Morelia Python Radio

Jungle Carpet Pythons with Chris Rindels of Head Hunter Reptiles.

In this episode we will be joined by Chris Rindels of head Hunter Reptiles and we will be talking all about jungle carpet pythons. Head Hunter Reptiles produces some of the best jungle carpet pythons in the US and we will be going discussing what they have going on and what they are shooting for in the 2016 season.

Duration:: 2h 20m
Broadcast on:: 29 Jul 2015
Audio Format:: other

[BLANK_AUDIO] Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, or as a reptile breeder and the owner of Proxox. I've been herping since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Marklin and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news. Photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is, it's free. 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Shipereptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates and materials needed to ship the reptile successfully live customer support in our live on time arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipereptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of Moralia Python Radio. Tonight we're talking with Chris. Chris Rindles from Head Hunter Reptiles. We're going to be talking about jungle carpets. I don't know if you guys out there in the list of the audience have seen some of the 2015 jungles that they produced, but my goodness Owen, they are just beyond stellar. So I don't know. It's been what three years since we've had Chris on the show. I love that you're doing these repeat shows all of a sudden with the people we've had on and like the beginning because it's been three years since we've had Chris on. We've, I think, gotten better or we're really going to hide in it now. Ah, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, one of those is happening. So it's cool that we got Chris back on, especially now we can go through, you know, obviously he's not just not done anything in the past three years. Head hunters is expanded and, you know, he's kicking ass with the zebras. He's doing all this stuff. And the jungles, of course, have always been some really nice clutch jungles that if you're in the jungles and you don't have a head on her jungle, you're just, you're, you're, you're, you're fucking up. You're not doing it right. So if you're into jungles and you haven't done that, it's just stupid. So, it's, it's cool that we're going kind of like backtracking, especially with, you know, these shows right now. So, yeah, it's cool. Yeah, the as much as, as much as I guess I would hate to say it because of being, you know, not always the in the jungle carpet python camp. I would say that when you go to a show, or you post a picture on Facebook or wherever you're posting it, nothing gets attention in the carpet python complex or world or whatever you want to say, like jungle carpets. I mean, it's really hard to be yellow and black. I mean, when it comes to contrast, I mean, you can't get any better. It's one of those things where, you know, I can have what is deemed a really good looking carpet python, whether it be a coastal or an ij or something like that. And stick it out in front of the public and people who are knowledgeable about coastal or ij's will pick out what's awesome and interesting about that animal. But the normal walker, normal person passing by who maybe isn't into carpet pythons might just skip right by it. I mean, it's a brown or red or, you know, caramel color snake, but you stick a really nice contrast and bright yellow and dark black animal right there. That's when that's when they actually start taking notice. Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, some of the, I remember, I remember I was at work. And, you know, I was taking a break or something and I'm sitting there and I'm flipping through my phone and I'm looking at the Facebook feed and up pops this jungle carpet and I would have sworn it was a jag. Yeah, it was. It was that reduced pattern and, you know, what, I don't know, I guess, you know, what they're after as far as their selective reading. You know, I guess it's really starting to pay off. I think it kind of, it makes me question sometimes whether or not being, you know, I know we go back and forth all the time when we have different guests on but. If you're really focused, you know, like a laser beam on certain projects, does that pay off in the end? Of course not. Well, I mean, you can, like, it goes back to the how many ways are they just going to cat. Of course, it pays off if you're extremely focused, but it also pays off if you're not. So there's so many different ways to succeed here, but I don't know when you see the where they've come with the refinement of the jungle carpets. It's amazing. And, you know, I know we have newer types of jungle carpets now. I mean, we have the ivories and then we're starting to get different localities and stuff like that. But again, even with all that stuff, nothing beats a really nice bright yellow jungle, nothing in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, to me, I think a lot of people, when they look at them, what they're immediately drawn to is the yellow. But what I've tried to focus on and picking out my jungles is the black. I like the, like, no tipping in the button, like, just solid black as black as you can get, you know, so that's what I always shoot for. Other people go different. It's fine. So, yeah, we keep different flavors. We keep losing Chris, I was just going to look a little bit. Oh, crap. Oh, no. Seven issues already started. I just said we're doing better. See, that'll teach me. See, that was my fault. I apologize to everybody. So, earlier today, I was talking with his name is Louie. Ms. Sham. He's from Australia. Okay. You know, he, he, he runs the Inbracada group. And then, were you swooning over his Inbracadas? Oh, my goodness. Yes, you are. Anyway, we had a long conversation about, um, he's doing some things with, um, well, first we were talking about mixing up prey items. I know, I thought we were going to, I thought we were going to say mixing up the bloodlines. I'm like, yes. Okay, I thought for a moment you had lost your mind. So continue. No, uh, mixing up like, uh, in, you know, like every, I don't know, once a month or every couple of months feeding them. Yeah. I think he said finches, he feeds and he noticed, uh, you know, just the difference in, um, uh, just their whole health, I guess, he over, uh, let me see if I can find it. So I noticed, uh, seemed to, uh, retain that healthy spine definition along its back, a good healthy weight and no health issues. Uh, he was talking about his experiences, a lot of carpets get kidney disease or other fat related ailments. And, um, he was saying that I guess with rats in particular, that could be an issue. Well, I can see that because we are feeding them animals that weren't normally found on Australia. So. Yeah, but it's really hard to get like an active population of like kangaroo mice or something in my basement. So, but if you're there, why not? So, well, he does, uh, I think he said he was doing, uh, Dale chicks and finches and whoa. Who was it? Was it, uh, was it there? There, right? He told us that everyone's wanted like there was a fish. Do you like his blackheads or something like that? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, he does. I would be surprised. Yeah. And then I would definitely say that, uh, altering up prey items would be probably the snakes benefit I, that doesn't surprise me at all. So, I mean, they're not, uh, they don't eat just the same thing out in the wild. They find it. They kill it. They eat it. I mean, today's a bat. Tomorrow's a freaking, you know, bird, whatever. Oh, and I have to start with my mic and my headphones. No, hold on. I don't know where that came from, but when I, when I hear this, like, this, like, rattle or something, and it's not like an annoying battle or something, but it sounds like you have like a bracelet on and you're like sipping on a, like a scotch or something in this bracelet is wrapped. I have water, but here. Are you all right? I'm sitting here a picture and you just having your scotch in your hands. I'm in my smoking jacket in my wing back chair with a scotch. Do you have a problem with how I do the show? Thank you. Can we move on? Goddamn it. Now, now I have no joy with swirling my brandy. I mean, you've taken all the fun out of it. Son of a bitch. Son of a bitch. It's ruined, ruined, totally ruined. It's poured down the drain now. Oh, sorry. Let's think Chris is right here. Let's get him on. God, I hope so. Hey, Chris, is that you? Yeah, I had to abandon a headphone thing and just a phone, so let me know if it sounds like a complete ass. No, no, you're fine. We've had much worse. So it's all good. Awesome. Well, welcome back to the show. We have no idea why you people keep coming back on. I mean, I figured you guys were gluttons for punishment already. So, thanks for coming back on. And what's new going on at Head Hunters since the last time we talked to you? Well, we both moved. Oh, well, we were both in Iowa. The last time we talked. And now I'm in Arizona and Kepel is in Seattle. So we kind of became left coast kind of people. Wow, pretty far. Yeah, how does that make the partnership much more challenging now? Yeah, yeah, we're between the two. You guys like shipping snakes back and forth to each other? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, we're pretty stable on what we each work with kind of thing. So there isn't a whole lot. We'll swap a couple snakes every now and again, but for the most part, we're pretty set with what we're trying to accomplish. So, yeah. Do you guys have dramatic as far as that goes? Do you guys have specific projects that you're working on? Like something that he likes that you don't or you like that he doesn't? I pretty much make all the cool shit. And then he just kind of dicks around over there. I don't know. Right. He just kind of messes around with weird stuff. He's got some little green snakes with long noses and other stuff like that. But things nobody cares about. No, he I sent our mail like Breeder Zebra up to him this year. So this coming season, he's going to take over that. And he does all our jungle jag stuff up there. So, very cool, very cool. So when you moved, did you guys definitely see a dip in productivity? Because I know a lot of people, including myself, just moving like an hour away totally messed up my guys for a season. Did you guys kind of have to wade through that as well? Oh, yeah, it was horrible. Okay. Yeah, we moved down here in March of 2012. So it was like right after that Tinley show and we moved down here. And so I mean, I had quite a bit of time to acclimate the snakes to the weather, but it's just a whole new ballgame down here. It's like my I can't get my ambience in my house below 70 degrees if I try kind of thing. So it's and it's it's weird because it's like 80 degrees in my house all the time. Even with like the air conditioner running nonstop and 80 degrees when you're down here actually feels refreshing, but back in the highway, it's like, oh my God, I don't want to move Arizona. Right. That's great about nine months out of the year, but yeah, you definitely don't want to come visit right now. That's for them. Jesus. Wow. I think I completely struck out that first season. Kettle had some stuff go, but Seattle is much more. I don't want to say like Iowa like, but at least it has season like a. Okay. It gets cool enough, you know, that you can manipulate stuff a lot easier. So, I mean, if somebody like Eric we're moving, would you get nervous right now. I would be very nervous. Yeah. Yeah, that'd be petrified. I think it's more just the drastic climate change. I think so. That I may be. And once they once I got a year under my belt, then I just basically went to all. Like 2014 or whatever. I think I bred all virgin females. And just started basically from scratch with them being used to. The environment and like so and a cooling period where they're getting down to 70 degrees and everything seemed to work fine for them. I got a question, Chris. Have you noticed a difference in animals that you produced acclimating to the change easier than animals that you didn't produce? Yes, I would say so actually. I think, yeah, ones that I had bought and had for a few years. It could be that I produced it. It could just be an age thing too. I haven't. I don't buy a lot of snakes anymore. So it's like the ones that I did buy were much older and mature and a lot of the stuff that I produced was younger. You know, so I don't know if that's why it seemed like it adapted better or if it was just an age thing. But yeah, I definitely did notice something along those lines. But it could just be that the other ones were living in Iowa for five or six years and then all of a sudden got jolted into the desert. Right. Absolutely. So now obviously headhunters main focus is jungles. Can you give us kind of like a review of what you guys got going on jungle wise? Bloodlines, special pairings, any specific animals that you think we should know about? Yeah, I mean, all of our line stuff is kind of like what we work with now is just stuff that, you know, I'm dealing with like grandchildren of snakes that we purchased, you know, like 15 years ago kind of stuff. We do a lot with the CVR stuff, Brinkley. Well, the CVR snake from Will Leary. I mean, we do a lot with that. We're a couple of generations from that now. And then we do what I call a flash line. And that's just kind of like something that I called it kind of the name of the snake. But I mean, she's 2001 animal. And honestly, when we picked her up, we were like, that is a really pretty jungle carpet python. Let's buy that at a show in Omaha, Nebraska. And so I have, you know, actually I couldn't tell you like the kid's name, you know, that I got it from or anything. It was well before I knew anybody even cared about such information. Kind of deal, but so mainly what we do is stuff through her, her bloodline stuff and stuff through Brinkley bloodline stuff. And then we did a swap way back in the day with Andrew Hare back in like 2006. So we got a couple of highlighter animals from that. And so we've incorporated that into a lot of our stuff. Other than that, I bring a new animal in every once in a balloon moon. We got a shoe of female from Dale Huffman back in 2011. We bred her for the first time this year. Let's see. I picked up a young that I'm sure you guys know, he is a night butcher, his name is Slokey Kim Slokey off of Facebook. He might have seen him. Oh, yeah. He had a real much a highlighter stuff a couple of years ago. And I picked up one of them. I think that's the only new jungle that I brought in and probably four years. And then Amanda, my baby mama, she has the striped stuff that we're working with to try to like see what's going on with that. And I think that's a challenge of going. It's interesting. I mean, I was really excited at first because it really was like from what she had done in the past and what we've known and had happened to the original animal. Originally, it really was acting like a straight up like codom kind of thing like you bred two stripes together and you got these ones with this old tiger stripe looking jungles. And if you just read one of them to a normal, then you get about half stripes, you know, and they'd be more of that pinstripe look and blah, blah, blah. And it was all like, oh, this is really cool. You know, if we can figure this out. And we bred it. It's one of ours. Last year. And we got about half stripes, half knot, couple of real bold stripe ones. Yada yada yada. So this year we bred her. To like the most banged male I had. I was like, okay, here we go. I'm just going to throw this at it and see if it actually works right or not. The first year we used this, they called Veric, which is a very reduced pattern slash stuff that we produced like six, seven years ago, and he was very reduced pattern. So I couldn't really. So he had a clean dorsal. You wouldn't call him stripe, but he had a clean dorsal. No, I was like, that could be what influenced in it. So we brought it to a really banded male this year, real pretty snake too, because I really wanted to try to up the color potential. And I got a couple stripes. I have like a 12 a clutch. I got two that we would call like striped by the definition. And then I get, then there was about half the clutch was banded, just straight banded, and then there's like four or five or what I call like wannabe stripes. They, they want to be striped. You can tell that their pattern wants to be striped, like their bands will break every once in a while and they'll have partial striping and stuff like that. But not what I would classify as a striped snake by any stretch of the imagination. But so I think it probably works a lot like that stuff that Jason does with those tigers. So I think I can make it look like a tiger coastal over time and selectively breed it to do that, but the mode of inheritance isn't as fail safe as I thought. You can still muck it all up if you bring it to the wrong snake. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. So we're going to go through now your collection. I got a few things we're going to talk about. And if you don't mind just hitting on it, kind of going a little bit deeper. Let's start with Brinkley. Can you give us the backstory on Brinkley and what's going on with her because I have one of her kids over here. She's a Brinkley zebra and she makes phenomenal babies. Yeah, she, yeah, 2003 will leery cover girl times Boaz, I think. I don't know how you pronounce it, but it's like B.O.A.Z. is what he called the male. And so, and she really inherited what I consider, and a lot of them did, like more his traits than the CV than the actual covered girl herself. She just has that very bright, clean, yellow, solid, black, pretty banded, you know. And so her offspring have all pretty much been like that. Every once in a while, something aberrant will come out. But it's just kind of like, I see a Brinkley clutch and I'm like, okay, they got little smiley faces or frown faces on their head. They got skinny yellow bands, sometimes a little bit broader, but pretty skinny and uniformed. They're pretty lazy brown, boring for the first two or three months out of the egg. You know, it's just, they're very predictable of what she throws, but they always end up in color up. And so, and they're pretty consistently clean. So, they'll pick up some black fleck in the yellow every once in a while, but I wouldn't call it dirt. I'd call it, you know, when they pick up like solid black scales in the yellow. Do you find that people like the solid black scales in the yellow or they'd like the cleaner look more? Personally, I like the cleaner look, unless it's just extreme. I've seen a couple that just have so much black in the yellow, but it almost becomes cool looking. But for the most part, I think people go for the clean, as clean a yellow as possible. I usually, that's usually what I look for. Yeah, it's usually me too. It's hard to say, because they don't pick that up. Or, you know, they can be a couple of three years before they even start to pick that coloration up. Yeah, that is true. I mean, you never kind of know if they're going to start getting that tipping or whatever the little scales in various places. Right. But very cool. Can you give us a little bit of overview of Willyrie's cover girl line? And I know you mentioned a few times you're talking about Brinkley. Right. Yeah, I mean, it's just, you know, it's cover girl because it was on the cover of Reptile's magazine at one point. I believe it's, it was Casey's, right, originally. Casey Lacy. I thought it was Casey. Yeah, I thought it was a Casey Lacy animal and then came into that stuff. Right. And I've seen him pose before where it killed Trace at back a couple of generations before Hurry. Then the stuff, he's got pictures of grandparents of cover girl and, you know, cover girl is probably a great, great grandma by now. Right. I mean, that line, that line's been cooking. So, yeah. Right. So, yeah, I mean, everybody jumped on cover girl stuff. And there's good reason to. I mean, what Will did with it was really impressive, I think. Some of the stuff like you hear of Hope, you know, and Brinkley's another one. But there's a couple of three of them out there that kind of stuck around and produced a lot of snakes. And they were all, you know, I picture cover girl now and she was kind of tipped out and not real. Her herself didn't really look like what we picture cover girls line stuff looking like now. In my opinion, like she was just, she was a little different, you know, and she wasn't just through selected breeding, you know, I mean, they're just so much cleaner now. But she was obviously the. Well, architect. Well, I like it because we all have this picture of cover girl in our head. And that's obviously like, you know, we all see the picture of her on the magazine cover, but right, you know, the snake did get older. So it's like, it's almost like we stopped looking at her after a certain point. So, and obviously just through the line breeding minute that her kids obviously surpassed her and then those kids surpassed those kids and all of this stuff. So, right. And you look, a lot of us, you know, first of all in love with jungles from that picture of it on the marker book, you know, and you look at, if you look at that picture now you'd be like, Oh, wow. That is, that is important. When I stare at this, I don't want it. Yeah. So, right. Speaking of a week, go ahead, Eric. Yeah, we did have a question come in from Andrew Paris when we were just talking about tipping a minute ago and he's talking about regards to tipping. He's talking about your. What is it rigid and Sahara clutch describe. Can you describe your thoughts on that clutch and where you want to go with it in the future with tipping in terms of selective breeding. Yeah. That clutch is kind of like a re focus on something that I started to do about five or six years ago, like in 2008, 2009, I was all about trying to make jungles with as much yellow as possible. You know, like 70, 30 looking jungles and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I realized like how much work it was going to take. And then that's when the jags really took off. And I'm kind of like, well, hell, there's this snake that I'm trying to make right there. And it's a hell of a lot easier to do it that way. There we go. And, and voila. But I held back. One's a horror snake from slash in 2009 because she was very reduced in pattern a lot of yellow. And I held her back and I didn't breeder and breeder. And then last year I decided to inject some CVR blood into it. And I got the clutch I got last year from her, which I was very, very happy with, like surprisingly so. John Tang posts a picture of one every once in a while, it's just ridiculous. And the whole back that we kept are really nice. And a few of the other ones I've seen are all just very, very nice animals. But they pretty much had your standard jungle black. They didn't really have the tippy. So, and those took forever to color up. And so when I was thinking about it, like six months when those are horror babies from last year were about six months old and they were still kind of whitish looking. I was like, I need to jump that yellow color up a little bit. So I'm going to try to breed like a highlighter male into it. Which is a snake we've been using for like jungle jacks for years. And that's pretty much it. We did one jungle pairing with him once. But I was real, I went through a phase where I was real anti tipping. I was trying to get as solid a black as humanly possible. And everything I held back, I held back because it didn't have any yellow in the black. You know, the yellow be damned. I could care less. I just didn't want any yellow in the black. And so that snake was always kind of like the ugly stepchild because it was tipped out like crazy. It was like 2006 highlighter pairing. I can't remember. I think it's like I stole it or something like that was a female that Andrew used. But when you first started bringing those highlighter snakes, they were tipped out like that like crazy. They were just all like crazy tipped out, weird looking. And then as the pairings with that snake like insured, they started to look more like the father. So when you picture a highlighter now, at least with me, I picture real dark, solid black and little like yellow broken bands and blah, blah, blah. But back in the day, there are always these really tipped out, funky looking diamond cross looking things. And so, as I go, I'm going to try to do that and see if I can bring that tipping in. And if I can reduce the pattern and bring the tipping in both, then that should make that snake look pretty yellow by time it's often done. And then like long behold, they came out way more tipped than even I anticipated. These things are, I don't know, borderline stupid looking just because they got so much yellow blushing coming in on them that they're just freaky. And they came out super clean and, I don't know, they're weird. I only have a couple left. I kept a pair just to make sure, as I could see myself, I probably colored up, but yeah, they're going to be strange. Strange is good. Strange is alright. We can do strange. So I don't really anymore try not to repeat pairings too often, but I think I might actually go ahead and repeat that one again. If they color up the way, I think they will. If they all must have been, I won't. Then we don't ever touch that again. Yeah, that was never talk about that pairing again. You speak that under the rug. It's really coming in on that one. Yeah. Well, alright. Now, when it comes to jungles, the name "Shoo It" pops up a lot. Do you know any of the history on that? And what do you think about the "Shoo It" line jungles? I love the "Shoo It" line jungles. If I had to guess what my flash female was, that's what I would guess it is, just because it has that look. But I don't know that for a fact. If I put my money on something, that's what I'd put it on, but I don't know for sure. But actually, I saw that that you're going to ask me about that. And I was like, honestly, I don't really know that much about "Shoo It" line stuff. So I actually messaged him last night and was talking to him a little bit. And he was saying that he got all his stuff, late 80s, early 90s. He read a rough couple names that I did not recognize. And then he kind of told me that they were like German line jungles. But I can't remember if you used quotation marks or it italicized it or something, but it made it seem like the German line part was a little on the iffy. Whoever got it from calling him that, but whether or not he believed them or not, is kind of like, I think, what he was trying to say. And then I was actually talking to Nick earlier today about something completely different. And he was saying that she would get all his stuff from Larry Black. Well, it wasn't directly from Larry Black, but he said this guy got stuff from Larry Black and told it to "Shoo It" and "Shoo It" pretty much used exclusively that except for one animal. And the guy that Nick mentioned, I'm not a million years old, I remember his name, but it was the same guy that Shoo It mentioned when I was talking to him last night. So I'm guessing if anything Nick probably knows more about the Shoo It line stuff than Shoo It does himself. If I'm betting men, which is probably true about most of our stuff as far as Nick is concerned. So that's what I guess Larry Black stuff would be what I would say, but Gordon did say that he probably produced over 300 jungles when he was doing it. I mean, there was a ton of them out there at one time. So I mean, when you see Shoo It line stuff, it always tends to be a little skeptical. But when he produced that much stuff, I can believe that there's that much stuff still floating around out there. Right. Well, yeah, they have a particular look to them that you can kind of, I don't know, just like they really pop, you know. Yeah, it's like that German look, you know, but whatever that means, you know, it isn't like the jungles were found in the rainforest of Western Germany or something. So whatever German means, I'm sure that's just the entry point of being smuggled in to Europe. Right. Very cool. So, let's talk a little bit about your 2015 stuff that you did this season. The first question that I get asked this a lot by new listeners and whatnot, but when it comes to picking out, you know, that stellar jungle carpet. What's your first rule of thumb? What do you, what do you look for or what do you, what do you pick out that that stand up? Usually, last year, I decided that I was going to just go completely and totally 100% on like contrast, whichever ones were the most contrasted out of the egg. And after their first shed, it's like those were the ones I was going to hold back. And then Amanda picked a jungle out of one of the clutches because she liked the head pattern, which is something that I used to do all the time too. It's like, oh, that's a cool headband, I'm going to keep that one. But so she picked that one out and we're watching them through the first couple of three sheds. And ones I picked out were just like kicking that one, but you know, it's just like, oh yeah, thanks a lot for picking that one. You know, I sold that one to John Chen because you picked that one and blah, blah, blah. And then like a couple, three months after that, it's like, oh, wow, his yellow is actually starting to come in pretty well. And she's like, you know, no, you're not looking too bad. And I'm like, yeah. And then now it looks better than the two that I picked, of course. And it's just bright and clean. It can be minor nice snakes, but for sure, but that one is a cut above the ones that I picked out. So I don't really rely too heavily. I never have relied too heavily on that on contrast, and I decided to. And I can't fit bit me in the ass because they're still very nice snakes, but they aren't hands. I didn't see any noticeable that they're better than ones that didn't look that contrasty out of that clutch. I guess that's the best way to put it. So it's artists. I just breed so many of them that I'm going to be right every once in a while, just by the fall, you know, more than anything. And I sell my stuff quick. Like once it's got a shed out of the way and it's eaten good, then I advertise them. And so everybody's kind of on a level playing field. You know, it's kind of like, I don't know. This is the one I'm picking. If I wasn't picking this one, I might pick that one. You know, if you want to try that one kind of deal, it's how it usually works out. And so sometimes I get the best one, sometimes at home. With the level of the quality of the stock that you're working with, do you find that the outcomes are pretty consistent or are you, I mean, are you getting plus jungles and a plus jungles or are you still seeing that like really stellar ones and then ones that, you know, are really. Yeah, I don't really see that total like turd anymore, you know, I never really see one that just goes to complete crap. I mean, they're obviously great with them, you know, some term out better than others, obviously, but I don't really see the, you know, when you think of like bad jungles, you know, you almost have to think back into the past. Although it's because so many people have so many nice things now that there is like on a whole new plane, I think, anyway, you know, so that I'm going to do with me. It's just a little quality of animals out there that you don't really see those just super dirty ones or those, you know, unless it's like a zebra or something, you know, and that isn't been done enough to really eliminate it. But I think the people that have worked with them a couple three generations have not the most of that stuff out. Right, I don't know if you play there all eight plus plus animals, you know, but I think a solid B animal is about the worst and I would expect that anything I'm doing right now. Wow, which, yeah, like when you put it into perspective like we were saying earlier is much, much better than it was say 10 years ago. So, okay. I was always curious, do you think it's easier to produce the cut like to change the color or the pattern. Say you wanted to do stripes is it is it easy just to refine that stripe and then maybe add the color later, or are they equally as difficult to reproduce. Yeah, I'm not sure like the stripe one is a good example because we need to need to clean those up a little bit. And so the male that we use the first year wasn't the best one to do that, but I was desperate to get that something to lock that snake up and that's the only one that would. Those came out the way they did and it did improve their color and the striping stage good on the ones that had it has nice striping kind of thing. So I think that works. I would, in that situation, always go for color first, get them where you want them color wise. And actually the slow one that like is just pinpoint dead on the pattern that you're trying to achieve. You know, then it doesn't really matter what that thing colors up like you might as well keep that and try to breathe color into that particular snake. But if you're just getting variations like, Oh, I would like, I like it like this, but maybe a little more reduced or a little more of this or a little more than that. I would go ahead and infuse a color and come back to it. But notice with the zebras a lot like the color goes into those really easy. I was surprised because they're so ugly when they first came over here, you know, it's just scary. And, you know, then the first generation stuff over here anyway, not first generation zebra stuff, but the first generation stuff over here was pretty hit miss more miss than hit. I would say, you know, you still ended up with that brownish color eventually kind of thing. And nothing I hate worse than a brown jungle carpet. It's just the most disgusting thing in the history of the world. But then if you took those babies, those second generation babies and bred them into quality jungles the next time, it really did a good job of wiping that out. It was very, I was very surprised how like nice, what ours would be third generation from the original ones coming over. I was really impressed by how nice some of those turned out. And I know Nick does some stuff with CVR line stuff too with his zebras. And I've been seeing a couple of three of those lately and those are really super nice. And I know what Jason's doing now with the, like the clutch that he made the super from and stuff now that he's getting away from that first generation male like his stuff is looking really super nice. So it's very gratifying to know that that isn't that difficult because I think zebras are super cool. And if they was going to take five generations to get them from being ugly, then that was going to be very disappointing. Yeah. Well, since you brought up zebras, I mean, when it comes to zebras, what are your thoughts on one day producing that killer yellow super zebras? Do you think that that is possible? Anything's possible. I don't think it works quite the way I had hoped. I've seen enough of them now and they're definitely, they're definitely great, you know, great it. I've seen some. They're just like, what is the point of that? And I've seen some that's like, okay, you know, I get it. That's cool, you know, if you can tweak it a little bit kind of thing. But like I was talking to Jason a few months ago and he was kind of saying something that really kind of put a light bulb in my head where he was saying, like, I always kind of thought that the super zebra eliminated the black pattern. And I kind of considered it eliminating the black pattern and the black together simultaneously. But his thoughts were kind of like, it takes the pattern away, but it doesn't necessarily necessarily take that black away. It just kind of blends it in to the yellow. And so you get that kind of cool color, you know, and it's like a little more. So that being said, if that's true, you know, if you can reduce the black enough in the zebras, you know, and everything, then maybe you can minimize that and get the yellow. I know Nick has made some super does he's really, really proud of. I haven't actually seen them. But I just, yeah, they're pretty nice in my eye. The perfect one doesn't have that dust on its head and along its door. So, yeah, whether that can be made or not, I don't know. I hope so. I mean, if you're, if you're going to keep it, I think that you could possibly do it with Bakey. I mean, I know it's not a pure jungle anymore, but possibly you could do it with throwing jag in the mix but it seems to lighten up, but yeah, yeah, there's definitely, yeah, definitely cross ways you can go about it. Like, I always thought, like the albino thing made total sense and then I saw something the other day where people are saying they all die or something. I was like, no, that's right. But I don't know about that. But I don't know what that. Yeah, I didn't, you know, one of those rumor things. I don't know if it's true or not, but kind of deal, but that always made sense to me. I did have the, you know, this year I did, did a super zebra clutch with caramel and jag in the mix, and I did have two eggs that went bad. So, I don't, I think that might have to do with the jag, maybe the jag being mixed in there. I don't know, it's just, I don't know, but there wasn't any albino in there and the albino zebra jags that I had seem to be solid so. That's what's weird. I would think that if the albino super zebra was like lethal somehow, then there'd be something jacked up with the albino zebra. So, you know, kind of like I would jag is loopy and then the albino zebra's lethal, you would think something would be off with the albino zebra that you would say, right, maybe bringing these together isn't the best idea in the world. Right. But I haven't heard anything like that. I don't know. I don't have any. But not mine. So, you are just, right. So, yeah, I think the supers are harder to, I get the impression the supers are harder to hatch in general. Yes. It seems like there should be a lot more of them out there than there are. So, yeah, it could just be that, you know, it could just be dumb luck involved and blah, blah, blah. How many supers did you say you had out of that one? Just a one, right? Yeah, just a one. Just a one. And it had something weird going on with it. Yeah, well, it had the pigtail and then it had like what appears to be a lump in the middle, but it seemed to have gone down. But the snake seemed fine. I mean, the tail. I mean, that can, you know, it's moving around. I don't know. I think, I think what I hit is a super zebra, either caramel jag or a super zebra jag. That's what I think. Right. Because it's much lighter than what I've seen just straight super zebra's look. So, I don't know. We'll see. It almost, it almost was blackhead food because I don't know if it was, you know, just the, I didn't know if it would make it because of, I thought maybe someone's wrong with its heart, you know, because it was right around that. Right. Where I was swelling up. It wasn't like a final deal. It was like just an internal lump of something. No. Yeah. It had the pigtail, but I don't know. To me, that's not a deal breaker, but I guess for some people, you know, I wouldn't think I would like that though into the coastal stuff like that that would be less likely to get a big tail. Were they still related? Were they from the same clutch? No. No, they weren't related. Do you think the pigtail can be spread out? I'm saying like, Chris, do you think that the pigtail can be kind of corrected through different generations? And also, I was hoping so, but Eric's results kind of slap out in the same area. I was hoping it was a result. Just the in reading of the zebras in general, you know what I mean? Because they don't happen all the time. You know, Jason didn't get one. And, you know, I know Nick has got several that haven't had the pigtails, so at least it isn't 100% guaranteed it can happen kind of thing. But so if that's the case, I would think that you get them out across far enough and come back, then they would probably be fine. Yeah. Would you? If you got super zebras with pigtails, would you decide to keep the tails or if they're far enough back, would you knock the tails? Boy, I don't know. I mean, it would make sense to dock them, but I don't know if I could do that. You know what I mean? I'm kind of like squeamies little girl when it comes to show like that. I wouldn't want to cut the tail off of this to make. But if I get a man that did you, and she would probably go, but I don't. What was funny is that like a deep-seated ethical problem with it. Yeah. Yeah. Some people imagine shutting that stuff. They probably always stick and everything else. That'd be a pain. They might even get, it might even lose blood flow and fall off on its own of this real bad in the shedding. Because I've seen that happen where it just kind of gets stuck all the time and then eventually it'll just pinch itself off. Right. I'm seeing, honestly, I'm seeing enough variation in the pattern of the zebras. I don't even know. I'm sure someday I'll go for like a super, but that's really not my end game at all. I want to mess with the zebras themselves and not. I want to keep outcross them into brighter and brighter stuff and see what kind of twisted, curly Q stuff I can make. We made one that had a real bold stripe down its back last year. I kind of want to mess with that a little bit. I really like the ones that are super reduced with the crap ton of yellow. I'm more interested in zebras for their own sake than I am the super anyway. But that being said, if somebody makes a super sweet one, then I'll try to do it too. I think that if you took the zebra and really reduced down that black to like a pinstripe, almost somebody took a fine tip marker and drew on that pattern, I think that would be a stellar trick. We sold one to Bronja last year that is close to that is I've come. And I think just from the pictures he says, man, just like, Jesus, because it looks, if you just kind of glanced at it, you'd think it was a zebra jag, but it's a zebra. But it's probably 65, 75, 65, 70% yellow. And if the color hold on, that's going to be a crazy wicked snake. That's awesome. That's what I mean. There's a lot of cool stuff that can still be done with them, I think. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. What about when it comes to like reducing the pattern in, you know, doing like reduced patterned jungles? Have you, have you seen the results? Like, how does the genetics seem to work with that? Is it easy to reproduce? Are you getting a large percentage of the clutch turning out that way? Or is it similar to what you're seeing with the stripes? Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's fairly easy to replicate. You know what I mean? If you have a couple pretty reduced animals anyway, they usually all come out with varying degrees of reduction. You know, it's basically you're just making the bands a little bit wider is all you're doing. And so if the bands are, you know, two, three scales wider across, then that just makes a different look to the snake. But it seems like it's pretty, as far as my experience it goes, it wasn't like some kind of arduous process to really reduce them, to reduce them, reduce them, you know, to get them crazy. Then that'll take some work. And I think that's always, I think that's going to be wrapped up in a tipping. I think you're going to want to try to get them so tipped out that it almost looks solid. And so then that'll reduce the black that way. Kind of like, kind of like John's gamma jacks. You know, when you first see them, when they first hatch out, they look like jungles, really. But then that tipping fills in and those black saddles so intensely that you don't even, when you look at them, you don't even realize that they're banded even though they basically are. Right. So I'll try to do something like that with juggles themselves. That would be pretty cool. You know, one of the, one of the clutches that I was checking out on your website. You have it labeled as the head turner clutch. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, that's that female that picked up in 2011 from Dale Hoffman. He got a pair of holdback from Matt Turner, which, from his original shoe at stuff, and he bred him together. And then we swapped him out. I swapped him out of Brinkley 2011 for a female from his clutch from 2011. And it's really not fair to Dale, but I skipped him and went to Matt Turner because head turner sounds so cool. But it really has nothing but it really should be like, I'm not giving Dale any credit at all. But I just basically, I bought that snake in order to, because Matt Turner wasn't making jungles anymore at the time. And so I bought that snake just so I could call a clutch head turners. So I've been waiting four years to do it. So, and then it kind of pissed me off because Howard got some of our stuff, some of our Brinkley stuff from Julie. And then he's breeding that into some Turner stuff too. So he could say the same damn thing, which kind of like, I think I should like. Oh no, it ruined the whole thing. Exactly. But I'm not giving it Howard. So people have been making fun of me about that for four years, and then I finally did it. And I put it on the website that way, but I haven't really, like, I haven't really talked much about that clutch at all yet, just because I'm letting them color up a little bit before I really start springing them out. But I've been kind of hesitant to actually use the head turner thing. Like, as I've matured, it's become cheesier and cheesier in my mind to where now I don't even know. I probably still will, but I'll feel a tinge of nerdiness when I do it. That's fine. I mean, that's first time I've heard of somebody buying a snake, just so they can call it this when you produce it. I mean, that's just hilarious. Right. So it's like I'm going to buy Eric Burke's line stuff and name it something really weird, just so he can watch that go. Anyway, I went through that phase, like I named our zebra hocus, and then I named a female jungle jag, we held back focus because I was going to make a hocus pocus clutch zebra jag. But then the jag ended up an ugly doubt on me, so I never put the pair. So now I got this zebra named hocus and it makes absolutely no sense at all. No sense. That's awesome. Hi, Chris, we're going to go into a little bit of the carbon python market here, which is sometimes is a powder keg of a topic. We'll see how this goes. What are your thoughts about the current state of the market and how, and you've been in it for a while, how do you think it's changed for the good and for the bad in the last couple of years. It's hard for me because I'm kind of, I'm kind of out here just kind of doing my own thing. I don't really get too mixed up in it. Like we've been producing jungle since 2005 and we've charged pretty much the same within 50 bucks every year since. So I mean, I don't pay too much attention to what other people are charging for their stuff as far as that goes. I know like there's been times when people said, oh man, your stuff's too expensive, you know, like three, four years ago. I was getting at every once in a while and then now I get that our stuff's too cheap every once in a while. Because there's other people trying to get a little bit more than we do kind of thing, but I don't really let it affect what I do. Like the Zebra stuff I know has really plummeted, you know, but I mean it's always going to. I just, but I set my price at what I think they're worth and that's what I sell them at and that's just kind of it. I don't get too many people saying like, oh, I saw a Zebra for 300 bucks, so I want to buy one of yours for $300 kind of thing. But I think that's just because we've been around so long and we kind of have our own little base of people that kind of buy our stuff. And you know what, you know, we can think kind of know what we charge and if that's what they want, then that's what they have to pay for. So yeah, as far as that goes, I don't pay too much attention. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to the more stuff. Like I said, we do the zebras. I'm going to start messing with some albino stuff. Okay. Nothing to do with jungles, but I want to make those things like Ollie makes those red ones. Oh, yeah. And I think that's got to be, I know Jason sent some red stuff over there, you know, back in the day kind of deal. And since it came from a JAG or whatever I think by looking at it, the best I could tell, like his first ones were JAG, so there's coastal in there. So I'm thinking it's got to be that red coastal stuff Jason messes with that makes them. So I'm thinking maybe the red is babies and they turn different colors if they get older because I'm melanin creeping in kind of changes that red to a rusty brown or whatever it does to it. So I'm like, well, maybe what the albino gene in it took that out. Maybe it stays red. And so, yeah, I think it is because Paul, if you look at Paul's albinos, his stuff is usually wider. And he doesn't use red babies. So that can be. Yeah, so I mean, I just want to see if it works or not. It'll be a decade before I ever make one, but it made me, it made me put a coastal in my house, which I haven't had one of those in my house. And I bought another one from Aaron a couple weeks ago, like a caramel one. I was like, well, I might as I do that. And I bought a female just albino. So I wasn't just making heads until the end of time, I could actually make some albinos and I'm thinking, Oh geez, do I need another male albino or am I spreading this one to thin. And so, right. But yeah, time will tell on that. As far as those go, like somebody said something about albino market crashing or something not too long ago. I saw on Facebook, I think. And, you know, my thoughts on our like albinos are really cool and they don't really do anything stupid. You know, they don't have weird tails and they don't have loopy loops and stuff. And I think I really needed to have one and own it to really appreciate how cool they were. And so I kind of like the idea of them being like a four or $500 snake. I think that's a good price point that might get people interested in carpets, you know, that maybe wouldn't have been before. Right. Yeah, I mean, they really aren't cool albino. I mean, they're a little bit different than other python albino about albino pythons. Right. There's no way to really describe it. Like I've seen a hundred of pictures of them, you know, and everything. But until you actually have one in your collection and you're kind of watching it. I like to take my camp gun and shoot it at their heads because then they glow like a red and weird. And just stuff like that. They're just kind of neat snakes glow. I'm going to put a glow stick in my albino's cage now just to see how this goes. But yeah, and they're just cool to have around. I was surprised by how much I liked it. I kind of bought one just to see. I'm going to buy one and have it around just to see if I can think of anything to do with it. And there really isn't much you can do with it. There really isn't an ugly one out there. I don't think, you know, I personally don't really care for like. The orange and white banded ones as much. I like them as they kind of just kind of keep that kind of yellow you and hard to see the pattern in them. That's the way I like them. I was like about the only thing you can really do. I could probably contrast them up pretty good if I put jungle in them, but I don't really want to mess up my jungle stuff doing that. Yeah, so I was like, well, maybe I can make them red. That'd be kind of cool. I could look like a new thing. That'd be cool. I wouldn't want to normally do the jungle, the Darwin stuff, but Eric just roped me into it. I mean, he keeps like going like here, take this and I'm like, oh, all right. And now I'm screwed. So, you know, take this, take this zebra head albino. I'm like, why? Oh, it's cool. I'll take it. Now I'm doomed. But yeah, avoid it as best you can. Yeah. But anyway, Chris, I know you have an announcement here for us. You're going to talk to us about something you got. A project you got cooking that you brought me and Eric in on as well. So you want to go ahead and talk about that for a bit? Yeah. I mean, I don't really, it really shouldn't be like accredited to me any more than anybody else, but I know Jason and I were talking about it for quite some time. And you can probably tell, like, I set that up like months ago or whatever. Yeah. But, and then, you know, Jason talked to you guys and it sounded like you guys were talking about the same thing. So we did not do it together, kind of deal. But yeah, so we set up that. We're your direct classified page on Facebook. And so, I actually, shortly before I got on the phone with you guys, I opened it up to the public. So, anybody that looks, I have to remember how it's actually said. It's like breeder, direct, more really Python classifieds or something like that. But I'm sure we'll all throw links up to it and everything. Oh, it'll be awesome. Yeah, yeah. Right. But basically, just the idea is just the only people that post ads on that ads on there are the breeders of the snakes themselves. Okay. So it just, it just eliminates a lot of the confusion of like, oh, I bought this snake as a jungle, but I don't know, you know, and I think this might be an IJ coastal cross, but I'm not sure. 100 dollars, you come pick it up in Virginia. You know what I mean? That kind of crap. I just get sick of looking at it. And you have to wade through that stuff. You know, and it's not, and like Jason and I were talking, you know, it really isn't so much for us. I don't really advertise outside of Facebook, just on my own personal page. I don't really advertise snakes all that often. But just for us as a community to kind of show what we're doing kind of collectively and give people a place to actually buy a snake where they can talk to the person that has the snake in their house. You know, so it isn't like, yeah, I bought this snake six months ago and I don't really know who I bought it from or what exactly it is, and it eats my sometimes and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or, you know, I'm gonna have to get back to you because I didn't breed it, but I'm selling it to them and I'll get back to you and let you know what it eats. You know, right, stuff like that. I just, I was just like, you know, let's shine the best light on our community as we possibly can. And just kind of highlight. So, you know, we made a point of inviting a bunch of breeders last night to it in like kind of a little soft opening kind of deal, I guess you'd call it and let some people put some ads up, you know, and all of us made a point of putting an ad or two up on there. And just, you know, so it has some content, you know, when people first start checking it out and stuff, but I just want it to be a place where we can kind of show off our stuff and sell it. You know, like you guys have like pick of a week and everything and it's cool and all the different stuff you see and it's, you know, but you don't sell stuff on there and you don't want people selling stuff on that. Obviously. Yeah, right. Yeah, we don't. Yeah. And there's plenty of, you know, outlets for people with stuff that they didn't produce that they want to sell, you know, they got to change in plans or whatever, and decide that they need to unload an animal or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that. Obviously, and there's plenty of places to do that. But if someone's just specifically like, okay, I really want a caramel jack, you know, or whatever, then they can go there. And they'll see a breeder that actually produces them. You know, they'll be able to tell you, yeah, this is a caramel. This is what the parents look like. You know, this is this. This is that, you know, it hatched out in May and it's eaten blah, blah, blah. This many times and I can open a tub and snap a picture of it on my phone right now. If you want to see it, you know, that kind of stuff, just a much more professional kind of vibe is kind of what I wanted to have. Okay. So are there any kind of rules that go along with this that everybody should know? I know you mentioned saying that you have to produce the animal. So are there any other ones we need to kind of have underway here? Not really, you know what I mean? Like, I think we talked about it a little bit. It's more really specific. So, but like I said, you know, if somebody, like a marillion breeder for a say that advertises on there and stuff a lot and everything pumps out like some white lips or something, you know, wants to come up there. I don't think anybody's going to have a cowl or anything like that. You know, but I don't really, you know, I don't think any of us want, you know, 25 ball python ads up there or anything like that. Yeah. That's kind of like kind of like a gray area, but, you know, I want to keep it 90%. We're really a python. So, but other than that, no, and I'm, we're not going to screen ads or anything like that. Like, you don't have to wait for like approval or anything for them to show up. But if I see, you know, somebody sounds on that they didn't produce, you know, just like, then I'll delete it. Or one of the admins, well, you know, whether it be me or Jason, we're going to have more admins eventually kind of deal. Jason just told me to hold off because he says it's going to be a spam and tested cluster mess at first. So it's better to have as few people looking at it. In order to keep the porn videos to a minimum, we have to. Yeah. Keep that narrow down. We reject probably about 20 people a day from the pick of the week. And every single one is a spammer and that eventually one person will get through and they'll blow up the pick of the week. With something dumb, so. Right. The constant. Some black. Yeah. There were some poor bastard who wanted to get put on the pick of the week. And he said something about how he didn't know or whatever he wanted to get approval and he sent me his name. And he accidentally misspelled his name. So when I searched him, it came up as like a shoe sales. And I'm like, Oh, no, this guy is done. And then I talked to him a little bit more. He goes, No, no, this is how you spell my name and please don't ban me. I'm like, Oh, I'm sorry. You got to watch to don't send me shoes. So yeah, it's. It's going to be a little bit of a struggle, but I like this idea of having. Direct from the breeder and it does kind of cut back on the. Snakes that hop around from place to place to place to place place and it's just kind of like if I want to go direct from somebody. This is where I would go. And that's how I buy my snakes nowadays. If I, you know, I fully blame Eric for this bullshit. If I want to buy it, I have to go to the guy who produces it the best and I got to spend all my lunch money on it and then run away from my snake room. So yeah, I mean, you know, this is kind of exactly what we need right now. So I enjoy it. So right. And cool. I think there's going to be plenty of price points on there and stuff, but it definitely isn't going to be like a bargain basement kind of thing. You know, I mean, it's people that take pride in what they do and, you know, and. Charge appropriately, I guess I should say, I mean, yeah. To given. So yeah, I mean, I don't know. We've talked about market stuff on the show a million times, but like, I sometimes I wonder if like $500 is that. Golden, you know, that golden price point, because. It seems, you know, like you said earlier, it seems that jungles seem to have hit that, you know, you know, maybe maybe not so good jungles might go for like 350. But like really stellar jungles or like 500 and they seem to sell all day long. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah, I mean, if you're willing to hold them for, you know, a year or so and let them color up, then yeah, they're $500 snakes all day long. It seems like. I'm never willing to do that personally, but I know. I know a lot of people do. But like I told, like Kebel and I said, since day one, it's like, I just didn't sell 10 snakes at 300 bucks and try to sell one at three grand. You know, yeah. Yeah, just easier. And they tend to leave more. So, right, staring at you, you know, right. Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's what we've always focused on is right in that sweet spot 500, you know, or there are a couple hundred bucks more than that and stuff, but for the most part, we try to keep right. And that sweet power people can afford it without like, feeling like they got to take a second mortgage out on their house or, you know, do 18 month payment plans. Right. Yeah. And if I started breeding really fancy, if I started breeding really fancy stuff like that, that was really expensive like that, you know, then I'm just, I nobody knows me from Adam, as far as doing that. So it's just like, you know, I might as well be like a newbie coming on, like trying to sell like ghost carpets or something, you know, because it's like, you know, trying to get five grand for a snake or whatever. But so, yeah, I personally just like to stay in my little niche. I go out every once in a while. I always come back home. It seems like, but yeah, I just kind of like staying in my own little corner and trying to make black and yellow snakes. Well, if it's what you're known for, it's your bread and butter. Well, I mess with it. So, yeah. I mean, with you, I think I said this before you came on, but do you find that it's, I mean, obviously, you know, I don't know if you get the itch like everybody else gets the itch that you want to work with this and work with that. And it's that you sort of say very selective and your collection is, I don't want to say small, but it's very select, you know, you remind me of like, we had John on the show like, I mean, some of the quality of animals he has is amazing. But the actual size of this collection is, is, you know, very select. I mean, do you find that that's an advantage or, I mean, do you purposely keep it that way or is that? Yeah, I mean, basically I have X amount of cages. So, I mean, every year at this time, I'm stressing like, okay, I'm going to keep these five snakes is hold back. Okay, they can live in this rack for X amount of months and then I can move them to these two footers, but then I got to move the ones in the two footers to four footers. And it's like, you know what I mean, it's a very stressful thing for me. I just don't like, so I basically forced myself into like, okay, you have X amount of cages. You know, I don't want, you know, 55 gallon aquarium stuck with like bookshelves in my living room kind of thing, you know, so it's like, right, X amount of space is what I got. And this is what I'm going to use. So, if I want to expand anything, I have to give it a lot of cage based thought. So that's really kind of trim my ambitions a lot. There was a time where I mean, people were getting into any stupid thing we could possibly think of, you know, it was just, we had all kinds of just weird stuff. And for one reason or another there to your technique, like we tried white lips two or three times, I didn't love the look of them. You know, it's just been fascinated by them. There's a pet store back in Iowa, like 20 years ago and they had just a bulk pair of them and they would later on the, and all coiled up and they just looked like they ground effects or something glowing from their like orange, you know, kind of belly kind of bled up and to the ear of essence. And so we tried those two or three times, but they're too smart. They like figured out ways to pull down like my cage lights and nothing irritates me more than a snake that constantly figured out how to pull its cage like that. And so then we'll film and in a couple, three years ago by and I'll be like, man, let's try those white lips again. I think I can put like 17 screws in this light and then that'll be fine. Yeah, tough this wire here and blah, blah, blah. And then same thing happens. And yeah. I'm like walmas reason why I just sent we have a pair of walmas, but we bought from that turn away, way, way back and I got them to breed once, and she had like three eggs or something and I tried to breed them every year. But whatever reason I can't breed a walnut python to save my life. So finally, I got set up with those and I sent them to Jason like a couple weeks ago and I'm just like here, if you can ever get babies out of them. I might take a couple babies kind of deal, but I just want no part of them anymore. And so I carpet to the one consistent. I love blood pythons too. My man has really kind of taken over that stuff. She messes with those a lot more than I do now, but I do love blood python. I love like a lot of the weird golden eyes, you know, and all that stuff is really wicked. I would love to get those sometimes. And now those are seeming to become affordable or borderline affordable and stuff. So I might mess around with that a little bit. But every time I leave carpets are start to focus my attention on something other than carpets. I shouldn't say leave them, but add other things. I always start to think like, wow, I could put another jungle in that cage instead. Why? So junk jungles are if you that's kind of like, yeah, you don't see yourself getting into like maybe inland or Darwin. Absolutely not. I have absolutely no interest. But inland. I do like. Yeah. Inlands. I think there's a lot of potential with those. I think if you could find the right pair and get them going and see if you can clean up that little bit of dust that falls on top of those gray blue scales if you can get that to go away. Eventually those things would just be the bee's knees. So I would like to get a pair of those. I was real tempted. Somebody was selling like an adult pair a few weeks ago and I was just like, I had to cut my own hand off to keep from buying them. Because my mom was just super sweet looking like, and I was just like, wow, but I was trying. I'll get some baby someday and spend 15 years trying to figure out how to breed them and go that route. But I'm trying to figure out their life right. Yeah. Diamonds. We have a pair of diamonds that we bought in 2006. From a place called Gulf Coast Reptiles. So I'm sure you guys know the whole deal of that back in 2006. It was. Great. You know, I contacted them. They showed me pictures of the parents. Everything seemed totally legit and stuff and they looked as much like diamonds as any diamonds I've ever seen. But then in subsequent years after that, they started making them that look more and more like jungle crosses and then they just got this insanely bad reputation. Oh, it's a Gulf Coast Island. It's junk. It's a cross. It's a mud. It's a blah, blah, blah. And I don't know if that's true or not. And I don't know if it was. Maybe they changed their stock. I know. Ben and Justin got one from that same clutch that I did. You know, so I mean, at the time, the thought process was that they were real diamonds. But now it's pretty well established that nobody thinks they are. So it's kind of like, I don't know what to do with those. You know, I'd like to try to breed them. But what the hell do I do with them if I do? Yeah. Well, these are Gulf Coast diamonds. Oh, I don't know these, you know. So I'm attempting to be. Oh, yeah. It's tempting to just be like, oh, they're 88%ers. You know, screw you. They're 88%ers. But I don't know that. I don't know that either. So I mean, God, that's just as much of a lie as anything else. So you can be selling. Yeah. So that's my right. And being what I'm at now, it'd be very difficult to cycle on, I think, properly. How do you give them a winter? Why do you give the diamonds and the breadles a winter? I did, but I did put my feet. I pair bread like last year out into the garage for a few weeks. I'll let them sit out there like in January. And so they got down. Oh, around 60 or so kind of thing. And I did get a clutch out of them. For the first time, I think they're 2004, 2005 animals or something like that. And that was the first time we were going to have a clutch out of them. But I don't think I'm ever going to do that again because they're painting the ass. Were the babies that painted the ass or the breeding? Oh, yeah, the bait. Well, I mean, the breeding, she took longer than I expected her to lay. So that was very stressful for me. It seems like she ran into like the 40s on the day that she finally dumped her eggs and ended up in bump the heat up in her cage to like mid to upper 90s where a nest box was. And then she finally like dumped them. I don't know if it's a coincidence or if she actually needed it. That warm kind of deal. But then, yeah, the babies, I didn't get a very good fertility in the clutch. I think I ended up with 10 or 11 red lie and I had at least that many slugs in that clutch. And then they're really pretty, really nice. I mean, our pair is a really nice pair of red lie. And the babies came out like super pretty looking and stuff. But just getting them to eat. And it wasn't like, it wasn't like a jungle. Like they're like flighty little scared little bastards. And so you open that tub and they just dart out and oh God, it was horrible. Once they started eating, they were fine. But they're just skittiest little. I'm just like, this is just too time consuming. And that's what these little worms darting out of these tubs all the time. But I still have the pair. So in a couple years, I might forget how horrible it was and try it again. Yeah. Maybe get that was my experience. I think I ended up having to get them live too, which I enjoy. That's what I had to do with my guys when they were when my breadels hatched. None of them would take the frozen food. You had to give them life, which like I don't feed life. So it's really annoying for me to have to go out and buy a bunch of baby mice and keep them alive to feed everybody. So, oh yeah, I live pretty much in the middle of sand and dead brush. So I mean, it's like a 40 minute drive for me to like go get like live rodents. And then what you pay for like live rodents from a pet store. It's like these three weeks of feeding and it's like I'll be lucky to break even on this night. Right. Wow. That's true. I'm pretty lucky I have a mat. He has a breeder, a rodent breeder that comes to his house actually. He's a local guy and I just tack on to his order and I found that with especially with the albino stuff, that same problem. It's probably because I guess it hasn't been bred enough enough generations in captivity, but they're like a little, little trickier to get started. A little more for the finicier, I guess, but put the live in there and good to go. And then, you know, you do that like three times. I would have known that about $2,000 ago. Sorry. No, I always have a couple of jungles that I ended up having to do that with too. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think we had like 55 jungles out this year or something and I got four of them that I had to give a live mileage to. Which is very irritating, but it has to be done from time to time. Yeah, it's the nature of the beast, I guess. Well, do you have any plans already that you know for your upcoming season? Like for 20, what are we, 2016 now? Yeah. Any thoughts on what we're going to do? Well, we're going to, like I said, send the male zebra up. We've been breeding him into our CVR, like a wrinkly baby the last couple of years. And now we're going to try to bring them into nightshade, which was a highlighter animal, and see what that does. And if I ever do want to go for a super, I'm going to want a different, a little bit different bloodline before I try going back together with them. So we're going to try that. Chris will probably do jungle jags again. He has a baby coming. I think next month. So like this year was kind of a wash for what he was doing up there, just because of all the planning around stuff like that. But I might do the ridges of hard clutch again. I need to wait a few months and see what these babies turn out like. I'm going to do some of that shoot with female again. Probably something different, but I don't know what male yet. And I don't know. I think I'll be capable of doing five jungle pairings. I'll probably end up in new four. That's what we did this year. And go from there, kind of sucks, because when we moved down here, I missed a whole generation. You know, I'm adding a new female every year that finally matures, but that 2012 year was a bust. That's the one that will be like borderline coming up. But now like I'm going to have like a void in my progress here coming up. Yeah, I mean, probably four jungle parents. I might mix up a little bit. I still work on the solid black stuff with the shoe at line and the CVR line mixed together. I still try to get that solid black banded. Plain old school classic jungle look with those. I'll probably mix and match those up again some way to try to create another clutch of those. And see what this one looks like. If they're if they actually yellow up the way they look like they're going to, then I'll probably do that again. I think we're going to get the female year off this coming year. I got a male that held back from this year, but from last year, so that'll be right next year. And that's going to line up with some highlighter blood stuff to really try to brighten them up a bit. And it's one that looks like it's more receptive to throwing some striped babies. I think not this coming season, but the one after that is when like the stripe stuff that we do is really going to take a giant leap forward. Cool. Very cool. So I can't remember Chris. I think we talked about lineage enough Casper over in Europe on me to talk about lineage. I think we got enough of the Viking. Yeah, I mean, you know, he can go and do his Viking stuff for out of him. Will you be attending Tinley this year? I want to, ironically enough, if I don't, it'll be Tinley's fault that year before I moved down here, like I said, we were at that show right before we moved down here. Amanda and I made a little surprise and her name is Tinley actually since that's where she was put together at. And so she kind of keeps me a little more homebound than I'd like to be these days. But she can open it off, but I might be able to sneak up there. I'd say probably 75% chance I'll be there. I don't know about Kevin, but we get sitting across the world all the time. So he might be able to drop in as well. Would you be attending or vending at the show? Oh, yeah, no, I don't think I have enough left. But then to set up, even if I want to, that's such a pain in the ass because I have to fly. So I have to ship Jeremy Snakes. And, you know, by the time you pay for a table and pay for shipping both ways and everything else, it's just like you better sell some damn carpets. I can tell you that much. You're freaking go, yeah, exactly. If I go, I'll probably just act like I'm chasing a little bitch and hang out behind his table. That was me less than the Friday night and Saturday night activities than I will for the actual show, but I don't get a chance to see Jason or Julie. And then it sounded like Sloop was going to be there and I haven't seen him in a couple of years. I would like to do that. I don't know, I might try to talk. If I end up in go, I might try to talk Luke into going. Even though he'd be nice, but about carpets anymore. It would be cool to hang out with him again for a couple of days. Yeah. Yeah, he's a cool guy. That'd be cool. So for Eric's sake, because he's into these things way more than I am, what kind of blood python's did you keep? What do you have right now? Right now we just got, what do we have? We have a pair of albinos. Oh, key positives and a pair of normals. And we bread and made albinos a couple of years ago with the pair that we have. And then this year, Amanda's like dead set on one of those red headed and looking just almost, you know, but they have that kind of reddish blushing to their head. So she thought the best way to do that would have been breathing our female albino and normal male. So she produced a clutch of heads hoping to see that snake. I'm not sure if she can tell if it's going to do that or not yet. She's picked out a couple that she likes. And then she has a black, too, with some hot and short tail. She really wants to get into where she put my piece of paper. She wrote down how to say "batic" and it wasn't the way that I said. Batices. Right. Yeah, I got it. So she really wants to get in. She wants to get into that. So I was lucky enough to be able to trade some carpets for Baitrix, which is a Batik and a Matrix. Man, that's badass snake. Oh, okay. Cool. So what does that do when the ivory pops up then? Is that that pixel thing or something? The pixel is the golden eye and the Batik together. Okay. So coincidentally enough, the Batik is very similar to the zebra. And if you breed a Batik to a Batik, you get a patternless yellow type of snake that has kink tail problems. Lovely. That sounds really good at work, haven't I? Yeah. Now, those golden eyes and stuff and the magpies, I've only seen pictures of them from the barkers when they're babies. Do they stay like that white or do they kind of yellowish out as they get older? I think they have some that do yellow out, but I think that there are some people that are working with them that really have really nice examples. It's probably no different than what you're seeing with jungles and stuff like that. Right. You know, depending on who you're getting it from. I know Matt Turner, he works with the lily line, which I don't know. It just does something to them. Owen gave away his lily line matrix. He just gave it away. He just gave it away. I did not choose a hard, evil thing, but I didn't give her away. She's at Matt's place to breed. I'll give her away at the end of the year after I get the babies because I hate that thing. So, but yeah, I didn't give her away. They suck, deal them with when they got any kind of attitude at all. Thank you. I mean, there's no predictable. Thank you. You know what a carpet's going to, you know, I mean, once you've been around carpets enough, you really don't ever have to take a bite from a carpet because you didn't know how they act. But those bloods, man, they start crashing around and shit. That's horrible. It's funny because at carpets best, we had lawn and Matt Matolo over here to check out all the animals. And of course, they opened up the bin with the blood and she's flipping out. And the two blood guys are like, I'm not touching that. I'm like, what? Come on. I don't want it to. Yeah. I remember, like, I can't remember, like, right? I'm an article the barkers wrote in reptiles magazine in the 90s or something. But somebody was talking about how they could, like, like their strike had enough power to break a rabbit's back and stuff. And I was just like, man, I just never want to get hit full on that one of those things. No. No. And they don't. Mine that are bad. Like my albinos are not pleasant, I would say. But they don't really strike. But if you go to pick them up, they start thrashing around. And that's what I hate. It's the thrashing around stuff. You know what I've been told? You know, I'm controlling them with carpet hooks probably don't help either. Yeah. That's what I was just going to say. When you approach it, like you're trying to pick up a carpet python or, you know, any kind of Morelia. They're just different. Like, I was picking them up with hooks. Matt smacks me in the back of the head. What are you doing, man? You can't do that. You got to, they got to feel like support. His stuff is super tame. And he's actually, when we were, I was over there taking pictures for him and before the snake, like way before the snake would, you know, like, they like lunged out at you. He would just, he's basically saying, all right, move back, move back. And then we move back and then shoot out and then, you know, go back and that was back to just in the coil and, you know, I don't know. They're just different, you know, it's just a different, different, different snake. So. Right. Yeah. You can do the one thing and then when something different happens, it freaks you out. Yeah. Yeah. There's no doubt about that. I had a pair like back, I think I bred them in 2004. But the pair I had way back then were just normals, but they were just very mellow, just big old fat slugs. Yeah, you just, they wouldn't even strike and rap prey. You just have to throw a dead rat in front of their face. And, you know, so you just pick them up like you'd pick up, you know, I don't know, a 10 pound sausage, basically, is how you'd pick them up. You wouldn't even cross your mind that they would bite you. That's what I would use to. Yeah. Right. And then I got one of those albinos and, um, part of Miss Babies, you know, and yeah, I'm not a real big like, I can't even take my pet out and handle it kind of guy. So, I mean, I'd pay it, you know, minimum amount of attention. All of a sudden, you know, things like three foot long and I was just like, Oh, you're a psycho bitch. That's good to know. Nice. And then usually whenever that happens, then it becomes Amanda's project, whether she wants them or not. There you go. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. She's all you. Right. Well, it's the, uh, the thing is that what always threw me is that it feels like there should be more snakes. So I'm used to an animal with that girth should be like a retic or an anaconda or a berm. We're like, I gotta worry about the extra 10 feet of the thing that should be right out of the place with the blood. It just kind of ends. And I'm like, there should be more of you to handle and gain pain. And don't try to like around. More of you further away from your head. Exactly. Yes. Further down. Yeah. Nope. Nope. Right there. So, yeah, I, I don't have any. And I'm kind of happy about that right now. So, but she'll be coming back along with the little God, I do not hope I get a whole clutch of like evil things. So tiny little ones, the ones that we had to this year, like Amanda got bit by one before he even left the egg. The hell she was moving the egg in a bitter finger. But, um, they hatched and when we sexed, um, Kepble flew down about a month ago and we had a big snake sexing party, which we do every year. It's always a great time of species food in your face. But, um, and they were just evil aliens then. And they're very difficult to sex like you pretty much can't problem. You have to look at weird little pink things. And so that gets very confusing for me. But, um, they're just evil. And yeah, they don't, they don't dribble piss at you at that point. They like spray at least three feet of urine when you're doing it. And, um, quite young, pissing all over you. But now, like, I was just in there today. And Amanda was cleaning their tubs and she just reaches in there, grabs them, set them on the floor and clean their tub and puts them back in and they don't do anything. I'm just like, gee, what's the deal? Why were they so mean to me? But she just says you just work with them a little bit when they're this age and they're fine. And apparently she's right. So, yeah, I had to do all the work. So, I had to, I think you got to get them. I don't think you break them once they reach a certain age. They're just done. Do you guys keep them in tubs like adults and tubs? I do. I kept mine in a 41 court and Eric has tubs for everything. So, what? Okay. So, like a 41 court, like, sterile light or something. I'm looking, I want to put mine in tubs. I had a 41 court, I had a 41 court rack. But the problem is that I wish I had more headroom for her in that it was good floor space. But, you know, when she puffed out or she rammed herself into her hide box or her water bowl, there wasn't a lot of headroom. So, I would almost want to go a little bit bigger. I know Eric has not freedom biggers, right? What do you have? No, I have vision, but vision makes up a bow. Which is, it's almost like a four foot cage floor size with, it's higher than a CB 70. I know Matt uses that same size tub for his stuff, but he uses freedom breeders. Okay. And he has some of the tubs from the people that break the racks. Yeah. You can order the tub separately from vision. I know vision sells them separately. Yeah, I contact because I'm going to have to make something because I'm going to have to have mine pull them out the long way. You know, I'm going to have to make a way so you have to pull them out the long way just because of my space constraints. And I've looked and I called like the ARS because that's how that they sold the tubs individually. I can't remember exactly what size they were. They wanted like 80 bucks a tub. And I was like, Oh, what the hell? Do they clean themselves? Right. It had like, it had, what you call it, like a little window in the front. So I guess that made it fancy, but I couldn't use the window anyway because I'd be pulling them in from the other side. So it would be pointless. Yeah, check out vision. And then also, if you go to a blog, Python's dot com, which is Karen, Karen. She has the they use like those Christmas tree tubs. Yeah, big ones. Yeah, which is pretty. I don't know if you're making a rat bag. Yeah, right. Right. That they use they use something like that. But I think I think most most people use that that for lack of I know Vin Russo uses it for for his bows. They're like the perfect perfect size. Right. I just I keep I have them all in cages now, but I fight humidity so bad here. That my tub makes a lot more sense for them and they never move from where they're at in the cage anyway. So I don't really need the kind of space that I'm giving them. Yeah. Yeah, why waste the cage space. You can put a jungle in here for more jungle. More jungle. My mind. Exactly. Wow. This is the time of year that I'm thinking about shit like that. So how can build your rack for these bloods because of humidity, not because I need the cages. Yeah. Rack to the bloods. If I shave three inches off this wall, I can get more cages and get another cage in here. Exactly. Yeah, I got it now. Closet doors. Who needs closet doors? Who needs doors? It's like a whole other room. If you take these doors off. Oh my god. Now you guys are thinking like snake breeders. I like it. There you go. I threw my house down here. And that was. Yeah, when I bought the house down here, that was the main thing I looked at. Every house I looked at, right. Room big enough to hold a majority of my snakes because that's what I care about. That is exactly what I think the living room is. Yeah. Who gives a damn. Yeah. Show me the basement. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Kitchen. Yeah, whether we have one or not. I don't really care about how big is the room. Yeah. Hashtag her for problems. Yeah, exactly. Oh, we did get a kitchen. That's good. I was concerned about that after a week after we bought the house. We're not going to put all the frozen rodents if we don't have a kitchen. Exactly. Thank you. Awesome. Well, we are winding down on time off. Why don't you throw your info out there. Chris, your website, email, have people get in touch with you, et cetera, et cetera. The easiest way to get ahold of me is just on Facebook on a messenger thing. That's pretty much how I do like 90% of my conversation. Gotcha. You can get ahold of us. There's a contact page on our website at www.anoreptiles.com. The Facebook page is head on a reptile, and then my name is Chris. Windows R and the EOS. I'm sure everybody's running for a piece of paper to write that down. That's my email address too. Chris.Rindles@anoreptiles.com. Yeah. But I mean, it seems like 90% of people just messaged me on Facebook. Except if you messaged me on Facebook, messaged me, don't messaged me. I'm not going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. I'm going to messaged me on Facebook. 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So it's caramel head obino and yeah it's over on the maralia python breeder what was the name of it page again breeder classifieds breeder direct the breeder direct read reader direct maralia pythons yeah classified yes so I will also be given Owen some some babies that take the hamburg so if there's something that you're interested in we can we can get it to you there just get in contact with me either on Facebook or you can send me an email at eberalia.com and hamburg is august first this saturday right okay yep this saturday bust out the new one and then like it's make sure you take some pictures right i will report okay october third like i said is the north west carpet fest it just got changed dogtailer is agreed to host it they're doing the potluck style dinner let's see what else uh get in contact with a through facebook where you can go to the north west carpet fest facebook site she's looking to get a number of attendees and they're also doing an auction so if you want to donate something just get in contact with her and you'll work it all out um that's all i got cool uh what i got is you can go to rogue-reptiles.com check out all the stuff we got going on rogue it is it is up to date with babies we have for sale and like eric said i will be at the we're vending the august first hamburg reptile show that is this saturday uh you want to uh pick up a baby at the show let us know if you're coming to see us at the show let us know beforehand so make sure everything everything we were interested in will come with us uh we bring the tigers the caramel jags uh some of eric stuff and then some zach stuff too so i was gonna be jungles ij's um head for hip eponymous everything so it'll all be there um so definitely stop by the table and i promise we will never lose our table again so we will be at hamburg for the rest of our lives god damn it so i've no idea where the table is anymore i've no idea what table i'm gonna be at i'm hoping because uh matt says he wants to get there early and tell Denise to put me behind him so that he and i can help each other out so i'm hoping that's what ends up happening because i'd be totally fine with that so we'll see if uh so i don't know where i'm gonna be so you guys may have to just kind of walk around for a little bit until you uh find our table um yep and that's uh pretty much all i got you also go to uh road reptiles at facebook.com just search for road reptiles and uh give us a like there um that's all i got and that's all we have for you guys tonight so what we will say is thank you all for listening and we'll catch everybody here next week for some more more elia python radio good night hey chad brown here you may remember me as a linebacker in nfl whereas a reptile breeder and the owner of proge ox i've been herping since i was a boy and i've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles i also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist which is why my partner robin and markeland and i create the reptile report the reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information we encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you the reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free you're a buyer or breeder you got to check out the reptile report marketplace the marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling destination full of features to help put you in touch with the perfect deal find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system searched by sex weights morph or other keywords and use our buy-it-now option to buy that animal right now go to marketplace dot the reptilereport.com and register your account for free be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum mat it also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace facebook page buyer and selling you ship your reptiles dot com take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates ship your reptiles dot com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully use ship your reptiles dot com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates the materials need to ship the reptile successfully live customer support in our live on time arrival insurance program we got you covered visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals click on the link to the marketplace find that perfect pet or breeder then visit ship reptiles dot com to ship that animal anywhere in the united states we are your one stop shop for everything reptile related [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]