Morelia Python Radio

The Carpandro show

Episode # 234 In this episode we will be joined by a panel of guests including Bill Stegall, John M and John Battaglia and we will be discussing a bit of a controversial topic......Carpandros. A carpandro is a hybrid between a carpet python and a green tree python. Love them or hate them they are beautiful snakes and we will discuss them in detail.

Duration:: 1h 53m
Broadcast on:: 17 Feb 2016
Audio Format:: other

Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Projekt. I've been herping since I was a boy, and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markle and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links, so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business, and the best part is, it's free. 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Ship your reptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. The materials needed to ship the reptile successfully, live customer support, and our live, on time, arrival and insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptile report.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] Good evening, everybody. This is Owen McIntyre, your host from Royalview Python radio. Eric Burke is not here. He's gone. He's left us. He's forsaken us. He's gone to Florida yet again, which means I'm running the show, and we have with me tonight the plug-in co-host, the man who will eventually replace me when Eric Burke gets bored of me and decides he's had a job. That would be Rob Stone. Rob, are you in? You can hear me? I sure hope so. You have to be here with you. I'm not out to take your job for sure. [laughter] Hey, you're already doing better like 10 times better than I ever have when he's left me alone. I'm pretty sure he dreads going to Florida because he knows he had to leave me alone with a radio show. Everything else is, you know, the snakes and the dogs, whatever, it's leaving Owen alone to his own devices, probably keeps him up at night. No, you're on the bar right now. [laughter] But now Rob's here, and Rob can babysit me, make sure I don't do anything too horrible, and we have a show next week when he comes back. It's so weird that he planned this show, and I bet you he's kicking himself for not being here because this is the Carpondro show that he was all gung-ho about, and he's like, he left me here, and we all know how I feel about Carpondros, and it's like-- You love him, right? I think I adore them. I wish I had nothing but. [laughter] But it's like this is just poor planning. He could have done this next week when it was-- Or if this had been the wait-lips show, I don't need him. So, you know, I don't know. But Rob, how are things with you? How's your season going? What's going on with your stuff? Oh, pretty well. Nothing too exciting yet. I mean, mostly coolubers over here, so I just pulled them out of the deep breeze last week. So unlike, you know, I get super jealous seeing on Facebook, everyone else posting up, all these locks, all this activity, looks like developing. But Eric over here is just getting, you know, getting close to eggs, or, you know, getting close to the sheds that precede those eggs and all that stuff, and I'm going in. And I just barely put them together. I did get one lock on an early lock from some Kaliburids, and the homes are doing okay, saying, you know, same as they always do. I think those are routine critter, and eventually, eventually they'll hit, but it's just about doing the same thing day in and day out for, you know, years, basically. That's awesome. So, yeah, no. Behind all you, I'm sure. Well, any rhino stuff brewing, again, because you're going to have to have to have you with those again this year. I know, right. We'll have to do something, figure something out for kind of money. So, yeah, hopefully, hopefully a collection of unrelated stocks. So, while female and affluent male, it's from two different unrelated parents. So, yeah, I mean, hopefully, we'll see. And I don't know if you saw those once I posted up, but getting the hold back. I think it is. It's very nice. Yeah. If something about a rhino, when it's standing still and looks like all green, and then it moves, and then you start seeing the white in the scales that they have, it just adds to their level of coolness. Yeah, they got a horn on their head. But when it's in motion, you see colors that you don't see when it's sitting still. It's really cool to me. So, they're tempting. Very, very tempting. Awesome. So, now, it says here on my little cheat sheet that the opening is, what do we think of Carpondros? And Rob, I'll start with you. What do you think of Carpondros? Do you own any? Would you own any? Would you produce any? Well, sure. I guess, yeah, I've been familiar with them for a while, right? I've been very interested in receding Eugene's shaviors and all of that whole situation. I think, and I'd love to hear from Bill and John and the other John, if we can get him on here, that at some point that they were first produced, I think it liked the Baltimore Aquarium or something, and presumably, incidentally, not as a potential product. That's so cool. Because, I mean, you look at, when I was working in the zoo, we all talked about the liars and the jaglons, and the ones where you mix the big cats together, and half of those were by complete accident. Nobody ever was setting out to create this animal. It just happened because you housed these two animals together, and boom, babies. So, it'd be kind of funny if it was the whole Carpondros started, again, in a place that was a zoological-type area. Yeah, I mean, I think that's my understanding. We'll have to see if there's any truth to that or not, because I know, I'm sure it'll know better than me, but, you know, so their meat critters certainly produced some weird looks. I'd love to hear more about them. I think when Eugene talked about them, he said, basically, you know, they all work, basically with the clutches and fertility and stuff, seems like they all work, or they all have been sort of one of those things. And, you know, they're not, I don't know. Not necessarily my thing. Condors are cool. Carpets are cool. You know, they certainly have an interesting look, but I don't see it happening in my future, but I'm certainly not my thing, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why people like them. How about you? I've never owned them, and I've thought about owning them, because at one point I thought that chondros were just far too beyond my ever, like, if I ever touched a chondro, I imagine it was going to like dissolve into dust in my hands, because I was that bad of a, you know, I could, chondros were way too advanced for me. So I always thought that maybe carpondros, because now we're adding carpet python in there, and I can handle carpet python. So I thought about it a few times, and they do have some really cool looks. Everybody, when I was thinking about getting them, everybody kind of bit really hard on the Jagpondro. I mean, and that happens ever once in a while. We're almost going to use big re-insurgence with Jagpondros, and then they're all die down. So everybody kind of jumped up really high with the Jagpondros, and I was thinking about it, and I never did, and never pulled the trigger. And then Buddy Bishami eventually dragged me kicking and screaming into green tree pythons. And then, of course, you know, I got the carpets, I got the green trees, I got the rough scales. It's like I've got pretty much every base covered that makes me happy. They never were appealing to me. I assume that if I had somebody like Bill breeding in my backyard, I'd end up like assimilating one or two by proxy just because we're all those kind of people. It's like, it's a really cool animal. I'll take it. It's like, you know, and then you get home and you're like, what the hell did I just do? So it's one of those things. I don't really have anybody who really works with them near me. So unless Eric starts biting real hard on carpondros, I'm pretty sure I'm going to stay where I'm at. But I do see their appeal, especially the Jagpondros where they kind of like have this -- it looks almost like a Jag with some really nice green in it. And it's like, that's just cool. So -- but I'll probably -- Yeah, definitely some crazy looks, and I'm sure you know the one that -- that picture that gets tossed around on Facebook every once in a while where it -- is this a carpondro? Or is it supposedly -- it's just a regular condro? But man, that sure looks like a Jag -- you know, what I'd imagine a Jagpondro would look like. And I think that's what everyone thinks it is, but at least I've seen it presented. I was, no, no, that's a regular condro. Well, okay. Fair enough. Whatever. I'll do what you've got to do, man. There's one that looks like a normal condro, but he says it's a carpondro. But we'll get to that one. So, I mean, I guess, whatever -- Well, let's bring them on here. Sound good? Yeah, let's bring -- hold on one second. I mean, we're going to bring them on here just so everybody knows. Our guests tonight for the roundtable are Bill Stegel, John M, and John Bataglia, or Swoop. So we're going to be bringing those guys on. We've had numerous -- had these guys on a few times of their own episodes, and now they're back here for the carpondro roundtable. You can go ahead and bring them on, Rob. We'll do this, and then I'll ask them my first question to Swoop, and then we'll move on to Bill. All right. So for now, we have Bill and John Bataglia. Yes. So let's see. Because John M has not -- You don't have John M yet. Yes. Yes. When he's on, we'll let everybody know. Guys, Bill, John, how you guys doing? Welcome back again to Barely at Python Radio. Thank you, guys. It's good to be here. This is John B, Sloop John B. Nice. Hey, guys. Hey, guys. Again, like John said, thanks for having us. This is Bill Stegel. Cool. So all right. One quick interlude for John. I was trying to get the little clip to work, but all I was doing was killing the computer. So I, you know, I guess tried to do it too close to the last minute. Eric will certainly understand that, man, it takes a while for the audio clips to upload. I wanted to play a little clip, a little intro clip there for John B, but didn't quite work out. And now you're adding sound effects in audio clips. You are going to replace me like next week. You know that, right? I'm likely. So sorry about that. I shouldn't have cut in there, but. Yeah, that's all right. I have a funny feeling what you were going to play. Well, we'll just leave that to mystery for everybody as you're thinking about it. Let's start with John. I mean, why don't you tell us kind of, you know, for the sake of some people who are thinking about getting into that a carpondero is a morph. Can you explain what a carpondero kind of is in your mind? And kind of, you know, what got you interested in carpondros? So, sure, what got me interested in them was the first one I ever saw knocked my socks off with the beauty and appearance of it. And I just said, I really like the looks of that snake. I want to learn more about it. And what a carpondero is is a combination of a carpet python and a green tree python. And there are varying percentages of what percentage is green tree and what percentage is carpet python. And people have used a number of various types of green tree pythons and a number of various types of carpet pythons to create carpondros. And when you use a carpet python that is a Jaguar python, people have called them Jagpondros. Right, right. So, I mean, so obviously it's not a morph because carpondros themselves can have morphs because that would technically be a Jaguar carpondero, right? Yes. Okay. So good. And so now you said that the first one you saw knocked your socks off, where did you see it? The first carpondero. The first one I saw was actually one that I now own. And it was produced by Speedy Gonzalez and Mark Spatero. And I have named it since. I've purchased the animal. I've named it Morpheus, which it is a 75% carpondero, which means it was the union of a 50% carpondero with a full-blooded green tree python, which created the 75%. So it's 75% green tree, 25% carpet python, technically actually jungle carpet python. And I saw this animal. This was before Facebook was popular and that we just had the reptile websites, which now don't work much anymore. And I saw it posted. I saw a picture of it and I just thought, oh my gosh, that is one of the most beautiful snakes I've ever seen. It just had blue and green and black and it didn't look like a typical green tree python. Its head was different. It looked exactly like what you'd get if you took the head of a carpet python and morphed it into a green tree python. And I ended up eventually acquiring this animal and I named him Morpheus and he's still in my collection. So it's kind of neat that the animal that I first saw that made me start getting interested and exciting about carpondros I now own. That is cool because I doubt very rarely that the animal that got everybody interested in their type of animal ever gets to somebody's collection. Like I see an adult jungle carpet. Oh my god, I'm totally obsessed with jungles. The guy who's showing me the adult jungle is never really going to sell it to me. He's going to sell me the babies. So it's really cool that you've got the animal that got you kind of head over heels for carpondros. So how many do you currently have? Well, I'm not sure how many I currently have because I have some that I'm not exactly sure if they are carpondros. So I have for sure four adult carpondros and one of them is gravid at this time. It's a female combination of a green tree python with an IJ carpet python and she is currently gravid and I'm terrifically excited about that. The sire is likely gamma 5 although I'm not sure it could be a 75% carpondro sire but I'm pretty sure it's gamma 5. So I should be getting some gamma line jagpondros and carpondros from this union if it all works out. But that is a big yes because a lot of things go wrong more often with hybrid breeding than they do with straight out breeding. Right, those are going to be some weird looking babies. I'm just going to say that right now. I'm really, I'm really hoping I get some offspring from that. I have several years ago I put speedy my 50% carpondro that's half jungle carpet half green tree. I put him in with a diamond jungle and I got eggs from that union that looked a lot just like very busy. They looked a lot like 75% diamond jungle carpet pythons look but I do believe that they are carpondros for several reasons. Most of the clutch went south which is typical for a lot of hybrid clutches. Their head looks a little different to me than other diamond jungle clutches that I've produced. And also one of them has some craniofacial abnormalities and I have seen several craniofacial abnormalities in carpondros at a higher rate than I've seen in other like just straight out carpets or green trees which lead me to believe these things I have are what would be 25% carpondros. That's, that's, that's, that's really cool. So I hope you get some kind of eggs out of these guys that would be crazy looking. So any idea when she's through to lay? You said she's grab it now. Yeah, she had her pre-lay shed a week ago so I'm hoping she'll lay in a couple weeks. And of course I can't wait to see if I get viable eggs from this creature. Definitely keep us up to date on that one. So, all right, Bill, we're going to ask you the same questions. It actually says for the sake of people thinking of a car, the carpondros and more have Bill explain this for you. So why don't you talk about what a carpondro is. And, you know, all putting that forward. Now that I've once again put your Eric's outline and then tell us what got you interested in carpondros and all that fun stuff. Well, Owen, it's still early. You got a lot of time to make up. So, you know, or make it work. I think you're going to be, I think you're going to be okay. I thought, John, hey, John, hey, I'm good to talk to all of you guys. Yeah, John and I are really quite good friends and one of the reasons is because we both have a passion for this, this hybridization. And I thought John did a really nice job describing what a carpondro is. Carpondro is just, you know, a combination of the two words carpet. And then, you know, most people know that carpondros were nicknamed that because they used to be from the carpondro python genus. And they're now in them really probably too many people should grin. So, but they're still called, they're still called chondros, especially by the old school guys. So chondros, green tree pythons, they're the same thing. And John did a good job describing that any of the locality type chondros can be paired with any carpet species or subspecies to produce what we commonly refer to as carpondros. Cool. And, you know, I guess the first time that I or how I became interested was actually seeing John's animal that he's already described Morpheus. And I think I told you guys that I was going to post some pictures on the Facebook group, really Python radio kind of as we're going through the show of some of the animals that we're talking about. And so I posted a picture of Morpheus already and mini lights on that one. And it's a fantastic picture. Very cool. So I saw, I'll go ahead. No, no, I mean, I was just going to say Bill, I mean, like, I know you have a pretty good amount of carpondros. I mean, how many do you have current? I have eight, eight animals currently. I've got that. Now it's being Morpheus for the first time and I kind of want to carpondros. That is sick looking. I'm sorry. Continue. Well, I saw Morpheus first, but then I also saw the sibling to that animal, which John also owns. And that animal's name is Merlin. And I'm going to post a picture of Merlin up also. Beautiful animal. And so I saw these animals approximately the same time and I just immediately, this was before I owned any green trees. I just had carpet pythons. And so I saw these animals only in pictures, of course, and it was intrigued by them. I didn't actually see my first live carpondro until I cast in 2013. And that was when Eugene had a Jagpondro and then I saw John M, he had several carpondros up there. I actually helped him sex a few sub-adult animals at Icast. So I saw those and he also had four or five babies. And in fact, John M had produced, at least to our knowledge, the first red neo carpondro. All the others that I'd ever seen or heard of have been yellow babies. So I was able to see them first and there. And I immediately knew after interacting with them and seeing them that I wanted to get, you know, them and be involved in the project. So that's how I got hooked. That is cool. So, all right, John, we're going to jump back to you real quick. Can you talk about some of the pros and cons of working with carpondros? I mean, what, like, I mean, all we talked about, we touched on a little bit the fertility issue. Is there anything else you can think of that would be a con and then talk about some of the things that make them really a pro? You would want to get involved with them. Well, well, for me, of course, the appearance of them, and I've seen photos of Bill's animals. They're just gorgeous. They're unlike anything else out there. So, you know, having and owning a snake that's gorgeous and that's unique, that not many people have, it's like collecting art. You have something really unique, something really beautiful. I enjoy the heck out of them. I also think that they're relatively easy to keep. I mean, I do think they have some -- actually, the animal itself has some hybrid vigor. I do think they have some -- what's called hybrid vigor, meaning that, you know, they're fairly hardy. I do think the main disadvantages are breeding in that you get low clutch yields, or at least I have. I've had several clutches that were all unfertilized. I've had a clutch where only two -- like, when I breed carpets, my clutches are always 80 percent or above. They're just really, really good clutch rates. And, you know, with the one clutch I produce that I think are 25 percent carpundros, really only three or four hatched out, and one was a very unusual animal that I still don't really know what it was. But anyway, so that, you know, poor yields, poor fertility of the eggs. And then, you know, I've come to believe that the male carpundros do have a fertility problem. There have been -- I'm only aware of two breedings, and I've collected as much data on this as I can. I've talked to everyone that's bred them just about, and I've gotten data. I started collecting data in 2004, and really, the overwhelming majority of breedings occur when you use a female carpundro. Using male carpundros, I've seen it successful only twice. So, those are some things that I think are problematic. But as far as the animals themselves, I mean, they're gorgeous, and I'd like to hear Bill's comments on this, but I find them to be very hardy animals, and I don't need to do anything special or different with them much at all. >> Very cool. Now, when you say hardy, you can just get a question off of the NPR chat. It would be -- you say they're hardier. Is that compared to full blood green tree python? They're a little bit harder than them. >> In my opinion, they're a little easier than just a 100% green tree python. In my experience, in my hands, carpet pythons are a very easy python to keep. Green tree pythons are a okay python to keep. They're not the hardest, but I have had green tree python deaths that just come out of the blue, and I go, "What the heck happened?" And that doesn't happen as much with carpet pythons in my experience anyway. So, I do keep my carpundros at higher humidity than I do my other carpet pythons. I spray there and miss their cages, and I don't really bother with that except for once or twice a week with carpet pythons, but I do it daily with my carpundros. And, again, I'll be interested to hear what Bill's doing because he's got not only a beautiful collection, but every single one of his animals looks in tip-top shape. >> Yeah. All right. Bill, can you talk about the pros and cons of working with carpundros just by what you figured out? I mean, what are some of those? Bill, you still with us? >> Uh-oh. >> Oh, no. Bill, did he come back? >> Bill, are you back? >> He's 50 years. He's going. He's dead. He's over. He's in my basement. He's in my basement right now trying to steal Morpheus. That's what's going on. >> He knows you're distracted, though. >> Right. >> Anyway, I self-muted myself. >> Uh-huh. >> That's your wife that should have that button. >> Exactly. >> She does, believe me, she does. I heard everything that John said, and I was just going to echo a couple of his as far as the pros of keeping them. The characteristics that they have, I love in both carpets and incondros. Specifically, they're much more arboreal than a carpet, but they're larger than carpundros. They just exhibit color and pattern combos that you can't see, and even the most wild designer carpet or congrove. Really, for those reasons, and again, the ability to -- they're a high-risk, high-reward project. The breeding them and producing them are fraught with perils, and all the way -- I mean, even doing that with carpets and green trees or stuff, to try to do it and make the hybrids cross. We'll get into this a little bit later. Either John or I have actually produced it. We are just -- have been trying to, John, longer than I have, but I've poured a lot of effort into getting the information and the right animals, and hopefully this year I'll be successful. I've got some interesting stories to tell about producing carpundros, but it is a high-risk, high-reward project, and part of that is both a pro and con for me. But basically, I just like the animals. If I could never produce them and I just had to keep them, I love them. I go back to you, you say, "You're not a big fan," and I would say Eric was kind of on the fence until he came down here and saw them. That's the way that I was with rough scales. I've seen pictures of them. They look pretty cool, but no, they're not for me. Until I came up and saw yours. Yeah, and Romulus does that. Like I said, in the intro, it's one of those things where I don't have that much exposure to them, but if I did, I probably could be suede either way, especially if somebody was trying to get me on something that looked like morpius. That's a big blue animal. Yeah. Don't condro people lose their minds for a blue animal, and there he is already there as a tarpondro. Yeah, I definitely think condro people lose their mind over blue condros. That picture of Morpheus, that one might be about two years old. I don't remember exactly when I took it. Now, he is darker now. He's getting darker as he gets older. He is fairly dark. The black has overtaken a lot of the blue, so now he's sort of a steel blue. It's not light, powdery blue, like the picture. He's now a darker blue. It's like a dark gray black blue combo, which has its own good look. I just haven't taken a photo of him recently. That's very cool. I will correct one thing Bill said. I might have been successful with the one breeding I had with 25% carpondros. I do have those two offspring that I think I do believe are 25% carpondros, but it's a matter of speculation. The other explanation for the snake laying the eggs would have been that she had retained a term from a breeding a year ago, which is still possible, of course, because I didn't pair her up with anything else. So there you have it. Very cool. Very cool. Yeah. I'm posting a couple of pictures right now on the Facebook group, Murley Python radio. It's 75% carpondro that was produced by Speedy Gonzales that I now have in my collection, but it's definitely blue, gray, blue, steel, blue, and a lot darker than John's animal. Very cool. Very good. So, John, you should go ahead on. No, that's all you. Okay, cool. John, how are you keeping these guys? Are you keeping them more like the carpets, more like your kind roads? I know from what Bill said, they get bigger, but I know you have mostly display setups, right, and the way you keep your fitters? No, I have up in the living areas of my house. I have really nice display areas. And then I have my snake room in the basement where I have more traditional, like, you know, bow files and cubes and things like that, and it's racks and cages that it's not display. It's just sort of the industrial side of my little hobby. But I keep them, and essentially, I agree with Bill, they are definitely more arboreal. And so I keep them in cages similar to what I keep my green tree pythons in, except I always make sure they have a hide because even though green tree pythons rarely use a hide, these will use a hide, these carpondros. So I always keep a hide in the cage. And other than that, I keep them in the same cages as I keep my green tree pythons. I just give them more room. Okay, so are those like maybe four by twos or even larger than that or? Well, the ones I keep my adult carpondros in are 36 by 24 by 24. Okay, very good. Very cool. What about you Bill? Are all yours kind of on the smaller end still at this point? Or do you have some large stuff as well that's taken a cage? No, I've got, it's funny, I've got really three different percentages of carpondros. I've got two 50% carpondros. I've got a yearling and I've got a very large adult proven female. And I keep those really in a combination of a carpet and a green tree cage. In other words, the female that I have, she's over 3,000 grams. She's a 50% green tree, 50% carpets. So she's massive. And I've got her in a three foot by two foot by two foot cage with perches and a hide. And the perches are huge. You know, they're two inch PVC pipes. And she will utilize those perches about half the time and she utilizes her hide half the time. And it's really interesting to see her because sometimes when she purchase, she'll perch like a carpetwood perch. It's more of a draping perch over, you know, there's two perches in her cage. And sometimes she'll utilize both of those perches in a draping manner. And sometimes she coils very tightly around one perch and she perches exactly like a green tree would. It's really, really, really neat to watch. And then the other half of the time, she's down in the hide. So I'm going to post a couple of pictures of her again on both of her perches and positions. And it's hard to gauge her size based on these pictures, but she's massive. Like I said, over 3,000 grams, bigger than any green tree you would ever find. You know, in nature or obviously even if they were fed heavily in captivity, you'll never find an animal as big as this one that perches, you know, the way that a green tree does. So I've got her and I've got a yearling that's at 50%. And then I've got several 75% green trees. They are exclusively perches, never on the ground. They act just like a pure green tree. And I keep those just like I would my adult male green tree pythons. They're in two by two by two cues with a radiant heat panel. And then I have a very rare animal that was produced by John and he's a 62.5% carpondro. He was a carpondro, a carpondro breeding, a very unique looking animal, and it is purely our boreal as well, never on the ground. That's really interesting. And you guys both utilize it substrate, right, as opposed to a like a newspaper, something like that. You're using like a loose substrate? No, mine are all newspaper or puppy pads or what I use. Okay. And I do use a substrate. I use a bleached wood pulp substrate. Okay, very cool. And just one other question I thought of along that one, Bill, while you were describing the stuff you had. Is all that stuff then a chondro combined with a jungle or do you have a variety of carpet pythons represented in those animals? They're all over the place. The small 50/50 animal that I have was produced locally here by a guy named Tony Jerome. And it was a very, very nice, high yellow pure jungle bred to a Jayapura male green tree. The 50/50 adult breeder that I have, you would swear, has jungle carpet in her, but she's actually IJ. Okay. Okay. Very cool. I don't know how to do this exactly. You might be able to do it, Bill. I was scrolling through the photos of my Facebook page. It's called Marilia Trophy Club. And I have a close up shot of Merlin that was taken just a month or so ago. It's been up of Morpheus, and it shows how it's more dark black. It's a head photo, but it shows the color he is now kind of dark, purple-ish, bluish, black. And it's just his head. It's under the photos of Marilia Trophy Club. And I don't know if you could post that on this webcast the way you were doing. And you might be able to find it. It's in 2015, and it's just a close-up of his head and his eye. Okay. Yeah, I can get it for sure. All right. Very cool. John, have you noticed any issues in terms of feeding these guys, either as adults, juveniles, or when they're small? I know you talked about them displaying some hybrid vigor, so I would assume maybe actually they were a little bit easier to feed than some pure green trees of similar size. Well, I haven't had -- I've just had one Neo that was really just a month old, and it was already established. So I haven't -- and the two I have that are what I'm calling 25%ers, they ate right out of the gate, no problem. And Bill, that animal, I'm looking at the one you posted now, that female that looks like a jungle, she is just amazing. That's a 50% animal? That's a 50% yeah, and the carpet in her is I.J. That is just so hard to see, but man, she is gorgeous. I'm going to tell you a little -- I mean, we're getting kind of a little deeper into the show than I wanted to, but she actually underwent kind of a gravid color change where her yellows turned into a bleach white. She actually laid 14 slugs for me two weeks ago. And I know the pain. So what did you pair her up with? I paired her up with a beautiful manicory male. He was small, but they had multiple locks, I'll post a picture of it in a minute. She never saw her ovulate. I just knew she was gravid, she went off feed and was heat-seeking, so I kind of had a feeling that the slugs were coming, but it was interesting that she's now much paler. She's still very, very pretty, but she doesn't have that deep yellow. She's more of a yellow white color. Right. Now, Bill, this will match with what you're describing, but last year I had multiple lockups with my 50% carpondrel male, who I call Speedy. And a beautiful highland type, green tree python, I've named Bill. And they had multiple lockups, and then she just stayed on feed, so I thought nothing ever happened. And one day I thought she looked a little larger than usual. I thought, is she ovulating, but she didn't act like it, and she continued to stay on feed, and she laid a number of slugs as well. And I never even knew she was gravid. She didn't go off feed? No, she never went off feed. I mean, she refused one meal maybe, but she's never been always robust with eating, and it was just like, oh, and then she shed, and I just thought it was a normal shed. But she laid a number of very small slugs, so again, that people listening to this show could hear this kind of thing just doesn't happen very often, was straight out carpet python. Or in my experience, green tree python breeding. Yeah, I'm absolutely more common when trying to get these hybrids to breed. It's just, we talked about it before, high risk, high reward, a project that's just the way it is. So, I mean, what are your guys' take on breeding these guys? I mean, I know it's kind of like one of those, you know, damned if you do damned if you don't kind of tag and go initially if they're fertility. John, what's your strategy for breeding these two species together? Well, you know, I've interviewed a number of people who've been successful breeding them, and maybe, again, it's a big maybe, but I might have bred a couple of 25 percenters, but to me, everyone I've talked to has not done anything all that much different. And I've had multiple lock-ups that each year I have no problem in getting snakes to copulate that are carpandros. The problem has been what goes beyond that. So, I haven't done anything different than what I do with my carpet pythons. I do cycle all my snakes in my snake room. I change the photo period. I change the humidity. And I change the nighttime high and the daytime high. And, you know, I do all those things, and they do lots of breeding activity they copulate, but I just haven't been successful with getting one good clutch of viable carpandro eggs. Other than the two, I might have produced that are probably 25 percenters. But, so, I haven't done anything different, and the people I've spoken with who have been successful, they haven't done anything different either. In fact, one of the people I won't mention his name because I don't know if he wants me to or not, but he was recently successful with a jungle carpet python and a green tree python, and he essentially just put them in the cage together. He wasn't even trying to breathe them, essentially, but they just went at it and produced eggs. Yeah, I think I know who you're talking about, John. He's somebody that lives about 10 miles from me, and I know that he won't mind me mentioning him. I've mentioned his name because I have one of his animals. It's Tony Jerome, and you're absolutely right. He has two marilias in his collection. He owns five snakes, like a rat snake and a couple of marilias, and that's exactly what he did. In his office, he took those two animals and he just put them together, and they locked, and he ended up with, I think, maybe eight or nine eggs. They all looked great. They all hatched, and every baby survived, and stunning, stunning animals. Really some of the best 50% carpondros I've seen, and I think it's because both of the parents were just stunning visual animals. The jungle carpet is very high yellow, very clean, and the green tree is just quite clean and a lot of nice blue. There you go. Yeah, I agree. I've seen those animals, Bill, and I didn't see them until long after the fact. If I had have seen them early on, I would have tried to get one as well. I think it's pretty cool. You have one. I think they're gorgeous. Yeah, well, I know I saw Owen's cheat sheet, and so we'll talk about the Jagpondra market. But yeah, those things obviously flew off the shelf, and if you didn't know him and knew he had the animal, you didn't have a chance of getting one. That I guess that is kind of like you're in the club or you're not. John, I see you don't do anything real different, but with carpets being very seasonal and candros, not really. Could you see that kind of being something that could mess you up a little bit? Well, no, I don't, because then I just, and when I've bred green trees in the past, I've used seasonal fluctuations and it's worked for me. So I just still use seasonal fluctuations, and it's not going to hurt anything with the green trees, and it'll only help with the whatever carpet percentage you're working with. True. Okay, Bill, what is your kind of strategy to tackle this one? Well, kind of like John said, in my place, carpets and green trees both are bred seasonally. It's hard enough to have a season here in Texas when February, you know, it's 82 degrees, but I do have a room where I can control the temperatures and my animals, whether ball pythons or green trees or carpets or carpondros. They all get cycled this time of year, and I don't change the humidity really, but I do have a subtle temperature drop at night. And, you know, again, I really don't breed my green trees any differently than I breed my carpets, except I just keep them a little cooler, and the carpondros, I've just been utilizing the same strategy. And like John said, getting them to lock, you know, if you have a male and you have a female, that's not really, you know, in a lot of the breedings that you do, especially with carpets, ball pythons, getting that lock, you know, you're pretty golden. You know, you think you're going to have a real good chance of success, but that's not the case, certainly with carpondros, that's just the first step, and it's a small one. Right. Okay. I guess we'll address the big elephant in the room, and that is males being infertile. There has been talk about males being infertile. What has been your experiences with this, and do you have any ideas of how that issue can and, you know, can and would be fixed? John, have you had any experience with this? I haven't had any experience with how to fix it. Okay. I, you know, I've tried cooling them a little more to see if that would help. And I have, I noticed in Eric's outline, he talked about combat. I have allowed snakes to have limited combat in my breeding efforts. When I do it, I'm very careful. I'm there. I am watching the whole time. I don't leave them in the cage together. I leave escape routes. I usually do it in a cage where I could actually open the cage, so if one snake wants to get the heck out of there, it can. And I do let them wrestle a bit, and that, that does produce some very aggressive breeding behavior in males that sometimes are not acting very interested prior to that. So, I've done that with male, and actually in my entire collection, the snake that is most prolific in terms of copulating is my 50% carpondrel. I've named Speedy. That, that snake is, you put him in with anything. He goes after it immediately, and he will stay smothering the animal for days on end, even when they're not copulating anymore. Whatever part of the cage the female goes to, and I don't care if it's a green tree or a carpondrel or a jag, he will stay on it. But, you know, you should have named him, you should have named Owen. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. What the hell? Anyway, to the point. Okay, well, I haven't tried him with non-snake species, so maybe I can't totally call him Owen. But anyway, so, you know, I don't really know how to fix it. I don't, I don't know how to fix it. And, you know, the two people that I've heard have been successful when I've talked with them, and I've talked with them at length, they haven't done anything different than what I'm doing. So, yeah. Okay, I mean, do we even think this thing can be fixed? I mean, is it one of those things where it just might be how it works out with these guys? Well, at this point, I think it's just the luck of the draw, because the two people that have been successful using male carpondrels, I don't know if it's just those particular carpondrels were fertile, and most of the other males aren't. But I'll be happy to hear what Bill has to say about it. Yeah, Bill, what do you think about this, and have you had any of that experience with your that are breeding right now? You know, all my experiences, anecdotal, and, you know, just going through and talking to as many people as I can that have been successful and unsuccessful, and I will definitely echo the sentiment that John said, I have not been able to find, and maybe John can reiterate, I haven't been able to find a single 50% carpondrel male that's been fertile. Unless they've been bred to another carpondrel, in other words, and I take that back. The only male that I've known that's been fertile has been a 75% carpondrel male, and it was bred to a 50% carpondrel female. So I can't find any 50% carpondrel males and there have been many, many produced in the last two decades. I don't know if a single 50% male that's been not been sterile or been able to reproduce. So why would a 75% male be able to reproduce? It's, I don't understand the, you know, the science behind that. Certainly, I don't think it's fixable. I think it probably is what it is. And have you tried combating with your guys at all, or are yours just kind of don't even need to do it? You know, the, and again, a limited sample study for me personally, but I have not needed to combat the males. They, you know, you get them in with a female that's ready and they lock up. Okay. The area, the area that I've had trouble, and I don't, I don't know how much you've tried this, but the area I've had trouble with getting lockups is getting male jags to lock up with 100% green trees. That, that I've had limited success with, and that's, that's when I've used the combat. I agree with you. Most other pairings, I, I don't need to do it with the males, but like getting, you know, gamma five, if, if he's a, he's a diamond jungle jaguar. If I throw him in with any other carpet, he locks up really within half an hour. When I throw him in with a green tree python, and I've thrown him in with several female green tree pythons, he sometimes acts as if there's no other snake in the cage. Like he's not even recognizing there's a female in there. And then when I have encouraged him with some combat, then he has gotten more interested. Hmm. Interesting. One thought in terms of male fertility or the 50% male fertility, that the thing that jumps to my mind might be as induced ovulators that partially right at least based on the anti-penal structures of the male. I wonder if those 50% males have kind of odd or unusual structures that just aren't causing the female to ovulate at the right time to get you fertile eggs. You know, so you're getting copulation, but I think going back to Owens attempts to artificially incentivize snakes, like if those, they have such influence on female structures, if they're not. If you don't mimic that, then it's very difficult to induce ovulation at a time where it'll actually result in fertile eggs. I see. No, I mean, that makes sense. So maybe they're not maybe they're not sterile, but it's structural. And I forgot Rob knows like all the backlog episodes of NPR, like in his brain. So, you know, he brought up the snake artificial insemination. I even forgot about that. So, that is something... Well, I mean, you did remember to bring up the... As far as I know, you're still not a proven free girl. Damn it, you keep this set. Anyway, yeah, always. Now, is there kind of like a theory thrown around up there? I know John just mentioned about a jagged male with a pure green tree female. Do we have a... Which way of it goes? Is it easier maybe with a carpet male or is it easier with a condromail and a carpet female? I mean, is there a pairing that we like to do? Well, I do think it's generally easier with a carpet female and a green tree male. At least when I look over the successful breedings, that's been done more often. And so, I do right now my collection. I have a jagged pandro that is... Unfortunately, it's gotten very high neuro. But it was done by producing an IJ jaguar female with a male GPP. And the breeder was Dan Kraft. And it's a very pretty snake, but it's got really bad neurological problems. No. Which I don't think has anything to do with it being a hybrid. It's just that goes along. Some jags are like that. Okay, Bill, have you tried? I know you have a bunch of carpondra. Have you tried making your own with your carpets and your green trees? Yes, and I'll kind of echo John's sentiment that just from the research that I've done, it's much more successful to get a green tree male and a carpet female to get that first generation. Okay. And that's what I've done this year. I told you about the one pairing that I had in attempt to make 75% carpondros, I've read a pure green tree male to a 50% carpondra female. And the other pairing that I have this year involves one of Speedy Gonzalez's 75% green tree carpondros. And I've got that bled to a pure green tree female. So, we'll see how that happens. She's actually grabbed it. That's great news. She's in her post-obulation shed now. We'll see what happens with her. Awesome. I'll be very cool. All right. So, if I'm lucky enough to get some locks, what is your process to getting the eggs? We have no control over this, but do you do any things with the temps? And what do you do once you get the eggs? How do you set them up? Well, I haven't done anything different. Well, first of all, with green tree pythons and with carpet pythons, once they're gravid, I make sure they have a heat source all the time. Because in the breeding season, I've dropped my nighttime low. Once they're gravid, I raise that nighttime low, and I raise the daytime high. I want to make sure they have plenty of basking opportunities to just nicely cook those eggs. So, I take away the more market nighttime lows. I raise that, and I raise the daytime high. I make sure they always have good basking opportunities. With green trees in particular, and now I have this gravid, 50% carpundro. I don't like them to have a real high perch when they're gravid, because there are cases of green trees laying eggs from their perch, and the eggs just hitting the floor and not being viable, even though they were fertilized, and they don't go on to develop. So, I think taking away a high perch is a good idea when you have a gravid carpundro. Makes sense. What are the temps that you're setting the eggs up at? I set most of my eggs up between 88 and 89 degrees. Okay, it's normal Python. A little bit warmer, I think. Yeah, I, you know, when I bred some green trees a few years back, in fact, I think Bill has one of the ones I produced. I did a little bit differently with some green tree Python breeders. They sort of have, you know, lower temps, and then a higher temp, and then lower the last few weeks, even with carpet Python eggs, when they're in the final week, sometimes it looks like they're, there's more sweating going on. I sometimes will lower the temperature a little bit the last week. Okay. And any idea how long it would take to, like, is it the normal patching process, or is it a little extended, a little shorter? In my very limited experience with the one clutch that maybe are 25 percenters, it was pretty much exactly the same as carpet pythons. Okay. Cool. And Bill, I know you said you haven't had any, like, viable eggs, but are you gearing up pretty much do it the same way, set it up like a carpet python egg or so, or condro eggs? Since the pairing that I have left is going to be potentially 88 percent green trees. I'm going to treat them just like I do my pure green trees. Okay. That makes it so awesome. I'll separate the eggs. I will candle them. I'll put them in a substrate list egg box and incubate them straight back at 87.5. Sounds about right. I'm actually toying with the idea of letting maternal incubation take place with my carpondro this year. Yeah. I mean, oh my God. I don't know why. Okay. I know this is most of my other answers on this show have been maybe based on some facts or some evidence or some data. All I can tell you guys is I don't know why I'm just getting this hairbrained idea that I should do it. And it might just be because this could really be a clutch that I want everything to go right with. And I sometimes think Mother Nature does things better than we ever do, but having a snake in a box isn't exactly Mother Nature, so I don't know. I'm thinking about it. Well, you might have more luck with her doing it. I mean, who knows? She might know a little bit more of what they need to do. Yeah, I don't know. I will see. I mean, it would be kind of cool to see. I mean, I was fun to watch. And, you know, of course, I'm saying this and it's not my animal, you know, far away and it's not my clutch. Yes. So I'm like, do it. I will never be. John, have you been? Okay. Good rub. Good rub. John, have you done internal with your carpet or with your regular Congress? I haven't. And I've always wanted to. I always chicken out at the last minute because I just feel out controlling so much better with my incubator and can keep an eye on things. And so I've never done it. And I want to do it one of these days, but because I'm not doing any like, just, I don't know what word to use, but I'm not doing like any mundane clutches. I'm only doing really extravagant stuff over the past few years. I haven't done anything sort of normal. So I haven't really had a chance to do it. But before I retire from this hobby, I would like to do MI once. Well, that would be cool. Bill, would you do MI with your carpondros? Absolutely not. That's a smart man. Well, right then. Good. I've never done maternal incubation, first of all, in any of my animals. So I should probably experience that first. And John, I think John said it best. These are snakes in a box and these are hybrid snakes that Mother Nature never intended to produce. So, I mean, if we're going to be Frankenstein, let's just take it all away to the box. Yeah, and that's the smart answer. That's probably what I'll do. I don't know why I've been having these dreams lately about maternal incubation with this, but it might just be. John, follow your dream band. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's just funny. John, these are all things. Something has been done. Pardon me? Sorry. Is it, you know, is it something that you've seen done elsewhere? No, I haven't. Yeah, not with carpondros. No, it doesn't make any sense to do it with carpondros, because green trees don't maternal incubate. So, I mean, they do, but it's just still not a good idea. Right. I know for sure. Exactly. I mean, I know, buddy, if you show me, you can call me, he has to, like, lock his female chondros in with their eggs to make sure they take care of their babies. I mean, the first instant she has the freedom, she's gone and leaves them there. So, it's one of those things you can kind of hope the carpet python thing takes over. Yeah. No. It would be interesting to see, but I'm a little curious about the hatchlings, because I was shocked to realize the size of a chondro hatchling compared to a carpet python hatchling when I first figured that out. The chondro babies are tiny. Yeah. So, are we somewhere in the middle? Are we smaller? And I know you were talking about how carpondros are yellow, and then we had that one red. Neil, is it that some of them come out with that color change yellow to red? Do they all come out yellow and red? Or are we looking at where they will come out with patterns like a carpet python? Well, John, I don't mean to jump in front of you, John, but I was just going to say, it depends if you're talking about 50% carpondros or 75% carpondros. See, now you're making it harder for me. So, I can just say that I've dealt with 50% carpondro babies because I helped Tony Jerome get several established that, you know, that he had trouble getting going, and I can just say that they were large. They were much larger than, yeah, much larger than green trees. I mean, I'm sorry, much larger than, yeah, pure green tree babies. And I got them established just like I would a regular carpet baby that was a trouble feeder. You know, I would, you know, try the live hopper mouse. I put the hopper mouse in a bag. And then eventually I suspect that it's, but I never tried the strategy of, you know, with a green tree baby roll. You'll actually, you know, just try to provoke it into eating by almost testing it to death until it strikes because they just look so different. The 50% are looking at just like carpet pythons. Okay. And your question, your question about the green, the yellow versus the red, you know, again, that was in a 63% clutch. That was John M's clutch where he had, I think, six or seven babies, all of them were yellow and one were red. And those were, I saw those babies and they were much more green tree-like the way they perched, the way they fed. And I know he got those babies going like you would a baby green tree. So, it depends a lot on the percentage. So increasing green tree blood is you have the neocolers and obviously they have the more characteristics of green tree pythons. Yes. Okay. John, is that kind of what you were getting into? Yeah, Bill has more experience with seeing the neos than I do, so I, it makes sense what he said. I had one 75% snake that a 75% carpondro that I got when it was about six weeks old. And it was a rather large appearing, larger than a regular green tree python neo at that age, but it had already been eaten a few meals, so it was about the same. Okay. Bill, jumping back to those babies, like you said you may have had a little bit of issues with them feeding. What are some of the things you did to get them to eat and what prey were you offering? Yeah, if I remember right about half the clutch, eight, there were, I think eight babies, but half the clutch ate immediately for Tony. And I think his first offering may have been, and this was his, you have to remember, this was his first clutch of anything. He'd never produced a green tree. He'd never produced a carpet clutch. This was his first clutch of snakes to produce ever. Can you imagine that? That would be weird. Yeah. And he didn't know exactly what to do, he was offering them very small, like day old mice pinks. And as you know, baby carpets respond to movement and size. And he said they did not respond to a baby mouse pink that crawled up in the corner and just went to sleep. When he went with mouse fuzzy, he got better response. You know, I believe, like I said, maybe half the clutch ate. I took, you know, and just did the typical carpets strategy. Let's do things like let's just put them in a different environment. I gave them bigger meals, live meals. And I think I remember I took four. I got two to eat pretty quickly. He took the other two back. I can't remember if he assisted them, I assisted them. But eventually they all came around and it wasn't a big, you know, it wasn't a big drawn out process. And these were big animals and they had a lot of reserve. They weren't like baby green trees that if, you know, if you don't get a meal in a baby green tree, really relatively quickly within, you know, a couple of months, it's just going to die of starvation. You know, it was a couple of months before some of them ate, but once they finally did, they came around like gangbusters. Very cool. Very cool. So you'd hit on this earlier, but I guess it kind of leads into the question then talking about that clutch that he had had. What's the market like for these guys? Just generally don't even have the morphs yet, but just in terms of, okay, so you had the men acquire a jungle. You know, I think a lot of it, and to be honest, most of the 50% carpenters I've seen have not looked that good. You know, they tend to be muddy as adults. These things when they came out, they were very clean, you know, I mean, very, very clean and they still are. So, you know, the market, I would say, what he produced, you know, I mean, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know exactly what he paid, but you're talking about $1,000 mark for a 50% very clean baby. And as the percentage green tree goes up, you know, the price goes up as well. Sure. Yeah, it's interesting. Listen, it sounds like there's a relatively small number of animals overall. And it's probably for those really short specimens that I'm sure the price goes pretty high. So, relatively a limited market, limited by a limited demand, but for the choice of animals that can catch the price to go up, I'm sure. Yeah, I mean, I think so. Yeah, I mean, I think so. I think it's, yeah, it's definitely supply and demand and there just aren't a lot of them being produced and the ones that are that look really good. I know who produced the Jagponders this year. Was it Aaron? Yeah, Aaron and Mark Buhali produced them and they were a really good looking clutch and they were getting very good prices. At least they had them advertised at good prices. Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, the whole thing is always difficult, right, because it seems like if you find, if you have the right buyer, and for the carpenters, it seems like there's a little bit more of a cultivated market. On some of this stuff and more seemingly random pairings of different species, maybe it's a, you know, a Morelia and a last species together or a carpet combined with a scrub, something like that. People put a high price. It is genuinely a, one of a kind or a rare animal, the realm of all type on these sorts of things, but a lot of times I think that creates a false sense and someone who doesn't have enough market sense of how these things play out to realize, well, they might find one buyer for that, but that's not necessarily a $5,000 snake just because it's a normal ball python, that sort of thing. I agree with you. Yeah, I actually think the hybrids that seem to command the highest prices are the hybrids that are done with green tree pythons, that mixing with all the other ones that they've been bred to is what people want most of all. And I think that market's a little better than some of the other hybrid markets. I've seen people just on King Snake or Fauna Classified trying to sell some hybrids that nobody will buy for a couple hundred bucks. So I don't think it's the idea of a hybrid per se, but I think some of these hybrids, and I think Bill and I both have talked about this, but some of these contral hybrids, they just are so beautiful. And even if you're not into snakes, I have people that come over and visit friends with a family that aren't, quote, reptile people, they'll come in, they'll look into a hybrid cage and they'll go, wow, that's beautiful. And speaking of something, Bill, you said earlier, I agree with you. A lot of the 50% hybrids don't look so hot, but I'm telling you, and I know you know this just because you've seen photos, but my 50% speedy, that snake has dropped dead gorgeous. The yellow on that snake is more intense yellow than any snake. It reminds me of the yellow you see in a neo-green tree. It's just so good. And it looks here like your 50% female is gorgeous as well. Absolutely. Yeah. And I know, I agree with you, those 50% that Tony just produced, that you have one, I think those snakes are going to do nothing but get better. They have all the earmarks of that. I just posted a picture of Speedy. I had downloaded before the show, so it's on the Facebook. I'm really Python radio too. Beautiful snake. Thank you. It looks similar to my female. So, yeah, the high yellow, incredible yellow. You guys think as some of the carpet python morphs become a little less expensive, particularly, I suppose we would, you know, the reason we see it with jags so much, right, is because it's a incomplete dominant gene. Do you think any of the other carpet mutations will get mixed in? Or is it a little likely to be held back, at least in the case of those that are recessive? I'll let you take a stab at that first. Well, I think that definitely the incomplete dominant carpet gene will be worked in there first. In fact, I read last year, a zebra male to a green tree female. I had multiple lots. She didn't go. I'd love to see what that looked like. But I definitely think. You got quite, really. If Eric were here, that's what he'd be saying. That's what he would be saying. You're probably saying it right now with me. But I just can't see the, you know, obviously albinos, what comes to mind, you know, do you try it so hard to produce them anyway? Do you try to produce and produce hats? Then what are you going to do with that, you know? I don't know. I'm not saying it would never be done, but I think, you know, I think you're going to see things like the incomplete or the co-dominant stuff come out first, if it's even possible. You know, I see that Eric here was asking if, oh, I'm sorry, John, go ahead. You go ahead and ask the question. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah. No, I see Eric had asked you if you thought that the albino carpet and albino condro were likely to be on the same chromosome so that you could actually pair them together and produce all homozygous albino. If you were a betting man, I don't think this has been done. And I think the, you know, certainly what you alluded to would be that until there's more albino condros, I think that's a pretty unlikely pairing. Yeah, probably it reminds me years ago when MariliaPythons.com was kind of active and there was a lot of activity. There was a guy who paired, what did he pair with a Bolins? It was like an IJ. Yeah, it was an IJ with a Bolins and you should have seen the response. It was just pretty funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like he was hanging babies up from the neck and turning them a fire, you know. And in this regard, I do want to just mention, you know, I know I don't have any problem with people who say, you know, I would never buy a hybrid. I don't like it. I don't believe in it. I like my collections to be just species specific. And I have absolutely no problem with that. It just likes and dislikes. That's fine. You know, more hybrids for me. I love the hybrids, you know. But to take the argument that it's somehow adultering nature in a bad way, that argument I find kind of preposterous. You know, the chance of any of our little snakes and boxes working their way back to Australia or New Guinea to populate the island is ludicrous. So, you know, we have snakes and boxes and we have snakes and boxes because we think they're cool and we like to look at them. And, you know, just, I'm fine with people saying they don't want hybrids, but don't face the argument on somehow it's going to water down things. Already the snakes we have in our boxes look nothing like the snakes that are in the wild, at least half the time. Nothing like it. We have selectively bred for generations. And the stuff we have in our aquariums and boa file cages doesn't look anything like what's crawling around in New Guinea right now. And so I just think it's kind of, that's kind of a silly argument, but that's my opinion. I think Eric's cheering right now. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Well, other than the zebras that you were trying to, has that actually been done yet still or would users have been the first? I'm not aware of that particular carpondro morph being produced. I'm not aware of it. I don't think so. I'm not aware of it either. I was really holding my breath for that. Wow. I guess the question becomes, are there any other incomplete dominance or I guess the polygenic, right? I'm sure Owen, you might hook Owen when you mix a tiger carpet in. Maybe that's the ticket to get it. Well, that would be it. Aaron's was a tiger jag that was the parents. That's right. That's right. It was a tiger jag. That would be the next step. I think is, could you put a zebra jag in the carpondro or would you dip into something else, like say, Morelli Caronata? I think this is causing me great pain to do that, which you mix that into a chondro. I've had this discussion with people who asked me if breeding chondro to a rough scale would be cool. I said it would all depend on one thing, if the scales are rough in the battle chondro. If everything's smooth, no one's going to care. So, like, kind of along those lines, would that be something you think that somebody's going to get their hands on with a hybridization that you do? I was just going to say, John, I only answered that I have heard rumor, and it is nothing but rumor, that there is a group in Sydney that has done that, and they did it quite some time ago, and that it was nothing special to look at. See, there you go. If it was a rough green tree python, everyone would be freaking out. That's a good point. For me, I'm sure as creative as everyone is, and everyone's different artistic interests, I'm sure everything is going to be tried at some time or another. For me, I'm sort of focused on the Jagpondros and the Carpondros, not working with any different morphs than what I have, and that's my current goal, just trying to get that figured out, but I don't know, Bill, about what else you have on your plans. Not really. I agree. When you have a beautiful, healthy, adult, female, breedable green tree python, I'm torn about what to put in with her. I love carpondros, and the risk reward with carpondros is so high that it's certainly not like I'm taking every carpet I have and putting it with every green tree I have. It's tough decisions need to be made, and I just love both projects, and I'm like John, I'm just happy to work right now with what I have. Are these produced regularly? Would you say every year, semi regularly, Eugene still producing that he calls the Chavirida, either of you? I don't know. I don't know if Bill knows. I don't know. I haven't heard too much out of Eugene in the last couple of years, really, since I cast was the last time I saw any animals that came from his facility. Fair enough. Beyond that, would you say a cluster year more than that, less common than that in the U.S. here? I'm looking back through some of my data, and I don't know if I see any that had back-to-back pairing, I mean back-to-back years for the same female, so I don't know. I would doubt it. I'm only aware of a couple of clutches that were produced this last year. With social media and the sharing of information on Facebook and other ways, that captures a lot of it, but not all of it. I was only aware of a couple of successful breeding last year of Carpondros in the United States. I don't know if you guys heard me mention it when Owen and I were talking earlier, but I know I've seen this picture on Facebook. I believe coming in from Europe that's purportedly a pure green tree that has this purple blotching, and it looks like a Carpondro, but it's prevented repeatedly. I know this is a European line, this is one of the "out of Switzerland" or something like that, and this is just the natural form look, despite the fact that it appears to be a Carpondro. Have you guys seen that snake that I'm talking about? I have seen that photo, and honestly the first thing I thought was that that photo was a gimmick. I had a hard time believing that was an actual snake. I'm not saying I'm correct in that. I'm just saying that was my first impression of looking at the picture. I certainly see where you're coming. It certainly doesn't, it would be a very unusual green tree python if it looked like that, and it was a pure green tree python. Bill, have you seen that picture? I think I've seen the picture that you're referring to, and I, like John, immediately dismissed it as "doctor to doctored photo." There's certainly a lot of fraud out there, not just in green trees, Carpondro carpets, the whole... John, what was that recessive, all black animal that was supposedly come out of somewhere in Eastern Europe? The panther ended up being spray painted, spray painted, yeah, for potential frauds, obviously with anything. You have to know your source and all that stuff, but I can just tell you, before the show came on, there was some stuff going on in the chat room about people being concerned. That high-grade Carpondros could be passed on as pure green trees, and my answer to that is, why would you? Why would you want to do that? The market value for a 75% Carpondro or an 88% Carpondro, even if it looked like a pure, the market value is higher. I don't understand why anybody would, knowingler, obviously, you're going to know you have it, and why would you pass it off as such? I agree with John that if I lived in Australia, I'd be very spooked about these crosses potentially being released into the wild where they could procreate, but here in the United States, it's impossible. I agree with a lot of the sentiments that John said about the hybrid projects. Could you see it going the other way, Bill, where somebody takes a green tree python and tries passing it off as a high percentage? Because you have that one Carpondro. It's a Carpondro, right? The green one? Yeah. It kind of really looks a lot like a green tree, but here's a Carpondro, and I know that to the untrained eye, somebody could mistake that for a pure green tree. Could you think about that as somebody might be trying to pass off pure green trees as Carpondros? Yeah, that's a very good. I'm going to post a picture of that animal that you're talking about, but yes, I think this is what you're talking about. Yeah, I could see that happening, but again, anybody that's going to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on an animal should probably do their research. I have a whole lot. I don't have that strong of a feeling. If somebody wants to pass a pure green tree off as a Carpondro, well, how is that going to jack things up when they breed it? They're going to pass off as a... I'd be much worried about the other way around where somebody sells a Carpond as a pure green tree, and that's not going to happen. It's very, very unlikely to happen. I've seen a lot of Carpondros. I've seen a lot of different crosses all the way from 25% green tree to 75% green tree. Like I said, until the 88% green tree comes out, somebody that is a relative expert isn't the right word, but somebody that's seen enough of both pure green trees and Carpondros can tell the difference. Okay. See, I haven't been exposed to them that much, so... Yeah, in fact, I saw an ad recently that was on, I don't know, one of the reptile posted classifieds, and somebody was saying they were selling a Carpondro along with a jag, and the snake that was in that photo was not a Carpondro, and that was just clear to anyone who had seen a few. And they were just trying to sell it as such. It was just... It was not a Carpondro. It really looked like just a regular carpet python, actually, of some type. Do you find it more that people, I guess, the uneducated are walking around out there with maybe what could be an integrated carpet python, thinking it's a Carpondro? That's a tough question. I don't know, again, anybody that's seen enough 50% Carpondros, I mean, it's just not that hard to tell the difference. Okay. And I guess my last question would be, for John, you were talking about breeding gamma stuff into Carpondros. What do you think the diamond blood is going to do once it gets in there? Oh, I hope it will make it very clean and bright. You know, and that's where I have my fingers crossed that gamma 5 is a sire for this Carpondro. I think those will be pretty sensational jag pandros, and I'm really excited. And even if it isn't, if the only other males I had in with her were the 75%ers. You know, something good's going to happen. But I would be hoping for very bright, very clean, and hopefully with some neat, heavy banded pattern jag pandros. That would be kind of cool. I'm interested to see what happens with the colors on those guys. That'd be kind of weird looking. And if it's weird looking, I'll take a look at it regardless of how I feel about keeping them. I still want to see it. So, that would be cool. Good luck. Good luck, John. Good luck with that. Thank you. Thank you. And Bill, this Carpondro that you just posted up, is that a 75%er? Yes. Yeah, that's gorgeous. That's a gorgeous snake. I lost that animal. You know, we talked earlier about the hardiness of Carpondros compared to carpets and green trees. And I've lost two adult animals. I've lost one adult Carpondro. In fact, that picture that I just posted and I lost one adult green tree just out of kind of out of the blue, not expecting it. But I agree, John, I think they're very hardy animals. You give them the right conditions. And I haven't noticed a significant difference in them being more hardy or less hardy than captive-bred green trees. Cool. Very cool. Well, do you guys want to kind of recap your projects for this season, both in terms of Carpondros and other things? And then we're here hopes and dreams, particularly with the Carpondros for next year. Okay, I'll go first. So every pairing I did this year were hybrid pairings. That's all I did. And pretty much every female I had, whether I had two -- well, actually, I did one pairing that was a straight-out green tree pairing, if it works. It's a beautiful maniquari green tree with my highland, very blue green tree python. And that would produce some animals that have good potential for a lot of blue green trees. That's the only kind of straight-out green tree python pairing. All my other pairings were hybrid attempts. I've had a lot of copulations. I have one 50% Carpondro that is gravid, and I'm hoping to get some good eggs from her in a couple weeks. My fingers are very crossed, and the sire is either gamma 5, which is a diamond jungle jag of gamma line, or the sire is a Carpondro. I don't know, but I'll certainly be able to tell from what comes out of the egg. I've been pairing my gamma line female, which I'm calling gamma 11, with speedy, with multiple copulations. She's a 50% Carpondro. At one point, I thought she was gravid because she was basking in an unnatural position, but she's continuing to eat, and I don't know what's happening with her. I may only get one clutch this year. I have another green tree python that I've tried with 50 and 75% Carpondros and with gamma 5. What can I say? She's a slut. She gets around, but I haven't seen any signs that she is gravid in any way. Really, what I'm hoping to do is to continue. My biggest interest, really, of all is jagpondros. I just want to get more of the colors of green tree pythons into jagpythons, and I want to do that through jagpondros. That's my ultimate goal. I think my totally ultimate goal would be to create a blue, green jagpondro. I haven't seen one exactly yet like that, but that's my biggest goal. It's so weird looking. Well, we briefly discussed my one burnout this year, which was the pure manic gory male that was bred to the 50% Carpondro female, and she slugged out, but she's back on feed. She's doing great. I posted a picture to her. She's just a fantastic animal. I'll totally let her rest this year. She's a proven breeder, Brandon Osborne, produced 75% green tree carpondros with her two years ago, and I acquired her from him. I'll let her chill this year and enjoy her and try her something else the following year. I still have a project that I'm really excited about. It would be potentially the first 88% green tree carpondros. That was one of Speedy Gonzalez's 75% Carpondros. It was Bello. He's that one that's kind of that steel blue. I think I posted a picture of them breeding, or I will. He bred a pure phoque green tree, and she's gravid. She's in her post-obulation shed right now, so I'm hopeful that she'll lay some fertile eggs. I've got a couple of designer green tree pairings this year. I've got a high blue pairing and a melanistic pairing. The melanistic pairings are repeat from last year. As far as future, man, I can't wait to pair my rough scales. I love those things now. Totally addicted to them. They're fantastic animals. They're one of the high people coming to my snake room, and they gravitate the two things. They gravitate to the carpondros and the rough scales. That's snake people and non- snake people alike. I'm looking forward to that. Rob, right up your area, I've got a pair of rhino rat snakes that have a couple of years to go yet before they're ready, but I've really enjoyed messing around with those. They're beautiful, unique animals. I don't have any clobards at all in my collection. I've really enjoyed picking those up. I did it on a whim at Tinley's store. Bill, because Bill at Tinley is watching a kid skip through a candy store. I'm like, "He goes running, and I'm like, where's he going?" He goes back and he's got a skull that he got from Ari. He goes, "Keep this behind your table." Then he goes off again. Then he comes back and he's like, "I got these." I'm like, "All right," and then he's like, "How much for that caramel tiger jag?" I'm like, "You? That?" So he goes, "Good, box it up." I'm like, "You Jesus." So yeah, I mean, he was all over the place. It was great. I know, I couldn't help myself. You're right. I was like a kid in a candy store. In fact, I bought those rhinos, and I had to leave early Sunday, so Zach wore them for me. Then I think Eric ended up, Eric or Zach brought them back to Philly and then shipped them to me out. I don't even remember, but. Yeah, they almost didn't make it in the box. If they had not been watching me when I was unpacking myself, I probably would have ran off with them, but yeah. They're really, really cool to see. Yeah, well, I appreciate your help. I've asked you several questions about them, and it's always nice to have a go-to guy when you're working with new stuff. So those are definitely new for me. Then, again, to try to branch out and learn more about snakes, I acquired some Borneo Shorttails. I've got a pair that should be ready to breed this upcoming season. So, Matt and Lon, those are my boys for those. Those are your carpet fest auction winning practices. So, all right. Well, guys, thank you both very much for coming on. Now, I want you guys to kind of just jump over. I mean, give a shout out how people can get in contact with you throughout your websites, your email addresses. John, go ahead and throw out all your stuff that you want to throw out there. All right, so I'm now on Facebook. I just joined last year. I'm a little slow to get up to speed. Yeah, yeah. You'll be tweeting next. Who knows? I don't know. So, I have two Facebook pages. One is called Marilia Trophy Club, and the other is just my name. John Batalia, B as in boy, A-P-T-A-G-L-I-A. The Marilia Trophy Club Facebook page is just solely my reptile stuff. And then my John Batalia page, I have friends and family and reptiles and everything. That's a hodgepodge. I have a website, and it's called mariliatrophyclub.com. And those are the best ways to get ahold of me. There's a way to contact me on the website by sending an email on the contact page. And so that's easy to do. Awesome. Bill? Probably the best way to contact me. I'm all over Facebook, and I'm Bill Stiegel. It's S-T-E-G-A-L-L. I also have a business page on Facebook. It's Phoenix Reptiles, Phoenix like the city. I'm happy to answer any questions about carpondros or green trees or carpets. I do want to give a shout out Owen and Rob. I think maybe John too, I'm going to be hosting the second annual Southern Carpet Fest on April 30th. And that's going to be a big one. We had about 30 or 40 people here last year. And if I had to guess, it's going to be 75 to 100 this year. So a lot of people have some people coming in from the West Coast. And I know Eric is committed and I think he's going to show Owen and one of his overnight back. A big bag. Eric and I are having what we have usually every couple of months, which is a meeting about the radio show. And item number two is Owen going to Southern Carpet Fest. Big question Mark. So we will see when we have that meeting where we sit and what's going to go on with that. But I heard it was a great time and Eric may have drank too much. Which night? It's going to be a big deal. I'm not doing it by myself. We've got Matt Morris coming in from Austin, Evan Broder's local, Austin Warwick, Dave Pirlich. And a handful of other people are going to be working on this. But you know what Carpet Fest is. It's just a big party. And it doesn't have to be not Carpet people. These are Carpet people, Condro people, Ball people. Anybody that has a reptile and can get here, they're invited to come April 30th. Very cool. Hopefully we can get that going. I'd love to go. So if you're in the area, definitely check that out. Gentlemen, thank you both for coming on again. I guarantee you will end up having you guys back on for something. Maybe when you guys hatch out to more Carpondros or when Eric finally wants his fix of them. So again, thank you guys for being on and we'll catch you guys a little bit later down the road. Okay. Great talk to you all. Thank you. Bye guys. Good night guys. Bye. Well, Rob, that was a good show and we didn't burn down the studio. So let me run to the after over. Before I do do something horrible. So next week we have Carpet Fest with Carollette. And I think is how you pronounce it. I can't read. Well, that is going to be a cool show. It's getting back to the Carpet Vythons. I know we kind of deviated for a few shows and now we're always going right back to it. For the shout outs, definitely go over to and vote for us on the reptile report. For radio show of the year, you can vote once a day. Go on, vote. And then the next day, vote again. I don't care if you have to put a stupid little alarm clock on there. It would mean a lot to us to kind of get that recognition. We do try to put on a good show for you guys every week. So if you can jump over there, you have to register on the reptile report to vote. So go ahead and do that. Maria Python radio, if you like the podcast and would like to learn more about Morelia, you can check out your local library now. I mean, you can check out Morelia Python radio.com. If you have any questions about the show, you should guess if you want to call us out on a mistake that we made, which we do do a lot, you can email us at info@moreliapythonradio.com. You can also go check us out on facebook.com. Just type in Morelia Python radio. Give us a like. You can also follow us on Twitter. I did not know we had a Twitter. That would be actually a Python at Twitter. Basically right now, as I'm trying to make Eric say, "God damn it, Owen, as much as possible. I'm just playing right back from Florida." So you can subscribe to the show on iTunes or whatever podcast app you have been used. Help us spread the word. Share the shows that you like. Post up comments. If you want to join the chat session that we have going on on Facebook every show, send a message to myself, or Eric, and we will add you over there. A lot of times, any pictures that we're talking about are posted up there. You can also ask questions during the live show. And we'd appreciate if there are any breeders that would like to volunteer their time. They come on to the show. It's always a good time. We are not meeting people, mostly. And of course, we will ask the questions that you want us to ask. And no one cares what you're doing, Eric. Get out of here. That's kind of the way it goes. Also, if you're on Facebook, go over and give a like to the Marrelia pick of the week. You can post up all the pictures and any news you have going on with your snakes, Marrelia or not, just know for sale ads. That's the only rule. For Eevee Marrelia, I don't know why I'm doing his stuff, but check out -- come to the show -- check out their website, eeveemorrelia.com. Email him at Eric@eeveemorrelia.com. You can also go over to Facebook and look up Eevee Marrelia and like them on Twitter and Instagram and all the other fun stuff. Rob, what would you like to put out there? Go ahead and throw all your stuff out there. Okay. Well, on Facebook is either High Plains Herpeticulture or Robstown. Either one of the work messaging, I suppose, works better as Robstown just because it comes into that personal message box, which is a little easier to get to. Website is rhinorep.com or High Plains Herp.com, both go to the same place, something that I'm working on. Hopefully, an anticipation of this season. I have big hopes and dreams, and I hope I get it done. And certainly, if I start getting good questions of eggs, that'll be a real motivator to get that done and get that to where I want to be. So, I think that's about it. Very cool. For me, what I will say is you can go to roge-reptiles.com, check out all this stuff we got on Rogue, as well as Family Trees, Lineage, Biosome of the Animals, as well as Animals for Sale. Also, if the animal is not listed for sale, it's not for sale. Stop asking me if I'm selling my rough scales. I'm not. So, there's that. You can also go on Facebook to come and look up Rogue-reptiles on Facebook.com, give us a like. If an animal is for sale, it will go on the Facebook page a week before it goes on the website, as well as Kingsnake and Pauna. This way, the Facebook users get first crack at the animal. I do have a show coming up for the 27th of February in Hamburg, Pennsylvania. If you're in the area, please come by, check us out, say hi to us, and it's a good part of the Hamburg show. You have myself Howard Redding, Jason Bailin, and Eric Kohler, and I believe I'm bringing my hobbit with me this time. So, Eric will be with me, I think, from noon on. So, if you're in the area, definitely come, say hi, check us out. That's all we got for you guys this week. While, say, thank you all for listening, and we're going to catch everybody next week for some more Moralia Python radio. Good night. Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me at the linebacker in NFL, where's the reptile breeder and the owner of Projekt. I've been hurtful since I was a boy, and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markland and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. 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