Morelia Python Radio

Steven Katz of SBK Reptiles joins us to talk carpets.

In this episode we are joined by Steven Katz from SBK Reptiles. We will be talking about Steven's appraoach to keeping and breeding carpet pythons. We will be talking about his upcoming season and his take on the morelia hobby. Check out his facebook page- https://www.facebook.com/sbkreptiles?pnref=lhc

Duration:: 2h 47m
Broadcast on:: 23 Sep 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown here. You may remember me at the linebacker in NFL when I was a reptile breeder and their owner of Projekt. I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist which is why my partner Robin Markland and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. If you're a buyer or breeder you got to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling definition full of features that help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, search by sex, weight, more or other key words. Use our Buy Now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.the reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptile accounts or earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum ad. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buy or sell you ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. Ship your reptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. The materials needed to ship your reptiles successfully live customer support and our live on-time arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit ship reptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello everybody welcome to another episode of Moralia Python radio. Oh and this is number this is number 215 215. 250 shows. There was a long pause there. You made me a pause. You wouldn't understand you know. You just kind of go. I am actually a little bit under the weather but no fear. Show must go on. We will not stop the other end. We do not stop. So someone's unconscious. [Music] [Music] [Music] You might have the Skype curse. I apologize about our audio but I had to call in using my phone because for some reason blog talk is added again. Skype issue now Skype doesn't work but Skype is the company itself. Is that an issue all week? So we will keep that in mind if my audio is going to. We will see. I don't know maybe the people in the chat room can tell me if you are breaking up because you are breaking up like every couple of seconds but no worries. Steve Katz is joining us tonight. We will be talking about his various carton projects how he keeps them and breathes them. He is out on the west coast so like we say all the time. We don't say it but we say it kind of in between people but if you are out there maybe on the west coast you may be able to take in some of the things that Steve talked about and maybe apply them to what you do. I think we came through the realization at least I did this past weekend about how different a climate could be just in the United States when I was down at Bill's place in Texas and some of the things that he does that me and you wouldn't probably do because it's just totally different climate. There are many ways to do this and we are going to hear how Steve does it. It's something different that you might want to think about especially if you are a west coaster and suppose you are a east coaster about taking it into your mix about how you breathe your own reptiles. We didn't have many west coast people. We are trying to educate you people and we are doing a club fight on show. So what's new to you what was going on? I want to mention him by name but that was cool to get him out and then I finally drew up the designs and everything for the door to the snicker room because I figure if we are going into winter the last thing I want is to not end up like I had last year so we are framing out the entire thing and by next year's paraprofist if it is here I will have an actual bunk for all my snaker in most of those stupid sliding doors. You know when I was flying back from Southern Carpetfest I decided to design my perfect reptile building if I were to build it from the ground up during the past the time and that would be sweet if I could actually make this happen. With the quarantine room and the southern carpets as opposed to the northern carpets and keeping them cooler and all that kind of stuff. So now that you and your wife are looking for a house we are getting into a hard core and I know you are looking for a house. Are you like is that hindering your process now you are going like no my perfect snicker won't fit near leave your house or are you willing to come with me a little bit? Well I guess you kind of have to be able to wiggle a little bit you know I mean if I just had a place that had some land then eventually you know you could move to that but talk into my sister because she is in real estate she is helping us with the house. I explained to her how important it was that I didn't care about anything else except for the fact that it is crucial that I don't move through the where. I can't do that again you know I can't do that again so I can't do it again so yeah I explained to her so I asked her what's the turnaround time typically for for a house. And you know she said that you're looking at probably I think she said like 60 days 90 days you know. But that puts me right in the way. And then I found it in probably right around the last year I want to say it's closer to I think we're more and more into October and then of course I had it nailed down and we settled in December. So yeah it was like whoops so I would I totally understand when you're like I'm not even going to look into it like so. Yeah one move. Yeah now I'm not looking until at least until January you know I mean yeah obviously she knows what we're looking for if something is something crazy. I would almost just keep my keep my place down until until after that. I'd say the money. The bleachers are going to like I thought there at the new house I stay here with this nation until after reading season and then we'll shift everything over. Yeah. Yeah I can't. I couldn't I couldn't move to do that. You know this is prime time and I can't do that. Come on. Yes. I mean now we're heading into October. Dear. Your adult. It's like every time I walk into the room they're like up against the glass. So like are you feeding us and I'm like whoa. Calm down. Just replace water so it's a this is high time for when my adults are all dumb how about food because I guess they know it's coming and. You know I'm just trying to get myself ready for tingling so. Yeah I'm you know we talked about that I think a couple weeks ago about the fact that animals are trying to tune into. To to your season and they kind of know when it's time and my. My animals are are the same way they're they're pretty much. Gear didn't just say it's time you know feed me feed me or I'm not giving you eggs. Yeah. Pretty much what it comes to. Yeah. So so much that I got that yesterday I haven't I haven't been bit by a carbon heaters. Yeah. You got bit and I got. Yeah I got now you know. Damn from somebody your side back. Yeah. Yeah it was a male that you know the male. Oh you smaller. Okay all right good. So what was it just like. You're you're cleaning just got you on the hand or something. Yeah I mean typically I. I just opened the top. You actually usually I use the hook. I use the hook the ball at the top. And I use my hand and boom it just nailed me. Just ready for food you know. You deviated from the plan. You did everything. One day you don't is when you become a two toy. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah so. Are you going to the Oaks show this Saturday. No I don't think I'll be able to get out of my house as the pope. I'm not. Yeah. I wonder if the pope will come to this show. Who knows maybe he's a guy. Is it P the pro reptile guy. Dude you hear blessing all the reptiles I don't know what they're doing. So yeah I mean like yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're on lockdown I think pretty much so. I think everybody in the greater school. I think I'm on lockdown and I'm an hour away from you. So it's like. Yeah. No. They should do. Nobody ship me anything until this guy leaves okay. I think a FedEx truck can drive all right so. No. Yeah I mean if you're shipping out of out of Philly or into Philly. I would definitely make sure I don't know. I wouldn't do it. I would not ship this. Which is awful. I would not delay. Okay. Yeah. Look cuz this is the kind of crap that people aren't paying attention and they send a snake or whatever this is the kind of crap that a truck doesn't make it to the FedEx like doesn't make it to the FedEx facility on time. To make the last shipment to get that snake on the last plane. So because it was held up in traffic or whatever the hell. Now I'll get a FedEx facility overnight or something like that. This is the kind of stuff. Now I know that the weather on these coasts isn't that bad. And I also know that we're not being. Of your FedEx if the other places I'm saying. This is where when that kind of crap happens so. If you guys are going to ship out or ship in. It's not going to hurt the delay until after all this is. I mean they shut down. One major bridge and almost every major road around the city of Philadelphia. Yeah. For this. And you can't tell me that's not going to look like traffic. So. No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely a snow down. So. Take each people. Yeah. Steve is on the line. Let's let's get him on here and let's get this party started. Hello Steve. You're live. Welcome to the to the show. I'm glad to have you. Steve. I don't know. He knows that. That was an awful long. Or something like this. I mean. We might. Air. I don't know. This is black. I just messaged them. So. You want to be back moment. Okay. How are timing right now. So. Yeah. Anyway. I don't know. Yeah. What's going on my thing. Hey Steve there. Where. I can't. Okay. Okay. Let me mute them and then unmute them and see what goes. Yeah. Yeah. Good job. All right. Ladies and gentlemen, as always, we try to bring you the best of the reptile community. And it's entertainment. Yeah. Hey. I'm really. I'm in an advantage here because. Well, for one, I'm typing as I'm talking and you know how good I am at that. Did you. And of course we had. Missed up with her in Skype blog talk today. Anyway, so. Yeah, I know. With you. Yeah. I know you're typing so I won't ask you too many questions. But. Yeah, I know. Way to go. Oh man. You're supposed to talk. I don't know. Don't bring it into your face. It's the problem that you do. So then can you stop it and then you don't say anything. So it's like, all right. I guess I dropped now. Oh. Very close. Yeah. I'm going to go ahead and take over for a second. I'm going to see if I can. Hold on. All right. Let's go. The ladies and gentlemen, the booster is still live for the Marley Python radio t-shirts. I know I heard some slack coming from the people that is a black. T-shirt again, and apparently being very morose people that we are. We all have too many black t-shirts. All I'm asking you is buy one more black t-shirt. You don't have to wear it. Just get it. We have not hit the magic number that would get those t-shirts printed. We only have 17 t-shirts sold. We need a few more. And the booster is working out of time. And we have actually technically not raised. So if you have not, if you don't have a Marley Python radio t-shirt, which I'm going to start asking people. If you do not have one and you have not bought one, the next question you will have to be. You have to answer is why? Why haven't you done it? Because then you have to answer good enough. I'm going to make you pay right then and there for a shirt and start doing this aggressive. Holding people hostage. Anyway, go over onto the pick of the week. There's a link to the booster. You can also go to booster.com and look up Marley Python radio. And there's also a link of Facebook. Come on Marley Python radio.com. So go over there. Click at any of those sites. Head over there. Buy the t-shirt. It's $25 plus $5 shipping port. And you buy the t-shirt using your name and have a chip to my address. And contact me if that's what you want to do because I'm not going to put my address out for the airways before everybody starts sending me eight mail. So that's what we're going to do. It's on. Okay, Owen. I got this straightened out here. It turns out that the person that we thought was Steve was not Steve. No. We were clicking on somebody else. So they just listened into the show live. They're just listening into the show when we click the live. Just tell us we fucked up. We'll move on. Yeah. But now I have. All right. So Steve, thanks to nobody. We've been talking to somebody else. Great. All right. Yeah. Yeah. So welcome Steve to the show. All right. Thank you guys. Thank you. Yeah. There we go. Now we're. Now we're. All right. All right. We're doing so well. Anyway. So. So we started and tell us how you got into reptiles. Pretty much like everybody else. The fascination started, you know, when I was a little kid. I literally remember being a little toddler and going with my older brothers and my mom on hikes and filling a cardboard shoe box with as many little fence lizards as we could catch. And at the end of the trail, we would dump them all and see them all scatter for the bushes. And it just grew from there. Okay. That's cool. So what brought you from lizard like did you move further up on the reptiles or did you just go immediately right into snakes and python? No, when I was about five, I purchased a leopard gecko with my birthday money and had that for quite a few years as I got older. By the time I was 10, I ended up getting some more leopard geckos and decided I wanted to start breeding them. And that's what kind of fueled it more was wanting to breed reptiles. I thought that was really fascinating since at least 10. And I bred them. I enjoyed that. And then it was time to move on to the next thing. I did crested, the gargoyles, some chameleons, and shortly after, by the time I was 13, I got my first pair of bread lye. And after that, it was just cut loose trim the fat, I guess, sold off some of my lizards and got more morellia, specifically an ery and jaya carpet python. And that was my first carpet. And from there, it's just grown and no more lizards. Yeah, they're too high maintenance. Can you tell? Yeah, they are. I think they eat every day. So what is that you're breaking up? You're breaking up, Owen. Owen's going to call back and then I'm going to make it over. Oh. You're darn right he is, so go ahead, Eric. Yeah, go ahead. What Owen was trying to say, Steve, was, can you tell us about what type of collection that you're working with right now? I mean, you said that you got into eerying jives, which you have some really top-notch ones. Thank you. What other carpet you're working with? Right now, I have jungles, some, everybody's going to give me crap about this, a couple of jag crosses and some striped bread lye, some normal bread lye, quite a few normal eerying jives. That's kind of what I'm focused on mainly. Like I said, that was my first carpet and that's what I enjoy working with and love. So IJ's jungles, of course, mutations within that and specifically, I mean, the list goes on. Some zebras, just no inlands right now, no normal coastal, not really into the hypocostals, you know, I think you could do some cool stuff with them in terms of crossing them with other mutations. No coastal after all. You've lost me. I don't really know. No normal coastal. No normal coastal. No normal coastal. All right. Okay. All right. I'm back on now. So about that. Well, you have to be, you have to make sure what's going on with that. So aside from the carpet pythons, or I may have missed this, are you working with any other kind of pythons species? No, I for a minute, no, it's a lie. I have one green tree python, but that would still be more Elia. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a carpet, but it's more Elia. Yes. So what drew you to carpet pythons, do you suppose everything else? Their attitude, their color, their pattern, they're just a little bit cooler than other snakes in my opinion. I really like that they start off pretty much with no color, and as they grow with each shed, I mean, they just, that color generally comes in. You know, where are you going? You're self a expensive carpet python, or just a little cheapy normal, I guess as some people would say. Their color comes in, and I hate seeing, you know, at shows or pet stores, a carpet python for sale. Well, there's localities, there's so much more to them. What is it? I mean, it's a carpet python, no, no, no, no, what is it? Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And that, yeah. Cool. Yeah, I saw an ad today, because there was an ad on, I can't remember, one of the classifieds on Facebook, and they were saying that they had an IJ, and people were asking is it a cross? Is it pure? And they were saying, what do you want? 65 bucks. Yeah. Like, wow. So, one more reason to fight for three years, crap. What do you want? Yeah. Yeah. Saying that, saying that as well as the language of your ads, being like, just normal or, you know, degrade animals, okay, we did not down your own stuff. Congratulations. What? Whatever. We're room for other people. Yeah. That stuff drives me crazy. I'm a purest at heart, and seeing stuff like that really gets me going. Excellent. We'll get passion flowing in a minute. So. Yeah. Yeah. Towards the end of the program, we'll have a lot of passion going back and forth, no troubles. Yeah. But that, the end of the program is for the guests to ramp, rave, and, you know, all that other stuff, so. Yeah. So, like we said at the beginning of the show, you're over there on the West Coast. And I think that when we talk about reptiles, it's important to state where you're from because your approach may be different than, you know, how Mia and Owen approach here on the East Coast. So, I always like to, it always seems that we ask these questions over and over again, but I think that you get little, little nuggets of information, especially if you're from the area that the guest is on, so I think it's important. But that being said, what's your approach to keeping carpets? Like, just give us your basic, what you do husbandry-wise, you know, as far as caging and temperatures, you know, your maintenance, all that kind of stuff. Working with babies, I keep all of my hatchlings, whether I produce them or buy some babies from somebody else in a snake wreck with an underbelly heat source. I put perches in their cages. I keep them on paper towel and a good-sized water bowl. I keep an eye on, you know, when they're going to the restroom and how they're shedding. If they're having problems shedding, you know, I'll adjust accordingly. But generally, keeping them in a wreck isn't a problem for me over here in Southern California. I think that a perch really helps, or somewhere, you know, some fake plants for them to fill, I guess, secure, and they do better eating. So I noticed that when I didn't have a perch in their tubs, they'd be on the floor and they wouldn't really want to eat. And as soon as I had that perch in, they go climb up on it and not a problem getting them to eat for me. My sub-adults are in a bigger wreck. I keep those guys anywhere from 88 to 90 as well on the hot side. The reason I do a little bit cooler is because I noticed that I can get away with them not being as hot as, say, the babies. And they do find they still eat. And of course, I keep an eye on which snake doesn't change things accordingly. I keep them on pine shavings, give them a hide cave and a good sized water bowl. And if they have any problem shedding, same thing. I either switch them to cypress mulch, give them a soak, or give them, like spagnum, stuff like that. My adults, I keep in melamine cages, and they have a perch. So for most of the year, they have cypress mulch, and they still have a nesting box with moist cypress mulch that they go into and retreat. And same thing, those guys, I keep about 88 to 90 in their hot spot. And they just thrive. Change water as needed, if I pretty much check on my snakes every day, if the water's dirty, just change it. I've heard so many bad stories about somebody not changing a water bowl, and their snake drinking from it and something coming up, and they need to go see a vet after. Same thing with them taking a dump. It's so easy to just throw some shavings over that, grab that handful, trash it, and then refill that spot with fresh shavings. It takes two seconds. So I try to keep them very clean. There's no exceptions for dirtiness. It looks nasty, smells nasty, and mine just thrived for me doing that in terms of temps and the bedding I keep them on, and husbandry, I guess, across the board. Okay. So do you notice the difference between, so if you're keeping jungles, say, IJ's, which tend to, like, get a little warmer, do you notice the difference between that and the way you keep, say, your bread lye? No. For you. Throughout the year, they're pretty much all kept the same. For you lye, you can keep just like jungles and IJ's in my personal experience in terms of breeding them. That's a little bit different, though. But yeah. Very good. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. No, no, no. Go ahead. Yeah. Keep all three of those in the same care, same circumstances, in my opinion, with my experience. I haven't had any problems at all. Okay. Yeah, we'll get into the breeding when we hit on that, maybe how you change up your bread lye as opposed to your other ones. But how about, well, do you have a dedicated reptile room or you just have what you set up like as far as I can? Most people, I think, try to have a reptile room and when you're really invested and into it, it just kind of takes over every part of the house one way or another. Oh, yeah, that is true. So that's happened with me, but I do have majority of my carpet pythons. I keep in my garage and they thrive in there. I do have a green tree python in the bedroom and that's pretty much it. So my reptile room would be my garage. Okay. Now, do you do like a supplemental heating as far as like the ambient or you're just using the hotspots and whatever the room temperature is? I have all my heat on thermostats, so the hot spot is set to, like I said, anywhere from 88 to 90 and on some summer days where it gets too hot, the thermostat shuts off the heat and they do fine. I'm in there constantly. I'm always concerned about too hot or too cold even though they're just fine and more often than not, they're still sitting on the heat side, still trying to get that heat and it's, you know, 92, 94, sometimes on that side. The cooler end tends to get down to the 80s, believe it or not, even in my garage on hot days. Wow. That's, you know, that's, again, this is just so crazy that I think that Owen would probably say the same thing that I'm about to say, like, so my ambient temperature in my room is probably maybe 78 to 80 degrees and then, like, as far as hotspots go, you're probably looking at maybe 85 tops, you know, but I know that Chris, so let me up in, ease up in New York, he kind of has that hotter temperature approach, which is, I just find it interesting, you know, it's just, there's so many different ways. I mean, the reason that I kind of went cooler is because I noticed that they were always trying to get away from the heat, but you're saying that this is what triggered this is that you're saying that they're always going to the heat, so that's just fascinating, huh? Maybe, maybe that's why I can't get mine to stop eating. No, no, no, no, regardless, well, we are talking about animals raised in different settings in different places. I mean, what I would be, I would find extremely interesting is if we took an animal from Steve's and brought it here, how it would react to the alterations in keeping, if it would eat, if it would breed, if it would do all this stuff, it would probably act fine, but I would want to say that this is probably why, every once in a while, you get that one animal that once you get it, it takes a month for it to start eating and functioning and it's probably a big culture shock to them, or even, yeah, so that's something I would like to try. Yeah, that wouldn't be a shocker to me at all, I mean, when I first moved my collection into my garage, the first thing I did was put the cages in there and set them up with no animals and I was checking in there day and night and seeing what the temps were and I'm thinking, oh, it's going to be too hot, you know, maybe it's going to be too hot and there's some stuff in and they thrive, and like I said, more often than not, they're on the hot end, I'm basking. Interesting. Now, let me ask you this question, this would be just an interesting tip here, do you turn your heat off at night? No, I have mine set to night drop. So it goes down the aisle during the summer here in Southern California, I mean, we have 80 degree nights, but I'll set it down to, you know, 75 to 78, which sounds funny because I think Owen said, that's his cool end? Yeah, it was like, I think my ambient room temperature is 80, 82 and then my cages, their hot spots are all set to 85, 84, I have a few guys that like a little bit warmer, but yeah, that's, you know, you're talking like 80 something nights, I mean, like I've dropped my animals close to 80 and seen breeding action, so it's, you know, I mean, I, you drop it close to 80 and all the sudden, the docels are like, all right, so, you know, it's one of those things, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I was the reason that I was asking is because sometimes people, like I turn my heat off at night and it really doesn't get that cold, but I don't have any heat on at night, so you're maybe looking at maybe 78 degrees, it drops down to, but I notice with like my diamond pythons, I keep them outside of my reptile room and they get down maybe 65, 70, you know, like, you know, that, you know, that, that cold and what they'll do is they'll, they have like 95 degree hot spot and they'll come out and they'll bask in there for a while and then, you know, and they're cooled down at night, but this is interesting, all right, so you do anything as far as lighting, do you, do you do anything with that? I, as a heat source or like UVB, we're talking. Either or, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, do you use like, I don't know, like some people use like bulbs for eating or using, for like adults and such. For my adults, I have a heat bulb. I have a little cage guard that's around that to prevent them from burning themselves, even though they likely won't, I just don't want any scars on my animals. I personally keep like my jungles and my, my bread lie and one IJ under, under UVB and I personally believe it helps their color. Not crucial to health, but helps, helps their color. I could see that. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah, they always look better in the sun. Huh, very good. What about, and you were saying that your carpets are feeders, they're feeding all the time. You feed, are you a weekly feeder or you seasonal feeder, how do you work it down? So anything that I have that is an adult and not one of my breeder animals. And I had, I had two big adult male bread lie that were, you know, bonafide eight feet and, you know, we're talking almost as thick as a small guinea pig. You know, just huge and massive. I was getting away with feeding those guys four times a year, a extremely large jumbo rat and they were puppy dog pain. You know, I could reach in there and pull them out and no problems. My other stuff that's breeding, I do have to feed once a week, even if it's not near breeding season, you know, right after, right before they're eating once a week for me as well as babies. So I'm pretty much a once a week feeder. Okay. Cool. Yeah, like I said, can't get them to stop. So not necessarily a bad thing, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And let me real quick add and touch on that. Maybe that's because I'm keeping them so hot. I do keep an eye on not allowing my snakes to become obese. I do take them out and let them crawl around. I've seen in some collections snakes that don't climb around, don't do anything. And they kind of just look limp and they don't really breed and they don't, they almost don't even look obese, but they don't do much and I keep mine warm and I do pay attention to that. So don't just take this as, oh, I could feed them once a week, huge meals and get them big and fat and they'll thrive if they keep wanting to eat. You know, keep an eye and make sure that yours don't become obese if you're taking what I'm saying to heart. Sure. So don't, don't be the guinea pig size rat you fry for Python every three years. Yeah. Good job. All right. We can take that. That's a lesson. We can all take the heart. Eric. Yeah. That's not me. So does the area you live in lend itself to humidity or hydration issues? If so, do you, how do you overcome them? Do you have any problems with that? The humidity here, I mean, I couldn't tell you, I don't keep track of humidity with any gauges, whether it be for personally or for my reptile collection. Notice that per cage in one room, not only my collection, people that I work with, you know, friends of mine, one cage could be right next to the other and that snake be having a, a humidity issue and it's kept the same way. And I think it's, it just varies pretty much per cage, not per animal. When I do have the problems, you know, I catch it, I soak the animal that day, pull off the skin and then I generally keep them on cypress mulch or moss or I add in a separate box with the mulch or the moss moistened, of course. So that way they have the option to go in there and right before a shed they'll go in there and they shed in one piece and no more problems. Okay, awesome and if you could give one kit to keepers of carpet pythons, what would that be? Get a snake hook, that is a good one. And open, open their tub or cage with your face by your shoulders and your arm completely extended up. Oh, look, is there a story behind that? Did you like do the whole, like, I'm going to look in real quick and then get met with teeth? All my stuff, I mean, it's just as soon as I open that tub there, more on that coming fly out. I will knock, I will knock on wood right now. I have never received what I like to call a face bite. A kiss? A face bite is exactly as it sounds, they put teeth on your face. So, see, did you get close to one of those or no? No, luckily I have not been tagged in the face, it's always something I worry about, mainly a tooth going through your eyelid and catching your eye. That happened to Jason Bailin at his show, he's like, look at this pretty jungle, it's getting right in the face all the way up. And we were all like, oh my God, and he goes, look, he put it back in, it was the weird stuff that happens to show us anyway, so that is a good tip to have those. He cooked and give him something to perch on, and that's it. There you go. Now do you find, I always like to head in this question and delve into this a little bit, do you find that your adult perch regularly? Yes, when I had my big eight foot bread lie before I sold those guys off, and we'll get more into that later as the breeding topic comes around. Those guys would perch, and what I did was I used these little end caps that are made for holding up a shower curtain rod that you could get at a hardware store. And I super glued those to the sides of my cages and cut a PVC pipe, big enough to slip right in, and my big eight footers would perch on that. My Aryan jayas tend to sit on the side of what I use as styrofoam box for their egg laying box, kind of like a kid would sit on like a curb or the side of the wall, just hanging off to the side. So I do notice my adults come perch. That's cool. See, I noticed that like with mine, for earlier, I used to give them the chance to perch, and I noticed that they never would, so I kind of just moved away from it, but I don't know. I hear that more and more that they perch, it's interesting. Yeah, definitely not all the time, but they will utilize it. What would be your favorite carpet in the complex? Yeah, I wonder, could it be more Elia? No. It'd be carpet. But we'll get to more Elia things later. Oh, you mean it's fine, but when I say, when I say carpet complex, I'm including bread live, so. Okay. Then bread live. All right. Okay. And bread lie hands down, just. Okay. From the moment I saw them, I knew I had to have them, and I knew nothing about them, and just started doing research and got them not too long after. Okay. So, we did some research first. Yeah. One of those guys like, and then I bought it, and then I'm like, what do I do? Yeah. Good. Yeah, this Burmese python only gets four to five feet, right? Yeah. Yeah. So what is it about the, what is it about the bread lie that, that, that gets you, like, what, when you first saw them, what stood out to them, is it the color, is it what? Definitely the color, their, their head shape is, I think, bigger than other carpets. It's just massive. Yeah. Yeah. But that, that brick red, and I had no idea when I had got them about Morse of any types, but comparing them just, the wild type is just stunning that brick red, and off to the tail, how the color changes, and even the pattern. So they're just, just stunning, in my opinion, just when you're comparing wild types to each other. Very cool. And like you had mentioned earlier, that you, you work with one Condro, and I think I read on your website, maybe it was your facial page about, you know, that you're going to try to breed it to a carpet? Yes. Are you going for the Carpondros? Is that... You're going for the Carpondros. This interview is over. Yeah. And you're either going to catch fire for saying that. Well, at least you are. You did Carpondro. If you were said, I will now make the Bredal Condro. I'd be done. I know. No. Yeah. Thank God. Summer's trained. So. Yeah. I'm going to go for the Carpondros. People like them. They tend to sell. I mean, there's not too many around that I see for sale every year. But if I produce them, I do have somebody who would take them off my hands if I couldn't sell them. And I'm okay with keeping them, you know. Long term, if they didn't sell. They're pretty. They're cool. It's the best of both worlds. Yeah. I must admit that, you know, I was not really... A huge fan of Carpondros till I saw the ones. Oh, my God. Bill got to you, didn't he? Bill's out. Yep. Yep. I'll tell you, Owen, they're pretty impressive when you see them impressive. I blame Bill for them. I don't know. I don't know if it was something that I would ever breed per se, but it's definitely something that I would keep. I would admit it would definitely be... I was going to say, I would be something that I definitely would, like, keep as a pet, you know. I still think about wanting to get the colon spice on. Just 'cause. Oh, God. Oh, God. No. Oh, my. Oh, Lord, no. Now the phone conversation is over. And now it's over. Now it's going. Close it off. But it said... See, this is what fascinates me with this topic is, is that there are certain species that you can't cross, but then there's certain species that you can cross. Even though, you know, like, genetically, if you look at it, it's the same thing. I know. You look... Yeah, I know. But you have your own line. It's the same thing. I thought I wanted to take my example check and cross it to, you know, a hypo-brettal. You'd be over here in five minutes to smack me. So... No, to repel this. The hypo-brettal. Exactly. Give me that. You don't deserve this. You sit down and think about what you've done. I mean, also I joke about rough-scale chondro, but I do not want to be the guy that does that first. Um, I will see it, but I don't want to, I don't want to do it. So... Make history. Do it. No, no. I can't. But... And I would admit that there's something about a carpondro where it looks like, some of the ones that look more green tree python in the body structure, but have the messed up weird colors that I can only tribute to the carpondro, like, uh, uh, still had that one that's like green. But it looks like somebody went over it once or twice with a black spray paint. I mean, it has like, it has like black speckles and spots and weird crap all over it. That looks funky to me. And I can admit that that's an attractive looking animal. I don't want it, but you know, it's pretty cool. So... And of course, people are like all about the different colors of chondros and mixing that with carpondros or jag chondros. I know probably maybe even this year. I've been waiting for the zebra to crop into carpondros like this. I don't even know what the hell you'd call it, but you know, instead of a jag chondro, the zebra pondro, or the hell you guys want to say. All right. Yeah. Give it time. Yeah. I guess, I guess the problem that I have with that, the only, the only issue I, that's not that I have a problem with it, but I'm sure that you guys would agree, um, especially when you're looking at like, breadle jags or something like that, those ij jags that would be another one, so those normal looking offspring, um, could pass as a normal ij or a normal, uh, breadle, you know, even though the jag part of it will be really cool, and I think you'd be able to tell if the normal ones, that's where you all should invest in blackheads. Yeah. Or, or, or understand that you're not gonna go and get, if you want, if an important project is that important to you, that you need pure stocks, go directly to the source. Don't go from, this is the third guy that's own this animal, he doesn't have any information for you to back up his claims, but you heard about it, or if you're at the table, you can ever take their stuff as a pure animal, um, that's obvious, um, so. I think it comes down to responsible selling and marketing, and say what it is, we see, we see 93% jungle jags, but you don't ever see the 93% jungle jag sibling, um, it's very rare. Right, those have already been sold to somebody else's table as a jungle, or, yep, or wholesale to a, uh, big reptile company that's just going to pump them out to little reptile stores, and then you're gonna walk in and see carpet pipe on for sale, $65. Perfect. Yeah, exactly. That's, that's where you're at with this kind of stuff, and I guess where it comes with me with the carpondra stuff is, um, the carpondra is like the marriage between a carpet and a green tree. I have that. It's called a rough scale, so, um, yeah, the thing looks like it takes a colon pipe on just for, as, for as an example, you need your way to get a colon, I don't think you would ever be able to pass that off as a normal carpet, and it definitely won't pass as a Poland, but I can tell you that I tell you what, one of the, when, when I was at Bill's place, the one carpondra that he had, if you would have sold it to me as a, like a, a crazy, um, Kondro, you know, like a crazy looking Kondro, I would have bought it for a flying sinker. Yeah. I would have thought it was a crazy looking Kondro, like, uh, imagine it was some dumbass. Yeah, I mean, but, I mean, imagine if there was some dumbass who bought the colon and then posted it up on Facebook saying, look at my new Bollands Python. Can you imagine that as locality, right? Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's from a mountain. Can you imagine? I mean, can you imagine wanting you to just waste it on that? So I guess, I mean, that's knowing snakes. Crazier. Go ahead. No. Yeah. Well, I was going to say us knowing snakes, I mean, you cross a carpet and a Bollands for the colon and, uh, you could tell right off the back, but if you, you know, breed one of the parents back to one of the babies and do that again, it's the same issue as the high percentage jags. You know, some of those siblings are going to favor one species and you might be able to pass it off at that point and Bollands being hard to breed. I mean, not too many people brag about, you know, all their Bollands clutches, uh, you might run into issues going that route. Yeah. I mean, there's already issues with the, with the subspecies of carpets, you know, with the jag subs. Yeah. Hmm. I don't know, interesting, but it is, uh, we'll talk some breeding now. Yes, we will. Um, why don't you walk us through what your approach is to, uh, breeding step by step. Let's, uh, let's go with other carpets, we'll get to the brettles later. So go with the normal guys. Uh, first thing I do is wait for this brutal heat to go away, which could be as late as the end of November, uh, sometimes mid December. Okay. Um, so once the heat goes away, you know, um, or at least my nights are staying cool, then I start to, you know, uh, drop my, my temps both day and night. Um, second thing I do is grab my complete carpet, Python book that Mick and Justin wrote and make sure I, I go over everything again. You know, this is going to be the fourth, uh, consecutive year that I've, uh, bred carpets and I'll still look at that book. You know, um, I want to be successful in doing this, so I'm going to look at the book and remember what works for me. I have my own notes that I write down. Um, but like I said, drop those temps and just keep in mind they do all the work. Wow. Okay. Uh, you just sit back and watch, right? Yeah, exactly. I don't know how to do anything, but with them together, they do it. Yeah, and upload pictures of their, uh, tales locked up and exactly, I take pictures, I wait for eggs, then the work isn't even mine either. Either it's the incubators or it's mom, so I just have to get a lot, so, all right. But now I'll go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I was going to say, uh, you know, of course winding down on the food and consumption and slowly weaning them off and just having them go all the winter with no food. And like I said, dropping their temps, uh, accordingly. Everybody, depending on whether you have a reptile room or thermostat hooked up to your cage or in a different part of the state or world, it's going to be weather permitting pretty much. Yeah? Yeah, pretty much. So, uh, what do you differently when it comes to the bloodline? Those guys I have in my biggest cage unit, um, that I have on a stand come winter, the stand gets dropped to the floor, uh, right on the floor, um, and I dropped their temps, I said it. So, you know, of course, you know, slowly wind them down. You don't want to shock them, but by the end of it, it's pretty much just as cold as it will get. I cracked their glass doors open so that cold could get in, um, and find myself opening up my garage door to let in that cold air, um, you know, throughout, throughout the night. Sometimes I go in the middle of the night and I open it up, um, get some cold air in there. And like I said, I dropped those guys, uh, to 60 and I believe at one point I had them at like 58 and I was walking the neck and I'm thinking, you know, um, I'm not doing it right. He's like 58. That's colder than me or something. It was something where it was a few degrees cooler than him and he's like, no, that's pretty cold, like you could maybe warm them up a little bit more, maybe give them a little bit more. Um, and, um, do you give them a basket spot during the day or give them a little bit more eat during the day? Yes. Uh, definitely still a 90 degree, uh, basking spot. There's only a few days, um, a few consecutive days that I'll drop that hot spot, um, from 84 to 88 and I'll kind of bounce that around. So I guess in the sense during breeding season, I'm working a little bit, but it's only on the thermostat. It's, it's funny because you've said about your, your, your keeping differences with your whole, uh, basking spot and all those other things, but as far as breeding bread light, you and I are on the same page, like you're red on the money. So, um, keeping different places, but really, I like that. Yeah. All right. So, uh, why don't you tell us a story of, um, what you did and what was the kind of the build up to producing your first clutch of bread? Um, it started in, uh, 2008 when I bought my first pair, um, and my first snakes ever still have the receipt in my little, uh, things to, my little trophy bin, I guess, um, and shortly after, um, you know, I was still a kid when I had them, um, some family stuff came up and I had to sell off that initial pair. So, I still wanted to breed them, was always looking, um, I remember being at, I think it was the 2010 N.A.R.B.C. Anaheim show and not knowing who Justin Joolander was, but holding his, uh, breadlight. And I just remember his elaborate Australian addiction display and had no idea that there's, you know, people breeding carpets for a living. I'm thinking I'm the only guy who breeds carpets. I didn't know anybody. I didn't talk to anybody online. I'm just, I'm the odd ball out who likes, you know, more Elliot, um, and then was finally able to, um, get a, a pair of, uh, 2010 babies, um, from a guy in New York and just started raising those up, um, along the way in 2011, I got a pair of, uh, a yearling pair of genetic stripes and I'm raising those up as well and I'm thinking, well, I want to produce a breadlight a little sooner, so I invest in some adults. And the first person I contact is Nick Muddin, of course, because by this time I now know some names, maybe three, um, I know these work ones, all right, so I contact him and of course he doesn't have an adult female ready to breed animal, because who does? You're going to breed, all right? And who's willing to sell that? Exactly. Exactly. So I contact him and he's like, no, no, ready to breed females, but I got a male that I'll sell you and, you know, he was, he was a twin male and all this stuff and he looks awesome. I see a picture of him on his website and I say, you know what, I'll do it. So I buy that guy and sure enough, in a local reptile store, somebody had an adult female that they knew I was looking for, um, at least that's what it was marked as on the cage and I, I bought that and then I bought another one from somebody online, um, so now I have 1.2 and we're now in 2012, okay? I start dropping the temps, you know, cooling them down, doing everything that the book says and everybody's telling me to do and seeing no interest at all and I have all three of them together. I'm pulling the male out, separating them, um, feeding them, putting them back together. All kinds of nonsense that, you know, when you're, when you're desperate, you're desperate, that kind of thing. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. You throw, you throw a jello at the wall and see what sticks. Yeah. So I'm doing all of that, um, just man, this is what I really want to produce, I'm, I'm not seeing anything, I'm doing it all wrong, I'm doing it all wrong is what I'm telling myself. So that's 2012, uh, winter that we go through nothing. Um, 2013, we do it again and I see, uh, one of the big, uh, females in quote, uh, uh, laying belly up and stuff and I'm thinking I did it, you know, I'm close and, you know, it sheds and then I take out that shed skin and it's now in a cage by itself. I go to work, I come home that day and it shed again. I'm like twice in one day, what the hell is going on? That doesn't make any sense. Wait. And I contacted some people and they said you're crazy. It's not, you know, you missed a shed. I'm like, no, both were wet. It's in a cage by itself. I, I know what I'm doing. Oh, well, I don't know what I'm doing, but I know, I know, I know what you're going on. I can count the one. All right. Yeah. Um, and so laying belly up, get the sheds, nothing, you know, trying to palpate it and don't fill eggs and, you know, talking to Nick and he's like, well, if it's a female, you know, she likely reabsorbed and you got as close as you could get to producing some without producing some. He goes to try again and where we got that's 2013, um, so 2014 last year, I'm seeing nothing and, um, I put up on my website, all of my bread life for sale, my normal pair from 2010, my genetic stripe pair and these adults and I'm saying, you know, take them all for this killer price or loan price or pair price, I'm just ready to throw in the towel. And I have, I work at a full line reptile store in, uh, Montclair, Amazon reptile center. Okay. And the owner, Mike, um, you know, a good friend of mine, um, agreed to come down to my house and help me probe these big animals since I knew nobody else to help me and hold these things. Right. Um, probing a eight foot animal by yourself can be difficult. Yeah. All right. So we probed them and my 1.2 turns out to be 3.0. Oh, it was so afraid we were headed here. Yeah. That's, that's where we're here guys. Um, so I just kind of said, well, there's a chance I was doing it, right? But you can't breathe three males together. No, you can't. They can't happen. Uh, so, um, I will give this to Nick. His animal was, uh, properly sexed and it sold it to me as a male and it was a male. Those other two were wrong. So I sold those three off. Um, I took the animals offline off my website and no longer, no longer had them up for sale. And I, you know, slammed my normals with food and my genetic stripes with food and did the same process I was doing for those guys. Um, and sure enough, um, oh, I don't know, I think I saw the first, um, tail, tails locking up in February because, you know, they're a little bit different, um, they're later than everything else. Um, so it worked, you know, taking them down cold as I mentioned earlier and, um, not feeding them and I got some eggs from both of them and four days after, you know, I got my genetic stripe clutch, they all went bad very quick, like I said, four days. Um, but the normals stayed strong and I lost one egg, you know, uh, like two weeks before they hatched and the rest all hatched and they're all doing great and I have one pair that I was going to put up for sale but, uh, sold last night before I even put them up. So those are doing great. Awesome. Very cool. So that sounds, that's a good story. Yeah, that's, that's the story of how I bred my bread line. Yeah. Hey, and you know what, it's, it's a story that I'm finding out is way more common when it comes to bread line is a lot of the times you hear, um, not necessarily the missection, but people getting close but then not getting it right to the edge or like they're not dropping their tents down or because there's such late breeders and you said even to your first loss go February. Yeah. I have people calling me in like March and saying, I haven't seen any action for a separate of them. I'm like, put them back together. Yeah. Don't take them apart until like May. Yeah. He's like. Don't take them apart until you see that she ovulates or until she lays eggs. Exactly. Yeah. The problem is if you have ourselves so ingrained with the normal breeding, you get down to the spring breeders, people quit to early. So, uh, yeah. The other common thing with, uh, bread lines, everybody's selling their four and five year old adults that don't breed at three and four years of age, but um, two years. Yeah. Yeah. And you get a little more. So. Yeah. Sell me all your five year old females guys. I will get what I'm doing. That's how I got my second female is somebody had a five year old that they, uh, um, wasn't going for them. So she's here and then I'll give her her first shot with me this year. So. Yeah. Isn't that, that funny that with carpets, if, if it's a three to six year old virgin female posted online, you're like, no, I don't want that. It's a virgin because when they put it with their mail, it didn't produce or lay eggs, but a virgin female, five to eight year old bread lie is a goldmine because. That's right. That's right in my house. That's where you should be. So. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody don't give up on your bread all so early. So. And I assume that can go across the board. I've not worked with inlands, but I assume inlands, diamonds, uh, that probably kind of worked the same way. So. I would say any snake, even your ball pythons and corn snakes, if you're truly into it, don't give up. I'm in this for the hobby. You know, it's, it's really rewarding to sell a snake, but stick it out. It's fun. Yeah. Well, I work with ugly animals, um, nobody likes water pythons anyway. Um, so I noticed, uh, in one of your picks, you sent us or Eric sent me, you sent to him, um, your jungle is all kind of twisted up. Uh, have you noticed this in other females right before they lay? Um, or has this just been a one time experience? Um, I think I'll twist it up. Yeah. That's for everybody. That female really did, uh, tie herself into a knot. Uh, it was, it was quite interesting, um, witnessing that, you know, because she couldn't, when I pulled open the tub, if she wanted to, she couldn't have moved and tagged me or done anything. She was just, she was all tied up. Um, and of course I left her alone and she found her way. But in my experience, um, when the females are gravid, uh, just like the book says and everybody talks about and post pictures about, they will lay, you know, upside down and, and look dead. But that female is the first one I've had, like, tie herself up and just, she really, she really wanted to show me something and she was actually a eight year old animal at that time, seven year old animal. It was her first time breeding, she was a mouse there, so it took forever to get her off-size. So you think maybe it's because of the fact that she was in a bin, right? Uh-huh. So maybe, I don't know if that had something to do with it, or if she was just kind of trying to get them all warm and really kind of not, or if she's just stupid. Um, either one works, but, um, I noticed, uh, I noticed right before that female's going to lay, that my females do that crazy position. So, yeah. They've never, like, oh, and I think you told me your snakes best belly up sometimes. Mine never do that. Um, some girls do. I don't. Yeah, I never get that, but as soon as she's going to lay, like, I mean, like, if I, if I open up the tub or a cage or whatever, and I see a snake look like this, uh, the eggs are coming the next day. Well, I imagine, I imagine labor in any animal is uncomfortable. So, um, for all I know, this could be their way of kind of dealing with that kind of stuff. Um, and, uh, also with the basking belly up, uh, I count that as that, uh, we have different ways of eating our systems. All my guys are heated by, uh, over the top ambient, uh, rating heat panels. So, the warm, the eggs, they do have to flip them up, uh, if you got heat coming from the bottom, maybe they don't need to. So. Yeah, that snake, uh, was in a rack with underbelly heating, and I just like to tell myself that instinct kicks in and, you know, the sun is above them and in the wild, they would shine their belly to the sun and say, yeah, one, this, uh, but I don't know, it's probably them being uncomfortable that makes them do it. I don't think anybody, maybe, maybe Nick will write a book on that. Maybe that'll be the next paper, yeah, we'll have to tell them how uncomfortable us snakes are looking at the moment. Yeah. Um, and you tell us about that. I just think it's a good thing that if you're breeding, if you're breeding for the first time, this would be one of those things that, you know, it says, I thought that I've bred previous. Yeah. These are one of the things that you take pictures of and run screaming to the internet with like, you know, what's going on with this. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I'm saying like, if you, if you see that, then this would be, this would be like one of those, uh, feelings that you're, maybe you're on the right track and prepare for eggs. It'd be there the next day. Yeah. Definitely. So, uh, can you tell us about your experiences doing a, am I clutch with the, with your jungle? Was it this jungle? Go ahead. Am I clutch? It was not this jungle, this, uh, jungle, the jungle in the picture, laying belly up, I did artificial incubation. Okay. I decided to do a, another female that I got from, uh, gelander, um, I allowed her to do maternal incubation. If you ask me how that went, um, learning experience, even though I've successfully done maternal, um, maternal incubation with, um, my IJs and other, um, stuff, uh, my jungles, I, I don't know, I got inside my own head and poured some water into the cypress mulch that she was sitting on, except she had pushed the cypress mulch off. So it was just this, uh, the bottom of the container that she was in. So I drowned the ache and, uh, yes, and instead of realizing, you know, okay, the bottom ones are drowned, let me just pull her off and save the top half of the clutch, mind you, this was a first year female that I got as a baby and she laid 23 eggs after I counted all of them. Uh huh. I left the whole clutch in thinking, you know, mother's no bad, but I screwed up the bottom. The rest will be fine. And they all, all that absorption, all the dead eggs, I mean, it just spread. And the three top ones went full term, but did not, they still died, uh, before due date. And pulled her off and cut them open. And that's my learning experience. But, uh, maternal incubation is a very rewarding, I mean, anybody you talk to that has done it successfully will definitely say that it's awesome. You know, you're, you're expecting eggs to hatch around day 60 because that's the, that's what it says, right, day 60, but we know that they go a little longer when they're maternal incubated. So you're checking every day now and one day you check and you see either snakes, you know, in the entire cage or just one peeping out and her coils loosened. Um, no, I, I've not yet tried it, but there are some people that say I should, but. If you do it, make up, uh, make the substrate, her, her egg lane substrate and tub, um, had a consistency where it's not too wet and then forget about her. Previous years I had done it and was successful and I got inside my own head, you know, is a different cage, a different setup. And I just added just a little bit of water, you know, it's just a little bit. It looks a little dry and I drowned the clutch and I learned and some may laugh, some will feel bad, some will say, damn, you're an idiot, but I learned it's part of the hobby. That's right. Yeah. As long as you can, uh, uh, learn something from it, you're good to go. Awesome. So, let's talk about some of the stuff that's in your collection, uh, the carpet groups that you're working with, um, let's, uh, let's start with your jungles, like what kind of group you have, what's the, what would be the highlights of your, uh, green projects? Uh, for my jungles? Yup. Um, give me one minute, I'm going to look at them one second. Not everybody has it all memorized like you, Eric. That's why everybody needs a copy book. Everybody needs a copy book, fantastic copy book. Yup. Yup. Sorry about that. Uh, I had to run through, uh, through, uh, uh, some loud noises. Uh, let's see, looking, my line up this year for jungles specifically, I have a normal male that I plan, I mean, that's the one that everybody compliments, that's the one on my business card and my profile picture on my Facebook, um, I plan on pairing him with that julander female again this season to produce some normal pure jungles. I plan on pairing up, uh, my male zebra that is a sire to my 2015 clutch of jungles. Um, he's a Bradley line male and I plan on pairing him up with a unrelated female that I also got from Nick Muddin to get some super zebra's. I also plan on pairing that guy with a, uh, zebra jag that I got from, uh, Todd Dyer and making some super zebra jags, uh, zebra jags and some crosses that, um, I don't know what to do with just yet, I always joke and say, I always joke and say I have a, a kribbo to give, uh, the jagsibs too, but everybody thinks that's serious, so I don't say that anymore. Yeah. Um, but I, but I, yeah, I do have, uh, uh, friends and homes that'll take them for free and people that I trust, um, because I personally complain about the crosses, um, I'm only doing them because people ask me all the time for them, um, and I want to produce a super zebra jag because I think those are killer. Um, so I'll be responsible with my jag zibs as far as that goes, um, and I will pair the female that, uh, is in that picture laying all inverted, I will pair up with a jungle jag that's also, uh, from Todd Dyer, psychotic exotic lion, um, and make some, just jungle jags, and that's really it for my jungles, uh, but it's a lot. If they all lay, you know, 15 plus eggs, yeah, that is a pretty good amount of babies. So, but good projects. I like those. Thank you. I'll have some, uh, what if all goes well and I don't drown the eggs, they'll be for sale in 2016. So check out my site. That's all I want to talk about here, everybody. Wait, which question? I'm sorry. Uh, no, no. I would say what about your IJ's? What kind of, uh, what do you got to go and roll with them this year? Well, I, for those that have followed my Instagram and Facebook page, I have that, you know, very dark black IJ male, um, that has sired all of my IJ clutches, uh, his name is Diablo. Yes, uh, and in talking, in talking to people, um, you know, they've said, you know, specifically like Nick, a couple other guys, they looked like old school IJ's that were, you know, wild caught and imported back in the day, um, before they produced captive bread ones and then sold off all the wild caught ones. Uh, he was born in, or excuse me, hatched in 1999. Um, a person literally walked in and said, I don't want him anymore. It's, uh, pure IJ male, he eats medium rats and that was it and that he hatched in 99. He looks old and beat up, whether his parents were imported or he was, um, I don't know, but he's dark black and everybody says that he looks pure. I plan on breeding him to, um, one of his daughters from 2013 to fall and seen if anything genetic is there in terms of the black coloring. Uh, I also brought him on carrying, go ahead, I was, I was just going to ask real quick, have you, I might have missed this, but have you produced clutches with him before or no? Yes. Well, I had, you know, wrestled him away from you, I mean, I had a black IJ male, I figured he'd be on your doorstep by now. So, um, most are coloring up nicely. And that's what most people are, are complimenting is, uh, you know, my nice pretty IJ's, they, they look great. Um, so they're pretty light. Um, this year, I think I'm going to hold back some more and see if any stay dark, but I haven't, you know, not too many people contact me saying, you know, the snake is black. Cause then I would say, let me buy it back. It's back to me and I will piece it. Yeah. Yeah. I'll send you five. Give me that one back. Yeah. This is why I have not sold anything poison ivy clutch. Yes. You know, there are so many people circling Eric waiting for him to do that. It's ridiculous. No. Eric, didn't you say that you were going to send me poison ivy this fall actually? So I compare her with no, no pressure being on, on live. I can't confirm that that is not going to happen. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I try though. Okay. And breeding aspect in normal, in normal breeding loans, the male travels just so you know. So if anyone was sending anybody anything, so, yeah, I'm looking at my boy. I'm looking at the pictures. I'm trying to find a picture. Yeah. You know, I, I would have seen with like some, I think the difference with, I don't know if I've been able to capture this on, on camera or not. It's almost like though with poison ivy, she has no pattern. Mm. Yeah. Can you see the pattern on your guys? This guy, I'm literally looking in at him right now as he's looking ready to kiss me. I can't, I can see a pattern on him. I don't, let me see if I could upload a picture quickly to the group message while I'm talking. Yeah. Okay. But he is, he is on my page, um, and Facebook page, yeah, he's on my Facebook page and then scram all that good stuff. But yeah, I see a pattern. He's, he's just very dark black. His eyes are like the grudge black. His belly has like a purplish black pigment on it. And the bands are nowhere near. I wouldn't even call them brown. I would just call them a very dark gray. He has like no yellow, no red for that matter. So if it's genetic, I guess I could go either way, if, if we're talking an etheristic or azanthic, you know, those, those two known genetics for, I guess, carpets. If he proved out to be something else, then who knows, you know, what to look for as far as an indicator or what the gene does or how it acts, but if I were to say that he looks like something genetic, it would be close to saying azanthic or an etheristic, which me now having an azanthic IJ, uh, he'd look so different. Yeah. Now, what I've noticed with the offspring to poison ivy is that some of the babies look different, um, but they almost look like head-exanic IJs, if you know what I'm talking about. I guess people that have head-exanics would know what I'm talking about, um, but they have a different look to them. Okay. And, I don't know, they just, they, they just look different, like some are like, you know, looks like classic IJs, the bands are really black, but then there's these other ones that sort of, they're, they look different, but I don't know, I guess Tom will tell. Yeah. Who knows, hopefully, hopefully everybody could prove something out. I mean, I, I think that's why I do it. That would be nice. Um, Steve, in this picture, are there two animals here? Is that what I'm looking at? Uh, yes. The yellow is the darker one. Thank you for that picture. And that is him not in shed. You can barely see his head that's ridiculous. Yeah. I'm going to pull up pictures now. I'm just going to, I'll do that. Um, anyways, yeah, that's him not in shed. A lot of people always ask, um, and no, he's not in shed in that picture. And because of that, I had to actually upload pictures of him in shed so people could see the difference. Wow. Yeah. You, you, you could even get these crazy kids together. So I mean, you know, holy crap. I'm ready when Eric is working at, working at, working at out there. Let's work this out out there. Uh, yeah. We all know how I feel about IJs, but Jesus Christ. Yeah. Um, well, if it proves, if it proves not to be genetic, um, and I would say that putting the two of them together would definitely be a step toward selectively breeding for a really dark IJs. Yeah. I'm going to be agreed. You know, the approach that I took was, uh, I bred an animal that was as bright as I could, that I have as far as IJs go. I bred a GQ, um, IJ to poison ivy because I didn't want to money up the waters with the first time that I bred. You know what I mean? Because if you bred a darker animal, then is it selective breeding or is it genetic? You know, with this route, at least you're kind of locked in to say, okay, well, it's not selective breeding. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, I just thought it was the better way to go. Yeah. Something thought that black, you know, would be genetic. So yeah. Yes. I found the pictures, uh, I'll upload them to that message group, um, like two seconds, but, um, okay, to keep going so we don't just stop and wait for me. Yeah. For the other IJ projects that I have, like I said, I plan on breeding, um, that male back to his daughter, um, and seeing if there's anything there, um, and if not, hopefully the babies will still be stunning and pretty, and even pretty, you're, uh, I have a normal female that I plan on breeding a high percentage IJ JAG to and making some, uh, IJ JAGs. I also, I also have a, a Zantic IJ that I got from, uh, Nick through Paul Harris and I will be breeding him to my granite female this fall or winter and hopefully I'll get something. She's a virgin female and get some double heads to start working towards that marble project, but we'll see he is, he is small. He's only eating, uh, hundred gram rats right now, um, but if, but if there's a will, there's a way, right? Daddy, small boys can get it done, so, um, all right, I will also be pairing him to a normal, um, IJ female, um, to make some pure hetis antics, um, and if that goes well and I get some, um, and we'll go from there of course, but I don't know if I would sell those or not. I'm just in love with the Azantic IJs, I think I'm going to hoard them all, but we'll see. No, I don't want to count my chickens before they hatch. I'm with you. Smart move, darling. Yeah. Um, what about your, uh, is that all you got going on, uh, with IJs, what about your breadlock? Uh, breadlock, I plan on doing a repeat pairing, um, my genetic stripes, hopefully I'll have better luck with those. And, uh, my normals, I also plan on adding some, uh, genetic mutations, uh, to the breadlight bunch. Uh, nice. So, hopefully, yeah, go ahead. So, you were one of those people that was really, really psyched out when, uh, Nick had that article on the stone water. Yes and no, because I've been following it. So I, you know, exactly, we were, I already knew, yeah, exactly. Um, people who, who have breadlight, I mean, if you have them, you enjoy them. That being that you've kept up with what's going on with them, um, it's hard to keep them and not enjoy them. That being said, um, yeah, I've been, I've been involved talking to Nick and, you know, he's pretty much, I mean, Nick knows for one, but pretty much knowing that it was recessive for quite a while this season was just a season to, uh, put the last nail on the coffin for that, I guess. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I think, I think it's a cool gene. I remember the first time I saw them, he was talking about how he got them from the guy who produced them or something like that. And, you know, his first post about how he got them and I was just like, oh man, I'm so stoked. Like, let's do this, breadlight are already awesome, but looking at those pictures, they're just, they're stunning and, and the hypo's and, and putting all three genes together is going to be the next project for, I think, everybody, but even one of the genes with the other, I mean, it will be a stepping stone and just, just so cool. Yeah, he, he, he makes his ruining name because he's like, oh, and you don't have any more breadlight. I'm like, I don't because I can fix that and then I have to hang up on him, like, really quick. I like to end up spending money, so, um, I, I will, I will, like you said, I've been keeping my eye on these things as well, so, we'll see how that goes. Yeah. So, yeah, plan on adding stone wash and hypo to the group and we'll see what happens there. Nice. Very nice. Hopefully, I won't get too male. No. God, no. Cool. So, what do you think, I'm curious in your thoughts on, um, as far as, uh, what do you think is going to be the hot carpet this upcoming season? I think it would have to be the stone wash, um, because one there, there's so few more sweat with bread lie, um, you know, hypo, last year was the first year that they were available in the US, right, unless you were on the down low and had a bunch of money to throw at Nick, but I don't think he sold them before last year. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think any visual stone washes are leaving things all at, or unless you're on the down low and, uh, so yeah, I, I can either confirm or deny, I don't know what he's telling, uh, all, all three people on this phone can neither confirm nor deny. All right. So, exactly, but, um, I think stone wash because one, it's, it's the first time that it's been available, you know, um, apparently, um, there's only been a couple of stone wash animals ever sold and even of the ones that were sold, um, apparently quite a few died because of, uh, poor keeping, you know, and poor feeding, um, and in the US, I think it's, you know, Casey Cannon that has one adult female and Nick and nobody else unless somebody, uh, uh, yeah, doesn't Brian bar check have a few unless he kept them. The story I heard was he produced them and didn't know what animals he put together because he had multiple adults, uh, he had put together and wasn't able to reproduce more and got tired and sold them. That's the story I heard. So don't quote me if he does still have them. I know he did produce them some, um, but I don't believe he has some still unless he's just keeping them as pets or working with them and maybe going to make some jags, don't wash. Yeah, everybody who keeps the bread lie, that's their fear, excuse me, is, uh, crossing anything with bread lies, our fear, yeah, that was, it was, uh, what was it? I was at a tin leak and I picked up this ocelot and it's like, okay, that's an ocelot, bread lies, drop it, it's like, it's, it's, nope, it's, nope, that, uh, you know, the, I think Bob produced that one. You may have, I can't say whether you did that or not, but you have to admit though, you have to admit that the screen jag is pretty friggin awesome jag that I mean, that's Casper's mutt thing in it, the screen, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they got lucky with that one. I'm somebody who could appreciate a pretty snake, but at the same time being a purist, I'm appreciating this pretty snake, but in the back of my head running around is, where's all its siblings that aren't jag, who are they being sold to, what the hell would I believe this to if I got it, yeah, no, but, no, but I guess, I guess if I'm playing devil's advocate though, what is the difference between a bread lie, sib, and a I.J. sib, absolutely nothing like what, yeah, I mean, to me, I think you could tackle the, uh, except the separate species thing, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think, I'm just saying like, what's the difference though, I mean, like, I could see, like, if you're somebody like Nick, okay, he doesn't, he doesn't cross because he doesn't believe in that, right, and you know, it's very like me who appreciate both sides of the fence, and I say, you know, I really like cool snakes, I would cross this, I would cross that, cross the wild, however I feel that I justify for myself, in my mind, whether it's right or wrong, it's like, okay, this is okay to do, but this is not okay to do, but the more and more that I think about it from a, from a realistic point of view, it just seems silly that I would say that it's okay to cross this and not okay to cross that, so I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter to me what's crossed, I think the only way that you avoid buying those animals that are a quote unquote fit is buy from a reputable breeder, that's it, that's it, I mean, that's what we want them to do anyway, we want them to go to a reputable breeder, whether it's me, whether it's Owen, whether it's Steve who cares, it doesn't make a difference, but if you know, and they can show you parents and lineage and all that stuff, then it is what it is, otherwise it's an undocumented nor, and then look at jungles, for instance, I mean, you see all these crazy looking jungles, they're not going to tell me that somewhere down the line for the people that have undocumented jungles, and they're screaming yellow, don't have diamond blood floating around in there, you just, I just can't believe it, I'm sorry at all, you know, and I'm not saying I'm against it, I'm just saying that it's just, I don't know, these funny lines that we all throw on the sand to see, like, when I cross this, and I cross that. My standpoint, like I said earlier, is just being responsible and marketing it as it is, always assume that you can't sell it, I guess that would be you being honest if you lie and say it's a carpet python, you can sell it to anybody, right, but being responsible or saying what it is, right, right, if you're able to do that, I mean, I guess it doesn't matter what you cross, that's the truth, in my opinion, right, you know, it's just funny how we have all these lines that we say, no, we can't do that, but this we can do, it's funny, if we say it enough, it'll become true, and then it'll be back, nobody will question it, and we won't have bread lice, or jags, or jags, it's perfect, just keep telling that, yeah, do you plan on, do you plan on adding anything to your group this year? That would be the bread lice stuff, okay, stonewash and hypo, yeah, hypo's a nice man, yeah, they're stunning, they, yeah, can't go wrong with those, have you seen them in person? No, never, they're glorious in person, I don't have any, but I've spared Eric's, so, yeah, they're, I mean, not too many people do have them, right, and I don't know, unless somebody's on the super down low, I don't know, unless Todd has them, I don't think anybody in California has them, California is a big state, and like I said, that's if somebody's not telling me, not too many people don't, I don't think psychotic has those, I know, yeah, and then, and then I plan on getting one of those out cross the IJ Granits from Nick likely to add one Granit and new blood to my IJ projects. Very cool, that's been a long project we've been making. Yeah, and if anybody has one, anybody listening, I would be interested in a Granit Jag female, but I haven't found one, so Ken exactly had that. Yeah, I do like Granit Jag's tried so hard to make them several years, but anyway, stupid I just, so you were just at the NIRBC and Anaheim. Can you tell us how that show was? For me, that show went amazing. Obviously, everybody could ask to sell everything and then it would be perfect, but no, I sold enough to pay for my booth and some, and I had a great time, but it's a smaller show, we do have a bigger show here in California that I have yet to thank. So in terms of that, for other people, it was small, for me personally, it was great. It's kind of funny thinking about, I think, I thought it was great and I was thinking going into it. I mean, if I don't sell anything, it'll be cool, but the bummer part of it would be, I don't get to walk around and look at other people's reptiles, because that's what I want to do. But I was able to do that before the show on both days and the night that Friday night got to look around. It was a great experience for me. I mean, one of the things that I like about not only the industry, I guess, but more earlier, community is how positive some people could be. I had questions about what type of betting people use to display their snakes and I sent Todd a message, Todd Dyer, and he was more than happy to help me and told me what he uses and why and just very helpful. It was pretty cool. He walked around a few times and he stopped by my booth and talked to me and complimented my snakes. It's pretty cool hearing that because I think hearing the U.S. in terms of really big, it's psychotic exotics and Nick. To hear Todd say, "Yo, that jungle is badass or that looks good or your booth looks good." It was pretty rewarding. A lot of other vendors who wanted to buy my adults aren't for sale. These are the babies, though. By these, no, I want those because you already get all the work. It was just a good show. It was fun for me, very rewarding and enjoyable. I got my name out there. There was some people who didn't know about me or there was people who didn't know much about carpet pythons. It was cool to see the different color mutations and more stuff like that. Cool. We did notice you had a bunch of really big cages on your table. That's where showing off your adults. Did you think it helped you tell the babies or hindered it a little bit? I think it helps. Me personally, when I buy a carpet python, whether it be from Nick or Todd or from one of you guys or even like a neighbor or something, I want to see the adults. I want to know background. I want to know me. I know how big it gets, but some other people don't know how big it gets. When you can point and say, "This is its older sibling. This is its mom. This is its dad. Cousin, ant, whatever." It breaks it down and people could see that and say, "Wow, this has a lot of potential." They really do go through a dramatic color change. That size reference, "Oh, how's their temperament as an adult?" They see this beautiful jungle that's cocked back, ready to strike. I use a hook and I pull it out and it's puppy dog tame and they're like, "Oh, wow." They're cool. I think it's very helpful to take adults to have them on display. It did draw on people. I had some friends help me out and my brother and my girlfriend. They're out there in front of my booth holding an adult and people are just coming in asking questions. Like I said, it really does help. Okay, pretty cool. I would agree to that having the adults, I've always felt this helps draw people in a little bit more. What would you recommend to somebody who wants to make a setup to start bending at reptile shows? What do you feel is important? Don't do it. There's enough competition with Todd Dyer there. No, they're struggling. No, it's very rewarding. It's fun. Like I said, my biggest fear when I was thinking, "Man, what if I don't sell anything that was really because I'm not going to get to walk around and see all these other reptiles?" That's what's most exciting, right? It's so rewarding. For me, it helped me get my name out there a little bit more, helped me network, and just being able to talk with people who want to interruptiles or to specifically more area, it's very, very cool. You get to talk to them versus going to a family gathering or a friend gathering, "Oh, what's new?" Well, I plan on breeding my jag to my vist and my that, and they're like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "Oh, well, you don't know that." You're the wrong person. It's rewarding. I'd say take the jump and bend. The worst that could happen is you don't sell anything, right? Or you come home with mites. But see, that's the worst thing. I guess that's the worst thing. It's far from the worst thing. That is horrible. I just treat my stuff when bringing them back in and treat their cages in them. Just to be safe, you wouldn't believe how many people were surprised when I said, "Hand sanitizer, please," and they're like, "Why am I going to give your snake something?" It's like knowing that how Joe Smo's snake that had mites and you just came over here to hold mine too. It'll help. It'll help. It's not 100%, but I'm trying to, anything's better than nothing. Yep. No, thank you. No mites, please, Jesus. What do you think about the current state of carbon pythons in the reptile hobby? Do you see them increasing in popularity? Do you see that as being a good thing or a bad thing? More attention could go either way. You could look at it and say, just throwing out numbers, 100, 10,000 people want to get into carpets now and you're like, "Okay, well that means everybody's going to be able to sell all their babies." But 10,000 new people, maybe they do know something about carpets or don't, is going to make some guys who maybe are really into carpets say, "No, I'm going to get out." If they want to get out thinking the market's going to crash, they generally crash the market because they want to sell everything low to get their money, to get as much as they can. They crash the market for everybody else who's staying in. That could go either way. A lot of new people coming in could make sales go up. A lot of people seeing that trying to get out could crash the market and then the people staying in, the market just goes lower because people coming in who buy low think everything else should sell low. I think that's with anything. It could go either way the attention. What I've seen, there's, I don't know, that's hit or miss. I've heard a few people this week saying that carpets are becoming too mainstream so they're going to steer away. It's like, "Look at ball pythons. How many times does that market?" Or just one gene crashed and look at the other things. I mean, pied for example has retained its value pretty well for a gene that's been around a long time. So that's with anything. I mean, market could hit or miss. If it gets to a point where it's that bad and I can't sell anything, I will still likely breed at least one flutch of something because I enjoy breeding. Right. Which makes sense. I mean, some pretty sure the same boat everybody else is that matters. He's in the same boat as that. If I can only sell one clutch a year, so I only breed one clutch a year. Hooray. I'll keep breeding until I'm dead. That's the way to do it. That is the exact way to do it. Oh, yeah. I'm going to be that 90 year old guy that makes sure it's a McCain going by the car, pied on it. Yeah. Great. Can't wait. You'll be vending in your wheelchair using the handicap exits and entrances? Yeah. I'll have them, you know, get the successor or the helper or one of the grandkids wheel me in and out. It's all good. Yeah. Perfect. That's how you keep the hobby. Get the kids. Yeah, right. That's right. Well, I have, do you have any thoughts on as far as that? Get new people into carpets? That one's a tough one because being realistic, you know, when I had got my pair of breadlight, although I was a kid, I wasn't afraid of getting bit, you know. When I first started working with snakes, my cousin had me put my hand in with a king snake and he said, "It's going to bite you and we let it bite me." And so, that's not that bad. So, I got over that fear, but somebody knew if somebody came up to my booth and they were just walking by or I flagged them and they said, "They don't have anything, but they're interested in a snake." Truthfully me, me being a good person, it's hard to try and push them on a carpet if there's a chance that they're going to get bit and just steer away and say carpets are bad, you know, it would be easier to say, "Get a ball python, a corn snake, then move up to a carpet." So, on that aspect, I offer somebody new, but what I do say, and I stand by this, is, "My baby carpets, I don't have a chance to handle them every day, nor do I care to." I notice by the time that they're eating small rats, whether that be in one year because I'm feeding them heavy or in two to three years because, you know, I'm taking my time. By the time they're on small rats, I could reach in there and pick them up without getting bit, and I think it's just a fear issue and everything's a predator issue when they're a baby. So, I tell that to people. So, anybody knew whether they have one ball python, one corn snake, or they're willing to get something and they're okay with getting bit. I just point blank, say that there's, you're going to get bit eventually, but that's likely from any snake or any animal. I think carpets are worth it because you see that color change ball pythons loose color. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Not the certain ones, no, that's why you said the guy who sold it to you, right? Yeah, well, you know, well, this is a bit off topic, but when I was down there at Southern Carpetfest, you know, Bill is very strategic and I don't know if you did this on purpose or not, but the ball pythons that he works with actually getting better into adulthood. You know, and I think seeing them is a lot different than seeing them online. You know, I only ever see babies online. You know, I never, rarely, maybe I'm not looking in the right spot. I don't know. Maybe I don't really, I'm not tracking it down hard enough. You're going to post pictures of a show horse, not a mule. Yeah, that's true. You know, when people take pictures, you know, when they're taking pictures and they're dirty tubs and all this other stuff, I don't know if they follow that idea. The worst thing possible is when you, you pull open a tub and a snake is sitting just right on Cleaning Day and has a perfect color and it's right next to a fat turd and it's like, man, I can't post this picture because people will think, oh, he doesn't clean his stuff. Like, no, it just happens to be Cleaning Day or whatever and it looked good and I wanted to post a picture but I can't or won't, whatever you want to choose. Yeah. So let's, well, I got two questions. Let's go with the easier one first. What is your feel on the morphs and the designer carpets? I mean, I think we've kind of hit on this but do you think that the morphs are bringing new people into carpet place ons or you find that, I guess, the way that ball pythons have fallen, that they sort of steer away from that kind of stuff? Well, from my point of view, I think morphs are absolutely awesome. I'm able to, I mean, from what I see online, a lot of people like to consider IJ's the lower end carpet python. Like, oh, it's just an IJ. And that being said, if you want to look at it like that, that's a low end snake, those naturally, you know, a wild type could be just so stunning and I enjoy that but I even more so enjoy, I guess, all the morphs that they have available within the subspecies and keeping them pure. Yes, you could make, you know, some really cool stuff when you cross the subspecies together in terms of morphs and they're really stunning, but I think it's so cool seeing, you know, a three in one snake, say, an asantic caramel jag and it's all coastal and it's pure and it's a powerhouse animal. In terms of attention, bringing in new people, there is somebody that I speak to. He's a retired gentleman and, you know, when he saw some of my zebra jungles, he's like, well, that pattern's like wicked and I'm like, yeah, that's a genetic mutation. He's like, so there's morphs in carpet pythons like there is with ball pythons and I'm like, yeah, like a ton of them. Like, I have a few. There's people who are going all out and, you know, I work with quite a few snakes but he was just so shocked to see all these morphs and stuff and he, it kind of sparked interest in him so, and he's in the hobby. So there's still a lot of people who don't know and I think morphs could bring some good attention but like I said, me being a purist at heart when I see that stunning animal that's across and it's got that jag in it or something, I'm thinking, where's it sibling which may turn some people down. Right. Absolutely. Okay. So what is it that you'd like to say about the carpet community, what would be the pros and the cons of the Moralia hits? I would say the pros would be, you know, how closely knit we could be. I mean, I don't know about other species of, you know, reptiles but, you know, like the carpets fest. I mean, how cool is that? We like it. Exactly. Yeah. That's cool, right? Anybody else would be like lame. And it's just cool, you know, it's just a bunch of people getting together who are talking carpets, showing off carpets and just hanging out. And it's pretty cool. And like I said, I mentioned earlier, people being, you know, pleasant and complimenting saying my booth, you know, Todd, like I said, you know, he's somebody who's big in the industry and he's over here at my booth saying, you know, nice set up or, you know, nice snake. And then me posting pictures and Justin Julander saying, you know, nice, nice booth and, you know, that's all the positive stuff. And it's really great when you post a picture and somebody comments on that, you know, and says, wow, that looks great. And then they, they went up you and say, but look at this. And then you're like, wow, that looks great. Or whatever it may be. And, you know, of course, all the compliments are always going to be the pros are going to be great. I would say the con would be, per se, like, in relating to me personally, that way I don't offend anyone. I have a pair of unrelated zebras that I got both of them from Nick. So whether, and he doesn't call them Nick's bloodline, you know, mud and bloodline. And I, I kind of, you to shorten it up. And I have their lineage. And, and so when I, you know, when I put them together this winter, if all goes wrong, I have babies next year. And I try and market them at the same price as Nick. Some people are going to say, well, you can't do that. And in my head, I'm thinking it would be an insult and a slap in the face to Nick. All this work that he's put in, you know, selectively breeding, getting all these different animals, all these different lines, putting them together, selling me some babies that turn out stunning and me producing some and me selling them for, you know, some zebras. Let's say the market next year for zebras is $500. And I'm selling them for half of that because, you know, I'm not Nick. Like, what a slap in the face. I'm able to prove that they're pure. They're, they're from him and he, maybe he even comments and says, yeah, I'll vouch for Stephen Katz. They're, they're from me and, and they look great. And he's selling, I'm selling them for half. And I think the negative part would be people have that mentality. Well, you can't, you can't sell them at that price. It's like, why, why are we going to crash our own market? I mean, a pretty, a pretty snake is a pretty snake. I mean, sell it for what it's worth or what it looks like. I think the negativity, like I said, would be some people. Oh, I'm that, or, or maybe even them thinking I'm not as big as them. So I can't sell it that big. It's like, sell it. I mean, the worst that will happen is they don't sell and you have them. For me, that's perfectly okay. I enjoy this hobby enough to keep all my babies. I'm, I'm holding back. I'm looking at my hatchling rack. My, my jungle clutch was a 10.3 clutch. I'm holding back one female and, and like three males because all the males I think look too cool to sell. I don't want to sell them for no amount of price. And I took one to the show. It's, it's just a zebra with a stripe. I put it for $1,200 because I didn't want to sell it. And people are like, why is it that much? Like, because I don't want to sell it. I don't know what I would have done. If somebody said, well, here's 15, I'll take it. It would have, it would have sold it. You would have sold it. I've done the net, the Georgian. Bye. I'll make another one of you next year, some of a bitch. But yeah, so that would be the negativity is either kind of beating yourself up and saying, I can't sell it for that much or maybe somebody else saying, you know, why should I buy from you when I could go to Nick or Todd or Eric or Bill or Owen or whoever for some of these, some of these snakes. And it's just like, well, that's the market. If you don't want to buy from me, don't buy from me. I have all the paperwork, lineage, information, you know, and here's the adults. Yeah. I'm kind of with you. Like, I don't know. I find that like the thing that I hate most about dealing with like designer morphs is the pricing part of it. You know, it's like, you don't want to price too low, you don't want to price too high, you don't want to price undercut anybody, you know. And it seems to me that I've seen that over this past year, the one thing that I would say is negative part of it is just the fact that there was a lot of undercutting that I saw with people. And I mean, people know from my little ransom on the show is that I think that I don't care if they're 300 bucks because the price doesn't matter to me. You know, to me, that sort of, eventually it's going to come down to a price that helps people get into it, you know. I think that's just the way that the market kind of works. If you have, look, I think a perfect example of that would be rough scales, you know. You look at rough scale price on it, where X amount, you know, I think a couple of years ago there were five grand a pair. You know, they were like two grand a pair. You know, right here they'll drop a little bit. You know, I think my only problem though is that I think that there should be a bottle. There should be a bottle where it bottoms out. This is the price that we will not go below, you know. And I'm not talking about, you know, you're behind the scenes deals and your friend deals and all that kind of stuff. I'm talking about like when you're at a show, you're posting something up online, you know, if you say a normal JAG car fit python is, I don't know, 250 bucks. And that's kind of like the realm that people should not go below. You know, I don't know. It just seems to me that why are you going to make a 50 bucks? You know, I don't know. And then it should go up from there. Okay. So if you produce a really nice IJ JAG or jungle JAG with a black stripe down its back or the yellow is really killer or whatever, then, you know, if a normal one is 250, then you should be able to get 500 bucks. Hell, maybe even get 800 for it. You know. I think another example of that would be John Pataglia from, you know, Moralia Trophy Club. I mean, his animals are dancing lines that he's producing animals that are going to be killer and they're going to have awesome yellow and, you know, they're 900 bucks if you want one. That's the price. Yeah. I don't understand why, you know, so-and-so selling his JAG for, you know, 200 bucks. Well, look at the difference in what they're going to look like as adults, you know, I mean, yeah, I don't know. Well, you add on to that. The other thing to kind of get to me is when you have the babies and then a couple of months go by and you cut prices. It's like, oh, it's turning a year now. It's still here. I should cut prices. My prices go up after a year because now I've done a year for the working of that animal. Yeah. So you want it. Thank you. You're paying a little bit more. Also, male, it's almost breathing age. If you push him, so, yeah, you know, that's one thing. People watch me and say they're waiting for my prices to go down. Well, they don't understand it. The prices tend to go up. So, yeah, I think we often crash on or think, well, the big guys have them for this and I don't want to sit on them. So I'll sell them for this. And it's like, well, they only have so many. It's not a product you could exactly make. Yeah. And that being said, if all these big guys, all you guys sell out, and Stephen Katz is the only one with IJ's left for the 2015 season, then I guess I have to buy from Stephen Katz because everybody else sold out, right? Right. It's like, just wait it out. Then at that point, you could likely spike your price if you're, I guess, into that thing. I just want to sell my animals and see pictures of them growing up. That's all that matters to me. Yeah. That's all we want. Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, definitely don't cut the second year because you didn't sell them. Just start posting more ads. Well, I think that's the other thing. Like, I think you've got to post up that you've got to post so people know who you are and take a good picture for God's sake. Try a little harder, God damn it. If you don't have a special light tent or anything like that, take your animal out back and out back your cat or in your yard or whatever and use the sun. Yeah. I mean, leave it in the tub, whatever, but make sure the tub is clean and make sure that people are going to get a good representation on the animal. Like, I see some pictures and I'm just like, "Good Lord, come on." We're better than that. Yep. Let's see. Do you, I think my other thing was, I think I read that you have a little bit of a background in business. What are some of your thoughts on people's approach to breeding snakes as it is? Can you balance the passion and the business? I think this is probably the other big part that I've seen over this past year with Carcafythons in particular is that because morphs were, you know, involved and money was involved and high dollars were involved, a lot of people got upset because of the way things were handled and pricing and etc, etc. You know, what's your thoughts on how people approach this as a business? Well, he's going to school for business and stuff and thinking about it and, you know, everybody who loves them would love to, "Well, let's just make it a business and then I could do what I love," right? And make money from what I love. However, it's not as easy as it sounds, I would say, from my experience. And as far as balancing the passion and the business, if let's say you're trying to make it, you know, a business and very big, I think the animals would still get good care. For example, if I lost complete interest and I'm now just an investor, I just want to invest, I want to buy this $10,000 new morph carpet python and put it with its head sibling that I got for $5,000. I have 15 grand tied up and people comment all the time, you're feeding it too much, you only care about the money, you just want to pump it out and all this stuff. Even if I only cared about getting back my investment and making some, I have, as a business man, $15,000 tied up in those two animals. I do not want to feed them so much that I kill them. I don't want to let them get so cold that I kill them. We're so hot. So you could balance it. I think the animals would still get the proper care and everything even if you went full Nazi and just became a business investor. But to do it, I mean, it's fun and tough. I don't know. To make a living off of only your reptiles, I think it's tough and kudos to the people that have done it because it can be enjoyable. But on top of all that joy is a lot of stress. I'm sure the people who are doing it, owning their own reptile stores or online base or whatever it may be. I mean, how many, for all the animals you sell, how many people f up and kill them and are contacting you again and saying it's your fault and all kinds of stuff. I mean, you got to look at the bad with the good, right? Well, I sure come to the territory. Yeah. So I think you could do it. I think in the end, regardless of what aspect you look at it, the animals would still get the good care because, like I said, nobody wants to kill their investment, right? Right. Yeah, you don't really want to do that. You don't make any money back that way. Exactly. So because people say it all the time online, oh, you're feeding them too much or this or that, you're keeping them wrong or you don't care about them or it's like relax. Don't worry about your animals and hope that everybody's taking care of their own animals. I mean, at the end of the day, if somebody's not unless you know where they live, I mean, there's nothing you can really do. PETA only cares about furry animals, right? Not snakes. Right. Yeah. That is true. Yeah. I think that's the way I have questions. Yeah, yeah. The last thing that I have before we do the, hold on a second, before we do the closing, sorry, before we do the closing questions, I noticed that you name your snakes and I find that when people do that, it's sort of, I think people can relate to them better, if that makes sense. Do you see that? Is that a part of the reason why you do that? And how do you go about them? Everybody kind of has a story of what they've seen, their names around, their names around. What's your story? I was very anti-naming snakes. They can't hear. So, the name of snake is quite pointless. However, the reason what made me dive into naming my animals was ongoing to be breeding them and I can't just say, to somebody who knows, maybe I sell a zebra to one of you guys and I say, yeah, it's from my zebra male to my normal jungle female with the more black. Okay, you guys know what I'm talking about. I only have one zebra male and you look at the two female jungles or one of the three female jungles that I have and you see, okay, the one with more black, okay, that's the mom. But to somebody else, to say zebra, they're already lost. I guess if they're not truly into it. So, to name them, it's kind of easier to say, oh, this is from Betsy to my Dylan Francis male and they say, okay, let me look at his website. Okay, there's Betsy. Okay, that's mom. Okay, that's Dylan Francis. Okay, oh, and these are his future pairings and it's easier to keep track of things, in my opinion. Right. And then once I decided to name them, I kind of, I guess I kind of went off of a little bit of personality. I try to do color mostly, but some attitude gets pulled in there and some names are on impulse. This 2013 female IJ that I produced, I think it was earlier this year. Maybe it was the last year, she was, I put her on the grass and she twisted herself up like a pretzel and she happened to look like that hazel nut color like a pretzel when it's nice and done. And I said, I'm gonna name you pretzel, boom. I'm done. Yeah, I try not to lose sleep over naming my snakes, that's for sure. I find that when you're the one that names it, it's, I don't know, for me, it's like I go to name it and I'm like, oh man, that kind of sounds silly. And then I think about Madame Blueberry. You know, that said one and it's been, God help the world if I ever establish a line because I will find the dumbest name to call my snake just so you all have to repeat it. You know, I can't see how and if I, if I, if I call my, if I said, you said, oh, look at it, that's a cool snake. I'm like, oh yeah, that's Madame Blueberry. You would be like, what the hell the hell is the matter with you? I was like, I will actually change one of my snakes name if I start establishing a line with it. You know, that's super duper snake number 12 and just throw it out there. Now everyone has to say it. I mean, it's like the hippopotamus if I ever created more from just going to call it a hippo, just because now everybody doesn't know what to do with it. So yeah, I think naming snakes is definitely important. And what I found is that people may not remember what the parents will look like, but they'll remember the names. So people will come, people will come back to me and they say, I bought it from this guy. I'm like, oh yeah, I remember that guy. Yeah. He said it's from a Trinity talent. I'm like, he is correct. And here's Trinity, here's talent. There you go. So that's, I felt that's one of the best things to do is to name it. And these are your snakes you mean, whatever the hell you want. You know, I went to college with a bunch of people who were in there for equine science and stuff with that. So I kind of adopted the horse way of naming things. It's, you know, they pick a category for the year and then that's it. Anything that any babies that are born that year all come under the one category. I think one year in college they did alcohols. So the horses were named like Kalua and Jaeger and everything else had popped out for the whole season. So I haven't done that. But it makes it easier for me. So yeah, there's it again 10 million different ways to skin the cat and, you know, it'd be funny if, you know, pretzel started out a line and we all have to call it the pretzel line. I find that hilarious. So yeah, it would either be that or based off who her dad is Black cats. That even better. So yeah, I love it. But so we had the closing questions now and these are the interesting questions that make you think. Because if you could have any type of Morelia, what would it be? Bolinai. Bolinai. Definitely working on that. At least they've been they were removed from Morelia though. Recently? Are we recognizing that paper? No. When was that? Yeah. Oh, you don't know? Oh, no. I'm behind that. There's some more. Yeah. Oh, Jesus. Basically, there was... Morelia really should be a should have should be split up into it's just like it's anything with a prehensile tail. It just sort of got lumped into Morelia. Yeah. Really, Bolin's pythons are basically scrub pythons. They are now in Simlia. And I think are in there. Wow. Hundreds and rough scales. They're really not that closely related to carpets as well. So my thoughts are really that they used to be Condro Phythons bearded. Probably more than likely at some point, I would think they'll probably be moved out. And I think that rough scales will be moved out. And then you have Morelia would be basically the carpet pythons. And then you have two sister species, which would be Morelia Redlai and Morelia and Percata. But they just kind of lump them all together at one point and, you know, so kind of how it goes. Wow. Wow. Well, the next question is what non-Marelia would you want to work with? So let's just say Bolinai is the non-Marelia. What's your Morelia? Imprecata. There we go. Perfect. You heard it. And we're the only two that want Imprecata. He's going to hate me because there's going to be that moment. I know it's going to be years from now. We just look at Imprecata. I'm like, and he's just going to smack me. I mean, like, it's going to be like, oh, for cool. So yeah, yeah, yeah, all the wind out of the sail. All right. If you could go harping anywhere in the world without limitations or legality, where would it be and what would you be hoping to see? Alice Springs, Australia. And what would you be hoping to see? Unless it's changed? Breadlai. Oh, yeah, that's like I said, that's been since I was a little. It's always, I mean, anybody who asks the family vacation, Alice Springs, Australia. For them, their point of view, because it's pretty. For me, of course, the Breadlai. There's no option. If we're going to Australia, we're going to Alice Springs unless it's changed. Nice. They should be there. So cool. So now, how can somebody get in touch with you? Get some information, talk to you about the babies, make some sales. How would they do that? My Facebook page, Instagram page. I post fauna classified ads, but yeah, my Facebook page is Steven Katz. The page to like, I guess the business page would be SBK reptiles. You could send me a message or comment on anything on there. Facebook says that I get back to people pretty fast, but not fast enough or something like that. It's within two hours, apparently. Oh, those are terrible numbers. Yeah, the numbers that Facebook says is two hours that I get back to people, and that I should be within five minutes. What? I'm within 45 minutes. My website, spkreptiles.com, emails, spk94@hotmail.com. Cool. Any of those work? Cool. So yeah, if you want to just link up with Steve and try to figure out if you can buy one of his babies or try to get on him a list or something, that's the way to do it. Yeah. Very cool. Well, thanks for coming on and thanks for chatting up with us and having a carpet python episode. We do have to get back to the Morellia part of the show every once in a while or if people get mad. Yeah. Well, thank you guys for having me. It was fun. It's pretty cool. Absolutely. Well, they come back on to you and Eric can work out the reading exchange of your very, very dark I.J. Yeah, definitely. Nice. Steve, thank you. You have a good night, all right? All right. You too. Thank you guys. All right. All right. All right. Let's close this out. Get on the road. Let's see. You mean go upstairs or a bed? Yeah, yeah. All right. We're really placed on radio. Next week we have Justin Joolander joining us from Australian Addiction. He also has his own podcast called Herpetological Discussions. And as you all know, he was co-author of the book The Complete Carpet. And we're going to be talking about Morellia and Percata. So, Justin has been out in that area. He's hurt in that area. He's actually seen Percata in the wild. So, look forward to talking about. Obviously, his show will be based around the natural history and, you know, his experiences in the wild with those snakes. So, should be a cool episode. Definitely. I've been looking for a guest for Inbracata Forever and I figured who better than the guy that wrote the book, you know, about them. And I've seen some of his YouTube videos. And he's done some pretty cool videos of just Western Australia, which he's been to quite a few times. So, you can look it up on YouTube. And I guess it's under Australian Addiction reptiles. And you can see some of the stuff that he's done. For us, you can check out the website, MorelliaPiteOnRadio.com. If you have any questions or comments, you can send them to info@morelliaPiteOnRadio.com. Like our Facebook page, follow us on Twitter @morelliaPiteOn. You can listen to past episodes on iTunes. Make sure you go over and subscribe or whatever your favorite podcast app is. And you can look to all past 215 episodes. That's a lot of time. Gee. It took you a while to get caught up. But there you go. You've been using it for years of material. So, yeah, right. We have Carpissess in the works. I believe it's next weekend is Northwest Carpissess on October 3rd since Seattle, Washington. Amy is looking, I think she has over on their Northwest Carpissess Facebook site. They have the list for the auctions that's going for U.S. Arc. U.S. Arc is going to love the Carpiss community because we have a booster going. They have a fundraiser going. North did a raise some funds for them. So, that's a good thing. So, yeah, October 3rd, if you're in that area, you should definitely go and hang out. I know you're going to be around the likes of guys like Nick Button. And I think Casey Laysock is going to be there as well. I sure would love to be here with that guy. Well, we'll fly you out. We'll keep doing that. We'll send you to Carpissess. Southeast Carpissess is maybe about a month after that. It's on Saturday, November 7th. And that is in Estuis, Florida. So, I'm like 90% sure that I'm going to that. I think Bill's trying to work out to where he's going to come along with me. So, that should be cool. They have a bill in my stead. Bill is now acting as Owen. I mean, Joe's, okay? There you go. Well, we're going to blend the two shows together. We got to get some Condro love and we got to get some Carpissess love. So, you know, everybody and I are going to represent him for both. The youth guy's guard to Ford told it down. This is stupid. Those guys have a booster going on. The shirts are now on sale. That's the pool of the future. Yeah. Yeah, I ordered one. I think it was Jess Farmer who did the logo design. And same thing with us. If they have any international people who are interested, you can contact them and they will get it out to them with the extra shipping cost. So, I would say probably KJ is probably the guy you want to get in touch with. But it's definitely cool. I mean, you know, that's the other cool, awesome thing. Now, you have something to wear to reptile shows, you know, like a concert. Yeah. I mean, it's funny to mention that. I went to the Baltimore Repicon and I went over to Jason Bailin Stable. And Jason was wearing the first ever Carpissess t-shirt. And then he had a helper who was wearing the Brettles, Marley Python. I'm sort of bowling some Marley Python radio t-shirt. And I was wearing my Marley Python radio t-shirt and I'm like, well, this makes me feel pretty good. I'm like, oh, we're missing a few. But this is cool. I like that I can walk in here and there's three different designs and stuff. And I like it. So, Kondro shirt, that's what we need. That'll be the next one. That's just because Buddy said we need a Kondro shirt. So then we need a Kondro shirt. That we do. But yes, we need a Kondro shirt. So, I've only knew a guy who was really good at graphic design. It's only we did. It's only we knew that guy. Yeah. And I think I want to say that I went and changed took care of his snakes today. I don't know. But that really, who would you know, there's a graphic design thing? You'd have to go take care of his snakes. That means you must be relatively close to you. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Maybe we'll handle it in the second landmark. Yeah. We'll give him some free promotion on the show. And that'll be it. I'll find the drink in Timley. Yeah. Well, hang with us at Timley. So, there you go. U S R K, please support them. You can go make a donation. You can subscribe to updates that they may have. U S R dot U S R dot org. You can follow them also on Facebook and Twitter at U S R. You got to you got to show them support. Especially now, it's kind of like I said, it's kind of quieted down. Now it's time where we should be, you know, building up the defense fund and, you know, things have not stopped. Yeah. When you did replenish the war chest. Yeah. Kind of quiet at the moment. Yeah. Let's see. What else do we have? So, we have a booster going on too for U S R K. It's the Maralea Python radio standard design. You know, we're just trying to put it out there to get some funds raised for those. I'll proceed to go in the U S R K. So, make sure that we're going to we're probably we're going to retire this t-shirt after this one. So, because the next one we're going to do with the Maralea Python logo. Maybe we'll do a different color or a different as a logo kind of touched a little bit. So, this is the last time to get this t-shirt. So, no, it's going to be a classic. You're damn right, it will be. And if you come up to me after the booster's closed and all thought help you. So, uh huh, go get it now. You know that, don't. Yeah, it's kind of, no, it's going to happen. No, it's going to happen. I don't tend people. It's like, I wanted to, I'm smack all of you. Go get it right now. You guys have plenty of time, but the window is closing. Go, go now. We'll wait. So, yeah. Um, you know, if you're looking to get into carbon flight times and you look at it, do some research, um, which is always important. Um, like, Steve had talked about earlier when he got into bread. I, uh, he wanted to research it. I would recommend going over to the forums, right at pythons.com. And, uh, just tons of info there. You can dig it up, search around and check it out. Uh, as far as myself, E.B. Moralea, E.B. Moralea.com. Do you have any questions? Um, or, uh, you're interested in an animal. You can contact me at eric@ebmoralea.com. Uh, we will be, uh, at the, uh, Tinley Park N-A-R-P-C show on, uh, October 11th at 12th. Uh, we will be set up at Carpet Row. Yes. And, uh, basically the rundown for Carpet Row is as follows. Uh, it is myself, as Owen. And we will be sharing the table as Moralea, Python radio, slash E.B. Moralea, slash rogue reptile. Um, Jason Bailey. He's slash, he's coach serpent. Got a mouthful, right? Uh, Howard Redding. Redding reptile breeders. Uh, Julie from GFX Moralea. And Chris Rindles will be from headhunter reptiles. He'll be hanging out. I think he's gonna be at Jason's table, helping him petal snakes. But, uh, should be, uh, that, that, that right there is a pretty cool lineup of, uh, uh, oh, and don't forget, uh, right alongside Carpet Row, uh, we'll have, uh, a good friend, uh, Matt Minutola. Uh, he's gonna have his, uh, fornios. So if you're looking for, he's honorary Carpet Row. Yeah. He's kind of there, but he isn't. Yeah. He's for real. He's Carpet Row, et cetera. Yeah. He's, uh, he's, et cetera, part of Carpet Row. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, what Matt there. Let's go check it out. Yeah, Todd will be there as well from psychotic exotics, but they're not in Carpet Row. They're over there. So yeah, it's gonna be a really fun show. I can't frickin' wait. So, um, definitely be cool. That's all I got. Cool. Uh, right guys, you can go to roge-reptiles.com. We just updated all the babies for sale. Uh, and we have free delivery to any of the shows we will be attending. I will be at the Oaks show, but I'll be there early. So if you're looking for me, or if you're wanting me to drop off a baby, you should contact me before the Oaks show. So I know when to be there and all that other stuff. Um, also we get free delivery to Tinley Park. So if you're going to be in Tinley and you like what you see, uh, I already had, I already had several people contacting me about babies and actually buy babies outright delivered at Tinley because they wanted to make sure that they were going to be there. So, uh, you can do that. Uh, you can also go and find roge-reptiles.com. We have to have the classifieds over there. If you have any babies that you purchase from Rogue, and you want to take some updated pictures and send them on over to us, that's awesome. We always love seeing that. And we'll add them to our sold babies, uh, album on the basement page. And I'll give you your name, give it a, the snake's name, and it's lineage info. It will all be down there. Um, and yeah, also look for updates on the website. Uh, and we're going to be adding certain things out. You guys track down lineage a little bit easier and things will pass. So yeah, lots of fun stuff. Anyways, uh, that's all we got for you guys tonight. Uh, what we will say is, uh, thank you for watching and we'll catch everybody next week for some more Mariah Python radio. Good night. Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, or as a reptile breeder and their owner of Proge.com. I've been hurtin' since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markham and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptile report.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news. Photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyist just like you. 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You ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. Ship your reptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. The materials needed to ship your reptile successfully, live customer support, and our live on-time arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. [silence]