Morelia Python Radio

Python genetics with Travis Wyman

In this episode we are joined by Travis Wyman. He is no stranger to the reptile podcast world and has the knowledge to back it up. We will be talking about all about genetics and the science behind it. This is a must listen for anyone that is into breeding pythons

Duration:: 2h 28m
Broadcast on:: 12 Aug 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown you may remember me at the line back in the NFL or the reptile breathing that owned the cold job. I've been hurting since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancement in the industry and educated the community about the importance of reptile. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptile with a hobby which is why my partner, Robin and I play at the reptile report. The reptile report is on online news, aggregation sites bringing the most up to date discussions from the reptile world. We use the reptile report.com every day to stay on top of latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit this site and submit your exciting reptile news. Other than this, we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brand and marketing solutions for your business. And the best part is, it's free. You're a buyer or a breeder, you gotta check out the reptile report and marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling destination for the features that help put you and cut it to the purpose of you. Exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, searched by sex, weight, more, or other key words. You are buying our options to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship the reptile account to earn free tokens to each shipping label you will. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies to maximize your exposure. A platinum mat will also be expected. The reptile report is now powerful marketplace. Buy on the selling and shipreptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority over the city. Buy on the account for more than the quality of the material you can share with your animals successfully. Use shipreptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rate and material need to ship the reptile successfully. Live customer support and our live, on time, reliable and transport. We got you covered. Visit the reptile report.com to learn and share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. We are the one-stop shop for everything that's out of it. Everything that's out of it. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Moralia Python radio tonight. I'm very pleased to say that we have Mr. Travis Wyman and he is going to be talking genetics with us. And he is going to be schooling us Owen. Dear Lord, yes, like dear, dear God, we're all going to look like complete idiots by the time we're done with this. I just hope everyone's ready. I mean, you know, it will all be schooled together. So it'll be one of those things. And it's not like, and here's the other thing is, I doubt that even after this episode that people are going to automatically start using terms correctly. When it comes to genetics, like, we're not going to stop calling things go down. So, yeah, at least we'll know the difference. So, yeah, so we're going to hit on some basic genetics and then we threw a couple of different things in the mix to see what Travis's thoughts on it now. Obviously, with some of these things that we're going to hit on, you know, we really don't know the history behind it. So it's really kind of, you know, speculating on different things. Yeah, we will, because some of the things that we're trying to look at and trying to explain are still hatchlings, babies, things like that. So we haven't really seen what they could do reading wise to help kind of unlock what's going on with them genetically. So we're just kind of thinking, kind of guessing here, taking our best educated guess. And for all we know in a few years, we can be completely proven wrong. So, see how it goes. So, yeah, we'll get Travis on here in a couple minutes. But what's going on with you, Owen? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing really. I mean, we were, we had the Hamburg show and then everything kind of just got really quiet over here, which is awesome. I mean, I'm enjoying the raising up the little guys and moving everybody up to different foods. And some of the babies from this year starting to have their second sheds. So you're really starting to see like the color kind of emerge, which is what I want. And I did a high con tiger to my caramel jag this year. And I got one caramel that I would say is a caramel tiger jag by his pattern and stuff like that. And he started to pop and I'm like, oh, hello. So, I don't know. I have too many caramel things. I don't think I can hold it back, but I'm like, oh, good. I got some good looking animals to bring to Tinley, even though I don't have that many to bring to Tinley. So, yeah, I'm in the same camp as you. You know, it's weird to think this, but we're really, I mean, for us, as far as me and you, typically we start the breeding shutdown in October, the end of October. Yeah. Which is really like a couple months away. So soon. Have you noticed any kind of push with your animals towards like the feed me now or die kind of mentality? Oh, yeah, they are turned on. I don't understand. I think it's probably been the past two weeks, but everybody is like in the past, I get spoiled where I can like open their door and I'm like, here's your water and they're like, okay, I'll deal with that later. So I open the door and there's teeth and couple feet of python flying at me. So, and there's not a single rat in the room, like I would understand if I'm thawing like, even if I'm thawing out like hopper rats or pinky rats for the babies, the adults go crazy. But there's not a single rat in the room and everybody's up ready to roll. They want food. They want it now. And I'm like, you guys ate a week ago. Like you guys ate like a few days ago. Knock it off. So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, I don't know. I mean, with me, particularly, I approach carpet pythons in the sense that I believe that they're seasonal. I believe that they're just where they're from, which on a side note, yesterday I was watching a, I follow this YouTube guy who goes around and just, he's in Australia and he just really just, he collect. Well, he doesn't collect. He rescues snakes, I guess. And for people that have been there, you know, their garage and whatnot. And he goes and finds this beautiful coastal. Oh my gosh. And it was stuck in pallets. In pallets. It was outside and they all have jackets on and it's like windy as heck. And, you know, they're just, it's just so cold. And here's this carpet python just chilling in this palette on the sun and, you know, it was pretty neat. But anyway, I believe that the seasonal and I think that part of that, what I, what I do is, I feed them seasonally as well. So, yeah. Big push now, I start usually at the beginning of August and just kind of like really put the, put the, put the food to them and then come October, they shut off and then they don't eat again until they're heating back up in February. Yeah. The, the weird thing is for me though, is that, and I, I do the same exact thing, is that so many of my females did not breed last year. So nobody's really lost any of the weight that you would normally associate with breeding season. So like right now normally I'm like, normally I'm like, quick, you need your weight, get your food on. But now they just, they're just, some of them are already huge. What's the point? So. Right. Yeah. Crazy. I know. Well, if that perfect balance that they have to have of, you know, they have to have enough food and reserve in order to, you know, say, okay, well, I'm going to produce follicles and, you know, after talking with then many times about reproduction of pythons and whatnot, I just, you know, it just makes sense to me that, like, for the longest time you heard, you know, don't feed your snakes. Don't, you know, I'm going to be too fat, but I think with females, I guess they can be too fat, but they can be too fat, but obviously I'm not following that. Well, but the thing is that, however healthy you think your females are, the second they have eggs, the day after they have their eggs, you look at them and you're like, oh my God, I'm killing it. Because they're just so thin. I mean, they're basically deflated balloon. So, I mean, when that's something you got to think about is that they do lose a lot of weight when they have eggs or why. You know what's even worse? What's even worse is when you do maternal incubation, you want to see death on, on. Well, now I'm going to explain it. Oh, my goodness. Not death on legs. You don't have legs. Yeah. I mean, but on you know, there's some animals that will eat while they're gravid and there's some animals that will eat while they're sitting on a pile of eggs. Every animal is different. If you have one of those animals, that's awesome. My female pixie eight of a week before she dropped eggs. So, I think she ate and I'm thinking, oh God, she's eating, there's no way she's gravid. I've just been like fooling myself and then she lays a bunch of eggs and I'm like, all right, well, never mind. So, it's sometimes they throw a loop for you. Throw you for a loop. So, basically, I've just been feeding like normal into this August except for the female, the two females that I had that actually had eggs. They're getting a little extra, but all the other girls are doing normal because they, again, they haven't lost that. They haven't lost that much weight. If any. So, we'll see either I'm going to get like, you know, 50 eggs out of these girls or, you know, I don't know. I'm kind of hoping for a better year than last year. I'm a little intrigued and a little nervous because I'm breaking in a new room again. So, yeah, that always changes. Changes everything, but very cool. Well, let's stop or ramble in and let's get out. And get the show going. Hey, Travis, welcome to Morel, you play on radio. How you doing? I'm doing well enough yourself. We're doing great. We're surviving. So, Travis, why don't you give us a little bit of background on yourself? How long you've been into reptiles and what kind of brought you to it, stuff like that? Well, like probably most people in Perps, I got started at a really young age by just finding something out and about. I was four years old in preschool and I found a garter snake in the playground. Took home for a couple, three days, then had to let it go. I still have that complete memory. I know somewhere I drew a picture of it, which is probably working in some scrapbook of my mother's waiting to come back and haunt me, but. After that. And it will, it will. Yeah. It's really very forward. Oh, yeah. So. After that, it was just, you know, it was all downhill. I've, you know, spent most of my childhood catching garter snakes. I had a big field across the street from my house. I was always out there flipping rocks flipping logs about a mile away. There was a rock outcropping that was populated by a bunch of Western fence lizards. So I'd be pouncing on them whenever I could continue to like that up through junior high high school picked up my first true captive bread snake when I was 14. And in a storm 24 years ago, I still have the cantankers sold son of a bitch. Excellent. So, all right. And then did you kind of just keep that one or did you kind of shift off into some other guys. I've, I've screwed around with just about everything. Okay. I mostly do snakes. That's where my main interest is. I've got balls now, mostly because they have, you know, they have a lot of genetics to play with. So it's. It's a way that my own studies have carried through into my. I'm actor, but I've got a condo. I've got a blackhead. I've got a pair of alternatives. I've got a hug nose. You know, I've dabbled in lizards. I've got a. African fat tail and the knob tail that are normally my daughters, but we all know what that's like. It's not your child's and you end up taking care of it. Well, at least again, you know, at least you know where you're at and where you stand with it and you're good. So. Yeah, I've done frogs. I kept salamanders for a while. We used to catch those in our pond. So I've dabbled them just a little bit of everything but snakes are the constant throughout. Okay. And what pushed you to get involved with genetics? Genetics is just, you know, I guess it kind of evolved from, you know, my love of science, my love of biology, my love of nature. Like I said, as a kid, I was out flipping rocks, always into something, bugs, snakes, drugs, toads, whatever. The more I got into it, the more I wanted to know about it. So I started focusing my studies on it. The more I started studying it, the more I thought about where my career would go. If I wanted to stay in biology and I kind of reasoned that in biology, it's easier to move upward than it is to move downward. So if I emphasized in genetics, then I could go anywhere in the fields of biology. I could stay in genetics or I can move up a level to microbiology or cellular biology, or I can move up a couple of levels to, you know, broader biology or animal biology, veterinary medicine, things like that. So I just looked at genetics as the ground floor that I could go anywhere from, rather than if I went into pre-med, it'd be harder to slide down to something a step or two below, because you've got to hyper specialize out from there. I ended up staying in genetics just because there's so much going on in the field of genetics that every day there's something new and something fascinating. It's a new genome, a new discovery. How to eat clusters of genes that lead to autism, solid black chickens inside and out where their organs are black, their tongues are black, everything is black. There's always something new and different in genetics, so it just hooked me that way and that's what it's kept me at. Genetics was one of those very interesting classes in college, so I could see how somebody could get absolutely hooked into it. So, very cool. Now, obviously in the reptile community, we kind of have a basic understanding of genetics, and we use a lot of the terminology wrong. So, is it right if we go through some of the terms right now and you kind of give us an example of each and kind of explain how each one works or what the hell it is, kind of straighten that up. It's really easy to start with the one is, you explain a recessive trait to us. A recessive trait is where for a phenotype to be present with your mutation, you need to be homozygous. So both copies of the gene have to be present for you to see the mutant phenotype. There's no visual hit with these. That term gets thrown around a lot, and I hate nuts, but there are no visual hits with recesses. The most classic example of this, you can see it everywhere, all the different snakes that people keep, but other things too. Koalas, kangaroos, birds is albinos. Albinos are a recessive trait. Albino allele and one wild allele, you look like a wild type animal. Albinos, you've got the pink eyes, the white. If you've got other pigment systems involved, those ones come to the front. With carpet pythons, with ball pythons, you get the yellows that come through. With corn snakes, you get them through. Other ones that we see, most of the azanthic types that we see in reptiles tend to be recessive. Most of the hypos that we see tend to be recessive, not all of them. Now, this is one that I know is kind of odd. Incomplete dominant, or I think the word they kick around a lot is codom, and is codom even an actual term? Codom is an actual term. So, we are that far off. So, what is incomplete dominance and what is a codom? Incomplete dominance is where, if you have one copy of the gene, there is a dominant phenotype. In the simplest terms, if your animal has one copy of the gene, there is a phenotype, and it's expressed roughly 50% of the time, if you breathe it out. That phenotype is incomplete, because when you have two copies of the gene, that is the complete phenotype. The single gene carrier is that tightly banded zebra banded animal, and when you get copies of the gene, it's the solid yellow snake. Your incomplete form is the tight bands. Your complete form is no banding at all because it's a solid yellow snake. So, would that also apply to Jaguar in carbon python, even though the complete form ends in a lethal white gene? Yes, it would apply to Jaguar. It's an incomplete form. The complete form just happens to be lethal. So, that's your incomplete dominance. So, everything we've been calling codom so far has been incomplete dominant. What the hell is it codom? Okay, codominate is, it's used to apply to dominant genes, dominant alleles, interact amongst themselves. So, I guess the starting point for this would be to define what a dominant trait is. Which is the next one, because I wanted to skip ahead and we can do that too. Yeah, that might make it easier. So, a dominant trait is one where the heterozygous form and the homozygous form have the exact same phenotype. So, one copy of the mutant gene, two copies of the mutant gene, they both look identical. The same. Okay. Now, with a codominate, the best example for this is actually blood types and humans. Okay. You have two different dominant types. You have A. Now, the genotype for A can be either AO, which is your heterozygote, or AA, which is your homozygous. And you have the same thing with B, BO or BB. Okay. So, AO and AA, you look A, B, O, B, B. If you bring A and B together, you're AB. Okay. A and B are codominate to each other. The two different dominance are codominate with each other. They're both equally expressed dominantly when paired together. AA. Okay. That actually makes a lot of sense. All right. So, we got that. Is there anything Python-wise, whether it's a ball Python or any kind of Python or any kind of reptile that is codominate? Yeah. I have not found anything in the hobby that would absolutely be codominate. The closest that we have would be in ball pythons with the spider morph and the blackhead morph. They're alleles of the same gene. They're both incomplete dominant, though. But when you come together, they act in what could be interpreted as sort of a codominate type of manner. So, I don't know how familiar you are with the blackhead morph, but the spider morph is basically the equivalent of a jag. Yes. So, you know, with the spider morph, you have a massive one in the black pigmentation and overexpression of the gold. The blackhead is sort of the inverse. You have overexpression of the black pigmentation and patterning and reduction in the gold. And when you pair them together, one blackhead, one spider gene in the same animal, the animal looks, the combination looks basically like a wild type. And that's because each mutation is sort of the opposite of the other. The spider is the up tuned, the blackhead is the down tuned. So, when you bring it together, you're expressing up against down equally and you zero out. Right. You kind of even out a little bit, you eat in the middle or something like that. Right. So, you could look at that kind of like a codominate, but like I said, ultimately, it's not because both of those also have a super form. You've got the super blackhead, which is even more expressed with the dark and less expressed with the gold, and then obviously the spider super spider is lethal the same way super jag is lethal. Holy crap, we've been doing it so wrong for so long. Anyway, um, wow. That makes a lot of sense. I would never thought the blood type thing, but go ahead, Eric. I have a, I have a question. This is sort of about the recessive thing. And I guess I have two examples of what. When you, when people say, I know you said you want to punch people in the head when they say visual markers or. Well, is that, is that not really recessive then, because I think of like pie ball. Is that a legit thing or is. Yeah. Yeah, those situations are what they are. I have taken to calling them cryptic incomplete dominance. Okay, they are incompletely dominant. I like with pie ball, I think what it is is, you know, you hear people talk about markers and stuff all the time. And the way I view it is if the marker is stable, if it's something that you can pick out 100% of the time. Now granted, it may, it may take a sharper eye and working with that morph for a while. Yeah, if it's there, if you breed to, you know, headpides together and get your 66%ers, if you can look at your 60 centers and point to them and go that one and that one or head and that one is not. And consistently do that. That marker, that's your visual head. Now, it may be really, really subtle, which is why I've taken to calling them cryptic, but it's there. Yeah, right. I think with Pied, everybody called it recessive. Again, it's super subtle, but we were bringing into visual Pieds and people would just bring them out to a wild type and get these animals that were so close to wild type that they. They kind of fell into what we would call the range of variation for normals back then. But if you look at something like, you know, the specter ball Python, or some of these other really cryptic type ones, yeah, people sort of stumbled upon those by looking for something that was just a little bit different, a little bit outside the norm. And breeding it and showing, yeah, it consistently throws babies that are a little bit outside. And then when you put them together, you get a super form. So, I think if the situation were reversed, like if somebody brought in a wild super straight and bred it out to a normal, those animals would have looked so close to normal that they probably would have been called normals. Some respecter classes are recessive instead. But because it went the opposite way, people, you know, we hit a point where people were looking for just the slightest difference all the time for everything. They said, so many things got called incomplete dominant now that back then might have been called recessive and some of the things were said, you know, like you said, pie ball is one. I hear a lot about people saying all of the visual, all the, excuse me, all of the heads for clown are visual. You know, I don't have enough experience with those I haven't even really looked at clown heads but if it's something that's consistently stable if you could always pick them up a clutch. Yeah, clown isn't really a recessive. It would also be a cryptic and complete dominant. But again, because the visual clown came in first and it got bred out and the heads fell into that wild type range. It just got labeled recessive from the get go. Gotcha. Okay. Yeah, because in carpets we sort of have this with the exam. Where the heads sort of have a certain look to them. Now, I don't know if that's across, you know, like it's consistent and I said it would be, you know, incomplete dominant. But I know from people that have bred them, they do have a certain look to them. Almost like they almost, like, you know, I mean, it's like the hat kind of looks exam. Then when you, you know, you breed it and make an exam tick, it like kicks it up a notch, which is kind of. So, okay. Sorry, Owen. Okay, you know, you'll interrupt me eight more times. It's okay. Anyway, the next one is polygenic. I know we refer to polygenic a lot in carpets when it comes to. Sorry. Explain what a polygenic is and in genetics. So polygenic is just a phenotype that is a result of multiple genes coming together. So, I mean, there's a lot of things, you know, the tiger is a great example, like you said, you know, they're striping there. And you've got, you know, various degrees of striping now through selective breeding. You've refined so that all those cluster of genes that give rise to striping, you start selecting more and more of them into one animal. And you get animals that are deeply striped. And you can line, breed that up with, you know, almost anything, you know, you see it with high contrast albinos and ball pythons. It's sort of a secondary effect. The high contrast genes are getting selected for more by accident, just because people like a higher cost albino. But you breed a high contrast albino to a normal. Those head babies are going to tend towards high contrast themselves, even though they're wild type, because you've enriched those high contrast genes in there. So that high contrast trait is polygenic. Okay. So when it comes to the difference between a polygenic gene and some, an animal that is line bread, is there a specific break between the two, or they kind of go hand in hand. They kind of go, well, in the hobby, they kind of go hand in hand. A white bread trait is going to be polygenic. Most of the time. Okay. Yeah, you can, you can get polygenic traits in the wild. That's not really line bread. That comes down to more, you know, your selective pressures in the wild based on the environment or something like that that's going on. Okay. But yeah, in cap the line breeding for things is your polygenic traits. Okay. So when it comes to line breeding, I'll use the jungle carpet python as an example. When does the phenotype become so predictable that it can be called something as like called genetic like eventually jungle carpets that eventually were in the United States didn't look like the jungle carpets we have today. So eventually they were line bread so much so that they're now jungle carpets are generic yellow and black always. And I guess the simplest answer is, at all points it would be considered genetic, but okay for it to be. Or considered characteristic of the morph. Yeah, or the animal, yeah, would be when it breeds. And there is a little bit of a caveat on that. Like you said, all basically all jungles in the US now are going to bleed a breed black and yellow because that's what all of the selection is for we basically purged out all of the genes. That's really black and yellow. But the only applies because we've got this essentially closed group in the United States of jungle carpet pythons. If you brought, you know, if we could suddenly get wild type animals out of Australia tomorrow and you started bringing them in, you've read a wild type jungle into your US foreign jungles. Offspring probably would have a high degree of black and yellow. They're not going to have the same degree of black and yellow that you would get if you bred two US boards together. Okay. And when you get like dog breeds, I guess is another way to look at it. Yeah, you know, each dog breed is the result of line breeding. And it's their polygenic. So if you have labs, as long as you're breeding labs to labs, they're going to look like labs. Right. But if you breed a lab to a German shepherd, what you get out of that, it's not going to look like a lab. Right. It's going to look like a German shepherd. It's going to have traits of both. Okay. You can take those lab German shepherd puppies and breed them back to each other or breed them to other lab German shepherd puppies. And essentially create a feed by selecting for a specific subset of traits that you always see from those type of puppies. Okay. Or you can then breed back to either parent and push it back to where it came from. But that first breeding, you know, you're no longer breeding true there because you're outside of your group. Okay. So after how many generations until you can call something like that would be predictable, because I would imagine if we were breeding normal jungle carpets and something came out bright yellow and black, wouldn't that just be labeled as a more for something? I mean, when do you eventually just call it as it being a predictable color and pattern with the species? How many generations? It's going to depend. Okay. There's no real set answer. It depends on, you know, how many genes are involved in those traits, whether those genes are in complete dominant recessive. I mean, if you're dealing with 30 genes to get that black and yellow and all of them are recessive, it's going to take a lot of work to get an animal that basically carries all 30 recessive gene pairs. And if you're just dealing with four or five dominant or incomplete genes, you know, you could probably knock that out in two or three seasons of very careful breeding. Okay. And I mean, obviously, we've gotten to this point with the jungle carpet python and then we've taken it a few steps further. And we've added it to things like the Jaguar. And if you breed it to a jag, you're going to get some bright yellow or kind of jags. I mean, would that really have been predictable? Or would you kind of kind of taken that into account? Or is that just kind of like a holy crap? Look what happened kind of a situation. It's somewhat predictable. Okay. Again, it's going to depend on the nature of the genes, but you can think of it, you know, like I said, if you've got, you know, just for giggles, we'll say that there's four genes involved, they give that black and bright yellow jungle carpet python. We'll call them dominant for incomplete dominant and one of them is recessive. Okay. Now, odds are with the jungle carpet python population, you've got animals that are basically homozygous for all of those traits. Because you've just been selecting for them over and over and over again over time and you breed it to a jet, even though the jag population doesn't carry those specific alleles. You're still pushing basically three dominant genes in to that jag jungle crop. So immediately there, you put three bums for the yellow, so you would expect the offspring, yeah, to have more yellow. And the next step would be, well, then you breed those yellow jags back into carpet, or back into jungle, and you push for homozygosity across all of them again, and you're going to take the yellow of those first generations and you're going to up at another level in the second generation. Now, I know with the big thing is when jungle jags first started coming out, the first thing they did was they made them and they chucked them back to jungles to get the 88% of jungle blood to coastal blood ratio and they're all really kind of bright. Is there eventually a point with that kind of morph where it does plateau and you can't really get any more jungle influence within that animal or something like that. Yeah, I mean the point would be, like I said, again, depending on how many genes and the level involved, it's basically the point where you've got homozygosity of all of the genes, you've enriched all of the genes in there that you can. Now, I mean, there's going to be a little bit of fudge factor because every gene isn't like a perfect light switch. It's not just on or off. Sometimes it's on a little bit more because of the way normally unrelated genes are reacting and things like that. But you will eventually, yeah, you'll hit a plateau point where your degrees of yellow that you're increasing are in the fractional percentages rather than this animal, you know, sort of the beige yellow, and I took it to yellow yellow, and then I took it to bright yellow, and then I took it to high lighter yellow. That's the high lighter yellow, it's, you know, this one's slightly more high lighter yellow than that one, which is slightly less high lighter yellow than that one, and that slightly differences, but the peak form is just variable expression at the end. Okay, and now I know we touched on it briefly, and I do want to touch on it again because it seems to be one of those things is like a growing debate around it, and we can never escape it. And that's the lethal white gene in Jaguar. Can you explain just briefly what a lethal white, what is meant by a lethal white gene, because I do know it's another animals besides Jaguar carpet pythons and spider ball pythons and things like that. And is there any way around it, because there seems to be some people out there who were still clinging to hope that with certain breedings that they can get around it and have a full blown living super form of that animal. The lethal whites that we have, like you said, the JAG, the spider, those animals, they're a little bit than like lethal white that you see in horses and stuff. So it's based on the nature of the mutation. The lethal white and JAGs and spiders is, and this is speculation on my part, it's educated spacing. The pattern alterations that we're seeing are most likely related to distribution of melanocytes in those animals. It's not the fact that the melanocytes aren't being distributed with that problem. It's the fact that the system that distributes them also acts as a highway for other things, like the penetration of neurons into muscle tissues or the migration of stem cells for certain organisms to the right, or organs to the heart of the body. So if that highway is shut down, then things aren't going to get to where they need to get to. Now, the reason the JAGs and the spiders come out all white is, you know, when you've got one copy, your highway system is broken, but it's not going on. So you still get stuff pigmentation, but when the highway system is totally shut down, none of the pigment can travel through the animals, so they come out looking white. And that's why they're lethal and they're white. You've got other things in ball pythons. Kevin McCurley calls them pearls for the hidden gene Woma, or he says that he's created pearls with other companies. Yeah, I mean, it's the same type of thing. The super champagne ball python is also a pearl white animal. And again, it's because of something that's screwing up the distribution of pigment, and it's the transport system that would travel the pigment is supposed to travel other things. And it's those other things that make it lethal, let's think of it. Okay, the problem with, you know, the JAG, you're not, there's not really a way to fix it, because the mutation is inherent with this problem. So it's what gives the JAGs neuro issues and spiders neuro issues. You can't uncouple the problem, you know, it doesn't matter how the other morphs, you try and fold back into it to recover it. There is no mutation for fix the fact that this super animal does not have a lung. Or fix the fact that there's not have the nerve. There's no extra lung animal morph. I mean, crap. All right. That makes sense. All right. So I, my very educated opinion on the matter is, there will be no super JAG. There will never be a super spider. It's, it's lost cause and people just need to accept that you breed JAG to JAG. You're going to have a mortality for those supers, you know, they might make it a minute, an hour, a day, a week, but they're not going to have productive lives. Thank you. Okay, so we've done it. It's over. Stop asking us again. Do you get the same kind of kind of like, I don't know, for some reason with carpets. There seems to be people that cling to hope that somehow they're going to have the magic. The magic combination is the same thing happened with ball pythons or are they, or is that group pretty much accepted the fact that this doesn't work. So don't do it. We still see it in ball python. I mean, at least with, at least with carpet people, you guys have accepted that JAGs are neuro. It's just the way it is and that there is a super JAG and it's lethal with ball pythons. There's a substantial subset of the ball python hobby that does not believe super spider is lethal. Wow, they think that spiders just a dominant trait and a super, it looks identical to a spider. But there are people who pass out these dead white things explain the dead white things that showed up where they come from and people just take their flukes. Oh, of course, people say that there are lines of spiders show no neuro issue and my response to that is the exact same one that Ralph Davis gave if you think your spiders not neuro you're not paying attention to your spider enough. It doesn't mean they're all doing with JAGs. Yeah, it's probably the same thing you see with JAGs as far as they show it when they're stressed or, you know, some might not have it for a long time and then all of a sudden it kicks in and they all have. Yeah, and I, you know, JAGs are a little, carpets are a little bit more diagonally active. So you guys probably see the little tweaks and stuff during the day. Ball pythons are a lot more doctrinally active and my guess is most ball python owners and breeders aren't sitting around looking at their snakes in the tubs at, you know, 11, 12 o'clock in the morning to when the snake is out moving. When you open your tub at two o'clock in the afternoon and your snake is basically asleep, huddled up in the back on its heat spot. Of course it's not showing neuro moving around it. And then all of a sudden it'll flip itself over. And, you know, all of the neuro type. I mean, there's a lot of ball pythons that have some kind of neuro tweak. I would, I would not be surprised when the slightest of hidden gene, Woma has it. Nobody talks about it, but it wouldn't surprise me. The sable morph is supposed to have it spot nose. I have been told has it. And again, it's, you've got to watch when it happens. You know, I've got a Woma ball python who she saw it as a rock almost all night, but if I went up and looked in her tub right now, she'd be sitting there with her head cocked completely sideways, probably leaning on her water bowl. Wow. She only does it at night. When she's like looking around and stuff, she like gets to the water bowl and just flips her head up against it and then sits there like that for a while. And then gets back to normal. And one of her granddaughters that I have every time I open the tub, the first thing she does is just a quick corkscrew. And then she's back to normal. Right. But so I always get one corkscrew. I had no idea. It was in, it was in so many other morphs of ball python other than a fighter. I thought that that was going to be unaffected. Oh, and you're not paying attention. Hold on, wait, let me go look at my ball python collection. I'll be back. I'm back. Nothing happened. I have a question. And before we get into, we do have a question from a listener, but we'll hit that when we get into the condros. But when you see, you see, like, you take the spider, okay, two different species, same type of mutation. So is it possible that the same mutations that you see in ball pythons that you could see in other pythons? Yeah, I mean, it wouldn't surprise me at all. I mean, yeah, JAG and spider may actually be the same gene. Now I have seen, I can't remember if it was a JAG to a wild type ball, or if it was a spider to a wild type carpet. But somebody did that hybrid and it didn't look exactly like I had expected, but it looked close enough for me to say, yeah, I leave that they're the same mutation. Somebody did spider to JAG and they got this one baby that I think was alive. And I think all it did was like narrow its way across its tub or something like that. It was, from what I know, it was horrific. So I don't know whether or not that was that, but I do know they combined the genes a little bit or tried to combine them. And they worked together to make some weakles and some horribleness. I think too, too, when you look at like, I think of blood pythons, you have a batik and you have super batik. So batik has this crazy, cryptic pattern similar to what you've seen in zebra. And then when you breed a zebra to zebra, you get a patternless snake. When you breed a too up to teak, you get a patternless blood python. So I don't know, I just see like these little things that pop up and it seems to work the same way, same type of pattern, maybe a little bit different, I guess. But so. Yeah, and those are definitely possibilities again. And one, like one that would be an absolute. And I have gotten in so many arguments with people on forums about this. The albino gene. If it's a tree mill in a stick albino, so a T negative albino. Right. And that mutation is an absolute if it's T minus, it's T minus and it doesn't matter what it is. So if I take an albino ball python and breed it to an albino Burmese python and an albino carpet python and, you know, what's something else that I can't even remember everything they've bred ball pythons too. But albino blood python. As long as the blood, the Burm and the carpet are also T minus, then your hybrids are all going to be albinos. They're not going to be double heads. They're not going to be weird wild type looking things. They will all turn out albino. Now again, that is making the assumption that we're dealing with true T minus albinos in all of these cases and with, you know, things like blood, python and Burmese python. There's a sub, there's so many different weird albinos there that maybe kind of like lavender ball pythons. They're pretty close to looking kind of white, but not the same. You know, sharp and call straight albinos and boas. Both of those, it's hard to tell which one of those is the T minus. I'm sure one of them is, but the one is just a really extreme T plus type. But if you've got two T minuses, then you're going to get T minus hybrids out of it. Wow. Okay, that's, that's interesting. I hope everybody doesn't go and breed there. They're albinos together. I'm not saying everybody should do it. I'm just saying it is possible. That's, that's, that was, this is for a moment. Yeah, I got it. It's about whether or not they could. They didn't think about whether or not they should. I'm just saying you could. With the backlash on Morelia Python, radio be that bad if everybody started doing it, that we would get blamed for starting this crazy friend. So, good big. I got a question. Brand didn't wiggle her. The question is, he says, what kind of difference has, have you seen in the health of a three or 14 clutch compared to say a single gene clutch. So I guess he's asking if the more genes you pack on, is there any kind of detriment to. Honestly, depends on maybe the gene. Yeah, it's going to depend on the genes. Yeah, I'm, I'm quite surprised sometimes with ball pythons that we managed to stack as many genes on top of each other as we without hatching out complete and total train wrecks all the time because. You know, when you're reckoned five, six, seven different sets of genes, that's kind of crazy. But there are some cases where it causes problems. You know, if you breathe spider chain, you get a lethal animal there. Now, there are some people who believe that that's because spider and champagne are allelic. You know, Nick mutton is of that opinion. And that's a possibility. You know, I wouldn't deny it, but at the same time. There are ways that we can check and prove that it could just be that spider. We know has problems champagne. We know has problems. So when you take a problem A and problem B and put them together. We get a train wreck and it dies. So, depending on which way it works out, it could be either of those situations. You know, there are other, you know, combinations that I wouldn't be surprised to find the same thing happens. So it depends on the gene is, I guess, the answer there. Sometimes, though, if you're just dealing with problems, you know, so albino with a xanthic with hypo with caramel, you know, usually things like that aren't hyper essential. So, okay, you're not causing something that's going to cause massive bodily harm. But there could still be some repercussions. I mean, while obviously a shock white snake wouldn't do too well in the wild. If you had a albino is at the kypo. In the captivity, it's not going to be doing too well because, you know, with a complete lack of all pigmentation. It's susceptible to things. I have noticed over time, old snakes will get, you know, strange things that you associate with a cataracts and tumors and things. But I have, you know, albinos will get cataracts sooner than a wild type snake will. And that's because with no pigmentation in their eye, they have less protection to their eyes. So, even though it's, you know, if it's corn snake it's just getting fluorescent light most. That's still enough light that over time, it's accumulating damage to the eye, which causes them to cataract up faster. Okay, so that explains, I do know that albino alligators at their certain point have been said to go blind. I guess that could just be the damage to their eyes and forming of cataracts and stuff with that. So, yeah, that's, you know, with alligators there, those are generally kept outside because they're so exactly, they're getting full dose UV radiation from the sun with nothing to protect them. I have heard the adult albino alligators that we're seeing are also starting to get skin cancer lesions for the same. They don't have any pigmentation in their body so they're getting sunburned, which has been developing constantly and forms up into skin cancers. Because, you know, what I want is a, you know, a blind pissed off alligator coming at me. I want 12. All right. All right, so another, for this year, for some reason, it seems to be the carpet python year of the chimera. And I know we've talked about it a couple of times on the show and totally messed it up. Oh, dear Lord. Can you tell us exactly what's going on? What is a chimera? What is, what's going on with that? A chimera is one animal that has two separate genotypes. And funny enough, I just had this exact same conversation with Nick. Hopefully what happens is, you know, when the embryos are forming in the mother. Sometimes cells from one developing embryo will break off and migrate to another or sometimes the two developing embryos will fuse. The cells then get shuffled around. So it's part embryo one and part embryo two. There are even rare cases where some of the cells will integrate into the embryo. So the baby then is part its own mother. But it's two different genetic, two genetically different animals in one body. And it can be real mild and small, which, you know, can account for like animal that's, you know, mostly jagged with a like a thumbprint sized wild type pattern on it. You know, that could just be because one cell from its sibling managed to get into that embryo and just that one cell generated that one small patch of normal tissue. And the rest of the jaguar animal, or it can be an animal that's half jaguar, half normal or half zebra, half normal because you got a full fusing of two embryos. And the cells just got all shuffled up like you put them in a blender. They all came back together in one day animal. So with that thinking, technically, could you have, well, let me ask you this, what if it was an animal that was supposed to be a hit could there could be a possibility could or could not be hit for say albino. Yeah. And this is, this is one of these things with, you know, chimeric and, you know, paradox type animals that that can get to be Romeo's territory. You know, a lot of times we see it in ball pythons you get this animal that looks like, you know, half albino and half normal. It's just got patches of albino all over it. Most of the time those yeah they come out of het type breedings. And that could be because your animal is suffering from a different condition or could be because it's a paradox animal or chimeric animal. And if the tissue that makes up the gonads, the ovaries or the testes is wild type tissue, then it's going to breed like a wild type. Oh, my God. So, now you have the tissue fucking animal. And just correct me for a moment, you'd have this crazy funky looking animal. And it has the same pack, like, takes back the same punch as a wild type animal. Oh, my God. That would suck. That can create kind of that can create kind of area there. If people are like, man, I'm going to breed this and it's going to be the coolest thing because it's going to do this and that and the other. Well, you know, it might or it might not. I mean, it might just make normal looking snakes. Oh, my God. I think it's a hit for albino because it's, you know, looks like 40, 50% albino. So it'll bring it to albino like it was a hit. Yeah, you know, if the gonads are wild type, then it's just going to breed like a wild type all day long. Wow. That would suck. Okay. I think that's something that some people need to think of as they move forward with these kind of things. I mean, yeah, they look fantastic. They could turn for a curveball in the future. Wow. Okay. Especially if you're going to go babies and you're saying that, yeah, that could be. Oh, that could be Pandora's box. So with with paradox in particular. Again, something that seems to be happening all over the world of Morelia this past season. Is this something that's predictable or is this just something like so, for instance, when I say predictable, it's, it's. If you have a certain pair and you pair them up and they throw a paradox animal. Could you in theory throw that pair together again long year and produce a paradox animal or is it just the luck of the draw? This is a delicate question. No. Okay. I do not know. There is there are a couple of strange morphs in bonds that look to be stable. Paradox forming animals. Okay. But I still think further investigation needs to go into them some. The nature behind what's causing it. The mutation that basically governs how your chromosomes get sorted. Within cells and stuff. So. Over the course of a couple generations that could have bad side effects where you're basically breeding sterile animals because the chromosomes are right as you're forming sperm and egg in the animal. Because if you can't sort your chromosomes right in the cellular level and that's why some of your cells look normal and some of them look albino and some of them look fire and some of them look black eyed. Lucy. That could be the basis there. So it's something to watch for. But outside of those couple of strange morphs and ball pythons, I do not know of any case where paradoxing is stably terrible. Now you may have a pair that costs attention, but my guess would be the reason it's doing that is because one of the animals in that pair. Again has some type of genetic issue going on. Yeah. And that's what's that's what's contributing to it. Okay. So if I bread a paradox albino to a paradox albino, I may not get a clutch of paradox albinos. Or, you know, but then the flip side is you might because one of those paradox albinos. The parent of it. Could have that trait that the parent is stably throwing them out because they're something parent and they gave that same trait to their offspring to their offspring can do it too. But there's no guarantee there. Oh my God, you could breed a paradox albino to a paradox albino and get nothing but normal carpal part. Oh my God, genetics is a. All right. Well, this is wow. That's what makes it fun. No, I mean, this is great. So one of the things that I wanted to talk about was you I sent us an email about this specific question, but me, you know, we're talking in a while back this crazy looking diamond python popped out of a clutch and it came from a. Those pattern diamonds, and I'm not sure if it's reduced pattern to reduce pattern, but it's this pie ball looking thing that was produced by he's in Canada's names Michael Islam. And my question was, is it possible for a morph to be produced when neither animals are gene carriers? I guess, meaning, what are the chances of something like a pod or something like that type of gene like that just popping out randomly. It can happen. Okay, just the statistical odds of it happening randomly are extremely low. Especially in like something like a pod where, again, depending on where you fall in the spectrum is pipe recessive or is pied the the super form of a cryptic incomplete dominant where you get that. Basically home is I guess visual out. That, that is almost exterior to the point of not possible. I'm not going to say impossible, but it's, it's highly improbable. Just naturally occurring now if there's something that could induce the mutation, you know, if the parents have been exposed to chemicals or if the mother was exposed to such as incubating is that damaged the developing fetuses. That could cause, you know, a visual animal to come up, but again, when you do something like that, it doesn't tend to just hit one spot. You're going to be kind of damaging what your patch of the overall. So you tend kind of more chaos going on across the whole clutch. You know, if you, if you run a mother through an x ray while she's carrying eggs. It's really not good for the eggs. You're damaging all of the eggs and I've heard people doing it and the entire clutch, because basically barbecue inside of mom while they were developing. Ouch. Yeah. If the mute, if the mutagen is at a low enough insult, then yeah, you can hatch something weird out. Okay. Painous mutations, the most likely dominant or incomplete dominant just has one small nick in one copy of the gene, but not in the other copy. And it gets expressed because it's a dominant earning complete dominant type. So you'll see one just randomly pop out. And again, it tends to be a one off. You don't tend to have the weird thing that weird mutation happened four or five times in a clutch. So if you breed something and you pop out four or five animals with a new phenotype. Odds are that your parents are carrying the genes. If you read something and one thing pops out different. That could be spontaneous. Or yeah, the parents could both be hit for a recessive trait that you couldn't see. Or their head, you know, they're incomplete dominant. And you didn't know it. And now you're seeing a super full. And the little that I've seen about the reduced patterns is does ten travel at least in a dominant type manner where if you breed a reduced pattern to a normal diamond. About half of your collection is going to look reduced pattern. Yeah, that was, you know, my couple of minutes just looking at that topic first came up and I haven't got deeper into the reduced patterns. Okay, so what are your thoughts? Do you think that that? I mean, again, just your educated guests. Do you think that that is a piebald or do you think that that is a chimera or what were your thoughts on what's going on with that. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to caveat here that this is pure speculation and I really don't want to have all of the Morelia community coming after me tomorrow saying that genetics super for excited. This wasn't that bad. You know, you want these head. That may have been regardless, but yeah, at least I'm putting, I'm putting the qualifier here now so nobody can say that I didn't. It's okay. They want my head every day. Yeah, I mean they want my head every week so it's okay. It's normal. Looking at the animal, especially looking at it post shed. There are some things that could indicate that it could be a pie. You know, reduced pattern, you know, when you head for piebaldism and other animals, there tends to be a slightly altered patterning in them. Right. So you see that sort of disruption in it. So I could see that as being a potential. The original culture, it almost looks like both of the animals in the center there. Maybe showing the trait, but it's hard to tell if what I'm seeing is really just that first animal flip flopped underneath itself. And the head of the second animals lying in such a way that it's not really what I'm seeing and I'm all the weird looking thing is the first animal and the first animal alone. But if there was more than one, again, I'd be inclined to say that you're, you're more likely for this to then be a true morph. On the other hand, also at that post shed picture, especially looking at the head and the way some of these areas are meeting up. Yeah. I have to consider the fact that it could be chimeric. You know, when I looked at pictures of neo. We tend to have that sort of more golden color to them, whereas the normal diamonds are that darker patterning. So if you look at the half of that animal, it almost looks like it's altering normal reduced normal reduced normal reduced, then you've got just a big chunk of something going on. And it's mostly normal towards the back with a little bit of that boost coming in. So it could be chimeric. And another thing about it that sort of weirds me in terms of pies is one of the five phenotypes is that you tend to see more of the pie ball of character towards the tail end as towards the head end. And in this animal, you've kind of got the flip flop. You're seeing more of the pie pattern, the pie expression and the disruption towards the head end. So, that aspect of it makes me think that this might just be weird fluke free typing. But gotcha. You know, there are indications that it could go either way. And as I mentioned in that email, really the best thing to do and always the best thing to do in these situations is bring it out, prove it out, because that's how you're going to find out. And, you know, I don't know what the sex of the animal is, but you got a couple of years, even if it's a male, because you guys don't tend to breed it, you know, six months of age to like all Python breeders do. No, no. But I know there are other people out there that have the reduced pattern diamonds. So, I would assume people can make the reduced pattern diamonds and start up and look for those clutches to produce similar things, because if, you know, person a pairs they were used in person be pairs that are reduced and person see pairs they're reduced and all three of those clutches also pop out something like this. The odds that everybody's getting the same where they should all side it out of nowhere is going to be going down. Right, right. Oh, I'm staring at my reduced pattern diamond right now as she's curled up. There's a way. Nice. Yeah, they're beautiful snakes. Okay. Another one that I wanted to hit on, in particular, before we do some condro talk is Ocelot Jack. Now, you know, I'll give this real quick for people that don't know what the Ocelot Jack is. This combo to date. Well, actually this year, it seems that the Ocelot was separated from the Jack. What happened with this is is that you had Mike Curtin, who was over here in the States, and then you had Paul Harris who was over there in the UK, and they both hatched out the same type of mutation. And basically, it's kind of like this crazy gives it this crazy linky pattern. You got like this peppering on the sides and, you know, you got like these Ocelots that come down in the saddles. So, until this year, it wasn't able to be separated from the JAG mutation. Is that something that is this just finally the odds just happened that it was produced where the Ocelot gene showed itself without the JAG? Did I ask that right? I mean, you know what I mean? Maybe. What you're describing sounds a lot like linkage. Okay, you have two settings, but they're so close to each other on the chromosome that they tend to move around together. So, when you've got, when you've got your, if you go way back to biology, if you remember meiosis, and how when the cells are dividing down to your gametes, you have the crossover events which cross chromosome rearrangements. Okay. Those happen randomly and, you know, if two gene far apart from one another, on the same, the odds are they're going to get separated because one of them is going to get transferred over to the sister chromosome when you're doing that crossover event and split apart. But if the closer the two genes get to each other, the odds that you get that chromosome arrangement that separates them is going to go down. The ocelot gene and the JAG gene are, you know, in proximity to each other, then they'll move around mostly as one. So your ocelot JAG will tend to for a lot of other ocelot JAGs, but there's still a point where you can event that separates them, and you will be able to produce then JAG that isn't ocelot, and the ocelot that isn't JAG. How can it happen at low frequency? Okay. Okay. Yeah, and when we talk about genes allelic, what does that, what's the technical definition for that? I think is basically different from the same gene. I don't know that you have too many of these in carpet. In fact, I don't know if you have any in carpet pythons. You see a ton of them in ball pythons. Again, ball pythons, they are the absolute genetic freaks of the reptile. You've got the blue eyed Lucy complex and the Lucy complex, the yellow belly complex where you have multiple mutations to the same gene, but each mutation is a little bit different. One of the ways that I've described this in the past is if you think of the Joan, but it's just a single string of, it's just a single string ace two, three, four, Jack Queen King, and it's only one suit. That's your wild type gene. If your normal suit is spades, then you change the spade into a heart. That's one mutation. You've got three spades and the three of hearts. Now you've got albino, the three of hearts is for albino, three of spades of wild type. If you look at the lesser ball python, and that's going to be the seven of us, but then you've also got Mojave, which is the seven of diamonds. And you've got phantom, which is the seven of clubs, and you have special, which is seven ampersand. Each mutation is different, but it's all at the same, it's of the same gene. It's just a different type of mutation and same gene. So some of them are going to be more extreme. Some of them are going to be less extreme. Okay. All right, that makes sense. Very cool. I do have another question that when we just started talking about that, the only thing that I could think of, and it's just my guess, that you have a caramel gene, and then you have this red gene. And they seem to sort of similar, a little bit different, but there's sort of have like this red hypoe look with the red gene and carpets, as they get older, they tend to lose that. Whereas the caramel seems to, you know, get more of this golden color, especially if it's super version of it. But you are starting to see that some of the red stuff is holding on to that look into adulthood. So my, and the reason I'm asking this question is because I'm working on a project in carpets, that's sort of my quote unquote dinker project is I have this melanistic IJ. And with this IJ, when they were born, they were normal looking babies. But as she aged, she gained melanin. So, I think of something like the IMG gene and boas. What is that exactly? Is that something that, I mean, is that, is that a recessive? What is that considered? Well, it's going to depend. It depends on how the gene just expressed and the nature of the mutation. So, right, it'd be a matter of how you bring it out. If half of her offspring show it, that's a dominant or an incomplete type trait. You bring her out and none of her offspring had it, but then you bring her offspring together and some of them show it, you're looking at a recessive. Right. And it's hard, it's hard to tell just off of an initial basis for that. I have a lot of breeding done into it. You can kind of try and look to animals and see what's out there that could correlate. Right. Because you see melanism in all kinds of, you know, a panther is a melanistic leopard or a melanistic jaguar. You have melanism in dogs and wolves and coyotes. You have melon cats, he has them in mice and rats. But in each of those cases, the melanism behaves differently. In dogs and wolves and coyotes, the melanism is a dominant trait. So, it's just a single gene and I give it a black. But in mice and rats, it tends to be recessive. In fact, there are multiple types of melanism, but they're recessive traits. So, I guess maybe the better question would be this. If, if it's something that's hatched, is that like a predictable trait? Not always. I just remember when I was talking to Nick, he was telling me that if it's something that happens like that, where they get it as the age, that's something that you really don't want. You know, because it's not as, maybe it's not as easily marketed, or maybe it's something that's not as easily as predicted to predictable. Um, yeah, it's not as easily predictable and it's not, it's probably not as easily to mark it. But, you know, if, if you can read it out, you know, how will you know if the baby's carrying what you'll have to hang on to him? And you know how long it's with your founder to color up. So you know how long you'll have to hold on to those animals to be able to tell. Okay, all of her offspring did this. So it's a dominant trait offspring, you know, half of her offspring did this. So it's a dominant trait. If I breed to a brother and I might get a super form or none of her offspring did this, I breed them back together and wait again another two, three, four years, and some of those babies get it as a recessive trait. And now you know the timeframe and you can start, then you could start marketing them. Okay, I took a melanistic animal and burned wild type. These are Hellenistic. But realize when you breed them together, you're going to have to hold on to them for, you know, a year or two years, or people are just going to have to buy with the understanding of, I don't know which one of these is going to melanize up. You might get the melody and it almost kind of falls into the chondro territory there, where people buy chondros, and you know you get this little red or yellow worm, and you don't know what the hell it's going to do. Because it's a red and yellow and you don't know what it's going to do. So, oh man, I hope I can sell them like you do chondros. Yeah, they just whirl up and be like, yeah, I want that one. That's the parents. Give me that. Yeah, but if I turn into a green snake. I don't care. Yeah, well. We did have a question in our chat room real quick and I didn't want to skip over it. Do you think that breeding for temperament is a real thing? Do you think that there are mean genes? Yes, I do think breeding for tent is a real thing. Actually, I know breeding for temperament is a real thing. There was a massive study done in Novavirsk, Siberia, and they've done it with fox and with rats, and I think it's still ongoing actually doing it since the six. They started with wild foxes and basically went both ways and they did the same thing with the rats. They go to the cages and, you know, the ones that are friendly and nice. They take out and they breed those and then the ones that are nasty and mean, they bring together and they keep doing this generation after generation after generation. And they now have foxes that are as cuddly and playful as you know your Jack Russell Terry poodle. Dumberman whatever's that you've got at home that will hop on your lap and be a lap dog. And they have foxes that you open the door to the shed where they live, where they're kenneled, and all of them just start going nuts for themselves against the walls of their cages trying to tear your face. Oh, no rats where you go and the cage and the rat comes over and snuggles you and rubs his face against your hand and wants to be affectionate. And then you have rats where if you put your hand in the cage and you're not wearing a heavy chainmail gauntlet, you will pull back a bloody stub because the rats in, you know, have been selected for aggression are insane. So, wow, yes, you can, you can breed for temperament now. You know, I've heard it argue reptiles totally different than mammals. Yes reptiles are different than mammals the same time. It's a selective pressure game that's we can use this selective pressure to push for, you know, the black and highlighter yellow jungle carpets. We can use this selective pressure to pick for more and more reduced patterning on things, you know, they're basically bread, you know, it's just had a hunter on. They've got a juggle that they've selectively bred to the point where it almost looks like a jag, but it's nothing. You know, yeah, you can select for visual traits that way. You can select for behavioral traits that way. It may take longer. Yeah, but you should be able to select. For a more docile type of animal. Right, or a more psychotic type of animal if you're that that's work. That's my mission. My mission is to read the most evil carpet pythons ever created. So, in a way, you've been doing that kind of thing. Again, we've been doing it with carpets. I mean, yeah, pythons are not normally rat eaters in the web. Right. You know, here in the US, you know, some people will tell you they have just a bit of a time Gaby's to start. But there are who have babies that will take rats for minute one. And, you know, we have got some bloodlines that, you know, the baby that takes a rat from the get go. Is the baby that's going to be more likely to grow and be up to breeding side and then be breeding next. So, if it's genes, whatever those genes are that make it prone to taking a baby rat right from the get go without bulking. It's going to pass those genes on to its offspring. And, you know, so we're starting to purify in the direction of animals that will take rats as a normal prey has instantly recognized them. As if looking for snakes as their first prey item. Right. I can agree with you 100% because I tell you what. The coastal clutches that I've had over the past three years. Or jungle clutches, which are more established in captivity in the United States. Boom, right away. Took food, no issues, no problems. But the. Oh, that's a whole other story. Which are not as established in the United States. So, yeah, I absolutely agree with you 100%. Awesome. So, go ahead, Owen. I know we mentioned a little bit ago about conjro genetics. And they seem to be very hit or miss in producing either, you know, a crazy high yellow, a melanistic blue one or a combination of them all or just a normal green snake out of the same clutch and the same parents and they're all red babies or yellow babies. Why do you think that it, this is the case when it's hard to peg down the green tree python genetics. Well, I think there's probably multiple factors involved. I think you're dealing one. The first is for years, they've been, you know, crossing all these different localities. Yeah, which now it's very, very much light that these are different species in some cases. Right. You're dealing with hybrid genetics here to an extent, which is going to throw a little bit of a curve in. Right. But even, you know, even in species, you have population genetics. So you've got pockets. And what comes with that is I think we've got. You've got in each of these animals, in each of these populations and each of these species, you can, you know, that. Because of their history evolutionarily is fairly robust and resistant to change. Okay. Well, and this is going to sound contradictory, so I may have to. Not just go for it. While, while the genome is rust resistant to change, it's. It has a lot of polygenetic capability. So you've got all of these things that could align to you. Yeah, give you a yellow. Okay. You've got to all of those gene you've, it's the yellow. It's, it's not a case of like I hypothesized with the jungle earlier where I said, you know, it's just four genes. We'll call it four genes and three of them are dominant. In this case, you're probably dealing with. A dozen or more genes. And not just a simple and then dealing in fashion. You know, recessive, dominant, good go happy. It's, if you have gene A in the presence of gene B in the absence of gene C. With a mutant copy of gene D, then you go. And if you have. But if you have that perfect combination, you're not going to see yellow. You know, and then the same thing with the blues. And. It's hard to purify those things because then you go back and fall into the linkage thing that I talked about with. You know, if A and B are not linked. B and, but A and C are linked. It's hard to unlink A from C in a position where you've got B. To, you know, pushing for it. So that's that, that robust, resistant genome comes from, even though you've got. Of possibilities to choose from to get it all lined up right. Is really difficult because there's just so much variability across the genome that more pushes towards a default no state. Okay. In my head, but it's harder to articulate. Okay, that's the night. I get it. So. Do you think it is a pretty good possibility that the reason we're seeing such crazy phenotypes is simply because. All the chondros are most of the chondros in the country are crosses or hybrids and. What we're seeing is more of like an incomplete kind of recessive gene melting pot in the chondros when it comes to traits. Yeah, I guess, like with a lot of the. For what they call the designer chondros. Yeah. Yeah, I think you see a lot of that crazy stuff because yeah, they're. They're, they're, they're hybrids or their crosses between populations. And each population individual. You know, has. Has got an evolutionary history that they've. Sort of purified their genes from what works best for that little local environment that they have. And then you cross and you know, you cross one population with another population. The genes impugified for each population are different. And so you're going to see. In some cases conflicting expressions because what works here doesn't necessarily work there. What works for the high elevation isn't necessarily work for the low elevation doesn't really work for the heavier vegetation versus the lighter vegetation. So you get, you get a mishmash of different genes and that's what gives you that crazy variability. Okay. Makes sense so. Is there any other reptile off the top of your head that fits in that category. No, like, like the, like the condos where they come out. Certain color or, or they, as they mature, just you have no idea what the hell they could turn into. To an extent. Yeah. You know, it goes sort of. You know, they. They can be. Hit or miss with what you get now. Crusted geckos seem to turn over so fast with their generation times that I think. You know, the, the variability that we're starting to see us to get goes through selective breeding. I think that same level is available with condos. Right. But, you know, you've got, you've got a longer generation time with condos because it takes. You know, again, takes two, three, four years before you can start breeding a conduit or you can start flipping crested gecko at the end of the year. In cases. So. You know, you get these different. How come you can shake out between them. Right. Right. In terms of pocket genetic type things. Brave ended kings. Yeah. Those are, you know, a great example, you know. Each location of gray band has got its own kind of traits and characteristics. Yeah. And banding and stuff like that. Pins striping. That you can. You know, if you breed between them, you know, the gray bands aren't. Quite as pure amongst themselves are even together, you just, you start getting sort of homogenous looking butts. But at the same time you get some crazy stuff. I mean, those weird zigzag. Backs, those are. Genetically, they're generics. They're a mix of a bunch of. Ones, you've got the. One of their instead of being great. Gray, they're more of a tawny. Color. Right. They get so that, you know, that comes from mixing genetics between different populations the same way people are mixing between different populations. Sure. And it's weird is that you're talking about populations of gray bands where sometimes those different pockets are like only separated by like a road or something like that. I mean, like they're right on top of each other. But, you know, it seems like, you know, well, it's just a road. Exactly. When you think about the, you know, yeah, it's just a road to us and we can jump to road, but, you know, we can see the car coming and we can outrun the car in those cases. Plus the car isn't trying to run us over in most cases. Right. Right. Yeah. I think, I think a question would be like, why in some species of Python, are you seeing, you know, like you take the ball Python, for example, you see so many different morphs in that species. Whereas in other pythons, you really don't see that same type of thing. Is it just a, is it just the influx amount of animals that are coming into the United States and the amount of people that working with them. Does that have something that that may have something I'm more inclined to think that that that actually more goes back to the natural environment. You know, ball pythons. Have a pretty big range. And it's not. There isn't a lot of selective pressure on that range. So, I mean, yeah, there's, there's some degree of selective pressure on them. So evolution has driven them to a certain point, but. There's a lot of flexibility in where they live, how they get around that, you know, a lot of the puns of wild vitals and mutations out of the wild with ball pythons will think about where ball pythons live in the wild. They live in the bottom of a termite mountain, most of the year. So when you're living in the bottom of a termite mountain, it doesn't matter if you're brown and tan, white and yellow. Striped bed. Web pad. I mean, you could be neon blue for all that mattered because you're in a hole in the ground and nothing can see you down there. Right. Underneath something that's got the thickness of concrete. So yeah, I mean, you're, you're good. So, you know, when you then look at the condo environment, it's a much higher. Selective pressure in it that the pressures are a lot stricter. So, you know, an albino chondro is going to stick out like a sore thumb. Right. You know, yeah, right. The albino chondro is bright yellow. Right. When you're yellow and six inches long, you know, you can curl up against, you know, a mushroom that's yellow or a bromeliad flower that's yellow or an orchid that's yellow, and you can hide because you blend in when you're only six inches long or eight inches long. But when you're two and a half feet long and bright yellow, you're not blending in anymore because, you know, a little yellow orchid flower. Yeah, fine. That looks normal. A gigantic yellow orchid flower. That look right. Yeah, behavior rate of I'm going to just set out on this in a tree among the leads. Now you've just got a yellow splash in the middle of the trees. So, your selective pressure with chondros being out in the open, very limited environmental niche. And that pushes them away from having high free of mutations, because anytime one of them pops up, it gets killed. It gets turned into a prey item real fast. So you're, you're purging those mutations out of gene pool faster than they can be aimed in the goal to turn up later in collections. Okay. Now there were some wild type chondros that did or are a certain color when they become adults like the canaries. Is that just because of, I guess there are something big and yellow where they live that helps them blend in or something like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that would be the assumption. I mean, I haven't, you know, obviously having not been to that region. I can't specifically say, but, you know, this is, this is the edge hypothesis theory is, you know, if the adults. Stably maintain yellow in those types of populations, then there's a reason that they can safely maintain that, which, you know, then your indication would be, you know, maybe there is a tree there, where leaves are more yellowy green than they are that vibrate leafy green or yeah, maybe there is yellowing plant or maybe there's, you know, a moss that grows on the trees that's yellow in color so they blend in better. Okay. Correct, correct me from wrong, isn't that. They, they, there's something about a moth in England or something like that that was like some of them were black and some of them were white and then, depending on what color the trees were in certain areas, those ones got eaten versus the other guys. So, yeah, the peppered moth. Yes, that's the quintessential, the quintessential evolution selection of the fifth. Yeah, they are the majority of them are a little bit of black flecking. And in a normal forest got the lichen, they blended in fine, and then the industrial revolution hit and people were pumping cold dust out into the air as they were burning it. And the soot was coating the trees, turning the trees black, and your bright white with little speckles, you stick out like a sore thumb black tree. But then the most form of the moth, which happens in very, very low frequency. Well, a black moth blends in really well with a tree that's stained black. So, then the black moth started to become more and more and more prominent in the population, and shifted the population dynamic. And then we've seen the reverse happening as, you know, clean burning went into effect and more green laws went into effect. And the trees now are reverting back to a more moss and coated nature and with the pepperon shift back to that white reflect pattern and less and less of the melanistic ones appearing. Right. Okay. Now, the one thing is that a lot of condor breeders try to have, I guess, red dominant to animals in the babies I guess is just they want the clutch to throw a lot of red babies because I think the. They tend to go hand in hand with really nice coloration. So, um, what would you, when would you consider how many breeding for it to be required for a condor to be considered a red dominant animal. I mean, how many clutches would they have to have for mostly red babies where you consider that to be a trait of theirs. This is another one where I'm probably gonna piss off a lot of people. That's fine. I guess it depends on what you believe with regard to the red yellows and condros. I subscribe to the theory that red and yellow are Mendelian. And that red is probably the derived ancestral trait. And yellow is a, it's a more recent learning mutation that is recessive. So. If you accept that, then you could prove an animal to be a dominant in a single breeding if you did the breeding right. Because basically what you would be doing is breed and animals reds to a neo that was yellow because if it's yellow then it's a recessive. So you're breeding a recessive to a dominant wild type essentially. If you get a clutch of all reds and you know your animal is a red dominant type. Because it'd be like reading a wild type to an albino. The wild type is the red, the albino is the yellow. You breed an albino to a wild type, all the babies look one type. They still carry the albino gene, but they look wild type. So if you breed an animal that you know is red to an animal's yellow, if all the babies throw red, you know that that red animal is red dominant. Okay. Now if you breed that red to a yellow and half the babies are red and half the babies are yellow dealing with essentially a hat animal. It carries from one red gene and one yellow gene. And that's why half the babies come out red because you get the pairing of red yellow and half of them come out yellow because that's the pairing of yellow yellow. Okay. Okay. It's conjured genetics is somewhat beyond me so. I'm sure I'm going to piss off a fair people in the condor community because not. Not everybody subscribes to the red is Mendelian red and yellow are Mendelian. Right. And, you know, that's fine. I just, I'm not going to be an absolute condor breeder either, but just the evidence that I have seen and the things that I had point that way to me. If somebody could show me logical arguments against it, I'll hear it. But at the same time, I would like to do a bunch of arguments if you want to argue with me, not. I don't think so because you're stupid. I like that. And I understand people think I'm stupid. How dare you come out with facts and science. Yeah. I mean, that's funny. I guess the last topic we're going to hit on for the night to, well, they're not really morality anymore, but still in our, still in our little group. Moralia, there's a kind of close. There's a, there's a genetically, there's a pretty cool thing that happened with the tandem bar scrub python where the normal phenotype is, well, what has happened is now the double recessive of patternless and exantic has now become the normal phenotype of what you see. Some people theorize that it's to do with the environment changing, etc, etc. Do you have any thoughts on what could cause this to happen in the wild and at what point does the double recessive become the normal and the pattern. Like pattern, asantic become the double recessive phenotype does that happen in any other species where they just flip like that. Um, the. They don't like flip the, the patterned, the animals. The chain is still the gene for pattern and for normal coloration that is a thick yellow oration. Those are still dominant genes. But, you know, as you noted, yeah, there's, there's the tandem bar population is, is the double recessive. And, um, I, I inclination. Yeah, is that that is like the pressures down to the environment. Um, and you see this. You see this in a lot of places and a lot of different species. It's. It's just how the species is acting to changes in the environment and changes in. There is, uh, there's, you know, going back to the mention of Celtic mice that I made earlier, there are actually populations of melanistic mice that live on volcanic cinder cones out. You know, in the no hobby desert. And the reason that they live cinder cones is because a black house blend really well with the black volcanic rocks. And it's a recessive trip. You know, and it's purified around around the cinder cones, because if, you know, if a normal colored mouse, sort of a done brown. Get into the volcanic area. Well, it's going to stick out like a sort of. Now, if it does manage to get in there to breed and it's carrying the black gene, then it's babies half of the babies will be black and half the babies won't. And the half that aren't are going to get eaten in the black ones will, you know, progress on, you get the point where basically everything or is black. There's a couple of species is a rat snake. You see in this where, depending on the environment, you know, their colors and patterning are different. The rattlesnakes, you know, they're rattlesnake populations where, you know, when they're on basically pink sandstone, the dominant color of the rattlesnake is sort of patient. You know, then you move to a more scribble in here. You've got slate fields and things and same species of rattlesnake, but it's gray and black models to match into those slate fields. And my explanation is that's what you see with these scribe pythons is there's been an environmental change where you're finding them that the. The best color and pattern to have is to be solid gray and blend in versus, you know, that chop a pattern with the yellows and the flex and the browns that would stick out like a sort of thumb there. And depending on the size of the population and the environment, you know, can be just little localized things like the mice or the different populations of rattlesnakes or rat snakes, or it can be a broad spectrum type of thing because you've got a whole. A whole bio change or something. Interesting. Gotcha. So if I'm going to think this out loud so it might sound stupid, but the idea is is that because the environment changed. So technically, if you have, let's, I'll use, I don't know, a carpet and if all of a sudden they're stuck in an environment where they. To camouflage in and develop green, let's say, or something that's out of what they normally would do. The thinking is, is that the ones that did sort of camouflage in with the environment would survive, and those recessive traits would then become. The dominant because if you take an albino and breed it to an albino, then you're going to get all albino so the fact that the ones that. The ones that that don't develop that they all die off and then there that's how that this 10 scrub. Well, the theory is that's how this one of the theories is this is how this tandem bar scrub. Developed into this patternless grey animal, which I believe you see the same thing in blue tongue skinks so that's what would lead me to believe that's. It's the environment because. Ten and bar. Blue tongue skinks I think look the same way. That's pretty interesting. It's the location of where they are. And I think the only thing that I would. It's not so much a disagreement is just more of a terminology thing. The patternless, I think becomes dominant because people would think dominant in the genetic form, just say that it becomes prevalent. Because your population is is shifting that way. The gene itself isn't changing, but the makeup of the population is changing because, like you said, you are now. It's just changing animals that are home is obvious for the recessive trait because that's the thing that can survive because that's the only thing that blends in. Gotcha. So that would be called what did you say it was again? How would you phrase it? Just just I would say the the recessive traits become prevalent in the population. Yeah. The same the same one was talking about with the remoths. The melanistic ones became prevalent in the more prevalent in the population because the trees were all turning black. Gotcha. They may become a greater population. Science is so cool. So cool. I love it. Genetics are the fun things. All right. So we do have the final closing questions, which are sometimes the toughest ones, even though we went through this whole genetics thing. And that is, if you could keep any reptile without restrictions of law, price, anything like that, what would it be and why? I think I would go with the turtle frog. The hell is a turtle frog. I'm just made it up. It's this really weird Australian frog and that's that's probably one of the reasons that I would want to keep it is because they're just so bloody weird looking. It basically looks like what you would picture a turtle without a shell looking like. What the hell is that? I don't want to have to google this. I just did it's a horrible creature. Good fire. I mean, they're, they're, they're just like a little message you're going to see. And that's part of the reason I think they're so cool. What the other reason I want to do it. The other reason I would want it is I think it would be awesome to something completely new like that into the hobby. You know, they're an Australian species. They're, I mean, we know how Australia's got a complete lockdown on every these days, but I think it'd be cool to bring something to do like. Oh my God, he's exactly correct. It looks like someone ripped a turtle out of a shell and like covered it in goo. I mean, oh my God, but I would ever. Hey, I'm weird. Yeah, I'm not you do you. That's fine. So. Christ. That's cool. All right. It's so freaky looking. It's awesome. But now if you could go herping in any place in the world, what would it be? And what would you be hoping to see? Probably go with Australia. They've just got all kinds of crazy shit there. And hoping to see the turtle frog. The thorny devil lizard. I'd like to see blackheads in the wild. I'd like to see the parenty monitors in the wild. Even things that we have in the hobby here, but I just think it would be cool to see in the wild like knobs. Yeah, hell, even even wild stuff. I just Australia's just got so many weird ass things as it is and just get all of them in the wild to be cool. When Eric and I go and I see like a bearded dragon in the wild and lose my shit, it's going to be totally embarrassing and funny. Cause I'll be like, Oh my God. Oh, and there's like millions of those. No, but it's here in the dirt. So yeah. So I totally. It's the same thing here. Yes. I'll see a garter snake outside and I'll go and go care about it. Just give me like this. Chasing after a garter snake for God's sake. It's a snake. The appetizer of mine. Outside. Yeah. No, don't. Oh, yeah. It's outside. That's a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Any particular part in Australia? I found that since we're planning a trip there, you know, there's, there's so many different, depending on what you want to see depends on where you want to go. Where would you go in Australia? Um, I probably are get the western or the northwestern regions. Okay. In addition to reptile life stuff, I also, as a hobby, I grew carnivorous plants and stuff. There are, there are a ton of strange carnivorous plants on that side of Australia. Okay. One's basically dropped down to like a potato tuber during the dry summers and then come up road during the winter. Weird to go dormant as like a, almost a fuzzy looking pin cushion. So there's all kinds of cool stuff out there. Yeah. I'm just hoping Eric isn't getting eaten by a crocodile. I mean, that's the only thing I'm trying to avoid. I do look like a teddy ski snack. You do. I mean, you're a lord. It's over. Um, so now where can people get in touch with you, Travis? They want to talk to you about, you know, I know some genetic stuff or. Are you going to be producing any animals this coming season or are you strictly on a. These are my cool sciency pets, kind of a guy. I'm mostly just a cool sciency pets kind of guy. I don't really breathe. Okay. Every once in a while, I'll let it go, but it's usually just signs to whatever I was trying to produce out. To find me, I usually work on Bush league. And my handle there is a splendii as plundii. It's also mail. People can email me there. Um, and you can hit me up on Facebook. My name, uh, what is it? Facebook. Slash th one. Okay. So if we, if we had chat anything freaky, send you pictures and be like, what the hell is this? And, uh, you can start to figure it out. All right. Actually, I will try. That's all I want. All right. Awesome. So we have been educated and a little bit smarter for the whole episode, which doesn't normally happen. So that's it. Yeah. Thanks so much for coming on Travis. Not a problem. Have something to listen to next week when I'm on vacation to digest all this and be that much more educated. Yeah. I'm going to see him in my nightmares. Oh my God. Also, the problem is that freaky animals like the turtle frog. Um, they're, they're freaky, but then I find them absolutely fascinating because they're so freaky. So at work tomorrow, I will be studying the turtle frog. Read everything I can find on this thing. So, oh, Travis started a whole movement and hurt the culture. I was not prepared for this creature, but awesome. Cool. Well, thanks again, man. Appreciate everything, man. Very, very cool stuff. It's not a problem. All right. We'll see you later. We'll have you back on when we have more weird genetic things. So good. All right. You have a good night, Travis. You. Cool. You feel, you feel smarter, Owen? You feel, you feel better? Yes, I feel better. And I like it that I was able to, you know, should have read my old genetics notes from frickin college before we did this show. But I do like how everything was kind of explained a little bit more. And I can't wait to go to the next show and point at the pet pods and be like, you know that you didn't know that's an incomplete dominant and then walk away and let little ball python people go. Well, as I like leave, no, it's not. Oh my goodness. I didn't learn anything during the show. You need to reflect back tomorrow. Got you. Pointy, then we tell them something. Oh, my goodness. All right. Well, let's see. Next week. I will not be here. Nope. I will be. All down in Florida. Possibly stopping at Daytona show. Nice. That would be interesting. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe. So next week, what are you doing? What's your show? Review. We're going to go over some stuff that I'm going to have Zach and Matt on. And we're going to go through a lot of the stuff that we have in taking care of our animals, various types of stuff. I'll review my cages. Not yet. Well, maybe. I'll let Matt come to that one. I want some sick water ball talk. Things like the different cages that we all use. He panels that we all use as well as the different computer systems that we all use telling you guys, which ones are worth the money, which ones aren't worth the money, which ones have issues. Which ones have problems. What we've all experienced is being an issue with these things as well as reviewing a few other things. Somebody asked your view on snake hooks and I hate to break it to them. I've made all my snake hooks. So, and I don't know, maybe Matt bought his. So I don't know who's so basically just try to get everybody, you know, different reviews and stuff that we've seen and whether or not you want to spend your money on that or something else. So, you know, I heard a show today with Nick mutton show and he was talking about these new links and. Yeah, the rabbit sausage. Yeah. At first I was kind of like, and I don't really get what's going on with that, but the more that they. That they talked about it on the show. So if you have a chance, you should go and listen to that show almost so that I think maybe we'll get them to come on and talk to us too. If they're available, but the possibilities with that as far as I think. Because in particular, where eating a they talked about on the show about eating a rodent based diet as bad for the systems eating hair is bad for the systems. So they can eat something that say a reptile based they were talking about maybe future having a reptile diet sausage that you could feed your snakes and then think of like. Anterasia, how difficult they are to to get going on on rodents. If you had something that was, you know, tile based sausage, you would, you know. They would just have the guys who make the solid grind up some ginks or something. Yeah, because it's my understanding that it is whole prey. And what I guess what they do is, is that they are removing the G.I. track as well as skinning it before it is processed. Well, the other thing that they were talking about is how much waste is actually in the rodents that we feed, feed our reptiles. And when you think you're feeding it, you know, I don't know, say something that weighs X amount, it's really a lot less than that because, you know, waste that's just in the rat. You know, they say that it's a lot. I know they talked about the egg quality was much better and I had to do with the grinding up of, you know, the calcium that was in the, in the reptile. But I don't know, interesting nonetheless, especially, like I said, for those more difficult species to get going. You know, I think of all the people that are working with, like, can do and all that stuff now. I mean, if I had known I could have made money, my grandfather was a butcher. I could have taken his grinder and a box of bull for all of you and we could have been off to the race. Only you. I'm not just saying if this is where we're going. I can get there. I mean, note this, I wonder, have them on when Owen is on vacation. That, that is a smart suggestion. Yes. Apparently you skipped the question, my friend. I skipped many questions. If I don't see them, I mean, it's, I don't, sorry guys. If, if you really, really, really want your questions asked, email them to us before the show. Otherwise we try to get to them when they're on the things. But if we're rolling or if I'm not looking at my phone, I, I cannot ask them. I'm sorry. So I know buddies probably in tears over the fact that I didn't ask his questions. I'll make it up to him later by making him pay me. So. Very good. Very good. Okay. Anyway, let's throw this out there. Go for it. The Southern Carpet Fest is September 12th in Texas. I believe it's, Bill Stiegel is hosting this one. Okay. I guess if you want to find out more details, contact Evan Browder. And he can hook you up with, with some more details. But yeah, they're, they're getting that going, which is cool. I think I'm going to, I'm going to try to get there because that was supposed to be the weekend of the Northwest Carpet Fest, but they moved. So did you already take the, you already took the day off or something like that? Yeah. I already have all this matter getting a ticket. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good possibility. You find it. Texas. Wait, where? Yeah. Why not? Texas. All right. So. Okay. That one. Bill's going to sell you something while you're there. So. Yeah. I have to take a picture, I think with his, or something. Yeah. Let's see. Steal his glasses. Those, those like surgical kind of leaves and glasses. Yeah. Yeah. Bring them back. So. Bring them back for you. I don't, I don't want to use them. I just want to take a picture and be like, Bill, look what I have. But you know, yeah, that's all I want. We'll mail it back after we're done. All right. Yeah. I get down there and hang out with those guys. I think it would be a good time. So. So. September 12th, if you're in Texas or in the Texas area. Southern Carpetfest. And the Northwest Carpetfest, just so everybody knows, is on October 3rd. Over 3rd Northwest Carpetfest. I know that Amy is looking for. Donations for the. For the auction. And they're kind of looking for a head count to kind of have an idea of. Of who's coming. So. Go over to the. Carpetfest Facebook site. And check out. Check out there for more details. You can file it over. I believe it's on the Carpetfest Facebook page. If you have not liked that. If you have not that group, then be sure to go over and give it a like. And don't forget, then we have the Southeast Carpetfest November 7th. Man, I'm taking a tour of the country. Oh, really? South. The South Carpetfest. The South. South East Carpetfest. Northwest. Yeah. I can't make the Northwest one because that is the week before 10. So I will not be able to get to that. Maybe you should add out to that one. Well, which kind of. Because I was. Again, the money. The money you think I have scrolled away is amazing. So. Don't. Maybe next year. They. Again, maybe next year. I'll take trips out the Carpetfest. So. Okay. So we talked about what's going to be on the show. And let's see. For our website, MariahPythonRator.com. If you have any questions and you want to email us, send them to info@MariahPythonRator.com. Check out our Facebook page. Give it a like. You can follow us on to MariahPython. And if you want to listen to the show, best way is to download it on iTunes. We talked about the Carpetfest. I always have to throw out. Support us arc us arc.org. If you're not a member, go sign up. And I would also recommend when you're using ship your reptiles to ship them. Click the little box that donates a dollar. Yep. I always do. For anybody who's ever gotten anything shipped from me from ship your reptiles, you've unknowingly donated a dollar to US arc. I kind of just rained it in with your shipping. Sorry. And no, I will not stop it. So there you go. You've been warned. And I want to promote another Facebook group page. This one is called Breeders Direct. The cool thing about this Facebook page is that you're dealing directly with the person that produced it. I know a lot of times we had Chris on the show and he talked about this, but I'm just going to throw it out there. If you're looking to get into Moralia, perhaps you want to Carpet Python, perhaps you want to Condro, maybe even a rough scale. If there's even any available. But if you're looking for any of that stuff, you want to deal directly with the breeder with those type of a couple reasons why. The main one is that especially with Moralia, whether it be carpets or condros, you definitely want to see what the parents look like. If possible, because it makes you a good feel on how those babies are going to turn out. For instance, if you're looking for a killer jungle carpet, you don't want to just go buy jungle carpet off of Facebook. Somebody that you don't know, because you're going to be disappointed. And not to say when people are selling say, you know, breeders or maybe older snakes that they didn't produce, but it's been in their collection for a long time. I don't know. A couple of trains of thought with that. I mean, some people can get them to go. I think your girl will probably be successful with this year. And the reason probably is, is because once she's been here for quite a while, but two, we're really, well, we're really very to each other in the grand scheme. It's not like it's like drastically different events or anything like that. Yeah. But sometimes you take a chance. Like some people, I know this used to be something with, I used to hear a lot on reptile radio with ball pythons, is that people would try to take shortcuts, buy a whole bunch of females, you know, and then think that they were going to breed it. And it turns out that they waited just as long as if they were raising up. I've had that at, you know, where they don't go this season, you get them and then they end up going the year after, or the year after that sometimes it takes a bit. So I would recommend buying babies and raising them up because you know what? It's easier that way. And they're once they are old enough to breed, it's like clockwork. They just go. So, yeah. Yep. So again, if you're a more experienced keeper, you may be able to get around and get those pitfalls that we're talking about with various tips and tricks that you may know. However, if you're just kind of new into it, like I said, and you're looking for quality carpet python or condro, then that would be the place to go. Check it out. Breeder direct marathon classified. Check it out. And let's see, I think, I think that is all I have. As far as me, E.B. Moralia, you can follow me on my Facebook page. E.B. Moralia, you can follow me on Twitter, which is E.B. Moralia. Check out my site, which is E.B. Moralia.com. If you have any questions, comments, looking for something that I have available, send it to me at Eric at E.B. Moralia. The next show that we will be at will be Tinley Park. So if you're thinking about heading out, me and Owen will be there, along with Zach. I know Matt from Philly Herb will be there. So the whole NPR group will be over at Carpet Row. So if you're there, go over and say hello, and we'll chat about Geek Out About Snakes, and Owen will make fun of me, then we'll make fun of Owen, and life will be good. It is usually how it goes, yeah. So that's all I got. Cool. What I got is, you can get a rogue-reptiles.com to figure out all the good stuff happening at Rogue. If you are on Facebook, you can go over to roguereptiles.com. Give us a like. You'll see all the animals we have for sale. If you have purchased any babies from Rogue and wish to add them to our Soul Babies album on the Facebook page, just send us a picture of the animal and tell us when you bought it, who the parents were, if you remember, if not, I will. And if the animal has a name, we'd be happy to throw it up there for you, and we always like looking at the kids after they've left the nest. The next show for me is Tinley Park Chicago with Eric in that's October, 10th and 11th, 11th and 12th. One of those days around that time. I think it's the 10th and 11th. Thank you. So 10th and 11th, I will be at the September White Plains Show. I'll be attending, not vending. So if you are planning on attending the White Plains Show and wish to purchase an animal, we can deliver it to the show for free. Usually hanging around Mike Curtin's table most of the day, but just let us know and we'll do that. Other than that, that's all I got. So what we'll say is thanks everybody for listening and we'll catch everybody next week for some more on Radio minus Eric. Sorry, buddy. So, good night, everyone. Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, whereas a reptile breeder and the owner of Pro Dzox. I've been herping since I was a boy, and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markland and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links, so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business, and the best part is, it's free. If you're a buyer or a breeder, you've got to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling destination full of features to help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, search by sex, weight, morph, or other keywords, and use our Buy Now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.the reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum med. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Prior to selling, you ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. Ship your reptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animals successfully. Use ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. The materials needed to ship the reptile successfully live customer support in our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace, find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related. [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music] [music]