Morelia Python Radio

Carpet python discussions

Episode # 232 In this episode it will just be Eric and Owen talking about carpet pythons. We will hit on the breeding season, what is going on with other breeders collections and we will be answering some of the questions that have been sent into us. If you want to follow along in our weekely chat group on Facebook, just send us a message and we will add you in. Check out our website www.moreliapythonradio.com Have a question or a comment then send us an email - info@moreliapythonradio.com EB Morelia www.ebmorelia.com Rogue Reptiles www.rogue-reptiles.com

Duration:: 2h 48m
Broadcast on:: 03 Feb 2016
Audio Format:: other

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Then visit shipreptile.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. Welcome to Moralia Python Radio with your host, Eric Hurk, and Oli McIntyre. Good evening, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Moralia Python Radio tonight. We're going to be talking carpet pythons. It's a subject, Owen, that we don't talk about too often. Not really. Was that a new intro? Did I miss something? Yeah, that was new. That was different. I was messing around with some stuff today. Yeah. Everyone thought I'm not paying attention to the intro. It starts and then it's like something different. What the hell's happening? You say, yeah, all right. I like it. Yeah. Hold on. That's not the normal stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we're going to be talking about, you know, we like to do this just me, you know, and once upon a type of thing to where we can hit on questions that come in or topics that people bring up or things that we see that, you know, are kind of the goings on in the Moralia world. So, you know, we got a couple of questions in, actually, and this month. So we thought we'd hit on those, along with some other different things. And just so everybody knows, if you do have a question or a comment for us and you want to send it our way, you can send it to our email at info@moraliapythonradio.com or you can just pee on us on Facebook. Either way, we can make that happen for sure. So. Nice. Nice. So, hey, I kind of like these shows. It's more of a laid-back kind of a relaxing kind of a show, we can do whatever the hell we want. So. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, I was listening back to the roundtable and, you know, it's always tough and all those different people and talking and whatnot. And then, like, sometimes this, like, things, I don't know if you're the same way, but I'm thinking about it in my head as it's going by and it's like, oh, I don't want to hide too much. So, these shows, let's get that, you know, at least for me. And we do have the chat going on over in the, I guess, I'll link it up, I mean, get everybody excited over there, you know. Yeah, normally you do the whole, you get everybody revved up by being like, it's show time and then all of a sudden everybody shows up on the little thing over there, yeah. Get ready for the pack. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's all gas. Holy shit. Yeah. Oh, wow. Good. Dave, some of that energy. Anyway. So, we'll talk a little bit about our seasons and how's that, that is going with us. We've got some, some news, some different things that I saw. I think Owen has a couple of things that he saw maybe and, you know, we'll just go through and, and chat it up. One thing, I guess we should say at the beginning, before we get into what's going on, we were nominated again on the reptile report, Best of 2015 for Best Reptile Radio Show. So I guess how it works is from, what's it, from February 1st until... I think it's the 22nd. 22nd. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go over. And you got to vote every day. You just can click on the link. I've posted it up on pick of the week, Mariah Python radio, Facebook page. I'll put it up on our website and it's also on, I think, the Mariah Python radio, Facebook group. But it's cool to be nominated. You know. Yeah. Cool. Before digging the show. You just have to go over to their, I think it's in their marketplace, is where it's at. But if you follow the link and then you log in and then you, you vote and you can only vote once a day. So it would be cool, you know, to win it. I mean, what's this, the third year in a row that they've directed? Third year in it. Yeah. Third year. I thought it was also cool, I'm going to throw a shout out to Terrell in April. Yeah. There's designer exotics was nominated for Python personality of the year. So you should go over and give them some love. He does a good job. She does a good job. He's the kind of the carpet guru. He's the short tail guru and, you know, together they're an awesome team, so definitely cool stuff. Very cool. So, yeah. Yeah. Go over there and show some support. There's a whole bunch of different categories. Yeah. I don't think that there's any other morality people. I think that the pictures are pretty cool that they have, you know, voting for the pictures that they have, photographs and such. So check it out. So how's your season going? What's going on with my season's going? I have two females grab it like they have to be. My caramel female today, she's huge, she's thick, she doesn't like me touching her. So it's like, all right, we're doing good so far there. And then I have nothing out of anybody else except maybe the Amazon tree fellas, which I don't know what I was trying not to breathe them. So, I don't know what happened there. But the bread line-- Yeah, that sucks. That one. Shut up. You know, there's people in this reptile world that actually are trying to breathe them and can't, and you're trying not to, and you are. How do you think I feel about IJ? All right? Shut up. Man. So, I pulled the bread line out of hibernation today, and the male is already all over one of the females. Like he's spurring her and all up and down. He was going nuts, so that's only a matter of time. So both of them are doing good. And then I actually am trying to make a last minute deal to get another tiger male. I did unfortunately lose my male tiger this summer, and I was an idiot, and I never held any of his babies back until last year. So I have a little baby boy, and I'm like, I don't-- because it never occurred to me. I'm like, I don't need you. You'll be fine. We're breathing years under his belt. Oops. So I don't have any tiger boys. And I'm like, you live within a square, like, in a couple of miles of, you know, interactions with Jason Bailin, Howard Redding, Mike Curtin. You're here, and you're telling me you didn't-- like, you had access to so many tigers over the years, it was ridiculous. So you didn't get any. So I'm working on that to kind of get the last ditch effort for a boy to try to get some tigers. This year, so we'll see. You should have asked me earlier, because I have-- I know. --three tiger males. Yeah, man. This is what happens when I keep quiet. So yeah, to have-- well, I honestly got it was, because I thought that another male, I had the axanic male, and I thought he could potentially do well. Well, he's been freaking out and running from everything female. So with him not doing anything, now I have this giant hole where, you know, you want to plug in a male that would be really good to-- like, you always want your backup hitter. So I've done that, but now the backup hitters in use and the axanic is still running away from other females, and then I got all these girls just sitting here. So I'm like, you know, I needed another male. I really did. I thought I was going to get by without it, but then what was presented to me that was just too good to pass up. You know, one of the things I used to learn from listening to the ball python people talk was about the need for extra males. You know, I think people underestimate that. You know, like, females seem to take more, you know, like, they're more valuable, which they are to a certain extent, but at the same time, if you have, you know, one male that's going to-- I mean, this doesn't really happen in carpet python world, but if you're going to have one male breed, what do they-- ball pythons are usually what, like, 10, 10 females? They have a male or a rat, yeah, yeah, they have one male or a rat. But if he doesn't go, you know, that's really your screw. That's bad. Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those things where I always-- I always bid here to the extra male thing to the point where I ended up being male heavy. So I think now I've gone so far left, it's ridiculous. I have probably three females to every male that I have, right, including males that I'm raising up. So now I'm sitting here and I'm like, "Crap, I really do need more boys." So it's one of those things where when I look at my holdbacks this year, I'm really going to have to take that to account of what gets held back if we're going to hold back some females or hold back some males, because to me, it was always hold back the girl and hold back a girl and sell everybody else. So, you know, it wasn't ever hold back a pair, because what do I need a pair? I already have all these other boys that are established, so-- and plus, I can always make a boy next year and maybe I'll grab that male. So it's one of those things where I kind of just should-- you should always keep a pair back, at least once a year, keep a pair back. You don't necessarily need to keep them forever, but always hold back 1.1 out of your season, at least. And then you can make decisions the next-- the following year, but yeah, we're drastically female heavy over here, so. Yeah, I don't know, I usually buy a couple males of the same type-- usually I buy a pair of like, if you're in a particular pairing or something that I like or whatever, I usually buy a pair, and then I just-- just by doing that, I've become, you know, I guess equal. You're more even, yeah, yeah, you know, so. If this male doesn't go, then you get to stop their male. Yeah, I-- I guess I should start doing that, of course, that means that certain things are going to need to leave, because you need more cake basically, so. That's always the dilemma, man. It's always the dilemma, and looking at you-- looking at you, Dominican, Redmouth, Boa, so. They're like, no, no. I'm like, get out! Well, I did-- I was telling Andrew was here dropping off his eggs, and he asked about Luna, and I'm like, well, funny story, Luna might be a boy, and he's like, really? I'm like, yeah, and unfortunately, I will-- I really don't like mixes, I'll tolerate a few, but if you're a-- went from being a really pretty mixed female to a somewhat pretty mixed male, you might be leaving. So, well, yeah, it's the worst decision he could have made, so it's-- so he was laughing about that one. So it's just-- it's one of those things where when you get down to it, I have a cake space. I need that cage. Get out of here, and you end up, like, kicking a male out, and-- and, you know, I think what you said earlier, how we always seem to put some more emphasis on the females, it's like if I-- if it came down to what needed to clear up a cake space, then I had a male, and I already had some younger ones that I was raising up, that male might be leaving. So, you know, how it rolls. So we'll be-- Yeah. And I still have-- I mean, out of the-- out of the two clutches of cozels that I have here that are pretty much confirmed, everybody else is still creating the bread, I just started. You have that thing. Bailin has my granite, and my jungles are off of getting bread, too, so it's like, I might not necessarily-- I might be getting more clutches than I think I will, so-- we'll say, still early in the day. So-- So what are you shooting for? Tons as many babies as possible. [LAUGHTER] He's going to flood the market with-- I had-- Hi, Tom. --chags will be buy one, get 12 free. So it's like I'm-- I had such a crappy year, last year, that I just want more babies, so that I have the option to be like, OK, we have enough to do as many shows as humanly possible. So, you know, if I end up losing my mind in, like, August, well, no, why, but I just want them all here, and then I'll make the decisions on what to do with them, so we're-- projections were to close-- be close to 100 babies, so-- 100 babies? That's if everything bred, which-- that never happens. Yeah, that's true. Never happens. So, you know, if it did, it would be one of those things. Stop, take cap-locks off, because I'll keep doing a set of messages and all caps. Yeah, I don't know how to do it on my little-- What thing? [LAUGHTER] You know, you're, like, usually pushed to the little cap-lock, and it comes off. Let me say, maybe that-- nope, that, then it works. Usually the arrow. We're not going to do-- we're not going to do troubleshooting for technical difficulties over there. I got it. [INAUDIBLE] All right, good job. I'm proud of you. [INAUDIBLE] It's, like, never underestimate the amount of nails you have. Why am I yelling? [LAUGHTER] Ah, but anyway, okay, so that's cool, so the season's progressing for you. Now it's, like, 60 degrees outside, so much-- I know. I screwed up. I'm back in warm-up. I brought the brettles inside. It wouldn't worth it, so. I brought everything back up. I love, you know, I think my ocelot jag, female, she's gravit, you know, she's pretty much on the heat, the m-pen-- speaking of m-pen, and, you know, I'm just looking at-- I had, like, this-- you know, this is how nerdy I am when it comes to carpet python. So when I see something that I like, I have this app it's called Evernote. When I see something that I like, or something that I dig, or a pairing, or a picture, or whatever it would be, you know, I can save it, right, from there, and it goes right into this Evernote. So I've compiled this collection of carpet python pictures, or topic, or, you know, locality stuff from Austria, it's crazy, so I'm flipping through and I'm looking through everything today, and, uh, that's it, geez, okay, I'll get more mail, so, okay. So you were already helping, so, go ahead. Shit, now, oh, m-pens, so I'm looking through pictures of, you know, past m-pens, and, like, some of the, uh, costals, so when we talk, let me, let me back up for a second, because we always have these people listening. When I say N10, what I'm referring to is, um, is, um, python in a pear tree, um, his name is Michael Pinnell, um, and, basically, he has bred these beautiful coastal carpet pythons, and the, you're striped, and they're lavender, and just beautiful, beautiful snakes. But if you look at some of the animals that were produced from what they were producing, man, they look like jags, like, I don't know, see if I can post a picture, I'll post it over in the chat room, see if I have them on here, um, but they really do, like, they could pass, the one could pass for a jag, uh, no doubt. And, uh, let's see, I know I sent it to you guys at some point, um, just beautiful, beautiful animals, but anyway, she is apparently, she's going into a pre-laced shed, um, so that should be, she looks like she's pretty solid, um, let's see, so that's those two, my, uh, citrus tiger, bred with the albino, she looks like that's a done deal, um, I took the albino and bred it to a, uh, the Thompson tiger as well, so if people like, what, errors, it's sort of somewhat out-crossed in the same vein, you know what I mean, um, and let's see what else. Uh, still nothing from the Xannic girl, bred with the albino jag, I'm just gonna have to end up buying double hats because I can't produce them, um, which sucks, um, but in a cool, uh, turnaround for that is next year, I could actually breed an albino jag to an Xannic zebra and make zebras and zebra jags double head for snow, oh my god, that's a positive. You're, you're Xannic, you're Xannic female, I mean, she's so pretty, I don't understand why she's got to be so damn difficult. So, yeah, I'm like, I might just, uh, it'll change your scenery, you might be in order, you may just want to have to, like, stick her in a different cage at the bottom of a rack or something like that, I don't know. You know, I keep going back to, uh, you know, it's funny, but I keep going back to, um, the, uh, the whole thing with the mature head, she, her head, her head just doesn't have that mature carpet pies on head and I'm just thinking maybe she's just not, maybe she's just not old enough, you know, I mean, even though she is, uh, 2,000, 11, she's huge, well, but whose standards is she huge, but your standard, she's huge. I don't believe that, her, yes, she's big, man. I swear to God, I'm not lying to you. She's really, well, and we, we quadruple checked the sex of this thing. Yes. Well, they lock, well, I get, you know, just because they lock, enemy shit doesn't mean anything. You're right, uh, but the, the fact that I'm going to send these now, okay, there we go. We may, we may want to double quadruple check. Now, it means Zach, I'm pretty sure we sexed her, um, she could just be that thing, dude. I mean, like, you know, she could just be that one animal that is going to throw a wrench in the works. Then you'll get frustrated, you'll sell her and the first person you sell her to will be like, Hey man, look at the clutch and you'll die and we'll just die. Yeah, I hate the world for a day, a week of months, like, for a day, you'll be like, I'm going to like your picture for the biggest shit when I push the button. So. Yeah. And so yeah, I got that going on actually more than, believe it or not, I'm pretty excited about that M Penn clutch because, you know, I've told this story before, but those snakes actually mean a lot to me because I handpicked them from Michael Penel and I was literally like, like a half an hour late in asking for them. And this guy bought them and I contacted them and told them if you ever sold them, you know, thinking like, who the hell is going to sell these snakes? Like, yeah, I would have thought I was going to get bad. So it's like, yeah, then he actually ended up selling them, yeah, they're one of those things where I've had two M Penns over my entire career, I'm sorry, three M Penns over my entire career of snake breeding. One was so early on, I had no idea what I was doing. And then I had the one girl and she was the one, remember when she had the infection that she ruptured, like, through her own body of like left yield after she had a clutch, I was horrible. Like, so I've been waiting for you to breed these things because I've been dying to get M Penn Coastal's back in my collection. So I mean, like, I will be there at your house the day they're pipping because I want to know which ones I might be getting. So you're not allowed to sell any of the ones that I say that you have to hold on until I say so. Well, you know, you know, buddy has been waiting for that too. No, no, no, no, he can have, he can have the pick after me. And then when I say the pick after me, I get the gap like several picks and then maybe re-picks and then maybe repeated picks before he can come and pick his own. So yeah, he can have them when I'm done, you know, Jesus Christ. Anyway, those are just, I mean, and I know they're just pure coastal, and I know a bunch of people kind of don't care, but they are really cool, they're so good looking. I mean, I had the one coastal, I wish to God I still had her. Both my girls were bright yellow and had great patterning color and it was, you see, those colors on a coastal was freaking insane. So I would love to have those back. Yeah, not to be mixed with other things. Like I don't want to mix them with a tiger or a jag, I want to bring with each other. Yeah. No. This is my other female, I'm posting it up now. Yeah. You're pretty. So you're just going to be doing all the, I mean, I'm just going to see what your ocelot does because she's actually a pretty ocelot. Yeah, I'm curious myself. I don't know, I don't think that that pairing has been done, so I don't know how that's going to turn around. I mean, I don't know if, you know, I don't know, it's very, that should be interesting for sure. I'm pretty happy with that. I was kind of psyched about, so I had this one IJ that was, what do you call it? She was breeding, but she got the R.I. and I was breeding her. That was poison ivy with the tigers, but I think that that's a done deal. But she's doing much better, which is good. For some reason, this is a pretty funny story. So I asked my wife, I asked my wife to kind of help me give the needle, and yeah, she's pretty chill, believe it or not, the snake is pretty chill. But you know, I haven't given the, like the left needle I gave was when I had berms. I haven't given anything with that, and they're so big and brown, there's so much space. You know, it's like, I don't know, I don't think you're real. But she's pretty chill, but when I did it with my wife, oh man, I'm like, what do you want to do? Do you want to hold the snake, or do you want to give the needle? I guess I can give the needle. Okay, here we go. I'm holding the snake, kind of just like, she's like, oh my God, that, you know. I'm like, oh, this isn't going to work, I'm like, just, uh, no, no, no, no, well, I mean, was your wife like, at least a little confident with the needle, like, or like, I would imagine this, it wasn't going to like, end up in your arm or something, was it? Oh, believe it or not, she stuck my finger. Luckily, I didn't think it had any fatrol in my finger, but yeah, she's stuck in my fatrol, I mean, you know, well, it's my arm numb, I mean, like, at least it was just fatrol. So, wow. Oh, well. Yeah. At least, I mean, you know, I stopped her in her tracks, but she tried, I got to give her an A for effort. Yeah, I would, yeah, that is a big A for effort for trying, I mean, your wife doesn't really have that much interaction with the snakes. No. I mean, I bet you she goes and checks them out when they're teeny and hatching and things like that. Oh, yeah. Then everybody does that. And which it is cool. It is always cool. Are you kidding me? It's awesome. So, so yeah, I got a kind of a mild season this year, you know, every, I mean, for me, each breeding season, I don't know if you is like, is a learning experience for me. Oh. Any very detailed notes and it really hones in each year. I think I get more in tune with what's going on. I think this year was kind of a flop because of the weather. I think it really, really took a toll. But who knows? You know, I mean, like you said, maybe it'll go longer. It leads me to wonder, though, like with that exam, a girl, you know, something like maybe I'm just not looking at the right time of year with her, you know, it could be one of those, you know, if she feels thick, I mean, last year during my whole moving and crap, it was around, I want to say February, Marchish, when I thought my high con jag was grab it. And it turns out she wasn't. So, but she was nice and big and swollen to the point where I thought she could be. And it's almost like was that an odd swell? And I was stupid enough to call it, you know, grab it because that one the males should have gone in with her. So, yeah, it's one of those things you're almost going to find the right, the sweet spot, find out when it works for them. I mean, for all you know, at some point in March, that examic girl can get nice, big and swollen, and that's what the boy should be in there. So. Yeah, that's why I kind of just leave the mail in and just kind of go about everything. I would, too. I do believe reintroduction does help. Like I actually, I separated the olives, and I realized I had a very big problem with my hands. And that is, is that I separated the olives, but I don't know which one is which. So. Oh my God. Jesus. Dude. This is same size. It's a self like a, well, I don't know who the hell, what do they do? Like Sharpie on his head, Sharpie on the head, the one with the dot is the male. Yeah. I'll take a Sharpie and I'll draw a male symbol on his head. This way I know who he is. So, I'll figure it out because you put him, oh, I got it. Put them together. And now you don't know how. Okay. So I separated them, they're going to go back together after I'm going to see if they eat because they're both like starving, apparently, according to them. So I'm going to feed them and then I'm probably going to put them back together and see if I can get maybe the breeding to go again, or at all. And then when the season finally wraps up, that's when I'll sit down with my probes and figure out which one who's who. So, but it's like I'm doing it and I'm like, you know, you never had this problem with carpet fights on everybody, but it's, you know, I know who the male is, he's that one. So, yeah, typically my males are way smaller. So it's really easy to, so, I mean, wow, that's kind of, I never thought about that problem. And now that I'm actually thinking about it. And I have, I have just a pair of, I had albino olives and they're just small, and I could not tell. Well, thank you, imagine, imagine if you were trying to cycle through a albino male and a normal, a normal male with your own female. How do you know who to stop? Ooh, that's called hashtag Liassus problems. That's a big problem. I mean, probably you get the same problem with water pythons. I mean, but then you can try to keep them a little bit, like, female will be a little bit bigger. But in this case, my albino pythons are both the same size, so it's like crap. So we'll have to see, and the other thing is that none of them are, it's, we're in the middle of the season, so no one's acting like they would normally act because normally my male albino python is, you know, donko for food, and the females really chill. Right now everybody wants food, so it's not, I can't really gauge their personalities either. So it'll take some time to figure out, you know, who belongs to who, so. Yeah, I, this will, I'll throw this out there. This is a little tip, something that I learned, and this is what I'll be doing this week actually. So basically I don't feed from, I have not fed, I don't feed any of my snakes from now, from November until now. Yeah, we're going to feed everybody this week. Yes, so now that it's warm back up, now everybody starts getting food. But what I have noticed with females is that, so not all hope is lost, that sometimes when you give them a couple meals, for some reason, it kicks them into opulations. So you're exactly correct, because my high con tiger will, like she'll, she won't eat and then she'll start eating, and then she will eat up until the week before she drops eggs as for the god. She ate a medium rat, and then like that Monday, she had a clutch of like 16 eggs. So I think what I'm going to, I think what I'm going to do with my females, we're like going into the breeding season, like maybe the two months before or whatever, I'm going to start feeding them rabbits, rabbits, not, not big rabbits, you know, not like sperm rabbits, you know, but I'm just thinking like, well, you know, and I, I could be crazy, but I'm thinking of like all those crazy pictures that I see of wild carpet pliers, I have this huge field, you know, I don't, you know, what, is it better to feed them a couple of rats or is it better to feed them, you know, like a nice sized rat, that, you know, something like that. The funniest thing is that I went to the White Plains Expo this Sunday, and hung around with Mike Curtin for a while, but I did get to talking with a friend of mine who works at a, almost like a wildlife rescue kind of thing in New York. And he was wondering because he has a few carbapatons for me and a few other things that they want to start raising rabbits, because they have like this little farm set up, and he goes, will the carbapatons eat rabbits? And I'm like, yeah, they should, but the problem is is that of what is a good sized prey item for a carbapaton, depending on your breed of rabbit, you know, is that going to be like a brand new baby born rabbit, in which case, is that going to have everything that a carbapaton, an adult carbapaton is used to getting from an adult rat? Correct. Yeah, I thought about that, you know. Yeah, we talk in supplements, and we talk in like, I don't know what the bone structure is, is a bit of a baby rabbit is. I don't think they go through a whole like pinky stage, like almost like the mouse do. I know they have like a peach fuzz eyes closed stage, but I don't think it's like it has no hair on its body kind of deal. And I do know that they have anything a little bit better bones, but I do, I do not know. I'm thinking like whatever is the equivalent to like a small rat, but in a rabbit size. You know what I mean? So like not an adult rabbit, but not, you know, like hopper rabbit, not like that, not like rat bral or something like that. You know, I don't know what the stages are, I'd have to research it a bit, but that's kind of kind of my thinking. Yeah, I mean, it would be something to do and it would be a bigger meal. I mean, there are just so many breeds of rabbit out there. I mean, you have, you can have rabbits too, the babies are the size of your dog. So I mean like, yeah, I'm not your dog, not my dog, but I mean, like, you know, you're not sure. Let's make it that rabbit. I remember feeding berms, you know, when I had all my berms, they basically that's what they ate was rabbits. And I used to get used like, yeah, I don't know like what's, what poundage they were, but they were like this medium sized rat. And I definitely think a female like carpet could handle, handle that. Definitely could. I just think that, you know, I was listening back to conversations that we had with Ben on the show. And when he was talking about, you know, getting your female, you don't want them to be overweight, you want them to be slightly overweight going into the breeding season, you know, and they are going to drop some weight. Yeah. Yeah. You know, especially with like, I like to do maternal incubation and, you know, things like that. The female really has to be in good shape, you know, in order to do that. Yeah. So I mean, one of those things where you have, it's one of the things where you don't realize it's just how much the toll of breeding season has taken on your females until the eggs are here. Because then you're like, Oh my God, I've killed you. It's like, they're like, yeah, they look like that. It was horrible. Like it's like, they look like a tube of toothpaste that has been utterly spent. So it's like, it's one of those things where if you can do anything to kind of make it a little bit softer of a landing for them, because I don't know about your girls, but Venus, my, my carnival, she got it down to an art, like she's always the first female gravid because the second the male is in there, they're, they're going at it. And she drops the eggs and she like leaves them by the door. She doesn't coil them. She just puts them here and goes away. So, and the second I clean her up and clean all the eggs done, she's looking for food. So it's like, I don't know about how your females are and how fast they bounce back to food, but almost all of mine, the day, all over the day after laying eggs are just eating whatever is in front of them. So it would be nice if maybe that wasn't extremely necessary. Yeah, I've never had a problem with females bouncing back. I mean, I know that I guess I hear that a lot with ball pythons, but I'm not, I've never had that problem with carpets, but nor have I really heard of that problem. I mean, basically once the females laid the eggs, what I do is is that I take the eggs out, and when I take her off the eggs, kind of set her aside, I take the eggs out, I weigh the eggs, and then I set them up, put them in the incubator, done deal. Then I go back to her, I basically clean her off, and then I clean her enclosure, you know, because it's funny. I had, you remember that one caramel girl that she was egg bound, and you came over and took the egg out, okay, so she like wrapped around newspaper for days, you know, I couldn't get like, because I didn't want to disturb her too much, because of what we did. And I just wanted to make sure that, you know, I didn't stress her out with anything, so I just kind of let her chill for a couple days, but those couple days she was wrapped around newspaper like, I kept having to look like, oh my God, did she put another egg, and it's like, there's no egg, it's just paper. It's the funny thing is that they will respond to that after a ridiculous amount of time. I had a clutch hatch, and as the clutch was hatching, I took the eggs, and I put the eggs, I wouldn't even think it was my old sneaker, I put the eggs on top of the cage that their mother was in. So the babies were hatching, and I was setting them up on the rack, and I spin around, and Aurora has balled up all her paper, and I'm like, you haven't, she's not seeing these eggs for months, like I took them away from her months ago, and now, like, the smallest hint of their smell is back near her, and she's balling up paper trying to incubate them. And it's like, he's like, I admire the maternal instinct here, sweetheart, but, so I had to go full thing, I just set up all the babies, I had to pull her out, clean her cage, clean her all, and she wasn't running back to it, but I was kind of astonished that she went back to the, trying to incubate them, I thought it was cool. So, but yeah, there's something you've got to watch for, it's like, something you have to be a little wary of, so. Yeah, I hear it's another cool observation that I've had from the season so far, so, you know how we've talked, for some reason, my females never bask belly up, you've seen it in your girls a lot, and so, and this is just, again, this could mean totally nothing, it's just something that I observe. I use, for the most part, I use, no, actually, yeah, well, for the most part, I use under the tank heat, right? Yeah, so, the heat is coming from underneath the tank, you use radiant heat panels where the heat is coming from above. So this year, the one rack setup that I have, the, it's actually back heat, right? So what I did before is that I just add a piece of heat tape to the, you know, to underneath the tub where the female would lay, right by that back heat, so that, you know, once I realized that she, you know, like I have a good feeling that she's grab it, I put that there, et cetera, et cetera. I also did it this year because I had that, you know, poison ivy was have, has the RI, you know, when you have an all that RI, the first recommendation is to raise the heat. Well, it was difficult because I was still in cooldown and, you know, I didn't want to, she was actually in the rack with all the females that were breeding, so I didn't want to, which was still cooling down at night. So I didn't want her to go through that cooldown, I just wanted her to have a hot spot 24/7. So I pulled her out of that, I put her in this other one, and then I added the, the heat pad for underneath. Well, the off a lot girl is right down underneath of her. And what I noticed is that, that, that first night, she kind of coiled and she was coiled belly up. Now, you know, again, this is me being a carpet python nerd, you know, the first time you see that, I was just like, wow, that's so cool, you know, and I, I just thought of that for the longest time. So basically the heat now that she was getting is not coming from underneath, it's coming from on top. And I wouldn't want it to be too hot because I knew that, you know, poison ivy had that heat pad right there, and it's coming through that, that, you know, through the rack, and basically it's a hot spot that's above her now. It does. And I just thought it was interesting that, you know, yeah, I know that there was some talk on like, does the snake, I mean, because if it snakes in the wild, my thinking is, is that they would be getting the heat from above, you know, it would depend because what if he was crawling on a really nice, warm rock? Well, that's the other thing that I thought of is like, if they're out, you know, like especially at night, you'll see the snakes that go forward, like the road. So I just thought that that was kind of interesting observation. I agree. And I think it's depending on what mom needs to do to, for the temperature of the eggs. So she's got to warm them up. She might best belly up, or she might put her belly towards the warmest thing around her. She's got to cool them down, like how many of your girls are hugging water bowls? I never see that. I mean, this has been wrapped around hers like 24/7. Yeah. They're in the laybox, which I gave her a laybox this year, which means you'll lay like somewhere else other than the box. It's, she's either in the box, basking underneath the e-panel, or she's wrapped around the water bowl. I think at this point now, she's so, we're so done that she's just regulating the eggs. So. Right. She hadn't even had a free lay yet. So we'll see. But it's just, it's those cool observations that you see. I mean, the Amazon Trebo is not perching really where she normally would. She's kind of keeping more to the branch that's larger, because I can see her belly kind of getting bigger. So that's something that's cool too, that you can always observe in those kind of guys. And it's just some of these things is what you kind of observe. So. Yeah. It's, as Eugene Bassett said, become a student of the serpent and pay attention. You know, it really tries to hone in your skills. Now, see, what's exciting for me is not so much like these past two years have sort of been like this, for me. I really haven't had like most of the clutches that I've done or most of the pairings that I've done have been stuffed for me, holding back and, you know, specific, you know, it's not necessarily something flashy, but, you know, it's het this or het that, you know, all these kinds of things trying to prove out blue and ivy. And, you know, with holding all those babies back, I definitely have to make sure that I don't overwhelm myself with, you know, too many clutches. But next year is pretty much the, it's the year that I've been waiting for since I've been a carpet python breeder, because basically next year I will have rattles to size, I will have inlands to size, I will have Darwin's to size, I will have, you know, a whole slew of IJs to size, like breeding projects that I've been waiting to do forever. All these crazy het this and het that project, you know, all that stuff will be ready to go and, you know, I'm feeling good because I don't know about you, but as of recently, I think that the carpet python community and world is, you know, new people are coming in, I'm seeing more and more people interested, you know, I'm looking at the show stats and, you know, it seems like everybody wants to hear about carpet pythons, you know, it's like, yeah, I don't know, I'm feeling good about it, but, you know, have you ever had that like, have you had that experience yet where you've, you sort of bought your babies and you grew them up to where like, that year, I've had that year to where you're like, yes, this is what I've been waiting for, I'm so excited that year and then I can, dude, I can, I have that year and then I'm going to tell you what year you get to look forward to after that. I had that year because I bought my first carpet when I was in college and I usually bought the product, I always bought like two-year-olds, three-year-olds, I never bought baby babies, until I got Trinity and I got Talon and I got them both as hatchlings, Trinity should have never been sold to me, she was way too young. And then I got Talon from Jason Balen, so they were both babies and I raised them up and they're an '07 and an '08, so I was out of college, I was raising them up, I went all the way up and then they finally, I've paired them together and through that pairing produced echo. So you, I got so excited because you had this pair that I raised up from babies to adulthood and now they've just made this fantastic tiger jack for me, he's awesome looking. And now, and now echo is breeding and has produced, this is his fourth clutch, I think that he's got cooking right now and I have one of his daughters, is now a hold back, because she's this really nicely cream-colored and red striped coastal and I'm like, you gotta stay because I'm gonna mix you with the tiger project, so it's gonna be awesome. So now it's like, all of a sudden I'm back where I was because I've raised echo up to adulthood and he's breeding and now I have Emma and I'm raising her up and it's like holy crap, you have to almost sit here and think about it because it's like, I raised those two up and now their son was raised up and now I'm raising up their granddaughter to size and it's gonna be one day, three or four years down the road, when Emma's having her first clutch, I'm gonna be like, holy shit, so it's really cool to think about that kind of stuff and you have those seasons where all of a sudden all the little babies that you've been raising up are now ready to roll. I have my super caramel is going this year, my caramel tiger is going this year and it's almost like if you almost got a pausing kind of, realize that, otherwise you just blow right through it and it is definitely very cool, so yeah, yeah, you know, a few years down the road when you're like raising up poor babies and ivy's grandkids to continue the line is when you'll be like, holy shit, so, well next year in particular with poison ivy, which I'm kind of glad that she didn't go this year because it gives me a whole year to kind of like, you know, really make sure that she's in good shape because I'm gonna breed a male back to her, one of her sons, you know, and you know, we really know then whether it's something or nothing or what the case is, you know, so yeah, that's fun man, but you know, the thing about breeding snakes, you know, especially Moralia, I guess this applies to all reptiles, but it's just patience man, you know, I can't stress enough, you know, I geek out, I write down what my pairings are gonna be, I try to figure out like what kind of, you know, animals and what's my end result, what am I hoping for, what's the look that I'm looking for in an animal and, you know, when you go and you find all those things and then you put all that time into it, you raised it up three years, you know, three and a half years and then finally you get to that spot, it's just really cool, you know, it's an awesome feeling and then when you see those snakes pip out of those eggs and, you know, it's such an awesome, such an awesome thing, so, you know, just stick with it man, you know, if there's a problem, yeah, that's why you really should do what you love, don't worry so much about, I don't think people should worry so much about like I said, you know, what's cool or what's hip at the time because, you know, you're gonna go and buy a snake, like, I'm just gonna use rough scales for example, right, you know, so everybody's like all about rough scales because, you know, nobody has them and they're this rare species and, you know, very few people breeding them, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and by the time they're raised up and you're ready to breed them, probably more than likely nobody's gonna give a shit, so unless you're like really a diehard rough scale, like I know you are own fans, you know, you're not gonna appreciate the project, you know what I'm saying, like, my rough scales could never breed and I don't care. I don't care, I don't care, I just, I won, and I already told you I'm getting another pair this year because I don't, I don't want to 1.18 enough, I want at least 2.2 because they're just so variable, they're different with the tan and the brown, it's, oh, god, in the eyes, so yeah, I want 4, it's like, I'm sitting here, I'm like, do I really want chondros, it's like, it's getting to that point where I may need your opinion to get out, so, uh oh, it's, I, I, not yet, so, you know, it's, it's one of those things where you gotta appreciate it, I mean, what, give me three, four years, um, I'm raising up that trio of gold white lips right now, and I mean, the largest female just got onto rat pups, the male is probably gonna follow her in a week or two, and then I had a really, really tiny baby female that's on hopper twice, and it's like, eventually, it's gonna be like the day the white lips go together, it's gonna be like, holy shit, we're here, so that's gonna be a, just, that's gonna be a killer feeling, I'll be a nervous wreck, but you know, it's gonna be killer afterwards when no one dies, hopefully, so, you know, it's one of those things, I mean, I mean, I raised the olives up, teeny babies, to the point where we're getting like, adult cages for them this summer, so it's, it's something that it's, I believe that if you are too grounded in the production of the animals or the economical impact of the animals, you'll lose the, uh, the joy of raising it up, and that's the part I love, I can get someone to come over and breed my animals for me, so that'd be great, 'cause I don't know what the hell I'm doing, but, you know, I just want to do the raising up part, I just want to watch them grow, so, you know, it's, um, it's one of those things where, uh, that, that in part is the best thing, also, watching, uh, watching the baby's hatchet, you put the parents together, it's like seeing what comes out of those eggs, uh, and seeing what you can do with it, it's, I love it, it's, uh, that's why I'll keep doing this, uh, for the rest of my life, so. Yeah, it's, uh, you know, I'll give you an example, what, you know, uh, of what not to do, okay. So when I first started this whole EB-maralia thing, my goal was to sort of work with, um, all the species in the maralia complex, and, uh, or the maralia genus, and, um, basically, you know, breed 'em and have the best examples, and, you know, all this stuff. Uh, the best thing that ever happened to me was when scrubs, scrubs, and, uh, bolognes, and um, oh, and, uh, yeah, but it made me think, right, that, that, that moment, and that I thought that I had in my head made me think it's like, wow, man, I'm really doing these animals with the service, because I'm not really into them, like, I'm into carpets and, you know, it's like, I don't, uh, I'm not, I don't have the same passion and the same drive, and, you know, although I do keep, I do have a scrub, uh, actually I have two, I keep it as it's just basically a pet, you know, um, 'cause they're beautiful animals, but I don't know, uh, I'm, I'm necessarily in the game to want to breed them, um, there's plenty of people out there that want to do that. As far as chondros go, you know, so here's the other part of it, uh, you know, chondros are still in the Morelia genus, and, you know, thinking about chondros, um, you know, I know there's all these designer animals, and they look amazing, and they're really cool, and da, da, da, da, da, for me, personally, what gets me jazzed about chondros, I don't think that there's anything cooler than seeing a green snake with a white stripe down its back, you know, and those, for me, it's Cape York animals are the creme de la creme, um, but you know, every time I ask a chondro person about Cape York's, they always tell me, well, you can get marooks, and you can't really tell the difference, and you know, how would you know anyway, which is true, I guess to a certain extent, um, but, uh, you know, so I decided, you know what, that's what my collection is going to be, I'm going to work with the ruse, and marooks, or marockeys, whatever you want to say, um, and that's what I focus my collection on, nothing too crazy, nothing too big, you know, when it's, when it's big or go home, it's really comes down to carpet by the hounds, everything else is kind of like I have like these little offshoot projects, and I'll tell you what, when I produce that chondro, that's green, with that white stripe, people are going to lose their friggin mind over it, you know. So the problem is that when you produce the chondro with this green with the white stripe, you don't know it's green with the white stripes, so it becomes green with the white stripes, because they're all born yellow and red, see that's what, that's like, I can't, I can't get behind too many chondro projects, because I would be like, hooray, time to pick my whole face, god damn it, it's like I have to wait for a year, so it's like, you know, it's one of those things, but, um, it's, we have, I have the tannabars here, I hate them, um, there's such, there's such, there's such little bastards, I, I hate them, but, and they're paired up, and watch them breathe and make it clutch, and I'll be like, great, now I got more you little aliens, um, and then of course the Jayas, and the womanas, and the, uh, Marukis are off in the other place, so it's just like, there could be more scrubs, I don't want there to be more scrubs, I'm perfectly happy with my Moralia, the problem is, is that I somehow drift it into Liasis, and absolutely love being in the Liasis portion, so, you know, maclots are awesome, if I can get some more savo that would be cool, but then I just want the weirder kind of off the cuff, Liasis stuff too, like, I, I'll be the first on the list to be done, to get done, where everybody else is just gonna be like, why? It's a olive python and a maclots python that's combined, I'm like, exactly, so, yeah, no, I, I can, I can totally understand that, because you know how I get super, super crazy about, um, Imbracada, you know, like, totally one day I can work with Imbracada, Imbracada, and, you know, oh my god, I'll be the happiest guy in the world, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and I'll probably be, there'll probably be a few people that care about them, but for the most part, people are gonna be like, uh, yeah, it's like carpet, it's like carpet python, it looks just like this coastal carpet python, you know what I mean? This thing is, it's gonna be one of those, it's gonna be like, oh yeah, your mind, yeah, the Imbracada is gonna give here, and then it's gonna be like, everybody who might want to eat or be associated with it is gonna get 1.1, it's like how eventually, uh, like, it's like how eventually one of these times that I fucked a Nick, he's gonna convince me that I need 1.1 Brisbane, and Brisbane, sorry, hold the phone for one second, how can you be the coastal guy, you, you've officially lost your coastal carpet python patch, whatever, you are no longer a coastal guy, you are out of the coastal family, I don't know. I can't read anything else anyway, um, I don't have the Brisbane, but I've been like tempted by them every time I talk to Nick, I'm tempted by them, and it's so cool. I know, but it's one of those like, it's one of those, I'm always tempted by them after I've agreed to spend a ridiculous amount of money with him. So it's like, he's like, okay, well I'll send you these and then, you know, we'll do all this, how about a pair of Brisbane that I'm like, it hurts too much already, please stop. It's one of those times where I actually have to talk to him where I don't have an agenda or don't want anything else but the Brisbane, so it'll come, but you know, they are so cool, they are so cool. Hey, maybe this year because you know, you know I'm gonna be up next, like, ass because of Romulus, I mean, you know, my boys, my boys, yes, so you know I'm already like watching Nick to be like, wait no those eggs coming, because the second I see that those that he's got those, I'm gonna be like, oh, it's gonna be terrible. So maybe I'll be like, hey, I wanna pair of skills and maybe a pair of Brisbane, so it's like, you know, it's gonna be one of those things, especially if it's one of those things where you get them, you have 1.1 of them and that's it, because if I get a pair of Brisbane's, what am I gonna breathe to? I will not be that asshole that will take a Brisbane and throw it through a chat. I refuse to be that person, whoever he is. That's gonna happen and now it will be not but yeah, I mean, come on, but yeah but it's like, so you start dipping into locality coastal, so I would want 1.1 Brisbane and that's all I would do with them is just have that and I would not need any other Brisbane's in just 1.1. So you'll see yourself wanting to get like Port Douglas Coastal's, Rockhampton Coastal. They never appealed to me, maybe the Port Douglas but the Rockhampton's never really appealed to me. I mean, I know I believe it's too much. It got crazy head patterns, I know, but I've only seen like babies and when I look at the babies, I'm like, I've produced things that can't look like that. So it's like, you know, I never got behind them. I never could, so yeah, yours just need to get older so I can look at them. So, you know, it's one of those things where maybe but I actually never really saw myself getting into it, you know, maybe later on I'll grab some localities, I don't wanna be one of those locality people, just knowing, doing the hook guys. I'm a little bit of everything, you know, I like it all, everything, everything. So, you know, I just wish you're, you guys wish you're carved by the ones that get to the size of mine. I'd love to see you, you were gonna put all these things but like, you know, I'm building ASAP. Yeah, that's getting that way and, you know, speaking of which, I don't know if you saw, I wanna say it was, I saw somebody, let me see if I can find it real quick, it really made me, I really want like a really top notch reptile room, you know. Did you say it was blond? Yes. Yeah. He stole one of my ideas, he's got a sliding glass door to go into a snake room and I almost did that for the new room because I was thinking about it but it was too weird of an opening but it was like, I'm like, that's a damn good idea, I love that idea of having a sliding glass door to get your room because that thing would be weather type and nothing's escaping from your room with that one, so. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely would be cool. I'm trying to see though, somebody posted up a pic of their caging and I was really, maybe, I'm going through a pic of the week, see if I can find it again. Yeah. It was Martin Rosemond, he, I forget the kind of caging that he has but he posted up on a pic of the week, this picture with his new caging, dude, it was impressive, that's nice. That's really like, you want to talk about high end, it's like the caging was on wheels, it's, what's the rack that you have, that rack that's on, pro tech caging? Yes. Yes. And nature's the natural spirit or whatever, that help. Yeah. Nice. Well, we saw him at Tinley and we were drooling over that one that looked like it was four conjurocaging. Oh, that's, that's, that's, that was, well, I don't know if that's, I don't think that's them, but it's the same kind of setup where it's like, the pro, like maybe it'll kind of like that. It was, they were awesome looking and it looked so professional. It's like, it would just, that would be so cool. So that's my dream. So you should do that. I'm working on that, man. I'm working on it. Okay. Like, uh, getting the house and the thing, when I get that basing, that's what's going to look like. It's going to be pretty, pretty weak. That's so much cooler than, uh, you know, that's so much cooler than, um, uh, it's got, uh, somebody just posted a picture of one of my animals on the beginning of the week. Um, it's one of those things where, uh, it, it, it's the basic talk we always talked about racks versus cages versus, yeah, I don't see my animals versus I do. Imagine having those top notch cages. I mean, you, you can see the animals and that's cool to me. So. Well, you know, here's the thinking with that though, you know, that is true to a certain extent. I do agree with that to a, to a certain extent. Um, I think that sometimes we make caging, uh, you know, and the caging is more for the, um, for the, uh, keeper, more than the cat because you want to stare at it, obviously, you know? Yeah. Um, but here's the thing, Condra, our carpets, they're freaking bulletproof, dude. They're not going to be stressed out if you're staring at it. No, I don't care. It's not going to want you to stare at it, you know, like, come on, bring it on. This is what I'm going to do. I'm on a perch, you know, it's like other snakes. If you have like, uh, you know, scrubs and stuff like that, they're going to be like, uh, you know, super, you know, hitting the glass all the time and all that kind of stuff. You know, so. Yeah. Can you imagine, can you imagine having those cases in like a high, high traffic area with like scrubs? Oh my God. Like, you know, what the hell was that? Yeah, and then you worry about the animals wealthy. You know, I mean, you're smashing your head into a freaking glass. Three days, their lips are bleeding, they're, yeah, got rubbed around their face. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason I cover my water pythons, a cage. It's not because, you know, it's not for my benefits for hers because she would just keep going until her head busted, so, which unfortunately she's, she's getting too big for that tub. So I have to move her to a bigger one, which I don't know how the hell I'm going to block that off. So yeah, that's kind of, uh, that's kind of where I'm at with the whole set up and all whatnot, you know, and, uh, I don't know, it's kind of had some thoughts. You know, scrub pythons, we should throw this out there that you haven't seen this, um, Ryan Norris, um, who basically begged, borrowed, would do anything for that one scrub python that you have. Oh, the patternless will mean, uh, every time he sees you, yes, you're going to sell that thing. You almost got her, you almost got her again this summer. Yeah. There was, there was debating on, and unfortunately he is the first and only person I will call when she leaves. But it's like every time I sit there and it's like, all right, who's leaving and she's on the table. She always ends up not being on the other side of that line of staying and leaving. So, uh, I, I, and I wish they got extra breed. So it's like, um, like give himself. Right. Yeah. So he's worked up a, uh, I knew this was going to be a matter of time, but if anybody was going to do it, um, I think that, uh, you know, he's, he's the guy for the job because, uh, he did a fabulous job when it comes to blood pythons and short tail pythons. Um, you know, him and Cara have like one of the best, short tail python collections going, you know, and, uh, yeah, he's just, he's an awesome dude. Um, I know at some point he'll be coming on to talk about, uh, his scrub pythons and his collection and whatnot, but, um, he, he basically works with barnecks. He doesn't really work with, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, any like tannin bars, malukins, helmet errors, anything like that. Uh, but, uh, he's got a website basically scrub pythons.com. Pretty simple. Uh, you should check it out. See what, uh, what he has there. I'm sure, you know, it's a work in progress, um, just sort of like Mariah your python radio is a work in progress. Um, it's a good start though. Uh, he has a Facebook page too. Uh, he has some beautiful scrubs on there and they really are beautiful animals. So I'm glad that, I'm glad that there's somebody that's as excited about scrub pythons as I am about carpet pythons. And that makes me happy that somebody is, is, is putting the time into him. Um, you know, the guy that I used to consider the guru would be David Means and he sort of, uh, stepped away for a little bit because, uh, he had some personal issues and what not. And, you know, uh, that dude knew his, he was, he still does, he knows his shit. Oh yeah. He's like, when it comes to scrub pythons, that's the freaking guy, man. Um, yeah. And he's kind of, he's, he's in it, but he's not, I don't know if he's breathing. I think he's got a lot of animals that are on loan to other people. So I think in it, but not, and, but you know, when, when he kind of took the, the side step, I mean, we lost a guy who was producing several clutches of bar necks, uh, a year. And that was, you know, yeah, a huge hole that is still, in my opinion, a pretty big not filled. Yeah. I know. But it kind of became, uh, it kind of became a law there. It's really not filled in, uh, some bar necks kind of trickle in here a little bit, but there are still aren't that many wild caught bar necks you've brought in. You only see them kind of don't see scrubs that often anymore. Uh, so hopefully, yeah, it was, yeah, it was, um, uh, it seems like if you do see anything, it's mostly Southerners, you know, that are coming in. You don't really see a whole lot of, uh, or tandem, or tandem bars. I mean, yeah, that's the other thing, tandem bars. I don't know, but, uh, that makes me, uh, makes me happy. I'm glad he's, he's doing it. He's, he's got an awesome collection of scrubs, uh, I'm sure he'll be, uh, successful just like he was with, uh, you know, bloods and short tails. So check it out. We did, I guess we'll hit on this next. We did get a question, um, and this question came from Mike Arnold, and I'll read it, and then we'll talk about it. Um, so basically it says, hey guys, love the show. Really appreciate the knowledge shared, um, on, uh, the not so great things that comes along with keeping carpet pythons, um, he's really looking forward to the mite show. And I think it was a good show, um, it was, you know, um, um, I know, uh, I know that um, you know, GTP Heeper Radio had Brad on, and I thought that I, I thought Brad was an awesome dude, and he was an awesome guest, but the thing that, um, I thought was cool was the fact that, you know, we did something different than we didn't really talk about Kondra's that much. So. No. So, you know, we wanted to do something different than what those guys did. But anyway, back to the question, uh, along with, uh, the great, uh, things, uh, that come along with keeping Moralea, uh, if you could brush upon the subject of genetic flaws, uh, be fascinating, by that I mean, we know that Jag, the Jag is lethal, but you never hear about, you know, Rick Kinks, is it common, is it sporadic, a personal favorite of mine is the granite, uh, but for lack of better word, the word on the street is that there is other, uh, are breeding issues due to excessive line breeding. You never see granite to granite. It's always head to visual, and I'm sure there must be other genetic flaws in other genetic pairings also. Again, show is awesome. Mike Arnold. All right, so let's take the Zebra first. So yeah. Yeah. Zebra, Zebra, Zebra, Zebra have tail kinks, but not all of them have it. Um, no, some, some have it also varies on where it's kinked and how bad from almost animal to animal. Some of them have a slight little bend to the tip of the tail, which you could easily be like knocked or docked off. Other ones, the tail curls so much, almost like a pig curlicue that it's almost like a flat disc at the end of their tail. And that you can't do anything about. And I've seen it where the kink is towards the vent, and I've seen it where it's near the tip. Um, and I've seen super zebra is born with no kinks at all. So Jason Bailin just kind of strung out this passage. Yeah. Perfect tail. Perfect tail. You know, it seems sporadic and it's almost like, will this get better over time? Um, will we kind of read more? Like, I would be interested to see if super zebra is produced by Bailin super zebra kind of have, I don't know, a better percentage of having, a better chance of having, uh, straighter tails. But I kind of almost think this is going to be like a jag thing where it doesn't matter if how bad the parent is. You have to, you know, some of the babies are going to come out kinked. So I would think that maybe this would fall in line to like, I know, let's see. So when I think of kinking, I think caramel albinos and ball pythons have kinking. Um, and I don't think that you can breed that out. Um, they've tried for years, uh, some do it, some don't. I think it's along the lines of that. The difference I think when it comes to the super zebra is the fact that I'm not sure, and I can't speak from experience, um, and I can't speak from anything that I've seen as far as female and eggs. Um, I don't even think we're at the point to where we really would have a whole lot of females that would be on eggs. You know what I mean? I don't, I don't think a whole lot of people have breeding super zebra's. Um, are you thinking that the super zebra on eggs, like the tail's going to mess with breeding females? Well, what no, what I was going to say is that, so when you're looking at the caramel albino and the ball python, um, one of the things that they used to talk about all the time was the fact that you never saw a caramel albino female on eggs. And the reason is because the kink was so bad that they wouldn't be able to, um, you know, wouldn't be able to even just lay the eggs. Um, oh, really? Yeah. So fortunately though, with, with, I don't see how the kink that's in a super zebra would affect that. I just, well, I want to say that also it comes with the anatomy of a carbon python versus a ball python. You're looking at a very short kind of stumpy tail, really close to the vent to a very, very long tail that's got a lot of room on it. So it might be just one of those things where, um, they can kind of like handle it a little bit more. And I've had a, I had a tiger that was born with a kink tail, just out of the blue, nowhere. And he had it far enough down on his tail that I was actually able to cut it off, um, right at the knock, which you probably would have fallen off eventually because when he shed, the skin kind of got caught around a little knot he had in his tail. And I was within talking with my vet, he said after he sheds a couple of times, it'll eventually get caught up, the blood will stop flowing to that and it'll, it'll pop off. So I was able to cut it off and that tiger worked out fine. I mean, he lived, he was good. He shed several more times and then I sold them off to somebody. But it's one of those things where, uh, I want to say that because of where the vent is and how long the tail is, that a female carpet python should, would hopefully not have any issues. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't, I don't know either, but I don't, Gary thought, I mean, you imagine if female super zebras just weren't able to lay eggs, uh, you know, I don't know. I mean, I'm just thinking out loud, you know, I would imagine that, you know, maybe Paul has false super. Maybe Todd and Carrie have them, um, that are breeding age, um, but it has one, doesn't he? Yeah, he might. I don't know. But I know Nick's attached a lot also with, uh, perfect tails, you know. So I don't think this would be a question that I would have to ask that. This is a genetics question for our buddy Travis. Um, so my thinking would be that, you know, everything is genetic, right? Yes. So if you breed, I guess this is where genetics goes to a whole nother level and we're just on basic genetics when it comes to us breeding pythons. But if you breed an un-king to an un-king, is it going to eventually lead to like not having, like, you know, so like, for instance, if you can breed for, you know, like, you could breed for, um, uh, disposition, you know, they've, we talked about that with the whole thing with the foxes to where they, they were able to make foxes like dogs, um, just by selective breeding, you were able to, you know, I, so I would think that, that, that would be genetic unless it's something to do with how the, you know, snake is formed a lot of the, that's the test. I mean, eventually we're going to have to test this and that would be the major test is if somebody like Jason took his super zebra and bred it to a super zebra from like Nick that both of them have no kinks on their tails, if the babies produced all came out with no kinks on their tails, then, then what do we do? I mean, does that mean that it was just a certain line or was it a certain type? It needs to be out-crossed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. It would open up a lot of questions that need to be answered, but in my thinking where we're going with this is that eventually when a non-kingt super zebra is bred to a non-kingt super zebra, we're going to get non-kinks and kinks. Yeah, you're going to get both, is what I think. Yeah, I would kind of be, will the albs kind of be a little bit favored more towards no kinks, maybe, but I still think you're going to get kinked tails, regardless. I think it's attached to the zebra gene, then the super form you have an issue with the tail, which is the way it's going to be. Yeah, so much so that even if you look at the teak in the blood pipes on world, so the the teak is basically looks like a zebra, same type of crazy, whack-out pattern, and then when you breed a petite to a petite, you get a patternless snake. There you go. Unfortunately, with short tails, they don't really have a long tail. Hey, short tails, yeah, oh my gosh. So that kink may cause problems. I don't know. Right there, yeah. This would be a question for Matt, but I think because our, you know, Morelia has prehensile tails and they're long, and that's what they got a lot to work with. Yeah. Yeah. That doesn't affect them. All right. So I hope that answers that question. Now, as far as the granite goes, now I look, I backlogged our catalog, because I know somewhere we had been on the show, and then I thought maybe I'd talk to them personally, but I know we talked about the fact that when they were doing, when they were doing the complete carpet python book, he did genetic testing on the granite. And they are basically inbred like crazy, crazy. Crazy. When it's horrid craziness, I mean, when we first, when I first got into it, one of the big names. Yeah. I was going to say this. Will Larry? One of the big names in carpet pythons was Will Larry, and a lot of the new people are not, are going to kind of know that name, but not really know. Will Larry was a breeder out of Carolinas. I think it was North Carolina. I'm going to say that Carolina is kind of a rebel, but he was the guy that originated with the whole MBB line, which stood for Madam Blueberry, which is one of his carpet pythons. He's the guy that took that Jaguar, Covergirl, Jungle, and that female Madam Blueberry and got everybody to buy those jags, and he was the guy that took, he was the first guy to start doing Tiger Jags with a breeding load for Balen. He got Covergirl. He did everything. He wrote numerous articles on how to breed carpet pythons. He was pretty much one of the first guys really to start making carpet pythons popular. Anyway, he, towards the later on, I mean, he got into granite. He was one of the first guys to have zebras in the country, and a few other things. He really was kind of into it. You knew he was getting ready to go with the granite, and he had this really cool website that was on numerous amounts of times, and he produces his first clutch of granite. Hold on, let me pause you for one second. Wasn't it cool to go to, you remember back in 2007, 2007, 2007, 2006, you would go to those carpet python websites and be like, "Oh, my God, I'm a guy." Oh, yeah. Jaguar Carpmen's Python. I think that's what I did. Wow. Go ahead. Sorry. Hold on. Real side note, real quick. In college, I was looking for a Jaguar. I saved up all my money from working my summer job in college, and I was talking to Ben and Justin, and I actually decided to go with a jag from Willyrie, because it was from Madam Blueberry and Benjamin, and I told Ben and Justin, "Sorry," and I went over and I bought this jag from them, Ben and Justin have never held it against me. They might, I guess later on, or if I keep reminding them of this story, where I almost bought a jag from them and went somewhere else. Because numerous people have told me that Willyrie would just pop him up out of nowhere and be like, "This one's from Madam Blueberry, Benjamin," and people would like backtrack on deals every which way to get Willyrie's animal. And I spent all my money on this jag, had to go down to Billy Airport to pick it up from Delta, and I was eating nothing but crackers and tuna for like a month, because that's all I could afford. So I didn't spend everything anyway. He gets ready to breed these granites, and everyone's kind of excited because granites were still fairly new in the United States. They were originated in the Netherlands, right? Yeah, yeah. That's one of the places. One of the places. Yeah. Good. No, no. Good. So I mean like, there wasn't really any over here, and people were starting to kind of try to figure out what the hell would this mean if it was mixed with this, if it was mixed with that. The granite jags were like rumors, so we're all kind of excited to see the granites. And Will posts up pictures that they're pipping, and everyone kind of gets excited. And then the next day he posts up more pictures, and all the granite babies were born with no eyeballs, none of them had eyes. And that's a big thing. It's like, this isn't one of those like if the collection hatched and maybe one had popped out with no eyeballs, it would have been one of those holy crap, and throw that one in the freezer. But the entire clutch had no eyeballs. And I'm not sure if he did granite to granite, or if he did granite to het. But at that point, we started to keep that pop up. Good. People shied away from, I think, the granite because of that. People baled because a lot of people, because he wasn't the only one, because there were numerous other people that were doing granite pairings, and someone who were doing granite to granite. And he started seeing no eyeballs in a few babies, a few clutches. So a lot of people started going away from the granite, like you literally saw a huge crash in the granite market. And now you're actually starting to see it decline back up again into where it's a reasonable morph and people are kind of asking for higher prices for their really good colored granite. And I believe that is the sole reason behind all this re-insurgence of granite is because people like Nick and a few other breeders took the time to take the granite and outcross. They went out. Yeah. Nick is probably the one that's outcrossed the most. He's like 90% outcross on with that, and that's just come taking wild caught IJs in crossing on with granite. Yeah. So here's the deal with talking to Paul and talking to Nick about this. So yeah, when they did granite to granite, it was a train wreck. One of the big things besides the no eyeballs is that these granites sort of have what I call jagged tendencies. They were jagged. Yeah. Yeah. They're not neuro like what you see with the, you know, with the jagged, but there's just, I don't know how to explain it, there's something off about them. I think they're, yeah, Terrell posted up a video about this over on the carpet python discussion board. Anyway, I actually have a male that came from Will Leary and that animal is again, it's not, it's not, you wouldn't say it was like a jag, but you wouldn't say it's like a regular carpet. There's something off. Now, they're super inbred. Now what I was trying to find was somewhere in our back catalog somewhere. We were talking, like I said, with Ben and they did the genetics testing or whatever, and they found out that those things are, like I said, super, super inbred. Now, when they went and made granite jags, I think was, yeah, granite jags was the first thing to get out crossed, right? So, you know, a coastal has nothing is not related to an IJ and, you know, it's not like any way, plot or any way or whatever. So you didn't see any of those problems, no issues, no, none of the birth defects, none of the bed clutches, like sometimes what you would see is that the female would have issues, laying eggs, you know, the eggs would go bad, blah, blah, blah, all these kinds of problems. Never saw that in any of the, you know, the morphs when they started crossing the morphs. So that started people thinking that it probably could be fixed with out crossed, which what we're seeing. Now, I have a granite female from Nick and when you compare the two, oh, completely different. So, and this is only slightly out crossed, again, it's not like, you know, it's not like, I think Nick is up there in like the 80% out cross now. He went crazy, which is awesome, which is a shame because that's what nobody, nobody is doing this with the granite. I see people breeding granites and they're just breeding a granite to a head and not doing anything because, you know, you don't get that visual, you know, oh, look, again, this is sort of what I was saying earlier about my past two seasons. It's like, I'm getting animals that is like, yeah, well, I'm not going to be able to post it on Facebook and people be like, ooh, that's so cool. But long term project, yeah, it's going to be cool. You know what I'm saying? So like, yeah, you really have to say congrats. You should. I mean, you have some wild caught eye, Jay, so I imagine at one point, you have nothing that they're doing and nothing your granite's doing. Oh, hell yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, it's done. And that's awesome. And it's just, it's one of those things where a lot of, and that's what I believe is why you end up having a re-insurgence with granite is because it's better that way. And that happens with a ton of recessive trade animals is no one gives a shit for the first couple seasons and first couple generations because all they want to do is recreate it. So you're having brother bread, the sister and brother bread, the sister and mother bread, the son and the blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's fine. But you have to out cross at some point or you're just dooming the entire project to having horrendous issues. So yeah, I, yeah, I, I, I agree, you know, so the more that these, you know, morphs and morph breeding and it's, it's inevitable that you're going to breed a parent and a, you know, especially if you have some kind of trait that you're trying to prove or something and that, you know, as a head, you know what I mean, you know, like you said, especially with recessive to get that visual, but as soon as you get that visual, you should start out, just my opinion, you should really start out crossing. It's like you with the poison ivy clutch, you're going to breed her son back to her. And then that clutch, let's say you get a bunch of black baby carpets, the next thing you're going to do is take one of those black baby carpets and probably throw it to a wild cloud ij because now you have complete new blood in there and then you can do whatever the hell you want with it. So yes, what people tend to forget is that to stabilize it, you got to go out, you got to go out and come back in. That's why I'll do a pair from siblings, I'll do a pair of siblings once and then after that I'm going out. So it's like, it's, that's also kind of why I know we were talking about why I'm so female happy right now is that sometimes I don't like buying 1.1 for one breeder because all you're getting is siblings. I like to maybe buy one year or one there, you know, make my own, but buy something else. Like I have tigers that I'm raising up right now that aren't, that are going to be old enough in a few years, but if I go get this male tiger right now, he's completely unrelated to every single tiger I have here. Right, so I hope that answers the question. I think one of the cool things that I see with carpets is that people are pretty, pretty open about any issues I know and some, you know, some, I guess, royal pythons come to mind when it's, you know what I mean, you know, that they try to hide these things, but the idea that you're, you're going to have just normal animals when you're working with basically genetic defects, it's surprising that you don't see it more often, really. I mean, it is, it is, it is really the honest truth as, you know, you, I just, I just think that you just be open and you just, you know, some people, you know, kind of like for instance with the jag, they once a little bit controversial back in the day where people would say, no, my jags don't do it, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, that was the funniest shit in the world. And what was weird is, is that I went through that with, you know, coming up into the carpet on the python world and then when the jags made it to Australia, they sort of went through the same thing and like we were already, we already were past it and we just accepted that, yes, they're, this is what it is, you know, they're dead and you're not going to have the magical white snake, never going to happen, but you know, you know what's funny is that one of the lies I was told when I was coming up in carpet pythons when it came to the jag, it's like, you know what, there's a strain of jag in Australia, really, that has no neurological disorder at all. And you're listening to this guy tell you that his jags came from the strain of jags from Australia that have no neurological disorder at all, right. And you all, like in my brain is like melting inside of my skull because that's not where jags came from and they don't have jags in Australia. And all jags have narrow, it's like sometimes the dumbest shit comes out of people's mouths when it comes to snakes and what they can try to get you to believe in order to make a sale. Like I honestly got, had one guy come up to me and like the biggest of Brooklyn accents and tell him, tell me how his friend, he, he keeps his bowlins in his garage like a corn snake. And they breed every year for him. Oh, I remember that, but get, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't post it anywhere or sell them. Forget about posting like, you know, because people that are on Facebook, yeah, shut your damn mouth. Yeah. That's funny. And it's, and the people at, at reptile shows, the people who before you get plugged into herftic culture, like there was a guy who every year would always have baby waitlets and baby scrubs and baby chondros and he would tell me about his fantastic collection at home and I would got his waitlets breed every year, love it, love it, as I got older and I found out about Cam in Cam's list. You started seeing everything that was on Cam's list appearing on this guy's table. I tell you about how magical the breed were. He got rough scales, the one show and I'm like, how'd you get the rough skills? He goes, I got a breed in hair and they're doing great on bullshit bullshit. It just appeared on Cam's list. It's like, you know, it, yeah, so you got to take what a lot of people say with a grain of rig and salt when it comes to a lot of shit like that. Yeah, it's on, eventually down the road someone's going to say, hey man, my super zebra never throws king tails. Yeah, it's almost as bad as that. You know, there's like a picture of this girl and she's in a bed and there's like a long thing stretched out next to her and there's a story that says basically, oh, little Susie slept with the snake for 14 years until finally, you know, Fluffy, Fluffy decided that, you know, she's no longer a bedmate. She's now going to be food. So he started sizing her up and Fluffy laid alongside of her every night, you know, to see if he could swallow her. So I got a real funny story is that I'm mailing all the calendars out, right? And I'm in the post office and the lady says to me, oh, boy, what are you mailing? You know, and she's looking at, you know, some are going to Australia, some are going to Africa, some are going to the Netherlands. She's like, this guy, what are you mailing? And I'm like, uh, they're, they're calendars. Oh, really? What kind of calendars? I was like, they're snake calendars. She's like, what? You would have thought that there was a snake in the, in the freaking calendar. You guys would make the work, you know, she's like, I'm a snake in the calendar. So, so she says to me, oh, well, my cousin, she keeps snakes or no, my cousin's husband keeps snakes. You know what happened? They put it in the bed and she goes to tell me the story and I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. You gotta get him. You're like, I just read this on Facebook. Are you serious? I'm gonna say the story. Oh, man. It may be so bad. I had this. And then you, and then you have a point, you have this, you have this thought in your mind at this point. Do you stop the lady and correct them and be the asshole, right? Or do you just let this do? No. You know what I mean? You're like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And I was like, some people are beyond saving, you just got to let it ride and go. Yeah, I said, I said, read more hours. I said, no, I'm not letting this one ride. I had a bad day of work, standing there in the thing, and I was like, no, that's bullshit. That's complete bullshit. Yeah. Like, what do you mean? It's bullshit. I said, no, that's the story. I don't think so. First of all, if I was a constrictor, cannot swallow a person. It's impossible. Oh, no. I don't do it. Oh, my God. Okay. I love it. I love it when I would go to, I would do the educational programs. I would be there with a kinks thing, like, oh, he's going to try to eat at them, but what the hell are you thinking? Do you see the size of this animal compared to you? Yeah. It's great. I just can't, you just can't, like, sometimes you just can't let stupid people continue to be stupid. You know, it's like, you know, I know sometimes it's not worth it, but it's like, oh, my God. For whatever reason, I'm sitting there, I was like, I just want to mail these calendars. Why do you have to tell me your bullshit story? You know, it's a lie. You're telling me the story, like, you know, like, come on, no, it's bullshit. Well, my, my favorite is still the, so you keep snakes. You know, I went outside once and killed one with a shovel. That's lovely. Thank you. Thank you for telling me how you, how one time you murdered an animal with a stick. Yeah. You know, you, you got a dog? Let me tell you a story. It's like, what the hell is wrong with you? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. But anyway, how'd we get on that topic? I think that answers Mike's question. See what else we got. All right. Let's keep the controversy going. Yes. That's what I'm talking about. So here's a controversial topic. So I'm going to speak to this and I think that me and you, Owen, have no idea what it's all about. But apparently there was some drama in the Kondra world. I don't, I really don't know what it's about, but one thing that I hear a lot is like these people that are sort of maybe high up in the, you know, in the reptile world, you know, like people that, like they sell to a lot of people or they're well known or people look up to them or whatever. And here's my question. If you're a well-known breeder and you are really being shitty, like you're not, you're not, you're not being good for the animals and you're not treating people right. You're not doing the right thing, et cetera, et cetera. Why do they continue to get a pass? And then, you know what pisses me off when it comes to that is you see like somebody post up a pic and they're like, they have like five snakes, you know, and they're just, they're post up and it's like, you know, all of a sudden there's like these reptile, you know, police have been waiting all day, you know, for this person to post up a pic. And it's just like, oh, we're just going to have at you, you know, and, and they just freaking release the hounds and let the person have it. But their idol quote unquote, you know, whoever that would be, you know, they do the same shitty shit and somehow they get a pass. Have you experienced that? I've seen that. I've seen it. I've not experienced it, but I've seen it where it's like the same, somebody who's well-known in the industry or has been around forever, kind of gets their free pass on doing some really crappy things, whereas a newbie is like crucified for it and it's kind of like one of those things where I do believe correcting a newbie, a new person early, it will prevent them from making the same mistakes that other people have made and that's also also correcting behaviors, they'd be like, I don't know, you really don't want to do that, you want to do this. But there's also a way to do it. There's a way to do it and there's a way to be a jackass. So you know, there's helping somebody out and then there's being a stuck-up shmuck. So and that's just kind of how it goes where, you know, you can definitely advise people with, you know, don't, don't, don't be a jerk about it. But I have seen where people will get a pass because they've hooked up a lot of people in the past or, you know, they're friends with all the higher ups or they're an admin of this out of the other thing. And to be honest, I don't believe anybody gets a free pass because the second you start slipping is the second you become not deserving of all that acclaim that you have. But you know, I think everybody has the possibility of making mistakes. You know, I mean, all of us are at some point are going to make mistakes. I don't think that the mistake, if this is just my feeling, the mistake is not the problem. It's how you handle the mistake, that's exactly the problem. And that's, that's the thing at the core of all of all of Perpeticulture. I mean, you know, you can have a DOA, it is not anybody's fault, it's a DOA. And, you know, it could be like, everything was packaged correctly, but somehow the heat pack slipped and cooked the baby or the FedEx guy didn't get to the house or the dude receiving and had an emergency and had to leave. It's like, it does happen and it's just how you deal with it. You apologize. You make it right. You send the animals. You can have an animal that's out on breeding load where, you know, it's worked out every time and it's worked out perfectly and then all of a sudden something happens and that animal dies. You know, it could be a complication through breeding. It could be a bunch of, again, it might not be anybody's fault, it's just how you deal with it. You know, obviously the owner of the animal is compensated, you apologize, because usually you move forward. It's the guys who will try to fight you on things and be like, yeah, I will, you know, obviously you didn't do this and obviously you didn't do that. It's when people get hot heads and refuse to compromise with each other and work with each other. It's like, well, the animal is a $200 animal. I'll give you the amount of money it costs, you know, plus a little bit extra because I feel bad. Really, you're going to give me $3,000. Well, now we got a problem. So it's like, and that's when Board of Inquiry is getting involved, the problem is a lot of Board of Inquiry is now our friends and friends and insiders talking about this and the other thing. And it's sometimes you don't get a fair shake at a Board of Inquiry. So yeah, I mean, yeah, if you, if it's like, you know, for instance, if somebody, obviously we're out in the public eye, you know, so obviously when you're out in the public eye, you know, people are going to like you and there's going to be people that hate you, you know what I mean? And that just comes along with it. I don't care. Yeah. You do. I, but this part of the network of skin, I mean, like, dude, that's what I mean. The first couple of seasons of NPR, I absolutely hated being so thrown up in amongst everything and being involved in everything. And I felt that needed to weigh in on everything. Now I just don't care. It's like, well, I think the thing that, I think, I think the thing, I know we're getting a little bit off topic, but I think the thing that with NPR, right, is like I've had people and I've seen people and they'll ridicule that we said something wrong or that we made a mistake or we'd said this and this is not true or whatever, like blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's, and what, what, what people forget is that when you're doing this, sometimes you're talking and like the whole idea of the show was is that, okay. So if you approach somebody at a reptile show and you want to talk to a breeder, but you can't necessarily talk to the breeder because, you know, he has snakes to sell or whatever. That sort of the show, it's not, it's not a scientific show, you know, although sometimes we try to get into that realm, we're not scientists, you know, and we don't claim to be. I'm not a herpetologist, you know, I'm not, you know, I'm learning, I learn every episode that we do. And sometimes we'll say things and, you know, two episodes later, somebody will say, no, that wasn't wrong. I remember Travis women, he contacted us and he said, you know, you had asked a question and you're totally wrong. And this is what the case is. We're the first ones to admit when we fuck up. First people, if you send us an email and say, you guys are more, you can even put that. You guys are more on something like, all right, how so, and if you put down how we screwed up, we will be the first people on the next episode to say, alright, here's what we did wrong. Here's who told us how to do it. And this is what he said completely if you, if you don't do that, but then feel like you're going to run around on Facebook and be like, no, guys don't know anything, we'll lock off. Congratulations. You've put us in our place, it whatever, it, if you want to help us make the show better, we love it. Love you. You know, the people that, the people that cracks me up because the people that ridicule, you know, they could go and get their own podcast, and they could talk about it. When this, when the fuck is yours there, I didn't see it. You know. Yeah. So, so that doesn't bother me, but the first couple, the first, yeah, the first couple years that it was hard to, yeah, because, you know, you're like, dude, I really don't know much about this. I don't think I should comment. I'm just crying. What are you talking about? It was like, what do you think going what, like, yeah, it's like, I have no opinion on this. It's like, I told you that so many times, like, what are you thinking, I don't know, I don't care. So it's like, it's one of those things where it was, it's gotten better with time. Yeah. So, well, because we have more experience and we've talked to people and we learn stuff and, you know, it's, it's a constant learning, yeah, we've had those all night, like on Facebook, planting and ravings and realize that it's really going to help. And that it's really pointless and we'd much rather be sleeping. So, you know, it's one of those things. So, yeah, so I guess, I guess what just to say, I guess, okay, so here's an example of where I'm just going to talk off the cuff and when I talk off the cuff, sometimes I may say things that people may take wrong or whatever, but this is my thing. So, if somebody is doing something wrong, right, and clearly they're wrong, I think the first course of action would be to contact that person, not on the frickin' internet, you know what I mean, you know, either call in the email, yeah, that's what I mean. You say, hey man, this is the situation, I think that this is messed up. What can we do to fix the problem, you know? At that point, you give them an opportunity to fix the problem and if they don't, I think to a certain extent you have an obligation to let that be known because other people could be buying from that person. So, if you have company, this company, and they're selling, you know, they're selling carpet pythons and they're just, you know, selling left and right to everybody thinks they're the greatest thing, they have the coolest stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But let's say that they all have, I don't know, they have a huge respiratory illness going through their collection and you contact the person and you say, hey, listen, I had a snake, I had it for a day, and it's dead, you know, what can we do, you know? So if the person that's selling the carpet pythons, because I think to a certain extent, I think humans, people sometimes will be in a position, I've seen this, to where they're making the sales so they don't give a shit anymore. You see this in business all the time, but like, you take my business, for example, right? So, if you're selling, you know, everybody's coming in, you have to bribe bread and milk and you don't really have competition and you're sort of the people, you just, eventually, what happens is you start to get cocky. You never want to get cocky, you start saying shit that, you know, I don't need you, I don't need your business, get the hell out of here, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I got 10 other people that are lined up here that want this. If you don't want it, go scratch, so you tell the person that goes scratch and, you know, behind the scenes, everybody's getting these snakes and they're, they're all, you have this issue, they're all dying, whatever, so people are out, all this money. I think that that's, you have an obligation to let people know that, you know, this person is not right. And what bothers me is that people that would be, that would be like, let's say, I don't know, let's say carpet python breeder A is breeding carpet pythons and has this issue and mean you know about it, but yet we don't tell, like somebody comes along and they say, oh, I'm going to buy a carpet python from blah, blah, blah, and we, we don't say anything. You know what I mean, that to be, that's, that's what I think is wrong when it comes to that. I think that just like, I think that, and again, I don't, I didn't read the numerous threads that were over there on the, on the candro forum, MDF, nor do I even care anymore at this point about that kind of drama, doesn't, I don't have time for that bullshit. Yeah, but no, but I guess, I guess the thinking is that when you have a snake, like a candro, you have this higher end animals, you know, where you think that higher end people are going to be. And that's not always the case, man, you know what I mean, like you're going to have scumbag, like I know that ball pythons get a bad rap because they have some scummy people but they also have some great people. And you know, I think that that's not a, you're going to find that in carpet pythons, you're going to find that. You're going to find that with everything, no, they're not the golden snake on the stick. It's like, you're going to have, you're going to have shit and drama no matter where you go. So the, the, the issue that kind of comes in is that with certain condos, you know, it's not, the exactly, I mean, if you're looking at a couple thousand dollars for a candro and end up being something that you didn't expect or something not right with it, I mean, that's, that's got a stick to the, I mean, imagine if you go and drop your money on rough scales and then the first rough scales you get is something wrong with it. I mean, yeah, and, and $5,000 on an animal. It's one of those things of like, if you are, I mean, it's only, it's one of those things of like, you, you can approach the breeder and give them a chance to correct the problem. But as a breeder, if you care anything about your reputation as a breeder in the reptile community, and there's some people say they don't give a shit, and that's not true because you live and you die in the reptile industry by your reputation. I've seen people who just totally think that they don't need to impress or play nice with anybody, just wash out. They just, it happens where I have seen people who think that they can get all these animals on credit and then not pay for them, and they, dude, that, this isn't how this works. It's like, again, you live and you die by your reputation. You have one bad deal, and it will stick with you for the rest of your reptile career. Now, I'm not saying that one mistake is going to ruin you. I'm saying, hey, you handle the mistake. I've already talked about it, DOA, you can have one DOA that you handle horribly, and it'll be with the rest of your life. But you can have five DOAs that you handle spectacularly, and no one's going to talk about it. Did you remember the picture I sent you, said, I can't remember who this was or who did this, but I was cruising around, it was on, I want to say, it wasn't one of the ball python groups that I'm a member of. Oh, God, oh, that one, the recent one, oh, yeah, oh, tell them what it was. So this guy orders, I don't know, some kind of leucistic something, and I guess it's still, for whatever reason, whatever genes are floating in this, it's still with somewhat of a high-end animal. I can't remember exactly, but the person I think paid upwards, maybe a grand, something like that, above 500. And the animal was shipped, and it had like five heat packs in it. And the styrofoam was all jaggedy-cut. The freaking box was like, you know, the whole box that you moved when you were in college, and you saved it. And now you're like, you know, in your 30s or something, and you still have this box, so you just went to his garage and picked out a box, and was like, all right, this will do. Cut some freaking styrofoam. It looked like you broke it, you know what I mean, like broke a piece off all jaggedy-ed. There was some newspaper, and then the animal wasn't even in a bag. Yeah, it was just in the box, you know, and the box almost always freaking heat packs. Oh my God, I gotta see if I still have those pictures, and I'll post it over. And the group... We have the nerve to look surprised when it arrives dead, and it's almost like the people who are like, "I ship the animals, and I suck." Thank you. Thank you for not giving your shit about the animal, it's like, dude, you and I talked when I ship an animal, I'm a nervous freaking wreck, all right? Yeah. It's like, I'm like, all right, your destination, please, just go there and be happy. It's like, and I've had animals that arrive at the person's house, and I found out the heat pack didn't turn on, and they arrived cold, but they survived, and they were happy, and they were fine. I've had one D.O.A., I've had one freaking D.O.A. in my entire career, and that thing pissed me off so bad it was ridiculous, but, you know, obviously that animal died, and then I shipped out, it was a jag, which killed me. So I shipped out another jag, female, and a three male to go with it, and that guy did nothing but sing my praises for the rest of the time we ever did business. That's just how it works. You gotta, sometimes you gotta knuckle and be like, all right, well, you know, shit happens, you know what, I'm gonna make sure you're happy. So, and packing animals, like I said, is one of the most stressful things ever, because I'm always worried something's gonna happen, even though knock on wood, nothing ever has, but it'd be like, even when a Vulcan and Romulus came to me, they were in a Styrofoam box with one of those little mitten warmers. [laughs] That's crazy. I just want to understand, like, how you could have an animal that costs so much, a freaking heat pack cost what, baby what, three bucks, you know, a box that has to like, Styrofoam costs. Come on, man, take some pride. I thought they were dead, because they were in the containers and it was cold, I thought they were dead. I was about ready to lose my mind, and then I opened them up, I picked up Romulus, and I'm like, he's dead, and then he did the threat display, it was, oh my god, so I literally filled up a big, one of those really big-ass Fuji bottles, I had one, and I filled it up with hot water, and I put it down on my desk, because I hasn't delivered to work, and I put Vulcan and Romulus on top of the Fuji bottle, and they sat there, coiled in certain, a little perfect circles on my desk for at least like, three hours, and then they started moving around and warming up and doing their thing, and I'm like, all right, you guys are good, so I put them back in their Styrofoam containers. I had brought heat packs from home, so I put them in the Styrofoam container along with the Fuji bottle right up against the radiator, terrified, I thought they were dead, so you're right, you have these two high dollar animals, and you can even put a 72 hour heat pack. I send all my animals on priority overnight shipping with a 72 hour heat pack, just in case the truck explodes or something, and they're left on the side of the road for a day, it's like, you gotta, you gotta be able to pack these things correctly and take pride in that kind of stuff, so, right, yeah, I mean, like, I posted the pictures over in the chat, and then it's kind of my point, that, you know, we should have hires, that's kind of my pony, that's kind of my pony, we're doing well today, we're doing good, yeah, oh my goodness, anyway, excellent typo, anyway, that's kind of my point is that, you know, that person, come on, man, look at the, like, a tin foil that's around the Styrofoam is the best, like, somehow that's gonna insulate, you know, the box, this is gonna be warped, yeah, just buy a copy of a box, pony, oh, nice jerk, anyway, and he likes pony, he's like pony, anyway, yeah, stop playing online, but it's, you do need to, it's like, you take pride in your product, you take pride in your animal, you take pride in your project, why wouldn't you take pride in getting it there to your customer, because opening that box is an extension of your company, it's like, when people open up a box for me, you open up the box and it has the, your packing slip with my header and a letter saying thank you for your business, blah, blah, blah, because it was exactly what's in the box, everything right there, and a, and my business card, you move the Styrofoam, it has the animal which is usually in a snake bag with paper towels inside the snake bag, and then it's surrounded by either shredded paper or some of the kind of packing material all around, already Styrofoam with the 72 hour heat pack, it's like, yeah, dude, it costs me a pretty good amount of money to get all my shipping supplies to buy the big box of 72 hour heat packs, and I buy in bulk all my shipping boxes, but it's a brand new box, every time, so I will only really set, I will never really reuse a box, if it was brand new when it came to me, and I have, and if it's perfectly with one of the animals, but if it's a baby box, those are brand new every time, so, it's just, you know, you gotta, you gotta, like I said, you gotta take pride in your own stuff, yeah, so, yeah, I don't know, that's what I took from that, from that whole conversation, and again, I don't even really know what that, what it was all about, so it's not, I'm sort of taken from what, you know, sort of drifted and took off the top, and then sort of made it into our own topic, so to speak, so, it kind of dribbled over, I mean, it, what, what I think the main takeaway is, is that, you know, it, there are so many entities, and so many people, and so many things out to ruin the reptile industry, that we need to hold ourselves to a higher standard, or, they don't need help, guys, like they really, really don't, and to be honest, there have been several conversations that I've had with certain people, that if you look at certain things, it's like, you know, we're, we, we aren't helping, like, you know, this is, there, there are a lot of keepers out there, that are not helping the cause, that are not helping the argument to keep these animals, to keep government agencies from taking said animals, or outlawing those animals, it's, it's one of those, like I said, they don't need help, I mean, one of the major statistics that HSUS, and a few other places are sticking to, is that the majority of captive tiles, or the majority of reptiles will die in captivity, of, not of old age, and doing something like this, where you ship it incorrectly, is, you're helping, you're, you just added to that statistic a little bit, it's like, care a little bit more pleased, so it's, it's one of those things where you, you, you represent all of us, you know, regardless of what you do, or how much business you do, or how many reptiles keep, so definitely hold yourselves to a higher standard. Absolutely, I guess we'll keep the, we'll finish with this, again, we didn't hit on all the topics we were supposed to, yeah, maybe we have to have two, yeah, so, but this, I thought was interesting, again, Daniel Harris posted up this post over in the Carper Python discussion board, and I just was curious on your thoughts as well, and I'll sort of, maybe, I put a little bit of a long post, so I figured that, you know, I'd make a point to make sure that people understood my point, but basically, he was basically saying that, that a topic that was bugging him a lot, that people would rather lower the price to make a sale nowadays, you know, so would you lower a price to sell versus someone else, or do you believe that you produce high quality, which calls for a higher price, all right, so I'll, go ahead, oh, and you tell me your thoughts, and then I'll send my, I will, I will never undercut a fellow carpet breeder, so if some guy at a reptile show thinks that he can play off of myself, and let's say, like, Jason, at, like, Hamburg, and be like, hey, man, you got your tiger here for, like, 250, I know a guy over there, it's got it for 200, but, okay, you know, I'm not going anywhere than 250, like, I will not sit there and be like, oh, really, well, you know, how about, I'll give it to you for 150, it's like, I'm not going to sit there and play those kind of games, and that's just my own personal mentality, I don't want to deal with that, but I believe that I have quality animals, and I believe that my animals prices are fair, and I will definitely give price breaks to repeat customers because they're like friends and family discount, but I will not undercut or undersell my own animals either, I won't cheapen them, so just because you see a carpet python on somebody else's table for a hunter bucks doesn't mean that it's the same as having a line-bred morph animal at my table, so just because you see a jungle carpet for a hundred dollars doesn't mean it's just going to be the same, that doesn't mean I'm going to drop mine down to a hundred dollars so you can buy it, I'd rather take it home with me, because I don't care how long it takes for me to sell this damn thing, it's, I'm not, this isn't my main source of income, I don't need the sale, I don't justify everything to have to get it all done, if I have to take it home, that's cool, that's one less slot I need to fill next show, because this won't just be here, and eventually somebody will pay the price that I have labeled the animal for, and you know it's one of those things where people are like man I wish there was some guy when I first started breeding and said man I love your jags, I'm just waiting for about a year for now when you drop your prices, and I pulled him straight to his bed, I said well you do understand in a year from now the prices are going to go up, and he goes what do you mean, I'm like well they'll be older, that male will be almost breeding age, prices go up, they don't go down, so he was going to shock with that one, and then the next show after that he bought an animal, so it's like sometimes I'll never drop my prices to meet somebody and I don't care if I make a sale, but there are some people out there who do, and will drop sales, but I think once we start doing the stupid ping ponging stuff, I mean I usually will price any animals that I have at a show that are repetitive, like if I have tigers and Jason Bell and Ed Tigers and Howard has tigers, I'll either price them the same, or let's say mine are younger than Jason's, then I'll usually do like 20 bucks maybe lower, because you can get mine that's younger and cheaper, or you can go buy the older, better one from Jason, I mean that's just really how it goes, and dude there are days where I'll make a couple sales or he'll make a couple sales and I'll make nothing, it kind of goes back and forth, there's enough room for everybody, and if you play it correctly you will sell out all your babies, it may not be within a month of you producing them, you may have to hold on to some for a year, I still have a pair of 2013 carmels that are still here, the male is in with one of my females, if he breeds, I hate to break it to everybody, but he's a proven breeding male and now his prices went up even further, so it's just one of those things where it doesn't matter, so well with me I have many thoughts when it comes to this type of topic, but I guess the thing that is sort of the same as you is that one of the things I learned early on is that you only produce what you can take care of, again that's why I don't go crazy, you know when you're looking at my collection of carpet pythons, you're looking at 150 carpet pythons, maybe even more, I don't know, I stopped counting, but with a collection like that if I really wanted to I could really be pumping out carpet pythons and I just think that to do that at this point it's just, I don't know, it just doesn't make any sense for me, you know, so the first person I breed for is myself, you know, I spend a lot of time, I've researched a lot of, you know, spent a lot of time on the internet talking to breeders, developing relationships with, you know, when I wanted a tiger carpet I found who had the best and that's the guy I went to, you know, Balen was the guy I needed to get a carpet python tiger from, when I started looking for bread lie, you know, again Nick mutton's name came up, that's how me and Nick started talking, you know, when I started getting into these crazy morphs, Paul Harris, and you know, this is, it's just like, you know, I tried to track down the best examples of the animals that I could from specific pairings, put my name on a list, you know, put in deposits on animals, you know, before they're even hatched and all these, all these things just to have this specific animal to fit into the pairing, you know, to me, that makes my animals probably more valuable than what you're willing to pay for them, you know what I mean, which is sometimes why I have a hard time selling snakes because to be honest, that's the part I hate most about the snake hobby, just the selling part of it, because what I think the snake is worth is probably not what you think it's worth and it's gonna fight about it, yeah, that's fine, I'm not telling you at the buy the snake, but I'm still not going to give it to somebody that I don't know, or has never bought anything from me and probably never will buy again from me, you know, a snake, so that being said, if you have bought for me in the past, or you're in what I call my inner circle or something like that, yeah, absolutely I'm going to hook you up, but I never would advertise that, no, there's a difference between what you will sell something for and what you're gonna advertise something for, I mean, if you call me and you've bought in five of my animals and you really want this and, you know, you know, and I have it listed for 250 for you, you can take it for this much, I mean, that's how it works, so, and, you know, I think that the idea that you can, you know, that you're gonna somehow go out and buy, like you're gonna buy the best examples and then, you know, putting them together and then all of a sudden, you're just gonna be able to sell them with no problem, you know, like the whole thing of, well, the snakes will sell themselves, to me, that's bullshit, you can't, you just can't do that because people don't know you, they won't trust you, they're not gonna, you know, you need to build up a strong customer base, you need to, whether, you know, that requires work, websites and, you know, go into shows and, you know, post it on Facebook and taking good pics and answering the stupid questions, all those things that take time out of your day, you know, but that's how you develop relationships with people. I think the one thing that upsets me when it comes to pricing is, especially when it comes to something rare is that when a group of, you know, if you, I'll use zebra jags as an example, okay, so the first people to produce zebra jags in the States were myself, Cara King and Jason Bailin. I remember being a tindly that year and we had zebra jags and, well, I spent 5,000 for my zebra jag, okay, so what do we put them at? Do we put it at, do you put it at, you know, 2,000? Is that a reasonable price? Well, how many years have passed since you paid 5? Yeah, maybe 2, a year and a half, something like that. I would have put them at 3 1/2 and see what happened. Well, this is the thing, we went back and forth, what do we put it, what do we do? But the point is, is that me and Bailin carried to some extent, I don't think Carrie was at that show when we were doing it, but to some extent, we had a conversation. I think Carrie had already put up a price and, you know, but talked by email, like, this is, this is what I'm going to do, blah, blah, blah. But I guess where I would have a problem with this situation is, is if I'm in the show with Jason, then he comes up and he says, what are you going to put this at? And I say, I'm just using an example, 2,000 bucks, okay, okay, it seems like a reasonable amount of money for this, blah, blah, blah, I'm willing to do that, okay, we'll put them both at $2,000. So at this point, we're, you know, our animals and the money is on equal playing field. Now, Jason has the advantage because he's been doing it longer, he has a, he has a big customer base, yeah. Right, a better well, he's better well-known within the carpet community and rightfully so, you know. So I would be a total douchebag if I said, well, he has the advantage. I know we said 2,000, but I'm going to make mine 1,500. Well, also, it's a big head move. It is. And also, if you all agreed on 2,000, how do you know that Bailin hasn't been in contact with other customers who might want to pick up an animal at Kindly, and he's like, all right, well, look at the price, too. He's going to be $2,000. All right, and then they get there and then they've already paid $2,000 of this animal, they pick it up. And as they're walking past Bailin's table after they've just picked up their $2,000 animal, they see them on your table for 15. I mean, you kind of did there, because you kind of just like cut Bailin's ankle stuff from underneath them. And that happened a lot, I'm told, in a lot of other reptile markets, whatever happened in carpet python. Well, I think so. And I think last year you saw that a lot. And I think that was what a lot of drama was that was in the carpet python world. I think that there was a lot of people that were had these morphs. And, you know, obviously, that's where it was at. And everybody was racing to try to be the guy to sell it. So that's why we're racing to the bottom. It's like you're racing to the bottom of the pool. Correct. It's horrible. So what I, my approach, and this is just me, my approach was, is that, okay, rather than waste time arguing with everybody about, you know, the market, and this, and that, and all this stuff, and blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, well, my focus is going to be trying to grow the market. You guys are trying, I mean, eventually it comes to a point where you're just selling to each other. And that's just, you know, that's fine. But you're not going to get the amount of money that you want. And I know, I guess it's all relative as far as like, you know, it snakes only work, but somebody's going to pay for it, blah, blah, blah. I get all that. But I think we undervalue our animals quite a bit. And I think that, you know, the amount of time, like, what's your time worth? You know, there was a, on that same thread, there was a, there was a video about, there was this guy and he was talking about, he was talking about art, basically, but it kind of falls into the same type of thing. And in the video, the guy's like, you know, people don't understand what all goes into this. And, you know, if you want to apply that to snakes, again, I go back to the thing, like, people don't understand, like, okay, so for us, well, I'll speak for me, you know, my, I have two websites, well, actually three websites that, that it's run, you know, we got, we played that radio, I got my own personal E.B. Morelia, then there's Carpetfest, you know, think about the work that goes into the weekly podcast about Carpet Python. Think about the collection that I have, you know, and, and, you know, then you got the Carpetfest when you're trying to, you know, put on an event and the planning and the stuff that goes, that's all involved with that. You know, that's a lot of work. And for me to sit here and say that, you know, okay, well, this snake is worth 60 bucks, you know what I mean? It's like, yeah, it's like, okay, so I, I have no problem like what I saw happen in last year. And it's sort of like really geared my season for this year. And again, why I breed for myself, and maybe I'm stupid, and maybe I shouldn't be this way. But to me, the overall community is what matters more so than an individual sale. And that could be because this isn't my job. You know, this is something that I'm just passionate about, you know, I just dig Carpet Python and I don't want to see them become worthless, throw away animals, you know, because they're not. And the idea that, you know, like something else, I know this is a bit off topic, but something else, I hope that doesn't get lost. You know, I'm thinking about this as I'm having these thoughts and looking through stuff. And I think about back in the day, how cool a tiger jag was, you know what I mean? Like, you know, like when you first saw the time, I mean, for me, it was like, wow, tiger jag, dude, that is so freaking cool. I think I bought a tiger jag, Matt has it now, I gave it to Matt, but I bought that tiger jag from Balen, because I think it was like 900 bucks, you know what I mean? 900 bucks or a tiger jag. And my first jag was 12, and then my second jag was a grin. So yeah, yeah. So what dude, it was beautiful, you know, I was just paying it forward because of what, you know, Condro people did for me, so to get people in the carpets, you know, you got to pay it forward. But beautiful snake, but I worry that people won't think about that anymore. You know what I mean? Like, you have like the guys that are doing morphs and stuff, and they're sort of just like, I hope we don't fall into this thing where nobody pays attention to that kind of stuff, because I was looking at, you know, as I look at ball pythons and stuff, the thing that I see time and time again is that you've got these guys that try to put as many genes as they can, and there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that at all, but what sort of, you know, if you got six genes in an animal, sometimes the example that you get, like, yeah, I guess from a breeder standpoint is cool but from an actual the look of the snake is like it's like a nearly patternless brown spudged animal who wants that like if you think about like if you go and you breed I don't know I'm just gonna throw out you know albino super examic head for hippopotamus you know blah blah blah blah blah you you insert as many genes as you possibly can think of yeah like a super caramel granite zebra jag head albino you know caramel hypo sungal you know what I'm saying like you have this kind of crazy animal and it looks like dog shit and then you have a tiger tag which is freaking sweet what's worth more you know what I mean like that and that's the kicker it's like you need to be able to appreciate every animal for what it is but correct unfortunately the price for is for a tiger jack is like 200 bucks right now because everybody has or everybody who would normally be most of people who would normally be interested in a tiger jack have them by now so they're not gonna buy them so really what you're trying to do is appeal to the people who are just getting into carpified on they probably aren't gonna spend two grand for an animal off the bat so well I'm not saying I'm not saying that necessarily yeah you're right they're not gonna run out and they're not gonna buy an animal so like you have to have entry-level animals and this is sort of like I would always ask this for you know like when we have Kondro people on and now I'm gonna pose it to the carpet python world like I would always say the Kondro breeders like why doesn't anybody do like a on a roof pairing or like a be a you know like why doesn't anybody focus like it would seem that you know you would be able to you have these animals that come in and they're farm raised or farm hatched or whatever and they go for like you know anywhere from 300 to say 500 depending on locality and the availability of said locality at the time like why wouldn't you want to have those animals of veil like I don't understand that but now we're having the same thing like who who's producing tiger jacks I know how are you concerned I guess you are okay but you know I mean like who's really like I guess you are too but like who who is going and saying you know what I think you know who comes to mind when I think about this is Howard you know I've had conversations with him and he says you know I'm just focusing on this is what I'm focusing on and this is what I'm doing and you know he's going to have I guess there's going to be a point where he'll have and you know possibly you if that's what your focus is the nicest tiger jags around and you may be able to put your tiger jags at 500 where somebody else is putting that to an example of that would be what John did with his gamma jags you know I mean his diamond jungle jags were a thousand bucks where at the same time you can sell a jag for 300 bucks you know what I'm saying so well you remember Mo with her jungle jags I mean the jungle jags were driving to about hundred bucks with Mo kept her but like jungle jags especially her 88 percenters they were up there in three four hundreds yeah so it's like sometimes you get a build your market make it better so yeah so yeah I just think that you know when it comes to pricing and what not it's it's kind of a tough thing but damn man take a pride you know I think that you should definitely my thought is that you should definitely you know not if not try to just say oh this is worth you know nothing from the gate you know put put put put some what did what did you put into that animal and try to think about it that way I bet you people would have a whole different ballgame if you sound on an animal for 200 bucks and you know you divide it out how much time you spent to produce that animal and how much money it's cost to produce that animal like you know you would you would not be making money and some people it's not about making money and that's fine but I think you should just worry about producing stuff that you if you have to sit on it you know then you have to sit on it seems like the snake world is kind of like you probably know this better than me Owen but you know it's like no sales no sales no sales and then it's like who sold out they're all gone you have to be patient and you do I mean especially with carpet python because it's like waiting for the color waiting for the color there it is everything's gone it's like you gotta you gotta wait it's like I had the the clutches the red tigers last year I was waiting for everybody and all of a sudden boom everybody got their color everybody left it's like that's how it goes most of the time so it's it don't be too discouraged that's why honest to God I don't see it's almost like last year's babies start selling like like hot takes when this year's babies arrive so I'll get the clutch for I'll get the first couple clutches from 16 and then I only have eight babies left over from 15 and once that starts happening it's like the babies from 15 start going and then they'll be gone quickly the point I'm down to one or two and then maybe one or two will hang out for way longer than I ever expected and then they'll eventually leave like I don't have any I have two left over from 2014 and I have two left over from 2013 and then I have eight left over from 2015 so it's like I can probably fill up a table display and you know there's gonna be one moment where somebody's gonna come by and be like you know I wanted to get a pair and they're like boom now the 14s are gone it's like how it goes you get to wait till everybody kind of grows up and no one's really gonna look at the 16s when they hatch unless they were really in the market for what I hatched out in 2016 you know other than that yeah like the brighter ones the bigger ones yeah the new people that are coming in to carpet pythons which seems like I said I think it's more and more people are coming in but those people are not going to buy freshly hatched carpet because they don't look good you know so like they're gonna be looking for I want the bright jungle or the jungle jag or whatever or established yeah color blah blah blah the people that you're gonna sell that animal to that just hatched out his other carpet python people you know that no that okay I want I've been watching Owen I follow this stuff I know his animal echo and I want an offspring from that animal so put me on a list for echo you know and it's like okay well these hatched out and you know then you start to have an eye for you know this one's gonna be a looker this one's gonna be okay you know a perfect example is I have a bunch of people ask me for bread line and I gotta have any bread line left but I'm none people are waiting so if sometime this summer I have the clutch of red light fresh babies people are gonna buy those because they've been waiting for bread light is over the over my yearling coastal's because it's not what they want right so but I guarantee you there will still be some bread like last last clutch ahead I was so male heavy was ridiculous so a lot of my bread lie sold as pairs you know male female male female that all of a sudden I had like eight males and I'm like shit so you had to that's when the spigot was a little bit slower because I had to wait for somebody who wanted a bread light male a lot of people were just getting into bread lie they bought 1.1 so that's how it goes to and I was willing to sit on it to the point where now I've gotten so many people who want bread lie I wish I still had more so again almost wish I had up the price a little bit more maybe to hold on to a few so you know it's just it's one of those things where you're gonna kind of roll with it yep so that's that's kind of my thoughts on that thought it was a good topic that was brought up and you know it seems like over on that Facebook group there's a lot of good topics that come up speaking away yes the the NP is back up the forum my god so for a long time that for a long time you would go on there and you couldn't like like when you try to like click on to the next page it wouldn't let you do it and you wouldn't like you'd have to screw there was like some kind of error message that took up most the screen and you get was just messed up but anyway I don't know if people have been there probably not not but it's up and back and going so yeah check it out I use it a lot for just research of stuff find that back history of stuff interesting I'd like to get more that like the guys the GT keep your radio they did the they had Tim Mars on and they were talking about the Mr. Blue and the Blue Line Condros and all that back history I you know nerd out about that but so yeah that's that I think I think that's I think that's all I have for now let's see I just want to make sure we hit on everything we were supposed to as my paper comes up here it's taken forever you and I got to meet up at some point because we got start getting the plans ready for Northeast Carpetfest so yeah yeah this is true this is very true well speaking of Carpetfest April 30th is the southern Carpetfest April 30th so Owen clear your calendar where the hell you think I'm going April 30th you don't have a choice my friend why go paying for me to go out there no we'll start a go and I do have a choice then I do have a choice sir oh yeah I guess that so all right I think we hit on everything yeah it's going through real quick we'll leave that rest of that stuff over yes I guess unless you got anything else we'll wrap it up I got nothing so okay yeah so next week's show could be possibly Carpet python show a breeder or it could be a white lip python show and you know how things are gonna go but I'm gonna have to call in the following week which I think is like February what 15th maybe yeah because we're gonna do the first ever carpondro show but I'm gonna be in Florida so you're gonna be made you're gonna be not calling but don't make me do it yeah so that's kind of what we have lined up all right yeah yeah so you and I will talk about this later I will figure that out yeah no kidding all right so that's what we got lined up for the for the month some cool things and then I'm pretty excited about this one right at the beginning of March we got Darren Whittaker coming on to talk about silver pepper inlands you gonna send us any hmm I don't think so maybe a picture yeah we'll talk about some of the of the cool things that he has going on from the projects that he did and you know we'll be working on next year one of the things that I've I wanted to bring up on this show but I it definitely will apply to him is if you're doing a cross species or subspecies pairing you know like AKA breeding a bread lie to say a jag or a diamond to a you know an albino or something like that whether winter breeders and southern you know southern breeders winter breeders and summer breeder breeders spring breeders in it what is the what is the best way to get them to go you know because they're breeding at different times so like is that an issue that you know I'm just curious about that so I'll talk about things like yeah yeah you know I mean like you know you'd like how do you get the male brettles to want to breed a jag that breed store in the winter and the brettles don't breathe till you bring it out I mean obviously it can be done because it's been done but just curious on strategies to get that done right who has to be prepared the female or the male right right so it should be interesting definitely the history on the silver pepper inland is probably my favorite carpet python morph so should be should be good stuff let's see what else we got far shot outs make sure you go and vote for us for the reptile radio show of the year I guess we're basically a podcast of the year but uh yeah girl podcast I put the the links all over the place so find it and go vote for us daily help us win to us a win for us is a win for the carpet python community and all the world so show us some love let's see what else for morality python radio if you'd like us you want to check out what we have going on or you want to learn more about maralia or carpet pythons and look no further than morality python radio.com and then I'll sort of shoot you out into the world of really and give you links and we're working on the different morphs and stuff different pages to show you the history and you know different examples we're still looking for pictures of jags at this point so if you have them send them over and you can send all that stuff to info at morality python radio if you have a show topic you'd like to hear you question that you want us to hit on because we like to do this you know where it's just me and Owen every month or so you know that way we can all those things in so be sure to do that info at morality python radio.com you can check us out on Facebook on our Facebook page Mario Python radio give us a like you can follow us on Twitter at morality python iTunes is where you can subscribe to us subscribe to the show or whatever podcast app you happen to use and I think the one thing that I've noticed as of late is that the show's getting spread around so that's cool and keep doing that keep it up thanks if you are helping us out spread the word I think it's important to get the show in front of people that don't know about it so that they can learn about carpet pythons and Maralia and all that stuff so thanks for that and as far as myself eB maralia you can check out my website at eB maralia.com and I put all of our info I'm gonna start doing that from now on it's all in the show description so all those links are in the description just makes it easier and you can go check out my website see what I have going on you want to see what's going on as far as breeding and stuff you can check out the breeding diary page to see what's what now that what are we what six weeks away from spring something we'll open up pretty soon so that will be cool and I'll be gonna be having some animals available for sure right around that time so if you're looking for something in particular give me a shout out maybe I have it if I don't I will put you in touch with the person that does so don't be shy and let's see I also have a Facebook page eB maralia I'm on Instagram and Twitter any of those things you can follow me and see what we have going on that's all I got cool what I got is you go to rogue-reptiles.com you also go to Facebook.com or rogue reptiles on Facebook.com give us a like check everything out there on the website you'll see a full breakdown of what we have for sale as well as any shows we will be attending or vending currently the closest one I have is the Hamburg reptile show on February 27 if you see anything you like on the website it can definitely be delivered to Hamburg for your charge if you're going to be at Hamburg please stop by the table and check us out we're usually in the back aisle behind Matt's oldest table he's a cool guy you can check out his stuff too so that's all I got there is also the breeding diary on rogue reptiles.com has the latest what we've been seeing from our pairs and what we're hoping to see from some of our pairs and if we have to mix things up we'll put it up there. Anyways that's all I got so what I will say is good night everyone and thank you for listening and we'll catch everybody back here for some more we're really a Python radio. Goodnight. Hey Chad Brown here you may remember me at the linebacker in NFL where the reptile breeder and the owner of Projekt. I've been herping since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist which is why my partner Robin and Marklyn and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. 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