Morelia Python Radio

2015 holiday show

In this episode, the last episode of the year, we will be hanging out and closing out another awesome year of Morelia Python Radio. Thanks to all of the guests that made this another awesome year and thanks to all of you, for tuning in every week and spending some time with us. We will be back on 01/05/16 for another awesome year of geeking out about reptiles!

Duration:: 2h 16m
Broadcast on:: 16 Dec 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown here, you may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, when I was a reptile breeder and their owner of Projak. I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markham and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. 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Shipyourreptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipyourreptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. The materials needed to ship your reptile successfully, live customer support, and our live on time arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect petal breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship an animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello, Ellen. [Laughter] Hey, everybody. The fingers are on fire. That's right. We do that intro every year. We do that every holiday show. We do that intro. Yeah. You can't help yourself. And like a guitarist, the jingle bells, and come on. Yeah. In your world, we can target everything. That's right. [Laughter] Everything is a guitarist of some type. That's right. Yeah. Here we are, the last show of the year. Yeah. Episode 227. Jesus. 227. Yeah. Tonight, we're just going to be hanging out. And catching up. Yeah. Yeah. All the shenanigans take place tonight of any type. If I didn't have to work tomorrow, I'd be hammered. Yeah. Well, I'm going to indulge in some some night. Oh, you know, you're going to be hammered at you. It's okay. Yeah. I don't have work till nine. So that to me, that's okay. And you are the boss. So that's true. I can deal with you. So. Yeah. We, yeah. We're just going to be. Yeah. You're pretty lucky. You can just come in, right? We're just going to be hanging out talking about Marilla. There's a couple of things that have popped up that we should hit on. So various topics of sorts. And if you're listening live, you can join us over in the chat room. And if you are not on the NPR chat send us a request, then we can add you on in there. But yeah, what the shenanigans commence. So how's it going with you, Owen? Oh, we're doing fine. We're just doing over here. It's like, it's weird because we started the season and everybody's together and everybody's breathing. And then it turned 72 degrees outside. And they're staring at each other. And then they're like staring at me like, what do we do now? So it's like everything stops, everything stops. They're all like, and I'm losing my freaking mind. Of course, I keep having to remind myself, it's just December. So, you know, if you're out there and you're breathing and your guys are kind of pump the brakes, just crazy weather we've been having in the North East, calm down, give a time. It is only December and the temps will drop back down. But it is definitely pissing me off because, you know, we were rocking and rolling. I was getting lost from a bunch of animals and now they're quick eat. It's like, Oh, great. Yeah, it's one of my questions tonight was what's just that topic. Hold on. I'm telling everybody that we are opening up the phone lines. The call in number is three, four, seven, two, one, five, seven, three, five, nine. So yeah, if you want to come along. I'm waiting for Owen to like talk about what's his name, Shwetty Balls or something like that. What's that guy's name on Saturday? No one's done the book by Shwetty Balls. I love that. All right. You got to do a completely monotone. Like you have no idea what's happening. Yeah, you just got to do it like that. I like he's he's one can resist my Shwetty Balls. You find out you get a Shwetty Ball sick. So anyway, yeah. So one of the things that I wanted to bring up because this happened to me, what do you do? What happens to the breeding season if you have a spiking heat during the day? Do you think that that affects the so. Yeah. So I typically put the heater on in the in the daytime before I leave for work. And it's on a thermostat. And well, it got 72 degrees outside. And yeah, it was kind of kind of a crazy crazy day. Normally around this time, what is the hottest your room will get? Ambient temp. Ambient temp for the day. Probably I would say maybe 83 would be the hot. You're exactly where I'm at. Now, do you have the hotspots that click on it off to or no? Yes. So if my hotspots are set at like 80, I think 86. Right. And then at night, the hotspot turn off down and the end being in the room turns off. Exactly. So you dip down at this point, you know, during the day, my room is 83. My hotspots are getting like 84, 85. But then at nighttime, they're supposed to be dipping down into like the high 70s, let's say 76, 77. But it's not happening. I went downstairs, all my systems clicked over to be like, okay, we're only supposed to let the cage get to 88. So they stopped putting heat, power to the heat panels. But the cases themselves were only at 80 degrees. Like they could not drop down any further, but the room itself was 80 degrees because we're partially underground and the temperature outside was 72, 73. So it's like crap. It doesn't mean that the entire season's shot. It just might mean that we're all going to have a really, really late season, which is totally fine. Because yeah, this starts getting into January, February, we're going to hit the temps of like 30s and 20s, we have to. Well, yeah, wait, the lowest my room has gotten so far was this season has been 71. I haven't gotten down that low. I can't, I'm fighting down that low. So. Yeah, the, um, I just got worried because this room ambient temperature spiked up to like 87, I think it was. Obviously the hotspots were, they turned off because the was 87. And luckily, my wife is off during the winter. So she was home and, you know, she, I get her to go in there and check it. And I have like a bomb that's in the room. She kind of looked at it. She said, I think this is too high. Sent me a text message. And I told her, turn off the heat immediately. Season assist all heating operations. So I'm just one. I'm worried that, um, you know, I guess my question is, and I really don't know the answer to this is like, um, and maybe you would know is that do you find that that happens to the females reabsorb follicles? Does the, the, uh, the season shut like the nails sperm die off or? I mean, typically, I would think that they, like, I've always thought like my approach to breeding is is that you want to keep the temperatures the same during the day. The nighttime is where the temperature, um, you know, drops, and you want the drop and that, and you know, that, that kind of steers you clear of our eyes as long as the animal is able to warm back up during the day, you know, you could probably get as low as, well, this is with carpets. Um, you could probably get down there for a little while down in the 50s. What do you think? You could, you could have like a day or two down in the 60s and 50s or one night and then spike it back up as long as you have the spike back up. I mean, I'm dropping my bridles down to 65 at night and popping them right back up because they're in a side room and that's hard for them to get them down to that cold at night too, but a little easier over there. So, right, there have been a few nights where, um, I'm waiting for the temperature outside to cooperate. Once you get down low enough, I'm probably just going to shut off all heat in the room for one night or two nights and then to get everything back down. But you're right. Your stuff that can happen is, yeah, you can kill male sperm, you can have a reabsorbed follicles, you can all end up having a bunch of slug clutches. These are all things that could happen and you're probably going to have one or two girls that it does happen too. Um, but most of the other ones, you got to think about it. Like you've seen, I've seen like one or two locks out of two of my pairs, consistently, and everybody else is still kind of feeling each other out. So, we haven't even gotten that far with certain other animals. So, now if we were in like, I don't know, early February and it spiked up into the 80s, I'd say we were totally screwed. Everything's screwed. So, you think so? I, uh, because at that point in February, you've gone through two months of cool down, you've done this, you've done that. I mean, I know some people that aren't even really taking it too seriously with the cool down until after Christmas. So, I mean, we're kind of still in the beginning phases here. So, if we hit a few rocky bumps when it comes to temperature, it's not going to be that bad. Does that mean that next year I may end up starting my season later because I don't want to run into this issue again? Probably. But, yeah, again, it just probably ended up having a later season. Like, everybody's going to start having eggs in July and August or June. So, um, I know, my experience says, um, with breeding, um, when I don't get the temperatures down low enough, I do not have success. I see locks. I agree. Uh, see all kinds of activity, but I did never had females go the distance when I did not get below or at 70 degrees. Yep. Yeah, so that's my target spot, but it's, you know, it is dropping down here at night. Now, for anybody that doesn't know we're out on the east coast, we're up in the north east. Um, so, you know, I would imagine that this is the kind of temperatures though that are in Florida and they seem to be able to breed carpets down there, you know? So, yeah, I think, like I said, it's like, but it was a next weekend, it's going to dip down into the 30s. So, it's like, where we're getting there, it's just, it's, it's, we had a few weeks of warm that before we started getting into the cold and we're going to get down there. So, you know, it's, you're right, we're going to get down to the 70 degrees at night. Um, it just might not be until January, February. So, you might have one girl that gets totally cocked up by this or you might have no problems. Now, I find, I know, I find with IJs that you have to be at the, you have to approach that from, they have to be early. They don't need quite a drastic drop. Um, yeah, they need just like a, a smooth breeze in the air. You could probably blow on them and they would, they would breed. Why would my granite male breed with the jag I put him in right now with? Because IJs don't like you, apparently not. You, you bad mouth them too much. I do. Yeah. I'd slip them off every time I see them. Yeah. So, this is true. So, start talking nice to them, Owen and me. No. Start with these babies and I'll be nice to you. As the coastal, I love them. They make babies. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, I guess I'm going to click, I have a caller three, five, two area code. I'm going to click them on and see who it is. Three, five, two. All right. Who's this? Maybe they're listening in. No, I think they're listening in. Yeah. Um, I think, uh, if you want to, I forget how it works. I think that if, uh, you call in and you want to get on the line, if you just push one, then it one. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be able to see that. Otherwise, it'll be in the host. Yeah. If you're just listening in. Wow. Oh, yes. Listen in. Yeah. All right. All right. All right. So, uh, so, yeah. Um, where's my, there's my spot. Um, okay. So the, uh, I find that, um, I don't know, I find that carpets. That's one of the things that I kind of like about carpets is the fact that, uh, you know, they can withstand those, uh, really cold temperatures. Um, right. Just kind of find that, uh, you know, sometimes I wander with other pythons that maybe, I don't know, I guess all pythons kind of fall into the same thing, but it just seems that carpets from where they're from, that's a lot more, um, seasonal, I guess. Yeah. Like, I, I find that, uh, you know, Indonesian stuff is maybe a little more sensitive to, uh, I completely agree with the Indonesian stuff being a little more sensitive. And I'm finding that some other things like the Dominican Republic are a little sensitive to that kind of crap too. So no love for the Dominican Republic. I hate those things so much. Oh, God. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Anyway, um, it's, it's, it's, it's different. And we've had this discussion. If I could go back in time, I would have nothing but red light in wind and diamonds. It's great. Nothing bad can happen. Yeah. Because I'm looking at my diamonds and it's like 70 degrees. They're like, we are so freaking hungry right now. You should be those. And like, I, oh, God, fantastic. So it's, is anyone like Brettles right now? They're like 60 degrees and it's like food. So I love it. Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. Um, later on in the show, um, I thought it would be cool. I don't know. Maybe this is not cool, but I thought it would be kind of neat. Um, I, I, I came across, um, this issue of the vivarium. And, uh, for those who don't know, the vivarium used to be the reptile magazine in the US before reptiles. Yeah. Yeah. This was kind of the, uh, which is actually kind of good. Um, I see that, um, like, uh, Herb Nation is, uh, very similar, um, yeah, to what, to what this is. Um, but anyway, there was an article in, in here and it was called, uh, the new Python and captivity from New Guinea, the New Guinea carpet Python. Um, and it was by Dave and Tracy. Yeah. It was by Dave and Tracy Barker and, um, I just thought it would be interesting to sort of have a flashback to, uh, to sort of, to sort of see what Herpiculture was like in the 90s. And it also sort of hits the point of, like, you're told something is this when it's really that. Um, but, uh, it's just an interesting article and people may not have access to it. So I figured, why not read a little, it's, you know, it's not that long. And, uh, you know, I'll read it later on in the show. It talks about the, uh, Philadelphia Inquisition. Do you remember that, Allen? No, no, they too. I just, I think this is a holiday episode. I imagine you now in a very cold winged back chair and go to a fire about the story from the book and just like, you know, I'm all gathered around kid. That's right. Go on. You know, that's it. Um, I don't know if you had, this is on a side note, but I don't know if you ever saw it, but, uh, Christopher Walken reads the night before Christmas. Is your idea? Oh, I got this funny thing ever. Twice the night before Christmas. Yeah. Anyhow, um, a couple things. So now as we go into our breeding season, uh, like, uh, Australia, uh, our fellow breeders, uh, across the world, um, they're actually hatching eggs out. And we haven't really, uh, mentioned this on the past couple of shows simply because I wanted to give it its due process. And, uh, Silver Pepper Inlands, our good friend, uh, Darren Whitaker, um, he actually, um, proved it out to be recessive. Oh, they're gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. You've read, uh, Silver Pepper to Silver Pepper and got all Silver Peppers. Um, so you can go check that out on his Facebook page, uh, notes on Instagram and, uh, you know, a pile of ruffy babies. So wasn't that cool? I mean, yeah. Can you imagine just a pile of rock gels? He told me they're mine. I just have to go get them from, like, Australia. So that's when you drop them. They're mine. Yeah. That's why I need you. Yeah. I'm the mule. You're my best to go down a part time. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, um, yeah. So, uh, I listen to, he's supposed to come on the show at some point. Uh, I think, uh, last time I talked to him, it was over the summer. And basically he was saying that, uh, he wanted to go through this season and then, uh, you know, he would come on and chat with us. So at some point next year, we'll get it. But, uh, when I listened to him on, um, uh, reptile radio, Australia, some of the things that, uh, some points that he pointed out about that project was, um, he wasn't sure, um, if the parents were related or not, but the zoom that they were, um, he bought them as a pair, um, but they were very different. Um, the father had a lot of reds and browns and the mother did not. So it's kind of, uh, it's kind of assumed that, uh, oh no, NPR won't load. That's a failure. That's a failure to communicate, Owen. That's, uh, yeah. But, uh, we are not technical at all, so we can't help you. So sorry. Um, yeah, he, uh, he bred them together and now pop. Can you imagine what it was like to, to, to breed two inlands together and have that thing pop out? You imagine how, well, I'm not, I didn't, I told, I, I already told you, I panic. I'd be like, this thing can't stay with me. I'll kill it. Like this will be the one animal in my collection that like, it's a lot somehow overheated and murdered just like, oh, your guy. No, I wouldn't want to, that's way too much fricking pressure, dude. Oh my God, look, a brand new business. Now I must make sure it lives to breed with others. Oh, hell no, I'm calling Nick. This thing is going right up to him. So, yeah, send it out. Uh, uh, I'm trying to get to somebody's way better than I am. So, I'll maybe send it to them. No, the, the silver peppered inlands, um, for those people that don't know is a, is a morph that was, um, was found down, well, it wasn't found. It was produced down in Australia. And basically it sort of looks like a, I guess it's similar to like a granite carpet. A really reduced granite because it doesn't have the pattern of a granite. It just has like these flecks. Yeah, so it's almost like better. Yes, it's like granite, but better. Oh, yeah. It's almost like, cause the reduction you have is almost like you see in a heavily patterned like granite or deeper jack. So, yeah, it's kind of like that. So, but a little bit busier of a pattern. So it's somewhere in between a granite and a granite jack, but they look awesome. They're gorgeous animals. And I really hope that somehow they migrate from Australia. I'm just saying. I, I don't know what you're talking about. There's a pit that leads from Australia to Europe. All right. Do you think it's like a well pit? Is it a well or a pit? Well, I mean, it's got to, I imagine they put stones around it. But I mean, like there's, I assume that we had to figure out where the hell this pit went. So, you know, we kept dropping tennis balls. So someone in Europe dropped one back. So now we know where it goes. Everyone's a well, an animal falls into it and appears somehow they're only more of some carpet fight on and the creatures, but just the natural currents. Exactly. But everyone's allowed one, some dude dropping the pit over in Europe, like zebras and tigers somehow go that way. And yeah, so it's like, you know, it's okay. So, I'm saying if Darren just goes over to the pit and drops a few and, you know, then I'll appear in Europe and still somehow get to us. It's fine. Right. Yeah. Well, one can dream. Hopefully, one deck of hope. Yeah. Yeah. That, that's hands down my favorite, uh, favorite morph, um, of carpet fight on. So, yeah. Um, and, uh, I don't know, I don't know if you follow this on, but I'm a big fan of the, uh, the K brothers. Um, you know, Troy was on the show and, uh, he went to visit, uh, our past guest, Wayne Larks from Morelia Magic and they did a two-part show and I've been mean to hitting on this, but he actually produced moon glows. Have you seen? No. No. No. Oh, no, I don't wish. And then, um, yeah. Uh, let me see. I'll link it over in the, uh, the chat room. Um, let's see if I can pull up. Wait, the reason I have a xanics is because, um, I was talking to you about getting a xanics and you just sent me a picture of all the way to the ghost and you said, like that, but not as good. And I'm like, must have, must do, must make a caramel with xanics. So it's like, done. And then it goes, jags were phenomenal. And now you're talking moon glows. No. Yeah. He, um, he, he has a different line of, um, let's see. He has a different line of, xanics than what we're working with. Exactly. But now when you and I have had this conversation for, and I mean, it's interesting that I've had the conversation before. Interesting. Um, boy, would you call what we can produce here in the state's a ghost? Or would you stick with being a super caramel xanic? Um, uh, I don't know. Sorry about that. I'm pulling it up. I'm playing music at the same time. No, no, no, no, no. I'm pulling up the video so I can post it over in the, uh, right. Okay. I got it. But would you just call it that because eventually true hypos, some of them are apparently already over here in the state. So eventually we're going to have hypo spread to xanics. And that would be ghost. But then what the hell do we call what we're making now? I think it, I think, I think it would be the same thing. I think it would just be different lines. You know, but you had a true hypo. I mean, if you, I know, but if you look at like, um, I don't know, if you use ball pythons as an example, right? They have like, there's three different lines of xanic in ball pythons. There's, yeah, there's caramel, there's hypo, there's, you know, there's all different. I mean, what happens if I take a, uh, hypo's recessive, correct? Hypo in what? In proposals? No, no, no, no, it's a complete. All right. Thank you. I don't want to, I don't want to space on that, but it's like, what if I don't want to, somebody starts mixing super caramels and hypo's just to get to the ghost stuff? I mean, what the hell is that going to do? I kind of, I kind of think that maybe caramel, hypo, and red are. All right. I agree. Similar to what you see in, like, um, you know how like in ball pythons, they have like a complex. So there's like, you know, I don't know. No, I don't know. Okay. So they have like, they have like a butter and a lesser, which are kind of the same thing, you know, they're a little bit different, but they're kind of look the same. Um, you have that with fire fire. Well, yeah. Ultimately, if you breed, if you breed, um, a butter, a caramel headache to a butter. I think that you would produce, you're not going to know which is caramel and which is hypo, I don't think. I don't think so either. But I think ultimately that, yeah, but ultimately that snake is going to look like a ghost. Some are going to look better than others. So you're just going to say that everything here is a ghost or, or you're not going to be able to tell which is a caramel exam, which is a hypo exam. They're just going to be everybody's ghost. Uh, I think you'll be able to tell to, I mean, look, look at what you're seeing now. If you have, you have ghosts that were produced in Europe and you have ghosts that were produced in Australia. Yes. They don't look the same. No, they're not. Now, is that the or is that the hypo? I think it's the hypo. Well, I think the exam plays into it too, but agreed. You know, what are you going to do when you do, like, okay, for instance, if you have examic IJ and examic coastal and you breed it together, they never touch each other. No, no, no. Why would you do that? They, they are compatible, but I'm each other. But if you want to produce an examic, you know, actually I find, and this is my opinion, I just think that the IJ examic is nicer than the coastal examic. I think because of the colors that the IJ normally has, makes the Danic version prettier. So if you're crossing morphs and such, and you're crossing them anyway, why wouldn't you use the stronger gene? Because it's ultimately you want to produce what? I'm just saying, if you're going to make an examic morph out of an IJ, like say, I want examic granite, but I hope you'll choose the examic IJ. Yeah, but you're talking in there, you're talking about, you're talking, I'm talking about like, a ghost granite jag. Ah, shit. All right. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So like, yeah, if you're going to produce a ghost granite jag, man, that's gonna be freaking cool. No, no, no, oh, no, stop it. Ghost granite jag. Anyway, I think that, I think that, I think that Hypo will probably prove to be the nicest. I agreed. I think that, and again, I'm just basing off what I've seen in Australia, but like, they're caramel, like they're red, like that hypoish type of stuff, I think better than what we have. I think that there's very people who have selectively bred caramel, and even reds for that matter. And I know it's still sort of maybe an entity over here, but I think that, I don't know, I think I just think that that that Hypo is nicer. Maybe because it's really, I mean, you can have some caramels that still have a lot of black. Yes, you can. I mean, it's still a caramel, but you know, and even, even super caramels develop a ton of black as they get older. I mean, they, yeah, we're really nice, caramel-y color and bright yellow, but they start getting a lot of black, especially down towards the tails. So, about like midsection down, you know, I worked where Wayne's Hypo is some of the stuff he has, it's like there's no black from it at all, ever, like that animal. So, well, the cool thing about his moon glow, I think is sort of, when you watch the video, he sort of says this, it's that it's an examic albino, so it's all those, so it's 4g. Everything, it's a trash cookie, but the cool thing is, is it's a patternless white snake. And we finally have it now. Can we please stop reading Jack the Jack? So, well, we're going to hit on that tonight, Jack the Jack. God damn it! Yes, we will. And Jack the Jack. We know what that you would get it, pop it. Yeah. So, well, you would say a patternless white snake, or is that because it's a hashling carpet python, will the pattern come in? Or will the colors change a little bit? I don't know, we've seen with the snow, with the snow, you... Got some pink and something, right? Yeah, you do see pattern come in from what I've seen and what I've been told. But I think maybe with the moon glow, that might maybe dull it out. Maybe you'll see it as it ages, I'm not sure. Maybe you'll see some silvery, kind of. I mean, like a lot of, a lot of elbinos, when I see when they're born, they're like, or when they're young, they're like white with a little bit of yellow, and that's it. And then as they get older, it's like a lot of the yellow parts turn white and you know, they start getting like orange and yellow and it's like, they really start progressing as they get older. So, you might start seeing that, especially with now that there's multiple genes mixed in there. For all I know, he can pull the scope open tomorrow and it can be purple. So, who the hell knows? Yeah, and then the other thing that I thought it was cool that he hatched out was he had this pairing, it was an albino head axanic, to an albino head axanic. No, albino head axanic to an albino axanic. He hatched out a snake that looked normal, but it's got axanic patches through it. Oh, Tamara. Yeah, that's kind of, kind of what he was thinking, but it's just really, it's just really cool looking snake, man. That is cool. It seems like this year has been the year of the Chimera, it just pops up all over the place. Everywhere. And I love it because there's always that one person, when it pops up, that it instantly just goes the other direction, and then everybody like jumps all over him. It's like, it's a pine carpet. No, and like everyone's like bashing him and it's like Jesus. It's okay, not everybody knows. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. I think, I don't know what this number is, but we do have another caller here. What's the number? 011614. Oh, man. It's no. We're going to click it on and see how it is. Hello. Hello. Good. Hey, it's a sky. Yeah, it's a sky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any Christmas guys? Same to you. How come to the day with the moment? Because at the moment, I'm going to go ahead and talk about the night because it's 26, 27 degrees and that could be a song. Oh, wow. Yeah. There's a, there's a hurricane coming through there, right? Or tornado, right? Oh, I don't know. That's just to make a little thing move and hit up your eye. Yeah. These things are character building. You got to get out there and go like that. Anyway. It makes for a good story. Yeah. I just thought I'd give you a call and just say, good luck so far this year for next year. I'm looking forward to saying a bit of a change and saying more things besides carp. It's just like, only, but mainly a carp of focus. So, it's good what you guys are doing. And, you know, there's quite a few of us down here that are listening to these up there in the in the cold part of the world. Well, we appreciate that, man. Thank you. We appreciate that. Yeah. What do you, what are you hoping for tonight? What do you, uh, I'm not quite sure yet. I'm not even sure what I'm going to go after in particular, but we'll get some new fighters with some death hatters and a few other bits and places. So, I'll probably go outside some death hatters and, and that sort of thing. But I'll probably come across a few carpets and I'll refer that by running around in pretty big numbers. I lost you guys. Cool. So, that means when we're going to wake up with a video tomorrow and get you the carpets. That wouldn't have told you that. What would I do? I think you guys' video to steer you up. That doesn't sound like me at all. So, I'll just get all the damn time. Yeah. I did a little video yesterday for that blue tongue show, but I was going to put them up and then I found that you can only put 90 second videos up into messages. So, that kind of sucks. Look, I've got a few things that are about to drop. I'm looking at things swelling right up and, you know, I've got blokes blue tongues that are almost about to drop. I've got pink tongues about to drop. I've got lamb mallets about to drop. There's cutting ends about to drop. The skinks are about to go crazy here at the moment. And, um, so, so that's that. And then working pretty hard on this new reptile room and mine and, and getting that sort of finished off as well. So, um, I'm not, and then the weather's too good. So, the weather mine, I've got to go herping so everything else is back. So, you know, she's just, you know, shot. Right. That's okay. You know, as long as no one, no one tells the wall. So, I'll get away with it. It's all okay. It'll be fine. All right. Your secret's safe with that. So, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just tell all the listeners I've been doing right, you know, yeah. When did you go? When did you go ahead to be coming? Because we're going to organize times and things like that. Well, I think I was talking to Nick. And, uh, he sort of has, uh, I got to, I got to call him up because he had a date mind and, um, we got to, we got to straighten all that out. So, yeah, well, let us know. We can, let us know if we can organize some stuff at this end for you as well. So, we will be the first people to know. Then we can send Nick to go. I'll show you how you're shocked. Yeah, right. You've got a pair of you, the compass and all the rest of it to get you to kiss me off. I'll lay you off in the bush. So, yeah, that'll happen. That'll. Oh, and you'll be okay. Yeah. What's that? I said, I would resort to cannibalism quickly. So, you know, I'll be there at first. Yeah. Oh, well, that's probably going to be softer than the last person, anyway. Yeah. And, and, and, and keep enjoying it. And I'll keep listening and, and, um, you know, just keep doing what you're doing. It's fantastic. You really, really enjoyed any. All right. Thank God. I'll join you for a minimum style in the near future, right? Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I got to go with you. Get that, that matters. Yeah. Be here for sure, for sure. They're, they're all from called Snuggle Six, Daniel. Oh, that's Snuggle Six, you know, it's Snuggle Six. There's a, there's a little guy like he called touch the tile. We'll have to interview you to that one when you're Daniel as well. All right. That sounds like fun. No, no, no. Oh, hell, no. Good idea. All right. Thank God. Yeah. Fun. Uh, that's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. How did Owen die? Well, he went to go touch the tail of a death at her and just nailed the freaking forearm after. Not that part, Owen. No damage. No, Jesus. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We, it was all a fun trip until Owen and blackened and fell off. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not really sure. I saw on Facebook, um, speaking of our fellow Australian friends, um, I saw on Facebook, they had something similar to a carpet fest, I think. Um, Oh God. And they didn't call it like Australian carpet fest. I'm disappointed. No, I think maybe they had a party or something, but you know, I'm like clicking through these pictures and I'm like, wait a minute. That one, I know him. Wait a minute. I know her. Wait a minute. I know him. Wow. This is cool. And there's some kind of, some kind of get together, some sort, but, uh, yeah, it looked pretty cool. And a couple of people had carpet fest shirts on, so I was like, Oh, man, let's do this. You know, a little, uh, a little Australian carpet fest. And I would have been so happy. Yeah. Let me down, guys. So, um, we were talking a minute ago about, uh, jagged to jag, um, pairings. And I don't know. What are the pros and cons of doing a jagged to jagged pair? What's your thoughts on jagged to jagged? Would you do it first of all? Oh, I think I lost that one. What the heck happened to him? Hey, you're balin on me. I say jagged to jagged and you hang up. That's great. Jagged to jagged click. Jagged to jagged click. I don't want to speak about this anymore. Yeah. So I think some of the, uh, some of the thoughts are that, well, obviously, if you, if you breed jagged to jagged, uh, some of the offspring offspring will be, um, dead leucistics. Very good. The thought for a while is that if you breed jagged to jagged, that somehow they're going to be more neurological. Um, you know, they're going to have more feedback survives will be more neurological and more epitope, right? Yeah. Now I have offspring from jagged to jagged, and I don't see that, but I think that varies just from jagged to jagged. That would be my thoughts. I don't know. What do you think I'm? Well, I think I've seen animals that have nothing to do with jagged to jagged or completely talked up. My fever jagged comes to mind where he just like, he'll eat upside down. And if he's like, even the tiniest bit stretch, like stressed out, he narrows. But then I've had other jags who have no problem who like, I don't really have any jagged to jagged, and I've never bred that jagged to jagged, but it's kind of getting harder and harder as I have more jagged than my collection to avoid doing jagged to jagged. So, um, but for the most part, it's, I think it's kind of like an animal by animal basis. So, you could have bad narrow in this animal regardless of who's parents were the same thing with that one. So, crap shoot. Okay, I have noticed in, like, I think Mike Curtin's Ocelot, it seems that when he bred, um, uh, jagged to jagged, he, the Ocelot was exaggerated. Um, yeah. Now, I don't know if that's from, from that or, you know, I don't know, but it was actually, uh, pretty cool, um, the results he had. And I think that the color, I mean, my thought would be that the color would intensify. Um, I mean, that would just be well, I mean, if you breed a really nice jungle to a really nice jungle, you're going to get really nice jungles. Um, but you're also going to get a few that are, like, you might get one or two that are in, like average. I mean, right. Yeah. I mean, you're not, not everybody's going to be stellar. So you're right. You might have one or you might have a few jags that are, like, really, really nice looking, but now you're playing your odds against yourself. Because now you have how many jags are really going to be nice looking out of the surviving Jack. So, yeah. Uh, I don't know. Um, you know, there were, well, there was a, basically there was a, uh, there was a topic that came up on Moralia Pick of the Week and, and they were, they were asking about it and they had a kind of a discussion about it. And I think one of the animals that, uh, Shadd posted up was actually from a jag to jag. And if you look at it, it's just, it's really, uh, a really, uh, stellar animal, shared over in the, uh, in the chat. Well, I'm not saying you won't have pretty animals. It's just, I find that I can make animals of an equal quality by not doing jag to jag. And I get the entire close to play with and nothing is dead. So, I like that better. I mean, I'm pretty sure I can do it that way. Um, I'm not saying that other people should not do jag to jag. That's entirely everybody else's decision, but I try to avoid it. So, yeah, I wonder how the, uh, outcome would come with the eggs. I mean, I wonder if the eggs would, uh, you know, if, if people are losing eggs. I mean, I read in some of the people's responses that, um, you know, uh, some people lost and some people didn't. Um, you know, it, I think that's an egg by egg basis and baby by baby basis. So, you're right. Some of them will just, the weak ones will just die out in the eggs. And those will probably be your supers. And then some will make it full term and die shortly after. So, yeah, some of them make full term and never get out of the egg. So, yeah. Uh, yeah, I was just reading some of the comments and see what they said. Um, I don't know. It's, uh, it's definitely something that the more, like you said, the more, I guess, breeding you do, um, the more that, uh, you know, those type of things might pop up. Um, yeah, you know, uh, yes. I don't know. I think, uh, I think, I think with the ocelot, I think that's something that really, like I said, kicks that gene up a notch. So, I think that if I ever did it, I think it would be along those lines. Um, I don't think I'll ever do it, unless I have to, unless I run into the situation where it's like, I have my examig, and the only female I can pair them with what I want to happen to be my super caramel jag. Damn it. I mean, that's the one I never do it, but I have super caramel and I have normal examics. So, I don't think it's going to happen. So, yeah. Yeah. The, uh, we do have another, uh, caller on the line. Um, there's a number of that. I feel that we need to, uh, set this up. How are we setting it up? What are you looking for? Because you're looking for something on your screen, like a quiet. I am. But the sound effect of some kind. But oh, it's not, it's not working. It's not working. No, it's not working. Ah, I'm sorry. Well, that ended poorly. That was, that didn't go well at all. Yeah, I was looking for, I think it is. So, yeah, it would be area code 484. Do you know who that is? Do you know? Do you know who could that be? I know who that could be. 484 area code. Who would that be? Yes. I know who the 484 area code is. That would be my father, Jim. It's like a visit from Santa Claus on a holiday. It's not like a visit to Santa Claus. There's no, there's no holiday show complete without a visit from Jim. Hi there. Boy, hello? Hey, yeah. How's it going? Do you have me? Do you have me? I'm at the North Pole. Do you have me? Everybody's giving me a shout out. Merry Christmas, gentlemen. Same to you. Yeah. Hey, lesson just in it. Just a quick heads up for my son. We need more dentists up here in the upper level, you know, because basically, when you guys went to Chicago, I figured out how to get the dog to do what I wanted him to do. I just keep feeding them dentists. How many did you give him tonight? Oh, he's, well, I think the case is gone. I don't know what happened. That would have been a great challenge. I don't even have to call him anymore. He just shows up. Yeah, of course. He's going to have to give to him anymore. Look, look, look, big game. Pavlov, the scientific Nobel Prize. All I'm doing is recruiting the experiment. I'm taking away Google. I swear to God, he's doing this after that. But what was Pavlov, is he rushing or check holes of ark? You know, what was up? I don't know. I'm not even going to get into it. No. Oh, come on. Man, you're the scientist. Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's going to leave one on the radio. Yeah, I'll play one of my statement on the radio. Yeah. I'm just throwing ideas out. You know what I mean? I'm just trying to tell you. It's going. Yeah, good job. You know, at my age, do you really want to chase the dog all the way across the yard? Are you kidding me? No, Dad, that would not have to go get both of you. So let's not do that. You know, as I sit here and listen to the two of you, I have a perfect idea for a new reality show. A new reality show would be this day in the life of the two of you and the reptile point of view. We would follow you to insurance. It's more important. You know, you know, we would do, you know what, it probably would work better. We would do better than the pawn shop guys. Good stuff. And again, I'm taking away history channel. I think, you know, it's kind of like, it's kind of like the time on the, what was it that the guys that owned the pawn shop? What tells the name of that show on? What is the name of that? Bonsars. Bonsars. Yeah. Bonsars, right? Bob Dylan shows up and Ellen's like, who's that? I'm like, are you kidding me? Not everyone has a love affair with Bob Dylan, okay? Really? Okay. That's right. Thank you to you. We get box sets of dillings showing up left and right. You have no idea who this guy is. I told you, I told you, and I said, thank you, not to play it at the office. It's okay. So we'll just get you through the day. But hey, listen, guys, you guys had a great year. I enjoyed everything. All of your radio shows, Carver Fest was great. You know, I'm sure you guys had some fun in Chicago, but I will never know anything about how we're going to get videos of owning a woman, just sending me a look of all their, you know, whatever. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. Go to sleep. You know, you and I have to talk about that. You know, Eric, put him over right now. Eric, by the way, I just want you to do it. And at Carver Fest, at Carver Fest, I've never saw a guy throw that much alcohol on his own carpet. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, it's my carpet, I can throw out the hole in there, whatever I can. He buys a house and he goes into like a media destruction boat. What is that all about? He was confused on what Carver Fest meant. He thought that. Exactly. Good point. That's the way to go. Yeah. Joe, I mean, you have a great Christmas. Have a great new year. I look forward to, you know, 2016. We'll go from there, all right? There we go. All right. Have a good one. How do you feel? Good old kid. You know, the fact that, you know, you and a bunch of people out there demand that he comes on and heckles me. Just tell me where I stand in the hierarchy. Oh, God. Yeah. It's quite entertaining. I'll tell you next year. Yeah, next year, it's going to be Jim and Tom. That's how it's going to go. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, you got to move because you're hosting it. Keep going. Yeah, I know. No, I mean, what I'm saying is that Jim and Tom, that Tom is my dad. Oh, that one episode. Yeah, that one episode for you and I. Oh, dear Lord. No, God, no, it'd be horrible. That's awesome. So one of the other things that I had on my topic is, I don't know if people saw it, but Nick Mutton did a, did a blog about a power outage that he had. And I think it's probably every Harper's worst nightmare is to have a power outage go out. And, you know, it's okay. I guess if you are down in Florida and the temperatures, maybe, we're not going to get that low. But typically here in the Northeast, if we're talking power outage during the winter, we're looking at what usually ice and, you know, sometimes days before the power gets put back on. And that kind of thing really makes you think about what precautions do you have in place to keep your reptile safe during such emergency. You know, that could be as simple as a generator. Do you pack them up? What do you do? I mean, I don't know. I really, I have a generator. It's about the extent of my preparation for such an event. But what about you? You have anything in place? Well, I do not have a generator because I, when I was in Jinkandown, my best friend's dad was one of the chiefs of the fire police. So, whenever I had a power outage, they had a bunch of generators that they could easily, that they used for, like, I guess, plugging in traffic lights and stuff like that. And then I had a certain amount for people who needed them. So, if I ever lost power, I was supposed to call him and he was supposed to give me, like, one of those little generators. Now, I moved up here. I do not have a generator, but I will be getting one. I do have, though, is a server repair battery pack. It's about the same size as an old tower or computer. And it is nothing but lithium ion batteries. And you plug it in and you charge it up. It takes a cold day for this thing to charge. Okay. And what you do is, is you plug it into the power source of a server and then you plug it into the wall. So, then if the power cuts out, this thing automatically clicks on and it runs the servers until the power comes back. It's got a complete 48-hour charge, I think, on it. Okay. And what I have, is that thing is charged, and it's plugged in. It's constantly just, like, you know, charged. And if I were to ever lose power, what I would have to do is I could put it in the middle of my room and I could run important things like the incubator and the baby rack and possibly all the other racks onto it until I can secure so I can get my generator or it can get something up and running. So, that's what I have there. Interesting. I also have a giant box of 72-hour e-tax that I would not, as they start ripping open and chucking into cages. So, yeah, that's another route that I went. I'm with you there. I have that. I have a whole bunch of, you know, styrofoam boxes and such. If that was needed. And a lot of people don't, because my, I don't know about you, but my water here is gas. So, even if I lose, like, power, I should be able to get, like, most of my, some of my hot water going. So, if you can fill up hot water, you can get hot water from any place. Even if you got to go down the street. Feeling of jugs with hot water were great as heaters for snakes. They can sit right on top. So, I didn't have, but the coffee's when they first got here. They arrived at my desk and I didn't have anything. So, I just filled up a Fuji bottle with hot water and sat on both on top of it. So, yeah, I guess that does make sense. Since, like, in my incubator, I have four gallons of water that, you know, heats up and, you know, just keeps the temperature a little even more even in the room. Yeah, I have heat as well, gas heat. So, you know, that is, you know, I guess it's not out of it. You know, even if, say, like, my, say the computer, say the power to seven computers and go down and all I have is this generator battery pack, all I got to do is wheel in an electric space here, plug it in and crank that thing up on high and leave everybody alone. Don't go in the room. Don't touch anything. Yeah. I think it's something that, yeah, I mean, or I'm just going to be in a ball, I'm chatting mall boxed up in my car driving to your house. So, you know, Eric, be safe until I can bring them back home. Yeah. Yeah, so. Yeah, I think, um, I don't know, I think that's something that a lot of people don't think about all too often as far as that, because I guess, you know, these kind of emergencies really don't happen all the time. So, you really, you know, not prepared. But I think that, you know, you should have some kind of plan in place for such, such events because you never know. I mean, I would much rather be safe than sorry and err on the side of, you know, spending, you know, what would it, I think it cost me like 400 bucks for the generator, which, you know, compared to the side, you know, the collection. That's, that's not, you know what I mean? Don't buy this. Go by a generator. Done. Yeah. It's no brainer. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. It's definitely something to, to think about. I guess, especially for us that, you know, we're up north, you know, you don't want to be caught with your pants down, so to speak, and badly, for sure. Yes, it will. Yeah. So, huh, okay. Um, did you ever, you've never experienced that then? Yep. Have you? I have. It was March a few years ago, and it wasn't due to cold or anything, but it was cold. It was still, it was early March. It was really cold outside, but a tree got knocked over during a windstorm, took out power lines on the street. So, the whole block went down, and I had this point, at this point in the room, it was close to 80 degrees just for the year. So, what I ended up doing was I pulled out the battery pack, and I had eggs in the incubator. So, I immediately plugged the incubator into the battery pack, and then, like I said, I just plugged in a space heater, and turned it all the way up, and then just left them alone. And then it took them two days to get everything packed up and running, and the power going. So, but that was probably the longest stretch I'd been without power. But once that space heater got up and running, there was no issues. It was like 90 degrees in the room. So, and then the incubator was run off the same electricity, so it was fine. But I almost called for the generator, and then actually it happened again before I moved out here. So, I remember waking up, and it was one of the white lips were in my bedroom, and I looked up at their computer systems and everything was dead. So, I ran downstairs to flip the fuses, and I realized the entire house was done. Andrew came over immediately with his generator, and by the time we got it hooked up, plugged in, and started, all the lights came back on. So, I was kind of really pissed off about that. But, it was good to have it in a pinch. So, gotcha. Yep, very cool. I forgot to throw this out there at the beginning of the show. I did call the people, and the calendars will be here 12, 18. Oh, that's uh... So, Friday. Yeah, Friday. As soon as they come, you'll be at Star Wars. Nice. I'll deal with this later. Yeah, you already have tickets to two set stars? I have tickets for Thursday night at 10.30. I'll be at the theater tomorrow night, and waiting. So, just if you've seen me pass me by. So, anyway, it's one of those. Nice. Well, yeah, I'm glad the calendars will be here. So, if you do want a calendar at the 18th, we'll put up a big announcement on the pick of the weekend, a few other places, get in contact with us, we'll get those rolling. If I have to, I can grab some for you if I have taken down to Tavader Grace on the 19th, because I'm going to go down there and grab some food and get rid of some boas, and 14 pieces of shit. I mean, not so. And if I got to do that, I can always bring calendars down for certain people down there. So, it's all good. So, let's see. So, we got the calendars and trying to think what else I got on my list here of things before. Wait. Pump it up. I think they're trying to get you over and over in the chat room. They don't need that. I can ignore those people easily. I was listening to a podcast, and actually, let me throw this out there first. If you guys have a chance, you should definitely listen to Gecko Nation radio podcast that they did this past week, because they had the lawyer, let me see if I can remember his name. He was from U.S. Ark, and basically, he was talking about, it's Richard Stanley. He's the lawyer from U.S. Ark. They did an awesome show that really kind of talked about the situation and what's going on, and that really, they feel quite positive about what they think is going to happen. Obviously, you can't be 100% sure in these things, but it's good to know that they feel confident in this situation, but it's definitely worth the listen, because they get into some details about the Lacy Act and how what they're using it for today is not really what it was meant for. It's actually pretty interesting. If you get a chance, you should definitely go over and check out that episode. It's well worth the listen. Definitely. I guess at some point, we probably guess they're going to have to have them on, so we can definitely support them, guys. I'll feel part of all of them. I was listening to so many podcasts. I can't remember which one this was on. I listened to some people in the way they talk about morphs and stuff. It seems to me that they think that at some point in reptile hobby or whatever you want to call it, that you sort of just bred snakes and then just gave them away. You never really made money at it, and it just really wasn't based around that thing. It seems to me, as of late, that the whole anti-morph thing has died off. What do you think? I don't know if it's just because I'm just out of touch with... I still think there are people who like to stand up there and talk about how they're so anti-morph, but I think they're just a really weird knitted scarf away from being a hipster, a reptile hipster. That is. That's the way it is. It's like, congratulations. What was that I said before? I was in the water fight, not before it was cool. It's like a big congratulations. Not everybody needs to be into morphs. Listen, I can appreciate a wild type animal. I can also appreciate a morph. I can appreciate a pure animal. I can also appreciate a mutt. Where I fall is just my personal preference. The morph game is definitely... You've got to be willing to spend the money. You've got to be willing to get into it. You've got to be willing to do it right. You also have to go at it with the sense of, at some point, somebody could decide that they just want out of it and totally destroy what you've sunk a bunch of money into. That can happen. But is it such a bad thing to actually pay for your hobby? I just don't understand, I guess. Yeah, it just seems odd that people down the idea that you are making money to pay for your hobby selling animals. The thing is, how many hobbies out there actually make you money? My dad's best, my dad's like first absolute hobby. If he's so into sports, it's ridiculous. He goes to games, like baseball games, hockey games, football games. Yes, he doesn't take it to Penn State, football, Penn State, hockey. He takes us out to pirate games, all of this stuff. They're not paying him to do this. Fending money. Like they said for a hobby, like, you know, and that's just what it is to most hobbies you pay for. That's what he does. You do it as an enjoyment. You know, say, say, enjoy hiking. Sometimes you've got to pay to go to different parks to go freaking hiking. So this is your hobby, this is your love. It shouldn't fucking matter how much money you make out of it. If selling some snakes can help me pay for rats and maybe buy me a cheeseburger on the way home from the show, I'm having a good fucking day. There you go. Thank you. And maybe help that I want to get into that doesn't, like, kill me. But, you know, if I were to take it down to the bare bones and only if I were to go back to where I was with just coastals, I would still breed. And I wouldn't give a rat sass about what was going, what was moving, what was going, like, you know, what price everything was moving at. And if I had a bunch of babies, maybe it'll breed that year. So it's like the morph game kind of really weeds out the people who are attempting to get as much bang for their dollar versus the people who really enjoy herp the culture. So it's just, it's a big cluster mess. But I do believe that the whole, like, it was an uprising, a stigma against morphs for a while about, like, no, you're just in it for the money if you breed more. So I think that has gone away because a lot of people that were screaming about that must have seen an animal that they thought was appealing and realized it was a morph and they were dirty, dirty hypocrites and shut the damn mouths. So that, it's like, okay, congratulations. Can I appreciate a diamond python? Yes. I love diamonds. Can I appreciate a reduced pattern diamond python? Uh-huh. So there you go. Yeah, I think, you know, I don't know, like I said, it could be that I just don't pay attention to those people anymore and don't really care. So I don't really hear it as much. But it just seems to me that it's kind of, I don't hear it as much that bell ringing that you're right. And in the sense of the morph market where certain animals are kind of like looked down upon because they don't have any morphs in them, a lot of those animals like are normal, like, one colored animals anyway. Like, there's no real pattern to them. It's like a lot of people look down on like, oh, water python, it's a brown snake with an orange belly. La da, no one cares. So now if that thing were to like grow, like pop out one with spots on it, everybody was kind of giving a little bit of attention. But even in the sense of like, look at savoos where they have their morph to silvers. But, and you and I talked about this, the point of a savoos is it's born orange and then it starts getting black. And eventually when it's like an adult, it's mostly black, like almost all black. And the silvers do the same exact thing. So what the hell am I paying for? It's going to look exactly like the other one. Yeah, I, yeah, that's kind of a, that's kind of a weird, yeah, I don't know how to answer that. I mean, I'm paying, I'm paying to watch it grow up and be silver for the first three years of its life were turned black. Well, wouldn't that be similar to what we saw with red in the beginning? I mean, do you have these animals that were born and they were red and they were beautiful and. But, but a sending color is different than changing how the genetic makeup of a snake's pattern progresses over its lifetime. They start out patternless, then they get all that funky speckling and then they shift over to their adult colors. So yeah, you'd have to pretty much find a way to make it that it won't shift over to the adult colors. And we're talking about the savo, you mean? Yes, savo. I don't know. That's an interesting one. I really, I don't know. I, I think, I think that there's certain pythons that, that will always be popular. And then there's other ones that won't like, I think of like, I think sometimes I think, you know, how we always say all the time that, you know, you, why won't people work with this? And if they were only more established in captivity and, and a team, more, team more pythons is an example that you hear. Even some of the most dedicated python breeders in the United States, we're in the world for that matter, have worked with them and got rid of them. So yeah, if they can't, you know what I'm saying? Like, there has to be something there that maybe they're not really meant for captivity. You know what I'm saying? Like, wait lips, you know, it's like, wait lips. They, they're in, some people have success, other people just kind of get them to go in and they get rid of them. It's just like some, and that's partially because you don't want to be with an animal that's aggressive. You don't want to be with an animal that's shit's everywhere. You don't want to deal with this, that, and the other thing. So it's like, you know, why have, I have my carpet pythons and their bullet proof and they breed every year and they make babies and there's nothing all with them. And I decided to dip my toe into these animals, but they're nasty. They shit everywhere. They won't make babies. And then all of a sudden now my carpets, I need to, I need two cages for these babies that I've grown up. Guess who gets kicked out? Well, yeah. So yeah, I mean, that's, that's a lot of it right there, you know, and the people who have success, the people who've stuck with it and they get animals to produce. And now all of a sudden when it comes time for cages to be, you know, opened up, I can't get rid of the black-faced white lips. They produce a clutch every year and their black-faced white lips and everybody lined up for that stuff. So of course they ain't going. Lorraine Bobo is getting out of here. So it's like, you know, there's, where when push comes to shove in a breeder's standpoint, cage spaces, cage spaces, cage spaces. So yeah, I guess, you know, my idea would be that I guess if you're going to work with the species, I mean, there, there's people out there and I think these are the people that probably have success with the species, you know, whether it be white lips or sabbos or carpets or whatever, I think that if they're really into that particular species, then they're going to be successful with them. You know, I think that, you know, you should steer the course for, you know, whatever, you know, is you're into. And I think that that you're seeing that kind of level out. I think that you see a lot of people getting into what they like, you know, and not necessarily following trends or anything like that, which is a good thing, you know, and you see, I see more and more people working with what they like and not really worrying about whether or not you're going to get, you know, a return on your investment, so to speak, if that, you know, I see people just kind of saying, okay, kind of like this, you know, I mean, I would say, you know, and it's weird, you know, olive pythons would be an example. Like, if you were to see them on the internet, doesn't really do the animal justice, you know, and then you see them in person. And it's a whole another ball game, you know, you really start to appreciate why people like that particular species, you know, you can really kind of, kind of like what it is about them and, you know, just dig them as a species, you know, they don't have to have any kind of more for anything like that. I mean, they do have almino, which is cool, but, you know, I just, like, there's not, there's not four more sort of a thing, and all that stuff, and you can still get interested in them just as a wild type. I mean, yeah, it's a cool thing, you know, it's so weird because you look at them, like, it's, it's quite interesting, you know, like, especially with having as many carpets as I have, you know, and then you see a different python and like, their head is so long and so like, yeah, long snout. Yeah, it's, it's crazy. Yeah, it's, it's weird because it's like looking at pictures of duns, it looks like a duns python is a macalot with the olives snout on it, and I'm like, oh, yes, please, God, please. So yeah, like, that would be an example of one that I don't really see, I mean, I don't know, I don't really see that being like this crazy, I think that for a while, people will go nuts about it because it's, it's something that you can't have. And me, Rob, we're talking about this today. It's like, this, this idea that you want what you can't have, you know, so I was telling them, I'm like, you know, when I first got into carpet pythons, my dream was to have a Darwin carpet. Yeah, and then I got a Darwin carpet, and then it was like, okay, now my dream is to have an inland carpet, man, that would be cool. Then I got an inland carpet. Yeah, man. You know, and now, and now it's this kick now where it's like, oh, you know, I would love to work with Imbracata. And, you know, hopefully one day I, I'd be able to work with them, you know, that would be awesome. Yeah, but I don't know, it's like this, this is this is weird thing in human beings that you want to work with what you don't, what you can't have. So like, you know, I see, I see a lot of people that kind of want to, they want what they can't have, and then they get it, and it's kind of like, oh yeah, oh well. Play with it, play with it for two days, and then throw it in a drawer. Yeah. So you kind of lose an appreciation, you know, I think, you know, I guess, man, it's hard to try to find what that balance is to have in a collection, and really trying to enjoy that collection. Like, do you ever struggle with, is there like a number that is your cutoff? Like, that's, this is it, this is many animals is that I can take on. Do you have that number? Uh, yeah, it's, it's however many cages I have, 'cause that's it. Like, I've already explained, like, I'm getting two new cages for the olfythons, and that will be probably the last purchase of cages that I will ever do. So, what I'll do is I'll shift over everybody, and then that's it, I'm done. No more cages, no more animals. So that's a good cutoff where I'm at there, 'cause I can trip probably close to 30 adults, maybe more if I include the rec systems, and, and the rest is for juvies and babies. So, and that's a good cutoff, but he kind of keeps me grounded, and he also got to think about it in the sense of, I am raising up a bunch of animals that will eventually need large cages, you know, the diamonds, the white lips, you know, it's just the way you're looking at. So, I mean, certain animals can live in the racks of the savoos for the rest of their lives, but, you know, you kind of get a plan ahead a little bit. So, so your thinking is that you'd rather work with a multitude of species rather than work with, say, like, you know, a variety of coastal bloodlines or stuff like that, you know. I would like to do kind of a mixture of both, but I would limit what I would get into. Like, say, I would limit to, you know, I could totally review my room and do nothing but coastal, but I would rather have the coastal, have the jungles, have the ices, have the diamonds, have everybody, and then maybe have, like, 1.1 Brisbane, or Brisbane, as we were told to say. Sorry, Scott. Anyway, it's always like, you know, it, to do that, and then to have those there, just read with each other. I mean, the rule kind of is here, and it's kind of like my own rule, is the highest I'll go to with a project that isn't a carpet python is a trio. 1.2. So, I'm allowed 1.2 gold phase light lips. And the reason behind that is that I only want that project to take up three cages. If that project takes up more than three cages, it's going to start dipping into my carpet python stuff. And also, it opens up, the thing is like, say, one female breeds with the other one doesn't. Now, who I really need two females, probably not, so I can scale them. Right. So, it's all going on up here. Of course, I say that, and I do now want 2.2 rough scales. Yeah. There's a special, special, uh, exemptions made for those. Okay, fair enough. I'm right. Um, who would 2-1-5-7-4-0-B? No, I did. I'm going to click them on, see who it is. 2-1-5 Eric Code. You're on the air. You have a question, comment? No, it's buddy. Just sayin' happy holidays, guys. Oh, God, it's connected. Hey, what's up, man? Hi, buddy. What's up? What the, what, what did I do this time? I don't know. Get back to me later. I'll figure it out. It's got no love for you, man. No love. Yeah, except when I'm in front of a table, I mean, he needs somebody to take the way. Nothing but love, is that it? Yeah. Then it's here, take this, which happened on at, uh, Canberra. He comes walking up to me, I'm not by anything. I'm like, hold this jungle. He goes, all right, bucked it up. I'm like, yay. Yeah, man. Yeah, and, and, and, he got you again. Yeah, well, you know, his, his kung fu is weak. So, uh, yeah, and the ride home, my wife was like, I thought she weren't buying any snakes. That's the gear well, you know. Yeah, but, you have been owing. Yeah. That's all you gotta say. Yeah, but owing told me to do it. And that's it. I don't care. Blame me for any. Yeah. So. Anyway, yeah, well, I was just calling to say happy holidays, guys. Thank you, buddy. Yeah, I'm, I'm cleaning, uh, viper cages today. Shouldn't you be paying attention to that? Yeah, you should be talking to us. Oh, no, buddy's just gonna be like, ow, and they're just gonna use the silence. So then it's like, you know, sump guys. No, no, I like vipers. I stopped. I'm, I'm done the viper cages. So I'm getting a six pack of hop notch, and then I'm gonna, um, go clean condo cages now. You're gonna clean condo cages with a buzz? That's dangerous as well. So yeah, but I'm not gonna die. I'll just bleed. Just bleed everywhere. Yeah. Okay. He has a point. Yeah. Well, do you date working with the, uh, the vipers? Yeah, it's up and down. I mean, you know, I mean, they, they are, no, they are a cool viper to work with. They're not, you know, like they don't dart out of the containers. You know, they're real mellow. No problem. I mean, I've seen other, you know, like other vipers and I wouldn't even go near them. You know, these, they're, they're cool. You know, like I, I enjoy them. They're fascinating as hell. Um, how so? I mean, what I, it just, just their actions, you know, just, I mean, just the way they are. I mean, I still feed them and I'm waiting for them to constrict and I keep forgetting their vipers. You know, like I'll go feed them and their feeding response is incredible. You know, and, and I mean, just everything about them, just the mellows, they're not as, they're not as, they're not as, you know, like really wound up as other vipers are. I mean, you go through, you know, Hamburg and you, you know, I mean, every other table has a rattle that, you know, like ready to strike, you know, but, but eyelash vipers is just so mellow to me. Like they're not, you know, like trying to get out, you know, like I can hook them and they're not trying to climb up the, um, you know, climb up the hook. They're a lot more mellow than my chondros are. Yeah, really. Well, they're, they're, I mean, they are, I'm not going to say they're a, a start of a viper or anything like I got these as by default doing a favor for a friend. They're no intervenomous. It's like, listen, if I have a, if I have a viper on a hook and it's just calling up the hook, the hook is getting put down in the vipers head. It's um, I mean, I'm just going to step them a little thing and call it a day later. Yeah. Yeah, but these guys, these guys do not these days. Well, the female is huge. She doesn't, you know, like I can hook her occasionally. I may have to use like an extra hook just to support her weight, but she, she doesn't and they are live bears, correct? Yeah. Yeah. That's another thing. You can open the cage and there could be like 20 little ones. Oh my God. No, no, I think that happens. I'm spraying letter fluid in the cage and just chugging at it. Oh, look at how the baby is burning. Well, you know, I'm just, it's, it's been, it was one of those species that I was always fascinated by. Like it was the only viper species that I was always fascinated by. And like I said, you know, I got them by default, you know, and, and they're, they're working out great. They're room temperature snakes. You don't have to really do anything special. Minor in, you know, well, they're paired up now. So they're in one container and the highest they get is maybe 76 to 78 during the day. They'll go down to 68 at night because, you know, the temperature, the room is gone for the condros. Right. No problems with them. None. The male just shed the other day. That's it? No, no. I mean, there's not, they're not, they're not the, um, they're not, you know, like I don't, I don't even look at them and say, God, I want to handle them. You know, I mean, so the next step I assume for you is mamba, right? Yeah, no. Uh-uh, no. No, I don't bring a Christmas gift then. Oh, well, you know, yeah, you know, if, if maybe Eric would have said that I thought they might have been a Christmas gift, but I know there's no Christmas gift. I could have gotten you a black mamba. You don't know. Yeah. Uh-huh. No tie pans in your future. No tie pans, no red bellies, no, no brown. Rhino vipers, no cobra. No, no, no. I'll get a renewable vipers. Owen has bad experience with the route, the route of vipers. Dude, I'm telling you, I'm, this is, no, my Viper experience goes eyelash. That's it. No, I mean, it's like I said, it's a fascinating species. It really is. It really is. Right. And if it was a bit, if it was a bit more, you know, like, I guess runny or whatever, you know, like the ones that really want to move, I would have gotten rid of them, but they're, they're just really mellow and they're really chill. Right. Yeah, I mean, I mean, you think chondros sit in one space for, for a time, the eyes wipers are, are just as they do it just as much. If not more, if not more. Okay. So you're basically working with ball pythons on sticks. Here we go to the city and I just fucking your ball. Not made. Uh-huh. That would only get animals that sit on sticks and don't move. So, yeah, you know, that's my, yeah, I mean, right now, then my, the breadlye are even doing that. They're all purged on, on ball sticks and that. Who gave you them bread lye? Who produced those bread lye? Well, nobody gave them to me. I was forced to pay for them at some point. Damn right, you were. But who produced them? They are my rogue reptile bread lye. Yeah, they're, they're in the same rack with my rogue reptile tigers. I need to see. You can post more pictures of these animals and talk about me and good lye. Yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're eating like crazy right now. They're all up to like either two, two big fuzzies or two big paints. They're eating like crazy. So, that's going to be because I'm on vacation this week. So I'm, I'm, I'm a snake reader this week. Okay. So, are you, are you experiencing the, are you in breeding mode yet? Because you're local. So, um, well, I wasn't breeding mode until I found out that, um, you can't really make babies with two females. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's kind of a problem. Dangerous. Yeah. Well, no, no, no. You know, I actually came across what, what I consider like the, the prototypical, you know, biocondra, which is that yellow and green blocks one. Uh-huh. To me, that's like, that's a con, that's a biocondra right there. More than anything else. So, I had an opportunity to buy one. So, I buy it. And I forget, you know, like, I, everybody I've dealt with, when they say they're sending me a mail, I know it's a mail. I don't have to check it. It's a mail. I didn't think about it this time. So, the guy sends it to me. I put it in quarantine, get out of quarantine, go through the whole cycle, put it in with the female. First night with the female, she goes, eight shit on it. So, I'm like, okay, well, she's robbed, you know, I'm figuring, yeah, it must be a mail because she's not really big in them. So, I take them out, give her a couple of days, put them back in there. She's mellow. For three or four days, nothing happens. So, I'm like, five o'clock one morning, I'm just like, all right, I'm going to take, you know, before I go to work, I'm taking her out. Put it in the cage. And as I'm putting it in the cage, I'm letting it run through my fingers. And when I get to Clolica, I'm like, whoa, that's something wrong. I got to go to work. So, all day, I'm thinking about it. When I get home, I go upstairs, I go check the cage and lo and behold it to female. And I was just out. God, I was so pissed. So, but I finally, I tracked down a mail. I actually tracked down a really good looking mail with a lot of black in it. So, he's actually quarantined right now. Okay. So, I'll be back on track at like six weeks, getting about six weeks. Okay, yeah. Okay, you know. And then I got the other one. The other project is, is the cyclops that I got from the Rico, Walter, Alton, and the the Arasac Outcross that I got from Loop Snow. Okay. Yeah. Well, that one, I think he's a little intimidated by this big girl, because she's a big girl. And I think he puts in, you know, he's given it the yeoman effort. But I think when he realizes that, you know, she's like 800 grams and he's like 300 grams. I think he's a little bit scared. You know, I think he's a little intimidated by it. So, I take him out of, you know, when it's speaking time, he's like a pig. You know, it's just, I'm kind of thinking he just may not be his year, you know, he's just size wise for her. He's not, he's not up there yet. So, we'll see, you know, but yeah, I am. I mean, I'm kind of in breeding mode. Yeah. I mean, as far as that, I'm doing the eyelash wipers and I'm definitely doing the BOC. I may do the BOC male to the psych claps. I'm not really sure about that one, but I mean, yeah, I mean, I'm in breeding mode. He kind of threw me off for a while. Yeah. You know, but other than that, I mean, it's getting cooler again. So, we'll see. You know, I think it's just on the throw. I mean, as far as I go, it's going to throw everything off maybe about three weeks, two months, you know, as far as like, you know, cycling at all. Yeah, what you, you know, no Russia. What's weird for me is being, you know, bringing a snake breeder now. It's like, I'm praying for the cold in the snow. We're in the past, I'm like, no, you can keep that. Yeah, I don't want no parts of that. That's how I used to be. It's like, I never looked forward to fall and winter until I decided that I'm going to breed every year now, you know. Right. I used to not think about it because it's like, well, you're racing right through spring and summer and, you know, those are the days I enjoy, but now, no, I want to get the fall. I want to get the winter. Yeah, you know. So, um, great. I'm still not, I don't have any adult carpets, so I'm not, um, I'm not worried about, about, you know, like the winter stuff because I'm not cooling down any carpets, but I know once I get all that going, then I'll be all right. Then I'll be, you know, in that mode with those. Yeah. But now right now, it's just condos and eyelash wipers. Cool. Yeah. Cool, cool. I enjoy it. Yeah. Hopefully, I could talk, oh, and one day in the, um, selling eyelash wipers for me. We need to get this off the table right now. Oh, and it's far too many near-death experiences at the hands of venomous and crocodilians. So, there are two things that Owen will not ever deal with, venomous and crocodilians. So, all right, bye. No, you know, the, the, the, I was right, but kind of have killed gals, like a rough scale. So, you know, sorry, close, venomous, venomous. No, it's only, it's only venomous if it bites you. Uh, it was, yeah, we'll avoid that. And having that I escaped a mamba, a black pack, and a, thank the gold, and a root of wipers without getting killed, I'm not going to take it when it's an eyelash wiper from you, which would, that would be the way it would go, too. Use an eyelash wiper from Buddy. So, make Eric do it. He's not tempted fake. No, no, I'll pass. I can, I, I'll, I'll admire them from afar. I won't even admire them from afar else. I had my experience when I was young with venomous and, uh, man, I'm done. And you know what, that's really what it is. I mean, still, I know some people who do venom, um, like the guy Frank, who does Hamburg, you know, the one guy he sells a lot of, he's, I mean, he, he's always got, he's always talking about, you know, he constantly has contact with him. I'm, I still admire him from afar. The only time then that them containers are open is when it's time to feed them or time to clean out their, their, their containers or put water in there. And this one once a week, that's it. I can't, I, I won't get into the hole, trying to handle them, trying to hook them, trying to, you know, I've heard with some guys say, oh, you can kind of calm them down to where they're, they'll get used to it. No, I don't, I don't care. I don't care if they do. Hey, more, more power teeth. It'll never happen with the two I got. The wall, the wall cobras and it was, it was interesting to watch and be honest, those animals, you know, those forest cobras, there was only a moment of time before they killed somebody. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that still a funny thing at Hamburg when you go around and you see those guys and, you know, there are people sitting there making deals and I'm sitting there going, why? There was some guy at the last hamburger who goes, oh yeah, I got to fit yesterday and he holds up this, what I thought at first was like an oven mitt, but no, that was his hand. Lown off to the point, he goes, let him go to the hospital tomorrow. I'm like, what the? He's wrong with you. Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm never going to bring it. I'm never going to get, if I ever get that close, then they're out of the door. If I ever get close to, I got through today by one of the rough scales, she actually put the two, like near my fingernail and like hooked it in there and then she was caught and I was caught and kind of staring at each other. Guess what? I just bled and moved on. It's totally cool. If, if one of the, it's something like a viper put the fang on another end of a deli cup airhole and scrapes me, I've had, I had a boss end up in the hospital for two weeks because of venomoid cobra scrapes him with one of his fangs and his arm blew up. You can have an adverse reaction to digits they're so live up. No, no venomous, although I do want hula monsters. Damn it. Yeah, we'll see. And that, that's, that's one of my other ones. No one's died from hula monster bites. Yeah, very, very sick. And I do hula monster and I want to show it's okay. My, my day is working at, at Martin's Aquarium, you know, the guys who did the venomous, they would walk in and, you know, like thumbs and fingers. One guy has got like a missing top of his index finger. What happened? Oh, monocle cobra. Really? Like, and he says it, like, you know, you know, like, he, you know, like he saw something, you know, something's covered something. You know, like, wow, we should have known then by what Martin's Aquarium was, where we were all headed. So I knew where I was headed. And I knew where I was headed. And the worst part about is if Martin's Aquarium was still around, I mean, just what would be going on around here would be so amazing. Well, you know, they, it was literally a block from my mother's, literally a block from my mother's house. And it's like, if I had been plugged into reptiles at all, when it was still open, I would have been grabbing stuff and walking at home. It would have been a terrible place. Yeah. My mother would have had that place shut down to stop me, like, I don't understand. So yeah, that place, when it closed, I bought four, four albino berms, and just for shits and giggles, I bought a pair of Borneo bloods. But I wound up selling them right away because they were boring, but now I regret the shit out of that, but still, these are boring. But no, it was. It wasn't me. Like, they, I mean, and the things they had in there, I mean, you know, and that was the fun part about it. Like you go to work, and it's like all of a sudden, you see Guyana Boas all over the place, because the female had the baby's last night and they got out of the glass aquarium that they were in. That's not a good thing. That's not a good thing. No, it isn't. It's not good at all. But I mean, they had, they had the things, you know, they had, they were the ones that were bringing in those animals that, that, you know, you wouldn't see a pet smarter anywhere else. They were bringing. The one, the one time they had it, they had a chondro. So I tried to steal it, the thing bit its face when he was trying to steal it. And it was on video tape. It was the funniest thing you've ever seen, you know, I mean, they had, they had um, Dwarf Caiman, you know, you don't get those in pet stores anymore. So I got yelled at for playing with the baby crocs and one of the alleys once. Yeah, I mean, that was the thing. They had, they, you know, every spring, they would have, you know, a shipment of crocodiles come in. Yeah, it was ridiculous. The two years that I was there was amazing, you know. Oh my God, if that was still around. Yeah. Somebody was probably the guy yelled at me, so that's probably why I get bloody shit. So I didn't get, no, I didn't get paid enough. So I didn't let you do whatever you want. They barely paid me enough to clean snake cages. I wasn't going to yell at me. I'm not there to babysit. You want to get bit? Go ahead, have fun. Don't tell them I was around when it happened. That's all. Sweet. They didn't pay me enough. So, but yeah, I just wanted to wish you guys a happy holiday. Yep. They were off for two weeks. So, I don't know what I'm going to do next week while I'm cleaning cages. I have fun with that. Yeah, I got to figure out something. So. But, and I guess I'll, um, well, I'll be talking to you all and because I just, you know, I'm a cut for punishment and can't stay away for these two long. I'm looking at the bright side. I'm out that rattle and tigers. So, I can't get you unless you want co-stools and jags and some other stuff. Well, I, I still got to get, I got to add to the co-stools because that, um, that, that, uh, and I got you said that, whatever. Yeah, I know. Um, it's one of those people never agreed to, like, February on this another show. So, and I'm almost out of it. Yeah, we thought I'd produce. So, then I'll get you on some of the annex or something. You'll be happy to know that the, uh, end pens have been locked probably more than any other pairing that I have this year. The stripes? Uh, the stripes? No. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think was the end pens after I've known about you? Hey, look. I'll, I'll take whatever I want. Well, you know what, when Eric, when Eric says something like, I don't, you know, that, that's like a bill put up that, that picture to one, I was going to actually comment that he actually got a snake out of Eric that's the most amazing thing. So, yeah. Oh, the albino zebrajack. Yeah. Yeah. That albino. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I have to really have something that Eric wants in order to get snakes out of him. Yeah. But, but, but, but you can't say I sell a breathing cell of snakes unless you sell them. He does. He does when they're three years old and he doesn't want that one. You have to wait for the questions too and he's going to keep these five. He's going to let you three go. The problem is that when that happens, the first few people he talked to myself included end up just snatching the things up and you guys never hear about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. That's kind of how that works. I'm waiting for the albino, the, the head albino tigers thinking that happens. You guys are never going to know that deal went down. They're buying, picking them all. Well, I'll find out the one time when we're talking and you'll say, oh yeah, look what I got from Eric. Let's find out. You'll find out when you're buying an albino tiger from me. So, because I'm not a piggy, I'll just let him go. So, that. Oh, God. That, well, you got that right. But, yeah. But, yeah. So, so, I'm having fun with that, that jungle too. She's eating like a pig. God, she's taking down small rats now. Oh yeah. I know. That's what she was eating here. So, yeah. So, they were quite happy. Yeah. And she's quite content. I'm happy with that one too. So, cool. All right. Well, you guys have a good rest of the show. I'll listen to Mar. All right. I will. I will talk to you guys. So, talk to you soon, Owen. All right. Bye, buddy. All right. See you, buddy. See you. Cool. Yeah. I guess people fall. I guess I'm going to have to work on selling him a snake. What the heck? You're already answering him. Yeah. That's one of those things. You sure know, love Owen. Hey, I'm telling snake you don't do shit. That's true. Yeah. All right. So, we're at the last 10 minutes of the year, Owen. It's like the balls dropping down. Doo, doo, doo. I'm going to read some nothingness. Yeah. I thought about it today. I was like, wow, next Tuesday. I'll just be cleaning snake cages and won't be worried about, you know, I don't even know what to do. It's like, yeah. All right. So, Eric, you feel like you want to talk? Yeah. Can we just talk together, Dad? The, I'm going to, I'm going to hit on this article. What do you think? Should I, well, I guess, oh, and if you have a comment or whatever, then, you know, feel free to just, to jump in or do you want to wait? How do you want to do it? Just go read the article and then we'll talk about it afterwards. Just, I want to make sure we get it before time runs out. Yeah. This is true. All right. So, like I said, this is from the Vivarian magazine. And it's volume six, number six. And just so you guys have an idea of when this came out, it was in, I think it was April, May of 1990. I'm trying to look for the date. We're going to have a date. 1990 at some time. Yeah. I want to say '93, I believe. Okay. So this is an article by Dave and Tracy Barker. And I'm going to read it as it is. So it's not like, when I say 'I', it's not me. I hope people understand that. So, hopefully we've never read anything on the air. But all right. Here we go. It's called a new Python in captivity from New Guinea, the New Guinea carpet Python. Despite what many old zoo inventories might say, it is only during the past two years that specimens of the carpet Python from New Guinea, Morellia, Spalota, Veragata, which they called it back then. My brain is very cold. Yeah. Have been imported into the United States. The earlier and erroneous stories of the New Guinea carpet pythons in the United States resulted from one of the most dramatic chapters in recent zoo history. An event so traumatic that it generated something of a born again geographic miracle for many zoos, many snakes and zoos collections at the time. The story of the first New Guinea carpets, in air quotes, has woven through many formative events in the evolution of Herpeticulture as we know today. In the early 1970s, were the good old days for Dave Barker. He had a huge private snake collection and was a junior key Texas Zoo. Tracy was still in middle school. Her stints in the zoos would come several years later. As it turned out, I had a ringside seat for these events that were going to relate. Back in the late 1960s, there had grown two huge exotic reptile importing businesses in the United States. They shall remain nameless here, but one of them was on the east and one was on the west. Every other month or no, most zoos received price lists from these businesses. List of inventory. List of inventory unlike any ever before. They eagerly anticipated lists with single space small font both sides of several pages. These lists used scientific names to identify the animals that had never before been imported. Animals so rare that often the price list had the first ever published common name. For that matter, some even had the first ever scientific name, not that they were actually the real scientific name. Many of these animals previously known only to academics and seen only in jars on shelves of museums. It was several hours of intense studying to absorb just what was detailed on these wish lists. We suspect that most of our peers first learned scientific names from these lists generating their first awareness of hundreds or thousands of tax taxa of reptiles and amphibians. It's difficult for many herpetoculturists who have become interested or grown up in the past 20 years to realize some of the differences between now and then. One major difference was that there was very few books available or of interest to herpetoculturists. There was none of the lavishly colored illustrated books that today line bookshelves, price lists, particularly from these two businesses were often the most available, informative, and current source of information for eager to learn young herpetoculturists. The zoo is eagerly compared for the price, I'm sorry, the zoo is eagerly competed for the price list and the best customer offers an early copy of a list where a phone call from one of the owners of these businesses if an animal of particular interest was expected or received by one of the businesses. These businesses dealt with very few individuals. Price lists were seldom seen by most private collectors or hobbyists. The names and phone numbers of these two businesses were often closely guarded secrets. There were no magazines in which to advertise or glean information from advertisements. In fact, individuals seldom bought the big dollar animals from the dealers. In those days there were several serious big-time reptile collectors scattered around the country, but there were no reptile breeders and there was no money generated by reptile breeding. Captain bred reptiles or amphibians were almost unknown in those days. It was during that period of time that many of the Australian species of pythons, monitors, and a few Australian alapids seen in captivity today were imported into the United States. Australian laws were not as strict as they are today, but even then it was illegal to export reptiles from Australia. We have no knowledge of how these pythons or monitors made it to the United States. But it was a matter of record that they appeared on these lists and many were purchased by zoos. Incredibly, both of these businesses got in trouble for importing Fiji island iguanas. At the time they're existed a bizarre catch-22 situation regarding these particular species. The government of Fiji had one set of laws that permitted the export of these lizards, even issuing a legal export license for these lizards. At the same time another set of laws expressedly forbade the export of these lizards from Fiji. The existence of the second set of laws made the importation of the Fiji island iguanas into the United States a violation of the Lacy Act. Now Lord. Now came the drama and the trauma in zoo reptile collections. In 1976 many curators of reptile departments were subpoenaed to appear and testify before a federal grand jury held in Philadelphia. No knowledge charges were specified against the curators. Nor did any even go to the trial but they were all suspect of buying animals of possible illegal origin particularly Australian reptiles from the two dealerships that had been busted for the Fiji island iguanas. Many of the curators did appear before the grand jury that was convened. They were questioned about their relationship with the two dealerships and their relationship with each other above about the the propriety of their own philosophies and collections and about the animals that they were that were in the collections for which they were responsible. Ultimately no charges were brought against the curators other than a few reported migraines ulcers and drinking problems that were non-negative effects on the careers of which they were aware. The effects of this were stunning to everyone who was involved even those of us watching from the sidelines. The repercussions from this event known in zoo circles as the Philadelphia Inquisition continued to ring till this day. We are all dumbfounded by what happened. We had perceived ourselves as just reptile lovers obsessed with our interest. To the government we apparently had all been highly suspicious and possibly illegal fringe group that were dealing animals at the international level. Suddenly reputations and careers were at stake and only because of our blindly pursuing of herpeticulture interest. An era of innocence and naivety ended. Herpeticulture suddenly got more complex and it has never been the same. There were numerous results from the Philadelphia Inquisition. Smart zoo curators got much more meticulous about the origins of their animal acquisitions and the associated necessary paperwork. One of the reptile dealerships folded. The other went into obscurity. In the vacuum their absence created many of the reptile dealerships in existence today. All of us who had our eyes and ears opened by this incredible turn of events realized for the first time that wildlife flaws and regulations weren't just meant or enforced against nature rapers. They also included us who loved and worship reptiles and amphibians. The miracle that happened was that suddenly most of the Australian reptiles that had been in zoos suddenly became New Guinea reptiles. For example snakes that had been labeled by zoo lobby graphics as brown water pythons from Australia became New Guinea water pythons and gold monitors from Australia were relabeled New Guinea sand monitors. Carpet pythons once fairly common in zoo reptile collections suddenly became in many zoo collections and this and that is the story of origin of the first New Guinea carpet pythons. They probably were all coastal carpet pythons from Australia or that's what what they had been before the Philadelphia Inquisition. Many of these snakes are still around some are still labeled as New Guinea carpet pythons. So New Guinea is the second largest island in the world and it is divided into two political entities. The western half is known as Erian Jaya a territory of Indonesia and the eastern half is an independent country known as Papua New Guinea. To the best of our knowledge the first live carpet pythons ever imported into United States that actually were from New Guinea came into the country in 1993. These New Guinea carpet pythons are from the vicinity of Maruk or Moraki, Erian Jaya the southernmost point of New Guinea just to the west of the international boundary between Erian Jaya and Papua New Guinea. Carpet in New Guinea have a very restricted range and are found in two or three separated areas in New Guinea. The Erian Jaya population and the central population in the western district of Papua New Guinea have been maybe in contact and and a separated population of carpet pythons is found in an area along the central south coast of Papua New Guinea in the vicinity of Port Moresby the capital of Papua New Guinea. The snakes from all three populations are similar in appearance. The New Guinea carpet python is related to and strongly resembles the northwestern carp python of Australia, Moralia Spolodaveragata in color and pattern. The New Guinea carpet python has a pre dominantly ring pattern with 55 to 68 pale rings on the neck and body. The ring patterns typically continue on the tail. Many specimens also have a pale vertical stripe on all portions of the length of the body. Then it sort of just goes into Yeah but I find that interesting because you know there's often a debate about the idea of you know locality specific species whatever it would be and it's labeled one thing and then all you know everybody takes that as it is and you'll hear people argue that if you didn't collect it yourself that you don't know what it is but it just goes to show you that even the people that are running zoos and such you know just go and switch names so they don't get trouble. I don't know you know that this sort of ties in with the story of the New Guinea carpet pythons that you know Derek Roddy has which I have quite a few of those as well but he often says that they were labeled as New Guinea carpet pythons but the thinking was that they you know is now that they may be coastal or Cape York carpets but again there's nothing that proves that but when you hear a story like that you start to think yeah something yeah so yeah I don't know what did you think all right I think it makes up a very good point you know I mean how many times we have contours we're like hey there aren't any contours on that island but there's an airport on that island just because it says that this doesn't mean it's the locality or shit out there so just the way it goes I mean you're telling me that that's I know exactly that is what happened in the 90s when they started getting the shut down because there were types of monitor there were types of lizards types of everything told me suddenly came New Guinea because you can slap that tag on it and ship it over only when the the agents that inspect the shipments of animals here started becoming you know wiser and more educated in where these reptiles were from the dad will get shut down so and even then there's still there's still loopholes that are being exploited that was just the biggest one at the time so oh yeah that happened all those ways I think salt water crocodiles are passed off as we guinea crocs to get them into the country at some point I'm pretty sure they slapped the different labels on it like telling you it's a different animal to get it in so yeah that would not surprise me at all sure and then what do you do once it's here like they're you able to know you know what I mean if it's here and like you lay low I guess for a while and then all of a sudden they become this and you know it's really something else and you know you have to tell like how do you tell the story behind it well imagine if let's say I had someone from Australia send me in bricata under the guise of them being imported from whatever like say they took them to beginning and chipped them out as like wild caught airing jet I can raise them up I can get them up the size I can breathe them I can tell them the bricata why is this what they are now are you telling me that some guy from fish and wildlife is going to notice that I'm selling a bricata and wonder how the hell I got them into the country that much right no it's not going to happen but if I'm bringing in like truckloads of certain animals that we know for a fact are not here like say I had an entire shipment of 20 England pythons coming in from Australia now we're going to notice what the hell these things are because they're inland type ants they could be nothing else but inland type ants but they're labeled as like Indonesian and some but others they call them Indo type ants and you're getting type ants now we're all going to be like there's something fishy going on here right it's essential what you can pass that's certain things you can probably pass different morale is different morale yeah right it's just what it comes down to like passing lizards and skinks and other animals is other things than it works right so yeah hmm interesting interesting yeah interesting it's so weird to hear what that I mean all expectations just happened through the pit that we talked about earlier yeah with the the stones around it yeah the magic hold will be Europe yeah don't fall in the pit bed unless you want to go to Europe you know and a quick vacation I mean else yeah well speaking of occasional and it's almost that time my friend uh yeah another year down yeah we will be back on when will we be back let me get the date here so oh exactly when it is I guess when we feel like it I went right that's what I'm right we will be back on January 5th got it that's when we're back January 5th so I don't know if you have anything else to uh to chat about um I would say if you aren't sitting at snake come over talk to us and you have to come get it because I'm not shipping and all that fun stuff and uh we'll see everybody in the new year and uh thank you all for listening to us for this entire season I know it's been a fun weird season and uh that everybody out there has a safe and happy holiday and uh we catch everybody back for next year is all I would say it okay uh yeah uh I can't really say anything else than uh you know happy happy holidays to everybody and uh you know thank you for all your support uh means the world to us and um as if we can uh get more people excited about uh you know uh carpet pythons and Australia and indonesian reptiles uh you know or just reptiles in general for that matter um then uh we're doing what we're supposed to be doing so uh should be a good next year I think um I think we have some uh some cool shows lined up and um you know um I don't know um that's it I don't know what else to say and uh I don't got nothing else you got nothing we'll see you next year yeah all right then we're out we'll do is on it everybody have a happy holidays from all of us here at NPR go all of you out there have a safe happy holidays good night everyone [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]