody was buying a snake from me and I went to look on my own page, on my own page for a post that I made and I couldn't goddamn find it. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I don't know. Like, when it was the forum, it just seemed like it was all in one spot and you were, I don't know. I used to get so excited to go and just, like, see what was going on and, like, who had what and, you know, I don't know. Yeah. I guess that it's a little bit of, like, enjoying the old days, but I would, I really, really wish that that would come back. I know. I'm dreaming. Yeah. I'll tell you. I'll be eating the dead horse. I'll briefly say that one of my only regrets about not getting more involved with social media and getting online and getting on forums is just that. Because when I eventually ended up getting into carpets, I was kind of, um, I kind of found and started getting on Memorialia Python forum towards the end before, you know, they had the issue with the forum and it would be saying, and, um, when I, you know, got on there, I thought, wow, you know, this is great. I can't believe I've been missing out, you know, all this time on a great forum. And they're, and they're wet. No more, you know, no more forum. No one posed. Yeah. It's like, man. And, you know, I don't know if it's just because I'm a little older and I kind of like that kind of stuff because it seems like some of the younger guys are all about Facebook and I get it because that, you know, that's, that's all they really know, to be honest, right? Yeah. Is the fast-paced, you know, face mentality, but, um, I don't know. Yeah. The, uh, the other, the other thing that I was going to say is, I forgot to say it when we were just talking, when I was just mentioning it, is that what had happened is, um, somebody is, uh, contacting me about, um, uh, poison ivy and I'm trying to get the lineage and stuff. I had the lineage, but I just want to make sure that I have this story nailed down. So, uh, I, I had talked to, uh, Jake Milbratt a while ago and, um, you know, he had just said, he had sent me, um, over to MP and he said that he put all that information there. And when I went over there, you know, I looked him up and I looked for his threads and then sure enough, like the whole story was, was right there, you know, and it's just like there are pictures of the parents. There's pictures of, uh, you know, animal that the, uh, the mother, uh, to, to poison ivy, um, as you look like in different pictures and stuff. You know, I mean, that's all stuff that's now archived there. But what's, what's the shame is that, like, you're, it's not, today, it's not accessible like that. Like, and my point is, is that I can't even get my, oh, and I, I'm pretty tech savvy, but I, I can't, I, I couldn't even find it. You know, and then when I went on my computer, then you can see it. But when you're on your phone, you can't, you know, and I get it. It's like fast pace and it's super easy. If the forum was super easy, I'm sure that people would still still use it, I guess. I don't know, you know, but I agree. I agree. It's just so much faster to, you know, hit the share button to Facebook from your phone or whatever device you're on rather than the phone. Right. You know. Yeah. Oh, unfortunately. Oh, and one of those younger guys, he doesn't understand. I'm 30. All right. I think, like, come on. Oh, and you said you're, you're 30 now. I will be in June. Okay. All right. Cool. Yeah. So you're not, you're not really a young guy anymore. No. When I, when I say young guy, I'm. Yeah. I'm really kind of referring to the, you know, lower 20s kind of newer into, into the hobby guy. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm going to be 42 this Saturday. So. Damn. Oh, and young guy to me. We're looking for. Yeah. We're trying to find a good retirement home to put air again. I'm still looking. I got to find a nice one for him with lots of ramps. So. Hey, you know. Yeah. I, I thought you were around my age. I'll be 40. So you got me by a couple of years here. I still look like I'm in my 20s though. According to. That's good thing. Yeah. Yeah. I don't feel like it. Hey. Well, it's, it's whatever. So Mike, when you, like, how did you get into Morelli? Was it just poking around the forum or did you kind of have that one defining moment? Well. All right. So the first, well, I'll be honest with you. Over the years. Of keeping. I always liked, you know, Morelliaplythons and everything. But I, particularly, I liked carpet playthons. And of course, when I would see jungles, the contrast and everything. I always said to myself, you know, I'd like to work with them one day. So I had produced some Northern Pines. And so one that wanted some offered me a coastal carpet plaython. And it was a yearling. And it was a good looking snake. So I said, hey, you know, why not? So I ended up changing them and getting that coastal. And similar to you guys. I ran into Mr. Allen himself. And he persuaded me to, yeah. He persuaded me to take some animal foam. And it just started from there. Basically. And being that photo, remember the photo they posted in Reptile's magazine? Yes. The world area tiger jagged when they did the pairing at all. Seeing that photo, you know, I said to myself, I have to have that snake. Yeah. It started with started. Started how it got into Moralia. So of course, the Somalia kind of branched off of that with the scrub playthons and everything. Is that the main focus of your collection? Can you kind of give us a little overview of your collection? Yeah. Right now, um, working with mainly the iJs, coastal and jungles. I pretty much have every, you know, I have tiger jags, tigers, caramel, super caramels, reds. Kind of a little bit of everything when it comes to coastal. I'm just honestly focusing on selective breeding right now with those. I have a lot of things going on. I mean, I could be here forever to tell you what I'd like to do as far as focus. But for right now, I'm just going to focus on what I've been doing with the super caramel stuff. In 2018, I have a lot of stuff that should be, you know, up to side. And I'll be doing a lot of pairings that I haven't really, you know, shared on Facebook or anything. But other than that, I'll be honest. I'm really passionate about selective breeding jungles. I see what Chris does consistently over there, head on. And, you know, that's where I want to be. I want to be able to consistently produce knockout jungles. They just, um, I just don't think there's anything that could beat it. You know? Yeah. This year, I'm currently in the market for jungles. So, like, the research for pairings and stuff and see who has what and, you know, all that kind of stuff. And, you know, it's really, like, amazing. Like, well, two things I always think of, and I've said it before, but the one thing is, like, how far jungles have come with the selective breeding. And, you know, I mean, we're talking about animals that are just insane. Like, you know, and it just keeps me focused on the other carpets and where their potential can be, you know? I mean, yeah. Yep. Yep. So, I think you're on the right path, you know? Yeah. I also, um, the IJ, I saw the IJ as you posted earlier. Um, wow. Poster child? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I saw the follow-up photo of the wild caught from Nick. And, um, the group of wild caught IJs I have, I saw their parents before they were, they actually perished in a hellfire. Mm-hmm. And, but I did see them, and that was the main reason why I wanted to be able to get some of those animals. Uh, the potential, I think, is there to bring out that nice, light color that we all like. And the female wild caught was completely striped. So, I'm hoping that, you know, maybe I can select a breed for some pattern and then bring out some color and then maybe out cross them into, you know, an already established line, like a poster child for, uh, you know, one of those lines. Right. Yeah. You know, similar for me is like back in those days, seeing that animal, seeing, you know, poster child. And then poster child offspring was kind of like what steered me in the direction. Because it's like, it's even with that picture, I mean, he's going into a shed in that picture, which is crazy. Right. You know, but like I had the light tensed that up today, so I figured, you know, why not? Let's just get a picture. And, uh, I've wanted one of those animals for, for, I can't tell you how long and, you know, like a few years ago, the opportunity, you know, presented itself. So I would be a fool to like not, not have taken it, but the cool thing with IJs is there's three colors with jungles. There's two, you know, you got yellow and black, but with, with IJs, you got brown, black, you know, you got, and like this tan and like turns into maybe yellow, depending on, you know, which ones you're working with. But, yeah, there's tons of potential there, man. Absolutely. One thing I'll say, and, and, you know, I'm sure you guys have seen this too in your IJs, the wild caught group I have, when the sun goes down, they are so lavender at night compared to during the daylight. It's really impressive how it looks compared, even from light day. Yeah. And there's times when I'll go in at night and look at them and I just can't believe how good they look. Yeah. It's like a different snake sometimes, you know, you're like, what? Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I'm only saying is I have two IJs and none of mine are wild caught. So, I'll just agree. Well, I recently, again, another opportunity presented itself to get a 2.2 group of captive hatched, which to me is basically wild caught. Pretty much. IJs. So, you know, that should be pretty cool. You know, I mean, it's the only carpet that we can get from the wild. I don't know. But I think, you know, with my mindset with that was why not just get my own blood, you know, instead of going and just starting out with animals that people have already put a lot of work into. I wanted to kind of spark from scratch. I kind of like, yeah, my projects from the ground offing and just taking my time and seeing where they'll take me. You know, that's the point of it to me. Yeah. That would be fun. Well, I definitely see that in like in your animals. Like, I can, I don't know, just from seeing like the ones you post up, it seems like you're very selective on, you know, the animals. The animals that you're picking out for your collection and like there's a, there's a specific end goal or, you know, something you have in your mind of, of what you, you know, what that snake will hope to be at some point. So that's cool. Yes, absolutely. So, as far as jungles, I mean, what's your, you know, you're saying that that selectively, is there a specific lineage you're working with or, you know, even if it look, you're looking for the wild, crazy ones, classic, well, all the other. Yeah, I kind of have a few different looks going on with the offspring that I've produced. One, remind you of the futone-like, like wild tipping. Right. Crazy kind of head pattern and it really looks fantastic. So, I kind of have some perfect animals to keep that going. And then I also have the typical highlighter look, jungles. Okay. So, you know, I'm kind of selectively going to match up different animals that look similar and try to try to just make them better, to be honest. See where, see what I can do with it. Because I do, I like the futone look where you have a lot of tipping, but clean. You know, it has to have, I don't know, there's just a certain look to it. You guys know what I mean about being clean with tipping. Yep. You can have an animal that has crazy tipping, but it's not a dirty looking jungle. And then I also like animals that have a deep velvety black and thin banded jungles. I'm crazy about thin banded jungles. I think that's probably my favorite. Yeah. So, I'm kind of, yeah, I'm kind of working on a few different looks, if you will. Awesome. Yeah, the, you know, I like to me a jungle is in the black to me. Like, you know, the yellow can be, you know, it can be buttery yellow. It can be super, you know, blind your eyes yellow. It can be, you know, all these different looks as far as the yellow goes. But that black has to be super clean and like, you know, just dark, dark, deep velvety black. You know, to me that makes it like pop, you know. I agree. I agree. I think a lot of people focus with the yellow a lot of times, you know, it's like, you know, they forget about the black. But yeah. Yeah, I agree. I'm working. You did ask about lineage. I'm working with some shoe it animals. Oh, sweet. And I asked. Excuse me. I said, oh, sweet. They're like the best. Yeah. It's, unfortunately, it's lineage is half shoe it. And then the other half is great valley serpentarium. But yeah. I was able to trace it all the way back to the founding animals too. So that was a good thing for that. I talked to Jason about those animals when I originally got them. And supposedly the founding jungles for that line had something to do with the same animals Jason got for the tigers. Apparently they came from the same guy. Well, which is name of it all. Oh, Neville James. Yeah. Neville James. Yeah, that's it. So because right away when I when I mentioned that to him, he knew right away who, you know, as far as where there's animals originated from. So did some homework and I was able to even get a picture of one of the founder animals. Wow. That's awesome. Yeah. You don't really hear jungles. The lineage of TV has any more great valley serpentarium. At least I don't know. You know, you don't hear it quite often. So, you know, I was pretty excited to get some of those. Well, to get jungles from that lineage. I have hair animals, python peat. I have, I did end up getting a really nice animal from Howard. Yeah. To add into my group. It was a plane line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The undocumented planes line. Right. UWP. Yep. Yep. He picked so many people off when he ran into white planes, just bought those things. I mean, yeah. I saw them. I'm pretty sure. Herton saw them there. Every time I see a jungle, I like somehow Howard buys it before I get there. And it's like, so it's, you know, now I'm just going to mention just a buy shit from Howard. So, see, here's where I'm pouring a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. You probably, you know where I'm going with this. I do, but I kind of want to hear you. Yeah. All right. What happened? That, the male I got from Howard, K, it was kind of an accident. Which they all seem to be. I accidentally acquired a new animal. Yeah. I dropped money and then someone hated me. Well, then I feel a little kind of bad. I like to tell myself he forced me to take it, but that happened. I was a little bit leery because I do like to, you know, I'm kind of a stickler for lineage now. I kind of enjoy being able to trace back, you know, where my animals originate from. So that, you know, I don't want to be a guy that a few years from now. I'm saying, I'm not sure. Trust me, they're pure. So I was a little bit leery about getting that animal. But I did take it and then it was right around the age where they really start to color up. So after a few sheds after I had it, it color up really nice. So I was glad, you know, I'd gotten it. I just, um, I don't know what I'm going to hair to in the future because of it being the UWP. Right. In the back of my mind. Yeah. So you just go get a female UWP and then just be like, all right. Now you two are over there. And there's the wake up line. Yup. Over there. Yeah. Well, yeah. I don't. Go ahead. I was just going to say, you could always, I'm sorry. Go ahead. I was just going to say, um, that, uh, I don't want to take that animal and put it to animals I can trace back. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Right. But after, after a couple seasons of Cross and Shoot was shoot, maybe you're like, nah, screw it. And you want to throw him to her just for one season. But in the meantime, if you had another undocumented white plane flying, he could still go over there and produce some really nice jungles of that line. So, yeah. If anything, I just made a sale for Howard. So. I think that. Thank me. I think that if you ever stumble upon something similar, you know, like say you're at a reptile show and, you know, like Howard stumbled upon those animals. You know, I'm sure that there might be some killer. You know, every once in a while, you see these killer carpets pop up and you're like, yeah, I don't know. Is that a, is it, is it this? Is it that? You know, you could always just sort of, uh, use that as sort of that type of project, you know, like it's like how I do the citrus tigers, you know, the one animal in the citrus tiger lineage is like, you know, sold as a jungle, but everybody says it's a coastal. And, you know, then you got the high contrast Queensland. Is that, are they jungle coastal or are they, you know, you don't, you know, this is what it is. And then, you know, you also have the stuff that, you know, you know, this is what this is. So. Yeah. Well, that's, um, that's the approach I'll probably, you all I know I'll take with it. Um, you know, as long as you're up front with, you know, where it came from. And, and like you said, Owen, though, I mean, eventually down the line. I mean, you know, a few generations down the line. I seriously don't think too many people, um, you know, as far as when I let offspring go are going to have a problem with, you know, the issues. Oh, hey, you know, so we'll see. Yeah. It's kind of like everything. Do you guys think that, uh, do you guys see that's, like, it seemed like years ago that, you know, being pure or not pure was like a make or break situation for a lot of people. And it seems like it's moved away from that a little bit. Like, you know, you have, you have guys that, that, that are strictly, you know, pure. And this is what we do. And, you know, we don't cross anything. And, you know, it's almost like you know where to go if you want to get that. But I very rarely, maybe it's because people know what I do, you know, but I never have people really ask me that question, you know. Yeah. I don't know. Well, well, I think what, and I think Mike's the exact same way, and you're the section where Eric is like, I have my projects that appear and then I have my projects that are pure. But ever once in a while, like a bug will gnaw at my brain about what the offspring between that one and that one would, would look like. Now, as long as both those animals have projects that I really, really, really wanted to be in, that crossing will never happen. But a couple of generations down the line after I've done all my readings, and those two animals are free because their children are now old enough in breeding, and they're continuing on the projects that I want them to be involved with, that those little thing that was gnawing at my brain is now starting to really, really get in there, and I cross them anyway, just to see what happens. But there's a difference between your projects that you want to keep pure and the stuff you're doing just to see, like for fun or, you know, just to see what might happen. So, like, who's not to say that somewhere down the line after Mike has done so many shoe at crosses, it's ridiculous, that his shoe at boy or girl is sitting out there, and the white plane's line boy is sitting out there, and they both have children that are now continuing to breed and continue to line, and he's like, "Ah, screw it. He chucks them together." And he might be really, really happy with what comes out. So, I say don't limit yourself, and as long as you are upfront with what it is, go ahead, knock yourself out. But I prefer pure stuff, didn't that just mean that I built most of my projects? So, I'm more like you, Owen. I'm more on that side of the fence, but I like all of it. You know, I like everything. Just for me and my projects, I like staying pure. You know, I mean, I do have one project that is high percentage jungle jags, and it's the ocelot stuff, but besides that, I have your mindset, Owen, when it comes to that stuff. For me, you know, that's what I like. That doesn't mean that I think anybody that's, you know, doing all these crazy, you know, more breeding and crossing some species like, "Do you?" You know? Yeah. Do you boo boo? Yeah. Yeah. Do you boo boo? Exactly. I mean, it doesn't bother me at all. I mean, some of those animals are just so beautiful. Yeah. Everybody draws a line in different places where somebody like, I have my male max, and it's like somebody, where somebody would be like, "I can chuck you, move the carpet pipe on." "Oh God, oh dear Lord, I burned those eggs the second they popped out." So, it's like, you know, there's certain things you don't cross, and I don't cross chucking hybrids together. I probably will never read my brettles to anything else other than a brettle. Same thing goes on Iceland. But, you know, certain jungle coals I've been listening to the harvest for far too long, and he's gotten into my brain now. It's funny, you know, because when you look at my collection, like, I have more pure stuff than I do crosses. You know? I have 35 IJs, just 35 IJs alone. You know what I mean? So, it's like, I don't know. It's weird. But, now, I think both things are important. You know, I think, like, the more side of it, whether it's true or not true, or not true, or fortunate or unfortunate, I think it draws people in. It gets people's attention, you know, and they get excited about this or that or whatever. It seems like once they sort of get into it and sort of get settled in and sort of learn about carpet pythons, then they start to seek out, you know, that pure stuff, you know, and the cool thing is, is that, you know, I mean, there's so many different subsets that you can choose from, and they all look different. So, like, you know, if you're into this, you go, you know, you made, like, diamond pythons, you know, jungles, IJs, coastal, binlands, you know, it's just like, you know, whatever suits your fancy. Yes. So, but it's important to keep doing that stuff, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I don't understand how, you know, some people will say, I don't know. It just cobbles my mind sometimes when I hear someone say, I'm in the carpets, but I'm not into coastal. Aww. I think to myself, and I think to myself, there's every flavor, you know, that you would probably want in coastal, how can you say, say, I'm in the carpets, and you have IJs sitting at, you know, at home. And you're not into coastal, I mean, there's red carp, you know, I mean, there's so much variation. I mean, even in one watch, there's so much variation. I mean, it's just like, how can you not, I don't know. Yeah, unfortunately, coastal's kind of get a bad rap, you know? I think, for whatever reason, they're just kind of like the, you know, it's going to be, you know what I think will change that? Brisbane's. I think once they, once, you know, I think Nick, Nick and Paul did an awesome job at getting that, because that line was almost lost. Yeah. Yeah. You know, now, now it's, it's back, and like some of the animals that Nick has are just insane, and like, I have a trio of them, and I could, I could easily just, and they all look different. And I could easily just work with those and, and be content with coastal's, because they really are. And, and the fact that they get a little bit bigger, you know, is pretty cool. You know, so I think once, once that starts, you know, when people start seeing them more, you know, in a few years, I think, I think people might start paying attention a little bit, you know. But, yeah, definitely. That is a beautiful locality, but go ahead, I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, yeah, man, it really is. And it's, it's, it's a shame, because you can't really, I don't know, pictures don't do them justice, and mine ain't even, shit, there's still babies, you know. But I was curious when you, when you were talking about you have reds and you have caramels, you know, what's your thoughts on the, on, on those two in particular? Do you ever think of, of, of crossing them? What do you think they would look like if they're crossed? Is that a no no? No, you, you, you, you, you, just me, I knew where you were going with it. Yeah, yeah. No, man, it's over. I, I, yeah. That is one thing that I cringe when I see, when I get online and I see someone, someone did it, I can't remember, and I'm not going to mention names. If I do remember. Right. But I saw a post online, and I forget what it was. It was red tiger to a caramel or something, and he got a, you know, and then you have the difficulties of knowing what's what. And this and that, I mean, it's hard enough to know, I mean, you, you don't even know when you, you might think something's a super, and it doesn't prove out to be a super with caramel. Yeah. That's just the way that it's expressed. It's so difficult to visually pick everything out if you were to do that. Yeah. And then, then you have knuckleheads that all, you know, buy animals and, and throw them together, start trying to sell animals and say these are this, this and that, and then it gets lost. And then, yeah. And here's the thing is what, and going to the last Hamburg show, somebody came up to my table asking why nobody has ever bred red to caramel, and I said they have. Because you have to hold the clutch on for almost a year before everything colors up so you can tell what's caramel, what's red. And it's almost like this guy would not be discouraged because he ended up going and talking to several other people about what to do about the red and the caramel and it's like, am I talking to myself here? So it's one of those things that I think you could do, but I don't think you have to do. It's like the reds themselves, look at Jason's reds, what he's done with the reds and where he's going with the reds. Like I said, I have, Jason's got two more generations before I seriously buy a bunch of red animals from him. Just straight up reds because, and I would only breed those reds to each other because I don't want to do anything else with them. And you look at reds with the caramel, there's no reason to cross those two. Those things are branching away from each other at such drastic rates. You'd be going, taking steps backwards if you were to breed them together. I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second. So, my feeling is this, is that a lot of times in the world, well, no, yeah, I know right, whenever I start with that. A lot of times in the world, in the world of reptiles, again, listening back to our past episodes and thinking five years ago that I was somewhat knowledgeable about, you know, carpet pythons and listening now, you know, five years later, thinking, you know, so where am I going to be in another five years? So, I guess my point is that, to me, that would be a clutch or a pairing that you would do to see what happens. You know, because we talk a lot about that it would be this or it would be that. But we don't know. You know what I'm saying? You don't know. Like, I can sit here and say that, you know, yeah, that's not going to work or this is going to, that gene shouldn't produce this and this is this, you know, but we don't know for sure. And I think the problem that I would have is that if somebody did it, and then they sold them as caramels or super like, let's just say that, for instance, that they kind of work together, right? And let's say that they make this insanely red or insanely, like super caramel looking animal, and then somebody goes and sells them as super caramels. Well, that's, that's different. You know, I have a problem with that. You know, because you're misrepresenting the animals. But to me, I don't know. I just don't see it any different than breeding, you know, an undocumented jungle to a jungle just to see what happens. I mean, you know, what's the difference? Oh, man, there was a lot of silence after that talk. A lot of shit different. I'm going to get beat up on this one. I know you're damn it. I'm on my way to your house right now. Oh, man. I'm not saying that. Everybody listening to you, Eric, and next, you know, next year, we're going to see all these red to caramel pairings going on. Yeah, I personally would do it, and I don't necessarily think it's a good idea. But the point I'm trying to drive home is that it seems like in the reptile world, especially on the Facebook reptile world, we talk in definitive terms all the time, when in reality, we really don't know. And unless you do it, you don't know, you know what I'm saying? You don't know. Like, shit, I would do it. Maybe I should do it, and then feed them all to the blackhead. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And nobody would want to hear that. Everybody would be pissed off. Oh, my God. I can't believe you said it to a blackhead. I don't know. I totally get where you're coming from, and I'll mention this. I've discussed, and it has crossed my mind. Doing hearing like that. I discussed it with someone, and doing that pairing, and not really sharing, you know, that we're doing that pairing, and seeing what the results were, and possibly using that for, let's just say, to help color up another morph. Okay. Without really sharing the results until we knew what we were going to get, because we don't really know. The idea, though, has been there. So, you know, I don't ever want to do it, but if it came to thinking that if we did that, then the results would make something look better if it was a morph project. I don't see what the big deal would be. It's like saying, "Here's a caramel," or "exantic," but you'd have to say it's a red caramel. I just get worried that the animals are going to, you know, get confused, and there will be someone. There will. I can guarantee. If it will be more than one, you've seen these types. At the local shows, I know. There will be people that aren't going to represent them right. No. That's the problem with that, for me. So, probably where, probably why my perspective is different is because I'm not often at that local show, you know? So, like, you know what I mean? My interactions with carpet people are like with you guys, or with Nick, or with Jason, or with Howard, or with these, you know, these guys, or Mike Kurt, or whoever, you know, and it's like, you know, if you did that, this is what, like, that would be, that would be a pairing that I would almost do just to do it and not tell anybody that I was doing it. And here I result, and then a year later when the animals are grown up, and, you know, you've held on to them, and this is whatever, when somebody's running their mouth on Facebook about this is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, here you go. This is, this is what happens. Either it's a train wreck, or you're not going to be able to tell, or maybe you will be able to tell, but, you know, I'm just saying, like, it's not like you're crossing subspecies. You're just sort of losing the morph, and like, yeah, I don't know, it just seems, I don't know. It's just the mindset of like, that there's more pointless. Like, yeah, but it seems pointless because you don't know it. It's kind of like with diamonds and jungles. I mean, breeding the diamond to a jungle seems pointless until you do it. It seems, like you said, it's like creating a stripe to a bended animal. It's like you've now defeated the purpose of both of them, where you will easily just take the stripe and breed this right. Do not bring up your freakin tigers, or I will check this out. Well, that's my point. That's exactly my point. That's my point. If I have a bended animal. Stop speaking my good arguments with your facts. And you breed it to a striped animal, and then all of a sudden, all of them are striped. I walked right into this. Yeah, exactly. God damn it. God damn it. I don't know what happened with that parry. Yeah. You're gonna do it live. This is all fantastic. I know. That's pissed me off. It's like, I'm gonna breed tigers in an albino. I'm like, oh, good, so it'll be ugly. Look, I got old tricks. God damn it. It's like, in the universe, we're going to favor like, please. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I think that's the way to go about it, though, is if someone is going to do it, to do it in-house first, see what you have. You know, like you said, Eric, hold on to them, and then maybe share your results. And if it's different than what all of us claim to say they're going to be, then, you know, go from there. It's not. Can it. Stop building it. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's not the way it's going to be. It's going to be somebody who buys a red, and somebody who buys a caramel, probably not the best representations of either more and chucks them together. Okay. I'll give you another. Go ahead, Owen. Well, it's about to be mediocre. They're just going to sell them all as coastal. Right. To me, like, if you're, that's another part of that, that point. If you're going to do that, you know, and I did sell them, you know, like, hey, listen, by the way, I'm going to sell these. This is a coastal carpet python. These were the parents, you know, they're just really cool, look, and coastal carpet python. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The problem, the problem with that, though, in playing devil's advocate myself is it's like, yeah, you can represent your animals. 100%. Yeah. It's what happens after you get rid of them. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you know, how people are going to use it, any of people are going to use it as an angle to try to sell it. Like, we were talking about me and my love of teamwork. Recently. Somebody in you. Somebody. Thank you. Somebody else. Somebody posted up a pair, and they're not listening to Miss Timor's. They were calling them like. Some, like, something weird. Like, I've never heard them call this before. Like, let's say Sudan. Let's say Sudan. Yeah. Let's say Sudan. Python. Yeah. And they listed them as that. And I know this is just what I just made this. They're super rare. Of course, he says that they're down in their four more ads for Timor Python. So, by adding them as less or Sudan, now I stick out. And some for schmuck. It's going to be like, oh my God, these are different than others in bio. And it's like, no, somebody who used the fact that they're a caramel red. Never been done before. Completely different. Totally new for. To try to sell. Yeah. That's it. That's marketing. My Facebook. My Facebook feed would blow up for 48 hours. The carpet people will say very nasty things to each other. And then it'll all be kind of hell. We'll talk about it on Tuesday and it'll all be forgotten by Saturday. Yeah. Before we leave the whole caramel red debacle. One piece. Yeah, it just drives me nuts. When I'm talking to someone and someone says that caramel is ugly, but I love red. It drives me nuts because I think either you're looking at low quality caramel because look at a nice caramel, in my opinion, it's just as nice as a nice red. They look very similar, but different. Oh yeah. If you get my breath. Yeah, I think like a. I mean, it's like saying I hate albinos, but sun glows are gorgeous. It's like, wait, wait. It's like, you take the color a little bit and you hate it. It's like, that is stupid. So. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know either. I can. I would say, I would say that that to me is what the one thing I noticed with Facebook in particular is that it's sort of fractured the, on the good side of it, I mean, we've talked about this before. On the good side of it is that you get to talk to people that you probably never would have talked to outside of your little world, you know, outside of your little bubble. And on the bad side of it is that, you know, that that little bubble is now fractured to where it seems like there's all these teams. It seems like this, no matter what the, what the situation is. I mean, you could be talking about music. You know, you could be talking about it. It's just like I'm on this team and you're on that team. And for some reason, if I like reds, you can't like caramels. You know what I mean? It's just like, yeah, it's just a weird mindset, you know, and I'm with you, man. And they're both cool, you know? Exactly. Like people assume, because I've read caramels, that I absolutely must like throw things to Jason Bailin, which I do, but for different reasons. But, you know, it's, and when people are like, when people are, I'm sitting there and I'm like, man, one more year, I'm going to buy a bunch of reds from Jason to go like, why? I'm like, so I can have reds. I like reds. I have red tigers. I have red jags. I would like, but I bought into the reds when they were like the first things out of the eggs. So, you know, Jason is so much more with them. I want better looking ones. So it's like, you know, people are shy to do that. And I can appreciate the reds and I can appreciate the caramels. So it's, yeah, I'm just excited. Like battle lines. Yeah, I'm just excited for, uh, for the, you know, my reds as I am for the caramels stuff. Um, you know, I mean, those extreme reds that Jason produced, they, you know, there's a great looking animals. Um, so I'm hoping maybe next year to be able to get lucky enough to maybe hatch a couple of those out, I ended up getting some animals from him that are related to the animals that produce those, I believe. So. And it's funny that that red, that red stuff from him pops up with the wood. It pops up in the weirdest places like I bought a redjack from him that the father was the same one as all the red tigers. Right. And I've mixed it. I've done it. We're now on the third gen cause like, uh, I've read them and produced the one male. And now that male has produced his own offspring. And I have a red tiger that I hatched out here that is like creamy, whitish and red. And I'm like, where did you come from? And you can never get to leave. So it's like, that is awesome. I would love to take her and cross it to one of his really nice bright red boys to start moving that forward. And that's the project I'm excited about. Of course, I said on the other hand, Eric and I were talking about super caramel tigers earlier. And oh, God, help me if I ever hatch more than one of those cause I'm going to fall. So I personally think that the, uh, I think that the red is going to make a nicer, um, ghost. I mean, I shouldn't say now Eric's lost me. It's over. You have ruined the dream. So I think that the red, like the red animals, if you look at like Jason's adults. They seem to have this sort of, they seem to have more of a. Like a, like a, like if you're looking at ball pythons, like a, like an orange ghost type of look, like they're in shed type of thing. Whereas car moles, like, okay. So if I look at like some of the best in the States, I'd probably have to go with like maybe Nick. Um, they have like that yellow, they're, they're, they're like gold. Right. So like to me, I don't know if you already have that sort of hypo look going on. I think that, that they're just going to, like when you make a red. Exantic, you know, it is a coastal. Oh, and so you don't have to jump off the roof. It's not the end of the world. Why don't we just do caramel red. Exantic. There you go. I did just do that. Caramel Jackson, please again. Cross it with a rock Hampton and then we'll throw some other shit in there. Mm hmm. He's got a guy that agrees with him on the show. And now all of a sudden he's got, he's like, yeah, he's like all cocky and all like. He's not cocky. He's like, yeah, Aaron. Let's move inside the Frankenstein just because you feel the docket with people. That doesn't mean that my needs are any less. I say good drinking, sir. I love it all, man. I love it all. I have love for everything. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I do too. I do too. I just, you know, I just don't work on projects like you do with the more and all. The more the pure guy, the locality type guy. Right. But I do. I like all of it. I enjoy all of it. I enjoy, you know, learning about all that stuff. Seeing everyone's animals or hatch now. And it doesn't mean I won't ever jump into that. You know, I mean, I can see myself maybe certain things, like I said. Exanic granite jags. Yep. Mr. Olde here, that thing. That thing's beautiful. Yeah. You know, so it's not to say I won't ever have projects like that. You know, I just like sitting back and kind of looking at everyone else's right now. Yeah. Yeah. I can get with that. You know, it's definitely, you know, you want all these different things. And it's like you can only do so much. I think, you know, that's one of the things that I do like about you and your collection. Like, is that you seem very focused, which seems to have brought you really good results. You know what I'm saying? Like, I see a lot of times like a lot of people will. I may even be guilty of this when I first started out. Quiet, Owen. Is that like you're trying to. I'd say a damn thing. You're just trying to, you know, get this, get that, get this, get that, and you have no real sense of focus with a project or like selective breeding animals. And you sort of like lose time where somebody else is like, they specifically, I think, Chris is from headhunters or like this, you know, I mean, I'm sure at some point they could have jumped into morph carpets, but they stayed the course and look at, you know what I mean? Look at where they've come now from where jungles used to be. I mean, I would say hands down, would you say that they're not probably the best jungles in the states? I mean, yeah, I think so. And the consistency year after year, you know. I mean, they've so worked on a project to get it so specific that it seems that they're animals, you know, throw consistent results. You know, some people could get two smokers, two bee grades and the rest of shit, you know. Right. How often do you see when they post a jungle up? You don't ever see it and say, hey, it's okay. You're like, yeah, I can like struggle. Yeah. And I find myself, whatever I see a post from thinking, yeah, I mean, that's, it doesn't get much better, a lot of those animals are really, really nice. That's sort of like, yeah, that's sort of like, like when I was talking to them or saw them, my idea was to do that, but do that with IJs, you know. That's why I have the collection of IJs that I have. So like a few years from now, like, yeah, I'll have morphs and I'll have this, but like, people are going to say, man, his IJs are killer, you know. You want a really nice IJ, you know, you go to Eric, you know, or that's, that's kind of the, you know, my hope, you know what I mean? I can only hope that I can get there, but. Yeah. That's a project of yours that interests me a lot. I'd like to really get more into that with the IJs and really focus on those a lot more too, because I'm with you, I think the potential is huge. Yeah. They're smaller. There's nothing like, you know, looking at all my carpets. For some reason, IJs have these big, bulky heads that are just like, they're just so impressive to me. I mean, I don't know. It's almost like their head doesn't fit their body. There's a tiny body, you know, where you think this big coastal's behind it, but I don't know. Yeah. We'll hope. Hopefully. So, uh, wow, man, we didn't even need questions. I know, right? We just, we're talking and we're just, we're good to go. Yeah. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to veer off the questions for a second, and I know that you guys are, are, you know, you guys are like really kind of selective breeding, but you do work with some morphs and stuff. Mike, what's your feelings on when it comes to combos as far as like, you know, okay, let's take caramel jag or red jag or red tiger. Are you a fan of naming it what it is? Or are you in this mindset that it should be called something like, you know, bubblegum jag or something like that? It's a mobile. Yeah. I did see the post on the carpet discussion group. Yep. Yeah. About this topic. To me personally, you know, I really don't care. I do what I do, you know, I study my animals, I learn from my animals. And here's my thoughts on it. I think that if people want to do that, that's fine, but I think the people that have some type of education about carpets and the genetics, they're going to know what a nickname is. They're going to know what genetics that is. So, when someone says marble, you know, we know what it is, and someone says sun glow, we know that's a caramel albino. The problem is newer people, you know, they might not understand what that is. But they can always ask, I mean, they have to educate themselves. To me, it really doesn't make a difference at all, honestly. I really don't have an opinion about it. I did think about that and read that topic. And that's why I really didn't respond because, you know, it really doesn't make a difference to me. Right. You know, I like saying, I'm working on a ghost project. I know what a ghost project is, you know. Right. It doesn't mean that everyone will, but, you know, we're here to teach, you know, spread the word about carpet. So, people that want to learn what things are, they're going to figure it out. So, if people want to name combos, you know, nicknames, then, you know, I'm fine with it. Yeah, I think my feeling is, is that I'm kind of with you. It doesn't make one difference to me, one way or the other. You know, I guess I don't want it to be, I guess, some stupid name that I have to say every time that, you know what I mean? Like some, you know, it has to be somewhat, I think, I think the problem for me is that when you're coming, you have a lot, I think I said this on the post, but you have a lot of people that are coming from either boas or ball pythons that are like taking an interest in carpets. And, you know, they're sort of, you know, coming from the idea that, you know, a ghost is these specific traits. The other, the other kink in the hose for me is, what do you do with the, again, back to the red caramel thing? You know, eventually, hypo will get here, you know, hypocostals will become, you know, available. Then you have red, and then you have caramel. So does the sun glows all of a sudden, because they were made with caramel, not, they're not sun glows anymore? Do these become true sun glows? You know what I mean? Like, as a ghost, they're like, this is a true ghost, like, I don't know. And I've thought about this and I've had this discussion, because it's almost like, and I'm of the school of, if it's something brand new, completely new morph, then it can get a name. If it's a combination, then call it what it is. I know the names are going to get really, really long and really, really stupid, but you got to call it what it is. So, it's like with the silver pepper. The silver pepper was a brand new thing, so we call it silver pepper. In the next few years, they're going to be silver pepper jags, silver pepper del binos, silver pepper, this, and the other thing. They don't get a new name just because there's a new morph added to the combo of the silver pepper. That's the way it is, in my opinion. And it's gotten to the point now where, if I am making caramel head exanics, I'm calling them caramel head exanics. I'm not calling them head ghosts, because, like Eric said, hypos will get here. And I fully believe that the hypo exanics or ghosts will look different than the caramel exanics. There could be some overlap where a really, really good-looking caramel exanic looks a lot like mediocre hypo exanics. So, it's like you got to call it what it is. Otherwise, there is going to be some confusion later down the road where it's like, well, this is a ghost, but so is this. But which one was the hypo involved? Yeah, it is going to be very tough. So, the caramel exanic, the caramel exanic. If it's a hypo, then you can call it a ghost. But it does sound so much better when you say ghost tigers. It's just going back to your colon and see more or less, or whatever the hell you were calling it. So, don't make me start calling animals that come out of the road to hippopotamus, because I will. And then I will ruin everybody's lives. That's cool. It won't be confusing. Yeah. I think you're right, though, Mike. I think that there's not enough people. Well, I shouldn't say that there's not enough. But it just seems like to me that people don't research like they used to, maybe because of Facebook. Maybe it's difficult to research. Maybe I see a lot of people post a lot of times, like, where can I go to learn about carpopitons? And where can I, you know what I mean? Whereas I guess maybe we take for granted that we had a forum and that there was a place where you could go and spend hours. You know, if there was a topic that you, you know, like the tiger for instance, I mean, there's a what? 45 page thread on the ancestry of the tigers, you know? Yeah. Here's something to think about about the comment you just said about people not doing research, okay? Nowadays with the younger people, they pretty much Google everything. How many times are you getting on Facebook? Do you see someone like you just said posting a group, "Hey, I'm getting ready to get this snake." What size change do I put on me? Oh, for the long walk. How often do I see them? It just seems to me that it's laziness. Yes. I don't know. Which is why the forums aren't popular because, you know, it's like, it's this mentality. And, you know, I don't necessarily blame young people. It's just that this is what they know. It's immediate satisfaction, whereas, you know, like, you just react to something. It is. You don't have any chance to think about it or whatever. It's just like it pops on your phone and, you know, I mean, I don't know. It just seems like when, I don't know. In the earlier days for me, when I was getting into carpets, you know, it's like, you didn't have that right at your side. So, like, you know, I was super excited to come home from work and be like, "Oh, shit. I got to get on the forum and see what was going on." You know, like, what's happening today? Or, you know, who hatched out water? You know, I don't know. It just, it seemed like that from those days, there was, like, people that did pairings and you would watch the whole process. And, like, you know, I remember Luke, Luke would post up, like, you know, "Hey, this is my I.J. pairing." And, like, you would walk through the whole season with them right on the thread. You would see when they locked and you would see when the, it's just like, it doesn't flow like that on the way it is on Facebook, you know? I mean, on Facebook, it's all broken up, you know? It's more, it's less information, I think, on Facebook. It seemed like, on the forums, you would get a lot more details, you know, more discussion about, you know, whatever it is that's being posted. All the days, it just seems like it's more or less, this is this animal, you know, produced last year, and I'm guilty of the same thing on Facebook. It just doesn't seem like there's a lot of people discussing the animals as much. It seems like it's more of a lot of check this off on the animal out. People like it. Or say, "Hey, that's cool." And that's all you really find out. Let someone really poke some fries about, you know? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. The new day, the way it is nowadays, I guess, you know? So imagine me, I mean, it took me, I didn't get on Facebook, because it was December, I think, 2012, almost 2013, but I finally was talked into getting on here. And actually, a few people told me, you know, just get on there and use it as a tool. And, you know, it's a great tool for meeting people, and for doing what we do, but there's also a lot of things that I don't like to see. And like you said, Eric, I do sense that there's, you know, like a fractured community. It seems like, you know, you have Pick of the Week, which, to me, that's kind of always been like our main little spot to coast. And, you know, then you'll have someone start another group that doesn't like what's been going on in enough, you know? For instance, and this is not to change also carpets, but David means has scrub plate cons. Well, the guy with one air started buying up a whole bunch of scrubs, and David was giving them some information that he had asked about. And I think he didn't really like David's, you know, comment or whatever. So he goes and starts another group. And now I see in his group, I'm seeing people that are getting into scrubs, asking him information, and he's not experienced. They should be in a group where, you know, guys with years of experience are on there and can really help them out and give them correct info. And, you know, I think that's a big thing why it's kind of like a divide. There's never like just one age, one group that everyone, you know, kind of stays with. Yeah, I would almost be happy if like, you know, if MP sort of moves to Facebook, you know what I mean? Even if that was the case, you know, like this is, to me, it wouldn't even matter, but it just seems like that, you know, of course, there's certain people for whatever reason. It's like they're anti-Marelia pick of the week. All right, okay. So they go and they have this other group. You know, one of the things that like I still to this day, like when Jason put together, Marelia, et cetera, to me, the idea was, and maybe I'm wrong, but I understand Jason is saying, like, hey, we do these carpets, but you know, there's other stuff that we're into. Here's a spot where you can go and post this up. You know, we've never been like really hawkish about people like posting other stuff on pick of the week. But, you know, I mean, you'll see what we, you know, people put white lips and water pythons and olive pythons and stuff like that. But, you know, you don't really see, like, colubrids and stuff. And there's a lot of cool colubrids. So, like, to me, I think Jason's idea was, because I remember, Owen, you were there with me at the show when we were talking about, you know, it's really cool that we have carpets and we really dig them, but we kind of want, you know, there's always that need to want that other thing. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like, that's the idea, Marelia, et cetera. But then, like, you don't see, I shouldn't say you don't see it. It seems like it's just like Marelia, I guess, you know what I mean? It's like, I want to know what happened. It's like, what happened there? You know? It's like you lost the whole idea of this thing. Yeah. Yeah, I noticed that right away. Oh, yeah. It's nothing but Marelia. You know, it's like every 10 posts is really an et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. So to me, that was like for like, you know, if, if, if, for instance, like, if I wanted to post up my Okati corn snakes and I wanted the same people that were into Marelia to sort of see them, well, they might not see it on my page or whatever. So like, I want to go to a group and then I'll go to like a corn snake group and, you know, I might not get along with those people or whatever. I'm sort of like want to show it off to, you know, to, to the people that I know that, you know, in the Marelia world and then that was kind of the, the idea and just like, and then like your news feed is like, you know, like 17 pictures of the same snake and all these different things. Same snake. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, they can get a bit annoying sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. Break it up a little bit or take different pictures of the animals. You know, it's like, if I took four pictures of my wet lips, I'll use one picture here, another picture here, and another picture there. So it's broken up a little bit. I'm not going to take the same picture and post it on everything. So, like that's where we kind of get a little redundant. So, okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, let's talk a little bit about, you know, what's your approach to keeping carpets? I know we're kind of like veering off on all these different topics and stuff, but I'm curious, like what kind of caging do you use and your approach with temperatures and all that kind of stuff? It's pretty much pretty simple, to be honest. Where I keep my animals is basically right now an addition that was put onto my house. And I have all types of caging in there. Kind of like a little bit of everything, which kind of drives me nuts right now. But I've got some old bow master cages. I have some old cage crafters, they're called. I have all different size racks. I actually have custom cages that my father came up with in design. It's quite similar to, if you've ever seen Roger Lester's cages. It kind of, the design looks very similar to his. Okay. I have some of those. The only thing is, you know, it's melting. So, they're heavy. I worry about water and all that. But in all honesty, they've actually been pretty great. I actually like them the same as, you know, the PVC cages. So, minus the weight. Right. I like, well, forest, sliding glass, swing doors. I have both. I have, you know, keep my hatchlings in six courts when they first hatch out. Pump them up to 15 courts and 32s. I have some B70s. And then the caging. I will say this, as far as the temperature drops. I don't know if we're going to get into breeding and everything. My room kind of fluctuates with what's going on outside. More than probably most people's rooms would. When they added the addition to the house, I don't think it's insulated quite as well. So, in the winter time, once it gets below 40, 30 degrees, you can feel it back there. You know, it gets a little cool. Sometimes I'll have to use a radiator heater. But I take my snakes down to 70 during the cooling season. And I bet that it's probably gotten into the 60s for when I do the cool down back there. For me, it works great. I think I kind of have a good formula, per se. You know, last year, the pairings I did, you know, I had one female that I wasn't sure if she would go or not. And she didn't go, but the other pairings went well. But other than that, pretty basic. I don't put my huts on it too hot. It's probably 85-ish, 86. Sometimes, you know, grab a female. I'll get a little warmer for them. Honestly, I read my snakes. I'm constantly in their minimum once in the morning, once in the evening. And that's minimal every day. And I kind of, you know, kind of read them. And, you know, to adjust, you know, my husbandry and everything. So, I don't know how in depth you want to get into as far as keeping wheat tape for heating and racks. I do use radiant heat panels for all the caging. And what I found when you use those is to actually, if you want to use a hot spot that is 85 or above, I would recommend making sure that you have a shelf or something for an animal to get closer to the RHP. And the reason why I say that is because when I found with it was if I didn't have something like that where my probe was set for the hot spot, then there really wasn't a side of the cage that was cool enough for the animals. So, for instance, if I set a hot spot at 86 and it didn't have a shelf close enough for those animals to get up and get to that spot, I was finding that on the other side. The cage was only, you know, 85, 84. So there wasn't a big difference. You know, I like my snakes to be able to cool down and get off that heat because anything above 85, I noticed, they just, they want to stay away from it. And that's just my experience. I think some people make them too hot. Yeah, I would agree. I'm curious with when your temperatures are getting down, you know, possibly even into the 60s with having an IJ's, have you noticed any issues with them going down that low? Not yet. No, and here's the thing, you know, because I did at first think about, you know, I was a little worried about it. What I do is, and I think, Eric, you mentioned this before on the show, I keep my IJ's and my jungles higher up in the room. Yep, because it's a little bit warmer in the room like do with when it's really, really cold. What I'll do is adjust their temperatures to about 70. So if it does get down into the 60s, they have that option to get on the heat. Gotcha. If that makes sense, you guys. Yep. So for instance, during the coldest time of the year, if it's super cold outside, my room is, you know, hitting the 60s. My heat source will be set at 70 at the lowest. So if you can below that, that heat source is going to click on to give them the option to wear. If it's too cold, then you need to warm up so they can do it. I don't know what you guys experience, but it seems to me as long as it seems like carpets are pretty resilient, and as long as you're giving them that hot spot during the day, they can get pretty cold. You know? Yeah. As long as they can warm up during the day, they're pretty cold. I think, you know, one thing that I never mentioned on the show, and you'll probably agree with me since you kind of watch your snakes, but one of the things that I look for is like, I noticed that if I walk in and I see that my carpets are coiled really, really tight and they're on the heat, like super tight. To me, that's telling me, maybe they're a little, maybe that's a little too cold, you know? Yeah. I just see like, I don't know how to explain. It's almost like they're on eggs to a certain, you know? Like they're super tight ball, like they're trying to conserve everything a little bit of heat. I might adjust that. I noticed that with the snakes that I keep on the lower part of the room. Right. Sometimes I feel like that. So you sort of adjust accordingly, but... Yeah. Yeah. I do the same. I forget what I was going to say. I had a thought, but it should put my mind just now. Yeah. I mean, I basically do the same thing. My room also is set up to where the natural light cycle, the whole... Basically, my snakes that run off of that. I don't have lights to come on inside that room. I have a huge sliding glass door and a lot of large windows. So during the day, it's really bright in there. And what I found with that is that once the days start to shorten, even before I start dropping night time lows, it seems like the snakes are starting to know it's coming. So I've had snakes want to breathe in. I've had snakes go off feed a little bit early. Yeah. So trying to get everything lined up. Last year, I just said, "You know what? I'm just going to kind of do what I did. You know, do it, pull them in December through January and a little bit into February. I actually do it for about 10 weeks because it seems down here in Maryland that that's the coldest time of the year." And I just kind of let the snakes do their thing. I pair them up. I do pair them up early to see if there's interest and to let the female know there's a male, you know, available to breathe. So when I first was doing my nighttime drops, I'll introduce them to see if there's any kind of reproductive behavior. Leave them in there for a few days, pull them out. I might kind of, you know, leave them in there for a few days, pull them out for the first few weeks. But then after that, once I start dropping the tents, you know, below the mid-70s at night, I pretty much leave the males with the females until I know it's done. Okay. Cool. That makes sense. Have you had any? I might pretty much do the same thing. Have you had any issues with this season in particular? Just kidding. Um, not really. Um, my IJs and jungles, you know, seem to always go first. Um, the only thing I noticed was I did, I do have one pairing of, um, the coastal where I'm still getting locks now. And it looks like she's just filled her follicles large enough to where she's about to operate. Yeah, you and I are in the same boat. Yeah. Kind of late. Um, I don't know if it has anything to do with the weather, you know, but it, it didn't really, um, you know, things are kind of on track. If I look at when, when I was getting, uh, aged last year, I'm pretty much right away on the same, same time, you know, within the week. As far as like my jungle, I did a repeat pairing for jungles. That animal is, um, due to lay in about two weeks. And, um, it's right around when she did last year. So it's, you know, I guess it really didn't affect, um, the animals too much. She needs to be able to try. Yeah. Oh, well. Let's see. Oh, and. No, I thought you were going to say something. You were like, stuttering. I don't know what the hell you're doing. So I'm waiting for you. But that was my thing. Right. Um, one of the projects you're working on right now. Like what do you, what do you got breathing right now this season? Right now this season. Um, super caramel tiger jags. Uh, super caramel clutch. And the super caramel clutch. Um, I don't know if you guys noticed. The ones that I've posted from last year. Um, I'm kind of working on that with that project a little bit and that pairing. Um, to, you know, the animals are both banded. I ended up getting some really nice animals for that pairing. So I did that pairing again. Um, pure jungle watches. Uh, for this year. Tiger to tiger pairings again. Um, let's see. The IJ's, I only did one IJ pairing and that was my female that had some striping and I ended up pairing her to her clutch me to see if I can, uh, get any of that funky pattern in the offspring that I saw the, the parents have. Gotcha. You know, we'll see, see the results of that first before I figure out the direction I want to go with that. No. Yeah. Um, anything more than that right now with what I have going on personally. Um, I couldn't imagine having to get more than that feeling and. You know, keeping up with the new fast paced world of Facebook and Sharon's. Yeah, just that's about. That's good enough for me right now. Uh huh. Yeah. Two thousand eighteen, um, it's going to be a little crazy, I think. But we'll see. I even thought about, uh, I had somebody offer to come down and clean, clean the animals for me. You guys probably know. Oh, the mall next. I'm going to go to the mall. Yeah. I'm going to go to the mall. I'm going to go to the mall. Okay. Get them down here on the weekend and make them wear a Raven's jersey. No. No, no, no, that is. of our trash and adorable. We'll go get more Lombardi trophies. Anyway, it's all a good fun out man. Of course. I watched you and Jason Bailin like comment comment comment that I'm like I'm just gonna sit over here and be very very very quiet. Depending on how the game is going. If we start winning then I start throwing my hat in this ring but until then I can get there quietly. Don't say anything. No. Anyway, so how would you go about establishing your babies? I think you said like getting baby started and I know we've talked to people like Nick where he's like oh I have to go get 700 babies feeding and I'm like what? So how do you guys just have us? To tell you what with carpet place on for me and you guys already you know talk about it more than once live hoppers for tricky carpets. Seems to do the trip. You know and if that doesn't work A.S.S. that seems to be the trick and then worst case scenario what I've done is assist feed maybe a few times and then eventually they'll take it on their own. You know back years ago working with different off species. You know we used to put our feed right away and it was just a lot different. I just think the biggest thing to get in the babies to eat right out of the egg is to be patient. You know I've read comments and stuff online people saying you know that's been six weeks and I can't get this you know I've gotten only this many will eat so far. Be patient you know I just give them the eyeball test if I feel like they're starting to get a little too to thin too weak then you know I might opt to give them an assist feed. But so far so good in my experience with carpet. The jungles they were a little finicky at first but live hoppers everyone on them and I just had to be patient. They are the worst like they're afraid of dead hoppers. I don't know why but it's like they honestly got ran away from them even if I just laid them down in the cage. But the second I put live hoppers in there ever single one of them eight so you're exactly correct just the live food I don't know if they jump in and get them all going or whatever. And then picking up the heat from alive Adam yep yep yep I think that's one of the triggers. And then once they once they take that they seem to start to get it you know. I want to say off the end from last year I think I have maybe one animal that still prefers live. And I've gotten them to take frozen fall down but for the most part it just seems like once they get the first meal or two they seem to do pretty well. Yeah. I think I've probably tried to be tricking the book you know sometime in my life. Check down chicken ball and yogurt my bone all that stuff. But I didn't have to do it with carpets. Yeah they can be go ahead I mean I tried tuna if that's one of them we're going to discuss but that was weird. So any positive results. I got I had two this is like my first clutch a carpets and I had two non feeders and I actually drained a can of tuna and then like soaked the hopper in it. And they ate it but then I couldn't get them to eat a normal hopper not soaked in tuna fish so I had to we want to a normal hopper so I would not recommend it. Of course this was if I just gone and just bought frickin live I probably would have avoided all this but I was stupid. So yeah yeah and I've tried the yogurt and I've tried chick down piggy heads chicken broth a live chick I mean everything you can think of it's been tried. So let me let me ask you guys this what's your experience with for me so far with with the carpets I've worked with. My IJ and I'm wondering if it's because they're only one generation removed from the wild they seem to act like what you said with the Bradley. They seem to not want anything to do with rats they'd rather flee so readily take moist now with my with the jungles they seem to prefer if you put just a little tiny bit of chick down on the top of the mouse head. And then let them go in it's like it's I think what did you guys say a carpet craft for a yeah the chick down the chick down seemed to work like that for me for like the really finicky carpets. And of course jungles and IJ's have you guys found that with the shows. My son. I have I have not because I usually will get them started on hoppers and then I'll get them on the rat this is possible. And then that's really stay. And I've not done chick down I will do something for a grocer and that is brain I'll take. Yeah, I'll take the pinky and I'll bring it and I'll smear the brain on to the hopper that I want them to. So and I'll also do that if I want to with like I'll cut the pinky down the middle and rub all that on top of the head of the hopper that works great. I mean and that that works I found that work on a bunch of animals were it works a lot on an animal that is taken a meal like everyone's why you get one that takes a meal and then I guess like doesn't like it and never takes another one. But doing that like the brain will definitely get them eating again and then you just stop doing it and they keep going. I've done that with great success but I've not seen any preference of rat to mice especially as they get a little bit bigger because I'll just interchange rat mice rat mice rat mice and then no more mice just all rat after a certain point. And then they're good. I've I've I've held that with IJs can be well like my first clutch of IJs everything eight. I had no issues. That was maternal incubation. I don't know if that had anything to do with it. I have no idea. Could just be beginner's luck. But I've had more problems with jungles or anything that had jungles crossed into it. My current way that I approach it is a little bit different than Owens and probably in the long run probably ends up costing me sales and like why are your carpets smaller than than everybody else's carpets type of deal. But I'm big into cycling and I'm big into that animal from birth is going to cycle. You know in my room because I feel that one of the things that I see with talking to these guys like Nick and Ryan and all these guys that have animals that they produced and they grew up and they that are in their collections is that. You know they're used to their rooms and and and they're used to the cycle that goes on so much so that you probably don't even need as much of a you know. Just just a normal cycles of the room have they become acclimated to and they just go off of that. So like what happens with mine is that you know when it cools down and I don't feed I don't feed offspring either and I don't know they're always hungry you know I mean like I never have a problem with them refusing because they're probably you know. Maybe they realize that food is not going to I'm not like that guy that goes every Saturday and feeds. You know what I'm saying like how I do. I do the cycle feeding also. I definitely see I definitely feed more similar to you Eric. I my hatchlings you know right out of the egg are going to experience the same you know as my adults but the one thing I will say is I still leave the hatchlings a little bit warmer. As far as the lot spot I don't let them get down like another I'll never take them down to 70 but I'll decrease their feeding so they really do not eat December and January into February. I'm just nail starting to get some meals in them again. Me too. Me too. Yeah and then as as they grow the feedings are less frequent their meals get a little bit bigger and they don't get fed quite as often. You know I'm not every week let's feed the snakes like like some people and I get it you know it's interaction you know you feel like you're it makes you feel good when your snakes are all eating and all that stuff. But for me and I don't know I think that I kind of saw how well it was working with my scrubs as far as their physical as far as physically. They just seemed so fit to me they seem so healthy feeding like that so I did that with the carpet and I'm going to tell you if you saw my male jungle that this year is started second clutch. He is tiny. Yeah he is. I want to do a comparison with like you know a pant or something next to all and share. I think some people would might not believe me. That's more. So yeah so we're kind of on the same but although I do that my my young get down to the whatever the room is man if it's getting down to 70. That's what it is you know right I just I just want them in that program of what's going on in my room now on the foot on the bed the bedside of that is is that like if I was going to sell snakes you know my they're small. And like people are looking and especially with carpets you know it's like that once they start to eat once they get through that period to where they just gray and you know dull and what not then all of a sudden they start to get colors when they would start to you know people would be interested in them so to speak. I don't know works for me you know. So yeah I basically like I said I basically I had the same mindset as you I just don't get quite as cold for the hatchling. But they still experience you know the season. The drop right. Yeah. Yeah my feeling was is that so if it's going to get colder in the room and my adults are not eating then that would only make sense that you know one of the reasons why is because I don't want them like you know I don't want the food to go bad in their gut or whatever and you know have have kind of other issues or problems that would arise and I tend to feed like because I feed mice up until you know the carpet is big enough to take a small rat. Right. So they're taking pretty big meals you know I mean I never do anything pink like no pinkies no none of that for carpets. So I always you know I try to use hoppers and mice and that's about it so much so that I think that I'm going to like maybe breed some some hoppers. I ended up thinking God don't do it. Yeah. Did you do it? Yeah. Yeah. I ended up having to because it was just too difficult for me to you know every time I needed them to figure out all right you know let me call a rat guy and hook up with him and getting live and it's just a headache and when you have so many babies that you have that you need hoppers for you know you need them on hand. You need to be able to you know go grab one and when you need it not wait until you can meet up and go get some or so yeah I ended up doing it all this fast season I started doing it and at first at a hard time getting the mice to breed and yeah I didn't I thought you know what's going on and talk to a few people and they thought it might have been that they were too warm where I had them. So I ended up putting some fans in there and trying to get the temperature of the room where they're at a little bit cooler and right away I started getting letters. So I don't know I guess that's what it was. So how cold what's the temperature that they have to be to get them going. It's like normal room temperature for us. They were originally in a room where you know if you were keeping a snake room. It's where it was a little warm you know sometimes it would get mid 80s and it was muggy. So long yeah so I ended up having to move them and I mean it's working out pretty good now you know so no more chasing them down they're at my convenience and I couldn't imagine you know having to go by around those hoppers every time I'm feeding all the all the hatchlings just you know couldn't imagine doing it. Yeah so so what do you like what are you are you breeding them in a rack are you do you have a big group of them or what. How did you set that up? Not a big deal. I really in all honesty it's a small group just enough to maintain what I need for hatchlings. I have as far as like adult mice I do have someone that kind of gives me a hook up on them right so I can get them pretty regularly. I got you so I always have those on hand but yeah and another thing since we're talking about mice and the convenience to have and another reason why I did it is I don't mind feeding like male jungles and male IJs. You know I don't spaz out because I can't get them to feed on rats. You know I don't mind it it's easy it keeps them small and for me personally every mouse or male I have is one of the best breeders. Yeah I mean that temperature starts to drop and the daylight starts to shorten they're constantly just cruising ready to breed. So interesting I don't know yeah. Yeah I think I think I'm like breakdown and do it. Yeah I've been sitting on the fence with it but like from the get go like I'm basically like you my males are small so I'm with you man I don't care. I don't know if that's what's going to get you going then do it. You know honestly it's not like you do hear people say oh I don't know if it's worth it and isn't that if you just do a small colony it's nothing. I mean I'm so glad I did it. I was kind of like you I was on the fence you know like do I really feel like dealing with mice and breeding rodents. But as long as you're not you know feeling like an all out roses operation and you keep it small just enough to maybe feed your collection and what you need it's really not that much. So how many how many do you have like what do you have like a rack. I have a couple of acts a friend of mine used to breed them here locally and ended up you know basically going out of business he'd be at the restaurant and he'd just been that time anymore and he ended up giving me a couple of racks and you know once I had those I was like well I guess I had to do it now. So it was kind of fell right into my lap and so I went and got some live young adult mice and from there it's perfect for me you know from my collection. Yeah I guess so basically from the get go your feet and live hoppers because that's what I do I mean I mess around with all this nonsense and everything but it just seems to me like their first round they're getting they're getting live you know. If the next time I go around I think I do it three times I feed them live and then by that third time when they're pretty consistent is when I try to offer frozen thought. And it seems that once you get like maybe three or four feedings into carpets they're pretty much that then they're just going you know at least that's been my experience. Me too I definitely more often than not you know you're always going to have a few that you know but yeah I'm with you I've had the same experience. So you get that one zebra jag that member Owen the one that got out of the cage. Yes. Or in the light or whatever. Do not get out of the cage. No animals were out of cages they were eating. Yeah. That thing didn't eat. That didn't eat for six months. I couldn't ever. Yeah. Six months. They wouldn't eat. And I'm just as a mindset like and again that was like the first year that zebra jags were produced. In the state. And like you know that animal was worth like I don't know two thousand dollars and this is my approach. If you're not going to eat then you're going to die. It just doesn't you know. Good luck Chuck. You know. Because I think you to a certain extent you're you're you're you're propagating those that bed feeder. I would imagine that that is somewhat genetic. And I don't want that shit. You know. I want that animal. It's hardy. It's weird. It's like my first clutch. They weren't eating and I forced fed a bunch of them. And I was like there was some stuff feeding and some to whatever. There was one that I kept force feeding her for almost a year. And she was just dying on me. It happened. But it's like I've never done it again. I will never force feed a baby again. I will do everything in my power to get you to eat normal. But if you're going to keep refusing to go. Sign on up. But having since I've adopted that. I've not had a baby. Just drop dead of starvation. Like they've always. Somewhere for all the stupid tricks and everything I got. They'll always start eating. So. I've had a couple. I've had a couple. Like I said. It is what it is. You're not going to eat. What is this? The only one that would. The only one I had any. I forced fed. I just fed the albino zebra jag. And then one time doing that. Then it was off to the races after that. Yeah. Okay. All right. So you said you're keeping them in six quart tubs, right? When they're babies? Yeah. Right out of the egg. Yeah. They go in six quart tubs. Do you offer any kind of like perching or anything like that for them to chill out with? I'm pretty simple when they're babies. I do. You know the. What is it? The green little. I don't even know to be honest what it's called. You can buy it in a roll. It's a plastic like fence thing, right? Yes. Yes. I have a roll of that. I offer that in there. A heavy hide. And when I show the babies, they'll perch right on top to hide the most. And then they perch on the side of the water bowls I use. So, and then I use paper towels for substrate. I'll take the cardboard from paper towel rolls. Cut that in half and put pieces of that in there like for little tubes for them to crawl in and, you know, hide in so they feel secure. One thing I will say. One thing I'll say about some of the babies is in substrate and everything. It's a little trick I learned. I mean, it's worked for me. And I guess, you know, I'd like to share it in case, you know, someone never wants to try or whatever. But when you use paper towels, I feel like a snake that is stressed doesn't feel secure when you use paper towels as substrate. And I feel like if you use something like shredded aspen, where the snakes can, you know, bury down in there and they can feel that aspen up against their body when they're coiled, when they're bedded in it. I think it gives them a sense of security because I've done that before where I couldn't get a snake eating switched from paper towel to aspen shredding and I could get them to eat. I don't know. It's a little trick. So far, every time I've done it, it's worked. No, excuse me. I thought it was because feeling maybe a little stressed out and I felt like who asked when they would burrow in it. It would give them a sense of security, I think. Yeah, that makes sense. It seems to work for me. You know, what's weird is that I noticed with my young IJs when I was using paper towels or even unprinted newspaper I use sometimes. What would happen is that they would, they would constantly be spilling, well, it seems like they're spilling their water balls because the freaking thing is always wet. You know, it's like, oh, yeah. And I'm like, you know, why is this always wet? And what I did, I actually learned, I just kind of stole this from Matt because Matt was doing this with his Borneos and such that were sort of like, I think he was doing it for the same reason, but what he was using was Spagnum Moss. And he was just putting it in there and you know, that was their substrate and they just sort of burrowed down and he could keep them, you know, a little bit, little, you know, moisture and the moisture in it was a little bit better. And so I said, hmm, that's interesting. I started doing that with my young IJs and they have no more issues with the, I noticed they're always in their water balls too. I don't know if you've, like for some reason, IJs freaking love just laying in the water. Yeah, you know, and you noticed that too. I would be freaking out like, oh shit, you know, oh no, my answer. You see all your babies in water balls, that's like, you know, you know where everybody's mind goes right away. You're like, oh my God. But, yeah, so once I did that, I don't see that anymore. You know, they didn't burrow down and, you know, so I, yeah, I'm getting what you're putting down. I'm with you. So, so I'm guessing that's what you use consistently, right? Aspen, do you have any problems with mold? I heard that like molding with aspen is no. No. Well, actually, I mean, I use paper towels for the most part. When you use the aspen for snakes that are a little tricky to get feeding and snakes that seem like they might be a little stressed out. Oh, I gotcha. Yeah. So, so you want me to do it when there's a problem. Right. Right. So, now I do use shredded aspen in some racks, mainly because I can't stand, you know, if how the newspaper gets, if it gets wet. Yeah. In some kind of a rack. That's sliminess sometimes if the water, some of the water comes out of the dish and, you know, it's, I like the look of it too for me as a keeper. It makes me feel like, I don't know, keeping the animals on some kind of surface-sized newspaper. I mean, you know, things change since, you know, years ago. So, some things I still try to keep more like I used to do, you know, the aspen kind of keeps me there when I use that in the racks. I've never had any problem with molding. It's easy for me as far as, you know, you do a check in the morning and you're running late for work and you can spot clean real fast. Aspen is very convenient for that. You know, things like that. So, it has its pros and cons. In the larger cages, I use newspaper. It's pretty much a no-brainer for me. It's pretty simple, you know, I couldn't imagine, you know, years ago when we would use Cypress mulch and aspen and incase. You know, when you're cleaning cages, it's your whole floor's covered with it. And it just, you know, you open the cage door lid and if you have a snake that, you know, your snake pushes it out of cage. It's too messy for me personally to have to deal with. I just don't like dealing with it. And the newspaper just seems really simple. So, that's what I use in the larger cages now. Yeah, I think Owen would probably agree with you. Didn't you switch to Cypress at 1.0 and then sex? I did. I did. But then I went back. Like, I had, I was all about it and I loved how everything was working out and how everything just kind of smelled like nice and wood and stuff. But I was driven absolutely crazy by the nats. There were these tiny little nats or something that somehow got into the mulch and just kept reading and I couldn't. No matter how many changes you did, I lost my goddamn mind. So, no more. I will say this. Owen, I will say, do you get a sense, like, because you have, you know, you have scrubs and white lips. For some reason, I can't bring myself to use newspaper with them. I love how you said that because at one point, I was exactly the same. But I'm telling you right now, all my scrubs are on newspaper and all my white lips are on newspaper except my adult pair, which is on mulch. Okay. I have my adult pair of white lips on mulch because I want them to make tiny white lips. I'm trying to trick them into doing things. I don't think it's working, but... I think that's kind of my thinking. Like, I feel like using cypress mulch or something, you know, for things that are a little bit more difficult to get going and breeding or reproducing. I don't know. I just, even if it's just for me mentally, I feel like I have a better shot and it's something better, a better tactic to use to make the animal feel comfortable and do the skipper. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and I set up, I set up my adult white lips cage so that I, maybe, I'll check on them daily, but it's a quick peek in and then out. So they have a huge ass water bowl and it's actually just a big plastic bin for them to curl up in. And I will do the spockling, but other than that, I try not to mess with them at all. I have the hide box position so that if they're hiding in it, they don't see, like, it's not pointed at the door. They can totally not see me. And I think that's the best way to work with some of these high-strong animals is just removing the adult's equation. Yeah. Leave them the hell alone. So I'll know if there's something up, like if I see the male, like, all the way on the other end of the cage trying to get away from wherever the female is, I'll know there's something up, like she's just sitting on eggs and just beating the crap at him. So I'll check them. Until then, I'll just leave them me. So, you know, I'm going to try to keep removing myself, and they're in my, the weightless are actually in my office. They're not down with the other snakes. So there's even that thing too. So they are real far removed. I kind of do the same. I have an adult pair of cannon bars right now that are together. And I just, in all honesty, I think the key is to just leave them alone so you don't stress them out. And I also think that a mistake that might be made is when you get new animals, for instance, you know, let's just say I just got my cannon bars, breeding them that initial season right afterwards. I don't think it's a good idea because I think it just adds stress to animals that are going to adapt to a new environment. I'll agree to that. What I did with the adult pair I had together now is I've had them for a few years now, never tried to breed them yet. Last year, I put them together for a week, maybe just to see if, you know, if there was anything that would happen to be productive. But for the most part, I put no effort into it. And I spent the last two years just trying to get them adapted to my setup, my environment, you know, basically leaving them alone, but they seem very, very well established now. They don't seem like they're stressed, like when they first came here. And they also, it's like they kind of know what I'm doing before I do it, almost like they have my routine down now, to where it doesn't stress them out at all. So I think that's the key, is getting them established, leaving them alone before attempting to, you know, breed them. So I don't know. We'll see what happens. Go ahead, Eric. I was going to say the barkers, they said that for the longest time. Like I think that with these species like white lips and tannin bars and scrubs and all this, I don't think that it's necessarily that they're any more difficult to breed or that the trigger is any, you know what I mean? It just seems odd that pythons matter where they're from. When they were wild caught, they were difficult to breed. You know what I mean? It's like, I jays at one point were difficult to breed. You know, ball pythons were difficult to breed. Nobody could breed them. You know, I mean, and you have them. And for whatever reason, those particular species that you're mentioning, scrubs, you know, are highly, well, as far as snakes go, they seem like they're more intelligent than they're really in tune with what's going on, which I think leads them more to be stressed, you know. And I think that, you know, you make a good point that they got your routine down, so to speak. And, you know, I think Ryan Young was big for me for like talking to him, even off the show. Just like talking to him about like just how he, you know, his approach is that once they're settled in, you know, that's when they're going to get on your schedule. Like, you know, you're trying to put a, they're not on your schedule. And it may take years. The problem is is that, you know, with these things like scrubs and white lips and, you know, I think that people want immediate gratification. You know, and they're not willing to say, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to wait, you know, this project is going to be eight years long. You know, I think like Rob Stone with his Alma Harris scrubs, you know, he goes over it each year. And each year I hope that he, you know, is going to be successful. But I know one of these years he's going to hit it because just, just from the behavior of his animals and him, you know, saying that they're sort of, you know, chilled out and, you know, relaxed and getting into the groove. And once you figure it out, I think that's, that's when you have success, you know, just quietly. But I don't think there's a magic equation, you know. Yeah, you know, yeah, I do. I think that is the biggest thing though. The, as far as people with scrubs and, you know, some of these other species, they want them to reproduce now and not five years from now. Once they're settled in and established to your environment, you know, and they get on a good cycle with your routine and how the seasons are. So, it seems, you know, that was always my problem with the whole rare reptile idea, right? You know, it's not that I shouldn't say that I had a problem with it. It was just a team hypocritical to me, you know, because everybody was like, I'm going to try to breed this rare species, which is awesome, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, you know, more people should be doing that and, you know, maybe these, these species would be established in captivity, et cetera, et cetera, you know. I'm not against that, but they would be in a rush because they want to be that person that produces it, which is no different than the mentality that they're so anti against when it comes to morphs. You know what I mean? It's the same mentality, but because this is, you know, a brown tree skink that somehow this is acceptable, but if I'm breeding, you know, an albino super zebra bla bla bla bla bla bla, that somehow this becomes unacceptable. You know what I mean? Just, I don't know. Just one of my pet peeves. Like, if you're into that species, then, you know, then you should want to be working with it and try to figure it out, but it's a shame because most people, I'm even guilty of this as well. Like, you get scrubs, you think, oh, yeah, this is going to be, this is going to be a fun ride, you know. These are beautiful animals. And then, nope. You know, you get involved and then you have to reset, reset. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah, they're definitely not for everyone. And I think a huge part of, for the person that does get them and then does decide to put the time in and work with them for a long time, figure them out. It also depends on the animals you have. You know, I think if you get the right animals. Right. You know, it's good for the keeper who's going to put the work in. Sure. For instance, I personally don't know if I could put 10 years into working with tanibars to figure them out. If every time I had to change the water bowl, I'm worried about getting my flesh sliced up. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think trying to be patient, getting healthy animals, because you can always get captive for it. Right. You know, don't just go out and buy up. There's a shipment in and there's, you know, this, this, that I'm going to order some and I just don't recommend that, you know, being the way to acquire them. They get to be patient and get the right animals. And then, you know, once you get those animals, put all that time into them. I don't know. I think don't be figured out. You know, we'll know a little bit more about them within the next few years. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's, it's, you know, I think maybe there might be something like when I say that they're not difficult, like who am I to say it because I haven't bred them. You know what I mean? And I don't mean to say like they're super easy. Like, but what I mean by that is that we're, you know, there could be multiple factors in as far as like when they're ovulating, you know, we're thinking they're on this schedule when they're not. You know, but people aren't. It's, it's, it's hard when you're not like, I think that's why guys like David means was successful because that's what he focused on. You know what I mean? He had a laser focus on scrubs and he was successful. You know, that was his collection. Right. You know, it wasn't like he was doing carpets and he had a couple scrubs and this is just a side project type of thing. You know, everything was acclimated to what those scrubs needed. Maybe there. I mean, when he talked on the show, I think he said that there were, it was quite different on how he approached, you know, breeding them. You know, I think that also you have to kind of roll with the punches. Like I had my tenon bars together and he had nothing but sluggers this year. Yeah, and I think it's because my male is just so wired and I'm strong. I think the next year when I set the model, I'm going to set it up to be almost exactly like the white lips where it's like on mulch with perches. And I'm even probably going to put a cover on the door so that you can't even see me. This way it's like you guys are perfectly all on your own and I'm not even going to touch it. So then they might relax and I might actually get some fertile eggs. Plus, I'm not going to put an uplift food to the girl like L already. So I woke her up a little bit. Since we're talking about scrubs, Mike, what's this scrub? What's the story with the scrub that's in your profile pick on Facebook? That's David Means produced scrub. Nice. I think 2010. I got a sibling to that. I thought you might have had a touch me. Yeah. I still have a question. Oh, there's a story to how I got that animal. It was a nightmare to get the animal, but it was all worth it in the end. And I ended up driving eight hours each way alone to go pick the animal up. And my GPS took me through DC on the way down during the Redskins game. Oh, yeah. At one crazy road trip to go get that animal. But especially being by myself, you know, it'd be different if I had someone to talk to. But yeah, it was a long ride. Left in the morning to get home to like, I think it was three in the morning. Something like that. Wow. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. I did crazy. I did a similar trip. Of course, it didn't take me quite as long, but yeah. We met, I think, in Baltimore somewhere or something. Like he came up from Virginia and I drove down to Baltimore. That's right. I'm in Baltimore County. Oh, there you go. Cool. So do you have a pair of them? Or is it Barna? Is that just that? I have one cat that's born from David, but I had wild caught also. The reason why you'll see that animal more frequently is because it is so docile. I can stick a camera, right? You know, I can do anything with that animal. It's really amazing. Really easy to photograph. Plus, she's beautiful. She's so striking. And, you know, real easy to photograph. I have another giant pyramail, which I know this is the carpet show, so I'm not going to get too much into all that. No. Go ahead, man. Yeah. Well. I think I'm probably going to ask the question that you probably were going to go down the road. So my question would be this. Do you feel that like crossing localities is a good thing or a bad thing? That's sacrilege, dude. Well, I think right now where we're at today is for us what we know about scrubs. Uh-huh. I would be against it. Okay. I do think that when you're talking about northern Barna and you're talking about southern, you know, and we call them a rook or you guys want to pronounce it. And then you start talking about localities. I think that there's tremendous variation within each area. And I don't necessarily think I believe that also over here in the states, without us doing the research or seeing the research that someone else has done, can claim that this is exactly what an animal is from Giant Pure. See how it has the portholes right here that definitely came from Giant Pure. I don't necessarily think that, you know, that there is no, you know, a pattern that basically says this is where it's from. Exactly. Right. Oh, I think there's just tremendous variation. And until we do more studies on them, you know, we just can only, you know, go by what we did to market them. And that's by labeling them by their, you know, their appearance. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, they all, the localities have a general look, you know, as far as how, you know, what we call them in the U.S. Similar to Kondros. Similar to Kondros. Yeah. Very, very similar to Kondros, you know. Yeah. That's actually, I think, you're going to end up one of my trips I'd love to go on. Would be being able to go over there and basically, you know, study the different areas. And, you know, do the research. I mean, that would be like a herpet trip of a lifetime. To go, you know, find animals in each locality and actually do the research and figure out exactly what's going on. Right. So we would have a better understanding. Yeah. That would be quite a trip, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I think I would, you know, I would tend to agree. I think that the only problem that I have when it comes to locality stuff is, you know, the obvious, you know, if you were told that this is from here, then, you know, it's not. The problem arises when all of a sudden an animal shows up. And let's say, just for sake of argument, that it's legitimately from, you know, wherever, a rue or whatever. And it looks different. And people are going to be like, nope, that's not in a rue. And, you know, I get, you know, it's just like it's this specific phenotype. And that's it, you know. Yep. So, but that, yeah, I don't know. I totally get, understand why you would want to do that. Because what if all of a sudden then on the flip side of it, if they do something like what would happen with the chondros is that chondros are actually two separate species. I would imagine that it's the same thing with, with scrubs as well. I mean, it just seems odd to me that, you know, all these different animals on the north are one species and all of them on the south are different species. And everything that's on Australia is another species. So, it would seem to me that, you know, that it would follow the same suit. And if you go and just, you know, cross everything, you're really going to just have hybrids, you know. Right. Yeah, I would never, never cross. You know, I would never, I wouldn't do it so wrong to a giant bureau. You know, it's probably what we know them to be. Right. Not at this point in time from what we think we know about scrubs. Right. You know. Yeah. So, yeah, I'd totally against all that. So, great. No, I got a question for you, Mike, I just saw these pop up. It looks like a pair of Oxables. Right. Would you be kind of a little hesitant about jumping onto that because of the fact that it's more of a rarer locality and it's kind of like, you don't really know, there could be a lot of question marks. So, the validity with are these actually Oxables and, you know, is that what we're really looking at here? Would you kind of be hesitant or would you kind of be like Oxables, dive and go, you know. So, what you're saying is what I acquire Oxables to work with. What is the, would you, if you saw a pair of Oxables on? Right. I think I saw one on Faunters on with that. Would you just kind of be willing to go with your gut of, I see these animals, they look like Oxables, they must be Oxables. Or would you kind of knowing that there are a bunch of question marks of where they came from, are they true Oxables, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or would you kind of maybe pass on them because it's a rare thing, you know. Wouldn't you kind of want to get all lined up? Would I do it to describe a lot of locality animals, because use the work, you know. I don't know, like I, you know, as far as if they looked like what we know over here is Oxables, sure, you know. I'd work with them, for sure. But I know that there's still some questions as far as where these animals came from. You watched some of Dan Malaria's videos and some of the animals that he'll show that he gets in. That he does get some very unique looking animals that when you look at them, it really could throw you on where they came from. You know, and I know he does get shipments where he, you know, he's personally been able to talk to someone that it's 100%. They know where the animals, you know, directly were caught. You know, with the last white lip shipment, I believe, he knew where those white lits came from directly. But it's like, oh, gase, you know. You know, so I would, sure, I'd work with them, but I wouldn't, I'd always, you know, label it like "gia pura" type, "highland" type. You know, I'm not going to say "I know" for sure. You know, one thing I see people do in this, you know, that are involved in scrubs is they've never even been out of the United States. And they claim to say, this is how it is over there. Right. You know, they've never been there. They don't know. They don't, you know, I know this literature and what I'm saying, I just... Oh, yeah. How can someone claim, no, no, this is, I know it. Well, how do you know? Because there's not a lot of research, though. I know, you know, we had Natush do that study. But, you know, there's really not a lot of research on scrubs. Not recent. Yeah. Not at all. Yeah, I'm with you, man. You know, because it's the same, it's the same, again, it's the same thing you see in Gondros. If people know that this is worth something in the States, I mean, they're trying to feed their families and stuff. Of course, they're going to tell you around here or there or whatever magical land you wanted to be from, you know? I mean, unless you physically collected the animal, and you can tell me the GPS coordinates of where you picked it up from. To me, you know, we're just going... And that was sort of my point. I'm glad you brought Dan up because that was sort of my point earlier. It's that, you know, he's getting in animals that are supposed to be this, but they look like that. Right. People are like, "No, that can't be..." You know, you have like these holier-than-now scrub people coming along and just screaming and hollering and saying, you know, he's wrong. Well, meanwhile, Dan's over in the goddamn field, you know, talking to the guy that picked it up. I think he has a little more hands-on knowledge than you do. You know, these keyboard cowboys that just come along and just are going to say how it is. And that's sort of my problem when it comes to, you know, this lock and step that this locality has to have, you know, this, this, and this. I mean, look at even diamond pythons or like that. If you look in Australia, like, where does diamond python... I mean, I know we know where diamonds end and coastal start, but it's just... There's not like a line in the road that says diamonds don't pass this road. Coastal can stay on that side of the road. You know, it's just like a natural integration and, you know, what we have in the States. Who knows? Maybe they are. You know what I'm saying? Like when these weird things pop out, we're like, "Oh, that's..." You must have mixed that up, man. That's like, you know. I don't know. That's not pure. Yeah, I agree. So, all right, we're going to be cut off any minute, so why don't you throw out your info before we get caught off. You want to think about getting some animals from me and stuff? Yeah, well, first off, I want to give a shout out to Andrew Parris, Parris Reptiles. He's done a lot for me, and he's really helped me get my Facebook page up and running because... As some of you guys know, kind of old school guy, not real big into the social media, so he's a huge help. I want to throw him a shout out. But I can be reached at Mid-Atlantic Reptile. That's our Facebook page. Anything that's going on, I'll post up on there. I'm also on Facebook as Mike Cross. You know, if you have any interest in anything going on, just shoot me at the end. My email address is MikeCross45@gmail.com. You can reach me there also. We will have a website coming up. I've been running. I will post on the Facebook page when we're going to launch that. Cool. All right. Very good. Yeah. Absolutely. I guess, you know, because there's a ton more that we could talk about, but, you know, I guess when we do another carpet roundtable, we'll have to get you back on here because... I like the conversations where... I hate the conversations where the people all agree, you know, because you don't really like push the list. Like, yeah, I think Red Coastal's are this. And, you know, the other person's like, yeah. I would agree. Like, that's dumb, probably one time. We want controversy, damn it. No, it's just like putting different points of view out there. You know, that's how I look at it. Definitely. For the most part, I always can take a step back and see the other side. You know, I don't... I never have that mind mentality where I think, because that's what I think. My way's right and your way's wrong. I always can kind of see both sides. Right. It makes it fun for discussion. Yeah, that's what I meant. You're talking about MP days, you know? Right, definitely. I mean, look at tonight, we got sidetracked. I can't believe it's as late as it is. I didn't even see half the stuff I jotted down. But, oh, yeah, it happens. Yeah, I'm sitting here looking at the stuff I jotted down real fast. I didn't even say any of it, but...