Morelia Python Radio

Rough Scaled Pythons with David Dendinger.

In this episode we are joined by David Dee and we will be talking all about Rough scaled pythons. The rough scaled python is one of the rarest pythons in the world and this past season David successfully produced a clutch. We will hit on everything that led to this awesome clutch. David also works with some awesome chondros so I am sure we will hit on some chondro talk too.

Duration:: 2h 7m
Broadcast on:: 02 Sep 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown here, you may remember me at the line-backering in FL, where as a reptile breeder and their owner of Projekt, I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markham and I created the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news. Photos and links, we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists, just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is, it's free. You're a buyer or breeder, you've got to check out the reptile report and market place. The market place is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling definition full of features that help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, search by sex, weight, more, or other keywords, and use our Buy Now options to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.the reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your market place account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the market place to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum mat. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful market place Facebook page. If you're buying and selling, use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. Shipereptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. The materials need to ship the reptile successfully, live customer support, and our live on time arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the market place, find that perfect pet or breeder, then visit ship We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. Thank you. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hey everybody, welcome again back to Moralea Python radio. Two nights this week, possibly three. What's up Owen? How are you doing? Not much. The only way to top a three episode week of NPR is if you and I totally decided to lose our mind to do like a week straight, like special, like a show a night for a week and, you know, that's never going to happen. No, no, no, no, no. I'd be so tired of talking to you by like the third night, it would just no. [Music] Baby, you get to have a lot of topics anyway. Yeah, I was just talking about over on the chat about how, you know, it's always been something that we've thrown around about doing our own, you know, network of reptile podcasts. Yeah, it's one of the things that was an idea that you and I kicked around a while back and unfortunately every time we kind of like stop talking about it and stop thinking about it and then something like what happened last week happened and then all of a sudden it's back up in our brains again and it is something that I think we will eventually do. But it has to be done on our terms and the proper way. Otherwise we don't want to do it because we've been offered a few times to step away from the blog talk and join other reptile radio stations and things like that. And we've turned them all down because there were through varying degrees of not having the power that we have now with being able to do whatever the fuck we want. Yeah, I don't want to do it. I've told you that numerous times and you've agreed with me where it's like if we could have a captain seat, no. Yeah. I just don't like being old what we have to do. You know what I mean? No, no, no, no. I like the way we do things. I know some of the radio stations have more obligations to commercials and things like that. Oh, I think commercials. Yeah. If we have a commercial happening through the show, I'll just fall asleep or go do something else or, you know, hang up. We put commercials. I think commercials on podcast should be either at the very beginning or the very end. So if you're listening to it, you have the option to fast-forward through it or not. Or turn it off. Yeah. Or that one I'll show in. Yeah. Something like that. Yeah, we could have a, you know, we could even dabble. It wouldn't be us, it would be other people. But, uh, Blizzard podcasts and, yeah. Boa podcast and Water Bowl podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Can we just kind of, can it just be met in a room with a bunch of water bowls? Like just talking, like no script, no semblance of order. Just, you know, this water bowl is great. Guys, and some of that's a thick, filly accident. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Yo, yo, yo, check it out. Check it out. Water bowl goes down here, man. This is how we do it straight out of the John. Exactly. The John and John and the John, with the John and John, it's like, wow. I don't understand what you said, but, yeah. Again, that's your. Oh, so, yeah, we're just waiting for, uh, uh, Dave to, uh, The call. My day has arrived. It's the show entirely on a scale. I mean, holy shit. Yeah. Look ahead for this for a day. Yeah. I am going to throw out, um, I don't know if anybody will be in the Arlington, Texas area, um, on September 12th, but, uh, The Southern Carpethest is going to take place. Um, it starts at three o'clock and it's at, uh, Bill's, uh, place. He's, he's hosting. He's, he's pulling it out when he's, uh, opening up his house for people to come by and. Or basted, but. You know, I was talking to him earlier and I was, uh, I was telling him that I'm kind of looking forward to seeing his car ponders. Um, what have you done to you? Do you, do you bring something? Are you sick? What's wrong with you? Yeah. I, I just, they're, they are really cool. Look at that. But, you know, they are cool looking, but what's that sweet health anyway? Um, but Bill's got a lot of stuff. If you could steal that diamond zebra. Jag thingy that he has and like just ship it back to me. I wouldn't be upset. Uh, you know, you know, the other thing that, uh, I'm really looking forward to, uh, seeing is the Ocelot zebra jag. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. It's in that here. Yeah. Yeah. I remember seeing that. Don't do what you're doing. Yeah. I was looking at the list of, uh, of people that were going to be there and the one that stood out to me that I can't wait to hang out with is Michael Penel. Um, yeah, that should be pretty cool. So, apparently that it's bring your own, uh, bring your own beer, uh, or bring your own bottle, whatever you choose. Um, I think Bill said he has a margarita machine. And, uh, apparently there's going to be swimming going on. Um, but, uh, it's going to be a good time. Um, I'll send you plenty of pictures, Owen, as, uh, I'm down there. Uh, please do. So, can it happen? Yeah. This is, again, another reason that we'd have a live, life-sized cardboard cutouts of each other so that you could, like, bring that with you. Yeah. That, that I couldn't make it. I mean, that would have just been perfect. So, of course, I don't trust half a few people with what you do to a cardboard cutout of me. But, you know, it's the fault that counts. Um, I think that would just be awesome to go down. And I'm sorry. I can't make it. And I'll hopefully try to make it next year. And, uh, you know, um, I hear it's going to be a good time. So, should be cool. You usually get on ballplay too. Yeah. I can't wait to see an adult Candino. Uh, that'll be pretty cool. Um, I just, I just said about half of what you just said there. But, okay. Yeah. Um, the, uh, the one cool thing about, um, about there is just, it's just like networking with a whole new group of, uh, Carp and Python enthusiast. And, um, you know, yeah. It was the, for me personally, the ticket wasn't that much. Um, a lot cheaper than any snakes that I bought. So, um, you know, it's just, uh, it's just one of those things. Like, I think that kind of, uh, that kind of investment into, uh, into the community is, uh, is good. You know, because you get to, I don't know. It's just a different field. Don't you feel it's different when you're like, uh, talking to people. Um, one on one, you know, I, I just, I just think it's a different field that you get to actually get to know the person. And, you know, I, I mean, I absolutely love that we started this whole shindig. And the whole premise of it was that, you know, it did feel different than it was something that needed to happen. I mean, I've, I've spoken to a ton of people at shows and it's when you get them out of the shows is when you start really kind of. You know, hanging out and becoming friends and building a relationship that has fun. So. And that's what you need. So, yeah, and now you get to have a whole bunch of people who never realized just how short you really are. So, I mean, you know, that'll go over. I can't remember what that on the thing with somebody put that to the Hobbit from Philly is coming. Exactly. I told you once I, I'm sorry. I went to a 10 million. Somebody's like, where's your Hobbit? I'm like, I didn't bring him. I'm sorry. That's absolutely everywhere. So it's, you know, it's one of those things where it's cool. It's cool. It's called. It's gotten to this point now. Where there are multiple ones that we can go visit. This was just a stupid barbecue and Howard backyard. I mean, it's like, what was it? No, the four of them. So. Yeah, that's awesome. Waiting for international carpet. You're up in Australia. I know you people hear me. So. Well, they had that. I don't know if they still do it, but they had that. Yeah. But really, it's worth. Yeah, it was. They need to be labeled carpet that I don't count it. So. Well, we go to Australia. We're going to call it carpet fest. I can't write. I can't write. We're doing field herping. Well, Owen, you've waited for the show for three years. This is almost as exciting as if we did a show on Inbracata. That would be for me. Thank you. For you, we're going to do the Morelia Caronata and David's on the phone. Oh, my God. Hey, David, welcome to Morelia Python radio. Glad to have you guys. How you doing? We're doing well. No, we're finally back on the air, but yeah. Yeah. All that sorted out. Yeah, sorry. We couldn't get you on at the proper time. The technical difficulties always seem to happen when we have like a really cool show lined up and it like torpedoes us. I don't know who's doing it on purpose, but we'll find out. But anyway, good to have you on Dave. Eric's just starting to get the whole rough scale bug. And of course I've been obsessed with them for probably about three, four years now. So you actually have success with them, so it's good to have you on. Dave, why don't you just tell us how you got into reptiles in the first place? I've liked reptiles almost all my life when I was one. I don't know if you guys have heard about Red Rocks. It's a state park here in Colorado. It's a big concert venue. I went there with my family on a picnic. And when we walked back to the car, the car was parked against some rocks, so we couldn't get in on that side. But there was a rattlesnake parked on the driver's side. So my dad, he decided that he had to kill the rattlesnake to get into the car. Somehow that sparked an interest in reptiles with me. A few years later, my dad bought my sister a pair of ribbon snakes. One of them was named Puffy, the other one was named Tuffy. Tuffy ended up eating Puffy, and they both died. And it started out with positive experiences, but I still liked them quite a bit. But they all gave stories that are starting tragically so far. But all right, what did it kind of go forward? I mean, did you get your own, that pile from that point? Yeah, when I was about six, I got my first snake. It was a corn snake. When I was about eight, I got a ball python. After that, I kept Dermot's boa, Brazilian rainbow boas, Mexican broing pythons, different king snakes and milk snakes. I had a short tail python, a ring python. I'm trying to remember what else. Some lizards. Cool. I liked horn frogs quite a bit. And then when I was about twenty-two, I sold them all. Okay. And you just kind of read pilots for a little bit, or did you kind of move in a different direction? I went to New York for school, and then I came back, and I always had the bug. I was always looking at king snake at the classifieds. That was a big place to look at the time. And one day I saw the ad for rough-scale pythons that Bushmaster had. I knew I wanted them, so I talked to my wife. I bought a pair. A few weeks later, I got a second pair, which resulted in her spending the night in a hotel, evaluating our relationships. And now I have about seventy snakes. No. Wow. He's quite a trooper. So, what was the rough-scale's your first venture back into snakes? Or had you had some other animals before they came back into the picture? No, they were the first ones I got back. And then after that I got the complete carpet python and the complete chondro. And I got pulled into chondros. Something I was always interested in, but I thought that they would be easy to kill, and they'd bite the shit out of me, but they're not so bad. Yeah. So, what drew you into Morelia in the first place? Because, I mean, you said your collection before was pretty all over the place. What kind of drew you to Morelia? Well, I like the size of carpet pythons, rough-scales, and chondros. They're all pretty small, they're manageable. I think what drew me to the rough-scale specifically was just, I remember watching an episode of O'Shea's Big Adventure. I don't know if you guys ever saw that one. But he went out and he was in the expedition to find the founding group, which on Weigel. And I remember watching that show and I thought, "What the hell are these? I don't even know these existed." And then a few years later they were for sale, so... Who? Couldn't pass up the opportunity. Oh yeah, there's something that weird in that rare, right? It's just kind of like there. Is there anything else that kind of drew you into the rough-scale just on a physical sense of the snake? Well, they have a lot of unique features, the kilt-scales. I think they're the only species of python with kilt-scales. And going pythons have kind of a beaded-scale, but they're the only snakes with a ridge down their scale, like a rattlesnake. They also have gigantic teeth. Yeah. They're pretty cool snakes. I like their eyes. They have the bluish eyes. Yeah, that's a... I can attest to their teeth for the first time ever I got chewed on by one of mine yesterday. So I guess it was kind of like a... You got this? To get ready for this show. Yeah, I got... He bit me. I don't know what the hell. So, but yeah, I'm like, "Wow, all right, well, okay." So... Did he hang on to you? No, no, no, no. He didn't hang on to me, but I guess his teeth were so long, there weren't puncture marks, it was just flash marks. So, but they're a perfect design of teeth. So yeah, it was a nice little hand bite. It was fun, but never gotten bit by one of mine before, so that was a surprise. So, you got teeth. [Laughs] I did this kind of like this write-up thing to where we were going to talk about some natural history and such of just some of the different facts and stuff. So, since you guys have these things, I'll just read it off, and then you guys can comment on it since you both have them, and I do not. But for people that don't know, rough scales are not really that closely related to carpet pythons and the carpet python complex. They did DNA research that really makes them the sister species decondros. I think Terry Philip really used to refer to them as rock condros. I mean, you guys both have condros and rough scales. Do you see -- I'm sorry, I'm looking at the chat room. There's a chat at the same time. [Laughs] Yes. Do you guys see a resemblance between condros and rough scales? Can you see the similarities between the two? Or is it similar to what you would see with, say, a carpet python and a brattle python, or what's your thoughts? Okay, go ahead. Just looking at them, I'd say they look kind of like a cross between a carpet python and a carp in the green tree python. Their heads are similar to a green tree python, but they're not as laterally compressed. I don't know if they spend as much time climbing. They don't perch like a green tree python, mind-down anyway. Mind-down either, hey, yeah, they may not be dead on it. Yeah. So they would kind of lay on the bottom of the cage, or, I mean, they're really found in like rock escarpments, right? They are, and you know what, it's funny because I put a couple of tree branches in with one of my guys, and he doesn't sit on them, but there's a small crevice between where the tree branches sit on top of his hide box, and he jams himself in there. So it's almost like they like the naturalistic slits and rock crevices that would be there. So it's almost like they spend a lot more time jammed into tiny corners than they would up in a perch. But some of my other guys, if you give them a really thick branch that they can kind of lay across, not like a traditional chondro. They'll do that. But again, what Dave was saying, they look a lot like chondros from like the face and the head, but then the rest of them doesn't. It looks more like a carpet pipe on body type wise. So it is like a kind of a perfect joining between the two. Yeah. Cool. Okay. So Dave, you know, we were talking about similarity with chondros. Have you noticed the rough scales doing the, well I know in nature, they pretty much do that same kind of, they go to the bottom and they kind of hang there like chondros do when you turn the light off in your reptile room. Have you noticed that same habit? Yeah, they do that. When my adults were little, I had them in tubs with tree branches, I cut off a tree and they would hide during the day and then at night, they would hang exactly like a chondro waiting for something to walk by. My adults right now have shelves instead of perches. So they have shelves. Have you found the shelves work a lot better for them than a perch or something like that? Would they not sit on a perch at all? You guys? I'm not sure. I don't know why I switched from perches to shelves when they became adults. I don't think it matters either way, but mine don't have the option to perch so I don't really know if they would or not. Hey, if it's not broke, don't fix it. If you're sitting on the shelf, shelves work. Good. I like it. I don't know, I might start looking at shelves from what's on my guys. I think Terry kept some of his in tubs. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah, I think he did. I can't see it there and I don't like that. I want to see him. But yeah, I can understand. I can probably do well in tubs. Now, they have an enormous rounded frontal scale on the top of their head. Dave, do you have any thoughts? Owen, do you have any thoughts on what that is for? The only thing I could think of, well, I guess there are two things. The one is that the permanent third eye thing that people talk about with lizards that they use to detect UV. I don't know if snakes have that or not. The other thing I was thinking of is some of my condros have a habit of rubbing that part of their face. I'm not sure what they're rubbing their face on because they're in tubs without any corners at all. But they must rub their face along the edge of the perch and they get rub marks that turn yellow. And so that's kind of where that big scale is and there are also large scales above their eyes and above the end of their snout. So I thought maybe it was for protection when they're crawling around rocks. Yeah, that actually they both make sense. I would have said the protection as you're crawling around rocks and stuff, but I didn't even think about the kind of like the whole lizard third eye thing. I mean, also, I don't know, maybe is like a way to kind of soak up a little bit more UV, larger surface area. Maybe that's your only part of your head. You're going to stick out of the only part of your body is your head. You're going to stick out of the rock. So you want to get a little bit more sunlight. I'm not sure why it's there, but it looks cool. But I would say I love that. Especially because you kind of nailed it with the whole like they have that big one in the center, which everyone sees, but they also got the huge ones by the nostrils and their eyes. So I would definitely kind of lean towards protection of the vital areas. So, but it gives them kind of like an armored plate look, which is awesome. So, okay, so what about, I guess I would ask you this Dave, what about, I think one of the coolest things with these guys is the threat display and the teeth. Have you seen this? Well, you know, what's the, what's your thoughts? I've seen a couple of them rear up, but they haven't opened their mouth. And since way side to side, I have had green tree pythons do that though. Really? I had no idea the green trees did it as well. Yeah, one of them, one of them about a week ago was doing it and I posted a pick on really a weirdest form. But it's been off, it's been pissed off for a week. I'm not sure what it's doing. I don't know why, I don't know why it's mad. Wow. I'm going to hunt down that picture because I want to see that. But I have only seen my ruffy, one of my one ruffy did the threat display once. And that was when I first got him and I unpacked him. And because there was some miscommunications with shipping, he arrived during like a snowstorm and I thought he was dead. But he perked up to the threat display and I'm like, Oh, thank God you're alive. You want to kill me, but you're alive. I don't care. So it was one of those moments. It is kind of cool when you threat display, but it's unless they're going to do it and like pause unless you kind of look at it. It sometimes can be over really quickly. So, but I imagine it's really cool to watch an adult do it. So that's why I kind of want to see that picture. Now you're of your chondrol pissed off at you. I always thought that the reason for the teeth was because of the fact that they have their main source of prey is a it's the Kimberly rock rat. And what this rat has evolved to do is that it sheds its skin and its hair to escape from them. But the long teeth are basically there to sort of grasp through that so that they can hit the flesh and sort of hold on to them and penetrate the lower layers and the muscle so that they can grasp them, which I thought was kind of cool. So, Dave, have you had any issues with your guys teeth with like the fact that they may puncture their own gums ever once in a while? No, but one of my adult females had a shed tooth stuck between her gum and her. I guess her lip. Oh, and so I was looking at her. It looked kind of funny and I've had this with other snakes too. You fish around in there and there's a tooth and it's encased in slime. I guess they developed that slime to protect their mouth. They haven't had any bite their own gum wine. Okay. I have. So, and that led to wonderful daily mouth cleanings with beta dine and stuff like that, which were so enjoyable. It was ridiculous. But yeah, I heard, I think it was, was it Terry who told us that was something that could happen or they could potentially bite their own gums or lips and that, of course, could have problems with that kind of stuff. So, I get to say something to think about. Yeah. What about, I was going to ask, shoot, I lost my. You also think the dark's gone now. No, no, no, I lost, I lost my too busy sharing pictures over in the chat. They'll be fine. I do have, I have three questions here. And then we'll get into how you keep them and then how you bread them. The first question comes from Stuart Robson would be interesting to know how much info he has regarding the current numbers in the U.S. and any specifics he may have regarding the background of his adults would be nice to have him talk about their temperaments and such. I found them very quirky to work with. Very curious and outgoing and I think things like that often get overlooked. What's your thoughts? If I had to guess about how many are in the U.S. I'd probably say 200. I think Bushmaster first produced them in 2010. I think they had one clutch then. The next year they had three clutches and then I think the following year might have been the last year they produced them before they sold their adults. And then I don't know if the ones that Terry's produced at Black Hills, Reptile Gardens if any of those made it out. And then in 2014 when I produced my Casey Lazick produced a clutch a couple weeks earlier and then there was another gentleman. I think he's in Florida. I don't remember his name right now. He produced a clutch right before mine. And I don't know if anyone produced any in 2015. I actually from what I heard because as you know Dave I was looking for a female for the longest time that I don't think anything was produced in 2015. If not, if there was I haven't heard about it. So I'm pretty sure you and the other two guys like Casey and then that gentleman in Florida were the only ones that are 14 and then I don't think anything happened in 15. So and all those adults that it's weird because you mentioned all the adults at Bushmaster but you'd expect there to be more pairs or more breeding at least popping up or even just more lone adults and there's nothing. So I don't know how many they hold. I remember seeing them on the list. I think it's at adult rough skills but I don't remember seeing a count. No, of course they weren't going to give you a count. Thousands. That would be too easy. But yeah I do remember that. I do remember they did that. They sold the pairs off which I was kind of surprised that they did that but whatever. And then he asked where I got mine. I got mine from Bushmaster. One of the pairs was from Reptile Gardens at Bushmaster Traded. Terry for I think Terry wanted a pair from Bushmaster. I don't think he could sell them but I think he could trade them so I ended up with a pair from him. And then the last part of his question was their temperament. They're super mellow. They're fun snakes to hold. They kind of cling to you when you hold them. Sometimes they're pain to get off of you. They can ball up like a ball python. Yeah. Really? Yeah. It's interesting. And sometimes they do it with your hand in the middle of the ball and then you're there until they decide they want to go someplace else. Cool. Okay. I have a question in from Ian. Ian Wynden. Since we are now a number of generations in the captive breeding. I'm interested in whether any genetic issues have become apparent as a result of the small foundational gene pool. I'm not aware of any and I think there are several more generations in Australia and I haven't heard of anything going on over there. I believe the founding group was three males and two females. And I'm guessing they all came from separate gorges. So there would be a little bit of genetic diversity. I think as long as you didn't have successive generations of inbreeding you could probably be okay. Right. Like mother to son or father to daughter, that sort of thing or siblings. You could probably avoid having a recessive gene on both sides. Right. Yeah. So that's good. Have you noticed any difference in the way the offspring look? I mean, are there any kind of, you know, lighter color, darker color, different type of pattern? Or are they all pretty much the same? The ones that I hatched were all really uniform. I was hoping there would be a standout whether it would be a light one or a dark one and that would have been a holdback. One of my adult females was really light when I got her and she's still light. She's kind of muddy though the contrast between her brown markings and her tan markings isn't as good as so many others but she's noticeably lighter than some of the others. And I've seen some pictures of Australian rough scales that have really good contrast. So I think if you bred a few generations for contrast you could get some better looking rough scales. Have you, I'll correct me if I'm wrong Dave and if you've heard something different, is it that they've had four maybe distinct color? I wouldn't even want to call them color patterns, almost like variations of the rough scale pattern or something like that versus like brown to cream color? I don't think I've heard that. Okay, that may have just been somebody who may have been researching it or something like that at whatever. Yeah, there are different shades of the background color and then different shades of the base color and you could have varying combinations of the two. Yeah, more brown to cream or cream the brown kind of stuff, I guess. Yeah, the two that I bred had the best contrast of the four that I have. Are you gearing up to breed all four in the next season? I'm actually going to, yeah, I'm in a pair of decondros. Oh, no. Nice. I'm just talking with you. Hey, if you do, I only have one request that you call it the battle, and then after that I don't care what you do with it. But, no, I wouldn't do that. No, who would? I still want to do it one day and I'm going to feel so bad. That's all I'm really trying to breed them. That's almost as bad as somebody putting a helmet hair up python with a jack. Who would see that? That's all. Let's not think about these horrible things, okay? God. I'd like to see it. I wouldn't do it, but I'd like to see it. Well, yeah, we all want to look at the train wreck. We don't want to be involved in it, though. So, yeah, we don't blame it. You got to do like, you got to do like, speaking does and go under it, you know, like a different name, you know. So I have a different account on Facebook and, you know, just show the breed. Nice. I'm going to hold off on the the last question I have is from Bill. It's about sex and babies, but we'll get to that when we get into taking care of the baby. So, let's get into some some husbandry talk. Cool. So, all right. So, Dave, how are you keeping your ruppies? I mean, well, what, what cages are you using for your guys? What sizes? The adults, well, I guess they sold out a little ones. The adults are in a stack of four-foot boa files. They're four feet wide, two feet deep, and 18 inches high. They have a shelf. The underside of the shelf, there's a heat panel. That allows them to sit under the heat panel, or they can sit on top of the shelf. And then it's like kind of like a heat pad. And then they have two boxes, two hide boxes, one on each end. And keep them on indented craft paper as substrate. Okay. Now, how, how large you let your guys get. I know there is some debate on the size of an adult rough scale. A lot of people say. Condro size is max, well, you should have these guys. And I know at least of a few people in Australia who have pushed them into the, what would be considered a small carpet python size. Yeah, I've seen some huge ones. Yeah. My adult females are about 1400 grams. The adult males, they don't feed as much. They're more like 600 grams. I think they should probably be bigger than a condro. They hatch out larger than a condro. Okay. Okay. So they do actually look bigger than a condro. Okay. Um, what are the temps you're giving these guys? Okay. My room is heated. So the coldest they get is normally about 80 degrees. So the cool side is 80 degrees. And then the heat panel is 85 to 86. Okay. Cool. They probably spend more time on the cool side than the hot side. I have noticed that myself is that you kind of give them the warm spot, but they kind of sit towards the cool side. And have you noticed that you guys are your rough scales more active at night? Yeah, they don't move at all during the day. They're most active in the early evening. And then they're on high alert. You stick your hand in there. They'll let you up. That's a dear Lord. Yeah. That's what happened yesterday is I'm like reaching in and see if somebody ate and I got myself destroyed. But it's almost like the, if you ever want to just see all the rough scales kind of warmth, like, you know, pop up real quick as you walk through your snake room with a flashlight and all of a sudden all the fronts that are ready to roll. So that's cool. And for feeding these guys, how do you, what's your feed schedule for the adult? We'll get into babies and meos when we get down there, but what's your feed schedule for your adult females and your adult males? I feed them all softwares. Oh, really? Yeah, I saw them in water so they're stopping wet. And then I feed medium softwares, whatever that means, if you go to the males, probably about every three weeks. And then the females get bigger softwares and I feed them more like every two weeks. Okay, so what's the draw of softwares versus a normal rat in your opinion to them? Um, maybe, maybe maturity? Okay. It just seems like the right size food for them, a mouse is kind of small and a rat is kind of big unless you feed it a young rat, kind of like what some of your other guests have said. The softwares are a little small for the females. That's why I feed them more like every two weeks. Okay, every two weeks is an African softwares. All right. Okay, mine just eats rat. I'm a bad person. Oh, that probably doesn't matter. It probably doesn't, but you know, these are the kind of snakes. Oh my God, no, does it matter? Great. I'll be reading that later. Have you noticed anything kind of cool observation-wise for these guys? We're just kind of like a moment where one of them either surprised at you by something that they're doing or they're not doing? Uh, we didn't talk about the color shifting that they do. Have you seen that in yours? That's pretty cool. Did we talk about the day night kind of color shift or? Yeah, neither. They can be grayish. They don't do it very often. I've seen it more in my males than my females, but you go in there and they look kind of ghost color. Yeah, it's one of those, I never saw it until Carpethas, when they took my male rough scale and I didn't see him for the rest of the day. And I came and I found him and somebody was holding him outside in like direct sunlight and there were colors bouncing off this thing that I'd never seen on him before. And it was just kind of like, oh, all right. You kind of noticed it a little bit more indefinitely in direct sunlight. So it is kind of cool. It's almost like they fire up like an IJ or something like that. So it is cool. The other thing that's kind of interesting is I had a female get out of her cage. Yeah. And they're normally really mellow, but I found her if she was on a shelf and she was pissed. So she got the taste of freedom and decided she was a wild snake. That was kind of interesting. All right. So always keep them locked. Got it. All right. All right. That's cool. All right, Eric, I think we're on breeding unless you want me to do that one. No, no, no. I just didn't know if you guys were done talking about. Okay. I didn't talk about the hatchlings because you want me to talk about that. We're going to get down there. We're going to get to the hatchlings in a second. Okay. We're going to do the other, the getting to the hatchlings apart first. I'm going to first preface this by saying that over on MP, Marie Python forum, Dave posted up a threat over in the rough scale section showing various pictures throughout the breeding process, which is pretty cool. Breeding, ovulation, the eggs, the babies, et cetera, et cetera. So that's pretty awesome. So let's just walk through the breeding season. Do you do anything for pre-season conditions or are you like a seasonal feeder? What's your approach there as far as any prep before the season starts? Before I bred them, I wasn't sure if I was going to breed them or not. They would only be two and a half when I paired them up. But I was feeding them just to see how big they'd be. And they gained several hundred grams right before I introduced them. The male was cruising around. So I thought, well, what the hell? The female seems big enough, so I put them together. But it wasn't really planned out. It was kind of a repulsed decision. Wow. Well, that's a good surprise that you had success time. That's a good idea. Alright, so what are you doing as far as cooling or anything along those lines? I don't do much intentional cooling, but they're in a basement, and the stack of cages is against the walls. So here in Colorado, it gets pretty cold in the winter. I don't know what the temperature of the wall is, but because they're a stack of cages and they're not on a shelf, there's no gap between them. Imagine that the backside of their cages is pretty cold. So I introduced them. I have some notes here. I introduced them in February. Okay. When did you start to cool down? When did you think about breeding them? In February? No, I did it then because I got back from a trip. It gets cold here starting in October. Okay. I'm just trying to put the time frame about when you introduced them. So go ahead. I'm sorry. You introduced them? Yeah, I introduced them, and then I saw the pair copulate three different days. Oh, my God. That'd be awesome. The female ovulated on April 7th, and then I have a timeline later on here. The second female, so I put both pairs together. I never saw the other pair breed, but that female was full of follicles. You could set her on the floor, and it would look like she ate a rat, but I knew she didn't because it hadn't fed her. So I don't know if that male didn't breed with her or what, but she never ovulated. Now, I've heard that some boys will just have no interest in breeding. So, again, did you see more activity out of a male that did breed versus the one that did not? Yeah, he was cruising. I don't know if the other male was cruising like that. I can't remember, but I never saw them breed and the other male is definitely a better breeder. It's good to have multiple males. All right. Got rid of my multiple male. All right. Damn it. Well, I'm flying from Dave next year. So, all right. Cool. So when I look at the picture of ovulation, I mean, it's pretty obvious that she ovulated. So, there's no mistake in that. I think I took that picture in the morning. I remember when I took that picture. Yeah. Wow. And how many eggs did she lay? She laid 13. 13, okay. One of them was in fertile. One thing that I think is kind of interesting is they're almost impossible to separate. Even though I got to them a few hours after she laid them, I checked on her in the morning and she didn't lay. I went home at lunch and she laid. So, they were only stuck together for a few hours and I could barely get them apart. So, I ended up just breaking them into two clumps because if I didn't separate them, they'd be too tall and they'd be touching the lid of my egg box. And I didn't candle them because I didn't want to mess with them too much. A week later, I candle them. I figured out that one of them was in fertile. So, I thought, "Oh shit. I better try to get this one off. I couldn't get it off." And I thought, "Well, at least I have the other group in the separate egg box if these all mold and go to hell." But it looked, the infertile egg looked perfect for 55 days and then it started to yellow and it smelled a little bit, but it never got moldy and it didn't affect the other ones that it was touching. So, 13 eggs, it meant that counting the infertile one or no? Yeah, 13 with the infertile. Okay, and how big is the female? How large is she that she likes 13? She was 1,330 grams post-dump. I always weigh my snakes after they take a dump. Before I paired them up, I was trying to make sure they were big enough so I went on the rough scale of Australians' page on Facebook. Now, it's asking people how big they've bred them. There was someone who got 8 or 9 eggs out of a 900 gram female. And there are other people who had bred 1,100 gram females. There was another person who had a problem with egg binding, so... Okay. I probably wouldn't do less than 1,000 grams. No, I wouldn't either. You're good. No. Okay. As far as, I mean, like, your egg box that you have set up, like, well, I should say the laybox, the nest box. You just used the spagment mals in there and are you covering that top? Was that top covered in that tub? Yeah, I think that's a 3-gallon rubber made tub. Seems like a pretty popular tub for snake layboxes. It wouldn't fit in the bowl file cages because they have those shelves in there. So I had to move her and the egg boxes into a 2-foot cube that the type I would use for a chondro that pulled the perches. And I gave her two nest boxes. One of them was full of spagment moths. The other one had shredded newspaper in it. She laid in the spagment moths. Okay. That's cool. Okay. Now, I know that with chondros, it's almost like chondros, you have to, like, almost force the mother to take care of the eggs. Like, we've heard Buddy D'Shammy tell us that he has to, like, lock his chondro in with the eggs. And then you have carbon plate on it. Some carbon plate on mothers will, like, totally defend their eggs and bite their shit out of you when you go get them. Was the rough skin kind of in between? Or was she kind of, like, here are the eggs? Or was she kind of, like, a bear to get off of them? Did you kind of have any trouble with that? No, she was pretty exhausted. Do you mean when I took her off the eggs? Yeah. I mean, keeping her in the nest box. Oh, let's go with both. Did you try to come out of the nest box? Or, and was, did you kind of fight you with the eggs? And you want to go to try taking? I think, if I remember correctly, I put her in the nest box. She would sit on top of it during the day in bath, and she would turn on her side. I guess to heat up the eggs a little bit. And the time from ovulation to laying was 51 days, which seemed like more than I was expecting. I went from pre-layshed to laying was 37 days. So I started doing research on egg binding. Oh, that was freaking out. These are actually the first eggs that I've ever bred. Oh, my God. I don't really have a lot of experience. So I started doing research on egg binding. And what I found was it's pretty rare for snakes to be bound with all of their eggs. And the second thing I learned was that it's normally pretty obvious. When they're egg bound, there's a big lump of eggs by their cloaca. But I locked her in there. And then removing her wasn't a big deal. Okay. It's good. So let's go into the eggs and the babies. First off, you did do artificial incubation, correct? Yep. And what kind of incubator do you have? I have a habitat systems incubator. Okay. Probably 40 inches high, 30 inches wide, and 24 inches deep. Okay. Then I use a herb step four to control the temperature. And then I measure the temperature with a calibrated mercury thermometer. Okay. Cool. I've heard good things about the habitat. So that's cool. What were the temps that you need to better the eggs at and you need to better? 87.5. Is what I was shooting for? Generic Python temperature. All right. So nothing new there. Nothing crazy. All right. How did you set up the eggs in the egg box where they kind of in substrate? How did you add them on like a grape? Did you sprinkle with a fancy Sim containers or? I used some kind of food storage container. It's basically airtight. I poked a couple holes in it. And then when I started, I used vermiculite. That was sopping wet. And I went with that because I didn't want it to splash. If I had to move the eggs, if I had to move the box, I didn't want it to splash in the eggs. I thought the vermiculite would keep it from splashing. But the more you stare at the eggs, the more you think there's something wrong with them. So I ended up putting water in there instead. And I don't know if it wouldn't matter. But they were sitting on light diffusing grid. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Which we all get for our boxes and stuff. Okay. Now, I've never done grid over water. Was that difficult kind of monitoring the humidity with that kind of stuff? No. It was pretty humid in there. I didn't measure the humidity. I just watched the eggs make sure they weren't denting too much too soon. Right. Right. Which, you know, I don't know how the hell you did it without like, I would be glued to my incubator 24 hours a day, kind of just staring at them. And like you said, the longer you stare at the more, you find that it could be going wrong. So I'd have to have like Eric come over and prime you away from my incubator. But how long, how long was the incubation time? Sixty-four days. Yep. Nail, they all kept on their own. I was tempted around day 55, they figure they're like a chondrel. So 50, but they're a little bigger. So 55. And that seems kind of in line with a carpet python. Yeah. I don't know. I'm lucky I talked to myself that I'm not pipping them. If I picked them at 55, they probably would have been all screwed up. Yeah. So did you, did you pip after one slashed out? Or did you wait for everybody else to tell if they all came out on their own? Wow. Wow, 64 days at 87. That's weird. All right. I think if you look in the complete carpet python, the data, there's a little chart with all the egg data for different carpet python species and then rough scales, I think. I think it says 77 days. 77 days. What the hell? It must have been pretty cool. My mind. Wow. All right. So how big were the babies upon hatching? Can I kind of give a little bit of a relative size, maybe compared to a chondrel? Yeah, they're probably, I didn't weigh them. I had some chondros this year. I weighed the chondros. They were about 12 grams. So I'd say the rough scales are more like 17. They're a little bigger. They could eat a fuzzy mouse when they hatched instead of a day old pinky. Okay. That's on the basis of kind of carpet python. And I do know I have seen hatchling ruffies before and I guess like, I don't know, but holding a baby ruffie, you kind of can't see the, you can't feel the keeled scales. Is there about a moment in time where all of a sudden they become, you know, more of a rough scale? Touchwise, you actually feel the pronounced keel? I'd say probably about a year. A year? Okay. And the ones that I sold, I just sold them when they were yearlings. They were about 150 grams at a year. Okay. So they do grow quite a bit my first year for what I've seen. Of course, the one I had from you is probably the youngest rough scale I've had. So there you go. For feed trials, were these guys a little bit of a bear to get going? Yeah, they're pretty much a bitch. I was hoping they'd come out and they'd be pissy and they'd strike at anything, but they wouldn't strike at all. Really? Okay. So I started off, I waited a while because I remember listening to Terry's episode. He said he just don't sweat it. You let him get hungry and then you feed him. So I started with some hopper mice and I think I had one eat the first time. And then the second time I had two more eat, but then subsequent to that some of those I had eight decided that they didn't want to eat anymore. So I resorted to chick senting and quail senting for some. And then the other ones that didn't want to eat, I just fed them small fuzzy heads and shoulders. And that was the first time I ever done that. So that's not really a pleasant experience for the snake. Or for you? Yeah. But they figured it out. Okay, so after I guess a certain amount of time they just started the ones who were picky and you just had to assist feed started taking on their own. Yeah, they started eating live fuzzies. Okay, well then after about five or six live fuzzy meals, I switched them to frozen fuzzies and the way I did that was kind of, it was tea feeding, but it wasn't the same way you do with a condro where you darted around. Yeah. Take the fuzzy in the tongs and rub it into the side of the snake, probably six inches from the head. Yeah. They'd get pissed off and they'd bite it and they'd eat it. It was interesting. They didn't respond to teas feeding when they were young, but when they were bigger, they seemed to work when getting on to frozen mice. Yeah, I mean, going on just from the female I got from you, obviously traveling and new places stressed out of a snake. So she didn't eat for the first like week or two weeks or first two times I offered for the third time. I like tacked her with it and she went insane all over the thing and swallowed it right down. So they do respond to teas feeding or probably. So, but I guess you've truly terrified me now about baby rough scales because I'm not going to know what to do if they won't eat without panic. Oh, yeah, they're a bitch. The adults don't respond to teas feeding at all. If they're looking at the mouth and they're thinking about whether or not they want to eat it, if you touch them with that mouth, it's over. They're not going to eat it. So it's interesting that the little ones went for it. Would you recommend maybe like if you're trying to feed an adult ruppy, do you just like kind of show to them and wait for them to make the decision? Or do you lay it down on the paper or something like that? I just move it back and forth a little bit but I don't touch it with it. Okay. And it's not really, they're not hard to feed. They're pretty hungry. If they don't want to eat, it's probably because I'm not feeding them too frequently. Right. Right. Which I'm guilty of that too, probably. But okay. That's cool. Any other tips you can give for establishing the little guys, anything you think on the top of your head? I think a hide box is important and maybe a perch so they can climb up in the evening and assume their normal hunting position. They might make them feel better. You already have it. Kind of a time of day when you offered food maybe. Would my time work a little bit better? Yeah, I'd do early evening. Right when the sun's setting or a little bit after that, that seems when they're most active. Okay. Cool. I have two questions from Bill. One, what about sexing them? Is it difficult? Is it? You know, because chondros are, you know, difficult to sex and you have to wait until they're a little bit older. Any issues there or are they more along the lines of a carpet python? I had never sex snakes before so I asked Jason Stevens to help me. So thank you to Jason Stevens. If anyone wants a chondro, they should get a chondro from him. So he's friends with Terry. He has Terry what to do with him and Terry said, "Yeah, you can pop him right out of the egg." So I brought him over to his house and he popped him and I think a couple of them squirted tea all over him. And then the ones that weren't popping, that weren't clearly males, then we probed them too. Their tails aren't like chondro tails. They're skinny snakes but they're not nearly as delicate. Gotcha. Okay. And then subsequent to that, I probed them myself. It is pretty clear which ones are males and which ones are female. Okay. Okay, that's good. And the other question, well I have two more questions that popped up. Do they eat and shed when they're shedding or when they're blue? I don't think so that I normally don't feed my snakes when they're in shed, but they kind of shut down. Yeah, I have one male that will. The other male and the female, they look at me with this kind of crazed look of why are you in my cage right now. So one of those things. And that's true with all snakes in my opinion. I'm going to leave your sheds and there are some that won't. So I got to know who you're looking at. You know who you're trying to feed. Here's another question that's a little off topic, but do the sheds feel any different because of the keel scales? I haven't noticed that. You can save a keel in the shed, but it doesn't feel any different. No. Now when you were setting up purchase for babies, and I'm only saying this because you said that a shelf for the adults, do you offer just like a single perch like you would a chondro or you're doing like a perch where it would have a couple points so that they could sort of perch and lay, so to speak. The perches I use look like little ladders. They're a machine out of plastic. Gotcha. HDPE. I got the idea from Steve Volk. He's an Amazon basin emerald tree bell breeder. That's what he does. So they're little ladders and the rough scales always perch where the horizontal part of the plastic meets the vertical part of the plastic. Gotcha. They don't ever drape over the perch. Okay. Interesting. I mean they're there. They're a cool species for sure. I mean do you see like more people? Do you think it's one of those species that people have to see in person in order to appreciate? Do you see them becoming more popular? What's your thoughts as far as that part of it? I think they're a connoisseur snake, snake connoisseur snake. It's easy to take a shitty picture of them. They just look like a brown blob. But when you look at all their interesting features, their huge teeth, their eyes, the large scales we talked about, the fact that they're keeled. They have good personalities. I don't think they're ever going to be super popular, but they're cool snakes. And I really like the story behind them too. But that I think is the most interesting point of them is because I like bringing mine to the shows every once in a while. And that's the part I get to talk to people about is this crazy story about getting them and all the shit that went wrong. But it's still freaking here in front of me. Do we hit on that story? I mean, do you want to share that? I mean, for people that don't know that, maybe we should share that story. Do you guys know that very well? I think they were first discovered in the late '70s, one of them was found. And that's the one that's in the Python, so the world volume one book. And then I think the second one wasn't found until the '90s. I believe only about a dozen of them have been found in the wild, at least ones that are documented. Yeah, aren't they basically thought to be extinct or about to be extinct in the wild? Yeah, it's one of those things where they thought that the reason that they had that collection, or were given permission to collect them, is because they were pretty sure these things were bad, no idea how many they were out there. And because we haven't been able to find them in big numbers, realistically, they should be almost or actually extinct in the wild. Because so far, I think we can only find them in a few gorges in certain areas. So they definitely have the label of the rarest Python out there. Yeah, there's the smallest range of any Python species. The species is found in small, remote area in the northwestern portion of the Kimberly district. So, yeah, they're basically, you know what I find fascinating? I don't know what you guys think about this, but when you think about the story of the evolution of these guys, where the fact that how they diverged from chondros is, well, it's just a thought that when Australia was going through a drying out period, and the climate began to go towards an arid landscape, you know, so you think you sort of have these basically, you know, Australia's, you know, rainforest, and it starts to go arid, and these snakes are sort of stuck out on these, you know, I guess now like these gorges, and then they slowly, you know, evolve in from whatever a chondro and a rough scale evolved from into what we see as a rough scale because of their environment. I don't know, I find that pretty fascinating. It's pretty cool stuff. And the fact that I remember going on MP, I don't know about you guys, but, you know, I mean, who would have thought that, you know, you would one day be able to work with the species, you know? I mean, I don't know, it's just kind of crazy that, you know, they were the rarest python and you never had a, you know, it gives me hope to know that one day maybe I'll be able to work with Imbracata, you know? Maybe there's something out there that we haven't found yet. That'd be good. That's true. You know, I was, when I was on vacation, I was reading a book which I later learned that this was a scrub python, but it ventures in a green tree python country, and in the book there's a, there's a, they talk about a carpet python on New Britain, the island over there by like where you would find ring pythons and stuff. And I'm thinking, why hasn't this been brought up? Why do I not know about this as far as carpet pythons? And, you know, I found out later on that it was a scrub python, but still, I mean, who knows over there in New Guinea? What if there's a rough scale python over in New Guinea? You know? Who knows? That would be, that would be kind of cool. I've seen, so, I don't know, there's, there's, and also there are rooms where there are snakes out there that we know of that haven't even made it to their culture. Remember that, um, how it was at that eyelash boa I sent you a picture of? And I'm like, what the hell is this creature? And why don't I have it yet? It's like, I've never heard of this damn thing. And it's almost like the barring some sort of injunction that would prevent it from being here, eventually we'll get here and we'll be able to check this thing out. So, um, it'll be definitely very cool. So... Hey, I heard you talking about that on one of the shows, so I looked it up. I didn't know that existed either. It looks like it would be easy to kill. It looks like it'd be hard to keep alive. It, it looks like one of the things where I would spend so much money to watch that animal die. And it's like that would not, I don't want to do that. So, um, there's just kind of one thing, there's certain things like that. And of course, you know, the first time I got a rough scale in my hand, I thought, dear Lord, please God, just don't kill it. Just don't like drop it or do anything hard, horrible to it. So, um, but it is definitely cool to kind of have that thing go from, you know, if this is something like, you know, Marco Shea tried to go grab. And, uh, from what I hear, so I want to be told, I don't know if these are the actual stories. They collected five of them, they brought them to a zoo, they got the one was gravid, then there was some sort of fire, which killed a few of the other ones. That gravid female had babies, and then apparently these things breed like bunny ravage to the point where they kind of overflowed all of the zoos and private ownership in Australia. And then the rough scales were able to be exported to other zoos in other areas, so it kind of went all throughout. And that's how we got to the point where we are today, which is why I'm excited when they do things like they approve. So, you know, when Pelley Python's to be, you know, to be brought in bread in the exact same way, so, eventually maybe those will get here. Well, yeah, I mean, they say that they're pretty rare in the wild as well. But I was just thinking, I'm thinking back to when Terry was on reptile radio and he was talking about, um, he was talking about rough scales. And he was saying basically how difficult it was to get into these gorges and who knows if there's more or not, because how difficult it is to get to where they're at. And so, one of the things I remember when Nick was on talking about O and Pelley, if he was talking about how, you know, there could be a whole bunch of O and Pelley Python's, and just because they're all in these rock escarpments, they're sort of tucked way in the back, because I think he was saying it was like 110 degrees, you know, out in the open, so they would tuck themselves way down. And I would imagine rough scales would be doing the same thing. I mean, exactly, it's almost like rough scales have to be endangered and extinct. Well, how the hell do you know? Go out to the gorges and do a count. We can't really get out there. It's kind of hard. So, yeah, the way it rolls, I guess. Yeah. One thing I didn't mention was the other day I was, before I shipped out the last ones that I had, I was double checking, double checking the sex of them, and I needed someone to hold the head. So, I recruited my wife and she said, "If they bite me, I'm going to kick you in the balls and you're asleep." So, I decided it was time to pull out the tubes. So, we put the front half of them in the tubes and I sex them, and you couldn't pull them out. They wedged themselves in there. They kind of took their body from being in a straight position to an S, and they wedged themselves in the tubes, so the only way they would come out was if you let them go forward. And come out the other end. So, I don't know if they used their scales to wedge themselves into crevices, but they certainly wanted to do that when they were in the tubes. Do you think that maybe the keels are almost like, lack of a better term, like treads, like grips to kind of keep them in place and get yanked out of their rock crevices? It could be. I don't know if other snakes do that. Have you guys ever used tubes? No, I just get fit and then just deal with it as it's biting me. So, it's one of those things. But I don't want to get kicked in the balls. Yeah, I'd rather get fit than kicking the balls. Yeah, me too. So, I have heard that rattlesnakes will kind of do the same thing in a tube if the tube isn't the appropriate side. But, I don't know, I don't have that much experience or venomous. So, hmm, something to think about. But, what other snakes can we think? I know that I'm going to try to compare this to, like, other, I know a lot of other animals that have like peeled or bump scales are like, basorial, like sand boas and that dragon rat snake or something, where you could potentially say that the reason they are bumped is to, or keel just to keep them from getting ripped out of the ground or something like that. So, it's not that far of a leap to say that that's what the keels are for. So, let's go with that. So, we get rock crevices and try. So, I don't know why else they would be killed, maybe camouflage, maybe it keeps the light from being so reflective. Yeah, I don't know. It's kind of weird. Maybe those stupid rats that they eat can't get through the, and their mouth is weird and they can't bite through the keels or something stupid like that. I mean, I don't know. So, yeah. Could it have something to do with the environment as far as dehydration? Yeah. God, see, now this is why there needs to be more research on the frickin' roughies. So, if you're in Australia and your graduate students, just go out to the damn gorgeous and figure some shit out, all right? So, it's where we can come in and tell us. So, God, I would love to do that. I don't care how long you've got a truck to the jungle. I will go look for them in the gorgeous. Right. I don't think we're going to go there on our trip to the gorgeous. You saw it. I mean, you never be able to look at the gorgeous. So, it's true. True story. So, let's talk, you also do chondros, which are very similar, like we said, to rough scales. Tell us what you got going on chondro-wise. Oh, I have about 30 adult designer chondros. I have blue-lined chondros, elastic chondros, high yellow chondros, and then I have some possible head albinos. Nice. Very cool. With the exception of the possible head albinos that I got from Rico's wife, they were all red as neonates. Oh, wow. Red chondros. Nope. Okay. You want those chondro people? All right. Do you do anything special or different as far as keeping your chondros than you do for your rough scales? Is there anything special you do for them? When they go into shed, I make sure the substrate is wet. I don't miss my chondros a whole lot, but when they're in shed, or about halfway through a shed cycle, I'll dump some water on the bottom of their cages. The rough scales don't need any extra humidity to shed. You pick up their sheds and they're sopping wet, but chondros can have hard time shedding if you don't bump up the humidity and it's really dry in Colorado. Yes. And they have perches. They don't have hide boxes. They finally don't use hide boxes. I feed them smaller meals. They probably keep them a little bit cooler. Mm-hmm. Okay. What kind of pairings are you doing this upcoming season? I mean, you have quite a nice collection there. They're the same. Anything? Sorry. No, go ahead. Most of them are blue line pairings. Okay. I think I'm going to do either seven or eight pairs total, and I think five or six of those are probably blue line animals. Some of them have a decent amount of black, so maybe I'd get some black ones out of there too. The blue line animals seem to have a tendency of producing black snakes. Right. And then I have a couple of tiger stripe pairings. Those are high yellow snakes that Rico produced. Nice. Why were they called tiger? Was it specific just to high yellow trade, or was it a line, or what was supposed to deal with them? When they're hatchlings, I don't know if the ones that have been produced recently have this, but the first ones that he produced had a lot of black markings on their side. And I don't know if that was true for the yellow neonates, but the red ones certainly had a lot of black markings, black stripes all along them. Right. Okay. Now, as far as like with the, I mean, this would be a good question to ask you, I guess, as far as the blue line genetics and stuff. Do you have a kind of a feel on how you think that, do you find that it's pretty consistent with the animals that you're getting? Or is it one of those, you know, where we always hear about chondros, where it's like you wait, you could get something good, you could, you know, could just get a green snake. Yeah, I'd say most of the time you end up with a green snake. Yeah, you never know. I produce my first chondros this year, and I'm holding them all back. They're both blind animals, but I can't let the best one go. Right. Wow. Those people do for a dark one or one with a reduced pattern, but that's not always the case. I've purchased snakes as hatchlings that look ridiculous and they turn green. Wow. Oh, man, you see, that's, I guess, having chondros, especially blue line chondros opens you up to having the worst case of sellers remorse you could ever possibly have. If you let that one go and kept this other one, and that one turned out to be like that blue, black, crazy, and the one you got turned out to be green. So we're buyers remorse. Yeah. You could spend a lot of money on a snake and end up with a green snake, but if you take two of those green snakes and bring them together, you could get blue snakes. I'm like, oh, I can't do that. I can't. I'll have my, I have my, a ruby ox and I'm good with that. So what about as far as what, what's your thoughts on chondro? It seems to me that like, you know, hardcore chondro people really are chondro people to thick and thin and they don't really. You don't see them sort of step outside that box all too much. You see, rough scales, maybe pushing people in the chondro world, maybe just step outside that box a little bit. I think the rough scales have appealed more to carpet python people than chondro people. Yeah. Yeah. If the roughies with perch like a chondro, I'm pretty sure other people would be interested. But the fact that they don't act like the chondro, they can't all sit in the same thing and, you know, it's set to balance. It's kind of like the difference between, let's be honest, it's like the difference between a coastal and a jungle. I mean, we all love coastal, but when you see a jungle, it's hard to beat a yellow and black snake. So like when you're looking at, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, roughies are cool, but when you have a blue or a high yellow or like this melanistic, crazy looking blue and green and all kind of colors. I can see the draw, you know, I get it, but I thought maybe that maybe just because the species were somewhat similar, you know, maybe looking or like, you know, they're closer to, they're sort of like in between a carpet and a chondro almost, you know. I don't know if they're colorful enough. Yeah. Maybe there'll be a morph one day. Who knows? Yeah. Mine are all possible, have for albino. But it's 0.000, 0.000, 1%. I like that. Jesus. Nice. So what was the pairing? You said you did a pairing this year for chondros. What was your pairing this year for chondros? It was from Rico had a pretty well known male. It's SH05188, and that was a PNG female bred to a Mr. Blue Carolina male. And so he was black and blue. And so he was the sire of my sire, who's all blue snake, and then the female is a Mr. Blue Carolina female bred, you know, Mr. Blue Carolina male named Sky bred to an unknown lineage female named Topaz. Okay. So the Q was also blue. All the neonates are really dark. Okay, so you're hoping that, you know, have any of them started shifting color? Are we still all nice and red? They're still all red. They're about four months old. Okay. All right. I'll be just to see how they start changing out. That would be kind of cool to see, especially because that blue black chondros will get me every time. I don't know why, but they do. So, but I have not spent the crap ton of money on them. So, I don't know if you guys know who Colin, and I'm probably going to mispronounce his last name. Colin Guiley or Gully, something like that. He is, since I mispronounced his name, I'll give you his website. It's jaytrag@repthealth.com. He did a similar pairing last year. It was 75% the same blood as the one I did, and he ended up with some really nice blue animals. So I'm hoping that I have some nice ones too. Each shed is like a Christmas for you, right? I mean, each shed you're kind of like... The hell is it going to look like now? Holding on to that. Good. What you really want to see is blue outside of the pattern. I think a lot of people get excited when they see a red snake, and it starts getting blue on it. But there are a lot of chondros that have blue on them. You want to see blue outside of the neonate pattern. And that means that they have a chance of being all blue. And keeping it. Sometimes they turn tan first before they go to blue, or sometimes they turn pink. That's a really good sign that those pink scales are going to be blue. All right. I still can't do it. It's still too many. I can't live with the what-ifs. So, I'll make it exciting. No, what can be exciting? Terrifying. Do you find that chondros are difficult to breed? Did you find that at all? Your experience? No, I tried four pairs, and I got one clutch. I didn't think they were hard to breed. I thought I had an issue with my female. She was only about 800 grams, and she had a big lump in her. I don't know if she had a tumor or what was going on, but it didn't look right. Compared to my rough-scaled python, that had kind of an even swelling. She was really lumpy, and it turned out just to be a shitload of eggs for how small she was. She had 15 eggs. Wow. That's pretty good for a chondro, I think, right? Pretty good for a small chondro. Nice. Do you keep your chondros on the smaller side, or are you... Yeah, like rats. No, I feed my female and offers, but I don't feed them very often. And then I feed my male's mice. Okay. So, my males are only about 400 grams in the females. I don't have that many that are adult size, but my biggest one is about 1,000 grams. Okay. Thank you. All right, go ahead, Owen. I'm sorry. That's all right. No, no, no. Please, chondro talk is important. It keeps the chondro guys off our backs for a little bit. Anyway, Dave, we have a few questions left, and these are the ones that obviously make no sense, but we have to ask, and that is, if you could have any reptile in the world with no exceptions, what would it be and why? I don't think there's one in particular that stands out. I like some of the carpet pythons, like inlands, diamonds. I like some coastal. I like... These are cool. I know you guys have my luckens. Is that right? I did have my luckens. Yes. So, I had them as well. Yeah. Luckens are probably my favorite of the scrubs. Yeah, they're beautiful. They're gold color. They're a little big. I don't know if I'd get them unless I had a bigger room. Yeah. Is that basins quite a bit? Oh, I don't know. I've been there tolerable. What are they? What do they bite? Is that why? Oh, yes. The ones I worked with at least bit, and they got the piece to kind of back up their pissed-off attitude. Yeah. And this might have just been the three that I worked with. Nothing but pissed in vinegar, and they were just jerks. So, I will never get emerald three. So... Their basins are mellower. I don't know if that's true or not. That I think may have been because I know one that they had four, and one of them was a little bit mellower. And I think he was an Amazon basin, but the other ones are just evil. So, I won't try it. I'm not trying my luck, kids. And they have two right teeth. Yeah. Yeah, they have huge teeth. They're really thick. I think that's the problem. Yeah. Yeah, they are. I had one, the one that got me put a tooth through the tip of my thumb, like right before the nail. It went in and through, and then he broke the tooth off in my hand. So, at that point I stopped touching them. Oh, that was enough for me. Oh, yeah, they're pretty. So, pretty to look at. You mentioned a lot of Morelli, do you think you're going to expand your collection to include more Morellia? type of python and things of that, too? I'm not planning on it, but you never know. You say you're not going to get any more snakes and then you buy a bunch of snakes. Yeah, so is the one. It's been kind of running out of room in time, but you never know. Sure. I'd be more likely to get a carpet python than a scrub python, just because of the size. Yeah. All right, so, now, David, you could go herping anywhere in the world. Where would you go and what would you hope to see? I'd probably go to New Guinea and look for different types of chondros, see what they're doing, see what the temperatures are like, see where they're found and where they aren't. But I hear it's kind of sketchy over there, so I'm not sure if that'll ever happen. Something that's more likely would be Australia. There are chondros there and there are a lot of other different species of python there that I could look for. Nice. Okay. And how would people get in touch with you if they have some questions or want to inquire about some of your baby green trees or rough scales? You have a Facebook page, your website? They have a website. It's vibrantveritus.com. Maybe I should have picked a better name. People don't know what verd is. It's the second part of a green tree python's scientific name. So it's vibrantveritus.com. My email is sales@vibrantveritus.com. I'm the sales guy. I pick up the turds. I order the mice. I'm the sole employee there. And then I spend a lot of time on the Moreliaveritus forum. That's Moreliaveritus.com. My username over there is Dave D. So you can go over there and message me. Okay. Awesome. Well, you know, thanks for coming on the show and talking rough scales with us. We appreciate it and glad that we could finally talk about them and hopefully you'll have more success with them again. I hope so. Are you going to get any? Yes. You've got to get it. Yes. You know, I sort of like not ignored them, but kind of ignored them because they were not at the top of my list, but definitely on the list. And then when I saw them in person, when I saw the babies at Carpafest, I was impressed with them. I thought they were really, really cool. But when I saw the ones at Owens Place where they were older. Yeah, I definitely want them. So I'll probably be getting them next year. I mean, I can't be E.B. Morelia and not have rough scales. You know, kind of like that. Exactly. Yeah. So what if they reclassify them to Condro Pythons and Carnata? Oh my goodness. They'll tell them. Yeah. They don't get it anymore. Nah. You know, the only reason I thought, you know, it's funny. I said that when we were talking about scrub pythons for a while, I was getting scrub pythons and scrub pythons are one of those things where you like, they look really good on paper. You know, like, yes, I love to work with these. They're awesome snakes. And, you know, they haven't been bred. And I want to be able to eat them successfully. Yeah. And, you know, after dealing with, like, carpets and condos, and then you go into your snake room and you're dealing with an angry scrub, that's a whole new experience. So, okay. So, I would be lying if I said that, you know, when they did the whole shift for scrub flights out of Marrelia, I was kind of like, whoo. I don't even need to be many more. So the mall. Nah. Nah. You don't have any? No, no. I still have scrubs. Are they big? Um, not really, because I like to keep things on the small side, everything. I mean, I have a bar neck. She's probably, I don't know, maybe. She just all of a sudden started to go through a growth spurt. So I'd say she's probably six, six foot, maybe, you know. Um, well, I don't know. My helmet hair scrub that I have. Uh, she's probably, yeah, she's probably, I don't know, maybe seven foot. Um, yeah, she's, she's a pretty big girl. Um, and then I have a pair of, uh, uh, tannabars, which they're tiny. But man, they're, they're, they're evil. That's what I heard. I told you that female, I told you that female, like, baby, wouldn't be going to like you ever. Yeah. And you know, the thing of it is, it's like, I don't mind so much of the bite as I hate the shit, man. When you get sprayed with shit, you know, that's like, oh my God. You know, but, you know, it's like, it's like when you're so used to dealing with, like, carpet pythons, which are like, just mellow and chill and chondras forget it. I mean, you know, they just sit on the stick, really. You know, you just don't really go in there at night and you're probably good to go. You're not probably going to get bit, at least with the stuff that I have. I don't have any issues with that. But, uh, you know, what else do I have? Well, the Molokins are the only ones that, that I don't have currently. But, you know, I don't know. They're, they're, they're definitely cool snakes. And I really believe that if they were bred more in captivity, they would probably be chilled just like Greetix. I think that they're just, they're dealing with wild caught animals, you know, and they're just, yeah. Scrubs are super... You're, they're like... And you don't enjoy the white lips. You're going to enjoy the white lips. Greetix are like... Yeah, but they're captive born and bred. The, uh, the, uh, I find scrubs to be almost like, uh, like Greetix where they have that, that sense of what's going on. Like, they're trying to figure out your things out. I'm just a smart snake. They're the smart man. Moralia. Oh, yeah. You know. These things are like really smart. It's almost like, as they, as a scrub gets older, they, they kind of chew into more stuff faster. We have, I mean, I only have 10 of ours here. But I've worked with larger, uh, JAS and, uh, um, waminas and things like that. And, you know, a big adult scrub will definitely decide that every once in a while, it needs to kind of check up on how well, how fast you move. So, um, they're fun. Always fun. Yeah. Do you use trash can lids or anything like that to keep from getting fed up? I have. Yeah. Yeah. I'd be worried about that. Yeah. You know what it is? Like mine are my, my, my group, except my tan bars are pretty mellow, uh, for the most part. But I think with like, like, I don't know about you guys, but my guard is down when I'm handling carpets and chondros, like, you know, I go in there and tap them with the hook. They know that I'm, I pick them up. There's no big deal. But I have a whole different approach when it comes to dealing with scrubs. Like, when I go into my snake's room and I'm feeding or cleaning scrubs, I do that on a separate day. You know, I don't do that on the same day because I just, it's almost like when you're dealing, like, if you had venomous and then, you know, non-venomous, you don't want to, you work with them on the same day because if you're going and cleaning a corn snake, you don't want to be in the mindset of you're dealing with colubrids and then walk in and then you're dealing with the, you know, eastern Dynavac, you might, you know, make a mistake because just subconsciously you might be just being in a groove or something like that. That's kind of how, you know, I approach it. So I just never let my guard down with scrubs because they are beautiful animals, no doubt. I mean, it's hard to beat the head scallation of a scrub python, I mean, that's an impressive head. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're impressive animals. But now I'd like to take you some oxibils being bred. Those are beautiful. Oh, yeah. Those, with all the orange on them, they are great. So, and I would have loved to get a pair of those at one point. But the, I mean, out of, out of the scrubs, I know you mentioned Malookins earlier, those have got to be my favorite of all. But it was almost like the way we, I always kind of dealt with the scrubs is to open up the cage and let them kind of come out where I had more room to figure it out. And it was always had an empty cage nearby and it was just kind of like a, shuffle them from one cage into another one, clean their cage and then kind of shuffle them out. Um, was the way I got around, you know, getting bit in the face or death. And it was the same way with the, uh, Eric, you remember those gold face white lifts ahead? Those really, really good ones. Yeah. Yep. Same way with them. Open the cage, let it attempt to kill me and then I shove it into another cage. So, yeah. That sounds fun. You're, you're really selling me on a mowing. I am. You know? Aren't I? What are you telling me? Come on, can you make right now? Well, I just thought you were all wild caught animal and I have captive born and bred one and there's so much more mellow. It's ridiculous. It's like I have, uh, a baby gold face white lifts right now and honest to God, I can free hand them and they don't give two shits about anything and it's amazing where I've had wild caught or I'm putting air quotes, farm, hatch, adult, no, they're just insanity. So captive born and bred all the way is what I would recommend. Do either of you have ringed pythons? I did and I will get them again. I swear to God. So I had one and it was mean. Mean? It was mean, it bit me on the arm and I, you know how you have that reflex where you jerk back. So I jerked when it bit me is the timing is right, it flew across the room a little bit, landed on the ground and it was ready to bite me some more. That's awesome. Oh, wow. You sold it the next day. Yeah. I sold it. I want rings again. What got to me is the last, uh, last October at Finley, there was a ring python that was mostly like all almost all black and I was tapping and sitting around buying it and then Chad Greg got to it before I did and he's walking around with it and it's one of those moments where I look at Chad and I'm like just, just writing down on the list for this one too and you go, can you and God damn it, I'm going to, I'm going to owe that man so much money at some point. So yep, but I will get rings again because they're like, they're like miniature white lips in my opinion. So, uh, definitely do that again. Yeah. I think they're hard to get going. I think they like skinks when they're little. That's what I've heard too and I also heard that they like, um, kind of like really high humidity and kind of lower temps. So it's like almost, I've heard a lot of people actually keep them with moss, uh, hide boxes and things like that. So, um, and I've done that too with, um, my Dominican red mountain boa and, uh, my savoo pythons. They like that stuff too. So yep, one day soon. Yeah, so many snakes, so little space and a little time. Yeah. The problem, I'm not on the wisdom and I learned about something else and I want that too. So, yeah, I'm sure soon enough we'll have, uh, Owen Pelly's here and, you know, that's pretty much the crossover between, uh, uh, what, antiregion and maralia, you know, it's kind of like kind of looks like a cross between a children's python and a carpet, you know, that kind of thing. They change color and but they're huge, but they're super, they are massive, but I'm, I'm more excited that the, the, the guns pythons are here all of a sudden. So you, you guys believe I'm waiting for those things. Yeah. How big do those get? I'm pretty small, the, the guns, um, I've heard there are a lot like a macalot's pythons here looking at six, maybe 70. Okay. Yeah. Um, I kind of like that, uh, when it comes to my asses, um, macalot I think are calmest, um, besides when they all have pythons and I'll get big, but, um, savoos can be absolutely bonkers when they're tiny and they kind of mellow out but fuscus, which are the water pythons, they never stop being crazy. Um, and they, they get to be about five, six foot two, but, and then they're just like kind of like I have to cover up the windows on their cages with newspaper, otherwise they'll smash their heads on it like every time I walk by. So water pythons are insane, but they're awesome looking and I love them. So, but yeah, macalot's and guns are awesome too and so I'm going anybody on anything right now. I'm. I like how you're a death and some of those snakes are white lips, white lips and water pythons. Gorgeous. Yeah. Black face. White lips are gorgeous when it comes to the year of death and that's what always drew me to them and it hurts me that I don't have any right now at the moment. So, um, I will wreck it by that as soon as I can. Yeah, it's hard to beat those, those type of, those type of snakes with that iridescence and you can't really capture that all that well with the hammer on, you know, it's difficult. Well, when you see them in person, you're kind of like, whoa, okay, now I get it. Yep. Yeah. Cool deal. All right. Well, I guess we will. Hop off of here and wrap, wrap up the show. Again, Dave, thanks for coming on. Welcome back any time. Maybe when you hatch out some crazy blue chondros and such, you know, you can come on and share it with us. And I guess you might as well just add me an O into the list for your rough scales for, you know, 20, you need more. Yeah. He's going to make his own. Yeah. Yeah. He's kidding me. It's like I have 1.1, but then I keep hearing from people that you need extra males and I'm like, oh, crap. So, you know, and then I can't just have an uneven number. So yeah. Okay. How big are your males? Are they bigger than mine? One male is massive. Yeah. He's almost full grown, which is why I'm sending him Nick and I did a trade and he's going out to Nick. And then my other male, who was his brother, is probably a little bit smaller, but he's getting up in there and he could probably breed if I pushed him or even just threw him in with a girl. But yeah, those are my two boys. And then the little girl is the one I got from you. So yeah, I'd say that my one male is probably, they're all probably smaller than your boys, but the one male probably not by much, so he's like a horse. So, it always has. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me on. I really enjoy your show. It gets me through a lot of poop cleaning and water bowl changes and I've learned a lot from it. It's a pleasure to be on here, definitely, and thank you for coming on. And thanks for listening to us. Yeah. Cool. We seem to be very popular with poop cleaners. That's weird. Yeah. People associate us with shit. I mean, that's weird. Yeah. I wonder we're doing good. Well, you have to be in the zone. Yeah, I know. All right. Yep. We stick to what we know. You really have to like snakes to deal with that. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So true. Especially when it's getting sprayed on you. I mean, that's what I'm talking about from when it's getting project-ized at you on your head and your clothes. Yeah. That happens once. It's not good. Yeah. A selling point for chondros is that you celebrate sometimes when the females take a dump. Yeah. Because sometimes they don't want to take a dump. So it's like Christmas morning when you go down there. They're excited when you have to clean their cage. Yay. So, very cool. All right, Dave, again, thank you so much. And, you know, best of luck with this upcoming season for you. Thank you. Keep the focus. You guys too. Okay. All right, we'll do. All right, man. Thank you. All right. Goodnight, guys. Goodnight. Very cool. That's your show, Owen. Yay. I'm happy now. So the- Now we'll- Now I'm going to put out a a- Anybody out there has your burcata? Thank you. Come on and talk to it. Oh, wait. No? No. I'm already working on that. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm so far behind on you. Yeah. So I'm putting out a call to our fellow Australian Herpers. Uh-oh. They have bred rough scales or would be interested in coming on and talking rough scales. I would love to hear what they would have to say for a different perspective. Didn't- Didn't- Dang? Didn't- Wait. I'm looking for somebody to come on and talk like Dave did. I mean, we've had people on that have kept- Have roughies, but not that they're only purpose in life. Okay. I mean, we had Terri on. He talked about it. We had Nick on. He has them. He hasn't bred them. You know what I mean? Like, whereas over in Australia, oh my goodness, man, they're- Well, do you remember when you attend a reptile show, they give you one free rough scale pie pie? Well, you don't see it. You remember, I was talking at McKinley in October to the Australian guys. And they were like, "Oh, I had one with a king tail, so it was for a hundred bucks, and we'd go to hell!" What? After you're shelling out 2,500 for your, you know- No! A hundred bucks. So like firms like Burmese Pythons here. Would you like one? No. Are you sure? No. You get that little reptile back? When you walk into the reptile show, and there is the- Down in Australia, they give you a little critter keeper with the rough scale on it. Well, it's like one of those- Will you take these rough scales? No. All right, listen, I will give you a silver seperate inland if you take these three rough scales away. All right? Yeah, I mean, it's gotten to that point. So. Yeah, I would really love to talk to somebody that's actually been in the environment. You know, I mean, like somebody that's experienced that could talk on that kind of thing. I would love to have more people on to talk about what- I mean, Nick is all physically fit now. I mean, we can send him places, right? I mean, you or I would probably die. Yeah. So we send him and we can report back. He's like an embedded reporter. Yeah. And if anybody tells him I said these things, I will deny it. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to talk to more, you know, there's a- I hate to say that. It's got to be the people at the zoo where they brought them or the people who were kind of involved in the project. We're not cool enough to get Marco Shay. We know that. So good. Yeah. We've tried. We tried. I thought it would be great to talk scrub pythons, but you know, I don't know whatever e-mail he has didn't work and nobody even found him back. We're not that cool. I just- You know, that's one of my biggest frustrations with doing the show is like you e-mail people and you ask them to come on the show. I would so much listen. If you listen to the show and I ever e-mail you and you don't want to come on, my feelings aren't- So you don't want to come on? Yeah. Owen's not going to be upset. Just tell me to fuck off. You know what I mean? Just say like, look, yeah, I don't want to be on it. I don't like people. I don't like talking. I'm an introvert. Or whatever the case may be. I don't care. That's fine. But like when they don't answer, that drives me nuts. My favorite when they ask, what are we going to talk about? I'm like, I don't know your favorite color. What the hell do you think you're talking about? You know? I'd be like, oh, cool. Somebody's asking me to be on a reptile show. I mean, that was pretty cool. You want to talk to me? Yeah. Anyway. Anyway. Okay. Yeah. So, um, I don't know, maybe, maybe we'll, uh, we'll be back this week. Maybe we won't. Maybe. We won't, we'll rethink. But I actually finally opened up that email that you said was supposed to be for last yesterday show. Um, and I'm like, wow, we didn't hit on any of this. Okay. Oh, I know. You think we'll go on air, but anyway, I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't know why I went to my time. God, I hate you. It's been hours. Just, you know, writing up these outlines and just like, yeah, whatever. I don't know what he meant by this going on, you know, I feel like talking about that. I had a week I could ask him what it was, but I don't care. Yeah. I know. I'm sorry. Oh my goodness. Geez Louise. Uh, you're lucky you have a personality, Ellen, and you're quite a funny guy. Well, apparently we had a problem with, uh, blog talk again this morning with uploading our thing, the iTunes, so I don't know if this will go right up or not. Our other show is up. I'm trying, I'm thinking, see what had happened is, is that like I said this on the show the other night, they had, um, they had us on this high definition, uh, line, uh, which was really good for the sound and, you know, everything was a long good, but apparently they didn't have it up to snuff as of yet. So, uh, something happened and it crashed. So they put everybody back to the low five sound, uh, which was how we used to call in with Skype and, you know, and all that kind of stuff. Um, but I think when they must have moved the show, maybe somehow it affected the, uh, the feed, uh, to iTunes, um, so that, I mean, I don't know, that'd be my guess, but I emailed them. Uh, they did whatever they had to do and now it came over there like later in the afternoon. So hopefully once we end the show, I think it's usually over there within like 10 minutes or so. If not, you can, you can, uh, I'm going to put the link up on, um, uh, MP and it's over on, um, the Facebook page, uh, so you can listen to it right there. Straight from your phone, just hit play and, uh, it should work. So, uh, that's that, um, it seems like there's a little bit of traffic on, uh, the forum. Um, there's a few people over there, uh, I posted up quite a few things. One thing that I'm doing this week, I don't know, it's just a trial thing. I know it's probably a pipe dream, but, um, I posted up, uh, my pics over on, uh, MP and then I just put the link on Facebook. So if you want to look at what I posted, you're going to have to go over and follow the link, which actually a lot of people did, I was surprised, you know, because you can see the, uh, the views per page, but, you know, uh, uh, let's see. So, yeah, if you have any questions or comments, um, you can, uh, send them to, uh, set info at MariahPythonRadar.com, um, MariahPythonRadio.com as a website, um, let's see what else. Like I said, you can subscribe on iTunes, uh, follow us on, uh, Facebook and Twitter under MariahPython, um, and our Facebook pages, MariahPythonRadio, um, the, uh, one of, it's next weekend, September 12th into Southern Carpafest, in Arlington, Texas. If you're anywhere near the area, uh, again, in touch with Bill, he can give you directions to the spot, but, uh, it will be cool, uh, be cool to, uh, come and hang out and have a good old time, uh, talking carpets, chondros, rough scales, you know, whatever, carpondros, uh, you know, battle chondros, uh, whatever you, uh, you know, uh, whatever your heart desires. Um, but, uh, it will be cool to, uh, to meet, meet you guys and, uh, put, uh, put a name with a face, uh, uh, it should be a good time, uh, as far as, try to think what else, um, get to forum is MariahPythons.com, uh, my website is ebmaralia.com, if you have any questions for me or an animal that you'd be interested in, contact me at eric@ebmariah.com, which on the side note, uh, I was cleaning today and the citrus tiger head alminos, good God, man, Jesus Christ, whoa, things are smoking hot, dude, they have to be the nicest tigers that I've ever seen. They're so cool, yeah, I think just freedom, forget about the albino part of it, just the tiger part of it is not, but anyway, uh, I will get them from you at one point. Well, hopefully this year, like I told you, I'll have them, um, for sale, uh, no money, uh, uh, exactly, uh, and yeah, you can follow me on, uh, Facebook ebmaralia, uh, which I'm almost at 1400 likes, uh, I would love to get to 1400 likes, that would be pretty cool. So if you haven't liked the Facebook page ebmaralia, head on over there and give us a like, check out my website, put a lot of work into that, still work in progress, I got a care thing going up there, uh, we'll have a breeding page up there, uh, how to breeding type of thing, uh, pretty soon, so, uh, and that's everything that I got, so take us out, Owen, and, uh, maybe we'll see you guys, uh, this week. Maybe not, anyway, uh, well, I got it, you can go to www.roadgabashreptiles.com, check out all the babies we have for sale, as well as the teacher pairings, uh, we'll post them up as soon as we figure them out for this October breeding season, um, also you can go over to roadgabashreptiles@facebook.com, give us a like, there is also a for sale thing on there, also if you have purchased babies from roadgabashreptiles, you can contact us through the web, uh, through the Facebook or the web page, we'd love to have pictures of animals, we have sold to you, names that they go with, we can post them up in our, uh, sold babies album, we'll definitely give you a shout out there, um, this weekend I will be at the White Plains show in New York, uh, if you want to purchase a baby, it can be delivered to White Plains for your charge, and yeah, like I said, I won't be vending though, so don't show up and ask me where my animals are, because they will not be there, um, other than that the last, next show we have after that would definitely be October into New Park, which we're splitting a table with Eric, and that's all I got, so what I will say is, thank you all for listening, and we'll catch you all either next week or later on this week for some more while you type on radio, good night. Hey Chad Brown here, you may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, where as a reptile breeder and their owner of Projekt, I've been hurtful since I was a boy, and I've dedicated my life to advance in the industry, and educating the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markham and I created the reptile report, the reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussion from the reptile world, visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists, just like you. The reptile report offers powerful branding and marketing exposure for your business, and the best part is, it's free. 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Shipereptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate. The materials needed to ship your reptile successfully, live customer support, and our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace, find that perfect pet or breeder. Visit shipreptile.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO] [BLANK_AUDIO]