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The morph highlight show #2- Tiger carpet pythons
In this morph highlight episode we will be talking about the tiger morph with the guy that put tigers on the map, Jason Baylin.
We will be talking about the history, genetics and the future of this morph in the carpet python world.
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Hey Chad Brown here, you may remember me as a linebacker in NFL or as a reptile breeder in their own reproach ox I've been herping since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptile I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist Which is why my partner Robin and Markham and I created the reptile report the reptile report is our online News aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world There's the reptile report.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news photos and links so we can feature Outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you the reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business And the best part is it's free you're a buyer or a breeder You got to check out the reptile report marketplace the marketplace of the reptile world's most complete buying and selling Destination full of features to help put you in touch with a perfect deal find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system Search by sex weights more other keywords use our buy-it-now option to buy that animal right now Go to marketplace dot the reptile report calm and register your account for free Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens to each shipping label You book use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum Add also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page Byron are selling you ship your reptiles.com take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates ship your reptiles Dot com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully use ship your reptiles Dot com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates the materials need to ship the reptile Successfully live customer support in our live on time arrival insurance program We got you covered visit the reptile report comm learn or share about the animals click on the link to the marketplace find that Perfect pet or breeder then visit ship reptiles calm the ship that animal anywhere in the United States We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You You Welcome to Moralea Python Radio with your host, Eric Berg, and Owen McIntyre. Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of Moralea Python Radio. Tonight we're going to be doing the Morph highlight show number two. This time we're focused on Tiger Carpet Python. It's probably my favorite, and I think Owen probably yours as well, correct? It comes with the territory of having Hamburg as your home-based show and poking around Jason Bailin's table like while I was in college. So it's kind of like you almost have to have a love for Tiger Carpet Python. So yeah, I definitely like these guys. And it's cool because I've actually sought out a lot of the original stuff. I have the Bavarium magazine that we're probably going to be talking about at some point today. So yeah, it's cool. Yeah, the last time we did the JAG episode, we didn't have anybody with us. But I think with this episode, in particular, the Tiger Carpet, I think one gentleman comes to name his name is Jason Bailin, and he'll be joining us in a couple minutes. Since he was the guy that sort of is the founder of the project at the beginning and sort of put them on the map, who better to talk to it about. It seems to me like, I don't know, it seems like Tiger's really aren't getting their dude that they deserve as of late, and we're going to change that tonight. And by the end of the show, everybody's going to be running out to get Tiger Carpets. We're going to talk about-- Coincidentally, I have some for sale, if anybody is looking, but that's beyond the point. So that's true. That's true. I'm bored all mine, so... We're going to talk about the past, the history of the morph, some of the genetics that's going on. I think we've talked about them in shows past, but we'll hit on that, so we'll hit on all the info. Some of the pairings that have been done, what the different lines are and what makes a Tiger Carpet a Tiger Carpet, and I have an opinion on that, and I think you guys will probably agree with me, and then the future. I think of something like a, well, let's see, an exotic Tiger Carpet, I mean, you see the exotic JAG and how cool that is, and I want an Atlantic-- I want an albino Tiger, but someone's being, you know, a jerk about it. I want the exotic Tigers, I want ghost Tigers, I want to get refined, really good-looking caramel Tigers, so you can have really good-looking super caramel Tigers. Yeah, there we go. Oh, I want it all, anything, oh God, yes, so, yeah, we're going to hit on that. Before we do, I figured I would hit on this, since I'll probably, I'll be posting a pictures later, but my super caramel zebra jag to caramel zebra clutch hatched, a lot of cool stuff that hatched out. Looks like I got a lot of super caramel zebra jags and super caramel zebras, some caramel jags and, you know, this really cool caramel normal-looking thing that has a really wacky pattern, but the super zebra stuff hatched out, one, two of the eggs went bad, cut them open, and sure enough, they were super, super zebra something, so, but that has been sort of the case that sort of happens with these guys, so I've heard, and I believe this thing has jag in it, and I think it's super, well, I don't know if it's caramel or super caramel, but it's definitely a super zebra jag. I believe, I want to say, like looking at the color, I want to say it's at least caramel, but I don't know. Crazy thing is, is that- I mean, you can just give it a bit till after it sheds, you're probably going to have a better idea after it has its first shed of what you're looking at. Yeah, it's true, but I think with the, especially with this season, I've hatched out a lot of caramel stuff. I kind of have an eye for what's, well, what I believe is super or one is not, and it kind of has a look to it once you kind of look, I can explain it, but sort of has this look to it. If you want to, I can go through my picture and promise that I have a new laptop, because you asked me, you're like, send me the pictures of your baby supers after they hatched. And I'm like, oh yeah, sure, holy crap, all those pictures are gone. So I'm like, here's after they had their first shed, and it's like, you know, it's not what you really wanted, but you know, it's, things do become a lot clearer after the first or second shed of what the hell you're looking at. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy thing is, is that, well, it had a kink tail, which I think that's kind of well known with the given stuff. And the other weird thing was, is that it kind of has this lump around its heart region. So I don't know if it's going to make it, you know, hopefully I've had babies that haven't had like really well defined, like almost like rib cages around the heart where you could actually see the heart beating and it never voted well. Yeah. We always ended up going, not, not going the distance, but you'd be surprised. I mean, right out of the egg, I've had babies like rip their umbilicus and start bleeding and you're thinking that the thing's going to just bleed out and die. And then they're the first ones to shed and eat. So it, it, it could surprise you. I've had ones, I've had jags who are so bad at corkscrew and they couldn't slither right, corkscrew the way to the front of the tub and eat a pinky mouse. It's like that. Damn it. Yeah. So it's, it is what it is. Yeah, we did. Yeah. I think, I think the, the issues that are associated with the jag wire morph and then you put more issues on top of it with the super zebra. I don't think that super zebra jag is, you know, you're kind of a jag. Yeah. I got you. You are. Is there any way that this is a super jag in disguise? No. All right. I had to ask. No, no, no, no, no, no. I thought I, I maybe, I mean it could have. Yeah. So I mean, you, you have this and then, you know, we'll bring Jason on in one minute, but he, he hatched out a perfect one this year. So I mean, he brought his to Havader Grace and in a deli cup and I don't know why he did that, but I'm glad he did. Cause I got the stare at it. It is perfect from like the tip, the nose and the tip of the tail. It is awesome looking. And I'm kind of hopeful, maybe potentially in a few years, you might be able to breed out the kinktails and things like that. See, this is a trait that you can probably breed out, you know, I don't know about that dude. Now you're saying, now you're saying, like, now you're saying, I think we can breed a little bit long, all right, this is different than a long, all right. Yeah. I, I'm hopeful, I'm not automatically saying it will, but I'm hopeful. Getting loud. I don't know. I mean, read that. The fact that these animals are even, you know, I mean, we're dealing with genetic mutations. I mean, we forget that the whole utens, you know, it's not what the snake is supposed to be. DNA don't work. Yeah, it's that I know we should just be happy that we have a dream tonight. God, I'm just trying to be real with you, man, you know, oh, look at this. I have a question. What would a tiger carpandro look like? It would look like a carpandro with stripes. I have now ended that conversation bill, I know it's, but I'm not even looking and I know it's bill. Yeah. So let's get us going and let's, let's talk some tiger carpets. Hey, Jason. How you doing? Welcome back to a pretty good, pretty good. This is like Jason's third trip, but why does he keep coming back for more punishment? We'll never know. He loves you. He loves you so much, you know, just so dreamy, man, I know, right? Anyway, all right, so let's talk tiger carpets. I guess, Jason, I know you've hit on this before, but why don't you talk about like how the morph originated and maybe the back history of how you came upon this awesome carpet python? Well, they originated way back when early 2000s, they were established by a man by the name of Neville James out in California. He got his original tiger from a man named Richard Quick, who I don't know where he was at the time when he sent Neville his, but he, he spent a lot of time bringing reptiles up in Alaska. So that's, that's where they originated. Richard sent one to Neville, Neville, Bred it to a couple of girls from the East Bay Bavarium. It was tagged as a coastal when it was brought in. Nobody had any reason to believe it wasn't a coastal. Right. There've been a lot of debate as to whether it is or it isn't, but it's been accepted that the original one was a coastal just based on the time that it was, that it came in. Neville produced a full of these animals and put a few up for sale over, over, near those couple of years in 2000, you know, three, 2004, I believe I can't remember, but he advertised the pair on a king snake way back when and I, and I just snapped them up immediately. And that's how I got started with them. I bred the original pair and that I bought from him and produced a litter of 100% striped animals. And that's, that's how I got into the tiger carpets. Now was the tiger carpets that you picked up? Were they perfectly striped or were they kind of like, you know, kind of like what you see that like towards the tail, it doesn't get as good striping or? They were fairly well striped. I wouldn't say they're, they're, they were perfect. They weren't, you know, that, that perfect parallel line that are striped that goes down the dorsal. They certainly were striped. They, they were characterized really by broad dorsal band and that just as, not quite as broad but just as distinct lateral stripe as well. Sometimes it presented itself as a, as a series of ovals that went along the side. One of the other characteristics in that it had and where other other stripes and other coastal, you know, pattern variants didn't have was a really defined head pattern. It looked like it was drawn on by a sharpie and it also, the original stock seemed to have a connecting neck band that connected right up to the pattern. And it was, it was, it was a pretty distinct looking animal. So. Hmm. Cool. Different, different than the tri stripes that were out there at the time. Right. Cause weren't they, weren't the tri stripes thinner like not as broad in the back? They weren't. Yeah. Exactly right. They weren't as broad. The head pattern was more typically a coastal head pattern where it had, had sometimes had a pattern, some of that pattern kind of dissolved within it, within itself. These guys were, were easily distinguished between those tri stripes and, and, and the tigers and devil was producing at the time. So yeah, I mean, what do you guys think about the idea of like when we talk about tiger carpets to me, it's everything that kind of, or, you know, kind of comes from that line. It's not necessary. I mean, you have animals, I think there's some pretty nicely striped, uh, coastal that are out there and, you know, probably could pass off as, you know, the same type of look as a tiger. But to me, a tiger is more about that lineage than it is about necessarily the stripes. Yeah. My thing is that it would have to be, it would have to be linked back to the original line. Like, you know, somewhere along the road, and that usually means, you know, have one adjacent animal, some were plugged in into the lineage. And then you're good. I mean, anything with a stripe, after that point, I would say is a tiger, but it's the people who were like, you know, I think the term tigers thrown around a little too loose, loosely, in certain instances when it comes to, you know, striped animals, because there is a difference between a striped coastal and a tiger, in my opinion. I've had both and they look drastically different. What's your thoughts, Jason? Oh, you're talking of the wrong person. Without, without sounding, you know, elitist about it, and I certainly don't mean to, because some of the other stripe lines out there are absolutely fantastic. You've got Michael Penner's line. It's wonderful. Yeah. You've got the Russian line of striped animals that Mike Curtin works with, and they're fantastic. I actually had some of those. And there are just a lot of striped animals out there that are really nice looking, but they didn't really have anything to do with that line of animals, you know, that was being bred, you know, by Neville James back in the day. And he's the one who coined the term tigers to refer to his line of animals. So I kind of stuck with that, I've always called him James line tigers, and you know, I really feel if you're talking about a tiger, you really should be derived from animals from that original line. We've done a lot of outcrossing to get certain patterns, colors and everything, but at the root, it's still that small group of animals that he was working with that really started the tiger moniker and the tiger line. I would agree, you know, I think that's where people get confused, because I have all three, I have, you know, M Pen stripes and the Russian stripes and, you know, and then tiger stuff. Okay. What about as far as did, I mean, was anybody else working with tigers at the time back then? I mean, was there anything or was it just sort of overlooked? I think it was overlooked. It was a time where carpets were kind of starting to lean in popularity. And there were so few of them out there. And the ones that were out there were snapped up pretty quickly. And then you really didn't hear much else about them. And once I snapped mine up, you know, I just hung on to them until they were off-sized so I could breed them. So I really didn't even promote them when I had them. So it really, they really were, I don't know if overlooked is the word, but they just hadn't, you know, really come out onto the market yet, as something just, you know, that you could go pick up whenever you wanted and go find one, you know, they were so few available at the time that they're just, you know, there wasn't any out there. Yeah, it was as far as morphs and other kinds of things with carpets, like had jag really even come onto the scene yet or no? I think when I originally fought the tigers, and again, my memory is not the best, you know, that fast that far, but I think jags may have just started in Europe. But I think by the time I got my adults, I mean, the ones I had fought and raised into adulthood, they had just come over, over here, and a few people had picked them up. I know, you know, Will Leary had picked Benjamin up at that time. And I think Anthony Capanero had picked up a jag as well, just a few of the people of note that I can remember that, you know, having them. So as the tigers were starting to be produced, the jags were starting to come over as well. I do kind of remember them both kind of coming up together where they were starting to, like, I don't remember a time where tigers were there and jags weren't. And it was kind of like, you know, then we started seeing, you know, your booth at Hamburg and I've pastored you, you know, all the time. So yeah, kind of what happened at once. Yeah, right. What about the color wise on those original pair? I mean, did they have more of, you know, the khaki type color or were they a little more jungle-y or what was the jungle-y color I guess? Well, the original one that came over in the pictures that Neville was marketing them with the original male tiger was very jungly looking in the pictures. And which kind of caused a lot of people say, well, you know, this must be some sort of a jungle cross or came from the integrate area. But once I started talking to Neville and he started sending me some pictures of that original male, not so yellow, not so jungly looking. I think it was a very good picture and it did what it was supposed to do, which was to get people to say, wow, that's pretty hot looking animal, I want some of those. The original male, and I'll try to find pictures here and post them on the site. But he was very much like the tigers that I produced on my first go round. He had that sort of Manila khaki color, light background with the real defined stripes. The black was black, but it did have some sort of chestnut color coming through as well. But overall, the overall appearance was that, yeah, that sort of Manila color. Okay. Now, we're talking about the picture. You said the picture that kind of drummed up everybody. Was that the picture that was in the Bavarium magazine? That is exactly the one. Okay. I have that. I actually have that Bavarium, so I got to point it. But I have the picture somewhere too. Yeah. Yeah. It does look very yellow and black kind of almost like the tigers that are being kicked around today. But yeah, it's definitely did its job. And I remember they posted it up originally as a codom morph. They did. Okay. So, is that one that really kind of long a bet? Or are we, are we weighting? Am I jumping ahead too far, Eric? No, no, no, I was going to say probably the reason that they did that is because when you bred them, you got all tigers, right? I mean, that would be... I did. Well, I was working with two visual animals and all the offspring were visuals as well. Okay. So, at that time, and really we were basing everything on the fact that this is what Neville was telling us, which was the result he was getting, is that when he bred his original tiger to two separate female coastals, he was getting about a 50/50 ratio. Okay. So, that being said, that became the general school of thought. I hadn't at that point bred the tigers into anything else other than each other. So I didn't really have any data to either support or not be able to say it didn't happen that way. So, that was the assumption for a good long time that they were indeed a codominant morph. Okay. Right. But we've since learned that it's more of a polygenic type of morph. Right? And I think that's a fair way to categorize it. Okay. And it wasn't a breeding with Anthony Caponetto that kind of threw off all the whole codom talk or I assume you did some breeding yourself that kind of threw it right in the work. If I remember correctly, Anthony was still a very strong supporter that it was codominant morph. And he was claiming that he was getting striped animals on initial F1 breedings when he bred them to normal costals. I think it started to come into question when other people who had bought some, you know, from some of the first ones were breeding theirs and were getting, you know, varied results. You know, they were getting some striped fish animals. I think at one, Ted, at what time Ted Thompson was calling his lesser tigers. Yeah, I bought into that crap. I've got one sitting behind me. It's a coastal, it's a goddamn coastal. So it's like, yeah, but it was just wondering, I'm like, lesser tiger, Oh, I got to get this thing, whatever the hell it is. So, yeah, I think. Those people really started breeding them and breeding them into other stuff. We were figuring out that, yeah, you could get some stripe ish animals from these original animals. But you know, you got better results by breeding animals selectively that had had striping already present. So. Okay. Yeah. Right. Now, what would you call those, like, maybe not as striped or like a zigzag type of or the zipper type of stripe on the back? Are they still considered tigers? You know, at what point do you define a tiger? I, you know, I went back and forth on this for a long time because people would ask me that exact question and I didn't have a good answer other than to tell them, you know, here the basic characteristics of what the tiger was when I bought them and, you know, from my original animals and then the animals that I produced basically were slightly better mimics of the adults. And categorizing by, you know, it's the, it's the wide dorsal stripe. It's, it's the, um, the side stripe had the lateral stripe pattern, you know, whether it being a full stripe or ovals, it's that really defined head pattern that, that, that was very open and very distinct. If you've got animals that, that are displaying some of these traits or display displaying one of these traits, you know, it was, it was hard to tell people, yet, no, you can't call them a tiger. I think I finally settled on, you know, tiger line animals or, you know, animals produced from a tiger pairing, you know, you didn't want to, you didn't want to not call them tigers, but you didn't want to call them tigers either because you didn't want to muddy up what was already sort of a, sort of a, undetermined morph at that point. Right. So it was difficult. It really was at the time it was tough because you got people of note calling you and say, well, what are you calling them? What are you doing? How are you doing this? I don't know, I'm just going to suggest, as you are, I mean, you know, we're all, you know, on the same, on the same playing field here as to what's going on, you know, I've got results, we're getting, we're starting adding some other results. We've got to kind of put it together and figure, and figure it out. Nick mutton was very helpful from a genetic standpoint and, and calling it a polygenetic trait because, you know, it, that seemed to, to help people kind of get their, wrap their mind around the fact that yes, they're going to get striped animals, but they might get animals that might not be that striped, but they're still, they're still from that target, that original tiger gene pool. And I think that's where that's really what you had to kind of go with. And then you, you know, that people just started calling them tigers, whether they had some striping, you know, lots of striping, and then you sort of graded them, I think, you had, you had tigers with, with lesser striping, you had tigers with more striping, and you know, if you wanted better tigers, you, you pay a little bit more to get the better looking animal. If you wanted to get some of the, the lower striped animals and breed them together, your results, you know, as, as you breed them, you would get to where you wanted to get to. But you know, it did come down, I think, to like just a grading system as to the lesser strike ones, better strip ones. Yeah, I would agree. So, you know, if you want better stripes, you got to pay more money. So that's how it works. Fair enough. I mean, unfortunately that, I mean, that's, that's exactly, you know, that's, you know, where that's what it came down to at the time, you know, you wanted the better way. It's just with everything else. If you want a better jungle, you go out, you go out and find the person breeding great looking jungles and you, and you bought and you pay a little bit more to get those. So, so you, you know, when the time came for you to breed, you're, you, you were working with pretty good stock. Yeah. So it is possible to have one of these, you know, not tiger lying, coastal, so to speak. And if you breed that to say a really striped animal, you're going to get some nicely striped animal. You could get some nicely striped animals, even though the one of those doesn't have the greatest of striping. So I guess you're sort of, if, if you're paying for more striping, you're basically sort of paying to make better animals, so to speak. Your results are going to be more, more consistent, right? Exactly. And that people were really trying to get to is how can I do this to get my results to be consistent? Because with, with any more or with any pattern or with any color that you're working it, you want to be able to reproduce it consistently. So you can tell whoever's getting them from you, hey, if you do X, Y, and Z, you're going to get this animal. And you can, you can tell them with and be confident in the sense that, that you're giving them the right information to be able to do what they want to do. Right. So the ones without the stripes still are no slouches. I mean, I have that, we just talking about that lesser tiger that I have. And she's produced several tiger clutches from breeding with tiger animals and almost everybody's got stripes. So, and Jason and I did a joint pairing when I used her with one of your, one of your boy tigers to produce some. They threw some good looking tigers. So just because they're not strapped, if they still got it in the lineage, they still pop up every once in a while. So. Yeah. What, what do you think it is about the tiger carpet that people seem to have not have mixed it like they did with the jag? I don't know. I think honestly, people stopped using them as, well, I don't pay by stopping, but using them as an ingredient became less popular because of the inconsistency of, of, you know, of the offspring. Right. You lose the stripe. Right. And I think a lot of that had to do with people trying to get, get to stuff quickly and didn't, really didn't feel like putting the time in to use selectively bred animals to further the results. So I think that, that was a contributing factor to that. It certainly was a great ingredient when we first spread into the jag when I did my original pairing with Will Leary. We got the jags that were produced from that, which, which were aptly named tiger jags. They were different than anything that had been produced at the time from a jag standpoint. Absolutely. I mean, I don't know if you guys would agree, but maybe I'm just biased, but it's hard to be the tiger jag, man, and especially when you really get some, some really, and you don't see them that much anymore. I mean, you better. I just produced a whole bunch, but it's like I, in, in college, I honestly got had a clip of the reptiles magazine of Will Leary's that, that, that one tiger jag, that female that was like perfectly posed on this stupid tree branch, whatever. So I'm like, oh, that was my freaking dream snake forever and a day. And then like, you know, and tiger jags will always be something like so cool to me, especially when you start producing your own tiger jags, and it, it just, it's awesome. So yeah, I loved that animal. That was a good looking animal. So, but I think tiger jag kind of propelled jags further because it was something to shoot for even more. You know, everybody got their jags, but now everybody wanted to make tiger jags like, you know, really better looking tiger jags. And it was the super tiger jags and the super duper tiger jags. So it's like, you know, it kind of propelled it forward, you know, there was more stuff to breathe. So yeah, Jason, maybe you can tell us, maybe you can tell us, how did that pairing come about? Like, what led you to do that joint pairing with, with Will Leary and maybe you can explain to everybody when people say super tiger jag, what that means. Well, it was just as simple as picking up a telephone and, and calling Will, Will and I had always chatted back and forth about everything from bollens to tigers to jags, everything. So it was just as simple as picking up the phone and calling and saying, listen, Will, I don't know. Because at the time jags were selling for crazy money, and the tiger, the tigers hadn't really gained their popularity yet. And so I said, listen, you know, would you be open to taking my original female and bringing her to your jag? And let's see what happens. And he said, well, listen, I'll give it some thought. I'll talk to his wife, Mary, and we'll see, you know, if, if something moves us to do that. And, uh, and then he came back about an hour, Liz, I hate, he came back about an hour later. No, no, you're good. Mary and I prayed on it and we decided this, this really wasn't, you know, what, this wasn't the direction they wanted to go. Okay. That's absolutely fine. Yeah. And I said, you know, well, good luck in, you know, we'll certainly be talking about some other stuff. You know, just if you change your mind, let me know, you know, she'll be good. So, uh, I guess about a few days went by and he called me back. He said, listen, you know, we talked about it again and, and, and we think this might be worth doing. I said, okay. Well, I'll send her to you, you know, off, off the Delta dash. Oh, Delta. Oh, the days of Delta. All right. God. Anyway. We're over there and, uh, as with, you know, many, you know, breeding loans and when you're shipping animals around and trying to breed them, say, in season, the results as far as fertility weren't that great, right? We only got a three eggs, I believe, uh, hatched. And one of them being that, that tiger jag, that, that, that you were talking about, that it meant everybody's seen that picture with her sitting there off on that perch with she was super, super light and super clean and real reduced pattern. Yeah. Um, and then we got two siblings from that as well. So, um, then, and the next year, you know, she, he wound up shipping her back and, and I wound up actually in the meantime, I had been growing up a female. I think we tried two years with her and then the, and the next year wasn't all that great either. We got a couple, but it wasn't, you know, she, at that point, I think her age and, and the breeding was catching up to her. So, uh, he sent her back and I sent him a, a fresh female that I had produced and I had raised up. Okay. And when we bred her is when we started really getting some, you know, when we had a big sampling of babies to look at, then we, we, then the, the term super started getting thrown around. Um, oh yeah, yeah, okay. So, um, that's where, that's how that all came about. Um, as far as the super goes, I think, you know, everybody wanted to use that moniker for just about everything. They were super tired. Everybody thought at one point, they'd be, there'd be super tigers. If you continue breeding tigers to each other, you know, but you can really tell what was super. Yeah. So, I think, you know, it, it, it goes back to that grading system. I think, you know, you had really nice looking tigers and grade A tigers and you had really nice looking, you know, tiger jags, uh, and you, and you would, you would grade them on a scale. You know, again, the nicer ones went for a little bit more and, and, and also on down the line. So, I think that, that's, that's where all that all came about it, you know, and it was, it was a great partnership with Will and I, and then we produced some really nice animals during that time period that really kind of established, uh, both, both morphs at the time as, as viable, as viable, you know, color pattern morphs. Yeah. And I remember when all these readings were happening in the, uh, that one super tiger jag that Will had being bred back to a tiger jag, people were losing their minds expecting something insane and, uh, I think that all that came out was more really reduced pattern tiger jags. Things like they hit the, the ceiling there is how much you could go down the super tiger jag road. Yeah, I mean, there was, I mean, I think at one point, I did breed tiger jag, the tiger jag and got some really reduced animals. Um, but they also, they off also, um, you know, suffer from the, the jag neuro stuff. Um, yeah. So I never repeated that pairing. I actually still have a couple of those animals and they're not, they're not too bad, but you know, I've never really put them into any sort of, in, in, in any of my breeding projects. Right. Right. Okay. So at some point you kind of started moving around with the tigers and you started kind of going down the road of adding different colors. Like you started the red project, you can kind of walk us through making the reds. That was a fun project. So, um, I, again, will was involved in that one. I purchased a red, just regular tri-stripe animal from will, um, and, and bred it to one, to, to my, um, my original line tiger produced, um, some animals that, you know, when they were actually, they certainly were, were reddish in color, um, more, more towards that rusty maroon color, um, but still, still red. And, you know, it was, it was the first time I had actually crossed them into anything. So, um, I was excited about that. And they produced a real, a bunch of real nice animals, um, over the course, like two or three seasons, um, some of them actually went out to Paul Harris. He, he's using them now to produce some of the things that he, that he produces with them. Um, and I kept some here and I wound up breeding my pair back together, uh, that I raised up and, and again, produced some really nice striped animals, reddish babies, sort of more of, um, you know, I hate to use the word, but they were more of a caramelly color, um, as they got older, um, not related to anything caramel that's out there now, but they, that's just to describe kind of what, what, what the correlation on them was, um, so, and you know, again, I was pleased with, with what, with what I produced, but it didn't really, I didn't get the actual results that I was truly looking for, um, as far as like really red animals, um, and I, I still really haven't, because I haven't, you know, I haven't crossed them into the, the real red coastal that I'm working with now, which were from, oh, again, olearies, madah, blueberry animal, red coastal, um, that had a really unique, um, um, lack of better words, silver reappearance as an adult, very silver, very light and very silver. Um, I, I, and I just, I haven't crossed the tigers into that, well, I have, but I haven't been able to, to, to use what I've produced back to each other, back to the original animals that, that, that from madah, blueberry, um, I know Eric has one of those, um, that was actually crossed into that, into that line, and last time I saw it, it looked pretty good. Oh, I love that snake, um, he has, he has one of Luke Snell's red jags, and I'm waiting for him to breed the red Snell jag to your, uh, red tiger. So I'm waiting for that pair and he keeps not doing it. And it's like, God damn it, well, you just do it. You remember, Jason, it was that, uh, jag, I picked up for him at, uh, yeah, yeah, you want to think of a white blade, the one we almost all like just took it from him, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's honestly lucky he, that, that Owen made it home with that because they're about four or five times, yeah, I'm going to go to white planes and I'm almost mugged because I'm bringing one of Eric's animals home. I just want to reduce my thought. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I hate to run. Yeah. God damn it. Yeah. Yeah, that's, uh, I mean, that's just, I, well, I mean, that's just the whole another show is the red thing, but, I mean, if you look at those, if you look at the tiger and the jag and what it does with that red gene, I don't know. I don't know what you, well, I know what you think, Jason, but, uh, it's just a little tremendous results in the, I mean, you're looking at, that isn't even really been selectively bred yet. I think that's what you're saying. Like you haven't been able to cross those animals back, you know, yeah, I've had a couple of slow growers and just really haven't matured quickly enough, um, to, to put them into the rotation. Um, hopefully next season I'll be able to do that. Um, I actually got an animal back from somebody that was very Molly Ringwald-ish, not quite as nice as she was, but, you know, it has, it has the characteristics that I was looking for that I know, you know, will make some really nice striped animals if I can put the right male to her. It's an, it's an, it's an, it's in very near future planning stages. Yeah, I think something that's very cool. I mean, I think I bought into the red tigers too early because like the two years after that you started cranking out the really bright red ones and I'm like, crap, I already have like four. So, uh, I kind of, we're hoping you kind of start shooting out some other stuff. So. Yeah. That was original, that was original red tiger still have some value to it. Oh dear God, I love them. They use them for everything. Just put another, even put another madam blueberry red animal to that and I think you'll bring out that, you know, red coloration even more. Yeah. Um, I put a icon to it and I have this one hold back that's insanely red in color and she's awesome. So I love them. Jason, do you think that, like, would you think that, that you'll be able to refine that a little better when breeding back that, you know, that red that you're working with now, the madam blueberry red to that original red, as far as out crossing goes and such? Um, I honestly don't know that that is in my plan at this point because I have, my plan is really to get that. The animals that I produce from the, the madam blueberry red jeans, to get those back to each other. Gotcha. I don't know if, if, if you saw, you have seen like the reds that I produced this year that come out sort of almost albino looking, um, I posted a few up on, on, on a couple of the, the pages. That's my intent. That's, that's where I want to get to the produced tigers that are coming out with that, that glowing look, um, again, it's, that's a whole nother show, but there's something, there's something there as well. They're, they're something genetic going on there that's, that's beyond the typical red coastal that, that browns out as it gets older. Right. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what your experience is with, uh, with the reds that you produce from that same clutch as Molly, but she's holding her color very well. I'm really surprised, you know, like, yes, I guess because I guess I'm probably just used to the 07 red tigers where they sort of as the age, they, they turn that different color. Whereas with Molly, she's staying on that, you know, that red side. Yeah. Yeah. And that was, and that was, that was my hope when I started using that male red coastal that, that I produced from the Madame Blueberry stock because he's still red and he's, he's still notably red compared to other redlined animals that have either browned out or gone real silver color. He held that red color and that was my hope that his offspring would start doing the same thing. And a couple of them, so the hand picked ones have, um, when, when, when I got it, when I started breeding those, you, you got a very, um, varied clutch. Yeah. You had like sort of, you know, animals look like just regular coastal's, you know, half tiger, half, half knot tiger, half red, half knot red. But there, you know, there was, there was definitely different grades of red in those animals. And one, the ones at the higher end of that scale as they, as they matured into adults seem to be holding a good deal of the red color. And I think that that bodes well for the future when people start crossing these animals back to other animals from that same line. That is, I mean, I know you were the first couple of Madame Blueberry red guys, kind of started really, really, really good and kind of faded out a little bit. I mean, have you kind of seen that progress a little bit more where just a little bit longer, a little bit longer? I know you had that one boy, uh, but you have a bunch of other Madame Blueberry reds that have kind of gotten a little older, right, that you could potentially use for expanding on the project even more. I did finally was able to do that this season, you know, if you, if you want to, you know, just take the tiger talk out of it for a second, I was able to take my, that, that original male that I use and finally breed it back to one of his, his clutch mates that was that was one of those low to medium red color, almost like a coffee color animal. And I was able from that, I produced two of those really stunning red animals. So you know, I would have to, I would have to get Nick mutton on here to really explain the genetic aspect of it, but I was, I was very happy because I, that to me said, well, it's genetic. It's got to be on, you know, two jeans are lining up correctly to produce that, that particular color animal. So I've got a few of those over the next year or two that I'll, I will be breeding those guys. I've got two males that, that, that both came out sort of that albino looking color and has stayed fairly red over the, over the year. So they'll be meeting up with some of their clutch mates and some of them. They're all spring in the next year or two. Okay. Yeah. That, that, that sort of albino looking stuff is just insane. And then if you were to put that into a fully striped tiger, oh my goodness, this is. Are you starting to work any more projects? Like I know we've done the Reds into the tigers. Are you trying to work anything else into the tigers? Like in Zantik, albino, ghost, pick a color? I've never been a real big, you know, crossing the, the subspecies, the species line guy. I'm not, I'm not as adamant about it as others. Um, I'll just say this and keep it cryptic. There's albino, the tigers look really good. That was cryptically shit. Well, just to give you an idea of how, I would not be opposed to having one of those sitting around. There you go. Just to give you an idea of like how the tiger can work, like the jeans. I bred a, I wouldn't say she, I bred a somewhat, what did you say Owen? I nothing. Okay. You're talking about those things that you won't let me buy again, pissing me off. Yeah. Go ahead. Uh, uh, abandoned albino, abandoned albino, he, he was a, um, uh, Paul Harris, um, one of his breeders, um, to a citrus tiger, um, which she doesn't have the best striping. Uh, but her color is still the, is that is still like she's just an amazing colored snake. She's still yellow and black and crazy contrast. And, um, all spring that I got from that clutch was all striped, except for one. That's kind of like, like sort of that, what you guys were referring to as, you know, it's got a little bit of striping, but, you know, it's like tiger lying, esque, you know, had albino type of thing, but, uh, I was really surprised. And when you throw in that Darwin into the mix, you know, I don't know, it just took it up another level, you know, so my idea is is that to get really, really, like there's albino tigers that are out there, uh, over in, in Europe and they're beautiful. But I think for me, I want a really high contrast because I want to be able to see that stripe. And I think that those citrus tigers are going to be the trick. So we'll see. I think you can go about it from a couple of different angles, but that's certainly one that will get you there. Um, I might try a couple of different things. Ah, very cool. Yeah. Yeah, you know, okay, now you're being cryptic. So you better go to sell the dog one, I'll take that one. So. All right. We need blood red albinos. Yeah, we do. I mean, come on. We need everything. Yeah. I'm not going to be. I'm not going to be happy. I was like, I got everything. So. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, if you had, well, again, just think of like, I would, I'm also cute. I know this is off the tiger subject, but, you know, I've been doing some research on boas as of late, and I see that, um, that when they talk about like, bloody, bloody albinos and, and all these crazy albino things, and it's like, really like insanely colored. I wonder what that red gene there, I say, it's a gene or jeans, it's going to do when you put that with albino because I'm just thinking of like what V look like. And then you put that, you know, that red snell jag and make it albino. That's just going to be crazy nuts, but, well, you're probably further along on that, on, on that project than I am because I haven't really crossed albinos into anything yet. So, I mean, you're more the Frankenstein scientist than the rest of us on the end of this phone call. So, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, but. I don't know, I, I would just love to see a really nicely striped the exam tick tiger. I think it would be cool. And then, of course, go hand to hand with that with like a ghost tiger. So. I would love to see both of those. I think the exam would, I think the tiger would help clean up the exam tick a little bit as well. I would agree. Um, it would, it's, it's white background and, and, and a lot of those from that original line have really clean light backgrounds. I think that would help really give a nice presentation to the exam tick tigers. I mean, even just going from an exam to an exam tick jag, you saw the color kind of step up a notch and it kind of became more silvery blue in a lot of these exam jags. I'd really like to see that silvery blue organized and the stripes. And then, of course, you can go hand in hand with that with what would an exam tick tiger for it to an exam tick jag. I mean, what, what would the exam tick tiger jags look like? I would, I would go that route. I will, I like going long way around the barn, kind of to get the magic tiger and then get the exam tick jag to breed it instead of just tossing a tiger jag in an exam tick. So I almost think that would make for better babies. So. I have, uh, it's, it's, I can't believe you actually. You have everything. I can't believe you, I can't believe you sold this Jason, but I have a female tiger that I thought she would have went last year, but she'll definitely go next year. She's perfectly striped from your original line that you did back. I think you did that pair. I think she might be Oh, nine or 2010, Oh, nine, I think it is. And she's going to be with a, um, examic, uh, next year, but the taking all my money. Oh my God. The thing that I noticed, and maybe you could talk about this is that she has, um, like, maybe this is the different colors, but the khaki type of color. Is that typical of the original line, um, that you would say, khaki, I, I used to call it manila, um, but yeah, that, that was very typical of them. It was, and it was interesting that they were that light and that color, cause as babies, they came out so dark, you could barely discern a stripe, uh, when they, when the originals were hatching out, um, they were so dark and then, but they lightened up very quickly. So yeah, that's, uh, yeah. And you know what, I, again, another thing that I wonder why tigers have seemed to sort of, I guess with all the, the morphs and the crosses. And I think my personal opinion is I think that, uh, everybody sort of has this, uh, they want immediate results type of action and they're not really taking the time to, uh, you know, selectively breed and, and you know, that may, you have to take some, you have to have some patience when you're working with, you know, tigers because, uh, you know, when you're breeding stuff into it and you might not get perfectly striped and then you got to refine that a little bit and, you know, it takes some, some generations of breeding. But I think the, I don't know, the results are, are, are well worth that. Um, but that may be why you don't see like, you know, because if you breed a caramel to a zebra jag, you're going to get caramel zebra jags, but if you breed a tiger to a zebra jag, I don't know, the results are not as what I thought they would be. Yeah. You know, I'm not giving up on it, but I know you did that same pairing, Jason. What are your thoughts on the zebra and the tiger and how that kind of works together? They're kind of conflicting almost. I, I did that pairing this year. Um, I guess my opinion would be that those two genes aren't really meant to go together. Mm hmm. Um, now that's not to say that when you breed maybe some of the offspring back together, you might get some different results, but the initial pairing, um, doesn't seem to indicate that, that those two genes want to, want to hook up with each other. Um, yeah, I got, you know, a couple mildly striped animals. I've got some decent looking zebras, but none of the zebras, which is where I, where I thought maybe the pattern would try to present itself because my, because I do get striped zebras from time to time for my original male. Mm hmm. So I thought maybe putting the stripe in, in, in to him or with him would, would at least get me some moderately or mildly striped zebra animals. And that was not the case at all. None of the animals came out striped, not even, they didn't even have that sort of dark dorsal animal that I was getting on some of my just normal zebra pairings with, with normal jungles. So, um, it, it, initially it doesn't seem that the two genes match up now, you know, not to say that you take, you know, take one of those zebra's that came from that striped line and, and breed it back to a striped animal that you might not get something else. But, um, off the bat and that. So when you were, when you were doing that pairing, what did you envision what a zebra tiger would look like? What did you, what do you think the results would be? I thought maybe you would, you would, you would open up the zebra pattern a bit. Now I wasn't, I wasn't expecting, you know, like a nice dorsal, a light dorsal stripe with, like, sort of, you know, the zebra side pattern, almost like a marble type presentation. I mean, it, that, that's what I would want to see, but I didn't think I was going to get it off the bat. But I thought at least I'd open up the pattern, a tad, but the zebra's I produced were pretty tightly patterned. Yeah, mine looked different. I have zebra's that were from, from tigers and they look completely different, but I don't know if that's the coastal in it or if that's the tiger in it, you know. And I guess, I don't know if you guys have ever seen a pixel blood python, but that's what I envisioned a zebra tiger to look like. Um, look at, I was kind of looking to look like ball pythons. I mean, I always thought they would look like pin strips were almost like, I was, let's always hoping for, is that the zebra pattern would be kind of organized like a tiger, um, and you just kind of get these thin, really tiny stripes going down them. But I don't know what a hell I was thinking, um, but I have seen, like, I have the Darwin zebra from you, Eric, and that pattern is a lot less busy than the zebra that I have from Jason. It's like, uh, it's almost like the Darwin kind of slowed down the pattern a little bit. So I don't know. Maybe it can be organized. Maybe the right, the, uh, kind of get the right keys there. I, I did notice that the head patterns on the zebras that, that they were produced from the tiger were much less busy. Okay. And your normal zebra head pattern. Hmm. So I would do that. Yeah. I don't know what to make of that, but it was just an observation more than anything else. I'm not trying to read it. Right. One of the, uh, one of the things that I noticed, uh, this is jumping back to those O seven red tigers. And I'm curious if you've seen these results with any other tiger pairings that you've done. There seems to be like this peppering that sort of happens on the, on the bald back. Um, do you think that, is that something that you see in, in all the tiger lines or is it just in that tiger? I don't think I noticed it as much until I did breathe the red tiger because I remember that, that red tri-stripe male had some peppering to him's, um, but when I go back and look at some of the older photos, I do see some speckling, um, in the original tigers, but it seemed it was, it was like, you know, half the clutch would develop at half of it would stay pretty clean. So I think that's, you know, that's just inherent in, in, in that line of animals. Okay. Yeah. I mean, so I, I have one that I really liked the way I, maybe just cause it looks different, you know, I like that peppery look and then others where I just appreciate that, you know, the real clean bald back type of thing, but, uh, I like them both. So, okay. What about, um, I know this is going back a little bit, but, um, when, when Ted Thompson did those, uh, what he called high contrast tigers, I guess, um, yeah, he bred them to high con queenslands. Um, was that a joint pairing that he did with you or is that just animals that he bought from you and, and that's it was an animal that he acquired from me. And that was, that was all him. Yeah. He did that with Dave Prada. Gotcha. Yeah. I thought all the high con tigers came through the Dave Prada stuff. Um, and I know that he was kind of producing a bunch of, uh, really kind of yellowy tigers there for a while. So, I'm not sure, uh, I think he's kind of backed off for a little, but I haven't seen tigers at his table in a while. Yeah. He, I don't think he's working with, with them as much anymore. Um, yeah, that's, I guess, you know, it didn't, it, for him, it wasn't a project that he thought he wanted to sustain, I guess. Yeah. So, I mean, why, why do you, what's your thoughts on why you think maybe the, what do you think? Why maybe the tiger carpet, python really isn't, uh, in the forefront of, uh, people's projects. I mean, maybe we're biased because all three of us are working, you know. Several tigers. Yeah. They're really, really strong. I always say that nothing beats a really nicely striped tiger, like ever on a table, like, come on. So, yeah. I mean, I, so, unfortunately, I think it's a, it's a flavor of the month syndrome, um, coupled with, you know, the inconsistent, inconsistency, which with, with the, the clutch results, um, like, like you mentioned earlier, people didn't really, it's a patience project. So you have to, you know, you're not going to get, unless you get two really nicely striped animals, you're not going to get the results you want from the first go round. Right. So, um, it's, it's definitely a project that takes a little bit of time to develop and, and you have to, you know, start breeding animals back that you produced yourself and you know, that, you know, how long it takes years to do that. And we're in an on demand, uh, world these days and if people, sometimes if people can't get what they want right away, they tend to abandon the project because they just don't have the patience to deal with it. Yeah. Plus, other morphs have have come to the forefront. There's so many other things out there now that, um, that people want to see and want to work with. And, you know, until somebody uses a tiger to produce something crazy, uh, you know, they, they're going to stick kind of stay maybe, not in the background, I wouldn't say, but they're not, they're not going to be, you know, the first thing people are looking at. Right. Which is, which in my opinion is a mistake, but, you know, yeah, again, I'm biased. So yeah, I can, I think everyone should have a good, really nice pair of tigers because sometimes they blow you away with the stripes that they produce. So, you know, I know, but like when I think of, like we were saying earlier at the, uh, at the onset of the show that, um, you know, I'm working with, you know, as I was talking about my super caramel zebra, caramel zebra clutch and like, you know, it's really shocking that, um, we don't get, um, that we don't get more disasters when it comes to these more so working with, but I don't know, sometimes when I'm looking at jags, I really like jags, you know, and, and I like what they produce and, but sometimes when I see that thing just corkscrewing and I'm, and then I open the cage and look at the tiger and it's like perfect. I don't know. Maybe I should be working with, with this and not that. Not that I don't like jags or I'm against jags or anything like that, because I have tons of them. It's just that, I don't know, there's just, they seem to be, uh, there's like, there's no issues with them that I, that I've seen, I mean, I don't know if you guys have seen anything. For me, I don't know, they, they seem to be great eaters, um, vicious little monsters. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's, there's, I, I've not seen anything and, uh, I always do like the idea that a tiger will totally surprise you with its color, um, just kind of out of the blue one day you open the tub and it's like, holy crap, the colors have appeared in the stripes and the back is yellow or red or orange or whatever tacky, whatever the hell teller it's going to be and it's just, and what's really cool is with these mixings. I mean, I bred a red tiger to a high con tiger and I got khaki yellow, orange and red all tigers all from the same clutch. So I'm like, all right, we'll just do this for the rest of our lives. So, um, you can kind of enjoy that kind of stuff. And I definitely think they are maybe not overlooked, just more of like a put on the back burner kind of a thing and you can have fun with these guys. So, yeah, they definitely have their, their rock solid, you know, a lot of animals, um, they don't present too many problems health wise and you know, they obviously don't present any sort of neurological issues that some, you know, the jags, you know, have, but you know, and again, as far as using them as an ingredient, it just takes patience to get what you want. Yeah, and I guess my other point, I guess what that would be is especially with the pricing and how things have, have come down a bit and whatnot, you would think that a project like that, that where you can only, it's not as consistent. It's, it's more like what you're seeing with condos, but the results are going to be, you know, are going to be fantastic. I would think that that animal would hold more value for longer, you know, because they're not as easy as to produce. Yeah. So, but it almost seems like some people, how some people hold tigers in a higher regard. And then the other ones just kind of, you know, just don't know, I'll come around for 200 bucks, whatever. It's just kind of what is so. Yeah, I think one more thing, I was thinking when, oh, when you were talking about your clutch from this year, I remember, I think, Jason, wasn't it that you bred your '07 red tigers together and produced that animal that was in the calendar the one year? Yes. Yes. Well, the erect result of that, of that period. So you were absolutely right, cause that kind of slipped my mind until Owen said that, that those were some amazing animals and those animals are like, I don't know, and I think of some of those, yeah, I made that mistake. And I made a mistake of not producing, I haven't, I don't think I've done that pairing since, to be honest with you, I was, I was more concerned with, with getting some more color into that line, but I sort of, I, I didn't really stick with the, those two animals producing the, the caliber of animals that they did, that whole clutch was, was, was stellar. Yeah. Obviously you had the couple standouts, but on the whole, I mean, it really was a good-looking clutch. So, yeah, you know, we all make mistakes. We all sell that one, we wish we had back. Unfortunately, I'll seem to go to Eric, which pisses me off. Well, you know, you sell these things, you know, because obviously you can't keep them all. And you know, we all have, we all have different, you know, projects that we're working on and that, that sort of sometimes, you know, divert our attention to other projects that, that we have. But, you know, it's nice to know when you go to these local shows that, and people are buying stuff from you that, you know, you know where the animal is, you know, and you know the potential the animal has. And eventually, you know, if you don't do it, somebody will, eventually you're going to get to see, you know, that, that project come to fruition somewhere along the line. Definitely. If it's $1.00 and cents out of it, you know, you just want to see, you want to see that one animal. You want to see, you know, the animal that you had, you know, envisioned in your mind when you, when you first started parents stuff up. What's really cool is that my, my first JAG, or boy, JAG boy that I ever got was from you. And it's Sire was actually that red tri-stripe male. And he's produced Tiger Jags from me and that one Tiger Jags, I bred into red tigers that I got from you. And I have this one little baby that hatched this year that looks like that red tri-stripe boy from way back when. So he was a super neat animal. Oh my holy crap, there you are. It's like, you know, I've seen you for three generations, but all right. So I don't know, I think I'm going to hold on to that one. Yeah, I, I definitely, that was an animal that I, that I truly enjoyed having. He, I lost him a little too early. He had a, an enlarged heart. So he didn't, he didn't produce more than, you know, two or three clutches. I think when it was all said and done, but, um, I wish I had been able to do more with him. Yeah. Because he, I think I, I'll, I'll post a picture of him here in a second. And I think he, uh, he had some potential in and of himself. Mm hmm. Oh yeah, that, that's, that's honest to God, what drew me to the whole red tiger projects, as well as got me on the hook for the jag at the same time, because of that boy. And I truly like the way he looked. He was just so cool looking. So, I'm kind of glad that there's something kicking around with that. Oh, I found him. I'm going to post. Oh, there he is. But, um, yeah, he was a very unique animal, um, at that time, there was nothing else out there like him. The reds hadn't really started, um, popping up yet, and he was one of the first one and obviously, you know, not the reds that we're seeing now, not the caramel stuff, but certainly something unique at the time. That's awesome. So, you know, I'm, I'm looking at that, uh, I'm looking at that original male tiger that you purchased and it does have like, uh, it seems to have like a lot of that, that, that's peppering on the back. He got that when he got, when he got into his, his later years that came out. Yeah. Yeah. Have you seen kind of a connection between the peppering, like, uh, with adults with peppered on the back and producing babies that don't have any peppered on the back or vice versa, because it's kind of happened. It, yeah. It's, it's just inherent in that line of animals. Um, and it, like I said, some clutches, you'll get none, uh, others get 50/50, and you really can't tell them to the animals have gotten a little older. It's kind of like jungles. You, you really don't see, you don't see the smudging until they get to a certain age. Right. Um, I'm looking at, uh, I'm looking at, we're looking, I'm looking on, I'm looking on Moraleo Python radio, uh, route page, but, um, it was funny I go and look at Facebook and there's all these things on the page and I'm like, wow, I'm freaking stripes everywhere. Jason, when you're breeding these, I seem to see like the tail, is that the last part to, uh, to hold the strike, like if you're breeding together, is that really the last part of the animal that usually is not striped? Yeah. You'll usually get that little break in the tail. Okay. I don't know if it's just a, you know, as a gene, you know, forms itself down the back of the animal, it just, it, it loses steam or what I, I, again, I'm not a genetic expert, but I did see that a lot. Yeah. I would imagine though, I would think with breeding, eventually you could get an animal that had solid striping, right? Yeah. I mean, you've seen them with it to the tail. Yeah. Because I'm looking at your F2 female tiger and that thing looks like it's pretty much perfectly striped. Yeah. I, she, honestly, she may have had a break at the tail. I honestly can't remember, um, but I would say 90, 98% of her were striped. Yeah. Wow. And she, she is really, she, that animal there is really the, the, you know, I know we got that first really nice tiger jag, you know, Will and I did the, did the pairing, but she was really the animal that established the tiger jags, um, she produced a, a really decent number of them over the, over the years. So, and she's also the one who produced the red tigers for the first time as well. Nine. Yeah. That's clean. Yeah. That's what I like though that it's, you get that nice clean back. I mean, Jesus, that's awesome. Yeah. And then if you look, if you look at that, I, I posted the red, try, start male. Yeah. If you look at him, you'll see where a lot of peppering comes from in the red tigers too. He's got a lot of peppering along the sides and so I'm waiting for my thing to, uh, there you go. Oh yeah. Absolutely. See, I love that guy. He just, it was really a unique animal from the head pattern to the color. Yes. Um, everything was just, at the time, not being a tiger, you know, you could have established a line in and of itself with just him. Yeah. Mm hmm. And what would, did you hit on the history of him? He came from Will Leary, right? He came from Will Leary and that's all I know about him. Will had very little, Will acquired him. Will did not produce him and he watched, you know, he never really explained to me where he came from. Some of the best stuff just shows up, so he find it a freaking bin at freaking Hamburg. It's awesome. Yeah. So those are fantastic. Geez. Everybody's got these good tigers popping up all over here. I mean, I think honestly the, the coastal genus itself is coming back into popularity. I love coastal, those are, those are always my bread and butter. You've got the tigers. You've got the caramels. You've got the azanthic. You've got, you know, my red line of stuff. Um, there's just so many morphs out there with the coastal that you have the breakdowns even in and of itself, you have the tiger, but then you got all the different flavors of tiger. Yeah. So it's, there's also, there's also the, oh, bino in Australia. It's in Australia. Stop getting my hopes up for a legitimate coastal, like albino stuff. All right. That's enough of the throw out all my albinos when the albino coastal show up here. Just like get the Darwin's out of here. I don't want them anymore. So that's just what you there's room for both coming from you who's had, I mean, I'm surprised you haven't strangled your albino Darwin with all the stuff that he put you through. So I did. He did redeem himself finally this year. So, um, hopefully now he's on the right path. Yeah. So. So I guess we have two more questions and then I just, we can hit on maybe what you got going on this year and then, um, anything else you want to hit on as far as tigers go. But if somebody wanted to get into say a tiger project, what would you, what would you tell them? What would you recommend to them? Um, I guess the first thing I recommend is know what you're getting, where you're getting it from and the validity of the line of animals that person is working with. I think if you really want to start a tiger project and, you know, when I say tiger, I mean, this line of animals that we've been talking about all night, um, you really need to research who you're getting them from and where they got theirs from and so on and so forth because otherwise, you know, again, not to put any other lines down because they're all unique in their own right, but if you want this specific line of animals, you got to know where they came from, right? They got to be traced back to the original, original tiger from Neville James. Right. This is why it's, uh, lineage is so important to, uh, yeah, I love it when we talk to Jason. I can get pictures of like parents that I need. So I just started like, you know, I'm just saving away. Take this one. I need that one. Awesome. I need to, I need to take a minute. I'm going to go over here. I just did the show without me. Anyway, as we were saying, but I mean, if you really wanted, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, and I think it's a great project. If anybody's looking to get into it, um, obviously there, you know, just about anybody who got who has tigers from me, um, and Owen, Eric, um, any of those guys, you feel comfortable with getting some of their offspring because you can, you can depend on where it came from. Yeah. Yeah. Direct from you. You know, it was the, the moments of standing in front of your table for hours on end, you know, and now that I, now that I run the table, I must have been really annoying. And I'm not, I'm not, I mean, this actually is probably bad business for me and probably for Owen, but honestly, if I were to get into tiger carpets, not that Owen and I or anybody else that's producing tigers, you know, I would get offspring from them. But if you're really going to work with the line, you should really have a tiger from Jason Bailin. I mean, you really should, you know, I mean, that's, I'll say it for you, Jason, because I mean, that's really the case because you want to be, if you really want to work with a specific line, you need, and even though our animals trace back, I don't know, I think there's just some kind of something just added because you've done the work for all these years into these animals and, you know, I just think that you should, you should have an animal in your collection that's directly from you and the animals that, you know, produced what we're working with, you know, you know, I appreciate that and, and over the last couple seasons, I've really, I've decided to kind of get back to those original appearing animals. And you know, it didn't work out so much this year because that one male Eric that you mentioned that was on the calendar, it just does not seem to want to, sure, and get the job done, so he's definitely back, we'll be back in the rotation this coming season to, to do just that. He, some of the, he, he's, he's a rational, but he, his characteristics also scream original line to, he's definitely probably going to be my new cornerstone animal once I get, you know, him ready and willing to breed. That's awesome. Yeah. He's a fabulous animal. No doubt. Okay. Anything else you want to hit on tiger wise? Because we have a couple of questions that are not tiger related. Non tiger related. Yeah. That's, that's totally fine. I think, I think we discussed the tiger at length. I think, I think everybody kind of knows where it came from, what it is and, and, you know, how you can produce it. So, right, hit me. Okay. Um, you guys are all good. Well, people want to hear about, uh, you know, your teamwork Python's, um, I don't know what's going on with them. What's your experience with them so far? I mean, I know you were on here before a little while ago talking about them. What, what's your updates on anything change? Yeah. All these change there, there were, you know, I did get copulations this season from them. Unfortunately, I did not get any eggs. So it'll be another season. Hopefully, uh, both the females that I have, um, will have gone, will have been with me now for, you know, better than a season. And hopefully that's, that's what was going on. They just hadn't settled in from being, you know, transported around and, and, and coming into a new environment. So, um, right. What I've, what I found about them is they're very, you know, and this is typical of them. They're very skittish animals. Um, they don't, they just don't like a lot of attention. Um, so I try to leave them alone and try to let them kind of do their thing on their own. But, you know, hopefully within the next year or so, you know, I'll, I'll be getting a decent clutch of those as well. Maybe two. Um, have you gotten like, I heard that they are, uh, not biteers, but they're shitters. Have you kind of had a issue with that kind of stuff? Um, the one, which was probably either wild caught or farm raised, um, animal definitely does not, it does not mind just drenching you with, with, with her. That is lovely. I don't want these animals anymore. Put me on the list. They will just, they're just, they just explosive and they just, they just let it go. Um, the younger animals that I have seem not to be as prone to doing that. Um, so hopefully that's something that can be, um, bred out of them as, as more captive babies produced and are handled from a very young age on, you know, into adulthood. And I, I think maybe it's more behavior genetic. So are you working with captive born and bred or these captive hatched or are they wild caught? Um, I think I'm working with all the above, to be honest with you. I think the, the one large female I have, I think is at least farm raised. Um, the couple of things I have are, are probably captive born, but not captive bred and born. So I think they read from, go ahead. I'm sorry. No, go ahead. I was going to say I would think that maybe, maybe the problem with breeding them is the fact that they are so skittish that they need to feel, you know, like weight loops, really comfortable and I thought about that too. So I use opaque tubs, you know, for, for the egg boxes, but I'm actually thinking maybe, um, putting sort of an opaque covering on their cage. So they get light, but they don't necessarily get, they can't really see exactly what's going on outside their environment. So, you know, it might be something that might be something that would help them. Do you have a main cages or, or caging? Yeah, I'm in both. I have them in tubs and in, um, both out cages. So the bigger one is different. Um, no, they're behavior is the same in either cage or tub. Um, as soon as you, as soon as you open the tub, they're, they're, they're right up there and they're not big. They're really not fighters, but they are, they are very, you know, they'll come right out at you and from the incident, the tub starts moving from one. So that's fantastic. Also horror. But again, the younger ones, you know, the ones that I got there that I probably got is yearlings are much better than the ones that I have that I got as adults. So speaking of that, we have another question about any idea on proper size, like, uh, when they reach sexual maturity as opposed to full grown adult? Um, well, it's interesting because I have a, what I would consider a very large female and I, and I have what, you know, we can, at the time, what I consider a decent size female but until I got this big female, the size difference, I think they're probably a mature females, probably a little bit bigger than we originally, well, then I originally thought a mature female would be for that, for that species. I was, I knew nothing about them when I started getting them. So, um, seeing, seeing the two females side by side, I'm thinking the one females nowhere near ready to go. Was this the large, you got the large female at Hamburg, right? Was that the big one? Yeah, picked up. All right. Yeah. I remember that. That was, that was a writing pillowcase of pissed off. So yeah, I was, what was that? Yeah. Do you have the, uh, I might have to send it to you if you don't have it, the Baker, Baker's, the Barker's paper on the team wars when they produced them? I think, I think you did send that to me already. I think I do have that. Okay. All right, cool. So hopefully you know, it's hard to find any kind of information out there. Uh, yeah. No, that, yeah, there really isn't a lot. Um, I know Carrie are working with it, with a good group of them as well. Wow. Oh, cool. Wilds, if you think the two wars popped up as popular, because I know you're not the only Morelia guy that got into them, they just all of a sudden seem to be the next thing to kind of swing about it. Well, I saw them and they're very Morelia-esque. Yeah. Um, in appearance, but, but so much different. Mm hmm. Their question caught my eye, their pattern. Mm hmm. You know, caught my eye, their, their head scalation was very Bolinesque. I liked that. Um, so yeah, it was, it was a number of aspects of, of the species that really kind of, you know, started my gears turning. I saw them about, you know, three or four years ago at Tinley, uh, when Luke Snell brought his to give to somebody else in Jeremy. And, uh, I said, wow, that's, that's an interesting species. I mean, and then I, I just sat and stood on it for a couple seasons until I was able to get them. You, uh, the, um, uh, there's a question about, uh, what, what is the size for an adult? Like your big female, what size do you think she is? Oh, she's going to have six feet. She's, she's six feet. I would say, yeah, I would say, I would compare to a, a, you know, what we would consider a mature female jungle size. Okay. Not that huge. I was expecting bigger. So all right. You know what they remind me of? And I guess it's because they're kind of lumped in now with what, uh, reticks, you know, they're very best. Yeah. The head scaleation is very different though. If you look at their, their scales on their head, it, it's very unique. Oh, they're one of those that I think, if I had the room, I'd probably get a pair, but it, I'm already running out of space as it is. And I just move here. So I can't justify doing this. So, uh, maybe one day when you guys are producing. Well, I'm waiting for you to, like Jason's going to breed them and then Eric will have them and then eventually they'll trickle down to me. Well, I'm saying Jason will produce them. Eric will buy them and then I'll wait until Eric produces them. It'll be fine. You know, the trickle down effect. Be fine. You have a lot of patience, my friend. I do for for shit that I'm like, I maybe want it. Yeah, I can wait, you know. Yeah. Um, I was going to stuff I want. I was going to say with the, uh, with the success of the Morelia, et cetera, Facebook page, do you find yourself wanting to get into, um, more and more, uh, different species, et cetera? I do. Um, I definitely, you know, as much as I love Morelia and the carpets and, uh, and I will always work with them. You know, I do find myself sort of now looking outside and looking at different projects. You know, I've got kids. So, they want different things. So, you know, we have, you know, we've got some lizards here now. We've got, you know, a, you know, a few different select colubrid projects going on. Uh, so it, it, it, it definitely, you know, there are other things you want to look at. You know, you don't have a, you know, we go to a show and have a table full of, which is great. And I love it. But you kind of limit yourself to who, to, to who your, um, who you're, you know, reaching. So if you've got other things on your table to bring people in, you know, then they get, then they start looking at the carpets as well. And so it's sort of a dual, a dual purpose type of deal. But I, I definitely found myself looking outside the carpet world for new projects. Yeah. Yeah. You've, you've kind of, you've lit that bug. That page is, especially has lit that bug. Um, it coincided when I met up with Matt and getting into the bloods and, uh, the shorttales and the, uh, you know, it just seemed like all these different species of, of things that, you know, I don't know that I sort of like, all my focus has been on carpets that I sort of overlooked these other things. And now I find myself more and more wanting to, uh, thin down sort of my carpets. Not, I will always have carpets and always work with, you know, all the different morphs and stuff. But I don't know, there's just so much out there. Uh, so much cool stuff. Like I think of, uh, Jamie and his, uh, his, uh, tree boas that he got this, uh, Sanzina. Oh my God. They're, they're awesome looking, but I can't say that too loud or Matt Minutola is going to make fun of me for liking another boa species. So they're okay. Yeah. No, they're awesome, man. Yeah, they are. Lord knows I don't want to, uh, to Jamie's horn, but Jamie is a perfect example of somebody who, who was working with a completely different species. Yeah. Well, he worked exclusively at the time with lizards had a few snakes here and there, but I mean, his main focus was, was, was Gecko's and lizards. And he's somebody who, who got into carpets just by, you know, being around us and seeing some of the stuff that we were producing. And that, that's a perfect example of, of, of doing more than just one thing. Yeah. And that's, that page was made for that somebody exactly like that. Yeah, just for Jamie. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think everybody else is joined. I don't know why. I think that guy. He's, he's an awesome guy. Very special. Yeah. He plays guitar. Yeah. Well, we, we've relayed on so it's funny. It's weird. I can tell the musicians in, in our group because when I put up, there was an album that I really dug the other day and I put it up. And you know, it had to be really good in order for me to put it on Facebook because my page, I don't post nothing on it. Um, like personal like that. And then all of a sudden him, somebody, who was the other, I forget who the other person was, but they're the only two that liked it. You know, and I'm like, Oh, yes, the true musicians of the group, everybody else screw off, you know, go to hell. Yeah. But yeah, it's cool. Um, so what do you have any eye, your eye on any, uh, projects in particular that you want to be getting into over the next year? You're gonna, you know, dust off the Bullens project. I know you just dusted off one of your call your group projects. So I did. Um, I, Bullens are, are in the not too distant future, probably. I'll get, I'll go back to those. Um, there, you know, and I, I'm even saying the words out loud. And I can't believe I'm saying because I was so against it for so many years, but now that my kids have lizards, there are a bunch of lizard species out there that really kind of float my boat. So, you know, the abrony of stuff, the Chinese geckos, all that, those things really intrigue me. I haven't, I haven't jumped on the either boat yet, but, uh, you know, I've, I've come very close. I know you have a colony of crested's right that that isn't that your daughter's the crested geckos. I do. Or you take care of them. So, I'll give my daughter her, her props. I don't do anything with them anymore. Um, in the beginning, I started, I helped her and, you know, but she doesn't even want me to do anything. Just leave them alone. Just, just I'll take care of it. Stop it. You're a snake guy. Don't touch these. Stop touching them. Yeah. All right. And even, even if I buy one that I like for me, and I told her, I got this one for me. She goes, just give it to me. I'll take care. I know what I want to do. I know who I'm putting it. I've got, I've already got plans. So, I know, I know on the show a lot of times you hear people and I know on Facebook, there's a lot of doom and gloom about the reptile hobby and all this stuff. But I, I personally see a more positive spin on things. Everybody complains about, you know, the more market crashing and all this stuff, whether it's carpets or ball pythons or whatever. But it seems to me like we're doing a more round out type of thing to where the people that are really into reptiles are starting to work with the species that they, they really like and not necessarily have to be on team carpet or team candro or team ball python or whatever. You know what I mean? You can have carpets and have, you know, crested geckos and you can have, you know, cave geckos and work with, you know, ball pythons. It just seems that more people, more and more are getting into things that they, that they really like. And at the end of the day, I think that's the best thing that could happen for the hobby, you know. I agree. I mean, you can't just stick with carpets and spit on everything else. I got to miss the wrong reason. Damn it. Damn it. All right. You have to worry about to play well with others. No, we cannot. Yes. No, but hey, it'll be, I'm excited. I get to get my table back at Hamburg and maybe, maybe I'll be near Jason again. I haven't been down at your neck of the show for years, so. You'll be at, you'll be at carpet row this year, right? Jason, you're going to Tinley, right? Oh, I wouldn't miss it for the world. I always end up having fun at Tinley with Jason. It's my favorite weekend on the counter. Yes, I would agree. I mean, myself, Howard, Julie, you guys, the Chris's from Head Hunter should be there. It's a great gathering of people. It's great to sell some animals, and we enjoy that too and get to see some animals, but it's really the one time of year where we all get together and get to cut loose. It's my favorite weekend of the year. I am looking forward to it. I mean, in October, or I'm sorry, it was March, I went, and I didn't really have anything, so I just hung out with you and Howard behind the table. But I do enjoy the after stuff. You have the show, but then you get to go and you pile around with all your friends, and it's all your like-minded, carpet guys, and then we end up back at that one bar and hilarity ensues. It's all good. I'm not sure what you're talking about. Neither do I. There's a rumor that Mr. Jamie Carnes himself will be very carpet row adjacent. Gas, so we can throw things at him. See, that's the one thing that I always liked about Jason. As a matter of where my table is at Hamburg, I can expect a wet paper towel balled up to be chucked at my head at some point during the show, and sometimes he's gotten it across like five aisles in between people. He's getting really good at his aim. I mean, I have to give him props for that. It is pretty impressive. See, I prefer when you don't go so we can burn your business cards. I have that picture. I still have that picture. I love that picture. I'm like in a new business cards here. Yeah, we set the tables paid for for us in the hotel book, so we're good to go. We're in. Fantastic. Yeah, it'll be a really good time. Anybody who's listening who can make it out to Chicago, Tinley Park for that N.A.R.B.C. show, it really is a fantastic time. You get to see all the people that you hear about. You get to see their animals, you get to talk to them, and then you get to hang out with them on a non-reptile level in the evening as well, so it really is fun. Yeah, definitely. That's a good time. I have a few animals in this one. Yeah, we did that. Then we share everybody's big and ready for October. Very good. Anything else you want to hit on, Jason, before we end the show? Yeah, no, the Tigers are great. Anybody who's ever been on the fence about getting into that project, you really should. There are some great people out there producing them. You're show hosts being two of them. Go get some from them out. They really are. It's a fun morph, for lack of a better word. I think you'd be really happy with the results you get when you start bringing those things together. It's pretty cool. Again, like Eric said, they're rock solid. You've got no quirks or anything going on with that line of animals. Yeah. And you can see all the lineage over on Moraleo Python radio page. That pretty much just had a look at it. Well, all the way back. I don't even have a lineage chart somewhere before lineage charts were cool. You're a hipster lineage. Oh, my God. I think I did a little PowerPoint presentation as a matter of fact that never went anywhere, but I still have it. All right. At least you got it. You know, for later purposes. Yeah. Yeah. Look at you. That must have been all those Kondra people you're hanging out with down in Maryland. Yeah, that's a Maryland dish, yeah. They must have rubbed off on you in the early days. Yeah. Well, you know where it came from. You know, it was just we were trying to figure it out. And when I started putting different pairings up on a screen and with results from those pairings, it kind of helped kind of see where they were going, what the genes were doing and what kind of clutch results you were getting. You have 50-50, not 50-50, you know, 100%, not 100. You know, it did help kind of sort of break it down. Right. All right. Cool. So you will be at Hamburg on August 1st, Jason. I will be at Hamburg on August 1st. I'm coming back from vacation a day early so I could be at Hamburg on August 1st. Oh, I hope we have a good show. Otherwise, otherwise it's going to be one of those I came back from vacation for this. And those are never good. So good times. Bring your fan. I'll bring the fan and I'll bring you some knob creek for you. You can go ahead and do that. Oh, you shouldn't bring it a show. That's so unprofessional, Owen. What's wrong with you? I do have one last question before we hop off. What's your most anticipated pairing for next year? Do you have it thought out yet? What you're thinking of doing? There are a couple of pairings that I really am looking forward to. I'm looking forward. Well, not to be completely queer about it, but that I am looking for a really, really good tiger pairing from next year using that one male. And I've got a couple different females that I think he would go well with. So that's, I really want to see, I've yet to see what he can produce. He's an eer-perfectly striped animal as well. And I've got two tigers to breed him back to that just throw some really neat stuff. There's some zebra stuff I'm looking forward to for next year as well. I've got some really good results when I bred the Delia zebra to the Brinkley zebra. I'm going to repeat that pairing. I've got some really, what I think are going to be some really nice super yellow, well-patterned animals from that. So, and the team wars too. So it's hard to choose just one pairing, but I've got a good four or five that I really want to lock down for next year. That's awesome. How about you guys? Yeah. What's your most anticipated pairing? I got no fricking idea. Eric has an idea out to about the year 2000. I know he's got the book. That's why he has the book. Probably... I'm going to take care of the hosting guy for a minute. Yeah, I've never been on this side of the fence. Yes you have. Open the book and do that. Come on! 2016, you already have it mapped out. Probably I have a... as far as crazy morphs go, too. I have a granite jag going to a zebra heck granite. I really dig this super zebra granite. I think they're just cool looking. So I'm hoping to get to there. And then I have caramel heck granite going to a caramel jag heck granite, which will be cool. I guess as far as just straight stuff. I hope to breed Darwin's next year. They're from the Terry Philip line. But I'm crossing them with the... I call it for lack of a better word. I call it a PC Darwin. It's almost... if you've ever heard of a poster child, IJ. It's very similar looking like no black on the animal at all. And I'm breeding those two, so they'll be out crossed Darwin's. I have an xanix zebra, but I don't think that you'll be ready. So I kind of put that one on the back burner. And... Good, no, go ahead. No, no, no. Go ahead. No. All right, well, my question for Eric is... So you're looking five years down the road. What is the one animal that you have in the back of your mind that you want to produce in the next five years? That one animal that just, you know, is your holy grail, what would that be? Oh, I know what mine is. Holy shit, that's hard to say. Yeah, no, come on. The holy grail, probably. That's been all the hard questions. If I was going on a morph, I would say a bino, citrus, it doesn't matter. Okay, it doesn't matter what morph, non-morph, whatever it is. What is the one animal that just lights up the back of your brain? That... I think you're gonna be your albino citrus tigers. Yeah, that's... Yeah, I think it's gonna be wild. Rough scale. Easy, rough scale. Next five years, rough scales. Dear Lord, I got the girl now. I'm good. So, but for my next year, I'm... Hopefully, if you can get up to size and time, caramel head examics is the one I'm producing that I think I'm excited about. But then I'm also giving another shot at McLots. So, that should be fun. For the next five years, rough scales, hands down. Oh, dear Lord. So... You know, one, I'm really looking at refining for me would be Inlands. I want Inlands. I don't have those yet. And if you said the next six years, I would probably say diamond pythons. Yeah. They're slowly becoming one of my favorites. Yeah. Very, very cool. How about you, Jason? Yeah, it's the one you want to produce in the next six years, or five. Well, right now, the one that stands in the back of my head, and I would love to, you know, if you get that albino coastal over here, do it with that. I would really love to see a blood red tiger, albino blood red tiger. I think that would be absolutely just for me, you know, the pinnacle of selective breeding and presentation and, you know, just a really, you know, you see some of the retics that they produce these days that are so, so reddish orange and, you know, into adulthood. That's for a carpet. That would just be absolutely outstanding for me. That would be cool. Yeah. Man. Lots of breeding projects. Well, I mean, that's good though. I mean, because look, you've got, you know, you've got carpets, and we've got, we've done a lot of stuff with the carpets, you know, from starting with jungles and tostles, where we are now, you know, with all the different patterns and colors that we've been able to produce, there's still so much more out there. Yeah. So anybody who's looking to get into this sector of the hobby that, you know, we're still really just on the cusp of producing some really crazy, crazy stuff. And new crazy, crazy stuff keeps popping up, like the stuff Jay McClure's coming out with. I know Paul's probably got a few he's not telling us about. So, you know, the thing that the carpet morph cap is done would be stupid. So I got about it. I forgot about poison ivy. What the hell? Oh, no. Damn. Hey, yeah, that's right. Well, I wouldn't want a sustainable line of pitch black animals. Who wouldn't? I mean, I mean, everybody does. Everyone lost their minds over the panthers. And, you know, I want those. I said sustainable. I know. But it got me thinking about it. So just to just to show you just how different projects can be, like to me, when it comes to jungle carpet, everybody seems to focus on the the yellow. But for me, I'm focusing on the black. So to me, a pinstripe yellow black jungle carpet is like a pinnacle look for me. I have this male that I picked up from you, I think, in 2010, Jason, that's like really reduced pattern, wonky looking, crazy looking thing, but it's as like black that's just like you can't can't be beat. And I have some girls to like really reduce down the yellow. Well, I'm hoping that's the end game and really have like that black standout to me. That'll be pretty wild. So that was the one thing I really, when I had Brinkley here, her black was really quite different from a lot of the jungles you'll see. I mean, that black was so deep and velvety. And yeah, I agree with you. If you could get some animals with more area of coverage where the black is concerned, I think you're on to something there. I mean, I know Chris and Chris over at Headhunter are working on stuff like that as well. Yeah, he's going to be on the show next week. But I've seen some of the jungles that he produced this season to people that picked them up. And I got to tell you, like, if you would have just looked at them, I would have swore that they were jags. That's how reduced in pattern they are, like some animals that are just unbelievable, you know? Yeah, they've really gotten to the point where they are producing year after year clutch after clutch of really outstanding jungles, you know, yeah, really. I can't think of anybody that really competes with them. I know I say that all the time and I don't have any jungles from him in my collection, but I would be, I just can't think of anybody that really, I mean, there's people out there don't get me wrong that do really nice jungles, but it's just the consistency of what they produce is really what gets me, I think. And that's what that's why people feel comfortable buying animals from because it is the consistency. I mean, every, I mean, Howard's got super nice jungles. There are a lot of, Andrew Parris has super nice jungles, everybody there. But with the with headhunter, it's the consistency year after year and and what they produce it. You just know that you're getting, you're going to get the animal that you're looking for when you when you buy one from them. Yeah. Yeah, you know what you're getting into. Yeah, I think when you can take carpets to that yelled at point. Yeah. Oh, crap. Yeah. All right. We don't want to get you in trouble. Yeah. Thanks, Jason. Sure. And we'll see you August 1st, I guess. All right. Awesome. All right. Facebook. Bye, guys. Thanks. Bye, Jason. Yeah. Facebook. What? Oh, you're gone. It's over. The, are we on record time now? Yes. Okay. Now, okay. I don't know. You're going to say stuff that you get around to be rudely. I figured you were going to say something and you shot up. I didn't know it was you. I, we don't have time for that. The episode's already over. Time to go through what's wrong with me. I was trying to throw out there. Jason, why are you waiting for me? I don't know. You keep interrupting me. Oh my goodness. For the love of God. For the love of God. Okay. Great job. You can get Jason at East Coast Serpent's. I know it's a Facebook page. And I believe his website is East Coast Serpent's.net. Let me just verify that. No, you're correct. It is. Okay. Yeah. Just wanted to make sure. He is the man when it comes to tigers, for sure. Not to mention some of the other cool carpets that he's working with. I know, like I said, if you're looking to get into tigers, and he's going to be producing some stuff this upcoming season, especially with some of the animals that he was talking about, for sure, you will probably want to pick something up from there. And if you are new to carpets and you're here on the East Coast, I suggest that you make your way out to a hamburger show and check out what he has in person. And you can see some of these guys like Jason Howard and Owen and me every once in a while. And, you know, some of them are racist with your presence. Yeah. Yeah. I know. They can't always be there. Some of them's gone. I know, right? We all can't live the dream. So I did get, I know Owen, you always get beat up for forgetting Boas. Yeah. I was going to wait for this for the closing, but I don't even think I told you this. You got a pair. I got a pair of Hog Island Boas. What the hell are you doing? Hogs from Sears, from the Sears line, Hog Island Boas. Yeah. You got them from Sears? No, it's the Sears. All right. There's a whole section of Sears I've been missing, and this is terrible. You don't know the reptile department? I've been missing it. I'm going to the mall. I'm going to take the elevator up to the fourth floor. It's gone on the bridge. Maybe you don't have the VIP card. You need to be the VIP. Go to hell. Anyway, yours says the I card. No, it's the problem. So, dammit. So you have, so you got Hog Island Boas, and I know you're going to get a session yet. You get, for all intents and purposes, you have them. Yes. And you're going to get a pair of Matt's Boas that he just produced. I already know you are. I saw you look at them this weekend. You're going to get those. And the way you keep talking, because Matt just got a bunch of Viper Boas, I'm pretty sure those made your list as well. Yeah, like I said, I don't know. I'm sort of going back to my Boas species. You're going to know more Boas species than I have. And then I don't want to hear you talk. That's enough of you. I know, but you know what will happen is I'll still, we'll still bust your stones. Of course you will. I mean, I just found them. I mean, the bastards. I don't know. It's just a day. They've always been a, they've always been a species that I kind of liked. Well, they're, how do you like Boas? They're gorgeous. Hog Islands are pretty. They're usually, I remember Chris had a pair of adults. They were mean as shit, but you know, they were gorgeous. So you can definitely get some really good looking Hog Islands. Yeah. Yeah. These are hopefully into the little off the cuff. I mean, eventually all of a sudden you've got all these side projects rolling around. I mean, for a while there, you had nothing but the carpets and then you started dipping in. I mean, you're on your way to having all the Python species. And now we're moving into notebook. It's all right. I still hate you for the blackface white lips. I have no blackface white lips and you have two. I, my brain, my brain still cannot comprehend this crap. But that is another episode. We will hatch that out. I think of all the times that I used to go to Sike B. And you said no, no, go for the white lips. She didn't give it. And I was like, no, man, never. I don't know. I have one gold and you got two blacks and I hate it. Anyway, hurry up and breed them so I can get those. So yeah, there's there's there's a bunch of cool things as far as as far as bows go. And I'm thinking like all this time, I'm like, Hmm. Owen could breed his, his tree bows and I know somebody that has, you know, I just like to know where I can get these from where you can get them all. Yeah. Well, I mean, I like the ones that Jamie got those tree bows were pretty. And then somebody offered me a pair of Jamaican bowels that look kind of like my Dominicans, but they're like tannish with speckles. They're cool looking. But I don't get them. I don't want no, because I don't want another species of boa that starts on kick off. What's wrong with you? Shut up. Don't, I don't want that at all. All right. Those are all you get those. You get those trade me for a citrus tiger male. Okay. Now his brain is twisting. It's twisting. That's not had a bino, but it's still a citrus tiger. That's not fair. All right. We will discuss this. We will discuss this off air. Yeah, damn it. Very good. Yeah. So I think that if we didn't get you pumped up about tiger carpets, you know, the fact story, I think to me personally, and again, I could be biased because they take up a huge amount of, you know, real estate in my collection. Yeah. I just think that they're probably one of the most rock solid carpet morphs out there. I mean, you just, you can't get any better. And there's so much refinement that can be done. So many different directions that it can be taken. Yeah. I think that, you know, I know we talked about, like, you know, Jason said it's one of those morphs you got to work hard at to add stuff and do it. But if you just know what you're doing and take the steps properly, it's not as hard as a lot of people think, you know, if you want good looking tigers, you can go and get two very good looking tigers. And then they will, for the rest of their lives, produce nothing but good looking tigers for the rest of their lives. That project's done. If you want to add some more red stuff into it, there are red tigers out there, and the projects aren't that hard. It's just usually one of those things that like put a really heavily banded animal to it expecting to get nothing but stripes. That's just stuff. So yeah, but you can have a, you can easily build a really stellar tiger project. We're just merely the purchase of one or two animals. So absolutely. Yeah, if you're somebody like Scott who's sitting there going, I'm a jungle guy, stop it and buy some damn tigers. All right, that's enough of you. He's a jungle guy. We'll make a jungle look like target. Take his ass. I'm sorry. I think of my early days of attending Hamburg, when we go there. And I remember seeing tigers and just being blown away by them. I when Jason posted up on Morelia Python, the baby red tigers were ready to go. I remember getting to Hamburg and I got there early and I ended up like, I was in line from like six in the morning to make sure I was there because I was expecting this like blood rush on Jason Bailin's table. It didn't happen, but I mean, I mean, I made sure I was first there and I got my female red tiger from him just right off the cup just got her. And that was awesome. That was the whole starting the whole tiger project. I wanted the red because it just seemed fuller than the yellows and the khakis that they had out at the time. And that's what I love about my tigers now. It's like the whole project still going. So very cool. Yes, cool. All right, close it out. All right, next week, we were talking about at the end of the show, but we have Chris Rindles from Head Hunter Reptiles and we're going to be talking jungle carpets. Nice. He works with some of the nicest ones around and we'll be picking his brain on what he's doing and what he's been doing since, well, it's been three years since the show. We're bringing back all the like the original run of guests. I love it. We went back and we pulled because Jason was one of our first guests as well. So yeah, this is awesome. Pretty cool. Yeah, he'll be we'll be talking with that next week. And Chris also works with Blood Python. So we'll probably squeeze in some talk at the at the end of the show. How could you resist? Yeah, Blood Python lovers. I know Owen is so glad that he's blocked. He's gone. Sometimes species works. Sometimes they don't. They're not wrong with that. I brought her to that barbecue at Matt's place and I'm like, take there. He's like, all right. So unfortunately, she'll be back. She's so pretty gorgeous, but she's so I know. So okay. Yeah. After that, we haven't had some green tree python talk in a while. So we're going to have Matt Mars come and join us. Nice. Matt is one of the guys along with David Newman that did the I guess it's a kind of like a care sheet breakdown over on MDF. He's been on GTP keeper radio and he's going to come and talk how he does. He keeps gondros and maybe we'll talk some about the myths and stuff about getting into him. I got to tell you, man, I think there's just easiest snake to take care of. I don't know about you, but it's just it's so simple. I don't know. It's a fall python on this stick. Was that what we were saying? Yeah, that was that was all this weekend. But anyway, yeah, and then the the following week, we have, we're going to be talking genetics and we're going to be talking all about, you know, genetics from a genetic standpoint. A lot of times in this hobby, we take for granted that we think we know what we're talking about when and really we really don't so that when we talk to, you know, actual people that are geneticists, they're kind of scratch their head. So we're going to be talking with Travis Weiland. He's going to be joining us and I thought maybe we talk maybe a little bit about Condro genetics since that seems a little more vague. Maybe go over some of the the basic genetics when it comes to, you know, just recessive and complete dominant. Some of the things that have popped up, I'm sure he'll maybe talk a little bit more in depth about that whole quote unquote pie ball diamond and the thoughts on it. I'd be curious. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but maybe we can touch base with Matt and he can help us out. But what his thoughts on some of the genetics in the Borneo short tails are. I know that they're sort of those really undefined type of things. So I also would want to talk to him about some of the genetics that we don't necessarily always think about like, you know, eating and sickness and prone to illness and all that kind of stuff. So that should be an interesting show for sure. And then after that, I'm away and Owen takes over. So I don't know what the heck he's doing. You don't get to know. So I get to tune in just like you guys do. Yes, you do. Yeah, it should be should be good. And then after that, we have some cool stuff lined up, some hint on some etc. stuff and some cool carpet people in the work. So should be awesome stuff. Before you know it, it will be Tinley Park. We'll be at the year anniversary of the calendar show. And then it will be the holiday show. And holy balls. Yeah. One more time. One more time. Moralea plays on radio. If you want to check out four seconds. I thought it really cut off. Oh, no, wait. That mine's not weird. Is it not recording anymore? Because it says minus. Yeah, no, that's that's that's fine. It's okay. I was just trying to figure this out. I'm never been able to see this stuff before. By all means, continue. Oh, yeah, you better better get used to this because I won't be here to digest. Yeah, I'm gonna screw that up. But anyway, so our website, Moralea Python radio.com. If you want to email us any questions, comments, guests, you maybe would like to hear info at Moralea Python radio.com. You know, check out our Facebook page, which is Moralea Python radio. We have the group page too, where a lot of people post up stuff during the doing show. So you might want to check that out. We also do a chat session during the show. If you want to be added on to that, just send me a message on Facebook and I add you into the group. If you have questions or comments during the during the episode, you can follow us on Twitter at Moralea Python. And if you probably the best way to get the show is on iTunes, so you can listen and subscribe on iTunes, or wherever you listen to your podcast. For myself, well, let's do this one first carpet fest. Northwest carpet fest is right around the corner. It's going to be September 12th. Doug Taylor is a host again, and it's just north of Seattle proper. They're doing a potluck style dinner. Please bring food and beverage of your choice. So I guess you have to get touched with Amy who will be able to set the stuff straight of what they're looking for. She's also looking for a head count, so you can send her a message on Facebook or probably the best way is to go to the Northwest carpet fest. Sorry, Northwest carpet fest Facebook site. So she has an idea of who's coming. They're also doing an auction for U.S. Arc, and they're looking for donations, so also they're sending that message. Let them know what you got going on. As far as myself, E.B. Moralea, you can check out my website E.B. Moralea.com. Follow me on Facebook, E.B. Moralea is probably where I update stuff on a daily basis. Also, I'm over on Twitter at E.B. Moralea and Instagram. If you have a question for me, you can email me at eric@ebemoralea.com. And I will have animals at Hamburg, so... They'll be under the table. If you're interested in anything, just let me know, and they will be there. I already sold two animals that I'll give you out to take. And one is to you. Oh my god, that's right. Damn it, I owe you money. Yes, crap. Yeah, you owe me a... It's good to owe me money rather than me owe people money. I like it. Do the problem with if I had produced maclox pythons, I wouldn't know you any money. What did you go with? Yeah, nice try. I got a Tinley Park table to pay for. Damn it, so do I, but I... Go ahead. Exactly. Yes. And the debt goes deeper. Oh, it's worse. Yeah. So yeah, and yeah, that's the... The other show that we will be at, we were officially going to be at Tinley Park. So look for us over at Carpet Row. Under Merley Park. Yep. Yep. That's all I got. Go ahead, Owen. All right, so what I got is rogue-reptiles.com is the website we actually are up to date on all the babies that are for sale. You can go over there, check them out. You can also check them out there on kingsnick.com and on rogue-reptiles Facebook page, that's Facebook and rogue-reptiles. Like Eric said, August 1st is Hamburg. I have my table back and I will not lose it again, I promise. So if you have anything you're interested in, drop us a line. We'll make sure it comes with. If not, we'll see everybody there. It's good to be back. And of course, the next show after that would probably be October Tinley Park. This Saturday is the Oak's reptile show. I messed that up, it was not last week. But it is this week. So if you have anything that you dare comment, you'd be quiet over there. I heard your mic click on, you'd be quiet. That's enough. Anyway, you have anything that you want me that I will be attending the show, not bending. But if you have anything that you want to pick up, it can be delivered to Oak's rear charge. Okay, so that's all we have for you guys tonight. So what we'll say is thank you for all for listening. And we expect and hope to see you all next week for some more Morelia Python Radio. Good night, everyone. Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL, or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Proxox. I've been herping since I was a boy, and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. 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In this morph highlight episode we will be talking about the tiger morph with the guy that put tigers on the map, Jason Baylin.
We will be talking about the history, genetics and the future of this morph in the carpet python world.