Morelia Python Radio

Blue Tongue Skinks- Some morelia etc. with Zach Baez

In this morelia etc. episode we will be be discussing Blue tongue skinks aka BTS. It seems that BTS have been gaining more and more popularity with morelia keepers and the reptile world in general. We will be talking with Zach Baez from Dark Side Exotics about the natural history, his approach to keeping and break down some of the misconceptions about them in captivity. We will talk about breding and some of the different morphs that people are currently working with.

Duration:: 2h 59m
Broadcast on:: 09 Dec 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown here, you may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, when I was a reptile breeder and their owner of Projak. I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markham and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news. Focus on links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists, just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. You're a buyer or breeder, you gotta check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling definition full of features that help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, search by sex, weight, more, or other keywords, and use our Buy Now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.to reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptile's account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum med. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buy your own selling and ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. Ship your reptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. The materials needed to ship your reptile successfully, live customer support, and our live on time arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship an animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome to Moralea Python Radio with your hosts Eric Berg and Owen McIntyre. Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Moralea Python Radio. On tonight's episode, we're stepping outside of the Moralea box. Well, sort of, we will be talking about bluetunk skinks with our good friend Zach Baez. Dark side exotics. He's going to do, basically, an introduction to bluetunk skinks for us Python aficionados. We're going to be hitting on natural history, basic husbandry, touch on some breeding, and maybe some morphs. I think the one thing that Zach has often told me is how parallel the leekwood genus is to the Moralea genus. For all you people out there that have wanted a lizard, but we're afraid of taking the plunge because of the, well, let's face it. Snakes are basically the lazy man's reptile. Would you not agree Owen? I would agree. Having just gotten rid of every monitor that is in my house, I would totally agree because, first of all, monitors can be dangerous and they have to eat every day and all of this stuff. So it does take a lot of work for those kinds of animals. My snakes, I check on them every day, but naturally I don't have to do too much. You're right, snakes are definitely the lazy guy, reptile. I've heard my lizard friends say that numerous times today. Yeah, this is so true. It is, and I don't care. But yeah, but yeah, it should be very cool. This is a species I said a while back that I've always kind of been interested in them, but never really enough to say, want to keep them until when Zach went away and, you know, I had to go over and check on his reptiles and I had the opportunity to sort of check them out, you know, on my own, so to speak. Yeah, they're really pretty cool animals. Yeah, the exposure from somebody, they let you play with the animal and then you're like, huh, they're not so bad. And then you start doing research on your own, which have you done the research on your own yet? Have I? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, obviously. So the next step is you're going to buy one and then you try the next step. If you like it, you end up buying a few more or you say it one and just keep that one and, you know, yeah, so yeah, you're well on your way. I bet you haven't seen in the next like four months. Four months? Yeah, this is when you tell me it's ordered, it'll be here tomorrow, so it's like. Yeah, I prefer the, well, this is going to be a shocker to everybody, but I kind of like the Australian ones as my God, the Indonesian one. So I don't know what to think anymore. Yeah. Clearly, that's just the continent. I should really just start finding things that are in Australia and try to get you interested because you'll probably just buy them. You know, two clubs from Australia. Yeah, I'll buy. Yeah, you're like, I don't know that. Very cool. We got to take care of some business before we get pumping here with Zach, but what I guess I always asked after you come back from the show. How was Hamburg? Hamburg was good. It was, well, no, it really wasn't. I just remembered, but it's like, Hamburg was a good show. It was like, because you forget, when you have a good show and you sell some animals and move some stuff, you can get the small thing. And of course, the small thing was, is that I was a complete idiot and broke every single rule I've told all you guys to do when going to a snake show. And I forgot the keys to my acrylics at the house. So I set up the table, not realized, unless it makes it move to the way over, that I couldn't get any of the snakes out of their displays. So after panicking for at least 10 minutes, I started asking all the other reptile friends that we got there, Howard, Jamie, Jason. And it's funny because every single one of them was like, you know, if I had brought my other truck here today, I would have had like bolt cutters in a torch and I'm like, and you didn't bring that one, did you? No, no, I brought my car today. And I'm like, ah, it's like, the universe is punching you repeatedly in the face here, Owen. So I finally took a Leatherman, which normally I have in my display case too. So where the hell that is, um, and broke the security lock because there's a, on my displays, there's this sliding acrylic bar on the back that lock my displays in the doors in place so they can't slide open. I broke every single one of the sliding bars in the back so that I could open up my displays and now they won't walk. So, geez, well, I guess that means you have to find new displays, right? Yeah, looks like I'm getting new displays. I kind of wanted to, I wanted new ones anyway. And now I have a major excuse to do it. So luckily, luckily the next show is until February. So I have the late February. So I have time and all that fun stuff. It's like, and Jamie did take one of the bars home with him because he's going to try to find a way, create the security bar because that's the only part that's broken on the acrylics. So he's going to try to recreate that so that I can repair them and that they will be functional again so that I can then tell them as you use the acrylics and not have to worry about it. But, yeah, probably just going to get new ones anyway. But if that was part of the show, what the other part was that we sold a few animals and I got a little captive born and bred baby girl full-paced weight. And she's so tiny. She's like her head's the size of your thumbnail and you're like, "I forget that you guys turned into like eight-foot holy terrors that want to murder the world." So it's like, "Okay." Right now, "Yay!" But it was a fun show. Great talking, everybody. I had fun talking to Howard, Jason, Jamie, Amanda, everybody there was really cool talk to. I met a few people from the show who said that they listened. That's awesome. I sold some people that first carpified on. He always loved the show even though, you know, I ended up costing myself $800. It's still a good show. It's still a win, right? It's a bad win, but it's a win. So, yeah, it was a fun show. Well, that's cool. People asked about you and I, people asked about you and I said that it wasn't this. You were far too high-end to come down from your throne for a mere hamburger show. Oh, wow. Yeah, I did it with that tone of voice the entire time, too. Well, wait for people to really, really like it. Good job. Yeah, I paint horrible pictures of you when I'm let alone, too. Yeah, I see this. I see this. Okay, very good. The one thing, the other thing I want to hit on before we get Zach on here is, I don't know if everybody has caught this, but Frederick has put up for auction a captive-born and bred Bolin's python, a male in 2015. Cool. He's feeding well on wrap-ups and doing great. It's going to be, basically, the auction is to raise money for research of Bolin. Python's in the wild by Ari. So, all funds will go to his research. The auction started, is on now, but it ends on December 13th, 2015. So, let's see, what else does he have in there? So, people are probably wondering, because Frederick's overseas, if they can bid on it, and here's the cool thing is that you can, because it could be exported and shipped to Fort Worth, Texas, from the USA, and then from there, it'll make its way to wherever you are. Wow. If you're over in Europe, he can, he will have delivery to the ham expo in Germany. The 12th of March, 2016. So, there must be a ham show in March 12th. So, you can pick it up there. Or, if you're in the States, you can get it at Fort Worth, Texas. So, if you ever had the idea of wanting to have Bolin's pythons and have captive-born and bred, you've got a bid on this. Here's a heck of a chance. Yeah, here you go. I might be not even wondering what Bolins just did. Yeah, I don't know what, I mean, I think it's up to 2000 euro. Nevermind. That was a fun fantasy for five seconds, but... Yeah, I'm not really sure where... That reminds me, Evan was at the show at Hamburg, and he and I talked about Bolins and Fly River Turtles for like 20 minutes. It was awesome. Oh, Evan. Oh, Evan. Let's see what we do in there. I don't know. He was just there. I was really surprised to see him, but it was like, and, you know, he was talking and I, we were talking about how we should have, like, tricked Casper into coming down for the Hamburg show. I think he got in the day after in New York. So... Right. But anyway. Right. Well, yeah, get a bid on the Bolins, both on. Yeah, that's pretty cool. And I guess, yeah, I don't have anything else. Do you have anything else? I'm good. I'm good. People on your meatball. Yeah, you're too low-end. I'm sorry. Sorry, I don't have things. Yeah. Wow. I just looked at, I don't know what they put it. Oh, so, basically, you can follow us over on the NPR chat. We got the chat room going over there. Also, Zach posted up a link to bluetungskinks.net. I'm going to post it over in the, what do you call it as well? Yeah. I believe the words we're searching for. But anyway, we're also going to, if there are any pictures that we're talking about on the show, we're going to post them up on Riley Python radio's Facebook page. If we don't get to them during the show, we will definitely make sure they're posted up after the show for anybody who's a podcast listener. Of course, if you are listening to this in your car, do not look at the pretty pictures of skinks. Because, you know, that's how accidents happen. Anyway, all right. So, there you go. It's an insurance tip of the day. Zach, you are live and we're ready to talk some bluetung skinks. Hey, hey, hey, hey. What's up, folks? Keep on on. Not much. Hey, that's kind of a quiet evening, right? I'm sure we all have busy work days, and send back to Laxon in the talk for you. Hopefully, we get to touch on a lot of things, but there's a lot to talk about. So, I'm going to try to keep this as deep as possible as we go through things because it's not. We'll never get done. Yeah, well, I doubt we're going to get it all in the first 20 anyway. I mean, there's way too much here. But let's get started anyway. Next, what grew you to work with bluetung skinks anyway? Because you did you have, I mean, you were mainly a snake guy before you started dipping into these things, all right? Actually, it's quite the opposite. I started keeping bluetung almost 10 years ago. You know, I was keeping... That was when I started getting really serious about the hobby it was about 10 years ago, right out of high school. Essentially, before then I was keeping anything I could get my hands on, you know, the gecko or whatever. And some of them pumped bluetung skinks. I think I was reading that reptiles magazine. They had an ad with a lady holding a bluetung skink, and I was just like floored by this animal. And she was kind of cute too. I forget what ad that was but it was pretty cute. So I remember the bluetung in there and it was such a cool animal because it looked real hefty and had a tongue sticking out by bright bluetung and just kind of, I don't know, captured me. I thought that was the coolest thing ever. And, you know, I said, I really didn't get into these guys. And upon further research, you know, I found bluetung skinks on that, which a lot of people have kind of used that as their starting point to becoming bluetung efficient out. It was kind of where most people had started. It's been, you know, this website has been around for a long time. I know Zach was the one who started it, not the Zach, but I know Zach. And it's just been a community has grown so much. And there's a lot of information on there. Some of it's outdated, but a lot of it is pretty good. And so I kind of just obsessed with his website and got my first bluetung in northern from Andrew Sykes. And at the time, I was talking to Andrew a lot. He's probably one of the, you know, old-timey bluetung gurus of the country. And, you know, he was, you know, he kind of took me on his wing a little bit, showed me a lot about, you know, different lines. And I was really into, I was like a purist in the start. You know, I was really into all the crazy lines I was working with and everything else. So, you know, I got quite a collection in northern. So I had it for a few years. And then when kind of, you know, school kind of got too crazy, I had to let go of all of them. And so about two years there in the middle, I wasn't keeping any bluetung. And then right up to school, I got a few more. I got another one in northern, just because I feel like I need one again. At the time, I'm going to keep them piped on again. And then, yeah, it kind of snowballed from there. And now I have 13 of these things. And yeah. Snowball blue. Yeah, a little bit. You know, after I realized, oh, okay. So I don't really need to do half the things I used to do when he'd just be trying to. You know, a lot of my husbandry had changed as my other dream general and reptile, my understanding of reptile physiology has changed since, you know, 10 years ago. So I keep them much different than I was keeping them. And they're better all for it, to be honest. Many of the issues I was seeing before, I don't see anymore. So, yeah. So I mean, I guess we're going to touch on that as well. But, you know, yeah, that's how I got into them. They're just, you know, they're like the perfect size. Not too small. You know, you don't feel like you're going to break the things, you know. You know, so they're anywhere from about, you know, anywhere from like the small, like the smallest one is the penguin, but we're not going to really talk about those much today. But the biggest, you know, it could be up to 30 inches. But, you know, most of that, it'll happen that being a tail on the big rigs. And then you're looking at, you know, somewhere around between 16 to 24 is usually the range, 16 feet in a can of ours and stuff. But, you know, not too big of an animal. For something that's really hardy, not fast, it's not going to bolt and run under your, you know, your bed or under your refrigerator or something like that. It's going to sit still, generally relaxed animals, not very aggressive. And all these things are clutches. And then on top of that, you have some animal that is crazy easy to take care of and see what's hardy. And so it was really a no-brainer for me. Well, wow, this is the best pet reptile ever. And I still hold that. I have to keep in everything access since then. I still believe that's the case. Well, I will argue, I will argue with anybody. So you've done that because I remember on our trips, the trips to Tinley Park because you've been barking up this ink tree for at least as long as I've known you. You said that you think that Morelli keepers, you know, should be involved in these animals and that most Morelli keepers will be drawn to this animal. Why do you think that is? Why do you think so many of them have joined you kind of? Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Recently, about six months, I swear, everybody around me is just picking these animals up. Morelli, a guy, especially. And it just really just makes a lot of sense to me. These animals come from the literally the same place you'll find, you know, a carpet or, you know, a kind of girl or whatever. You will find a corresponding place on that. You must live in the same area. And so that's kind of, you know, we're all a sets of Australia. You know, so anything that comes in, we automatically have an infinity for. And then on top of that, you have something that is easy to take care of. And so, you know, really guys, snake guys in general, pretty lazy. I mean, hello, I'm apart of that group as well. So, you know, we don't have something that we have to feed every day necessarily, something that, you know, if you clean every day, that, you know, insects and all that stuff. You want something that's easy and these guys are that. And close through the badass man. So, there's a few reasons why I think, you know, crazy color, color ages. I think I count in 15 such species and species. I mean, that's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. So when something says blueth on, you know, it's like, okay, which one? It's just 15. You know, it's like this one you referring to, shingle bag. Okay, well, there's four such species of shingle bags. Which one are you referring to? So, there's a lot there to dig in. And then on top of that, you throw in localities to get it. You're looking at, you know, dozens of different, you know, different things you could collect. So, I think we're really, guys, our collectors, you know, that's one of them, really, because it's such a large unit that this kind of fits the same thing here. You could get a pair of each and, you know, you'll get pair of each, you have 30 animals, right? So, like, there's a lot to work with. Yeah. So, yeah, so there's lots to play with. And they come from different areas. So, you can tailor, you can find the right glueson for your situation, which is also kind of cool. You know, if you keep into animals, you know, they keep cauldrons, and ijes, and stuff, and maybe the indominals will be better cool, you know, if you keep diamonds, they blush would be right up their alley. So, you know, there's only the corresponding skinks for anybody who is interested. If you like scrubs, you're going to love Santa Barbara to guarantee you. You know, we're going to love those imported indomnesian animals, believe me, you're going to love them. Well, you see that things flying out of the tub coming at you, then, yeah, you're going to know why. Um, this is kind of off topic for a second, but I'm just curious, since you're saying that with the indonesian animals, are homoheras difficult to breeding captivity? Uh-huh, yep. Yeah, how about that? Actually, I don't really know. I know some people are producing indomnesians, I can't really tell you if there's a lot producing homoheras, not that I know it, I believe that they have been produced before, I believe they've been produced in Europe. But yeah, they're not easy to breed. None of the indigenous species are pretty easy to breed, other than the reefs, which happens to breed like IJ. So, there you go, IJ, IJ, um, carpets. So, right, so again, this is, the similarities are quite apparent. Once you start looking into these things, you're like, oh my God, like, this all makes a lot of sense. And, you know, even pattern-wise, you're kind of similar to where, you know, they both get eaten by birds, so you would think that they'll both have similar patterns. So, again, they're just super cool, they're legged, you know, python-like animals in a way, you know, they're flowing within, flowing towers, so they're easy to see, that's what I think. So, yeah, but homoheras, for sure, tend to be, you know, on the heart of the breed side. And actually, hardest to keep side as well. Yeah, and we'll get into that, I guess, when we talk about the Indonesian animals, Indonesia will tend to be a little more finicky than the Australian counterparts, just like with the content. So, with the more alien, or without anything else really, and that's really to do with their hydration needs and things like that. So, again, very similar. Mm-hmm. Cool. All right, so I guess we're going to try to break down this genus and sort of hit on what it's comprised of. I guess we'll start with the northerns. Are they the most popular in the states right now? Yeah, let's start with the northerns. I was going to try to break it up a little bit different than the westerning has it, but we'll just start there. All right, go for it. You know, how are we going to do it, man? We're going to do the northerns. Let's go to the website we're using as a reference today for everybody to follow along. That doesn't help them up until they're so species. So, like, northerns are related to easterns, which are related to, you know, Dana Bar. So, you know, I'd rather have those kind of groups put together. But, uh, so, just make it easy on me, so I remember it all. So, I think we're going to start with the westerns, then. They are hand-down, my favorite of the Australian species. They are Taliqua, Cipitalis. They come from the western, the south western part of Australia. So, you're looking at first, mostly, like in and around Perth, kind of extend up further in the western Australian area, and then over into South Australia, the no-over plane in there, and then all the way down to Adelaide. They're found in Adelaide. And all the way up you feel like in, like, England area. So, you know, you're Marley Darling and into Victoria and in parts of New South Wales as well. They're, they're really, really cool. They are decoys. They're about an average strike, bluestone. You're looking at the, what makes them really cool is they have this really deep black eye strike on their eyes, and the black nose, most of them do, anyway, and have really nice solid banding going down their backs between, like, a dark chestnut color, a chocolate brown, and then an alternative between that and, like, a clean to yellow color. They're incredibly beautiful. They're probably my favorite, and just aesthetically, they look gorgeous. Some of them can be really banded, and then you have some that kind of have this reticulated look where they have more of, like, a reticulated finite pattern, and those are pretty cool too. And now, they're just really neat. They're not, they're not even too common in Australia, but I know that they're definitely more common than they are here. And I don't actually know of anybody who actually keeps, except that that is at least publicly here in the United States. I'm sure they're here. I'm pretty sure they're here, but I don't know of anybody who is at least public about them having them, or, you know, anything like that. So they're kind of that enigma that everybody wants, you know, bad. I think a few were, like, you'll see a few for sale from Europe into the United States, like on Kigsnik, whatever, like for sale going to the United States, and it'll be a same price as, like, eight grand a pair or something crazy, and you'll never know. Yeah, you'll never know what happens to those animals. Like, they just, most likely they did come over, but you don't know who has them, you know. And most likely, they're not coming from the, the most reliable resources. You know, it's probably some smuggled animals to be truthful. Right. The Germany portal. Yeah, the portal. The portal that is Germany. Right. Yeah. So, which is the portal that is Hong Kong, but we're not going to get to all that. But, you know, there's a quite a lot. Yeah. You know, there is boats and things can go on boats, and they can go into harbor, you know that, right? Yeah. Yeah, stuff gets out. And that's the truth of it. So, I don't think we'll see some available yet. I think whoever does have them, I'm sure somebody's working on it, you know, is going to hold back whatever they produce because they do not produce a lot of babies. They produce anywhere from, you know, like seven to 10, kind of offspring, kind of smaller litters when you talk about blue thongs. So, they're not going to, you know, take over the world. They only produce once a year. So, and that kind of goes with all blue thongs. All blue thongs produce babies once a year. They're very seasonal. Right. You're not going to find blue thongs breeding all year round. It just doesn't happen. Now, their seasons can be shorter or longer, depending on the species. But, and it could be either in the winter or spring breeders. I guess just like Maria earlier, our pythons are. So, you know, it's, they're not something that you're going to be pumping out. So, there's nothing, they're not like a gecko where you're going to have like, you know, 10 clutches a year of two eggs or whatever. You're going to have one layer a year from your females. If you're lucky, right? Right. Which is another reason why I don't think that we see a lot of these rare stuff too often. And usually the animals that you get are older animals that, you know, are honestly probably way too fat, but that's another story. But, um, agree. So, um, so that's why we haven't seen these animals too often, I think. So, you have those, um, in general natural history of all blue thongs, you're looking at a ground dwelling animal that's roughly about 20 inches to 20, you know, about two feet long, a little bit less on the majority of them. Um, you have shorter legs, short legs, uh, roundstalkest, you know, stocky bodies, big heads, keep those in their body size. Um, they do not have sharp teeth, but they have crushing teeth. Usually for eating things like snails and, um, insects, they, they, very buffed muscles. Their jaw pressure is actually quite significant. Um, not very fast animals, although we have all seen videos of them kind of scurrying about, they could go pretty quick, but, you know, they're not meant for speed. Um, and the reason why their tongues are blue is for a defensive measure. They'll stick that blue tongue out. It surprises the, look, the predator, hopefully, and they'll able to slip away as the predator is kind of shocked about this, you know, blue is not a very common color in the wild. And so, anything that flashes that color is automatically seen as kind of, um, shocking. And so, most predators will hopefully have enough time for the blue tongue can scur down a hole or, you know, take off or whatever. Um, they will also huff and puff and hiss and it put on quite a threat display to protect themselves. And, and their first motor defenses can't vlog, their second motor defense is their bluff, and then after that, you know, it's down and dirty, you know, whatever they can do that to defend themselves. So that's why usually they're not very aggressive. You can have an aggressive animal, the other than biting you is very low. They're not a very biting type animal, which makes them a great pet. Um, and their leaf litter type dwellers, they stay on the ground, stand cover. Um, most, most days out of the year, they will bask in the morning and usually bask at night and, uh, right before the sun goes down and most, um, like most reptiles, they're most active in early morning and later in the day because in Australia, that middle part of the day is way too hot. And so there's spending most of your time either on the ground or, you know, on their leaf litter and staying cool. So the most active period is going to be in the morning generally. Um, now we look at an Indonesian animal that's something a little bit different. They're more active all day long because their temperatures are a little stable in Indonesia. Right. And that also correlates to animals in captivity as well. There's a difference in that in their activity levels and even throughout the year, you know, Indonesia animals tend to be active all year round. They tend to slow down a little bit, but active all year round. Well, the other guys, you know, will really shut down bermaid for the winter. So, you know, that's kind of a natural history. Uh, they eat anything. That's one thing that makes them kind of awesome pets is that they will literally eat anything you play in front of them. Um, I never seen a blue song, not eat something I put in front of it except maybe what a lot of people try to feed their blue songs, which is a lot of greens and vegetables and things. And they really don't prefer that. They will eat it if they need to, but they generally stay away from them. And in a while, it's the same thing. They're mostly looking for insects in a leaf litter, any kind of small, um, vertebrates. You know, they're looking for small, uh, you know, baby snakes, baby lizards, you know, they're looking for anything they can get their hands on. And then they pretty much overpower it, crush it, and eat it. Um, you know, my guys have eaten, you know, dead in the egg carpet pythons. Um, you know, so these are the types, you know, and that's stuff that they'll, if they'll find a baby carpet in a while, that's literally they'll tear it up and eat it, you know, and they can totally do that. Um, so they're quite interesting. Uh, they'll eat any kind of amphibian. They find, I mean, literally anything they find they'll eat their, their, um, uh, roadkill. They'll see them by roadkill chewing on some, you know, dead kangaroo or something. Then, um, they're known to, they're known to raid, uh, people's yards for a dog food bowl, like if you leave your dog food out, um, you often find, you often will see Bluetooth eating on your dog's food bowl. Um, so they're opportunistic. So they'll eat whatever they can. Um, and that kind of feeds into their dietary needs, which we'll get into in a little bit. But anyway, I want to throw that out there before I start going to each specific, specific one. That's kind of the overall, um, natural history of these animals is that they're leaf litter dwelling, ground dwelling, animals that will eat anything they get a hand on. And, um, yeah. So that is Western's also, uh, just, you're really cool. I can't wait to get one one day. Or at least you want to have never seen one in person. You know, hopefully one day I'll get to, um, maybe one will go Australian, who knows. But they are super cool. They are super cool. They are really neat. Um, after that, I guess we're going to hit on centrillion because they are quite similar to the Western's. And these are probably between the Western's and the Centrillion's. These are probably people's second favorite or first favorite. People love these guys. Um, and they are to legal multifasciata. Um, these guys are really neat. They're, they're a shorter stockier of the Blue Thorns. Um, they have a really wide head. Really deep black, uh, temporal stripe. I start to go from, uh, their eye back to the ear. They have a nice rich red color on their back, um, with, uh, orange stripes. And then they have, um, kind of this white on the sides and then the tail kind of fades out. Um, nice yellow heads. They're, they're just gorgeous gorgeous animals. And their proportions are quite interesting. Um, uh, it, they're just kind of like a stocky, you know, fact-cating school, you know, kind of love. You know, they actually, in terms of their body mass is quite large and their legs are actually quite small, um, compared to other Blue Thorns. They're, they're quite interesting. And, uh, something unique about them is most of the time when they stick their tongue out to, uh, absorb any kind of smells, they just stick, you know, stick it out, stick it back in. Well, these guys actually wag their tongues just like a snake does, which is actually kind of funny to look at, but they will wag their tongue. Um, and they're the only, they're the only such species that does this. Why? That's not too sure. They do come from quite hot desert. And maybe the tongue wagging helps in, in to collect more scent particles in the air because maybe it's harder to find food. Um, so that could be maybe a possibility. But that is something that is kind of unique to them. Uh, they come from the red sands of, uh, you know, actually they're, they're range. You're actually quite large from the bottom, the northern half, the western, western Australia, all of it through the northern territory, all we need to clean, we're in quite a big territory to guys cover. Um, and they're just, they're just really neat animals. They have, uh, low, low, uh, they don't, they don't produce that many babies, you know. Um, so they have a low affinity, but, uh, so they're a community. I do know that they are in a state. Um, actually, uh, Brian Barchek of BHB, um, actually had a sink either with a pair or a trio. I'm starting to think it was a trio you had at, uh, Finley. Did you really, recently picked them up? Yeah, he recently picked them up. I was able to feed them there. I wasn't able to hold him or anything but to cheat them. He recently picked them up and they're quite cool. Now, they looked, the ones he got, I don't know where he got them from, but they looked to be older animals, you know. So, you know, we'll see how he does them. I wish him all the best because, you know, the better everybody does the more chance I get to get one, you know. So, I wish him the best. But, but they, they did look like quite an old pair and they were quite overweight. So, um, you know, I hope he's kind of putting them on quite a, quite a weight loss plan or crash diet. Yeah, because I think that's, again, we're going to get into this, but obesity is a huge problem in blue-turns games. And, um, you could buy an obesity with, you know, not a feeding cycle, you know, not a cooling cycle like they should. You have a fat animal that doesn't want to breed, you know. We see, we see this constantly and we'll, you know, see it in Python's all the time. We're going to, you can see anything in any reptile or any animal in the world that we breed. You have something that's fat and maybe you're not going to, it's not going to breed for you. And, so, I don't know. I do wish him the best on those. Um, they are quite beautiful. Turns out they're really cool. So, they are here in the States and they're neat. I think a lot of people will compare them their favorites. So, you're pretty cool. Uh, after that, we're going to, uh, just a little bit of plant blotched. So, blotch glutons. I know these are the, what I consider the diamond vivons with, uh, the glutons. They live in the most southern areas of, of any glutons. Um, they range from, uh, really, New South Wales down to Victoria and all the way down to actually Tasmania. The only glutong that lives in Tasmania, they just live on the northern trip of Tasmania because anywhere else is just too cold there. But they aren't, they are in Tasmania. And, and as such, there's really kind of like three different phases of the look of, um, blotch glutons. And, and, um, you know, you have the alpine, the alpine glutons, uh, blotch are the ones most people are familiar with. They have a lot of high black on their backs and they have the rosettes of orange on their backs, which is, you know, orange or pink. They're beautiful, beautiful. And some people consider these to be the most beautiful of the glutons. And they have nice yellow jowl, yellow bellies, um, some nice yellow tipping all throughout the body, just gorgeous phase. Um, then you have the lowlands, which are a little more, they're more beige and brown. Um, you know, not as high contrast as the alpines are. And, um, yeah, that kind of makes sense. You have a, you know, you have a group animal that lives maybe lower down in elevation. They're going to be, you know, they don't need to be as, to absorb as much sun. Uh, because it's not as cold, like the alpines will be higher up in elevation. It's colder up there. They need to be darker to absorb more sunlight. That's where it's staying. So it makes sense. And then because many of these are actually really weird, they have this orange, orange head, like a nice orangey head. Um, sometimes they have really orange head, so many extreme variations. And they have like this, almost this olive green, you know, always drab type, type of look, khaki look to your body. And so they're really neat. They're probably my favorite, uh, lookality of the blotch would be the um, Tasmanian super, super cool animals. Yeah, they're pretty neat looking chase. Yeah, there, there's something, there's something cool, you know, those blotches are, are really, really neat. Um, and of course you guys live, you know, where very cold they could get, they could take very cool time. So, um, which is important to them breeding because they're going to be quite, quite a deep, um, a deep cool down in order for them to be successful in catchivity. Um, I know that, uh, King Lansing, he's having some good success with them. And then he has a, a few. I know that Jeff, um, has some, uh, so there's a few people who, who, who have the Alpine and are doing quite well with them. Um, and so there, there's a few that flow around every year. They'll meet a few for sale. They're not cheap. Um, nor there should be, I guess now. Um, because maybe they'll get maybe five or six available over here. So they're kind of, they're kind of expensive. But they're around, they're around. I got to, I got the whole one a few, uh, a few months ago at Amber and I, Amber got at White Plains. I met up with Diana over there, Diana Manson. They were to hang out with her. Uh, she just purchased them, a blotch, and they're phenomenal. Really, really cool. And I'm like, gorgeous, cool. So after the blotch, uh, we're going to do the shingles. This is actually quite a big group, maybe they're not. Um, there's four such easy to shingle bats. The main substance is being triliqua regosa regosa. They have triliqua aspera. Excuse me, triliqua regosa aspera. Uh, then you have the shark bay shingle bat, which is, uh, triliqua regosa palata. And then lastly, you have the rottenness iron ring shingle bat, which is, uh, triliqua regosa kinewi. Um, so you have four different sub-species there. The common shingle bat where we'll go to regosa is, um, it's pretty large. It's, they're, they have a little bit of a longer, kind of, um, upper portions, nice big heads. They're tails are relatively slender compared to the other, especially Christmas there. Um, and they're, you know, in, they're in and around Perth as most of their range. Um, and they're, they're beautiful. You know, the gold fields have, you know, nice, bright orange. And these, these guys probably have the nicest color of all the shingle bat, you know, brilliant orange, gorgeous, high contrast blacks and whites and queens. They're just beautiful, beautiful. Um, and then, you know, they have the aspera, which is the, so it goes, so like those are more fixed to the, to the western side of, of Australia. And then, you know, the, the aspera, which is on the eastern side. Um, aspera are what most people see as shingle backs. They're the ones that, you know, have a really fat pine cone like tail. Um, um, they tend to be really dark. They range anywhere from, you know, into Victoria all the way up actually. That's quite a large range. Um, they have a large range of any of the, of the shingle backs all the way down from Victoria all the way up to Queens. And they come in different varieties and different, uh, localities and some of the localities being quite large and some of them being quite small. Um, maybe there's you quite dark, have some white fluffing on the side and it kind of bleeds up on maybe some white, white stripes on the back. Um, they're, they're really cool, uh, animals. They're, they're probably my favorite and the shingles. Um, maybe islands are better back. And then you have the shark bays. Uh, the shark bays are, there's, there's a bay that's north of Perth. They call it the shark bay. I guess there's a lot of sharks to this, this bay. And in and around this bay is, uh, a substance of a shingle back. They're, they're somewhat isolated from, well, they are isolated. Um, they do workosa and they tend to have a pointier tail. It's almost like a carrot tail, long center tail, then the other shingle backs are in that, they're pretty much the same as redder that would go. So people like to argue that they're not even a substancey. So depends on who you ask. And then right off of Perth, you have a tiny island, uh, the rottenness island. And, um, there's actually a group of shingle backs that were there and they are the rottenness iron shingle backs or, with this, uh, canoey. And what's cool about these guys is olive drab look and some of them, some of the death examples of these guys are like olive green, like a green shingle back. They're incredible, incredible animals. And they're definitely, you know, they're definitely unique, not, not often seen, definitely never seen in the United States. Um, until, you know, everybody loves these guys. They're like, you know, I guess, I guess there's shingles with either pinnacle. These guys will be the pinnacle of the two. Like, is that making things in the top? Summer line, people will kill somebody for these things. Uh, they're amazing, maybe, maybe animals. And then just leave on that little island. Um, so yeah, so that's shingle backs, you know, this whole, they're, they're really cool. And, you know, they have the big, large armor, like, plate scales, um, that cover their whole body. Um, their, their McCallum is very slow. Um, they call the, they call them the lazy lizard and it makes sense every, if you ever meet one, um, they're not quick to move from here. She's quite, yeah. It's quite boring. Like, I, I really love shingles and I've been lucky to be around quite a few shingles. Um, and they're actually quite boring. They'll just sit there and not do a thing for hours and hours and hours. And, you know, it's like a snake. There's people waiting and that factors into what, you know, how, why people are having green calls with them is, they're lazy breeders as well. So it's hard to get them kind of in the mood. And I think a lot of, a long time, this idea that, you know, they, they care for life and all this type of thing. I think that that's kind of, I think most people are realizing that maybe not the truth or it is, it is kind of, there's some truth to it. They're not necessarily, um, if you have shinglebacks and you have a pair, when you're keeping them together all year round and you cycle them low, but not too low, you're not really getting them in the mood to do the debate. You know what I mean? You're even getting, you're not doing it. So what people are deciding is by introducing a third male, you're kind of getting the hormones going. And so I think a lot of people are having more success by using multiple males with a female kind of switching them in, switching them out, getting that first male kind of jived up and upset, you know, we do the same thing with clapping fair to negative breed. You know, competition is going to cause that one male to do business. So it helps the situation. So we're starting to learn that a little bit better. And we've actually had some quite a bit of success in the stage recently. I know that, uh, that case you place it produced for shinglebacks this year. I know that Jeff produced shinglebacks last year a year before. So shinglebacks are out there, they're being produced in the United States. The issue is nobody's going to give them up. Yeah, you know, that one, if you're super duper lucky, we'll have three babies. But even that is like, you know, ridiculously unlucky to have three babies. So people keep them. I would give them. I would never let them go. So yeah, and they're ultimately cut. And so yeah, they're so don't expect to be drowned with shinglebacks anytime soon. Mostly shinglebacks you'll see outside of Australia. Generally, you're not bred. You have a lot of shinglebacks in in Europe, but I must be curious. They're most likely have come into this country in quite illegal ways. So, you know, it's not saying whoever keeps shinglebacks in Europe is a problem, but you know, you trace those things back far enough, you'll be surprised when you find yourself. So just because you're not bred. So when you see like 20 shinglebacks or something and being sold over here in New York, right? But nobody's reading them much, right? It is. First, it gets you together. It kind of makes sense. So yeah, but they're out there. They're typical. And I guess after that we're at, we're going to go to the northern clade. So we're going to talk about this in Greece. So, so you have this group of animals, a group of blue tongues, the species and broken up to some sub species. North and to the northeastern part of Australia. All right. So, the first one is you have your eastern. Your easterns have quite a large range. They range all the way up to the tip of Cape York all the way down to the bottom of Victoria and Melbourne. So you can see like literally the eastern coast of Australia from the north finish out, all the way up the coast. And as a result, they have a lot of variability as you can imagine. To me, they remind me a lot of our coastal carpets because of how far range you may are that you're going to have a lot of variation in that. So, you know, in New South Wales, you have easterns that have a lot of black pigment on a lot of dark pigment. They got the really predominant eye stripe on their eyes, central streets. And, you know, these are the ones most sought after in the United States because these are the rarest of the easterns in the United States. So, and they're, to me, they're the most beautiful because they have the most contrast. They're really cool. And the eye stripe is, you can't beat it. So, they kind of extend all of the up. And then there's a little break in the Gulf of Coventaria. There's a break between them and then you go to your northern. So, you know what I'm looking at? You're looking at anywhere between the Kimberley's, uh, Barkley's Kimberlin's, you know, Darwin area, you know, that's where the northerns are. And the northerns are considered the largest of the blue suns. Definitely, they have these bodies, large, you know, big heads, big bodies, just very large skin. And they're gorgeous. They have blackened and orange pore holes down there, down the side. They usually have a quite a clear and, uh, clean head, clean front leg. And their back kind of really does kind of freckle out all the way down. And you have their extreme version of that, which is kind of your Kimberley with our northerns, which have like, almost like somebody just peppered their whole top of their bodies, including their heads with like this pepper speckling all the way down, the gorgeous gorgeous. They're probably, in terms of localities, you're probably my favorite region of calculus. It's going to be, uh, the Kimberlin Northern. It's just incredible. The northerns are probably the most commonly bred blue sun. Well, they are the most commonly bred blue sun, but I thought of, um, I thought of Australia. Um, and they are the quintessential blue sun when most people get them. They're readily available generally. And, uh, they've just been, there's quite a few, I'd say, um, lines of, of northern. Um, you have your caramel line, which I know way that I've, uh, kind of found in the caramel line, which he's looking, still looking to be, um, uh, too, uh, too positive albino, and things like that. And then you have, you know, Andrew Sykes and a sunset line would be very, very far, really vibrant orange, uh, northern, and they're pretty, they're pretty spectacular. Um, so they, they haven't quite a, quite a range as well in terms of looks. They're generally speaking, um, when you're looking at a northern, compared to an eastern, you're looking for black, heavy black portholes on the side, um, and a clean head. So that's kind of how you're gonna, you know, tell a different stream, let's say, in northern and eastern, and your body's importance is slightly different as well. So, um, so those guys are, uh, Kaliqua, Cincoides, and Chameleon, and those are their northern. Um, after that, we have, we have the tannabars. Uh, tannabars are actually related to the northerns and the easterns, even though they live on tannabar island, kind of like, you know, with scrubs. Um, yep, I was just gonna say that, are closely related to King Wornai, right? Right. Exactly. Then, then they are to the scrubs of Indonesians. The same thing with, with the tannabars. Um, you know, when the tourist street was filled, you know, less ice age, when the tourist street was filled in with land, of course, you had a lot more genetic, you know, they were, they weren't isolated, tannabar was not isolated. So, the Cincoides got less on tannabar when this tourist street got filled in with water, of course, after the end of the last ice age. And so, they got pretty much stranded there, but they are more, more closely related to, um, northerns and, uh, easterns as well. Um, now, what's cool about tannabar is, uh, first of all, they're, they're like one of my favorites. They're smallest of the main blues-ung receptivity, of course, but we'll talk about that later. There's, there's smaller ranges anywhere between 16 to 18 inches. They grow quite slowly, and they mature slowly as well. Um, they have a very high sheen, very glossy scales, because they come from a place that's quite wet. Um, so, the, the glossier your scales, if you look at reptiles and general, the glossier the scales, the more repellent they are towards water, right? That's why, that's why when you look at a, then a blood python, they're going to be way shinier than a carpet python, right? Because they're coming from totally two different areas. Um, same thing with tannabar. So, tannabar is a really high shine. They, they usually come in two phases. You have your classic, uh, silver phase, which is almost like xanox silver, white, um, maybe some beige in there, but very, very silver. And then you have your yellow or gold phase, which are bright, brighter yellow, yellow on the chin. And so there's, there's two different phases of them. Um, they're, they're really neat in that, they're quite, I don't want to say aggressive, but they're definitely defenses. Um, anybody who has keeps your tannabar will tell you they're quite spicy. They are the smallest of the main, of the main blue sons, but they are quite, they pack a punch. Um, uh, you know, they have, they're very muscular for their size. Um, you know, they're like, it's like, when you hold them, they're like feeling, it's like a brick. Like there's no fat there. They're, they're, they're muscle. And, you know, there's a lot of people question that. Why is that the case? Why are they so tough and everything? It's fine because they come from a tough place. And, you know, they're just badass little skinks and they're probably one of my favorites, probably because they're so, they're so mean. But they're, they are really, really, really neat. Um, and so yeah, they're also really, they're, they're equally so they're related. And I guess from there, we're going to go to, um, we're going to go, we're going to do next. I think we're going to touch on earring giants. Currently, I guess, and I remember, um, Nick Mountain having a question about, he doesn't understand a difference between an earring giant and marook or he doesn't get why there is a difference. And it is tricky. And I remember even saying that in this tricky kind of a situation, it doesn't really make too much sense. But I'll try to explain as much as I can, the difference between an earring giant and a marook. So, earring giant. Okay, let me see if I explain as well as possible. All right. So when Australia and Indonesia, Papua New Guinea were connected last ice age, there was, um, there was a genetic isolation. So you had, uh, interbreeding between the, the Indonesian species or types and the, uh, Australian type. So it was more, there was a gradient going up, right? Between Australia and Indonesia. Well, when the first straight got filled in with water, of course, after the end of last ice age, um, the more, in core these animals, the animals that are more related to the Australian animals got stranded on the southern tip or the southern edge of Indonesia or Papua New Guinea, which happens to look a lot like the Northern part of Australia. Okay. As such, they have maintained a lot of their Australian characteristics. Their stockier holds that in your tails, um, have stockier heads, have patterned more closely related, looking like an Eastern than it does, um, an Indonesian animal. And so they're kind of in this kind of weird hybridization zone or integrate zone. And so they're not quite synchronized, at least they're not, they actually are not even given, um, classification yet because of how little information about them there is. But, you know, they're not quite Indonesian, but they're not quite Australian. They're like, they sit right on that edge. Um, so they're, they're quite, they're quite common. They're a way more common in the past. Um, right? So that's why there's a lot of in, there's a lot of Audrey's older, Audrey's being floated around there. Um, some people think they're just a hybrid of Easterns to in biggest that has been, or Indonesian animals that have been sold to us. There's a lot of theories out there about what an Audrey is. I personally believe that it is the last remnants of Cincoides on the island of Indonesia or the island of Papua New Guinea. Does that make any sense? Yeah. Yeah. So they're a last stronghold as, you know, they're going to be sitting in the last band of planes, grassland, like, you know, you can look as far as, that's where they are. Um, do that last stronghold of Cincoides on that island. Um, then Maroose, which is, uh, to liquid gigas, uh, as an ensigns, are actually very closely related while they, they have some Cincoides traits. You know, you can look at them on a roof, right? If you look at them on a roof, they have some Cincoides traits. They have a, uh, bald head, generally speaking, bald heads are very Cincoides traits. Um, they tend to have a lot more white on their front legs than other gigas animals or other Indonesian animals. Um, they tend, uh, not to be as humanity, uh, dependent. So they are quite robust in that they can really look quite dry and they really can look quite wet. They're kind of in that intermediate zone. And, and if you look at the way they range, they have a quite a large range from southern, um, in an immediate, into, or southern public, getting into, uh, the eastern side. So they're, you know, Port Mosey and Maroose, all those areas have, have Maroose in them. And so what Maroose are, are that natural integrated zone, right? They're fit right in the middle between what Cincoides was and where gigas is, gigas being an Indonesian type. They fit right in that middle. They skirt that line as such, they have traits pretty much equally between Cincoides and gigas. Man, maybe more lean on gigas hence why they're a part of the gigas family, but they kind of sit in that intermediate zone, um, which in my opinion makes them the best pets for a lot of reasons, um, because they are quite tolerant when you compare them to their Indonesian brothers and sisters with cousins. And then when you compare them to their Cincoides, they don't have to bring me as deep because they kind of skirt on that middle that makes any sense. Right. So, you get me? All right. So that's, so that's different. So if you look at the routine in Maroose and, and then IJ, and IJ are going to have more Australian traits in layman's terms, Australian traits, and the, the groups are going to have more Indonesian traits. And that's how you see the difference. But what's great is they both can come in the same package from all, uh, from Indonesian imported, you know what I mean? So like, Wow, cramp. So the question comes from, they're not, they don't, um, identify them as two separate things, even though everybody can see that they're clearly two separate things. Um, even, you know, the head scalation is different. There's a lot of differences between them. They're often just sitting here in a box, there's like little blue phones and so whatever comes up in the watch. So, um, that's, that's the confusion. That's the confusion there. And also, confusion in the names. I mean, IJ, Nigerian giants, and it's kind of named this not class of an animal, it's kind of vague. I mean, it's not telling anything about what the animal, what the animal really lives or, you know, it's kind of, that's the whole half of the island's Indian giant or used to be called the Indian giant. You know, so it's not very specific. That's where the confusion happened. And, and the monkeys here, they do live right outside in the roof. But they also extend, extend all the way to the eastern side of the island into, into Port Moseby and beyond. So, again, just like with Kajaro's, we're in the roof, so actually living in the roof, this is the same kind of issue that we have with these guys, is that the information is not very concrete or studied by. And so, we're left with just kind of a best educated guess for what we can tell from a thousand miles away. I'm sure you guys do, I mean, you guys experienced that with, with the experience that with Kajaro's as well. We have confusion about where these animals come from and the different types of them. Now these conjures, same thing with the scrubs, you know, we're very confused. Like, okay, when, when does, you know, this become that or what, when is that integrated? When, you know, nature is not that simple. Nature doesn't read a book, right? So, you know, they're coping. Now, I was going to say in a lot of times, like with the, when it comes to localities, I mean, I heard Daniel and the Tush saying this one time about conjures. Technically, you could be in one area, you know, and if you're on this side of the river, you're in one locality, if you're on the other side of the river, you're on a different locality. So, I guess it's how, how, how, you know, micro locality do you want to go and that type of thing, but right. Yeah, so in the terms of the hobby and stuff, we like to keep them separated. So, we don't muddy the water essentially. Right. And, and there are some, you know, animals coming out of, coming out of Indonesia that look like halfway between an IJ and a marook, like being literally halfway. And people are like, wow, we're going to, well, they're in the roots. We're going to call them the new type marook or, you know, they'll label them something. And it's like, well, guys, you know, you don't think that somewhere in an Indonesian farm, these are not all this fucking append and some breeding didn't happen. Like, you know, like these things happen over there. You can't just like assume that there's a new locality just because it came from Indonesia and it looks slightly different from other things. You can't just start labeling things. So, it gets tricky. I like, that's why when I look for, like, I want to be looking for Tana bars very soon. And we often see Tana bars coming out of Indonesia that look quite not like Tana bars. They look kind of weird, but are labeled Tana bars. When I look, when I look to get into a new species, a new species of animal, I'm looking for the quintessential animal, that animal that reads nothing but that animal, because guess what? That's going to help me keep those lines pure in the future. Like, I don't want an IJ that kind of looks like a marook. Or a marook that kind of looks like an IJ. See if I plan on doing roots and IJ separately, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, you want the textbook of that animal. Right. So, exactly. I want this animal, so that way I know at least I'm starting. Yeah, I can make that thing totally whacked out pattern-wise. But I know at least I started with something that clearly is a marook, or clearly is an IJ, or clearly is a key island, that's what I think. So, so that's the kind of marook IJ controversy. Technically, scientifically, scientifically, IJ is going to exist. So, something, whatever you want to, you know, whatever you kind of, your view on that, is your view on that. Just like, technically. You want to look at it, you know. Stop it. IJ carpets, you know, I don't exist because the person who named them happens to be a douchebag, but, you know. Well, that I will drink to. Wow. Reminiscent of the ICAST, geez. Right. Exactly. Right. Like, how does it name those animals? Like, we still use carrots and I, but, look, the otters. Like, we really wish somebody else had him. We really, she didn't have to. Yeah. So, really don't want to do it. Yeah. So, it's like the same thing, exactly. Now, do you see, this is just a question in between, do you see, like, similar blue clunks kinks up in the northern part of, of Indonesia, or is it only in the southern part? Well, this is where we get into our next sub-season. Oh, okay. I should have been brilliant. Great, great segue way. So, hopefully, we plan this. So, we're going to talk about the main Indonesian animals, which are tiliqua gigas, gigas. So, this is the founding animal, at least the first animal that was classified in this group. And this is what we consider, at least in the hobby, to be the classic Indonesian, um, blue toma. A lot of black on the head, a lot of black through the body, a lot of black on the legs, um, sometimes solid black legs, some of the best ones, um, peppering all throughout the back, a lot of black on the tomb portals, just covered in kind of this black slacking, that if you look at them with, you know, some of them, actually, if you look at them, kind of look like a jungle carpets in a way, that kind of like yellow and black, um, variation, and it makes sense. These guys live in the jungle. They live in tropical environments. It, the dappled sunlight type of thing to help with the camouflage, it makes a lot of sense. Um, these guys range all the way, they do interbreed, or at least on the, because, you know, there's, there's the, um, mountain range that goes through, and then, uh, it goes through the poplin' to get in. So, they go, not only are they on the west and the side of the island, um, kind of close to where Meruki is, but not quite north of that. They expand from there all the way north, um, and around the mountain, actually, to be on from the southern edge of the mountain as well, um, southern, uh, the northern edge of, uh, poplin' to get in, and then they also are on various islands throughout that part of, part of Indonesia. So, you know, you, this is where the famous, you know, not the famous, but the one locality we know we do have in, in, in Indonesian is the howmahara. Um, everything else, we don't really know where it's coming from, but we do know that these animals are originated from howmahara. So, you can tell the difference between howmahara, um, Indonesian, and just what we consider a classic Indonesian that comes from wherever we don't really know, but other parts of Indo. Um, and so, howmahara do live on howmahara island. I guess we can kind of touch these. These guys are really neat. Lots of dark black pigment, um, on their legs, on their bodies, and then they have this chestnut orange on their backs, all the way down their back. They can sit out into brown as they go older. Um, so, sometimes, you know, some people don't, they're not their favorite, but, you know, I think some of, of these guys are absolutely gorgeous, um, because of that contrast between orange and black is so nice. Um, these guys also, you know, obviously come from howmahara. And so, these are actually becoming quite popular. Um, and the reason why is for some reason, unless, I don't know, probably a year or so, a year or two, they've been imported like gangbusters, howmahara. Um, why I don't know, I don't know if there's some, a new place set up in howmahara, like a new exporter set up. I don't know the reason why, or new collectors, maybe go in the howmahara more often, which you would think that you would see more howmahara scrubs, if that's the case, or whatever, but it's strange that we're getting so many of these howmahara blue tongues, but they're flooding the market, really, that it's quite a lot of them. Um, well, fortunately, what I find is that the howmahara are probably the hardest of the blue tongues to keep, um, because they're so hydration, dependent. They need a lot of hydration, a lot of water, and you need a lot of humidity, or they go straight up, get sick. There's no doubt about it, there's no kind of like badges, badges, badges, I mean, they'll get straight up, get sick, they need it. Um, and that's unfortunate because a lot of people buy this animal, sticking in a tank, in their living room, on like, you know, care fresh, or aspen bedding, or like, you know, whatever, and expected to do just as well as a northern blue tongue, well, when it's just, it just won't, it's totally two different animals coming from toys, two different parts, or ecosystems, so they just don't do well. So I try to, if anybody is looking to get a blue tongue, like, I try to see them away from howmahara is at least for a beginner, because, no, they're not easy. And of course, they're coming to import, as the guy knows, what they're coming in with, you know, whatever parasite, or, you know, definitely might, you know, that's what I think. Um, so, so, that's, that's howm, in and of itself. Very cool species, nice, bright, orange eyes, gorgeous, gorgeous animals. Um, and they're really cool, they're quite popular, but again, they're, they're difficult to take care of. Um, if you're classic, and, and I guess the last, I got two more, we got the Key Island, which my personal favorite, my personal favorite, all of them, all of them a lot. Um, keys are interesting, they, they come from, well, the K islands, it's still slightly different. So K-A-I, in Indonesian, so it's a little, little different. We call all the Key Islands, or the K islands, however you want to say it. Um, just the little islands off the, south of Papua New Guinea. Um, and they also live on Eru Islands too, which is actually quite interesting. Um, so they, they live on that area. And I think, I, I think that what we're getting mostly, in the Key Island imports, is we're getting Eru Island animals. It just makes sense to me. Why would they go to Key Island? Nothing's on those little islands, other than key, you know, a few blue towns, and some birds and stuff. There's not really much reason to go there, but there's a lot of reason to go to Eru Islands, right? You have Congo there, you have scrubs there, you have blue tongues there, there's more there, there's, you know, where they're going to go, where it's easier to collect. And I think that's why we're seeing, um, at least Key Islands that used to come in, are quite different than Key Islands we're seeing now, which is, which is interesting. Um, if you look at bluethongscings.net, and you look at the Key Island page, um, you have some of these animals that are quite green, that um, their patterns have faded out quite a lot. You don't see that way too often anymore. Um, you get more of the types that are on the, at the bottom of the page, which are more of these kind of, they look a little more, I don't know, they kind of have like portholes on the sides, flames coming up. They're just slightly different. They look, that's more of what we're getting, to put it to the old, good stuff that we were getting before, at least, you know, 20 years ago or so. So it, it's, it's interesting where are they collected on now. I'm not too sure, but I'm, I guess what the area on is where they get from. Um, what's cool about Key Islands is they have super shiny sales, super shiny glossy, um, their islands are quite wet and rainy and scrub-like. Um, and as a result, their pattern has become something different. Um, if you look at the pattern, the pattern has pretty much blown out in a way. It's kind of freckled out, granity type of look. Um, when they're all born, they're born looking like any other individual down there. And as they grow, their pattern starts to change and alter. And by the time they're adults, you know, you could, some of them, you could barely see what pattern they used to have, and they have become these kind of freckled animals. Um, they, they all tend to have a white nose, which is pretty funny, and white lips, but everything else is just covering freckles. Um, and they're really, really cool. These guys are kind of difficult to take care of. Um, kind of like the home heroes, these are another ones that are not as easy. Um, because of their hydration issues as well, they need it to be quite humid. They'd go off to you like that because they comfort a very wet environment. Um, and as a result, you gotta at least give them access to a humid area or humidity in order for them to thrive for you. And I have respiratory eye issues and mysterious illness type of thing going on with them. Um, and they're just really neat. I, I find them, again, like all blue tongues to be quite prone to overeating. And I think that about 90% of pictures, they'll see of these guys. They're way too fat. Um, and that goes to Indonesians in general. Indonesian blue tongues do not store fat the same way, um, Australian blue tongues do. They don't need to. They live in, they live in tropical paradise. They don't need to store fat the way a blue tongue that lives in the middle of the desert needs to. They don't. Um, they have access to generally all the time. They're a little more active. If you look at their leg length, their leg length is longer than most of the Australian blue tongues. Um, they tend to be a little more active. A little more have higher prey drives. And it just makes a lot of sense that they would be that way, um, in a place in a tropical island. It would have to be a little more, um, less for, you know, their ecology is different than some, some of their lives in Australia. Um, and that's why their husbandry has to be different or they will not work out the same way. Um, and so these guys tend to not be, they tend to be maybe a little pickier when it comes to food. Um, some of the Australian stuff will literally eat anything, you know, including vegetables and things. These guys, they're not going to touch a vegetable. They're just not. Unless you coat it in pig fat or something, they're not going to eat it. Um, because in where they live, they don't need to. They don't need to eat vegetables when there's bugs of plenty or food of plenty. They don't need to eat something that's so low in nutrition. They don't need to do that. So why would they? Only Australian animals would have to, in the worst kind of scenario, have to eat vegetation only because they have to. And that's, that's how when we get into dietary issues, that's kind of the difference there. Um, but geology is super cool. Some of my favorites, um, and they were super rare up until about like three years ago. And- Well, they always came in. Yeah. I think the word got out that everybody's really wanting them. And boom, less than a year later. You know, they're now, the prices are staying kind of higher than all the other stuff. But now they're almost like, if you want one, you can get one. They're not that hard anymore. So they are really cool though. Really cool animals. And the last, I guess we'll just touch on real quick. Just, just, we're not really talking about them like just the pygmy bluethone. Um, which they're characterally around at, atelades. I believe I've said that right. Um, and they're like super small, um, they're like six, seven inches, like tiny little thing. They live in the ground. They're only related to bluethone through genetic testing and stuff. They, they're, they're our bluethone. They're just super small. They kind of live in this kind of niche where they live on the ground and stuff. So, um, I hear that in Australia, they're now, um, they, they're super endangered because they have such a small, um, territory. And Australians have just recently now that you can keep them and breathe them in captivity now. And they're some in captivity now. So we'll see them. I have a feeling they're gonna be around very quickly in a few years. We'll see them around. So, but that's pretty cool that they're, they're now in the hobby because for a long time they were not. So, pretty cool. So that's, that's the crux of the, of the, you know, the group. Um, it's quite a lot, you know, any questions, please give them to me, but that's kind of the idea. So I get, for most people, just understand that there's an Indonesian half, not even half, maybe an Indonesian force. And then there's, you know, 35% live in Australia. So that's, there's kind of separation there. Um, if you're looking at their, their prehistoric past for what it seems is that they migrated down into Australia, just like every other reptile men. And then once being isolated in Australia, evolved into all the different forms that we've seen now, um, that's the kind of crux of it. So if you want to see, you know, probably things like, um, the gigas or Indonesian animals are probably more, um, basal in terms of the species. Um, they're probably more like the ancestry, uh, ancestral blue tongues. Um, it just makes sense being that the way they travel down into Australia and then colonize, mostly if not all of Australia at this point. So, um, yeah, just like any other animal that, you know, blue tongues, a lot of people think blue tongues, ah, Australian, right? They all, yeah, they all Australian, but most of the human animals came from somewhere else. So, um, yeah. No one point or another. Mm hmm. Huh. Okay. Cool. Um, the one question that I would ask is that, um, the, uh, is there, is there intergrade zones, like what you see with, say, a coastal carpet and a diamond python? Is there, is there places where they overlap to where, um, you get these sort of in betweeners or does that, um, absolutely. Um, watch have been known to interbreed with etherans, which have been known to interbreed with single bags, which have, like, they, yeah, so similar to what you say. Okay. Absolutely. They all integrate. Now, whether or not these integrated animals are reproductively viable is another question. You know, I would think that shingles and etherans would be far enough to move that they can't produce, but I don't, I don't know, um, could every 25% single eastern causes out there? I'm sure. Like, why not? Like, I'm sure it's the case. I mean, there are actually blue tongue, um, sort of, deleterious, which is another genus of skink on the island. And there is nicks between diamond and blue tongue, like, straight hybrids of different genus. So it's totally possible. I don't see, you know, which are weird looking. Yeah. Like, really weird. I expose, they have interbreed with e-gurnia genus as well. Like, yeah, they just integrate. Oh, man, that's like Carponcho territory. Oh, my God. Wandering out that for? No, that's, that's worse than Carponcho. That's like, uh, that's like a, like, like a green tree and a blood bite, huh? No, like a, like a super bite or something. That's just like a bowling. Yeah, that'd be like a bowling, like, uh, Stimulus Python call. Oh, wow. Hell, how would you never mind? I don't even want to think about that. Okay, maybe not that bad, but it's pretty bad. That's, that's horrible. And they say, yeah, and they produce viable young now. I don't know if they're reproductively viable, the young are, but it's pretty amazing. So yeah, there is integrates, they don't integrate as much as you, as, let's say, carpet soup. Right. Um, but they will interbreed. There's, you know, so that does happen. Okay. Which is why if you look at the Northern, at the Northern Eastons, like the Eastons are the Northern, um, you know, like in the Northern part of their range, they look very closely related to Northern. Well, that's because, um, at one point there was, there was an integrated zone there that now has been cut off by, for whatever reason, but there wasn't integrated in there. Right. Just like there was an integrated zone in Indonesia and I'll show you. And that's why we have, you know, the roots. Um, right. Yeah, absolutely. They do integrate. Absolutely. Okay. Cool. All right. That one's all you. Cool. Um, but now that we know what the healthy things are, let's get into some captive air. Uh, can you talk about how you, uh, set up these guys in, uh, your collection and how you would recommend somebody else set up something in their collection? I guess we're going to make a distinction between a breeder's set up and a keeper's set up. Okay. Um, which, which I guess, you know, if you're keeping one from somebody in your house, there's a pet because these are the ultimate pet reptile. They're great. Big, you know, they're great. So you're not going to want, you don't need a rack system to keep your blue gun if, if you only pet you have, you know, so I'm going to explain how I keep as a breeder, but then also how that can be changed to somebody who keeps as just a keeper. Right. And the differences and the similarities in that, you know, and also, most of what I'm going to say is Indonesian base, but I have kept Northern, that's what I started with, so I won't touch on that as well. But, um, is there a big difference between keeping the Australian and the Indo? Um, big difference? Uh, not so much, but there are, I guess that we'd like, okay, so the difference between keeping all strong and the Indo would be that there's between keeping a carpet and a condro that makes any sense. Okay. Similar, yes, very similar, but different in the way. But they still have better and different things to get to. Right. Exactly. Yeah, you could keep an Indo like a, like an Australian, but it's not going to be the best and it's going to suffer for it. And so, um, so I guess, you know, I'm going to talk about Cajun first. I guess it's probably the biggest thing. Um, yep. I personally keep in racks. I know that that's, it used to be very controversial about, you know, three years ago, she's like, she's like, we're rapidly changing our ideas about how to keep these animals. I think because people are becoming more vocal about how they probably always have caps, but now because of the popular area flu times are finding the voice, I guess, if that makes any sense. So, I would say that a lot of breeders do keep in racks. Obviously, what racks afford you is the same kind of benefits that racks afford you with, you know, you're looking at easy to clean, you know, space saving, all that security, everything that it will apply to the snake also applies to the skin. Things are not, um, they like security. They live on the ground. They like to hide on the thing. And when it makes sense that a rack, it would be something that they can live in. So, at least we'll get that out of the way, you know, they're not tree climbing animals. So, there's no need, necessary to have a two foot tall cage. Doesn't make sense. Or even a foot tall cage should be on it. They stay on the ground, generally. Okay. Now, I keep them in CB 70. So, what you would keep a carpeting, well, or a small carpeting way, you know, CB 70 is what I keep. I mean, keeping them in CB 70s for about two years now, and they've been fine. Perfect, love it. What, what it allows me to do is it allows me to keep a gradient that I feel is important for the animals I'm working with, which is going to be used. I would say the first thing you have to do before you get a blue time of your pet, or even a breeder, is look at the situation you have in your leftover now, or even the situation you have in your house if you're going to keep it just, you know, in your house. And pick a blue tongue that's going to be best suited for the situation you're putting more. Because there's quite a variety and you can pick the perfect skink for your situation. If you live in Florida, and you constantly have high humidity, and you have a reptile room that constantly stays in the 80s and everything else, well, Indonesians are going to be more your gig, right? If you have a dedicated reptile room that you keep in the 80s, well, Indonesians are probably going to be more your gig. If you have a room that drops down to room temperature, even lower, or you keep stuff in the garage, well, maybe you're going to have one that has a little more cold tolerant. It's going to be a little more tolerant of changing temperatures and changing humidity. So you're going to want maybe another one, or you're going to want maybe even a blotch, or you're going to have to be confined one, or maybe an eastern, something like that, that's going to be a little more tolerant. So that'll be my first thing. As a result, I think that if you're just a pet keeper, if you're someone who keeps your house, yeah, you can go and get yourself a hammer here. But if you don't have a preference, I do not suggest it. I do not suggest anybody to get a classic Indonesian hammer here, or a key island, if you plan on keeping this thing in your room temperature room, not interact in these regions. They like high humidity. Your screen top is not going to provide the high humidity with animal needs. The temperature is you're going to have some subjective animal in order for it to keep the core body temperature optimal, where it wants to be, are going to be much higher because your room temperature is much lower. Does that make sense? Blue tones, I'd like to be in the low 80s to mid 80s as a core body temperature. Kind of similar to Python, maybe a little warmer, but that's kind of their, that's what they're aiming for. When a blue tone goes and sits on the basking spot, it's getting its core body temperature to low 80s, and then it's moving off that basking spot. Then it's going back on. Then it's moving off, and it's thermal regulating to keep its core body temperature at the 80 to 85, or around there, low 80s. So if your room is 75 degrees, that's what that animal is going to have to basking more often, and for a longer period of time, in order to keep its body temperature at that low 80 temperature. Does that make sense, right? We all know that. So in Indonesian animals, animals that suffer from dehydration and need high community requirements, putting them basking all day is not going to help them because their core body temperature is going to be negative, but their surface centers are going to be much higher than that, which is going to draw out their skin, which is going to draw out their cage, which is going to cause them respiratory issues and other issues. So to me, it's harder to use a tank with overhead heat like a heat lamp and try to raise Indonesian in a tank. It's hard. It's not easy. It's possible, but it's not easy. So for a day that I do not suggest that temperature-wise, I shoot for my room temperature in my room anywhere from 78 to about 84 doing summers by 84. I get a little warmer during the summer. So it's between my hot spot to set at 90 degrees. Now, a lot of people would say that's too low. A lot of people like to keep their basking temperatures between about 95 when it comes to blue cones. I can get away with it because I keep my room warm. So they're not experiencing temperatures below 75 degrees on the regular, so they don't need to thermal regulate that drastically. So it affords me to be able to move low temperatures because I am shooting for that optimal temperature, which happens to be the same kind of temperature range that is in Indonesia. They don't get very cold, and they don't get way too hot. It kind of stays right in that mid-80s, and so that's what I try to shoot for. Now, the Australian species like in order, you can swing that wildly, really. You can have a basking spot set to 100 degrees if you really want to do. I wouldn't suggest that. I would suggest that you're going to keep your room temperature firm, shoot for 95 degrees. I know it's 90 and 95. I know it's lower than a lot of people like you use, but I think we oversee our animals from top of over feeding. Something that's really funny, people are very acupial. So I would lower that basking temperature down to about 90 to 95 degrees. If you're in a room temperature room, you're looking at a basking light. My first thing is heat panels. We do know heat panels, for me, it doesn't dry out the air as much as let's say a basking light all starts. So in that situation, you want about 90 to 95 in a hot spot, and then down into the room temperature on the other side of the cage. My situation, I'm shooting for an 82 room temperature, and about a 90 degree hot spot. So you're just shortening that temperature gradient. It's really fun. It's really fun. Actually, with the individual stuff, when I first got them, I know people I just want to stop it because it works, but I prefer to give them the gradient. I was keeping them. I tried it out for about nine months. I kept them straight ambient temperature in my room. Because at the time, it was summer when I first got them, and my room was 84 anyways. I was like, you know what? I'm going to keep them ambient and see how they do. They did great. They did fine. I mean, these were endos, by the way, but they did great at that temperature. Not suggesting that. But this is the temperature they're shooting for. They're shooting for the low 80s, as they're all for the temperature. Very similar to vitamins. So that's where you're looking at. Substrate wise, there's some people who like to use this thing. My go-to substrate is cypress mulch. One, because these animals are semi-fossil oil. They like to dig. They like to be understuffed. The cypress mulch allows them to dig. I like to put a few inches of it in there, so they can dig real deep. They want to get down underneath it. Now, if we all show and stuff, it works because it does dry out quite quickly, like a tank set up or a very ventilated area. It will dry out and work fine for all show and stuff. But if you miss it regularly, it will also retain humidity quite well as well, and if you did. So it's me, it's the best. I don't like Aspen. I know a lot of it because we use Aspen. I specifically do not use Aspen because I find it to be really dusty, and you'll have your stinks sneezing all the time. To me, it's just never worked out for me. I had a lot of sneezy animals when I used it. And then Care Fresh is just too dry. Care Fresh is that, you know, it is right that crumple bus. It's kind of a ground up egg crate trap, right? Yeah. That absorbs every moisture. It will absorb moisture out of your room, dude. This stuff is like crazy absorbent. It's good for cleanup, but it will suck moisture and humidity right out of the air. I don't like using that stuff, you know. So yes, with cypress hives, I put hives. And, you know, all you take for instance to hide under and a nice, large water bowl. These animals drink a lot. They drink a lot. From the Australian skulls to the animal, these stuff, they love their water and they will drink it. So I like to provide a nice large water bowl so they constant, you know, obviously. And that's pretty much it. That's the setup, man. Very simple. Give them a nice warm spot from the bass and let them, you know, give them 12 hours a day. It'll be 24 hours. You only need for half the day, daytime. And that's it. Cut it out at night. And that's been cooled down at night. In terms of lighting, this is like it's for the UVB. This is not UVB thing. Comes about. Yeah. I'm on the no UVB side of this debate. I keep in racks. So obviously, you know, you can't put UVB in your racks. And there's a lot of this one concurizing. Not as much as you used to do, but there's some controversy around it. If you're keeping it at a tank, if you want to put a UVB bulb over your tank, fine. It's not going to hurt. Certainly not going to hurt. It's going to be necessary. Depends on what you see. And I see what I consider a balanced diet that has plenty of vitamin D3 in it. So UVB allows reptiles to absorb that radiation. And synthesize vitamin D3 from their skin. And then use that to then be able to convert calcium into bone and things like that, right? That's the whole idea behind UVB. So if you don't have D3 in your system, you might either provide it through UVB or through dietary supplements. What I end up having is they cannot process the calcium in their bodies, hence not being able to rebuild their bones, causing weak bones, causing kinks, causing problems. We don't want that. That's called metabolic belly disease. We don't want that. In order to get away from that, you'd have to supplement the diet or give them UVB and supplement the diet. That's where a lot of people go on. UVB is a UVB bulb is so unlike the sun, which is one thing I get in the argument all the time. It's trying to replicate something that's not, you cannot replicate. You cannot replicate. You can do a start. You can try the best you can, and it will allow your animal to absorb, to be able to synthesize some vitamin D. It will. Will it give it enough? No, it will not. Guarantee it will not. You will still have to supplement on top of the UVB. But to me, part of the thing is, in my mind, unnecessary. If I have a couple minutes, even though I am giving them the UVB, that's the point. Keep it simple. Doesn't help? Yes, it does. Isn't that necessary? No, it's not. That's a UVB debate. It goes forward and back. People have done, like a little test at home, breeders have done tests where they've raised a group of babies on nothing but UVB, raised a group of babies on nothing but D3 supplements, and then raised a group of babies on both UVB and D3. Guess what animals did the worst? Had spanibog bone problems. The ones was just the UVB. They have to be both. They either need only the D3, or they need both UVB and D3. For me, I just get rid of the UVB. And keep it easy. Forget about it. Yeah. Now in saying that, I do keep in racks, and these are diurnal animals. What that means is, make sure you're picking racks. They're going to let a lot of light sting. Things like vision tufts, vision racks, things like the economy racks from animal classes which have open sides. Some things that these animals are not in the dark. That's not good for them either. Because these are diurnal animals, you want them to have a light cycle. Even if you just turn on lights in your room and have your room lights on a timer, some things that they can experience a light cycle. You don't want them sitting in the dark. I know a lot of people like to keep your snakes in dark too. I don't even prefer that. But these guys especially, they will not do well kept in the dark. It's just not good for them. So you want them to have that cycle. But in terms of the UVB radiation, I haven't had a need for it. I haven't seen a difference in keeping them without. And so that's kind of where I'm at in that debate. But if you feel like you need it, use it. But please continue to supplement them with dietary D3 because they will need it. That will not be enough. No matter how big of a bulb you get, it will not be enough. It's not simulating the sun as well as it should. So that's why I do this D3. And it's funny because even things, but you would think you absolutely need UVB no matter what, people are finding don't. For instance, day geckos. Day geckos for the longest time. If you have UVB, your day gecko is going to drop dead. It's not going to do well. You gotta get it. What I'm finding is a lot of people who have gotten away from UVB are using more and more D3 supplementing rather than UVB because it just doesn't do enough. Even people who are keeping your matchsticks. I mean, a sun-loving African desert animal, people are not even using UVB for those animals. It's quite amazing actually. So I'm just staying away from it. And that's kind of my thing. But hey, it won't hurt. And it may help. So that's why I hold the bait. So that's why that's caging. I guess the guess now is what? Diet. Diet. You already hit it on a little bit, but like it says like you do a natural diet versus a commercial diet. There's a debate even with that. So you kind of mentioned supplementing. So yeah, so the natural diet versus the natural diet. And I do that as I'm doing air quotes. Natural diet versus the commercial diet. Which pretty much means insects, meat, vegetables, fruit versus like dog food plus other stuff. I'm in the dog food camp. Okay. Dog food has been engineered to be a complete diet for dog. Which happened to be opportunistic predators. It kind of just fits. A lot of dog food has a lot of meat in it. Some vegetable matter, some fruit matter in it. So when you look at the makeup of dog food and you look at the what the makeup of what the gluten foods are eating in the wild, they're very similar. So the point where it's like almost one for a working wheel, you're like, oh man. So the exact percentage of vegetables that are in this dog food is the exact percentage of vegetables that we find in the gut floor of wild blue tons. It's kind of amazing how that's kind of worked out. You know, people say it's lazy or whatever. I guess we're going to get into that. But dog food to me has been engineered to be a complete diet for dogs, yes. But happens to work very well for blue tons. Now in saying that, I use dog food then supplements that dog food with reptile based dietary supplements. So I personally use calcium plus high D. It is made by Ripashi. So it's calcium plus multivodiments. And on top of that, it has an extra dose of vitamin D3 in it. And I use that on every meal. It's meant to be used for every meal. It's engineered that way. So it's just easy for me. I just dust. I read meal. I give them. And that's it. There's no guesswork. There's no schedule. There's no nothing. That's it. Dust it. Give it. Done. And I've been feeding them that way. I've been raising blue tons that way for about four years now on that stuff. And it's been working great. I mean, it works fine. I haven't had a problem with it. And it's super easy. Because the other way you can do it is supplementing dog food as you can do calcium D3 some day, multivitamin, supplement every meal every week. And it's just too much. I really have to learn that it's engineered to be used daily. So that way it's easy for me. I have to, I take out the guesswork. There's no, there's no scheduling involved. Super simple. I open a can of dog food. Put it in a plate. Dust it. Give it. Do I add something? Yes, I do. I do add fruit and the vegetables, depending on the time of year. I do seasonal feeding. Meaning, during the summer, when it's blueberry season, my guys are eating this crap out of blueberries. Because just like in the wild, there's seasons for fruits. There's seasons for things. And I kind of replicate that by giving them different things throughout the year. But that base is dog food. As long as your base is dog food, and then you supplement different things like hard boiled eggs, or a mouse, or a baby carpet python, or whatever, as long as it's available. Or shredded carrots, or you know, that piece of banana you didn't finish, or some roaches, or some, you know, whatever, as long as that base is dog food, you're generally going to be in good shape. Because you have that baseline down. Then everything else on top of that is gravy. And if you can vary the diet on top of that, then you're doing good, in my opinion. That's what you're aiming for. Now, I know in like, I guess in Australia, it's quite popular feed dry dog food. Or dry food. They use cat food more in Australia than they do here. But dry dog food and cat food. And they just put a bold dry dog food in there. And that's it. There you go. They supplement that dog food, of course. But that's pretty much it. They put a bold dry dog food in there, water, and let the animal go. And what's amazing about dry dog food, which a lot of people realize is, it's kind of almost cute here in that it's not very palatable. Meaning that blue tongues don't like to gorge on the stuff. Because this doesn't really taste that good. It's not very appetizing. So they only eat when they're hungry. So that's a good thing. Especially on an animal that is prone to obesity, having something on a diet that they don't gorge on, it's probably a good thing. And I think that's why we've seen a lot of success with people using dry diets. Is it's they don't sit there and down the whole bowl. You can literally put a whole bowl in there and they'll eat it little by little throughout the week, keeping a healthy weight. It's quite amazing how it's working out. It's working out very well. I don't feed dry exclusively. Because I keep Indonesian animals, animals that are very prone to dehydration in themselves. So dog food, dry dog food, or dry food in any way requires a lot of hydration through the gut system in order for them to digest it. It just makes sense. If you feed your dog dry dog food, he drinks a lot of water. Because he needs to in order to digest all that dry food. Same thing with the blue tongue. If you feed them dry food, they're going to need drink a lot of water. When you have an animal that's prone to dehydration and you feed them dry dog food, you can see how you can cause a problem in that. You can just agree that issue. Maroop is not so much. Between meals, if I'm raising younger groups and I want to feed them more often, I'll throw a little bit of dry dog thing in there. They'll eat it up if they're hungry and they're fine. I'll stuff like key islands and things or how many hairs or Indonesians, I would try to stay wasting the dry stuff only because they're dehydration prone. But that's it. That's how simple it is. It can't get much simpler than that. In terms of what dog food you feed, a lot of people are like, "Oh, dog food. You could go crazy and get the organic. No, whatever, blah, blah, blah." I do that. I go all out and buy the $2 can of dog food, half can of dog food, whatever, compare to the city-sense stuff. I do that. But they've been proven to be raised fine on nothing but pedigree dog food. They're like, "That's great. Is that the highest quality dog food out there?" No, no, no. Half of the thing is like, salt dust and shit. Like, here I'll be like, "Seriously?" And they've been raised like that. Fine. That was the go-to dog food for raising blue zones for a long time was pedigree beef dog food. They're pretty crappy stuff. I wouldn't even see that to my dog when I'm but you can use that. They've been proven to be fine on that. There is proof of 30-year-old animal, 30 years old, eating nothing but dog food their whole life and still producing litters every year. I mean, this is good. You can't beat that. Like, people want to say, "Well, you have no proof that it works." Well, yeah, we kind of do. Hey, if I could keep any animal for 30 years and it's thriving and still producing young on nothing but dog food, why wouldn't I use the dog food? Why? Because in your mind, it's not natural. Well, neither's keeping in a box natural. Neither is a deep plant natural. That whole natural idea is kind of bogus in a way. Yeah, you want to keep it as natural as possible. But this comes to a certain point. Do be a roaches. Don't live in Australia. Yeah, it is. Like, come on, people. Carrots don't naturally grow in Australia. Neither does lettuce. Neither does collard greens. All right, so you can say it's not natural if he's your animal dog food, but it's not natural if he doesn't see them. Anything we're feeding them in captivity, you know? Unless you're in Australia keeping it in your backyard and you're seeing it wear a snail or whatever calls in his cage, it's not happening. So, don't go for natural, but go for optimal. There's a difference between that, you know? And we all keep our animals in the optimal way. I don't, you know, I don't keep any of my animals in a natural way because it's impossible, but I keep them in the most optimal way possible. That's what I do. Now, my issue with this eating the natural thing is, now you're trying to use multiple bits of food items to then simulate a complete diet. So, you're trying to get the right proportions of insects, the right proportions of lettuce or greens or collard greens or mushrooms or whatever you want to use, the right proportions of fruit, the right proportions of meat, and you're trying to do it in your own mind and doing all this guesswork to try to get the perfect diet when we already have one that works perfectly good. Makes no sense. That's a lot of work. This is not, and what ultimately happens is, you'll see people freak out all the time. My skin's not eating their greens. Well, skin's not eating greens in the wild anyways. I don't even know why you're trying to feed them back. They're not eating that. They eat that when they don't have anything else to eat. So, you're not giving them something they want. So, you know what, the suggestion is, oh, we'll just cover it in dog food. Wait, boy. You're coming in the next slide. Well, what you're doing is you take the collard greens and you're blending it with everything out. Like, look, then you're making it eat something. It doesn't even want to eat. Right. For what reason? Because you think in your mind that it's healthier, you know, because you feel better about your pet. That's fine, but it just doesn't work out. And, ultimately, these animals that are fed this natural diet, what people are trying to do guesswork to complete a diet, what ends up happening is these animals suffer from dietary issues all the time. Right. You know? Or even like, what we noticed, the community has noticed that when Indonesian animals are fed, a lot of vegetable matter when they're young or even throughout their life, what ends up happening is your scalation becomes quite pronounced. If you look at the Indonesian from the wild, they have very slick skin or scales. They're scaled like flat, flat, flat, flat. When you see a lot of Indonesians in captivity, you'll see a lot of bumps. Like, their scales are very pronounced. That's not normal. It's not what they're supposed to look like. And what we found out is feeding them a lot of vegetable matter, a lot of fibers, a lot of minerals, all these things that come in vegetable matter, can cause them to have a thicker scalation than they would ultimately in the wild. Makes sense. So you're changing the animal's physiology because you're stubborn and you don't want to get something that is proven to work. And on top of that, I also think that dehydration tends to crinkle scales and tends to cause scales to be more pronounced and things like that as well. That's something we also have found. So, you know, it's very rare that you see a skin in captivity. That's why it's in captivity to have nice, smooth skin, an Indonesian, very rare. Usually the ones that are feeding mostly on a lot of meat-based diets and a lot of protein-based diets because that's most of what they're eating in the wild, you know? So if you want to tell me, you know what, I'm going to feed my baby skinks practically nothing but insects for the first year, I would even almost accept that. I would almost be like, "That seems a little more like they would do in the wild than feeding the collard greens." Yep. You know, that makes a little more sense. I'm okay with that. I even suggest all my young guys, all my babies that I'm raising up, I do try to feed them as much insect matter as possible because it's just so packed with protein that they grow so rapidly that, you know, that's good for them, you know? But ultimately, you know, it's so funny because the dietary issues are such a prominent thing that, not to throw my on the bus, but I have this conversation with that all the time. She's always telling me, you know, "Oh, you've got to feed it green, guys. You've got to do that. You've got to do that." You know, I'm always like, "Hey, all right. A little bit she knows that I feed my skinks dog food. If I were to tell her that she would feed it, but she uses my skinks, she uses my skinks as, you know, controls for her, you know, studies. So she's using my skinks as the pinnacle of health when it comes to her skinks studies that she's doing at the University of Penn. So it's like, but, you know, the dogs when they keep an erect, the things she tells you not to do. Not to do. Yeah. So it's kind of funny, you know, some things that they said, right, some things that have been said 10 years ago, just don't hold water. Like, they just don't hold up when you look at things that have been done 20, you know, years from, you know, go. Like, it's just not the same, you know? And part of that is for the pet. It's what part of that is due to the pet keeper. And I understand that. I understand you're keeping this as your pet. This is your friend, whatever. That's cool. I understand that you want to get this animal the best you can. But you can be giving your animal the service by feeding it things that it just doesn't want to eat. And it doesn't want to eat it because it doesn't eat it. Doesn't need it because you're looking at information that is 20 years old rather than looking at what people are doing now. So that would be my suggestion. Look at the ecology of the animal. Look at where they're coming from. Some common sense can be sometimes can hold out. Like, why would this thing need to eat leaves if there's insects all the way around it? Like what would like, it doesn't make sense, you know? Anyway, so that's the argument, you know? That's kind of the natural versus not. I say dog food. Do you want to throw everything else on top of that? Be my guess, you know? But stick with something that's complete. I don't know. A lot of people are like, well, what if they come up with a bluetooth specific diet? It would look just like dog food and be 10 times more effective. It would be dog food ring packaged, yeah. They would be dog food and put a bluetooth on it and charge you 10 times more. Just like if you buy heat lamp at pet code, this is buying at Home Depot. Yeah, it's the same damn bold. It's like three dollars. Yeah, Home Depot. What would a bluetooth on diet look like? It would look like dog food. It would look like this. There was a question though when it came to the vitamins, when you're doing it the way you're doing it. Do you think that they could get too much vitamins? Yes, and you got to be careful. I think that's another issue as well. Too much of a good thing is always a bad thing, right? And you can't over supplement. Absolutely. I've been using Rapache Heidi, which has higher densities of D3. But if you look at the way that the supplement I used was formulated, it was formulated for the zig-zag rate. It was formulated for diurnal animals that are not offered UVB. It says that on the label, this is what it's for. So I use something that I trust in a company I trust in supplementing my animals. And I dust very slightly. I don't doubt the thing. I don't do anything like that. It does slightly, and that's it. There is natural, there's D3 added to every can of dog food or any dry dog food. Dogs need D3 just like owl animal eat it. So it's in dog food. But I like to supplement a little more because it's not quite the same, you know. So this is an eye insurance policy. I put a little bit of that on and then I know that what's formerly wrapped out is on there, and I feel safe about offering it. Some people can even supplement their dog food, just straight dog food, and are fine. I like to be a little safer and sorry, and that's why I do it. But if you're dousing your food items with powder every day, you know, you're going to be in trouble because you're just giving it way too much. It's like if I, if every day I went to GMT and down like three bottles of multivitamin, it sucks. You're going to be in trouble, man. This is excellent. You know, it's not going to work. Are you going to get sick? Again, too much it's good and can't be a bad thing. So you got to be careful. I only use my vitamins every day, but here's the thing. This is another thing you have to realize. I don't feed every day. So when people are like using your vitamins every day, I said, no. I use my vitamins once a week because that's how often I feed, which brings the other question. The amount of food you feed your skin is another controversial. I guess it's controversial. I find people feed their animals way too much. I think we find that constantly in animals in general. People got fat dogs. People got fat cats. People have fat snakes and people have fat skinks because people feed them every day and they just don't mean it. Dog food is high in calories, right? So if dog food is a complete diet and it works so well, great. But it's also extremely high in calories. It's meant for a mammal. I mean, the mammal, it's twice a day for that mammal to survive, right? So you try to compare what a dog eats to compare it to what a lizard, a lazy lizard eats, and you cannot be offering food every day in my opinion. It's just you're dooming yourself. Yeah, while you're skinky every day, yeah, it may nibble every day, but it's not healthy in the long run. I cannot tell you. Well, I would say about 90 percent of skinks. I see online about 90. And I'm being honest, 90 are overweight. It's not obese, like badly. Badly overweight is not obese. And so you see this constantly and you see people feed their skinks every day or every other day and you're like, that's way too much food. That's just way too much food. These are slow metabolism, slow moving animals that in the wild are eating a few bugs a day when they can catch them or when they can find them. And that's pretty much what they're doing. They're doing that every day. So if you're going to feed them something that's so high and rich and fat and in calories like dog food, you can't feed them that every day. You're going to result in a fat animal. So I, on my adult, feed my adult only once a week. And these shock people, you know, but I only feed them once a week. Now, because I feed wet dog food, I do about 50. Actually, I don't even do pure wet anymore because I find that stools get a little wet if you do pure wet. But I do about, I do about, let's say, 60% dry and about 40% wet. It's kind of the mix I do. And that's what I do. And I feed that once a week. And the wet dogs, the skinks will gorge on it. So they will eat until they're full. And that's all they get for the whole week. Maybe part way through the week, but on time of year, I might throw in some blueberries, throw in some hard gold eggs, throw in my roach or two or whatever I have laying around, you know, just to see the meat just because I'm like them. But generally, that base amount is all they get for the week. And then whatever is on top of that is on top of that. But that's it. When it comes to juveniles, I feed them about twice a week when I'm raising animals up at the team twice a week. I know some people like to feed babies every day. When a baby is recently born, yes, feeding them every day to every other day is important. They grow rapidly. So if you do not feed them, their needs amount, they will develop problems because they're not getting the amount of nutrition they need. So yeah, as babies, you got to be seeing these guys every other day at the least. Now, as they grow older, six months, that sort of thing, I cut it down to every other day. Not every other day. I mean twice a week. And then as they grow to about a year old, to about 18 months old, then it's once a week. So my adults will receive about once a week. That's it. And they're fine. Actually, one of my girls is still fat and she's been on this diet for three years. So, you know, it's a good break she came from. Yeah, where she came from, she was fed so much. She came to me, one of my key islands, the one that she didn't breed, she's an eight-year-old girl, and the one she didn't breed, she is so fat. I came super fat when she came to me to the point where her arms look like balloons because they were like, you know, inflated arms. It was the weirdest thing I ever seen, fat fat. And I did whatever I could, and I started slim. And she slimmed down some, but she's always going to keep that fat. What has the pattern is, when an animal is overweight for a long period through the time, it's much harder for you to lose that weight. Humans are the same thing. If you've been overweight for years, it's much harder for you to lose that weight than if you gain a few pounds over the summer. You know what I mean? It's just that's the way about that fat just sits there. And so that animal's metabolism has been slowed or has been reduced to the point where she ain't never going to get rid of that fat, and she's going to be chronically obese probably for the rest of her life, and they never breed for it. That's why I'm looking at it. I'm not even expecting her to ever breed because that's how fat she is. I don't think it's going to work. Oh, wow. Is it hard to get an obese animal down to weight? Like, is it, you know, is it easy to get them fat, and then is it really hard to get them to slim down? Exactly. So it's easy. I mean, it's like anything. It's still like, you know, when you pack on the pound as hard as you get rid of it, once you're packing off, it's just the truth. You do the same thing to your animal. You feed it, and it's freaking obese, and then you're trying to reduce the amount of food it takes. It just holds on to that. They're meant to hold on to fat, their reptiles. They may not go with, they may go without eating for months. So their metabolism will slow, slow, slow, slow all the way down. So they're barely using calories, and they just hold on to that fat as long as possible. Because in their mind, they're not going to get another meal, and they may not get another meal. They're meant to hold weight, right? And so you have, especially all Australian guys, all Australian animals, they hold weight like I've never seen. I mean, you know, you have big fat tails, big fat bodies. They mostly hold a lot of their weight in their tails, the Australian animals. So you'll get these carrot tails when they're really fat. The Indonesian stuff cannot hold fat in their tails. The Marouks can a little bit, but not too much. But in any way, generally, you'll have this giant sausage with skinny bell stick on the back. It's the funniest thing to see. This is not at all proportion. Like it just, you know, I know how Jawls, right? These like fat deposits underneath their chin that hang to the floor, dude. And you're like, "What are you doing?" Like, "What's this?" That's not normal. Wow. That's not normal. And I can show you, you know, dozens. I don't want to throw up anyway. Spot. But I can show you dozens of Jawls hanging to the floor. And it's just not supposed to hold that. Especially the Indonesian stuff. Indonesia animals, in general, are supposed to be thinner, lankier, you know, quicker animals. And people feed them like they're all showing stuff or, you know, and it just doesn't work out that way. So, only if you want to week. And like, a tablespoon or two at most. I think that's it. That's it. People are like, "Oh, I found it like two cups yesterday." They're like, "What?" Like, she was like, "What do you got a great day?" Like, "What do you mean?" "I'm going to give you a jog a full time." Like, you know, you have a, it's a 20-inch lizard. It's not a great day, lady. Like, "What are you doing?" You know? Right. And you see it constantly. Like, I always think, I think most people believe they know what a healthy skin even looks like. You know? So, what they perceive is, "Oh, they're supposed to be sausages with little legs." No, not really. Especially the endostows, those pretty long, lanky things that are, you know, quick, going to a leaflet and not some fat blob that just sits there. Like, and this is the problem. And that kind of bleeds into breeding. You're going to have an animal that's not going to breed. It's just not going to happen. Because there's no way up there for the babies to even fit. Like, you know? Right. There's no place for the eggs that develop. Yeah. It's just crazy, dude. Like, so, feed them once a week. Keep them not as high as you would. And my set-ups are pretty easy for my, for my, for my, uh, for my endost, you know? I keep the back of the cage, which is warmer, where the heat tape is. I keep that dryer, and I keep the front of the cage wetter. I just pour water in the front. Leave the back dry. And that's it. When they want humidity, it comes to the front. They nestle in the wet substrate, and they shed. Fine. And that's it. Easy. That's it. Once a week. Easy. Water changes twice a week. And that's it. Easy, easy animal. Now, when people feed a lot, then you see also pooping a lot. People want to eat. They're going to poop maybe two or three times that most. But that's it. If you feed them every day, they're pooping every day. You just triple your not-your workload for no reason, and you're doing detriment to your animal. So, that's, that's the whole dietary thing. Um, dog food is a good thing. Dog food, dog food works. And I use what works. Yeah, it seems that, uh, I mean that, that would, that would even go into snakes as far as people over feeding. I think it's probably, they just, they probably think that this is their interaction with the animal. And, uh, you know, if it's healthy, yeah, you know, then somehow that it relates to a healthy animal, I guess, is the idea. Yeah, which is the opposite. You know, it's not the case. So, okay. All right. So, what is it? 11 o'clock already? Good Lord. It is. 11 o'clock already. And you were concerned about the concern was filling the. Yeah, I was concerned. I was concerned. We want to have enough time, which is we're going to like to get it. Damn right. We're not going to have enough time. We're going to try. Oh, my throat parks sound good. I'm here. All right. Do you want to put on breeding, I guess? Yeah. Yeah. Let's want to go straight to, let's go to breeding. Well, wait, what was the next question? Just, just maybe I can handle it out in about five seconds. Would you have any tips for somebody getting, establishing a wild caught animal? Oh man. Okay. So, yeah, this is probably, this is probably more important than breeding, to be honest, because this is going to be an introduction. You know what I mean? Like, let's do these people before we tell them how to breed the things, right? Probably a good idea. Probably a good idea. Yeah. So, yes, let's go over this. I guess, all right. I guess we could start with a story. About a year ago, I picked up a group of baby key islands, straight from window, born in captivity, pretty much their parent or their mothers were wild caught. And so, they pretty much were born and then shipped over essentially. I got these four babies. And I experienced every major issue when it came to raising these animals, that blue tongue skin keepers may have to deal with in their keeping. I mean, this project was doomed to fail. It felt like it was doomed to fail. It felt like I got hosed over and I did, but, you know, it was a disaster and I was able to, with hard work, to be honest, turn the project around and it was through good husbandry. And that's something I want to preference more than anything. There's this thing out there a lot of people like to call the mysterious illness. And this mysterious illness tends to happen to Indonesian animals, whether they'd be moist, whether they'd be regular classic and those are key islands or how many heres. And what it is, is one day you'll come in, you'll look at your skin, and you'll have his eyes glued shut. He'll be bubbling at the mouth. His face will be covered in sores. It will not look good. It will sound weird. It will have bad sheds. It will have eyelids like all jacked up. You know, it may have crusts on its nose. What we would all, as pipeline keyers, would be like, oh, respiratory, right? Clearly, you know, this thing's having a bacterial issue, which is usually a result of stress, which is usually a result of, you know, any stressors, which could be bad husbandry, or inappropriate. And they're not bad. I don't want to use bad because nobody means to do this generally. It just tends to happen if things flip. So we see this a lot with important animals, because these animals are already coming in dehydrated, underfed, malnourished, you know, kept in suboptimal temperatures, and they're coming in and they're having problems. And then on top of that, you're throwing husbandry that is outdated. You're overheating the animal. You're providing a dry environment, not a human environment like it came from or needs. And then you run into problems. That's how it happens. So mysterious illness is not necessarily a mystery. What it is, is a result, it is bodies with direct effect from its environment. So pretty much what happens is, I guess this is what, in my mind, this is my theory. I don't have anything to base this off of, other than what my experiences have been. When animals dehydrated, and when an animal, well, yeah, is dehydrated, it has low humidity, everything in its environment, right? It's usually membrane to try out, right? Makes sense. If you can't produce any tears, your eyes will dry out and crust over. Am I right? It makes a lot of sense. Your lips will dry out. Your nostrils will dry out. You'll get crust on your nose. You'll get crusty lips. You'll get crusty eyes. You will tend to have breathing phones as your pulmonary lungs start to dry out. This is common, this is dehydration. What we're seeing often is dehydration. When you're breathing in freaking hot, dry air, you get a cough, don't you? I do. I get a cough every winter. I have one right now. Because I'm in dry-ass weather. That's just it. Translate that over to a skink and an animal that lives in the tropics. It makes a lot of sense that they have issues coming from, and then you're putting them in a tank, which has no humidity at all, putting black in them with all kinds of UVD rays and any other things you like to put on top of your tank and under tank heater and everything else in a 60 degree room. You expect nothing to happen? You're putting it in a situation that's not natural, that's not optimal for the animal. As a result, things happen. They get stressed, which calls their musics in the drop, just like we see in any other animal, in pythons or whatever, and that results in a sickness, oftentimes bacterial, right? Opportunistic bacteria or fungus takes over, and this is what you get. I find the best treatment for this is 16 husbandry. That is the number one treatment. Unless husbandry is fixed, no amount of fateral, no amount of injections, no amount of anything is going to help your animal, you need to fix your problem. If you're too stubborn to do it, then you're never going to have a safe animal. I've seen people who cannot get away from having their display tank in their living room, refuse to believe that their animal would do better in a rack. Refuse to believe that their animal would do better in a tub scenario, at least temporarily, until they fix this giant cage that is like the desert when it really should look like in the desert. You know what I mean? Right, because they refuse because they're stubborn, because they're being stubborn about it, and then they go to their vet and guess what their vet says? You're doing everything right. Right, crap. What? You have 110 degree hotspots? That's perfect. You know why? Because the vet thinks that they're dealing with bearded dragons. Right, or monitors something. I've been to a vet, where I told them I had a blue throwing skin, and it gave me a care sheet for bearded dragons saying it's the same thing. I kid you not. Wow, wow. So you combine all this together and you can see what people have found. It's really not their fault. It's really not their fault. That's why I'm never the one to quickly judge on somebody, you know? Right. Don't do it. It's the water going up. Yes, sometimes you want to be like, you idiot, like what do you, like, you know, sometimes you want to be like, "Please do me." You know, and I've promised myself at least one today, I will go on these groups, and I will answer one silly question. Just one. And that way I feel like I did my duty, and I can ignore the others. I've tried, and that's it, because sometimes it could be so overwhelming. It's the same issues over and over and over again. His eyes are dried out. I have a bad shed. I don't understand why his nose is crinkly. Oh, I don't understand why he's always wall surfing. Oh, I don't understand why he's having bad pubes, or he's not eating. Why he's not eating with salads? It's like it's the same issues over and over, and it's because of the bad information that's out there. So I try to be very understanding of that, you know? So I think the mystery illness is just that. It's just a result of bad husbandry for whatever period of time. It could be only a few days where this animal transported from you, you know, from wherever you got it from to you, that this could have happened, and then it comes with, you know, bubbly eyes or something. What you would describe as an "R.I." It doesn't really manifest itself the same in a lizard that can open its mouth and lick and is a little more active than it does in a snake, which just tends to just collect mucus in the mouth, you know. But it's pretty much the same thing. So when I got these snakes in this group of four, they were horrendous. One had a giant cyst on their chin. All four of them were malnourished. Two of the four had mites, which is not good. No, you said the bad word. Yeah, I just said the bad word. And you looked funny. You looked funny like two years ago. If somebody was at the word mite, I would be itchy. I would be like freaking out. It's so funny. Because like once you understand that, yes, you know, if you get an employee animal, you're going to have to deal with it, and yes, is there easy to deal with if you know what you're doing, then they're not scary. They're not as scary. I prepared for this. I had to hold separate room away from our reptile room in two people's up. Like where I knew I was going to have to quarantine these animals for, which ended up being a year. But yeah. So I got rid of the mites within a few weeks. They're easy with blue tongs. Mites are going to sit in the blue tongs ears. That's the number one place to hide is in the ears. They really can't get much of a good grip fishing on young animals anywhere else because scales on blue tongs get very snug to the body. So it's hard for the for the mites to dig underneath the scales and get to the flesh just like they do with snakes. It makes that very pliable scale so they go right under. Skinks not so much. They usually aim for the ears. So the first thing I do is when I get a new important animal is there's something called reptile relief. You get it at most pet codes. Some pet smarts will have it, and it's a topical spray that kills mites on contact, and it will not hurt your animal. And what I do is put the thing on the water. I hold the stink in the sink with, you know, with the running water, wash the skink off, and then I spray directly in the ears right in. Don't get it in their eyes. It will irritate their eyes. But spray it right in their little ears and just let it sit there and then rub it into the ears. Within minutes, you'll either see mites on your thumb or on your fingers, or you do not have mites, generally speaking. Because if they're going to be anywhere, they're going to be in the ears, and that stuff will kill them instantly. So if you start seeing stuff coming out their ears and you know shit, this thing has mites. At that point, I mean you should quarantine either way, but I usually do that treatment when I first get an animal. If they show no signs of mites, I do that treatment again a week later, still no signs. I do that treatment a week later, and then whatever quantity period I feel, and I do it one more time just to check, before I put them in my room. This is necessary. I've been seeing a lot of mite cases in Bluetone recently, and it's because all these imports are coming in that are cheap, they're people are buying, and as a result, they don't even think that a skink could get a snake mite. They don't even think that's a thing, but unlike a bearded dragon which doesn't really get mites, or a gecko which doesn't get mites, Bluetone will get mites because they have scales like a snake. So you have to understand that and you have to treat them and quarantine them appropriately, or you will have a problem. Because you'll think, "Oh, you'll do a whole rundown of the animal and look totally clear, but you have not looked deep into the ear, and you don't know that there's some mites sitting." So best to be safe is sorry. So that's the first thing. There's like three steps when it comes to the quarantine in the animal. The first thing is to stabilize an animal. What that means is you have to get that thing to survive till the next day. Stabilize it. If it's dehydrated, hydrated. If it's malnourished, seated. Get it to the optimal temperature and you have to stabilize it. After you stabilize the animal and it's eating and it's doing good, your next task, while you stabilize the animal, this should be your task, too, is to get rid of any external parasites. Get rid of them. Do it again. Get rid of them. And then your final step is to get rid of internal parasites. So the three step process before I enter any animal into my room, and it keeps me sane, and it keeps my collection safe, and that's what's important. And because these things are coming from the wild, you know, what disease, what bacteria, what parasite they can have in them, you know, you have no idea. And it's important for the safety of your animals to take care of these things. In quarantine, quarantine, quarantine. Quarantine is very simple. Paper. Simple tub setup. That's it. Spray it down with preventive mite of a whole nine. Simple setup for at least the first few weeks. As soon as you realize, as soon as you can rule out mites, then you can throw in bedding in there. You can do it up, but until then, you've got to be very sterile in order for you to be careful and not spread mites all throughout your house. Because can you imagine you put that little snake in a thing of cypress mulch, and now the mites just are totally all in that mulch, and then you have to come out and get that mulch on your house outside without dropping any impossible use paper. And this is the other issue though too, because you're using paper and now the thing is not sitting in humidity, you know, and you're exactly being an issue. So what I do is daily folks, I was doing daily space, and with some of them, they were so bad. I had to do a syringe full of baby turkey food, like baby food, like turkey bread, and sweet potato for baby food because it's tying sugar and y'all giving some energy, and I would use a syringe and get it in their mouth because they would not eat because they were that bad off. Between that and soaks and everything else, it was crazy. I saw all of these animals. I saw kinks. Kinks are the first sign of metabolic bone disease is kinks. They will usually happen in the tail. And, you know, some people are like, "Oh, it's not metabolic bone disease because its jaw there's a kinks soft because that's what happens if beer drying is a jaw gets soft, it's probably the first thing that happens." The first thing that happens is tail kinks usually, and then you'll have back kinks and things like that. Tail kinks are very common in Australian animals and that's because of the brumation thing, which we're probably not even going to be able to touch on. But anyway, we're going to do around two next year. That's what's going to happen. But anyway, I saw kinks, and the reason why is because of now, because they were so malnourished that they weren't given the calcium. I mean, I don't even know what they did with these animals. To me, it looked like they were born, they were shipped around for a while for a few weeks before they even got to me because I never seen a new brand animal that was maciated. You know what I mean? Like skin and bone. It, you know, the size of newborn. Like, this doesn't even make sense. Well, I think I never saw a meal in its life. So as a result, I got some kinks. I was able to get rid of those kinks through good food and everything as a thing grew up, and I was fine. But these are the things I saw. And so you've got to be careful. Good food, stabilize the animal, daily hydration, get rid of the mites, then internal parasites. Now, I'm the kind of guy that has a different view on internal parasites than other people. I don't believe there's a squeaky clean animal. I don't think it exists. I don't think there's any reptile in captivity that doesn't have at least one parasite living in its gut. I don't think so. Yeah. I think we'll be kind of ignorant to think that that's the case. It's not the case. We have parasites living in our gut. I doubt that they don't. Now, what ends up happening is when you have a stressed out animal, and you do all this to it, those parasites are able to get a foothold and take over. And that's why-- because if parasites were that bad, then every animal in the wild would be dead. Why is it that animals just survive in the wild with parasite loads, but not in captivity? The difference is the stress. The stress is different. When you reduce the stress down, then you could get those parasite levels hacked down in the gut. Ultimately, you could do that by helping the system along by giving them men's and stuff like that. But unless that stress level is down, the parasite is not going to get to you to have a foothold. You're never going to get rid of them. I don't think it's even possible really to get rid of most stuff, to be honest. But even what that says, parasite loads, as long as they're not a little high load, are totally normal. And so what I did was establish a good feeding regime, feed them, and then I used this new product. I don't know. Let me see. I don't have it here. This herbal supplement, reptile basic-celled it, and it's this herbal mixture powder that tends to, that makes the gut inhospitable for parasites. It doesn't kill parasites outright, but it makes them hard for them to continue the process. And so essentially, it's a softer way to de-parasotize, or at least stabilize your animal without shooting them up, or feeding them too, feeding them crazy amount of meds. It's like a nice, less abrasive way. And to me, it was a better idea because these animals are so stressed out and so high strong, that if I'll pick them up every day to shove a two down their throat, or shove a syringe down their throat, and set them these meds, which wipe out all the gut flora in their stomachs, not just the bad stuff, but everything. And I'm going to exacerbate the issue. So I went with this stuff that was not as bad, and it slowly cleared the mouth, until I saw that their stools started getting nice and solid and fine, and now they didn't find their instruments. I do have my own microscope. I looked at the poop. I can do that at my house. Luckily, I was smart enough to get one of those and learn how to use it. And I looked at it, nothing out of an ordinary, nothing too crazy. I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I just got to be careful. I don't clean poop, and then go click my fingers. You shouldn't be doing that anyway. You shouldn't clean poop. And then go change water, water, water, water, water. You shouldn't be doing that anyway. You know, if you follow simple hygiene, there's no reason why you should have a problem. I've actually started using gloves. Yes, I do gloves as well. I do gloves as well. I don't do gloves for the snakes so much as I could. It's usually just paper, but like, the blue tones, because I spot clean, you know, I have to handle the shit. It's not like I could just lift a paper. So I put gloves on, you know, and then I go, you know, I'll do like a group. Like, if the group came together, then I know whatever they have, they would all have it. And so I just kind of go and change gloves throughout the group. You know, like, I'll do the keys all in one with all the same glove or, you know, and stuff like that. Do the snakes in a different, and it's all about hygiene, understanding how to do that. But as long as you get the stressors down, internal parasites, providing it not something crazy, but simple pinworms, simple things like that, are not going to kill your animal. Can they get out of control? Absolutely. But it's important to understand which parasites are okay and benign, essentially, and which parasites are life-threatening. Cryptocinomium is life-threatening. The animal's going to be dead. There's no doubt about it. You know, if your animal goes through stress, its poop may be a little soft for a little while because the pinworms, you know, became an issue. But these are things that, you know, they're almost impossible to get rid of because of how, you know, the life cycle of the animals, and you just have to deal with it when it comes up. But the idea of squeaky, clean, parasite-free animals, which just doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist. Just another reptile in this conception. Yep. Oh my god. So I took my thing and it says that pinworms, but yeah, probably. That sounds right. Yeah. Well, hold on. Hold on. Is the animal symptomatic? You know, is the animal having problems pooping? Is it pooping-wise? No, it's not. Is it still even soft? No, it isn't perfectly fine, but you're still going to shove medicine down its throat. Second, think that one, buddy. Like, just think about what you're doing because you're going to be doing, again, more harm than good because you feel what you think is right than what is more natural for the animal, what's optimal for the animal. I guess that's the one thing I guess everybody, if you can take something away from my ramblings for the last two hours, is that remember where these animals come from? Do your own research. Now, bluetooth games.net has a great care sheet on there. I personally, not to bash it, but personally, some of the things I don't agree with. Some of the things on there is a lot of data. I know they're currently doing things to change the the care sheets and include different ideas, which I think will be a good thing, because right now it just seems like these ideas have been around for a long time, so maybe freshen it up, update it, which will be great. But I don't think anybody should leave one care sheet. There's nothing else. This isn't, you know, do your own research. Listen to what I say. Don't listen to what I say. I have doubts for you. Listen to other breeders. Talk to other breeders. Talk to all showing guys. I'm sure all showing guys thinks I'm an idiot. I'm sure they're fine. You know, go out there and ask people different things, so you can get a better understanding of what to do, and then do your own thing in your own home, best best suited for you, and then your animal. Don't listen to one care sheet, and that's it. That's what people go wrong. And definitely get a new vet if she tells you you're a breeder dragon. Is it same as you did that? No, I'm not going to work. Please, please. So we definitely will have to do a follow-up show, but before we, you know, this is your first year at attempting to breed these guys, so I wanted to throw out, you know, what your projects are that you're going to be working with. Not necessarily how you're going to breed them, because I think that would probably take up too much time, but just what your projects are. Well, I'm pretty much up to what I hope to be pairing this year. I haven't paired yet. I know a lot of people are like, "You breed in those stuff. You're not pairing yet." And I know most people who breed Indonesian stuff have paired already and are pretty much done with their breeding, but usually the breeding season starts at the start of your cool down, and I have not cooled down yet. So, you know, I just, I have a cool down. Some of my males are not even in breeding mode, so it's definitely not the time. So I'm not too worried about it. As soon as I start cooling down, I'm sure I'm going to see a lot of breeding activity, and that's when I'll breed. But I'm saying it, I have a pair of maroops, really nice female, but I got a few months ago, not too far ago, which is why I'm a little concerned, because she's just kind of established in the room and everything. I'm going to go for it, make sure you get a lot of egg-bounding or something like that for those girls, where they have too much complications, generally either these slug out or, you know, reproduce some viable young. So I'm hoping that she'll do fine. I'm pretty sure she will. She is about, she's about three years old, she's going to be at least two and a half. She was bred last year at 18 months and didn't produce anything. They had lockups with her, but didn't produce anything. So I'm hoping that I would have better luck this year, being that she'll be a year older. Most blue tongues mature about two years old, females, and males are about one year old. So males can have a pretty quick turnaround, but females need to be a little bit older. So I'm thinking she'll be ready this year, she's definitely have to wait, let me tell you. So, you know, she should be fine, she should be ready to go. I actually slinger down a bit when I got her, because I thought she would make me a little too big, but the male I plan on, she actually, she was produced by Sue B, so anybody knows who Sue B is? I'm sure anybody who's listening in the blue tongue world knows who Sue B is. She's the person who is producing the most marooks in the country, and to be honest, the best marooks in the world, in my opinion, phenomenal project she's got going on. She's producing some of the nicest high orange animals I've ever seen, dropped at gorgeous stunning, credible animals, and she's been producing quite a lot. Three years ago, I believe she produced this female, it was sold to David, and he then sold it to me last year, because he just has way too many females, so yes, let one go. And I'm pairing her with my male named Don. And Don is a really unique looking marook, he has a lot of cream on his back, very faded out back kinder, almost no black on his body at all, even what would be black is really a dark brown, like he's almost a hypo, beautiful animal. He's going to be going with her. If he doesn't get it done, I have another male winning wings, you know what I mean? So, back up boys. Yeah, I got back up boys, which is who I like to call Hamburg, because he was my hamburger steel. I remember that one. Yeah, you're a little baby I bought last year at Hamburg. Yeah, we're in that little, little shit, that little thing, you got like, really, you bought that thing? Yeah, well phenomenal. We saw like one second, and then you were like staring at it the entire show. Yeah, yeah, I picked him up on some jobbers table, he was a newborn, and I was hoping it was going to be a female, turned out to be a male, like a big bulky huge head on him. Yeah, he's a huge male, and he's going to be bringing with her if done doesn't get it done, but done is quite a horny little bastard, so I'm pretty sure he's going to. I'm pretty sure he's going to get it done. I'm not too worried about that. I'm just worried that, you know, hopefully she doesn't kill him. Yeah, beyond that, so that's the only time that my key islands. I'm going to try, but I'm not holding my breath. Keyions are very hard to breed. I do have two females that I've had for a few years now. They definitely have size, you know, they have that really fat girl, which I don't expect anything from, and have another girl. I just worry about the males that do have only a year old, and a quite a bit smaller than the two females that do have, which is not one of the worst thing when it comes to snakes, but when it comes to blue suns, which either they're loving each other or killing each other, you can see how that could be a problem. Yeah, I don't want her to, I don't want one of the females to turn around and just break his neck. So you got to be very careful about that. So I won't try that, but I'm not going to try them anytime soon. When we took the cooldowns well on the way, and then I'll just clap my fingers, put them together, and watch like a man-man. Kind of like what you do, y'all. Yeah, just kind of stare and hope that God did nothing bad happen. Yeah, briefly. Please, I gotta kill him. Please, don't kill him. Please, don't kill him, please don't kill him, please don't piss her off. She's my first cage to go. The first cage you go into look when you come home, and you're like, "Oh my God, is this still true?" Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Looking at you like, "What?" And it's like, "Okay, all right, I'll be back later." So, yeah, you know. So the best, yeah, so the best shot I got is with the lyrics, and listen, if I produce a litter of lyrics this year, I'll be, you know, super ecstatic, super ecstatic. That would be it for me. I'll be incredibly excited. And, you know, I'd probably never sell one, so good luck, people. Not gonna happen. Not gonna happen. Now, I wanna pull, I wanna pull Eric, and that's it. I'm gonna have to set up a new rack. It's just gonna fit. Hold on, bro. Hold on to him, that's it. You know, so I'm excited. I am so excited. So, I'm hoping they pan out. Cool. Yeah, I will be, I will be, and if I get conjure this year, forget it. I want a big year, I want a big year this year. Yeah, you got a lot of things happening. You got any, you know, IJ's going on this year? Nope, not this year, man. I'll tell you what, I thought about a few girls, but then I was looking at it, and I was like, "Oh, crap! Pretty much, he's in the right here." Yeah. And these girls, like, I haven't been feeding up too much. Right. Like, and I was kind of looking at the decision, like, last month, but then it was too late, and I was like, "Shit." And then you have to think about IJ's, they breathe early. It's like, it's not even if I started feeding her last month, like crazy, up until now, that I would hope, you know, I would have to feed her now into all of December, and then try to pair her in January. At that point, it's gonna be packed. That's a try to push it, you know, so. Right. Yeah. You know, and with me working with the contros, I have another, I have a coastal pairing I'm doing this year, and me working with the, with the blue tones, I was like, "Yeah, maybe it would be a better idea just to do one coastal pairing. I already have all these carpets for sale anyway, so it doesn't make sense to kind of, and I'm in the rush, dude, you know. I'm not chasing something, you know, so. Right. Right. So, not this year, man. Believe me, it sucks because I love you, but not this year. All right. Well, if you need a bunch of gently used acrylics, I know where I can provide you with some, you know. You can gently use my ass. You buff it a lot. I know, I know. We use. Yeah. Remember, Oh, and we have, uh, I have a problem with you. I was very gentle with the needle suppliers. It'd be fine. Yeah. All right. You were gentle with those. Man, you threw around with acrylics. Man, that was crazy. Oh, I beat the shit out of them. But anyway, every, every, every, every time he'd be thrown in the back of the truck, like, "What are you doing, man?" I'm gone. I'm gone. I'm out. Yeah. Eric's like, Eric's like, pulling out the red carpet again. His, like, smells out. Gently, gently moving things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was glad he was on his. I had, I had this vision. Oh, and when you sent me that message on Saturday, this vision of somebody walking up to the table and they want, like, one carpet in the row of acrylics and you say basically, "No, you can't have just one. You might have the whole row. Get the money, you're the whole freaking row." Yeah, because it, there's a, wait, there's a lock for every tear though, right? Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, each individual tear has the locking bar that locked all of the everybody. So yeah, I had to, yeah. I would have had to still the entire tear. So yeah. But I only want that one snake. No, you don't. Don't care. No, you don't want them all. Yeah. Owen's using Jedi mind tricks on people. Yeah. You want the whole fuck? Still, I ever had sold all of them. Yep. Had to leave it noon. So, nice. Anyway. All right, so Zach, where do we follow you at? How can people see what's going on with you and your reptile of your skinks? Yeah. You can, you can contact me. Well, I'm on Facebook. You know that, but you can contact me as Zach Baez. It's pretty, probably the easiest thing. You just messaged me on there. The thing is, it's like, I'm getting little selective about final class just because of the craziness of being going on on Facebook. It's kind of wild out there, man. I'm like, almost over it. It's just too much, man. I'm almost falling to Eric. I'm always like, you know what? I'm out. I'm out. It was right. I'm out. I'm always there. It's getting, it's just getting silly. I like it anyway. So, but you can contact me on there, but I would prefer most people to contact me through dark side exotics, just so I can kind of like separate a little bit. So, at least organize some messages a little bit. If you contact me, you can contact me wherever, but dark side is preferred if you can. So, dark side is two words, and yeah, I'm posting stuff up there as much as I can, and you can see all the animals I'm doing, and parries I'm doing, and check out the craziness that is over here. So that's it. And I don't, not that things are going to any shows recently. But in a way, we got a, we, we got to hang out and pipe on posse. Billy, we haven't even hung out in a while. We got to have a meeting. I know. Well, I mean, I tried to make that happen, what, a month ago and only Owen showed up, so. Yeah, right. But it was showed up. Yeah, but you told everybody a week before, like you're like, uh, you got to plan this shit. You know, we're busy people. No, man. I'm trying to, I'm trying to fit into you, young guys, where you just like do thing ones on a whim, man. There's no planning. Yolo. When you're trying to yolo, you have to be saying that's probably, Matt's probably 100 feet in the air somewhere on a billboard. Yeah. Yeah. I'm calling on a ladder in my showroom. You got to understand, things are going down. It's a busy season, but we'll make it happen. Yeah, we will, for sure. Absolutely. Because, you know, I'm working on that logo of yours. Yeah. Yeah. And we have the next week, Joe, we have two weeks off. So I mean, like, yeah, I kind of have to get it done too, no. Yeah. Yeah. And we will have, uh, what, two weeks that we will be able to, we'll be able to squeeze a day. We'll be able to plan things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I tell you what, I tell you what, did I just let the cat out of the bag for what? Oh, the new logo? Yeah. I could have sworn we've done that before, but if not, I don't think we did. I don't think we did. But if anybody still listening to this rambling, then they must be die-hurt fans. That's right. Yeah. And you deserve to know. So with that, I want to thank the listeners and hope I didn't ramble too much. And you survived through this crazy two hours of rambling. So that's it, man. Thanks guys for having me on. And hope I answer some questions and maybe we can finish it up next time. But, you know, I told you it was going to be rough. Well, I have to cover. Nah, nah. Good job, man. Good job. We'll get around to in 2016 at some point. Hopefully maybe you're just some marooks, you know? Yeah, that's yeah, because I can actually talk about breathing like I know something, right? There you go. All right, man. All let's go. All right. All right. All right. Thanks, thanks. Yep. Okay. Yeah, so in we were hoping in the upcoming start of the new quote-unquote year for us, our season, or ever do you want to put it, we're going to be unveiling a new logo, which would be pretty cool. Yeah. Kind of kind of go along with our new, you know, the new season and the new, I guess, I don't know if you would say we're changing things all that drastically, but just, you know, hitting on some species just like we did tonight, Blue Tongue Skink. So, hopefully you guys got something out of it. For some reason, I don't think Owen is going to be running out and buying Blue Tongue Skinks any time today. No, I'm sorry. But that's okay. That's okay. You know, us snake guys are hard to venture into the lizard world, but I think that the Blue Tongue Skinks are a good stepping point. Definitely like to have some more shows about some monitors and stuff, because they're equally as cool. So, hopefully in 2016, we'll get some monitor talk, maybe some ackies and some sweetness. It'd be cool to do a show on parentheses, huh? Yeah, it would be cool. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of like, yeah, the ultimate. Our Australian buddy said torturing the hardcore and that, because they're right in the middle, they're hatching season, but then they're also like, oh my god, look at all these silver type of inlets and my lace monitor. It was just a, I'm like, stop it. Stop it. It's like, befriend all of you and I'll pop back in later, but yeah, that would be cool, but you're right. It's like, we have one more show and then then then we're done for the year. Yep. One more show, more calendars coming soon, guys. Please stop messaging me. So, yeah, when I know, you'll know, damn it. Yeah, if you are any, are you friends of either me or Owen or on the Facebook group page or Maralee Pick of the Week, as soon as they are pulled out of the envelope at my house, I will be taking a picture of them and saying they are here. So, we'll let you know. Fear not. So, hopefully, you know, like I said, they should be, it should be sometime this week. Yeah. So, I'm sure with the announcement on air for the next show, if they're here. Yeah, the holiday season, like I said, we waited too long this year. We never, we never seem to do it right correctly, but we, the, I guess with the shipping of everything right now, it's just kind of makes it slow down. So, yeah, but fear not, they'll be here and there will be pretty awesome, I'm sure. Yep. So, like Owen said, next week is the last show of the year. It will be the holiday show that we do every year. We'll drink in and having a good old time. Maybe play some drinking games, some glass plants. Maybe even Tom and, you know, Jim will be stopping in and saying hello. It's like Beetlejuice, if you say it three times, he shows up. Maybe three times he shows up and bad. So, yeah, that will be the last show of the season and then we won't be back until January and should be, should be, should be a cool show next week. Let's see. Real quick, we'll go through MarillipiteTimeRadio.com. Check out the website. If you want to email us, info@MarillipiteTimeRadio.com is our email. Give our Facebook page a like. You can follow us on Twitter. As far as the show, you can listen to the show on iTunes or whatever your app podcast app of choice is. I'm not sure about this, but I think from listening to other podcasts, if you go on and you review the show and like it, it kind of pushes us up on iTunes, so let me bring you awesome. Everybody can do that. Show some love to the Marillipite.com. I can't really think of anything else as far as MarillipiteTimeRadio goes. If you have, you know, a guest or a topic that you'd like to hear, be sure to shoot that to us and we'll get that going. I'm trying to line up the guest for probably the first quarter of the year and get that all together and try to have a good plan on what's going on. So if you're really wanting to hear a topic or from a person, be sure to send that over. Let us know. Yeah. As far as myself, ebemorrelia.com. My email is eric@ebemorrelia. I finally have dusted off the camera and taken some pics. That's hopefully be happening a lot more. You can check out my website over on my breeding diary for updates on the 2016 season. If you're interested in any of those pairings or, you know, anything that catches your eye, just shoot me a message and I'll put you on the list so that way I kind of have an idea, you know, of what's what. As everybody knows, I'm a bit of a hoarder, so I hold on to things for quite a while. So it's probably best to get on that kind of list because I really don't go out of my way to push things. So if I know that you're interested in it, then you probably have a better shot at getting an animal from said pairing. So be sure to check that out. And like I said, my shipping window is pretty much shut down. So I'm pretty much done. If there is something that you're interested in, you know, it's the time to do payment plans and stuff like that, I welcome that kind of stuff. So you can always shoot me a message if there's an animal that you're interested in and we can ship it once the spring comes around. Or I'll probably be at Hamburg in February, what's it? February 27th. Yeah, I usually head out there with Owen. I usually don't then, but you know, I'll be there so I can deliver animals and stuff. But I'll be unveiling my new displays so you'll have to then. I mean, they'll be classier now. Oh, now you're high end. Alright, alright. So yeah, Ebemoraly.com, you can follow me on Facebook, my Facebook page, Ebemoralya, Twitter, and Instagram, all the above. And that's all I got. Go ahead, Owen. Alright, you guys can go over to rogue-reptiles.com. Check out all the latest stuff we have in Rogue. You can also check on the updates page. I did finally post up the breeding schedule for this year. We have 25 pairings, nice areas, icons, and some call your breeds. So if you see anything you like in there, feel free to drop me an email through the baby contact on the website to be put on any of the lists. And just so everybody knows, if you do not see it on the list, I'm not breeding it. So don't ask me about other animals and thinking that I'm hiding things from you. I'm not. You can also go on Facebook. You can look at rogue-reptiles.com. Give us a like over there. If you're on Facebook, we normally put ads for babies that are for sale on Facebook, where we put them on King Snake and various other places, and our own website. We kind of get to every before. Right now, the shipping window has also been shut down for me. That does not mean I won't hold onto an animal for you. If you pay for it in full, it can stay with me until it gets warmer, no problem, no charge. And I can deliver to the hamburger show on the 27th, and I believe there's some habitat graced and white plains or something sprinkled in there too. So there are other shows on the east coast as well. That's all I got, and that's all we got for you guys tonight. So all we will say is thank you all for listening, and we're going to catch you all next week for some more Amrelia Python Radio. Good night. Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me at the linebacker in NFL, where's the reptile breeder and the owner of Projekt. I've been hurtful since I was a boy, and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markle and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news. So it isn't a link so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business, and the best part is it's free. You're a buyer or breeder. You've got to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling definition, full of features that help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking 4. [BLANK_AUDIO]