Morelia Python Radio

Carpet python roundtable

In this episode we are joined by Terrell Zeigler, Riley Jimison and Steven Katz to discuss some of the topics that have come up on the Carpet Python Discussion facebook group. We will hit on a variety of topics having to do with the keeping and breeding of the carpet python complex. https://www.facebook.com/groups/carpetpythondiscussion/ www.moreliapythonradio.co

Duration:: 2h 59m
Broadcast on:: 20 Jan 2016
Audio Format:: other

Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL. Where's a reptile breeder and their owner of Pro Jock? I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markham and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing you the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news. Go to the link so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. You're a buyer or breeder, you've got to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling definition full of features that help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, search by sex, weight, more, or other keywords and use our Buy Now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.thereptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum med. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buy on your selling and ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. Ship your reptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animals successfully. Use ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. The materials needed to ship your reptiles successfully, live customer support and our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship an animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Moralia Python radio. Tonight we were supposed to be doing a venomous episode, but a good friend got his under the weather and he won't be able to make it to the show. If you're not, we have rescheduled in the future with Scott and we will definitely make sure that we hit on that venomous stuff. I think that would be a cool show for sure, something outside of the box different from the norm, but tonight we're talking carpet pythons. My personal favorite. I don't know how I want to feel. Well, no, I'm indifferent. I mean, I don't know why I'm part of this show. But it's weird because it's like we got the cancellation and I'm like, "All right, so it's going to be me and Eric." And it's almost like you heard my thoughts because you were like, "No," and this is what happens when it's your day off, because then you went sideways. And you had, within an hour, you had the show that we're going to do planned ready, you had people signing on, and I'm working. So every so often I'm checking back to see what you did. I'm like, "Well, holy crap, never mind." It's like, "Okay, I guess, all right, so we're doing this now." So it was like, so you were off to the races today. I don't know how much coffee your wife let you have this morning, but Jesus Christ. Yeah, yeah, you know, when you get one day off a week, which is what I get, then it's kind of like you have to do everything within that day, so it's not on top, you know? Everything's on top. Yeah, so I was kind of like, "Well, me and I, when you're going to talk," but you know what? I have a goal. After talking with Keith, you know, last week, and I felt that was a really, really good show, and I want to make sure that we keep delivering content like that, you know? And not just like, every once in a while, it's good to just have the two of us bantering right? Right, right. You and I are the B-grade. We don't know who's going to talk. So if we can delay, you and me actually having a conversation. Well, we still share. Yeah, oh, yeah. We say, oh, yeah. So, yeah, so I've been wanting to do this anyway, which is a show that I had in the back of my mind because the Riley Jimson and Terrell Ziegler, they put together this site, which I thought was pretty cool. I mean, there's a million Facebook groups out there. Some, you know, just about carpets, some about Morellia, some about Morellia, one of the health key, different class of five. Some about Python, some of the world, some about with reptiles, I either throw a rock, you hit 12. But this one in particular stood out to me because it was called "Carpet Python Discussion Board." And it kind of reminded me of like it had like the old empty day type of feel of discussion about, you know, how people keep and breed and all that kind of stuff, you know. And not that they don't do that on the pick of the week, but I don't know. I guess because I wasn't running it, so I could just say. Oh, yeah, we don't know what they have. Look at it. It's like you and I have the conversation wherever it wants to go. Like you and I have been to Snickshows where I'm not vending and it's like, I don't know what to do. Like you see me wander around not knowing what to do with myself because we're there for a certain amount of time, but I don't have a table to check in with. So it's like, all right, now it's much more relaxing and much more enjoyable when you don't have to do anything. So, yes, yes. So much, so true. So I decided to get those two guys because they're the guys that started it. And Steven Katz, who we had on the show before, he participates in that group an awful lot. And I thought it would be cool to have those guys. Yes, Sean was supposed to. I don't know if he's coming or not. That's still up in the air. He was a last minute one. I always like talking with him, you know, carpets and all the crazy stuff he has going on over there. So we'll wait and see if he's going to chime in. But I've noticed that a lot of newbies are coming into carpets. And, you know, I think that it was funny. I was reading the one post and they said they punched in carpet pythons on Facebook and only one group came up. So, you know, it made me start to think about how fragmented, you know, Facebook has made the reptile community. And if you're not exposed to this and, you know, you might not even know that the podcast exists. And, you know, we do kind of shoot ourselves in the foot by going by the Latin. So, I mean, we have to wait for people to be learning enough to know the Latin to type that in to find everything. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, definitely, you know, that's, I'll forever be beaten that one. But, you know, it is what it is. I think something's wrong with the site too. I don't know. Like, if you go on there, you can't click through the pages and you can't, you know, I was trying to research. And I had the one day. It's just all like some kind of funky HTML text. And you can't really, it's, I don't know, I don't know if down or what, but. I don't know either. So, great. But we have, like I said, we're going to have those guys come on. And we're going to be doing a roundtable discussion about basically our, we have some husbandry topics, some breeding topics, some morph topics, and some community and the hobby side of things type topics that we're going to hit on. Hopefully, we can get through them all. Well, we shall see. These guys are new to the roundtable. So, I thought that they would give a different perspective. They're sort of like newer guys, I guess you would say, whereas most of our roundtables in the past have been guys that have been doing this even longer than we've been doing this. So, true. You know, so I thought that. I thought that the year to obscure species too. I mean, we had the conjure roundtable, the bollens roundtable. I mean, we, we've had a carpet roundtable before, right? Oh, yeah, we've had a few of them. Yeah. I think there's a number more. So many episodes, I don't remember. I don't know what we did last week. Yeah. So, um, yeah, I, uh, I would have caught, um, you know, as far as what's going on with me. Actually, first, let's sit on this. Did you see the old Kelly? Yeah. Yeah. Gavin, Gavin Bedford, uh, he was able to, uh, get another clutch of Owen Pelly pythons, which is, uh, which is a huge accomplishment. Uh, so congrats. And aren't babies, aren't they gorgeous? Like, the, the way their heads look. It just, it looks, the snap looks so much longer than it should be. It just, it makes it look so much cooler. So I want some in closing, I would like some. So they're, they're, they're such cool looking animals. And it is such a major success. And people kind of don't, a lot of people are like, oh, that's cool. But they don't realize that this is like the beginnings of establishing a captive population in Australia, which is the beginnings of establishing a captive population that lived near that pit. And then establishing the captive population that live on the other side of that pit, which is in Europe. So it's slowly going to start creeping. I mean, this is how rough scale pythons started. This is how a lot of animals started by one or two pairs that were breeding successfully and that eventually started coming. Now, how the Owen Pelly pythons will leave Australia? I don't know. They may go through the course of zoos. They may go through this course of private collection. They can get put in a bag and driven over to New Guinea on a boat. Well, you know, there are, there's many different ways, but it does mean that now they have been successful captive breedings that it's only a matter of time. Now, that matter of time may be a couple of years, but eventually we will see Owen Pelly pythons for sale in the United States. It may take. I think so. It may take a very, very long time. Do you think King Hornye will be here before the Owen Pelly's? No one, no one wants King Hornye. No one wants King Hornye. No one, some, some people, there's no one. I know that right now there are people screaming at the radios that they want King Hornye. Think about it before you do it. Do you really want that animal? Oh, it's so cute when it's a, you know, you know, baby. It's not what, it's not what we're talking about. Didn't we have, it wasn't like our first thing we can't get off our minds is how horrible scrubs are. And you want to take one of the guys that were re-picked? What the hell doesn't matter with you? No, no, nobody wants King Hornye. Forget that. But you can't have a, you can't have a complete Australian python collection unless you have King Hornye in there, you know. Yeah, well, I did. And that would be the one that kills you. So, yeah. Yeah, but now I imagine King Hornye will eventually get over here as well. I don't think there's that much of a push for them. Because, you know, I mean, aren't there already King Hornye in captive populations in Europe? Yes. Yeah, I wonder how difficult they are to breathe. They've got to be as difficult as normal scrubs, if not more. Yeah, but remember, the Southerns are typically the ones that are the easier of the scrub complex to breathe. So, true. I've never seen a King Hornye versus a Southern. Like, you know, I had similar. Yeah, I know they're similar, but I've had Southerns and they've actually been kind of the more gentle. But then I've had like Jayas and other ones. It seems like the Jayas were more psychotic. So, I don't know where the King Hornye kind of land in temperament-wise. Well, from what I understand, I'm not 100%. I'm not 100% when it comes to what actually was going on. But I kind of remember, what's his name? Ganyons Tush talking about the fact that he believes that there might be two species of scrubs up in the Cape York Peninsula. Because you have the ones that are Moralia King Hornye, and then you have Moralia Amethystina. Which would make sense, because that would be similar to what you're seeing in the Southern scrub, you know, like what we call "morarchy". The whole scrub complex needs to be reworked, but now you got to find someone who's dedicated enough to redo it. I mean, you know, and that's the hard part. So, you know, there's like, and there's all the talks of a ruse and things like that. Either way, I've never had interactions with King Hornye. I never really talked to people who've had King Hornye, except I think Casper had one or two, right? I'm not sure. I don't either. Anyway, it was like, I thought he did. But either way, it's like one of those I've never experienced how maybe high strung they are, or flighty, because that could definitely hinder the breathing and stuff of that. I'm not sure. But either way, if they're already in Europe, if somebody really wanted to, I bet you could get a pair of King Hornye shift over here. But they're probably going to be a pair of adults that have been through several hands. It reminds me of what the huge ones that Dave means has. Biox? Yes. Right? Yeah, he had those huge Biox that were brought over as babies, went to Tracy Barker, went to a few other people, ended up with him, and a couple of people along the way got locks, but they never got eggs, never got babies. So it's one of those things where it's like, well, now the King Hornye, they're probably over in Europe. There could be some that are young enough or were kept correctly enough that could be breathing. But most of them, I assume, would probably be like that. Biox, they've changed hands so much that it's almost impossible to get them to breathe now. So, but either way, you could still probably, if you really wanted King Hornye, you can get King Hornye. We're talking Owen Pelley-Pythons, where there's only one guy that had one. Yeah. So, I would think you would say, now, will, will Imbracata be over here before Owen Pelley? I don't know. That's a tough one, because from what I understand, they're already here in the States. Oh, gasps! I just don't know who it is that has them. Yeah, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps, gasps. I don't know who it is, so. I have them all. I've just been keeping it from you. That's the whispers and things that I hear about that they're already in the States, but I don't have that back up by any facts. Yes, but those are the whispers that you also heard was like, I heard everybody under the sun bought themselves a pair of panthers. When that all happened, so, you know, how can the whispers be true? Can the whispers be not true? So, you know, I heard that Paul had all of them. I heard Nick had all of them. I heard you had a pair that you were hiding. I mean, like. And that was the funniest thing is when someone came up and said, you know, Eric, I'm like, really? Yeah, because I wouldn't tell you. I would tell. Tell that guy before you speak and that and that. Yeah. Yeah, I believe that. So, you know, it's one of those things where the chatters chatter, but I would believe that there might be an Ibercata, a pair of Ibercata or something like that floating around somewhere in the US. So. Yeah, I mean, to me, that's that's my pinnacle Australian species. That's fine. Oh, good. That would be good. Those are silver pepper inland. If I'm ever lucky enough to be able to work with them. The other one was like, people are like, you know, here, silver, pepper, didn't let me message Sarah to see what's going on. Like, no, don't have all of them. There are none that are going. No, no, no, Australia even had. Unless he lost that. Oh, my God. Oh, and this whole tub's that thing. Well, shit. I mean, no, it. There's that those aren't. Well, those eventually get here. I hope so. But that is a different thing because where Owen Pelly's could eventually come over because they are a really cool, rare animal that could kind of make its way through a zoo route like the rough scales did a little bit. Who knows. And maybe an interesting of a silver pepper is that it's a morph of an inland. So, zoos never put morphs on display normally. No. So, can't really do that. You know, the crazy thing is that maybe in five to ten years, that might be legal to export from Australia. You never know. I think, I think that they, I think Australia is missing out on a huge amount of money that they could be getting. They really are. They could put it in to come. Crunch the numbers. Like, you know, that it has to be from a licensed breeder in Australia shipped to a licensed breeder in the US. I mean, do that math and tell me what the hell would show up on your doorstep tomorrow. I mean, yeah, they would, they would, they could take that money. And, you know, I mean, they could tax it and put it back into conservation. And I mean, just think about all that, you know, and whoo. I don't like it. That would, that would so get a box, like a box of skinks. Like you would have everything in here. Like we're talking a single batch. Oh, God, it would be, it would be a rainbow of skinks. And yeah, box. So, oh, yeah. I mean, that would be, that would be so cool. I mean, there's also different other types of lizards, geckos, blah, blah, blah, blah that everyone works with. I mean, I know monitor guys that would like shoot themselves if now lace monitors became prevalent and able to be imported. So, that would be awesome. Yeah, it would be, it would be awesome. Sure. So, if you're going to show your work on that. So, before we get the, get the guys on and we get going here, I wanted to tell you before, before I came on to the show. Yes. I had to go to the vet. Yes. So, I wanted to hit on my experience with this. So, you know, share the, the good and the bad and the ugly and all that. So, I think what had happened with me is, you know, so a little bit of back history real quick. Two years ago, Poison Ivy had a clutch. Well, it's two years now. Poison Ivy had a clutch and when she laid, all the way up to when she laid, she was fine. She went on maternal incubation. I had her on for a week. Everything was fine. She came off the eggs. I noticed that she was kind of wheezing a little bit. Took her, took the eggs immediately from her, put her in, put them in the incubator, raised her temps up, you know, and it knocked it right out. No problems, no issues. She's back. Everything is good. You know, last year, she didn't breed, put her down in the same room, cold, no problems, no issues. This year, I started to drop the tents, and that was kind of funny with, especially with the IJs, because they're kind of the finiciest of the carpets I find. I think it's just they're, you know, they're not, I guess they're not really, I don't know this to be true, actually, because after talking to Daniel, they may experience temperatures that are on the low side. But it seems that, you know, carpets that are further south than Australia on the east coast and whatnot are experiencing colder temperatures. That means that they're a little more resilient when it comes to that. So anyway, dropping the room down. So my room goes down 70 degrees at night for breeding season. Basically, I leave a hotspot on, but the hotspots, maybe, I don't know, maybe it's like 75, 78, something like that, just in case, you know, they want to be a little bit warmer or whatever. And, you know, that's that. Morning time, I leave heat the way, you know, the same way it is, all year round, 80 to 82 ambient, 85 to 87, maybe hotspot, dependent on, you know, if it's an IJ or if it's, you know, a diamond python or a diamond, I should say, because my diamonds are in the room. Anyway, so I put them together. So I had this tiger IJ that came from Mike Curtin. And this thing is huge. Oh God, it's humongous, you know. Big, he's big for some coastal. I mean, like he is a big, big guy. And it's not even like he's really like long. He's just girthy, girthy as hell. Anyway, I put him in there with our locks. Everything is good. Everything's going good. But what I did notice this and I did react, but I didn't react fast enough. I did notice that he would be on the hotspot. Now typically when I have carpets and they're mating, I find that they're laying on the hotspot together. You know, at night, they're not all coiled together off of it. But regardless of wherever they are, they're coiled together. So I noticed that their temperatures when you're doing that, you know, when you shoot them are a little bit, you know, higher than what the ambient temperature in the room is. Anyway, he's on the hotspot. She's not. So I'm thinking that when the temperatures warmed up during the day, he would probably hog that hotspot. And she was not able to get her, you know. She was uncomfortable laying all around him. I mean, it's more of a comfort thing. If they're cool with each other, they will lay all over each other. But if he's forcing her out or if she doesn't feel comfortable taking the hotspot, like I have a male right now that's hogging the hotspot from one of my girls. And he's leaving that cage tonight because I don't mind him going to put over this. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And he's such a big, even much bigger male than her. So, yeah, that's why it may also be just a sheer, because that male, it was in with a female that was much bigger than him. And they were totally fine sharing everything. So it might just be a size and being comfortable around each other thing. They're comfortable enough to mate, but they can't total what's up with this craft. Yeah. So I'm thinking that this led to her being stressed, you know, whether or not it's because he intimidated her out of there. Maybe her size intimidated her altogether, you know, but they did lock several times. So, you know, I don't know. Anyway, kind of hesitated with it, hesitated longer than I should have. Last week, I go and, you know, I'm going through and I'm feeling the females to feel, you know, what's going on, if anything's building or whatever. And I noticed that she's kind of wheezing. Now, you know, as well as I do, like when carpets are going to shed, they kind of get this, you know, breathing right away, like, especially when you get on water. Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like you look at it and you're like, all right, if tomorrow you're blue, I will not freak out. Yeah. If you're not blue tomorrow, and you know what, El Bino's, it goes, scares the crap out of me every time he's going to shed, because he gets all lumpy and he gets all wheezing. And he gets all wheezing. And I'm like, what's wrong with you? And then you don't text the blue and he just looks weird. You're like, oh, my God. And then he sheds it. I'm like, all right. Well, so yeah, it's annoying. Yeah. So anyway, yep. I pull her out and I'm kind of looking at her, whatever. And, you know, you're going through and you're kind of listening and I'm kind of holding her. And I'm like, all right, maybe it's not that. Maybe it's not that. Maybe it's not that. And all of a sudden I see the loss. You feel it. They're the throat. I see the bubbles in the nose. I'm like, oh, damn it. You know, all of that. And you feel the gurgle feel the gurgle halfway down with their, where their lung is, like you can feel it rumble in there. Yeah. So immediately I pull him out. I check him out too. He's fine. That's convenient. Why? Yeah, sure. So I separate, I separate the two, put him in his cage, her and her cage. Because typically that's what I do. And sometimes if you catch it early enough, you're able to sort of do it. And after speaking to the vet tonight, that's kind of the route that they kind of take, you know, before they go and give medicine and whatnot. And it's not too bad. They'll just tell you to, you know, change, change what's going on. So anyway, I go, I take her out, raise the temperatures. I can't get a vet appointment for like four days. Yeah. Because the vet you use is Dr. Adam Dennish. Yeah. And Elkins Park. And he goes to the reptile vet and various other animals. He pings back and forth between two vet offices as well as he's the lead vet at the Elmwood Park Zoo in Northtown. But he goes like between three stages, trying to peg that man down as hard as any of it. Yeah. Also, he told me tonight when I went there that he just came back from a trip to Brazil. I think he was working down in Brazil. So that was pretty cool. Anyway. Yeah. So I get to the vet, I'll put temperatures. And it seems that she's not, she's not gotten any worse, but she's still, you know, I took her out earlier today. See if she still had it. She still kind of had that, you know, sort of symptoms. So I take her to the vet. She has a slight R.I. Nothing that he's doing. Most of the, like, if you look in, when we looked inside her throat, it was wet towards the back. But there wasn't like a lot of mucus. There wasn't bubbles coming out of the mouth or the trachea or anything like that. You know, so everything was good there. Slight bubbles coming out her nose, but nothing too crazy. It wasn't like it's constant. Right. Really active, which was a good thing. Her eyes looked good. Everything was good. Gave her a shot. Basically, I have to give her a treatment for the next week or so. And he said that she should go. Good to go. A couple of weird things. One thing that he noticed right away that I thought was really cool was the fact that her two nostrils are completely different sizes. And I know the picture that I put on. The picture that I put out, you can't really tell. I'm going to have to take a better picture of it. But her one nostril is super small. Now, whether or not that, you know, would lead her to, you know, if she has a breathing issue, then it becomes worse automatically. Maybe. But it's just weird that, you know, and it was weird because the inside of her mouth is black. It never really looked like in the inside. I mean, I've looked at my other carpets and they're not black, which was weird. Yeah. It's like a purple-y black, which is what she's supposed to look like. Anyway, long story short, she's good. I definitely don't think I'm going to get a clutch out of her this year. He kind of felt some follicles in her. But, you know, I'd rather have her than her leg. Then the babies. Yeah. Well, she's kind of out of the mix for the year, which is fine because next year she, you know, she'll be going to one of her offspring to see, you know, if anything is unlocked. Yeah, and maybe next year you can, like, maybe next year you'll only take her down to a certain temp to try to get it going. And there are ways you can kind of, you know, adjust what you do to try to be better for that. Yeah. It's a whole learning experience. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. But, yeah. So, good times there. No, no. Not good times. Well, no trip to the vet is good. Yeah. Oh, yeah. True. So, um, let's say, I think we're just waiting for Steve, but, um, I guess we can get these two guys on here and let's get going. We've got Terrell. We've got Riley. Um, what's up, guys? Oh, somebody's bouncing right up. So? Wind tunnel. Oh, God. Hey. Hey. What's up, guys? We're just waiting for Steve to call in. You know, we'll chat with you guys until Steve's ready to go. Okay. Cool. Since Terrell, you've been on the show before. Um, you have done your introductions and whatnot. So, we'll hear from, uh, from Riley. And, uh, we'll not keep you. Yeah. Forget you. Sounds good. Yeah. So, I guess Riley, why don't you tell us, you know, a little bit about you. Um, what got you into carbon pythons and what your focus is with carbon pythons. Right on. Um, yeah. I started kind of leaning towards them a couple of years ago. Um, I've always kept reptile ever since I was a kid. And then I started working at Santa Barbara Zoo almost four years ago. And, uh, I'm still there working as a reptile keeper. And then, you know, in my spare time, I wanted to do more stuff on the side. And, uh, started working for a guy who had just a collection of carpets and he got me hooked from day one. Um, after that, started going to shows and helping out with a local pet store and seeing a lot that was out there. And I was already keeping rainbow boas and I found cribos pretty early. But then carpet pythons really just blew me away with their, uh, their size variation. And I kind of like the challenge with, uh, wearing the behavior. So they, they drew me in pretty much right away. So, uh, I haven't looked back ever since. Um, I started just kind of getting a few things with everything and then seeing how everybody was focusing on certain directions. And a few people screwed my head on for me and kind of helped me, uh, get that picture and kind of tying things up and prioritizing. So I'm kind of leaning towards most things with stripes, but, um, uh, stripe jungles, lots of tiger stuff. Um, Tony and I have, you know, brainstorm kind of fantasy-like about, uh, you know, seeing what some stripes thrown in grain. I grew, I mean, who knows just, I just want to see stripes. Yeah. You can't go on with stripes. You really like this guy. It's like, oh, of course you can't. So you know, you've been trying to make zebras striped ever since they popped up. Difficult. Anyway, um, that's cool. I can never go wrong with stripes. So did we get Steve on here or no? No. No, I think he's not here. You want to, all right. Anyway. Uh, no, I'm with you with the stripes, man, because I'll tell you what, if you could get a zebra and you could take like the, the pattern that's kind of, you know, all crazy and whacked out and whatnot, to make it pinstripe, tell me how cool that would be. I mean, come on. That would be wicked. Yep. All Eric wants is a pinstripe ball python that's black and yellow. That's all he wants. Yeah. That's the carpet python. Yeah. That's the carpet python. Yeah. That is a Morelia instead. Yeah. Yeah. So much more interesting. So no offense to ball python keepers. I had my phase, but carpets just, that's where it's at for me. There you go. Yeah. Cool. So real quick, yeah, I'm going to ask this question real quick before we move on. And then we'll just start going and, you know, Steve will catch in when he catches him. But my question is, what led you to start the discussion boards with, with Tyrell? What was, what was thinking behind it? What, what was the goal? Um, you know, I kept, I kept finding all these different groups online. And I was trying to find forums that were still going. And, you know, I noticed some were going somewhere. And I was kind of seeing a lot of drawn to Facebook as much as I hate to admit it. Um, and it was just kind of scattered. And there were just all these groups that were like classifieds. And then people were posing questions out of place or people posting things that just didn't fit the team in the group. And I don't know. I just, I knew there were other avenues out there for places for just putting up random photos or info. But I wanted something that, you know, people would find to be like, okay, this is strictly, or maybe not strictly, but definitely geared towards getting out information, asking questions and sort of thing. And so much, you know, crap that I see on, on the internet when it's misguided. It's just very, people are being attacked. And I just, you know, they just seem like kind of a no-brainer. Give somebody a spot to ask questions post up info and, you know, feel like they can do it without being, ripped on by others. And I just felt like that was one thing that wasn't quite out there. And I would kind of been working on something a little bit earlier and we bounced the idea off. And I think four or five hours later, I kind of threw up the bare bones of it and he jumped on, cleaned it up. And that was it. So. Okay. Cool. Yeah. I really like the, the idea, you know, what you guys are shooting for. And, oh, wait. Hold on one second. All right. You go deal with that. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, I got you. So that is definitely very cool. Cause I mean, like people do ask questions on the pick of the week, but a lot of times it's the same people answering or it's not, it gets, it gets buried immediately by somebody who's taken. A picture of their zebra facing every known direction. In every form of light ever. So it's very cool that like you guys have something now where you can post a question and it's there. And, you know, it's, it's not for showing off. There's someplace else for that. This is for questions and discussion. So it's very cool. You kind of have that. And it does kind of harken back to the old days of. Moralia Python, so more power to you guys. That's definitely very cool. Hopefully you don't have as much problems as we've had with the pick of the week with certain people, you know, breaking rules. Like that. So far it's been good. Yeah, so there have been days where I've been like screaming at Eric because of the crap we had to deal with. But anyway, hopefully you don't have to deal with any of that. So far, the only thing we got was that the ladies in the day trying to sell carpet samples from China. But, you know, it's absolutely weird. We're off to a good start. That was so weird. It was like zebra pattern carpets were like, hooray. So, you know, like close. So I kind of, I looked at the comments and I realized before being frustrated. This is too funny. So I just kind of let it get up. I let it go. It was, there are some good ones there and then after it went, of course, I was like, all right, enough of this. Yeah, sometimes the people will throw themselves into the shark tank and you got to just let it go. Just, you did this to yourself. Have fun. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Okay. Go ahead. We're ready. Is Steve here? He is. All right. Steve, can you hear me? He can't hear you, but he's not. All right. I got you. I have to go through it. All right. So, Torel, you're first. You there with the thing. You're first with caging and that is, what do you use for caging for your carpets on? What do you prefer and why? Currently, I use Rubbermaid Tubs for all of them, 28 quart, 32 quart, for all of the males. I don't keep my males really big anymore. Like, that was a goal when I first started, but now I usually keep them under 5 feet, about 1,000 feet. Yeah. Torel and I have the same goals. Yeah. I mean, all the males I have, they all breed as is, so I just kind of leave them that way. And I find it more active, just smaller than that, so. Okay. The females I now have, they're all in 72 quart tubs right now, which are going into one of the Boa master mixes, a rack for that. Yeah. I used to have the females in animal plastics 4x2s, but I moved my biggest female to one of these tubs and she actually seems to be doing better than that. She had fine, eats fine, so. It's just kind of what I've gravitated to. I like it because it's convenient for me to claim all of them. I just run through. It takes me down from 2 1/2 hours to about 45 minutes to an hour to get through all 40-something snakes now. Very cool. And what is the most important part of your setups and why? The convenience factor really. I'm usually here. I leave for work at 545 in the morning. I don't get home until after 6. And then I'm usually working on something when I get home. So the ability to just go through spot clean or change everything completely, wipe it down. That's now been what I'm more concerned with as time prohibits. It used to be more about the aesthetics. But now actually since I've moved all my animals into tubs, I've had no other animals get sick. So that's also been a pretty big factor in me changing to that. Plus, yeah. That is a pretty big plus. Very cool. All right. So next on my list is Riley. Same question, what do you use for caging for your carpets and what do you prefer and why? Right now, I have everybody pretty much exclusively in tubs and racks ranging from 6-court, 1532s, 41s and up. Just kind of fit in everybody as they can. I've got a few people or a few snakes, not people. I'm not crazy. I swear. It's all right. Yeah. You're almost crazy. People are good. Yeah. Yeah. No, these guys I treat better than most people. But yeah, I'm actually in the process of staging some adults up into some more forefoot animal plastics right now. I don't want to go too big and I am limited in space, but I'm slowly taking over the storage room area of my house. It's kind of just a half a garage, so that'll help making room for that. So for now, everybody is in tubs, but I'll probably have a system where my breeding adults are going to be in a larger glass for styling closures. Very cool. Kind of like what I'm doing now with my guys. So what is the most important part of your setup and why? For me, I don't ever skimp on some of the temperature and heat related things. So thermostats, heat supplies, temp guns, secondary probes, I spare no expense on those. Those to me are kind of a lifeline for my animals. And so I'm not going to get something cheap that I don't trust. That being said, there are great products that are $500 or anything like that. But I'm on top of my equipment maintaining it and keeping sure everything is working because I can't afford any mistakes. And I certainly don't want it to happen regardless. So yeah, probes, temp guns, thermostats, good working equipment. Number one can be. Nice. Very cool. And I like the idea of spare no expense on the heat and the computer systems because too many people I know kept high dollar animals and plastic tubs on the floor. Anyway, so let's move on Steve. Hey guys, I'm like, it's all good. We get laid all the time too. So sometimes we have all episodes where we don't show up anyway. Same question, what cages do you use for your carpet pythons and what do you prefer and why? Right now I have different cages for everything, of course. My babies I have in a hatchling melamine rack, the melamine wood that I really like. I have adults and sub-adults in racks as well. And then I have my bigger guys like my bread lie in four foot melamine enclosures between all of them. I really like the melamine wood, whether it be a rack or a cage. It just holds the heat really well. So in summer you could get away with setting, I have a thermostat and timer, so you could get away with keeping the heat on for a less amount of time. As opposed to my, I have a vision snake rack that there's a whole bunch of annihilation if you guys are familiar with vision racks. And during the winter it gets very cold and this year here in Southern California it got really cold pretty fast. And I saw that some snakes were looking not so hot, so I had to adjust and move stuff around. And yeah I don't like, I don't like vision racks anymore, I like the melamine wood. Okay, so are your cages all custom built or did you, or is it one of the caging companies like BoaMaster that works with melamine? They're all custom built, they were built by some Mike at Amazon reptile in Montclair, California. So he owns a shop he's been there for a while and he does really good work, so I had the chance to get cages done by him. Cool. Okay, and what do you think is the most important part of your setups? Most important part, it's a tough one. I mean heat would be easiest to say right, they need heat, but in terms of efficiency, I guess I like racks a lot. It's just so easy to open them up and get into them and clean them. I don't know. Sorry guys. You don't find it for this one. That's a good answer, heat is important and so is getting all that stuff going, so you're perfectly good. So definitely very cool. So next on my list is Eric. Yeah, well, I know we just didn't like vision racks and I can understand why I put in my room. They work well. Nothing but vision racks. I basically use them for pretty much everything at the moment. I keep my adults smaller, so I don't really have any issues with that. But I have been thinking as of late that I would move some to caging. I remember when we were at Tinley there was a place called Serpentine Obsessions. I really liked the way their cages looked. Yeah. They had a stack and they had these LED lights in it and I don't know, it just looked sharp. The thing that kind of always steered me away from AP is just the wait time. They're beautiful cakes and I think currently just the fact that space is an issue. It just comes down to be more efficient in a rack. Do you remember right across from us in Tinley was like nature's spirit or something like that? Yeah. Those white cages, the white PVC cages that he had, he built them. So it looked like a rack, but they were four individual cages and the Herpsat 4 was like embedded inside the plastic in between. They're gorgeous cages, gorgeous cages. And I would love some stuff like that for my juvie carpets, like a rack that's really just a bunch of little cages. But, you know, that would be something I would look into if I wanted to do all that. Because apparently I saw Evan at the last hamburger and he has a whole room of cages that were made by those guys for his bowlins and everything else. And they look gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. As far as you asked the question about what's the most important thing in my room and part of my setup. For me, I would have to say the way I have setup for the ambient heat. So my, you know, what do you call it? Rate. I want to say radiant heat battle, but it's not a radiant heat panel. You're your space heater or what do you want here? Yeah. You're the space heater. No, yeah. Oh, man. I lost it. You got the space heater confused with a radiant heat panel? Yeah, no. We're going to talk later. Space heater is kind of like an important part of my setup. I found that when I didn't have that before, it made it difficult to keep the room and even temperature and keep the, you know, all the cages and even temperature. So there's three things that I think that really help my room a lot. One, a fan, right? That's very, very important, I think. Number two is the space heater to keep the ambient temperatures. And number three for me here on the east coast, especially during the winter when, right now, it's like what? Two degrees outside? It is. It sucks. The heat kicks on and it's really dry heat and, you know, it's just, it's really a pain in the ass when it comes to, especially I find with IJs. They get that white, you know, chalky look and they, you know, sometimes have been, whatever. It just looks like they're dried out and it makes it difficult to, you know, then you're spraying them and I don't like doing that. But I use a humidifier. It's a simple humidifier. I put it in the room. I put it on the door today. It keeps the room, I think, a 60% humidity. I don't think humidity so far as like, you know, is, it's, it's weird. I don't think it's a necessity per se for carpets, but you have to look at your setup in particular. And if you haven't, you have to adjust to it. So if I was just keeping a carpet, you know, as a pet or maybe if I lived in Florida, humidity, I don't think would be an issue. And I really wouldn't run a humidifier. But for the fact of running the dry heat, I think you really need that in my setup, so. Yeah. What? Look at that. It's not my turn, you know, you're going off the list now. I don't know what to do. Anyway, with me, you know, my setup is racks for babies and juvies and for some small males because I have the 15, the five, the five to 15 quart tubs, the 32 quart tubs, and the 41 quart tubs. And then after that, for larger males and females, I have three foot cages and four foot cages, three by two by two and four by two by two. For the chondros, I do have the cubes. They're not old enough or big enough to be in them yet. So they're in these smaller one by one by ones that I have. And they'll eventually move over, same thing with the rough scales. They won't move over to the cubes though, they'll go straight to the three footers. And I think they'll probably live in the three footers for the rest of their lives. But, and then we get into the weird ones, which are the olive pythons. We're right now in four by two by two and they're moving over to six by two by two, which probably the dimensions are going to be a little bit weirder. They're moving over to those probably this summer. And then they'll be in those. So, yes, raxons and cages. So, very cool. Okay, topic number two is substrate. This isn't something I think that people talk a lot about, but there's a lot of different trains of thought when it comes to that. So, Terrell, what do you use, why do you use it, have you used something in the past that made you move to what you're working with now? What were the pros and cons? What made you switch? Or have you always used the same thing? Terrell? He's un-beauty. Unless he muted him. Oh, yeah, there you are. Okay. When I first got into carpets, I would use sandy chips and aspen. And as I started getting more younger carpets and hatchlings, I was using primarily sandy chips for those. And then I was feeding a baby that was already difficult to feed. And as he was eating, he rolled over onto a bunch of dry sandy chips and started eating those too. And basically shoved his mouth full and he couldn't swallow anything. So, I happened to find him about 10 minutes later and I cleaned a bunch of it out. But his next poop was pure sandy chips. So, after that, it's been paper towels the entire time for hatchlings, juveniles, for all the sub-adults and adults. I was using newspaper and that sucks. So, I switched currently to a craft paper. Okay. From the hardware store. And I like it a lot better when they spill. It picks up the water easier and it's not running around in there and it's easier for me to clean out. So, for now, I was thinking about going back to a bedding, which I may do the next time that I have to clean everything out for the adults. But for now, it's mostly just paper. And newspaper is no longer something I'll be using. Just those giant paper towels and craft paper. So, I guess the advantage with the sandy chips is spot cleaning as opposed to when you're using paper towels. You have to sort of clean the whole enclosure type of thing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the trade-off is instead of having the sandy chips, I have to buy a lot more paper towels. But I'd rather that than having anyone swallow anything. So, you're the guy that comes into the grocery store and we say, man, what's this guy doing all these paper towels? Yep. All right. Very good. All right. Cool. Let's see. What else do we... Yeah, that was pretty much it, right? D&H juveniles and adults. Okay. All right. Let's see what... Riley, what do you use as far as shrubs, substrates? For all my carpets right now, I'm just running paper towels or newspaper for boas and other animals. I give them substrate, but I kind of like it. I'm really paranoid about impaction and over-ingestions of particles and it, you know, causes internal damage and stuff. I've seen it way too many times over the years and it just freaks me out a little bit. And not that, you know, they can't pass some of it just fine anyway, but the advantage to paper for me is I just run down the hill of the liquor store and pick up a huge stack of unused paper that, you know, they're not using it. They're like, well, thanks for helping us out. I'm like, no, you're helping me out. So, you know, it's cost effective, but it does, you know, it does require quite frequent cleaning because I'm a little OCD about my cleaning regimen. I'm in there twice a day in the morning and evening before working after at the very least, just eyeballing things and, you know, with paper, I can strip the whole thing. Disinfect it real quick with a spray, wipe it down, air it out, clean it and, you know, feel pretty confident that it's bacteria-free and, you know, I've been really fortunate. I think I've maybe only had one animal with any sort of, you know, infection or bacteria-related issue in the last, you know, five years or so. So it's been, yeah, I guess I could say it's working, but I'm always contemplating going back to some sort of like small particle organic bedding that, you know, isn't necessarily prone to molding for at least adults. Right. What do you use, just as a side note, what do you use for cleaning? Like what's cleaning chemical use? Where's the bottle of it? I have this, um, that related scent odor, uh, bacteria and microbes spray that, uh, I was using this, like, nature fresh stuff that wasn't good enough and then I got F10 as well. And then I can usually get my hands on this other pretty hardcore stuff. I can't remember the name of it right now for the life of me, but I had to concentrate and I dilute it and put it in a spray and spray it on. Got it. It's nowhere near as good as F10 though. Gotcha. Okay. Cool. All right. Let's see what, uh, Steve, how about you? What do you use for, oh wait, let's click it on here. Is he on there? It's like spinning and spinning and spinning. Like we, we, we haven't done this before, you know. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I don't know why he got it. There we go. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. All right. What about you? What do you use for substrate? What's your, uh, substrate of choice? So for my neonates, um, I like using paper towels like most people. Um, I know you guys mentioned about the spot cleaning being easier with other products, you know, like sandy chips and stuff like that. I like the paper towels still for the little guys. You could literally see if they eat it or not, which they're not going to eat it. So I like using that. It's, it's very absorbent. Um, even if they, I'm sure everybody has experienced it where they kind of sit weird or do something and it kind of bends up and sometimes they poop partially on the paper towel and partially on the tub. Using paper towel makes it pretty easy to, when you're trashing it, wipe up the tub as well and then just disinfect quickly and, you know, either put in a different tub or back into the tub it was in. Right. Um, so I really like paper towels and, okay, where I shop, uh, I'm able to get paper towels that are the, the same size as the bottom of the tubs that I'm using. Right. So it works out perfect. Cool. Cool. Cool. But with that being said, uh, recently I've been thinking about doing something like ego earth and I had posted somewhere to see if anybody was doing something similar to that because I was thinking of using those little bugs, uh, isopods, if anyone's familiar with them and seeing if I could get the isopods, um, to kind of eat the poop and make it, you know, clean itself type thing, but I haven't experimented with that. Um, so maybe one day I'll let you guys know about that. So you want to do like a bioactive substrate type of thing? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. That's, that's the dream, right? That is. It's, I have one going on right now in the Nile monitor cage and it's fantastic. I don't do anything with them. I just feed them. So, yeah, awesome. Oh, yeah. So when you say feed them, you put poop in there for them to eat. I, well, no, I feed the monitors and they feed the isopods. So it's kind of that little circle there. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I provide poop for the isopods. Yeah. Um, for my juveniles, um, those guys, I do use, uh, everything from eco earth newspaper to pine shavings. I'm constantly mixing it up. Um, the reason being is when an animal happens to shed and it looks really nice. Depending on its color, I'll say, oh, you contrast well on this bedding. So I'm going to put you on it. Um, and, and that's kind of what, what I do. So I'm constantly switching it up. And for my juveniles and adults, like I said, it's, it's the eco earth or the adults sometimes cypress mulch, pine shavings or newspaper. Um, as, as of recently, I put my adult jungles on the bleached white care fresh. And they contrast really well. And it's really absorbent. When they go, that stuff is just like, it's never seen the water. So it soaks it all up. Wow. And just, and so far, I'm a big fan of that. It's, it's not too cheap. I don't think, um, I'm able to get it, you know, in bulk at wholesale prices. And I'm kind of one of those. Well, I need it. So don't look at the price tag. It's like gas. Yeah. Yeah. Right. You're an embarrassed. Cool. Exactly. Okay. So that's what I use. And all of those products I like, I haven't had problems with them. And like I said, as, as of recently, I'm using that care fresh for adults. And I'm a big fan of it now. Like I said, the animals look great on it and it's super absorbent. Hmm. Okay. Interesting. What about you, Owen? For me, um, I use newspaper for everybody. So, and I, I mean, I've experimented with other things. I used mulch for a while and that was cool because it smelled nice. Um, but I guess there was, I couldn't get over the small, I got gnats or something that were in the mulch and were driving me absolutely crazy. So we didn't do mulch. And I used to work with sandy chips and care fresh and play things like that at the zoo that I worked for. And newspaper just seems to be the easiest one for me. I can get it in large quantities because I've talked with businesses around the area that have like the newspaper machines where people come in and like buy them or they have like the weekly one. So a lot of them will just, you know, and a lot of friends of mine will just hold onto paper for me and I'll just grab it. So, uh, that works. And, uh, I think it was, it's really easy to get in there. You walk in and it's somebody's dirty. I can just remove the snake, crinkle all the paper. I use bleach for everything. So I just bleach out the entire tub, dry it out, put new paper down and put the snake back. We're done. So, uh, that's what I found to be the easiest for me. Um, and I will probably have to think of something, especially when the white lips start becoming a little bit more of age that might work better for them humidity wise because that's always a bitch with them. So, uh, I'll figure that out when we get further down on the road. I mean, my guys are still, uh, two of these. So we got time. And you, what, yeah, I know you use the unprinted stuff, right? Yeah, I just use unprinted newspaper. I've, I've messed with multiple things. You know, I've done cypress mulch. Same thing. I didn't like the gnats and I don't know. Sometimes I always felt that that kind of like made me lazy with the spot cleaning and like, I, you know, I, I don't know. I just, I, I just find myself, I'm more regimented and I get in there and I clean. I take it out. I take the paper out. Um, I don't know if the carpets like it or not. I usually, you know, to me, it seems to be, um, I never see them barrel or anything like that. So the only thing that I do different as far as a substrate is like, cause I keep them in tubs. When I have a female that's gravid and she's going to lay, what I use as a substrate is I just put the entire tub, I feel with spag from moss. Um, I find that, uh, you know, that's the only time that I see your kind of, you know, get down in there and I don't think that, uh, I think it maybe helps them feel more secure. You know, I, you know, I don't know, it's just kind of a thought. Uh, I think it's probably better than going under a piece of paper or whatever and, uh, you know, I just, I don't know, I don't know if it makes a difference or not. Uh, if, if I put it in an S box and it's kind of like, you know, especially with dealing with tubs, you're not going to have, you know, maybe the right size tub that she can get into. So it's in a tub. So why not make the whole tub the nest box and she can pay where she wants to buy. Um, you know, if I was doing maternal incubation, I prefer to have some type of nest box. However, I have done the maternal incubation in a tub with spag, the moss in the entire tub. So, um, with no issues, but I don't know paper towels I use for, um, the, uh, six quart tubs that I use for, uh, babies, simply because the, uh, I think it's bounty selected size are the perfect fit for the six quart and it just kind of rip it and stick it and you're done. Uh, super simple. Um, but other than that, you know, I use unprinted newspaper. I cut it down the size and, you know, that's it. Very cool. Yup. So guess the next one for me is, where are you, what would be mistakes? And, uh, what are your thoughts on sharing mistakes? I know kind of some people throw up or throw up a mistake online and they kind of get chastised for it, um, oversights and what lessons have you learned from a particular mistake that you have made? Terrell? Um, I think that sharing mistakes is a big, important part just as much as, you know, getting your next cool snake. The things that you have not been so successful with are things that you should share with people that are new or maybe have not seen or heard of a particular problem before. You know, uh, that was one of the driving factors behind why how we set up the discussion board was we wanted people to be able to talk about this stuff with other people that aren't going to, you know, call you stupid because you did this or everybody makes mistakes. A lot of people don't talk about them because they don't want to feel that harassment. So I encourage it. And you know, when I mess up or if there's something that I can relate to, I'll usually comment that it's something that is relevant to your topic, um, as far as mistakes that I've made, like, uh, we were just talking about one the other day with, um, preventative measures with mites. And I remember one time I had, uh, the pest strips that you get and you, you can cut them up and then it'll take care of the mites faster than spraying them down. And so for that, I put one that was too big, like a chunk that was too big that I cut out into a neonate, uh, six quart tub and these fumes ended up killing two of my neonates. Uh, yeah, all right. I actually have made that mistake myself. Yeah. So I was trying to do a few percent and issue for me and new snakes and I ended up killing two of my own that were perfectly fine. So, you know, things like that, like people don't think that that stuff can happen or you know, it happens and they keep it to themselves. But it happened, you know, I've learned from it, I don't do it anymore and you just move on to that. Right. And nobody, nobody warns you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. When they're telling you this simple trick, nobody ever warns you what could go wrong. So, you know, they, they experienced it, but they're telling you, they're just giving you the pros of doing it. But I call it, you know, for me to figure this out, five of my animals died. Yeah. Geez. Well, all right. That is a good one. So we'll go to Riley, the same question. Well, all right, that is a good one, so Riley, that's the name. Riley there? Uh, can you guys hear me? Yeah. Okay. So, same thing, what are you thoughts on sharing mistakes? I think you're going to delay, so, Riley's going to delay, I think, yeah. Oh, all right, let's get, yeah, Riley, you're on the delay. We're going to go to Steve and then, you get Riley and we'll go back. Yeah. All right, Steve, same thing. What about mistakes? I don't have any, just kidding. I'm perfect, yeah, okay. I think it's really helpful. I, and recently, I think within the last few months to a year, I saw, in my opinion, Terrell posting a lot of stuff about mistakes and this kind of happened to me and it kind of opened up the floodgates, in my opinion, to kind of talk about it, because it's true. Stuff happens, you know, and he's actively posting and there, there's good and bad about keeping, you know, animals, you're going to get an animal that's sick, that has a weak immune system and sometimes it's not neglect, sometimes it's stress. The things that cause, you know, the animal to suffer. And so talking about it, I think, could help save an animal. I posted just, I think it was last night, about how I was trying to save time and I had a pair of carpets together that were in the same tub for breeding and instead of feeding up the female in her own cage that was empty anyways, I just threw her in a pillowcase and, you know, tied it up and put it back in the same tub and, you know, check on her a little bit later and she had finished a rat but rolled into the water bowl and, you know, this is like October, November time, when it was super cold and I freaked, but luckily I saw that she was moving in the bag and I opened it up and, you know, she was ice cold and seeing, you know, tied up in a bag she could have drowned in that water bowl, could have got so cold that she died or got so cold that she ended up developing a respiratory infection and that would have been a mistake from me doing that and I posted it, the snake is fine but I posted it so that way, you know, maybe somebody else who does something similar or doesn't think about, you know, restricting a snake to one area that it ends up in the water bowl or something stupid where it drowns or suffers. So, talking about the mistakes, yeah, it's tough and nobody wants to do it, nobody wants to have that name of, well, SBK reptiles made a mistake and I don't want to buy it from them or whatever. It happens but at the end of the day, everybody experiences something. I'm sure if you talk to, you know, the big names, the guys on the East Coast, West Coast or Central U.S. out of the U.S., everybody experiences something and talking about it I think could really help and we should do it more. I completely agree it's one of those things where it's like chastising somebody for coming out and telling you what they've experienced is not a good way to go about it. It's kind of like you're limiting what you could learn just by everybody being afraid to voice their things, so, yeah, definitely. So, all right, so Riley, you can hear us now, right? Yeah, we're, all right, so back to you, we've gone this way. So mistake and sharing, what do you think? I'm all for information sharing, especially if they can help somebody out or save the animals from a sticky situation, I mean, no need to be selfish, we're all, we're all trying to get somewhere and that's, you know, having fun with our animals at the very least so why not help each other out in that way? You know, I just think people need to always remember to tune the emotions down and if you see somebody making a mistake or something like that or sharing something that's messed up on and they're looking for advice, you just got to be delicate about the way you, you know, give people advice if you're going to, like, if you can't control your emotions and you're going to, like, rage out on somebody, probably shoot anything, you know, just like stay quiet, somebody else will get to it hopefully, but, you know, if you can do it in a constructive way and kind of influence somebody and the hobby and the general in a positive way, then, you know, I don't see any harm in that so, you know, we're all kind of, we've all been there somewhere, we've all been at one point or another so you just, you know, got to keep some perspective on that because there's my 10 cents on it. Yeah, I would agree, it really is one of those things. Yeah, definitely, mistakes that I've made and I've learned from. I get impatient, especially with eggs, yeah, to me, I start counting down and I get very much in my head, oftentimes I have to rain, rain myself in some jumping in the gun because I don't, you know, but if I'm cutting eggs or anything like that or paring animals, you know, I always look back on me like, you know, I should have waited a couple more days or a couple more weeks or whatever or something like that. But we didn't learn from my snakes, I found that the animals, you know, they're going to tell you what they need, what they're going to do if you're the most part, you just got to pay attention to all the little subtle signs, you know, don't jump again as much as I want to say, I think I know what the best thing to do is sometimes leading it to the animals, you know, they seem to handle themselves to the most part just fine and trying to not freak out and stress out about them, so, yeah, right. Okay, definitely. Well, I think my most famous mistake is probably am I success, am I failure? My most famous one. Yeah, that was fun. Now I'm on the mindset again, I think that, you know, I think that Herp the Culture is held back because people don't share these things. I also, to a certain extent, understand why people don't share them because there's people out there that they can't just, a lot of people don't have an open mind when it comes to things. No. You know, I think, I don't know, I just wish, I just wish the internet was a little more friendly. A little bit tamer. Yeah, or, yeah, if you just have a comment that, you know, if you want to bash somebody for doing something, you know, kind of do it behind closed doors, I've seen all kinds of things of, you know, there's even groups that are about this, of people making mistakes and being ridiculed and whatnot, you know, I mean, there's some that are agreed to. They're just, like, really bad, you know, and probably that person shouldn't have a reptile. And then there's other ones that, you know, it's just from somebody telling them something or getting some misinformation from somewhere. Again, like I said, at the beginning of the show, you know, when you go and you type in carpet bithons on Facebook, you know, what comes up, you know, and whatever comes up is what people are going to go to. And sometimes that might not be the right spot for you to go to and you might get misinformation or old information, you know, and I don't know. So, and then people, when they have this information, they take it as Bible and then when, for instance, you know, if, you know, an idea would be about spraying or not spraying, you know, people literally get in these, you know, internet debates for hours and hours about whether they should spray or not spray, but they're both having success. So I don't understand what the debate is about, you know what I mean? So, I think that us talking about it and other podcasts, radio, I mean reptile podcasts, talking about that type of thing, I think has brought to light the fact that for me to keep, for you to keep Owen here on the East Coast is different for these guys that are on the West Coast, you know, we have to, you know, take different things into consideration. Overall, we have to go about it different ways because we have different parameters that our rooms are at or our cages are at or whatever the case may be. So, I don't know. But like I said, my biggest mistake I think, you know, early on was the fact that I thought that all my snakes are going to do maternal incubation and be 100% because that's what they do in the wild and I'm not going to have any problems and I don't need an incubator and I didn't have it ready and yeah, that didn't work out too well. No, no, it did not. Well, actually it did in the end, you know, because I didn't have always bailed me out, but yeah, everything was fine. Yeah. And it did lead into back lots Python stuff, but, you know, I'd damn it. Yeah, that's certainly so, you know. But what about you? Anyway, my biggest mistake would be getting complacent with the heating and computer systems that I have in place. There is something that I think everybody should, there's something where people set up their heat systems, their heat tapes, their computer systems, their cages, and then they're good. And what happens is they, at least in my case, you're good and then you kind of forget about it until something breaks, until something goes wrong. You should always check your heat tapes for plots that are going darker, not working. You should swap them out every year or so, and then you should always check your computer systems. I had a RANCO that I used forever, ever, ever, ever. It was one of the first higher dollar computer systems that I ever bought, and it never let me down. And I went away for the weekend, and the RANCO system tripped and shorted or something went wrong. Long story short, it took my pair of chondros up to, I think the max was like 200 degrees or eight hours, it was like 109, it was up there. They died. Both pair of chondros, both of them died. So it cooked them up really nice. And it was just through the RANCO being old and me not paying any attention to it. So it's like, every so often, I think everybody should replace their heat tapes, check their hot spots, they should, if a brand new computer system's out there, maybe take a look at something old, replacing it, or even just rewiring computer systems that you already have. Just kind of keep on top of it. That would be my thing. So. Okay. Gotcha. That's important stuff, some things you definitely don't think about for sure. All right. Let's get on to feeding. This was something that I saw over on the Carpet Python discussion page and it was something that I've thought about, you know, from time to time. But when it comes to the idea of utilizing supplements with your animals, rapache, super pig, that's a supplement it's designed to enhance the diet of reptiles, fish, amphibians and birds, it's, you know, helps with their color and stuff. I know that Rob Stone uses that, whether it does or it doesn't, not really sure, you know, there's no definitive answer on whether or not it does. I don't know. What do you think, Terrell? As far as supplements go, do you think it's something that maybe we should think a little bit more about or? Yeah, I'm definitely interested in trying them. I had been talking to a couple of people a few months back that it started using them day because it was their initial run of using it. They hadn't really seen any differences in any of their animals, but I don't see the harm in trying it and at the reptile super showed a couple of weeks ago, I was talking to Robin Marklin, he was at the rapache booth and I had seen some of the products and so I had taken one of the brochures and with the stuff up on mine. So I think the next, over the summer I'll try doing supplements for all the animals or at least half and then seeing if I see any differences in them, growth-wise or anything like that. But yeah, it's definitely something that I'm interested in trying it. Like I said, I don't see the harm in at least trying it seeing if it's any benefits to the animals doing it that way. Is there any particular product that you are thinking about using? Not yet. I'm still looking around, asking questions because for a while I was going to do the catch up the links too, I just made the jump into that either so I'm kind of weighing everything that's out there right now first before I make a decision on that. I guess I'm going to go down this list since we won't go back and forth, but just in feeding in general and supplements and stuff like that. But what are your thoughts on size of prey and frequency of feeding for carpets? My frequency of feeding is probably a lot different than a lot of people. I feed usually when they're pacing back and forth in front of the enclosure, so that could be a month for now from now for sub-adults. I don't really have a feed schedule I used to, but I used to be very rigorous with that. But now I personally feel that my animals are better off that way. They're not always eating and I'm waiting for them to poop to feed them again. I'm not trying to grow them quickly, so I personally feel that's better for them. I do it for the bloods too, I only keep the males at 8, 10 pounds, so no you'll never see any of my bloods at 6 feet, 25 pounds or anything like that. Oh wow, do you find that? Go ahead. I was just like my two, well one of them she, the one that I used internal incubation for, I feed her regularly because I'm trying to get her back up the way, not to breathe, but just to get her back to where she was. But my other female that I just have as a pet, I had fed her five times last year. She actually went up and wait not by much, but she didn't lose anyway and she's perfectly healthy. And it's just one large rat five times last year. Okay, wow. What about, you said that you were doing it different when you switched up and you started feeding them just as you would see them wanting food. Did you notice a difference, like did they maintain the weight, did you see that they seem healthier? Initially, I think it was more I was paranoid because before I used to always, I have like a little book of other weights from every two weeks that I would do. So I kind of had to take myself out of that mindset of doing that. So at first I felt like they were losing weight, but at the same time, the ones that I thought were losing weight were two of them had RIs, so they were losing weight regardless. But now that this year, now that I'm not really keeping track out, I'll do weights every three months, just to kind of see if they were losing weight, I haven't lost any weight drops this year at all. So I think this coming summer and going into winter, I'll probably do the same thing. I'll just keep them on the same regiment. The ones that I want to breed, they'll get the size a little more regularly, but other than that, I'll just keep doing what I'm doing. And like I said earlier, I haven't had any things get sick. They're more active, more alert now, not in a more aggressive way, where every time I open it, they're ready for food, but you can definitely see them moving around more. Right. I would ask this question too, because it was going to be what are your thoughts on cycle feeding, but tied into how you're working with your animals. Do you notice that maybe they want to be fed more often right prior to breeding season? This year, yes. I had to actually stock up on food because now I can see it, and it's funny because before when I was going to take rats out of the freezer and start warming them up, you can see one or two come to the front. Now all of them, you can see them all do it, and it's a pretty interesting watch. So there's been a different activity wise this year, opposed to last year. So there is a difference now that a complete year has gone by, but I haven't seen any negative effects of it. So they're more or less tuning into the cycle that you're providing them. Okay. Yeah, that's kind of important. What about, you know, one of the things that comes up, I'm sure you've heard it a million times with newbies in the carpets, one of the things they dread, it seems to be especially prominent with jungles is switching from mice to rats. Have you had any, you know, problems with this or any issues when it comes to the switch? I have, so this year I had 15 babies. Here's one that hasn't made the switch from mice to rats, and it's a live mouse fuzzy. That's all it wants to eat, all the others that did on their own, I didn't really have to put it on them. I just one day control a mouse to a rat, and they took it. Now I have a couple of IJs that are older that only prefer rats, but they're both males. So I don't really try to switch them, they're not being said anyways, but I just kind of leave them like that. But all the other animals, I haven't really had that much of a problem switching them from mice to rats. I did the previous year getting babies from other people. I was having a real hard time getting them to eat that way, but now they're fine. Gotcha. Okay. And what are your thoughts, this would be the last question, as far as a varied diet. Do you think that there's anything that could be good as far as varying the diet? Do you think that it doesn't matter? What's your thoughts? I think so, because in the wild we would think that they wouldn't eat the same thing every single time. I mean there's going to be meals where there's going to be identical, but I think that if you can vary it, if you have the means of doing it, even now with adults or some adults or adult males, I'll throw in a mouse instead of their medium rat. And though you didn't then go back to eating rats. I've done guinea pigs before, I did quail once. And then so this year I'll probably, for the adults, do chicks and quails, if they prefer that more. Because when I was doing the guinea pigs, somebody would tell me, oh don't leave them on guinea pigs because that's something that they really want because it's high and fat and then they'll want to stay on that. So I haven't done that in a while, but yeah, I think varied diets is something that, and that I'll also play in with the supplements too when I start getting to that stuff. I'll probably start switching up what their prey size is and what they're eating. I wonder, you just made a statement about how guinea pigs could be higher in fat. I wonder if that could be beneficial, feeding them, something like that, prior to going into the breeding. Yeah. Interesting. For sure. Okay. Cool. Let's see. We got Riley. Let's see what he has to say about feeding. Hey, Riley. Okay. Same questions. What are your thoughts on supplementing? Have you ever put any thought into adding supplements into your diet for your carpets? You know, I keep hearing about the compassion, super pig stuff and I haven't honestly looked into it too much, but you know, if I find out that it seems to be at least not harmful and potentially beneficial, but I might give it a whirl. I currently do not use any of it, but yeah, I like supplementing my lizards and a whole bunch of other animals I care for, so you know, why can't, you know, stay benefit for it. So I do plan on looking into it more and, you know, a very diet is always good to supplements. I mean, why not? Okay, so you do vary the diet now or is that just something you're thinking about as far as with your, with your animals? You know, I always try to keep it in mind. I know if the animals I work with at the zoo, when they get bored with food sometimes it always reminds me about that. I mean, yeah, variety is probably something that I don't put like the highest priority on for some of them, but try to remember it at least once in a while, that's for sure. Okay, what about as far as, you know, the size of the prey and the frequency of feeding, do you have any thoughts when it comes to that? Yeah, so for size and prey, especially while they're growing, I like to see a good solid lump, carpets can pound food and they can eat massive meals. And from some studies I've seen, you know, you'll get pretty good growth rates out of one larger meal versus, you know, a few smaller size meals in one sitting. So when they're, you know, when they're growing, I like to feed them weekly up until like two, two and a half years depending on what they're eating and that one size that typically around two years or three, all switching to every other week. And then into adulthood, I like to go every two weeks, every three weeks sometimes, especially if I'm doing like actual large rats, things like that with some of those animals. You know, if they're already at the size and I'm not trying to get them up to size for breeding season or anything like that, there's no reason to push it. But while they're young and growing, I mean, they can handle it, why not feed the need? >> Right. >> Right. Okay. What about, have you had any bad experiences with switching, you know, prey items, like mice to rats? >> Not necessarily. A lot of the times they'll find that the jump from mice to rats can be gradual for a few individuals that aren't the most robust eaters, like, especially in like yearlings, sometimes they're a little hesitant at first, but I like to put on a little show with them. You know, I'm very mindful of how I approach them with that animal, if I'm switching them to rats per se, you know, versus bangling the rat or coming out of Orzak or do I, you know, make it seem like or not. Sometimes I'll pull out the stops to make sure I don't experience too much difficulty. But, you know, for the most part, carpets, they're awesome. I love them for their appetite and sports is the best thing to do. >> Right. >> Smuzzles. That being said, every once in a while, I find, you know, some of them can get picky, but it's never been very long. >> And, all right, I think, do you have any thoughts when it comes to as far as cycle feeding? Did you ever think about that? >> Yeah. You know, a lot of time with females, I like to give them a little extra as they're getting ready to cool down. Because if I'm breeding them or not, I'm going to slow up their feeding in the winter. So I've got females that are not quite up to size to breed, but, you know, they're large enough to handle some fasting periods and I'm really curious to see if putting them through somewhat of a fasting period in the winter, you know, might make them, I don't know, maybe at all see better results than they're breeding down the line once they are in the lineup. So I'm curious about that, but I slow it down to the winter for sure. >> Okay. >> And leading up to it, I make sure they get all they feel like, you know, taking within reason. So. >> Okay. All right. Cool. Awesome stuff. Let's see what Steve has to say. Steve, what about you when it comes to, you know, we'll start at the beginning. What about supplements? Do you ever think about that or want to add that in or? >> Yeah, super pig, I had posted, I think about a year ago now asking if anybody had tried to use it, I know, excuse me, I know that it does work for bearded dragons. I've seen animals that were adults or babies just go from, you know, red for example, from a simple red to a really vibrant red and stuff, other animals, other bearded dragons that had yellow in them, same thing the yellow really started to pop. So I wanted to use it for my snakes, but I've yet to find a way to give it to them. And that's why I asked how Rob Stone is doing it because I was thinking I'm gonna have to rank in Stein something, you know, pre-kill a rat and slice its back open and pour some powder in there. So I don't know how to give it to them. The other concern and issue is that they don't metabolize the same, but I guess no reptile metabolizes anything the same as people or mammals, I should say, right? So that would just be the only concern, but I'm all for particularly super pig because I stand by that product and I don't work for Ropashi, but I see that it does work. So I'd love to use it. Okay. Something that I do use currently are UVB bulbs, like the Zumed 10.0s in my feeders. And specifically with red light, I have seen their color really pop and become more vibrant. I don't believe that UVB or sunlight has anything to do with snake health, but I do believe that it helps with color. From my experience, from articles I've read online, everybody who has used it has liked the results of it and I myself like the results of using the bulbs on my snakes. Right. Yeah, I've heard that before quite a bit. Often wondered if it would make a difference for sure. What about what are your thoughts with frequency of feeding the size of the prey, any? For babies I produce hatchlings, I used to start them on rats because I personally hated the transition of buying a snake at a show, whether it be a $50 pet or a $500 future breeder. I hated trying to switch it over because I don't know about you guys, but I'm struggling. You guys are talking about switching up the prey and stuff. And my jungles and Erian Jayas give me a lot of back talk when it comes to switching a mouse to a rat. Really? So I used to start them on rats so that way when I try to sell them I could say, "Yeah, they're already on rats." And then I found that some of the people that are buying my snakes want a pet and they don't want to buy a $3 rat pinky at their local reptile store or whatever. They want to buy a cheap mouse. So now I'm doing mice for my hatchlings. In terms of how often I'm feeding them, I feed them pretty well. I get mice wholesale, so I feed them well because a lot of people kind of like to see that color come in or want a little bit of a bigger baby to know it's doing well, stuff like that. And a wise man once told me, "You can't overfeed a growing reptile." After it hits adult size, you can overfeed it and make it obese and shorten its life. But up until that point, in the first couple of years in my experience with carbapat fines, you can pretty much slam them with food. And I think as I mentioned in the last show that I was on, I don't do more than three feedings without them having a bowel movement. My adults, once they hit adult size, whether they're breeders or pets, it's only a few times a year. When I had my big bread lye, I was feeding them four times a year and they were puppy dog came. It was a large meal, but four times a year. And some people cringe and others that know about snakes go, "Oh, yeah, they're fine." Same thing. Not seeing any weight loss, they're not coming, flying at me, trying to eat me. They're just happily content with that. So my adults and sub-adults, once they hit breeding size, I don't like to feed them too much except for females right before breeding season because I generally don't like to feed through breeding season, I like to replicate the cycle, winter. And that touches on that in terms of cycle feeding when I don't really feed my females during the cooling process after about November until generally after they lay their eggs. Do you feed the male? Males sometimes. I have like this young, asantic, eerie, and giant male that I have. He was, when I last weighed him like a week ago, he's 575 grams and I had introduced him to females probably in October and I was trying to feed him and then he just stopped eating. So I was like, "All right, he's done eating." But other than that, I don't feed males. Same thing, I let them just go through unless they're small. Gotcha. And in my personal experience for anyone who may ask how to switch some snakes from mice to rats, I had two female eerie and jies that were 8 years old when I finally bred them because they were mouse ears. And after they laid their eggs, the first thing I offered them was a rat. And lo and behold, they took it and now they eat rats. So that may be one way to switch them is just breed them when they're up to weight and then offer them a rat. Okay. I've heard that before. I've heard that with ball pythons too. What about, what was the other one? What about a very diet? Do you have any thoughts on that? I think it's great. I would love to do it. If I personally were to do it, I would probably do like chicken parts. There's somebody who I saw online, I can't think of their name. It's probably one of the mics that's online. They bred their female jungle and they had to get her up to weight feeding her like chicken legs and stuff. I would probably do that if I'm going to do a very diet because that's something that you could get at the supermarket regularly. I used to switch it up. I had one of my really pretty jungle males that when he was growing up, he would just eat anything, mice, rats, whatever. And one day I came across some free hamsters that somebody wanted to dump on me and said it's okay, you could use them to snake food. I gave him a couple and he went off food for, gosh, like seven months and it was just killer. And after that, I was like never again because for me, hamsters aren't easy to get. I don't shop at Petco PetSmart and I wasn't going to go there to get some pet hamsters as to feeders. So to answer the question, I think it would be great to do a very diet. But if you do, in my opinion, give them something you could get your hands on with no problem because I had that nightmare. And I took my hat to you guys that are switching it up and your animals are just eating whatever. I see them going off of food. I would comment since I have you on here real quick is that my experience has been that when I feed, when I was feeding weekly or like on a regimented schedule, I found that it was difficult to get the switch. But once I changed that and I feed them very sparingly, they're just going to eat because they're going to eat whatever they can get. Yeah, that's been mine. Okay. I don't know. It's interesting. No doubt. All right. Let's see what Owen. Owen. What about you? Yes. I feed nothing. Well, I feed nothing but mice and rats and chicken. So I don't feed sparingly. I will give the scrubs mainly a bird diet because it allows me to feed them on the same regiment that I have the carpets on, but it doesn't let them get fat and they keep that lean scrub body. Correct. I found that certain other animals will like chicken too, but I had the hardest time getting my macaws fight on off of chicken and actually took his first breeding season of going down for several months without food to get him onto rats and I used to give him any more chicken because I don't want to do that again. So it's one of those things where I don't really bury their diet too much. When they're babies, I will raise them on mice and then once they're old enough or large enough, before probably their first year, I will get them onto rats and then that's it. Then they're good. I don't ever move them on to anything else or bury it or change it. I was one of those guys that when I first got into carpets by thorns, so I'm going to explain to me that pinkies and fuzzies don't have anything in them and they're pretty much just water. So I was dipping the pinkies and the fuzzies in calcium powder and rectivitamin and all that other stuff and then I kind of just got it into my head to get them to their larger prey item as fast as you can and that's better for them than dealing with that or starting them off on like hoppers where they have the bones and they're a little bit older in the mice, so that always seemed to be better for them and that's pretty much what I do. I don't supplement anything anymore now. I just feed them what I got, so how about you, Eric? Have you had issues with switching from mice to rats? Never, I had one and that's because it was a coastal carpet that all I did was feeding them mice and mice and mice and mice as you got older and then all of a sudden I ended up having a two year old that was too big for the biggest mice I could get and wouldn't take a rat. So now I just make sure they're going to transition them over to rats while they're still tiny because I've never had a baby carpet that's still in a baby rack, refused to transition over from mice to rats, they seem to just kind of latch right onto it, I just transitioned over my newest examic jag and he took it like a champ, of course I'm saying this in my albino is giving me trouble right now, so let me get back to you on that. Let me stop what I'm saying and I'll get back to you on this. I mean as far as, I haven't had a problem in a while, like a very, very long time, so. Yeah Darwin's can be quite picky eaters for sure, no doubt. What is up with that? Why is that? I don't know. Jerk. Probably because they're very close to the wild animals, you know, they're wild cousins or whatever, I don't know, not a lot of generations removed. You're making sense of this, okay, just call the jerks and we'll move on. Okay, so for me personally, currently I don't use supplements, but I have wondered about it and I wonder if it would help with the long-term success of carpets and I have a couple of thoughts that kind of makes, at least in my mind it makes sense, like for instance, you know, people often wonder, they get slugs, people often get, you know, poorly calcified eggs, you know, and basically you have to think about, if you really don't know where your prey, your food is coming from, how do you know what kind of diet the food is getting? Yeah. And that can make a difference in, you know, how your animals, how healthy they are. I mean, basically if you eat shit, you are shit, you know, that kind of mindset. I don't know, adding calcium to the diet, you know, the debate is there, or if they're eating whole prey items, what's the need, I guess, you know, but what is anything getting lost when the food is frozen, you know, I don't know, it's something that I've thought about, I know that for people, frozen food, you know, some people will say lose nutrients and, you know, vitamins and stuff, you know, I don't know, I often wonder if that's why Matt does pre-killed prey. I think Matt will pre-kill prey because it's easy for Matt, I mean, like, let's not go into a 2D. Well, you think about, like, the same thing I do, what would make this go easier going? Yeah, the gut of the, of a live animal, I would imagine that, you know, all the things that are living in bacteria and such, is it, is that something that would help animals with our eyes and, you know, I don't know, I may be thinking now crazy, you know, but this is sometimes, oh, I think, and the report is, who's running around and putting supplements in calcium powder on the live prey out there in the wild? They're not, but they're all the prey is also eating in their lives. Yeah, and it's, and these animals aren't necessarily eating European mice and rats, which is what we're all trying to get them to eat, so, let's, we want to start raising kangaroo mice for carbonate vons or a whole bunch of skinks, there could be something lost in the diet. Yeah, could there be something that's in, you know, for instance, is that why they eat reptiles when they're younger and they move to mammals when they're older? I would imagine that there has to be something in that probably lean, you know, stuff like that. Well, yes and no, because, I mean, I raised the Dominicans on reptile, and then sweetened them over to rodents, and right now the one black Dominican I have is right on par eating rat pups with the carbon pythons at the same age. They all look the same kind of body concept. So I mean, I don't know, they don't look like, it doesn't look like one is better than the other. If anything, the garbage looks bigger. Yeah, as far as, for me, as far as size of prey and frequency of feeding, one of the things that I have done, especially this year, is offered larger size prey less often, except, you know, my thinking is, is that every time I see a wild carpet, it seems like they have a huge gut where they just swallowed a while of a year or something, you know what I mean? So does that help with their growth overall, larger prey? I know, I said this a few times, but if you listen back to when Sean Christian was on, he talked about how his thoughts was something along the lines of feeding larger prey. The animal grows faster and better, you know, I don't know, it's just something that's stuck in my head. Like I said, I always had, as far as switching, I have never had an issue after I moved to a more cycle type of feeding. I like the way what Terrell was saying earlier about how he waits until he sees, you know, his carpets sort of less moving around, looking for food, similar to what Ryan Young does with chondros. If you remember back with his interview, that was something that he was big when he doesn't really have any kind of regimen or anything. The only thing that I do as far as a regimen is I don't feed it all from basically the winter season during cooling down, smaller meals when they warm back up. But right before breeding season, I would say probably around June, I just really put the food to especially anybody that's going to be breeding. I have thought about moving to like maybe feeding them rabbits, smaller rabbits, you know, especially for those females that get those meals in there. I think it's important to have the females slightly overweight, you know, during the storm breeding season, as far as a varied diet, again, something that I've been thinking about, you know, offering it up, something different every once in a while. I would imagine that if I spent my whole life eating the same thing, I don't know, you know, but again, we're different. I know mammals are different than reptiles. But, you know, maybe there's something that's missing from their diet, you know, again, I don't know. I guess that's where that supplementation comes into play. What else? What was the other ones? I think that was it. Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at. Cool. All right. All right. So I guess what we're getting on to now is your thoughts on a UV cycle and light cycles. Terrell, do you use UV bulbs in your guys, or do you have a light cycle for you guys? Currently no. I used to have, for the ones that were in enclosures, I had lights in there, but currently if it's not going to be an overcast day, I'll usually just open a curtain in my room, and then it's pretty well living here. So the sun comes up, it'll be bright during the afternoon, and then once sun goes down, that's pretty much all the light that you get till I get home. I don't really do anything other than that. Okay. Do you see any added benefits, maybe? Have you seen anything online about UV? I've seen a good thing. I've seen that UV over time brings out the colors better, but that would take me a while to actually figure out if that was true or not for my animals. When I take them outside, they look good. That's pretty much how far you can be. There you go. So take them outside every once in a while. Yeah. Yeah. I live right next to a park, so when it's warm outside, I'll usually take three or four at a time and just have them out on the grass. That could go amazing if somebody were to be walking by and not notice the Torel, which is out there with a bunch of carpets and tons of bloods, I mean they're great. Anyway, but there was the question that kind of popped up in the discussion group over on Facebook, and it kind of fits in with UV. If you had UV on your baby's snakes and you sold it, do you think that it would now decrease in color and kind of look uglier after somebody bought it? So it would be absent of UVB after you sell it. Yeah. Or supplement. It's sort of like misrepresenting the animals. Yeah. Pulling the wool over somebody's eyes a little bit. It would be if I could confirm that it actually changed the colors of that animal that drastically. Very good point. All right. I'll buy that one. It's almost like staging a, it's almost like how it's like the animal and take the picture and it looks amazing and then you get it, you know, you take pictures with your cell phone. Yeah. I've had that happen where I've bought animals and they're like, "Oh, this animal looks amazing." And like the lighting they're using, I could tell that they were, you know, trying to sell me something, but it wasn't as bad as I thought when I went to go see the animals like, "Oh, wow." Right. Here it is. There it is. All right. Yeah, so I could see UVB playing into that and then, you know, the person that you sell if you're not having it and being a complete, not completely different animal, but the color's not standing out as much as you thought they would. Right. They might be a little disappointed and you don't want it. That's all you need is somebody being a keyboard cowboy about you or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I could see that. All right. So that was a good example. I like that. Riley, what do you think about UVB bulbs? Do you use any on your guys? Looking around? No, actually, I don't use any UV on them. Okay. I have a couple angles in the room that I have everybody in where I've got windows so I can get sun coming in from both ends at a different end of the day. But I'm sure to leave my blinds open so it kind of reflects a natural sunlight cycle that's going on outside and I also pay attention to if I'm going in and out of the room, whether I've got just the overhead lights on or off, like if I'm doing stuff kind of, you know, well after 738 and, you know, naturally they'd be experiencing a dark part of the day. I'm pretty aware of that and I tried not to use any overhead lights. I'll actually walk around a flashlight in my own room. I've got lights everywhere and I can just pop on. It's like, you know, it probably won't really care, but I try to, you know, stick to the light cycle that I've going on and let them adjust to that and kind of let that dictate things. Okay. So you're just kind of, you're another one who has natural light coming into the room. So that dictates your light cycle kind of, I mean, yeah, and I also got a couple little small skylights in my ceiling too, so they are always getting some sort of photo period that's pretty similar to what's going on outside where I'm at on a daily basis. Okay. That's good. And same question, we kind of put the thrill with that. Do you think that kind of taking an animal that's raised on supplements or UV and then selling it, do you think that would be kind of like misrepresenting the animal a little bit or do you think that's not going to be that much of a difference? You know, if you're going to see a difference, it's going to be down the road like six months to a year. And I think at that point, if anything, it's going to be really subtle. You know, say you raise a baby on supplements and he's under UV his whole life and that need, you know, hits a year and he's sold and then that person keeps him in a rack system. First of all, they're not going to see that animal 24/7 visit there and go, see, he looks like crap to the, I told you, but you know, they're only going to see him when they check on him, pull him out the tub and or take him outside or do things like that. And I don't know, I think with the way reptiles, bodies respond to changes in supplements and things, there's such a long lag time that it's very long and gradual and slow and minimal at best. So I think, you know, to go all the way and say misrepresentation, you know, you'd really have to have some pretty strong evidence, he's way me that way. If I sold an animal and somebody came back to me later, like this thing looks brown and gross and you sold it to me and it was, you know, neon green or something, you know. I'll entertain the idea and see how valid that is, but I can't imagine there's too much difference in there. So, I don't know, I'd be hard pressed to see too many experiences with people saying, you know, this is, this is not what I paid for or something like that. So I don't know, I don't think it'd be too much of a difference. Yeah, I would kind of agree with that one. So, all right, I guess we'll move to Steve. Same question to use, do you use any UV on your animals? I do. Okay. So, I like to use it on my adults, as I mentioned, I did see a difference with specifically my bread lie. Their color just looked more clean, I'm sure some of you guys have seen carpets where it almost looks like they have a darker haze over them, not necessarily muddiness in their color, but just kind of a dark haze. And that cleared up and their red became more vibrant and really just clean. And then as the bulb, you know, starts to die out, to kind of answer the other question about using UVB on babies and selling them, eventually you do see the difference, but it's really slow, as Riley, you know, touched on, it's going to be a long process and that's how I know it's time to change the bulb because I realize I've had the bulb for probably a year and a half and now the snake is kind of looking not so hot and I changed it and in a few months, exactly, it just goes back on and looks vibrant again. I don't think any of us are trying, I mean, with the people I talk to in the carpet community, any of us are trying to pull a fast one over the other. I think everybody's pretty solid, at least that I communicate with and I don't think anybody would try and make just a quick say, I'll make their animals look good and most of the time, the carpets are going to color up. So in six months, you know, when it's in their care, by that time, it should be coloring up just naturally without light and they should be pretty happy with it. Yeah, that is true. I mean, they do get brighter, they get bigger and for all you know, they could be complaining and then the animal can shed and then they won't complain anymore. Yep. Well, they're going to eventually complain regardless, right? Oh, yeah, oh, yeah. Well, something, why'd you get me addicted to this hobby? I know. Yeah. Damn you. I only have several of Eric's animals so that I can call him and complain in the middle of the night. So, you know, yeah. Okay. Perfect. Eric. Lighting, UVB. I don't know. I don't know if UVB matters or it don't. I think with diamond pythons, it might have a very important and I have heard that and I do follow that. I don't know with other carpets if they do or they don't. You know, the thing of it is that I think what's more important than maybe UVB is a light cycle. I think that I think especially what I find in the carpet community is that's something that's often overlooked because I don't think that it may necessarily be something that's a necessity, but I do believe, like you've heard me say before, there's a checklist of five or six different things. In order to be successful with breeding carpets, I think you have to have at least three or four of them checked off in order to get the eggs. Yeah. Yeah. And it can be, it can be any three, but those, you know, you can't just do what like, for instance, you just can't drop temps and you're going to be successful. You know, it has to be a little more than that, I think. And sometimes I think that we don't even realize things that is happening in our rooms that we think that we're not controlled. Like, for instance, I hear, I used to hear a lot of people, especially on the reptile radio days, they would talk about how they don't drop temps, you know, but their collection is in a basement. Well, guess what? You know, at nighttime, when it's 30 degrees outside, regardless of whether you drop the temps or not, the temps in the house are dropping down, you know? You may not think that you're dropping the temps, but the ambient temps are, yes, yes. I found that even when in my past, when I've had a space heater running and it runs at night, and even if I have it at the same temperature or a little more, it doesn't hold that ambient temperature. When I was doing the ambient temperature, whole gig, I had a hard time keeping the ambient temperature up at night, you know? I'd actually have to turn up the space heater in order to do that. So my feeling is, if you just let everything run as is, it's naturally going to drop. So anyway, back to lighting. I don't know. I think it's something that has been overlooked or forgotten. I think it's important. I think carpets and marrelia are really in tune to the sun, and I think that when you have animals that are in tune to the sun, it can't hurt them, you know? We were saying on the chat, you know, when the lights in my room go off, they're off. So if I have to go in there, I have a red torch lamp, you know, that you stick on your head and I go in there, and that's what I work with. But typically, I don't know if the lights are out, so... What's your light cycle at the time? Basically, in the summertime, it's like 12, 12. Now, I basically follow whatever is outside. So whatever's going on outside is kind of what I follow inside. You know, right now, what would you say we are? We're starting to creep back into the more light, but... Yeah, the sun comes up in my dark, 6.30. I think it sets at what, maybe like four o'clock, so that's kind of like what I'm running right now. Right. So... That's what... Okay. Yeah. For me, I've never used UV on any of my marrelia. I do use it in cages with, like right now, I have Nile mutters, and I'm using the UV with them. I toyed around with the idea of bringing UV bulbs into the blackface white lips, but I didn't do it, and we don't have any blackface anymore, so I haven't done anything with that yet. I could see where it could be useful for things like bolins, diamonds, and blackface white lips. The light cycle I have for my guys is unlike a lot of people, I don't have any windows in my snake room. So my snake room is completely what I choose it to be if I want it to be dark at noon, I can. So I have them on a strict 12, 12 all year round. So I pretty much use temperatures to produce something that's going on. Even then, even with no windows or anything like that, my guys still know when it's nighttime and they still know when a storm's coming, so you can't really fool them even if you think you can. And that's pretty much with me as far as whether or not something that's on supplements or UV being sold and then coming back at you, it's pretty much the same thing of I've had people who I take the time and set up the pictures and the lighting, and I take a really nice picture with my really nice camera of this really pretty baby snake and then I bring it to the show and a lot of people kind of, I've had people compliment the picture of the animal not knowing that the animal they're talking about is in the display in front of them. Like there's a disconnect, like they're expecting it to be like all bright and lit and shiny right there when like it's blue, it's going to shed in a day or two or something like that. So it sometimes is a disconnect and I wouldn't be concerned if somebody came back to me telling me that they were a little disappointed with the color because like with Stephen said they're going to grow, they'll shed and you can't please everybody, I guarantee you there's been people who have complained over crap like this and you've kind of got to see what you try to make them happy, if you can't make them happy you move on, so there you go. Alright are you next or is it me because it says my name but I just went so now you're going out of turn. Oh wow what the heck yeah I know I guess I'll go if you want me to go. I can go I'll go I like to go ahead I like this idea this is this is a little too me yeah I love this. Alright Tyrell, jag to jag pairings are you for them are you against them and also with the people are still doing them even though 25% of the clutch will become lethal white and die and 50% of them come out looking pretty but are quote unquote jagged. I love it when we can use this as a verb or something like that it's great and 25% are normal what are your thoughts on doing it will you do it Tyrell yeah I'm here are you going to do jag to jag. I don't have any projects currently that would require me to do jag to jag that may come across it sometime down the line depending on which where I go with certain projects but I don't have anything right now that would make me do that and as far as jagged animals go I don't have a problem with them I actually have a lot of the hold backs that I have for my area jag where clutch are beautiful animals so to me they're beautiful animals like I don't have any real need to sell them I don't I don't see a problem with having them so I always you know I always feel that way about them and there's people that just want a nice looking pet so then I'll have something for those people you know what I mean like it won't be let me just selling it to somebody just to sell it to somebody it'll be this going to this person and I'd like it I'd like to take a lot of pictures of animals so if I happen to come across it again and somebody has questions we'll know exactly where I am came from and what it is okay so the next part of the question is a lot of people tend to get all up in arms and upset about breeding jag to jag even though and because of the 25% that will be dead supers but it kind of like is in the same kind of thing of if you breed a pure jungle to a mutt like a coastal jungle you'll still get or coastal like say it's a pure jungle to a jungle jag you're still going to get 25% of clutch being those normal looking animals that a lot of people are totally okay with culling so how is that where you call those animals like feeding to a karibo or a monitor or cobra whatever blackhead how is that seen as not that bad when jag to jag is horrible you know I've asked that question too and I really don't have anybody anything against anybody that culled animals that's what I want to do that's fine that's not something I'm interested in doing this up to not something I could do being that you know if I bred these animals with the intent to get something out of it knowing that the percentages will be low then I feel like I'm also responsible for the ones that I wasn't aiming to get as well so I wouldn't just with intent just call them just because it's not what I was looking for like I'm taking the whole thing as a whole instead of I wanted this and the rest of you that's that's too bad okay I don't know why the two are looked at differently it's pretty much the exact same thing it's mindset that you want to put yourself in whether it's right or wrong to me either way I mean it's not a bad thing to do that's what you want to do but to me it just doesn't sit who I am and what I'm aiming to do so it's just not something I would be doing her interested in doing like say if I was going to pair a few eggs together I know what's going to happen when I do and those animals probably aren't going to survive the super that I come from that well I mean I have a kink snake that I don't eat them necessary but right but it's like only because I know that those animals aren't going to survive the the siblings of that are I'm still going to have around I'm not going to call those two just because they're sibs and people can mistake them for something else that can really happen with anything that you pair together you can have jungles that are jungle coastal that look pure jungle and you know you tell somebody that this is what this is and then you know they sell it to somebody then they sell somebody else well that information is gone now so it's just as irrelevant as having this said right right and that's and then it can be labeled anything okay not good I like those like I said this is always one of the top button topics and thank God you're not one of those people that's like maybe mine will live it's like no yeah no like I've read it what everybody's had to say about them you know I've seen what people have tried and the the scenarios that they put out well you know if I do this or if I you know cool them down to this maybe they'll survive it's like they're not the same thing it's the same no you think cut it open replaces dinners well alright make give that a shot but no yeah yeah so I mean I'll entertain what other people want to do with their own collections but it's just not something I'm interested in doing my own I got you all right Riley same question what do you feel about jag the jag would you ever do it would you not do it um and what do you feel about the kind of stigma between jag jag the jag versus culling animals you know I haven't done one thus far I don't have any plans in the foreseeable future of doing any that being said I wouldn't shy away from doing one if it achieved an goal in a project that I was really stoked on you know for me it's a matter of as long as you know what you're getting into and you're prepared to you know handle the results whether that be holding on animals that are just like too far whacked out to justify we put in another home without being super sure that the people know what they're getting into or you know feeding out animals that don't make it or animals that are you know suffering because of the deformity or you know just the fact that you're gonna get something that it might be there for a week and it's guaranteed to you know kick the bucket within a month as long as you go into it knowing what you're getting into and they're prepared to handle it but you know more power to you personally it's not my business what everybody else is gonna do it you know I don't like to see that puzzle solved sometime in the future so if we just shy away from that and avoid that you know nobody's pushing it and we might never ever figure it out so that being said you know go for it um the stigma of you know what's the difference between that and calling animals again same thing like if if you're prerogative is to not slowly the waters with you know a risk of somebody misrepresenting a mutt and selling it often completely throwing off some bloodlines and starting a chain reaction of misinformation and stuff then you know I respect that decision entirely as well too you know to some degree it's wise to try and maintain as much accurate information and share that as possible that means that once the animals are in you have no control over it so I personally probably wouldn't be able to just throw a 100% healthy animal in a freezer just because it's you know red light coastal ij Darwin you know and it just looks like a Picasso or something if it eats if it's healthy and and you know nothing's actually wrong with it I'll either keep her put the time in and effort into finding it home where I know somebody is gonna you know be aware of that fact I'm not gonna I don't know I just couldn't throw something healthy in the three years but you know if that's what somebody's gonna do that's what they're gonna do I can again it's none of my business um if I popped something out that was super whacked out but it wasn't live but I didn't think it was gonna survive. You know Terrell said he's got his uh king snakes I've got a cribo that that dude is pacing at the window all day every day but whatever he's buying oh he's hungry oh he I've learned I can't ever feed him barefoot because my feet are usually too close to him and they're warm and he goes to them first but I don't have food ready so I got quail wrapped mice whatever snakes lizards he'll eat it so um if I found myself in that position I have options to handle it I'll probably try and avoid it though but yeah if it gets me to where I want to go in certain projects then I'm not gonna let it stop me all right cool all right uh Steve same question so jag to jag parents um as Riley mentioned you know if people aren't doing them then we'll never get a super that survives and everybody says that there's never gonna be a super that survives but who knows um honestly it doing it it it it would probably be pretty cool to see you know a uh a loosey hatch out even though it doesn't make it and it's it's sad and and it sucks but it probably is pretty cool to see um that being said though when my opinion on this is you're intentionally breeding jag to jag and you know 25 percent is going to die um if you have a problem with colling I think it would be the same now if you're breeding jag to jag and you don't mind you know colling you're off spring then you're it's it's one in the same my problem is people who say you shouldn't call babies you shouldn't you should find them a good home whatever it may be but they're reading jag to jag and they have a problem colling when I think I find that one in the same um but I do agree with Riley in the sense that um you could find good homes for undesirables you know I have a couple buddies that'll take um free carpets that aren't really into them but they'll take a a free one that's mixed blood when I uh cross that path um but my issue with this topic is is somebody being against colling but willing to do jag to jag parents okay it's kind of like a little hypocritical you know you know 25 exactly it's going to die yeah so okay very cool uh eric how about you I know you get that blackhead sitting and waiting and ready for anything yeah I mean I've talked about this multiple times on the show I'm not against calling um the more and more that I breed the more and more I feel that um I don't know if that's necessary or not necessary I you know for me personally I have only cold animals that are you know not the healthiest, effective um you know ones that don't maybe necessarily eat that well you know I sort of hold off for a while with the eating type of thing I don't that's not a major thing of why I would call animals but on the flip side of that I think as a breeder I think there's a certain amount of responsibility that we have to take to you know if an animal is not eating well why do you want to you know what I mean like why do you want to cultivate that into a into a breeding group I mean you want the animals that come out and eat right away and and you know I think ultimately long term that makes for the best animal in captivity uh jag to jag pairing I'm not against it I have not done it I'm sure at some point in my frankenstein group of snakes I will have to approach it one of the things that I have noticed uh Mike Curtain brought this to my attention um it seems that when you breed ocelot jag to ocelot jag you get even a crazier you know whacked out patterns than you would with just breeding ocelot you know to say a jungle or something like that um so I think at some point that's going to be necessary for me uh as far as the they come out jaggier I don't believe that um I think that they either are or they or not I don't think that there's I don't think that it has anything to do with the being two jags as parents make it even more jags jaggier if that is a word yes well we'll make it one yeah um I've I did a pairing with a caramel jag to a caramel this past year and I have a couple carmels in there that are like bobbleheads um beautiful snakes but they don't eat like the matter it doesn't matter if the you know I've never had a jag where they're at standstill and the you know they're head wobbles like that now I've had jags that are just I mean like my albino jag is just straight up redonculus when it comes to it he's like slipping upside down and the quietest quietest thing going on he's good yeah I got yeah cork's doing like crazy exact same way yep um so you know like I said I'm not against jagg the jag I think sometimes that um you know that um it may be necessary I prefer to have my jags be males and the non-jags be females simply because it leaves me the option to do maternal incubation then I just think that you know uh I'd rather have a normal female you know or I should say a non-jag female do the maternal incubation then a jag female because some people have done it with success some people say that uh they're not good mothers I think it's just maybe an individual basis um but personally I just have geared by breeding projects and collections to go along those those lines um as far as the lucy thing uh man I I just I do not believe that there will ever be a living lucystic from a jag to jag I just it's it's a it's a thing that has to do with the lungs and the way that it develops and I don't think that anything is going to unlock that I think eventually there will be some type of lucystic carpet absolutely yeah yeah but I don't think it's going to come from a jag to a jag but that's just my different way not that's why you know I mean we've been doing it since how long you know and jag came out like what 2002 something like that yeah yeah here we are yes six 15 years later and I don't know if it's in countless readings from countless comments to countless yeah now granted not a lot of them have been jagged to jag I will say that but I just don't think that especially I think what opened my eyes to to really help slam that point home with the the whole jag thing is uh when the vet did the autopsy of the jag in Australia and he actually showed how the lungs were underdeveloped and you know that was the cause of death and all that you know so what about you for me I will have been against doing jag the jag forever because not from a thing of like oh I couldn't stand the but no none of that it's because I would rather get a living baby out of my animals than something that dies in the egg if my female is going to put all the nutrients and energy to make in this egg and carrying the egg and incubating the egg there better be something coming out of it I mean you know granted I have had a few babies that come out malformed or you know uh two-headed but if it's an egg I expected to be a critter coming out of it so to have to write off 25% of the clutch for no reason other than the fact that I couldn't find a single other animal to pair my jag with is it just stupid to me so I wouldn't do it um as far as culling I have no problem with it I've called numerous animals a lot of them were jags that came out of the egg and were just too far too messed up to do like to function uh I had one jag that would narrow so badly uh and it was constant narrow it couldn't actually slow there it would like roll places um and I threw that in with one of some Andrews mangrove monitors and they ate it up uh but then I've also had animals like I had one jag that was born with one eyeball um he had the second one but it was really tiny and it was all black so uh and he couldn't see out of it but he ate me functioned and I found a friend who was just looking for a pet snake and they took him and he's apparently doing fine he's not the size of any normal uh jaguar or male jaguar of his age but he's still kicking so um I could see doing that as well um but as far as you know culling for blood percentages um I could see people doing that I've no problem with people doing it I would never do it um I would always just tend to find a way to you know sell the babies uh somewhere else represented I mean if I took a box of mixed blood babies to uh some of my friends who I know a little bit of wholesalers they would take it and be happy and then if you went to one of the wholesalers and bought yourself a pure coastal um and then found out it wasn't well then what were you doing buying pure animals from the wholesaler you should be going to somebody else with lineage and all that stuff so you kind of you're in it for your own so that's where I would go uh I would not I would avoid jagged the jagged by keep finding it to be harder and harder to do with the animals that I have um right it's kind of like I I mean I didn't listen to you I have a super caramel uh jagged female and I'm like what am I gonna bring you with crap I have an examic jagged damn it so it's like I I want to do this pairing but it's like shit so I'm trying to figure out I got a normal examic male and I have a female super caramel it's not a jag so what I'm probably going to end up doing it is a few years down the road the examic jagged will go with the super caramel and the normal examic will go with the super caramel jagged we'll avoid the jagged jags we'll get what we want but it's like the best-looking super caramel is not going to go with the best looking examic which kills me because they're both jags so right I maybe I might be weak and end up doing it but I'm going to stick to my gun so far so okay cool all right well we have very limited time left on the uh show here we have yeah we have a whole bunch of time you want eight shit with the frickin gothic it's like yeah here jagged um so this is what I think we should hit on uh we're gonna hit on we're gonna uh we'll jump ahead um and I wanted people's thoughts let's see what time do we got 37 so we could probably hit this question or just thoughts on uh where's that uh the whole marketing thing and then what we got going on for the season um yeah and we won't so let me let me get this up I'll hit the marketing one and you can hit the going on in the season so great you got to get Terrell going on here and we'll get out okay Terrell um this is something that for me I've seen happen a lot and I'm curious on your guys thoughts on this and I think that it's uh I think that it's in a way it's kind of a good thing as far as marketing but at the same time I think it's a little bit misleading to a certain extent and it has to do with um the thought of when it comes to calling something a name that uh is from an animal in its lineage and what I mean by that is like I guess the perfect example would be gamma jack okay so my feeling is is that if you have a animal that came from a gamma animal you know that john bread at morality trophy club that animal is a gamma jack but once you start crossing that out to things it's probably at best what 25 percent gamma blood at that point so at what point do you stop using that as sort of a uh mine is better than yours type of thing I mean to to to one side of it I feel that yes it uh it does explain lineage but then to the other side of it it's you know how much of that lineage is in the animal what are your thoughts well when you get so say you take a gamma jack and you breed it to another you know jungle well you're you're kind of losing that moniker itself because now you're creating something of your own so you should probably stop calling it that you can say when you're selling it that you know this came from a gamma jack and then this other animal but calling it a gamma jack I feel is not lying or sliding the person you're selling it to but it's like you're you're riding on the coattails of somebody else's achievement yes like if I were to own a gamma jack and I put it to something else you would never hear me call it a gamma jack like well one of the parents was you know a animal from gamma and then so and so x and y put together this is what this animal is and now if I were going to call it a line and it wasn't just a one-off thing then I would give it a tone name I would use somebody else's name for my animal right yeah it makes sense okay I'm kind of an agreement with that and you know you also see it with iJ's with uh you know pc and you see it with madam blueberry and all those kind of things so from the aspect of it you know making your own thing I think people need to uh to think about that you know why yeah and a lot of a lot of times those animals have been removed from the equation for quite some time right you know you bred generations of your own distinct animals yet you're still calling it this because it's a name that people associated with but I would feel you know if you wanted to be end up in coming breeder like the top of what you're trying to do you would give it your own name like your own flair right instead of using somebody else's name for something right okay cool let's see what Riley thinks same question Riley uh you know what do you think of uh you know the whole naming it something that's you know animals back in the lineage um so I do have a gamma jag uh sibling so so don't hang me there i'm a sibling you know but um the dude is I mean he's amazing every time he sheds i'm i'm blown away but uh you know I think when it's it's coming kind of I guess so the best way to put it would be like one of the first generations from you know say at least a 50 percent gamma animal or something like that or it's got really close ties um representing offspring saying that it came from a high percentage gamma animal or you know if it's directly from the original uh the original animals and yeah I think that's all fine and good you know people like to know lineage and that I totally support lineage information but I can totally see exactly how putting such uh kind of a reputable title like that is almost like putting an animal up on a pedestal and and that can be very misrepresenting when you know that that Austrian question has a quarter of that animal blood into that bass something like that so you know like Tyrell said you can sell an animal or are represented that it has some uh lineage to it and if you can present the lineage then any potential buyer people just you know in in the conversation you can see that it's just a percentage it's not like an overall direct line but um you know I like to keep information just because I like to know where things came from um that then said I was very much against naming my animals just like random names I went by what they were where the lineage things like exactly calling it a gamma jag sibling and things like that but you know now that I'm getting into a point where I'm going to take these animals and I'm going to I guess for lack of a better way to put it further dilute away from those specific bloodlines if I were to breed in such a case um you know giving it a name it kind of reminds me of how like chondro people really like to uh remember certain breeding animals names and you know they remember the name and they keep track of that lineage so they know that it has those uh bloodlines in it but they're not you know under the oppression that's only that so I mean I think to a degree it's good to keep that information attached to animals when transferring ownership or you know just making note of that but yeah to a degree it's inaccurate in my opinion yeah yeah I would agree with you I think you got a you made some good points there about as far as the the lineage and such so cool what about you Steve what do you think same question I'm sorry I was I'm not going to why what's the question again I'm reading I was reading about the Apache super big no worries I'm listening oh no the gamma jack the gamma jack and bloodline because I was listening I'm a good multitasker I swear no no as as Tyrell you know mentioned um it it's kind of it's so many generations removed sometimes and you don't even know it because somebody's representing that animal with that bloodline um and in my opinion it kind of depends um you know Riley said he has a gamma I think gamma sibling not a jag and that thing is stunning if the animal produces you know great stuff um then it's still got those gamma genes clearly I mean gamma that whole line it's just I haven't seen a bad animal from it um so you're kind of saying you know the ingredients in there um I think the tough part like for me personally I'm constantly posting you know Nick Muddin bloodline Australian addiction whoever produced it um trying to mainly give them credit you know um I bought these animals from them they they worked hard and if you look they'll say who they got their animals from so it could all be traced back right I personally would love to produce a stunning clutch of animals um and say this is Steven Katz bloodliner spk reptiles bloodliner diablo bloodline and that stick but my concern is sounding in my opinion like a thief you know somebody else put this hard work in and and spent the money maybe or chose the right animal to pair it with and you're just wiping their name away um so I think it's important to represent how much what percentage of that bloodline is in there but don't you think to assert don't you think to a certain extent that you're taking that breeding project in a different direction yes in a lot of ways um the other reason to do it though is say somebody like you guys who who's into breeding and and want to keep track of bloodlines you're going to know oh I lost my train of thought um you're you're going to ask me where did I get my animals from so putting say a gamma line or Nick mud and bloodline you kind of already have an idea say I post an ad you know where these animals came from on the flip side somebody else who is this may be their first snake that's all over their head it's not going to mean anything so it's not going to be misrepresented to them at all and it's not going to mean anything to them at all so there's pros and cons with it um I think personally why I do it is I don't want to seem like I'm stealing the name or trying to this is this is cat's line you know stuff like that um and the other thing is because I'm posting a for sale ad and I know a lot of times people ask where did you get the adults from what's the background and you kind of already answer that in in the question but I do get I do get Tyrell's point on the blood being kind of washed out stuff like that and that being kind of misleading gotcha okay all right how about you Ellen what do you think uh I kind of feel like you're you're paying for the name when you're buying the snake but at their certain point you can't use it like if I bought a gamma jag and I bred it um the animals that I think would come next to I could probably get away with calling gamma jags but then after that it's like like when I start breeding the holdbacks and things like that you're now getting so far away from it that you have to move over to the gamma line or to the uh these are animals that came from gamma at some point like you can't start calling everything gamma jags you can just call them jags and then when people ask you oh yeah there's gamma in there it's a great grandmother or something like that and that's what you gotta stick with you can't just go out and call everything that's a gamma line of gamma but then you know we do that with certain other things like everything's an MBB jag um and when really they just should be from MBB line uh or red jack it just out goes what or red jack so um I have I have some thoughts on this oh god I'll get my pen yeah get to get the pen out for what this is why this is why I think lineage I I agree with Tyrell I think this is why lineage is so important okay so for instance when you buy a snake from me you're going to get a lineage and I have not bred my um uh diamond jungle jag from the you know gamma jag whatever you want to call it um I have not bred him yet but if I did breed him and I bred it to whatever uh I would not call that a gamma jag because I believe that the animal is now diluted uh it's no longer a gamma jag it is a diamond jungle jag and it does have lineage back to you know a gamma animal um but that's why I do lineage charts so you can actually see that I don't have to say that in my name so to speak um but I have been guilty of that um yeah because when you're putting something up uh you know I use pc for ij's you know right I don't know for me personally I think when you take a breeding project like for instance I have a lot of all higher stuff I have a lot of nick mutton stuff I have Australian addiction all that stuff I'm all for giving this guy credit but my breeding projects may not necessarily be what those guys breeding projects so I've sort of taken that and I've sort of steered it in a different direction made it your own yeah you know what I mean so um they're gonna get credit in the lineage um but I want to sort of be the I don't want to do what nick mutton does you know because I don't want to be another nick mutton because if you're gonna have a choice between buying a snake from nick mutton or the nick mutton copycat who are you gonna buy from you're gonna buy one of the next mutton yeah exactly I mean we used to see that with Jason bailin you'd go to all of our shows and whatnot you would see these people you know selling carpets that basically are a mirror image of what Jason's doing and you know it's kind of like okay well am I gonna buy from you or am I gonna buy from him I'm gonna buy from him you know if I want the kicker is is that well the kicker is that all all our stuff that looks like bailin stuff because we bought animals from bailin so it's like yeah so you're too ahead of us yeah so it's like yeah no and you have animals from the same clutches that uh you know yeah it's going in a different way than what I'm going with and and that's a good thing yeah I think I think so I think it is important though to know you know the information behind the animal for instance I guess if I post it up I post up something and people say what is that okay this is where it came from this is who bred it this is the animal I think the important thing and this is where I suck at and I think you're really good at is naming animals because I think when you name them they sort of become real if that makes sense you know I mean make my it's not because it just makes my life so much easier because now I don't it's like I need to know the backstory on aurora I know the backstory on aurora and it's like I don't need to sit here and think about oh it's my leery m pen like leery jag my MBV leery jag it's like I just need to know what made her so and that's why it's and it's so much easier to do that excuse me with the lineage because then it's like name of animal what the hell made him this gone moving on yes yeah so I think that that's uh that's important at least for me I don't know and and to a certain extent that is sort of like a like gimmicky thing I get it but at the same time I think it makes it easier for somebody to recognize a certain look you know like pooies and ivy everybody knows pooies and ivy but not everybody knows other animals in my collection so it made me think like okay well everybody knows this snake why because you know what I mean I don't say this is a jake mill rat ij you know yeah pooies and ivy so that's kind of my thoughts on that so real quick we have five minutes we may get cut off we may not we're going to run through uh let these guys throw out some plugs and what they're excited about in the season yeah hopefully we can squeeze them all through all right go all right talk quick corral plug yourself and what are you excited about this season well designer dot x pretty much on everything our main website designer dot x dot net well we have working on this season um we have our albino albino jag uh scene lost from that so excited about that and our ij to ij jags and try for ij jags again this year last year we only got one so we're going to try for more this year oh that's pretty much it for more than one good job all right yeah i'm going for more than one yeah eric and then after doing one i did too that was funny so all right thank you two else once we won uh riley plug yourself and what are you excited about this season uh i just yeah i'm not super creative with my name uh so i just kind of go by riley's reptiles and all my social media instagram facebook stuff like that it's pretty easy to uh remember who you're talking to in in that respect uh this year just doing uh two two carpet pairs um got a tiger jag female work a lot of tiger info it's a really reduced and uh throwing some more tiger in there like i said earlier i'm a sucker for some stripes so i probably want to strip out that pattern and i want to push the limit with that and then uh kind of last night i decided to do a jungle pairing this year thanks to Todd and um got a a stripe nail to go with this female who's hinting at some stripes in her pattern so i want to see what i can pull out of that and then yeah i'm uh i don't know calling crazy but i'm trying some boas this year too with some rainbow boas so that's what i'm going to yeah i don't know what i know but i've got a female that's nearly uh nearly five kilos so if it works out it's going to be a lot yeah all right so that's very cool very cool all right uh steven what about you uh here at sbk reptiles i'm pretty stoked for my jag to breadly pairing just kidding um um give me a heart attack i'll fill off my chair no never sorry uh the the pairing i'm most excited for is uh my diablo uh to pretzel uh that is his first generation offspring with me um and you know if i could prove out um anything being genetic with his dark color uh so that's that's what i'm most excited for i'm also excited because uh she was you know one of the first clutches that i produced so she's now breeding size so kind of stoked about that um i'm also doing a zebra to zebra pairing um and excited to produce super zebra as if all goes well nice hopefully with nice straight tails i'm going to do a ij jag pairing and a jungle jag pairing and another the last one that i'm most excited for um was gonna post this online but i guess i'll tell you guys now is my 575 gram male asantic carpet python locked up with my granite female oh hopefully i get uh a good healthy clutch of double hats nice very nice cool very cool all right that's it all right all right man i i guess we'll thank all the guys for coming on to the round table especially on such short notice and saving eric in mind collective ass from talking to each other for the entire time so yeah thank you guys for coming on and uh we're gonna have you guys all back for round two because eric came up with way too much stuff to fit into just one round so yeah okay we'll announce that well overachiever so yeah we'll announce that when we get that down the road but very cool okay um next week we had Brad waffa he's joining us from waffa house reptiles uh should be a good show um i think i'm trying to base we're going to talk about a subject that um i got it cleared us with brad but hopefully this will be cool we're going to talk about mites uh you dare speak their name i think it's an important topic and i think that i've never heard a podcast talk in detail about it and i think it would be a good episode i know a lot of people question it a lot of people are afraid to talk about it uh so i think that that's something we're definitely going to have to go to uh brad is a vet uh he was on gtp keep a radio did a great job we're also squeezing some of uh conjure talk and i know he works with angolin pythons so i'd like to hear his experiences with those uh okay so that's next week um and then you know just check out the website ready pythonsradio.com shout out to carpet python discussions uh you can go over i'll put the links up definitely go over check out the group if you want to learn about carpet pythons it's a very cool place go ask questions uh anything the guys That's a real good over there, and...