Morelia Python Radio

Antaresia pythons with Andy Grossman from Pets at Sunset

In this episode we will be talking with Andy Grossman from Pets at Sunset about pythons from the genus Antaresia. He will be sharing his expierences with keeping and breeding these, often overlooked, pythons. https://www.facebook.com/Pets.at.Sunset?pnref=lhc

Duration:: 2h 39m
Broadcast on:: 01 Jul 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Proxox. I've been hoping since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robyn and Marklin and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. I encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links, so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. If you're a buyer or breeder, you've got to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling destination full of features to help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system. Search by sex, weight, morph or other keywords and use our buy-it-now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.the reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum med. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buy your own selling, use ship your reptiles.com and take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. Ship your reptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use ship your reptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates and materials needed to ship the reptile successfully live customer support in our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder. Then visit shipreptiles.com to ship an animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one-stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome everybody to another episode of Moralia Python Radio. Tonight we're talking antiresia with Andy Grossman of Pets at Sunset. We'll be having him on in a second. He works with a variety of species of pythons, but we're going to focus in on antiresia tonight. Oh, and favorite species. I mean different. I enjoy them. I had them for a flashing moment or two, but I do not have any now. Well, we're going to convert you tonight, my friend. We have enough snakes. There are enough problems. There's never enough snakes, my friend. Never, ever enough snakes. I think the coolest thing that I saw this past week, which just a couple of days ago, was the diamond python that kind of looks like it could be a piebald. That thing reduced diamond. Who knows? A lot of people were saying chimera. I guess it's possible. Maybe it's what a super reduced pattern diamond would look like. I don't know. I mean, could it? What's that? I mean, obviously, because I think you and I were talking that we haven't done, started, no one's done, started, started, or reduced pattern, or you want to call that thing, but together, get correct? Not that it's no. Because obviously, when you see chimeras in JAG, you see the white, and it's obviously that is a super JAG that is merged with either a normal sibling or a JAG war sibling, and that's where you get the white involved with that. You see the white on this animal, and it's like, well, where the hell do the white come from? So people are speculating that a super stardust could be a white diamond, which, holy balls. I wish I knew a guy that had a bunch of reduced pattern diamonds. That's right. Yeah, I do. So, and they're saying that a super diamond merged with its normal sibling that caused the chimera that we see other people saying it's just kind of a weird little thing. Some people are heard her saying that the babies merged so early on that the pigment in the one baby got fucked up and that's why it's white. We don't fricking know, so we're going to have to wait until this thing grows up. And I mean, if it's a boy, awesome. We don't have to wait like 18 months to see what he can do. If it's a girl. Damn it. I mean, we're going to wait four years, three years till this thing's able to breed. So either way, I'm pretty sure he picked his whole back out of the clutch immediately. So what would you do in that case? Would you hold back the whole clutch? I panic. Are you kidding me? Well, here's a knife. If I had felt like a world first thing, what the hell do I do with this? Clearly, I'm not capable. I am not the guy who should be happy. Yeah, I make dumb mistakes and I've had babies kick off for no reason. Of course, everyone does that. But automatically, I'm like, your Lord, I found the guy who killed the project because I'm stupid. You know, your God, but if the clutch is small, I would try to keep it all back. But what if you have to get rid of some of the babies? Do you tell people that it's been linked to this brand new thing or do you kind of keep it on the down low? They just try to move these normal diamonds. Herp to culture quandaries, my friend. I don't know. Here's a question. I don't know. This may be stupid, but if a random mutation pops out of a clutch, right? Yeah. Does that mean that the parents are? I guess they will. Does that mean, like, okay, if you have a pie ball that just pops out of a clutch, your parents would have to be pet pied. Or something. I want to say that you're correct with certain things. See what I'm getting at? Like, if you have a mutation, it just pops out. Does that mean the mutation just pops out? Obviously, both parents have to be carriers or something to make that mutation. So I would say that if you were to breed the parents again, the following year, you could very well get more. So, like, I said, I bred two of my cousins. I got a pie ball carpet. If I bred the same pair next year, there's probably a good chance I'm going to get another pie ball carpet. Right. So is what I'm saying, but then now what about the cause? So they would be 66 66 posets. Maybe, or, or, or, or, because some mutations just happen in, like, the one, like, like, I want to say, like, the first breeding of albinos, didn't they albinos pop out? No, albino, they found the albino. Oh, they found it in a while. There's all that, right? Yeah. But the albino coastal just kind of popped out. Just kind of pop out. But then now tell me, if you bred siblings, say you raised up two of the siblings and bred them together, would you get albinos? No. My thinking, well, you could, because they would be 66% possible hits. I want to say that it was, I think it's just a genetic mutation that happens. I know it occurs in certain animals all the time, just in random. Yeah, that's what I'm kind of confused about. Would it be that the, could you possibly get a mutation from parents that are not carriers of the gene? Of course. So it could just pop out that, that, that somewhere there's a founder, right? That the gene is either turned on or turned on. Right. Yeah, some, some, some sort of something happened in the genes of that animal because this mutation. And then we as breeders are the ones who cultivate that. I mean, that's how it happened with all other animals to the first white tiger just kind of showed up. And then we've read the picture of it to everything. So, but wouldn't the, wouldn't the, wouldn't the recessive gene, wouldn't the parents have to be. I mean, I would imagine that on the, in their DNA, I guess that they would be carriers for that gene, right? I mean, and then it's just a matter of whether they're on or off. So I would say that you would have a higher, say, say you had shot the first ever albino carbon python out of a clutch of just the parents, these two adults. But I also want to say that it could probably happen at any moment, breeding those two animals. So it might not even happen in the first clutch, the second clutch, the albino could show up in like the third clutch. And then you can get another albino in the fourth clutch and then none in the fifth clutch. I think that's how that would work. Right, somewhere, but counting his head on a wall from all the. Yeah, just a footnote. I was going to say that I am not a geneticist. I'm just talking out loud, you know, once again, once again, there are people who know more than us. We're probably disgusted with the way that we're talking. Yeah, anyway, you're one of those people. Please drop us a line at info. Thanks. And we, and we would be happy to come on next week and tell everyone on this day. Yeah, I'm not afraid to. I'm wrong. Change of this bullshit. Yeah, if we make it, if we ever make a mistake, we email us, we would love nothing more than next week to set the record state record straight because we're idiots. Okay, there's a guy. He's over on the Bush league breeders club. And I believe he was recently a guest on. Herp nation. Yeah. Show, but he's a geneticist and he works with plants. He goes by a splunty on the Bush league breeders clothes, but that's a question for him because he's actually. A real life geneticist. He doesn't just play one on a podcast. You know, yeah, yeah, we can play some on the radio. Yeah. As far as me, before we get get going, there was kind of a delayed. Beginning. I don't know if we're on like a serious delay here or what, but I noticed that I was about the message you're going, where the hell are we, what's going on here. Yeah, well, it was playing. So if it played twice, then, you know, well, what are you going to do? Every time every week that I log into blog talk, there's some kind of new button here. And I don't, I don't know, man. I'm just winging it. Every time we log into blog talk, it is literally playing Russian roulette, whether it's going to work this week. Yeah, and it seems like for the storms here again. So I don't know Tuesday night in storms. It's a full moon. Crazy stuff. I'm the one with the tornado warning this time. Okay. Too bad. I'm not breeding snakes because it's a full moon. I'm sure all my snakes will shed tonight. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, as far as me, the only thing I have left is I have one clutch left to hatch out. It is a super caramel zebra jag to a caramel zebra. So all kinds of goodness can be coming out of that clutch. So we'll see. I had one egg that went bad. But other than that, I think it's a 12 egg clutch. So super caramel zebra jag to a caramel zebra. Yes. Yes. So everything will be caramel. Everything will be caramel. So you can be super caramel zebra. You potentially will have super caramel zebra. Yeah, but caramel zebra jags and potentially even super caramel zebra zebra. Yes. Yeah. More goodies to tempt you with, my friend. We're talking of the others. I mean, we're not in. We won't. So we won't. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. No one must know my shame. Anyway. It's okay. It's okay. Yeah. So tonight, I think, I don't know. I'd be curious as soon as we get Andy on here. I'm curious to see how what his thoughts would be as far as with legislation and whatnot. That's on the horizon. I wonder what the influx of new morphs into the antheria complex. I wonder if that will put these snakes more in the limelight. It's sad to say that it takes more in order to do that. But, you know, I mean, they have, I think of, what is it? The marble. That's cool shit. So I know there's tons of stuff that they're working on down there. But I don't know. They're just cool little snakes. They don't take up a whole lot of room. They need to get some some some recognition. So that's what we're going to do tonight. We're going to be talking to about, you know, I think sometimes maybe they get a bad rap because maybe they're difficult to start as babies. But we'll get into that. We'll talk some natural history. We're keeping them, breeding them. You know, and towards the end, we're going to talk a little bit about the reptile hobby, the marketplace. I'm curious to hear Andy's thoughts because he has come from a background sort of like Bill has where he's worked in the in the royal Python world. So see his takes on auctions and, you know, markets and all that kind of stuff. So without any further ado, let's get this ball rolling and get Andy on. Of course, now it's little dials just spinning and spinning and spinning and spinning and waiting. There he is. Hey, Andy, here you go. Can you hear us? God, no. No, maybe not. Andy. Oh, wait, maybe I clicked on the wrong guy. Who are you talking to? I don't know. There's somebody else to say. Hey, there he is. Yeah. You have to go. Technology's fault. We have a dumb hole. They flipped another button in there on you, huh? Yeah. He always gets enamored with a new button so he doesn't know what to push. Understand. The first shiny one that pops up. Exactly. Every time I'm the host of the show for the week, I'm like, I don't know what to do. They start getting all the buttons. So, you know, yeah. That's why I'm not in control. Anyway, Andy, what was the show? Why don't you start with telling us what got you into refhouse? When did you start? Well, I've been enamored with them pretty much my whole life. I've just thought they're amazing animals and just held them in awe. But I wasn't really something I wanted to own. And I always kind of had that ingrained parental past on fear of who snakes, bad, scary. And I was hanging out. I actually have a partner in my reptile business. My best friend, James Royal, helps me out with it. And he and I were actually hanging out quite some years back. And I was mentioning to him, I really wish I could meet someone who was normal and kept snakes. And, you know, not somebody that lived in a trailer with a 20-foot retic that they fed once every other month. And when you walk in the back room, it's like tracking your every movement through the room. I just wanted to meet a normal person that kept a snake. And, you know, just get a chance to hold it and try to get over my fear of it. And he was like, "Really? Like, you want another beer?" I was like, "I love another beer." And he came back in the room and dropped a beer in my lap and a ball python. And it was a miniature freak out for like a minute. And then once I realized he didn't want to bite me, it's like, "Oh, my God. Like, this thing is the coolest thing in the world. Like, I got to get one of these. Like, this is ridiculous." You know, screw aquariums. You can stack these things on top of each other. Awesome. So, yeah, that led to one snake and one led to a few snakes. And a few snakes led to a lot of snakes and a lot led to trying to figure out, you know, where I'm going to sleep at tonight. But, yeah, it's good stuff. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Excellent. So, you did start with ball pythons, and then move on to... Actually, I started with antiresia pythons. That was my first PC I ever got. Okay. When my partner James was working at the local pet store, and he was like, "Hey, we're going to order these snakes in." And I think they'd be perfect for you. They're called children's pythons. And at first I was slightly offended. I was like, "Well, no, I'm an adult. Like, I don't need a kid's snake. What's an adult snake? What can I get for that?" And so he had to explain to me the whole name of John G. Children's, and that's what they were named after in honor of him. And he ordered in a trio to the store, and I went down and looked, and I fell in love with the first one I held, and I was like, "Yeah, I'm taking this one home." And it was like maybe two weeks later, and I was like, "Okay, I'm taking the other one home that still lasts. That thing's cool, too." And yeah, I was just hooked from there. And the ball python didn't come to a little bit afterwards because I was looking for something that got just a little bit bigger. And then I kept looking for a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger. I stopped at Boaz. That's my cutoff. Okay, that's a good cutoff. In my opinion, I'm trying to convince my cousin to stay away from re-tick, but Eric isn't helping. Anyway, so you kind of had your first double antirigia, and then you kind of expanded the project. Did you kind of turn back towards the antirigia at a certain point to focus, or did you just keep building on your original children's pythons? Well, we kept building on the original children's. Every time we get a chance to pick up another one, we kind of add one here, add one there, see something that had real nice bright colors to it as a young juvenile and you know, snag that. We don't necessarily have a lot of adults, but we have a few. And as I was building those, I kind of started, I mean, I liked my ball pythons that I had started to acquire, but I was just buying normals at first, and then I started to discover the world of morphs. I mean, they're pretty, and they're eye-catching, and I enjoy playing with them, but I enjoyed breeding the ants every year. I mean, they're a fun species to get started, you know, it's a little bit of a challenge. They're super cool, their feeding is just spot on. Every once in a while, you have one to be a pain in the butt, but it's not like keeping ball pythons. They feed really well, and so, I mean, I still enjoyed working with it, but I kind of lost a little bit of focus on it, looking at ball pythons. And then David Kelly actually got a couple of children's pythons, and I hadn't really seen many other people who were working with them, and I guess I just hadn't really looked. And it geeked me out when I saw he had gotten them, I was like, "Oh my God, someone, I know they got someone." "You want some babies? We can work something out. I'll set you up with some stuff." And from his excitement of what I sent him, it was just like, "All right, well, I know that I really need to start buckling down on these guys and picking a path, you know, actually trying to make brighter babies by bringing the stuff that has been making the brighter babies together." And this year has been absolutely fantastic, and I couldn't be happier with the babies that we've hatched out. I mean, I think we definitely have the path picked of which way we need to go with what we currently can get in the States. Awesome. So now you keep quite a few different species. You might have given us a quick overview of the collection, what do you have in the main focus? So between the two of us, we keep all pythons, children's pythons, spotted pythons. I have multiple carpets, jungles, colstole, morphs, some bridles. I have a congrove. Then we have James has been bringing Chinese water snakes for the last few years. And then we have some false water cobras as well. So, you know, a little bit of everything to keep yourself happy. And then I have three boas, actually, that are -- I have no plans to do anything with except pump rats and do. I need something to feed my retired reader rats off to. Talk to Owen. He's quite the bow guy. Shut up. You have quite the group. False water cobras that they were kind of twitchy. They are totally twitchy. They calmed down with some handling, but right now I just have so much stuff that I'm taking care of. I don't handle them. I just flick them a mouse every week. They're spazzes, complete nutters, spazzes. With et cetera and size headaches, you open the tub and they're already in a bad mood. Oh, great. It reminds me of several species. Anyway, what's it like working with a partner? It's actually pretty fantastic. He doesn't really want to be upfront, you know, on the Internet, you know, dealing in the middle of the reptile world drama. He likes working with the animals. There's stuff that we both like that maybe don't necessarily want to donate room for my place, but I would have no problem dropping coin on it in a heartbeat. So, you know, I mean, all by projects, you know, that I would love to work on. I just don't have time and down at his place with him for the duration. I mean, the false water cobras are going down there soon, I promise. I've been having a really good time playing with those. But it's really great. I mean, I've heard horror stories from people throughout the years of partnerships and reptiles. I mean, anytime the two of us argue is like, you know, he, you know, I sold, you know, the last, like, group of babies and, you know, there's another group going out and I'm trying to give them the money for it. He's like, I know you're paying to feed those things. I'm like, I know I got the last bit of money to take it, man. Like, don't make me go just pay off your bill at work for you because I will do it, damn it. Nice. Wow. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. That's things that I've thought about that. But, you know, I guess you have to find the right person. You know, you really do, you know, because you don't want to have it in the back of your mind that someone's trying to just screw somebody else over. You know, it's really got to be transparent. You know, you got to trust each other and you got to be doing it because you'd be doing it for any other reason, other than you love it. Yeah, I mean, you can't. Right. You can't be into it for the money, both of you and expect to still be friends afterwards. Right. Right. Right. Very cool. Okay. So maybe we can get into some, just maybe a general overview of the antiresia complex for those morality of people that maybe don't know what antiresia even means. You know, we talk about maybe the different species. So the listeners have an idea of what we're going to be talking about tonight. Yeah. So, you know, there's four members in the family. There's the antiresia childrinae, which is the children's pythons. And then the maculosis, which are the spotted pythons. There's the stimps and eye, which are the stimps and pythons. And there's also an ongoing debate about whether it's, you know, there's, you know, two subspecies to the stimps and eye. I, you know, I'm a lumper. I'm not ashamed to admit it. I just, that's what I learned to ask. That's what I'm leaving it as. Right. Yeah. And then there's the percensus, which are the, the pygmies. They're, they're the four smallest python species on the planet. You know, children's pythons on average about 36 inches. There's some big investments. I have a couple of females that are, they're only around about 32 inches range. They're about straight, eight years old now. So, I mean, they're, they're not a huge snake. The spotted pythons maculosis, they get to be on average around 42, maybe. And we got a couple, we got a, we got a girl getting to be pretty decent size. And the, the percensus, they don't have personal experience with working with yet. They're, they're definitely on the list for, for very, very soon. But everything that I've read on them, the stimpsons, they get to be around 30-ish inches, maybe a little bigger than that. They're slightly smaller than the children's from what I've read. And then the pygmies, the percensus, those guys get to be, I mean, I, I've read around 18 to 24. I'm sure that some females probably get bigger than that with age. But, yeah, around 18 to 24 inches, which is, it's a little pocket python there. Wow. That's like Greetik baby size. Yeah. Yeah. It's totally. Wow. Yeah. Okay. You know, you know, from, from, from what I've seen, I mean, they're, they're, you know, colors. I mean, there's certain patterns of them stand out. You know, I mean, for the most part, I can, I can look at one of them, be like children's, spotted, stimps and percensus. And they're, they're, they're pretty easy for me to pick at this point in time. But I mean, they're, they're kind of a nondescript two-tone brown snakes. You know, stuff that we have here in the States isn't flashy and bling blingy. But they still have a distinctness to them. They, they have an iridescent select most snakes. So, you know, you get them in the sunlight and you get some nice rainbows to them. Sure. I find that, I find that the cool thing about those guys is I have a pair of, actually, I have a male that I got from David Kelly that you produced. And then I have a female, I have a female that came from Justin Joolander. And, um, I don't know. At first, I didn't think that I would like them, but it was one of those things. Like when you actually have them in your hand, we say that a lot, right? Where you have something in your hand, you get a whole different view of it. But it was so cool that this snake that's, you know, maybe two, three foot is a python. And, you know, I'm just used to dealing with bigger, bigger snakes. And it was, I don't know, they're just really cool, cool snakes. Oh, totally. You know, there's nothing better than being able to keep an adult snake and a, you know, I mean, you're going to go to the smaller side of a tub, you know, 28 quart tub. Yeah. We got, we got a lot of ours in 32 quarts right now. Okay. Yeah. I might bump up to a CV, 71 day, but I mean, you know, they stay in a small box. They eat, you know, a large adult mice. And there's really not a lot to take in care of them. Right. Does that, I mean, from the environment that they come from, does that play into the, are these are they sort of waterproof here? Yeah. I think so. You know, I mean, you provide them a hot spot. It doesn't have to be very humid. And I mean, I give them a water bowl. I keep it about like 90 years on one side. I try to, I try to replicate, you know, what they would see and not very as far as, you know, being in a, you know, rocky outcropping areas with caves and try to, try to give them like a hide on one side and a water bowl. And, you know, some of our adults are in 32 quart tubs of lids. And from some, everything I read, you know, a lot of, a lot of children's pythons in the wild are found hanging out of entrances of caves, you know, waiting to, to, to snack back in the evening as they leave the caves. And they will bleach themselves into the crack between the top and the lid and just hang there. Right. Yeah. Each, each night you'll, you'll walk through and like pull a tub out and check and it'll be wedged in the top looking down. Just waiting. Wow. That's cool. Awesome. Yeah. And, and while you hit on, you're keeping the, what's the next, the next one that you want to add to the, to the group? Probably, probably Stemstens this year, just because they're, they're a little closer to the, the price ball park of what I can probably afford. Yeah. I got some more Morelli. I got a, you got to add to the house. Yeah. Nice. Nice. Well, we don't have a problem with that, you know, but. No. Never. Yeah. I don't know if you can actually have enough. These things are addictive. Yeah. I, I cracked there. I'm like, there's too many snakes many because that's never, that's, that's a lie. I'm like, that's true. I'm, I kind of like use every square foot of my room. That's like, that's not one spot. Left open. Yeah. I didn't in the cubic feet. Yeah. I, I, I have just in the room that I can open the tubs on this side. As long as I close them, then I can open the ones on the other side of the aisle. Exactly. Yeah. I know it's a little bit off topic as far as antarisha goes, but what are you thinking about, uh, adding as far as Morelli goes? Oh, I need some, I need some albino stuff. Uh, in my light. Oh, that's, there it is. Yep. So are you a purist or are you a, uh, a crosser? Oh, I'm, I'm both. I'm both. I'm both of my life. I'm a purist about certain things. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm, you know, I, I'm, I'm willing to dabble in brettles. Maybe have some time as far as like crossing them into some other stuff. I have a caramel brettles that I would like to see where I can take that to down the road. But, uh, like certain aspects of my brettles, like that, it's got a stake here. I don't want to cross into other stuff. Um, other things, I'm like, no, I'm totally alright with making a mud of that. I got no worries. I did, my, my only real worry I ever have with, with the butts of anything. And I mean, Eric, Eric saw my, my picture today of a, my new little bastard, uh, inter-easy I got. And, uh, I mean, I, I don't have issues with it. I know exactly what I purchased and I know what I'm going to call it. And I know what I'm going to tell the person who buys the, the offspring from me. What it is. And my, my biggest worry is, is that person going to remember a week from now that he bought a mud and he's going to continue to let everyone know that the mud, when he throws it or breeds it to other stuff and then sells the offspring. And it's just, I mean, it's just people being responsible. Yeah. That's what you have to rely on. And, uh, from, from, from my experience with some of humanity. That's, that's a high. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You kind of screwed. So. All right. Well, hopefully it will work out. I had to find that picture of the bastardized. Yeah. That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, well, he's dimson by maculose across and, uh, I just, little sucker glows, man. I, I, you know, I've never seen anything quite as bright as it before. Yeah. I had fought it off for a bit. You know, I saw it as a baby when it first came in and, uh, you know, my, my partner showed it to me. I was like, uh, yeah, it's all right. I already bought that other month that came in and I liked the stripe on the older app. Yeah. I was like, I'm good. Don't worry about it. And then he was like, oh, you know, I was in last week. He was like, Hey, that little munchhead. Do you want to take a look at it? I was like, yeah. And whatever. Like, you know, if, if I have to look at it, he's like, I think you owe it to yourself. You know, he opens up the tub and I was like, Oh, I need that. I can't, I can't, I can't live without that. It didn't happen. I'm like, I want to be a purist. I want to be a tourist. And then here comes, you know, Eric, where there's a little place and then I'm dancing to a different tune. So it's the problem. It eventually was an awesome snake. I need it. So, you know, I don't know if anybody can relate to this, but, you know, here's, here's how I look at it. For some reason I have this, this blind. Blinders on when I think of carpet pythons when it comes to, um, crossing stuff. Maybe it's my own, like, my own belief into like, make my stuff more, more legitimate or whatever that I kind of believe that they're kind of just one group of pythons and like, you know, it's just, I don't know. It's, but there's like, yeah, yeah. And then there's lines that I won't cross. Like, it's like, oh, wait a minute. I don't know if I can do a brettles cross. I don't, I don't know if I can do that. And then what's even, what's, what's even crazier is is that when I step outside of Morelia and then like, if I'm thinking about my anterasia or I'm thinking about, uh, bloods and short tails or I don't even know what else gets gross. Even condros. It's kind of like, oh, man, I don't, I don't know if that's something that I could do. You know, I don't know. It's weird. You know, but for carpets, it's just, uh, put anything with anything. We're going to get a cool look. With the switchy gore. So, you know, it's fine. So. Is that sort of a big deal when it comes to anterasia though? Yeah. There's not a lot of people doing it that I've seen. But there is definitely some, some hatred towards it. And I don't blame anyone for, for dislike. I mean, I have a love hate relationship with it. Obviously, I, you know, I bought them because I had to have them and, and now I'm like, oh, well, you know, I got to, I got to breed them to see if I can refine that stripe and make that color better. But, you know, only the best ones are going to get to stay. The rest of them like, you know, I mean, might need to find something to feed them off to just so I don't worry about what's going to happen to them down the road. Or you're not going to get ostracized from, from the hobby for, for being a hybrid maker. Yeah. Yeah. There would recommend blackheads. I would recommend the monitor of some kind. But I'm sorry, I'm sorry, man, it'd be the blackheads definitely. That's another one that needs to be checked off the list one of these days. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Probably go to poor man's blackhead first and get a, get a couple of wamas. Yeah. All right. So, yeah. Can you tell us how you keep the antiretia and how you move them up cage wise as they mature? Like, where do you start in the baby rack? Yeah. So, we, we do start baby racks. And for the last seven years that I've been starting in Teresa, I've been doing it in six quart tubs because that's what I had. And this year is the first year I ordered a rack from reptile basics. They got their inner design 68 quart rack from them. So, it's like a, basically it's like a pencil box. You know, they're like three inches wide, two inches tall. And then they're like a foot long. And they're, they're, they're perfect for antiregia. I mean, they, they hatch out at between like six to 10 grams ish size. So like, you know, small pencil, very small pencil. And they're just, they're perfect in that size drawer. And I'd keep them in there for a year and probably be pushing it. But the, I start them in that, you know, all I give them is a paper towel by the Costco. And they're going to go and collect the size paper towels. And just the one, one sheet folded in half fits perfectly inside. And, you know, they, they hide our knee paper towel. They don't even need a hide up there. They just spend all their time wedged in between the sheet. And, you know, give them a deli cup on one side for water bowl. And they're, they're set. And they're going to remove them up out of the baby rack into what 32 courts? Well, they'll go from, from the inner design pencil boxes. I'll put them into six courts at about a year if they're still in the, in the house in my collection. Which looks like this year there'll be, there'll be a few holdbacks. And they'll, they'll stay in there till about a year and a half to two ish years. And that point in time they're, they're well ready to go into either a 16 court. Or I bump them straight in like a 28 or a 32 depending on what I have. And they, they go like gangbusters from there. So what are the attempts to keep them at from babies to adults? I keep my temps the same. I, I keep everyone at 90 on the hot side. And that's, that's at the basking site. And then the background temperature of my room. I'm in Northern California, like way, way, way north California on the coast. And so we're, you know, like 60 degrees year round ish. You know, maybe dropping down into the 40s, high 40s in the wintertime during the day. So, you know, the background temperature of the room will be, you know, with, with all the racks running maybe 70. So they, they get a decent thermal gradient from hot side to cool side. And they, they just kick their, their favorite spot. And I find them all over the tub, you know, whether, whether it be pressed against the back, getting, getting heat on the basking site. Or all the way up front, quote, around the water bowl, you know, ready to eat a finger that opens the drawer. All right. So speaking of eating fingers, what do you start them off as? Because that's a tiny, tiny baby. I start them on a day old pinks and I do frozen pinks. So it's like extra small, smallest ones I can get my hands on. And then, you know, as, as they start to, I probably about meal five, I start to bump up to full size pinks. Yeah. And then probably around like meal seven, I'm starting to get ready to bump them up to fuzzies or large pinks. And by, by that point in time, I'm starting to feel comfortable about them being solid feeders and starting to be ready to look at new homes. And I like to, I like to get, you know, a good few months of feeding into them first, personally, just to make sure that they, they're on it. Because, you know, as babies, they, they don't always decide that food is something they walk on their own. Sometimes their, their, their mind has to be switched to that mode of thinking. Right. Okay. So do you have any tricks or tips if you have some babies that are being little bastards and won't go to food? I imagine you've got a few. Yeah. Well, so my, my typical feeding, when I, when I start everybody, this year I tried something slightly different. Years past, I just went straight to sentine, and I use green and old, I'll buy like one or two dented and dinged and old and euthanize them, check them in the freezer and use them to disrupt the pinks against when I feed. This year, that's talking, that's talking to a friend of mine and he given me a rundown on how he was starting some, some stubborn snakes, and some advice that he'd gotten as I got. I kind of, I kind of dig that idea. And so what, what he had told me was that he was taking their water away from them the day before feeding. And then when he would feed, he was offering the, the rodent hot and wet. And just, you know, he, I think he was actually offering it to him. I place it, you know, on a little delicate lid. And they, they seem to go, at least 75% of them this year. I just like went right over the pink to check it out, like drink water off of it and, you know, mouth is just opening up and taking the pink down. Wow. So I've, I've, I've done like four weeks of feeding on them now, and I've just got, last week I just started sending some pinks for the ones that haven't started eating yet, and most of them took their first one. So it's looking like this year is actually going to be pretty easy. I have, I have a cyst fed, which is incredibly hard on a, you know, tiny, tiny six gram baby that doesn't want to eat anything on its own. And he's trying not to, trying not to crush a snack while you're shoving a pink in its mouth. I've actually done, you know, the, the pinky pump with a little tube, tube syringe to feed them. And I mean, it works, but it's a pain in the butt to do. It is. It is. I used the pinky pump for one year, and that dumb serrated disc in there is worthless. So. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I actually have a little blender just for rodent problems that I may have to deal with for problems for years. I don't use it for anything else. So make sure not to confuse it with the margarita blender. No. Okay. All right, no, no, no, no, no, no. I have one female in our collection that I think is pushing the the realm of a little bit of a little bit of that. Yeah. Have I seen any problems in obesity? Yeah. I have one female in our collection. That I think is, is pushing the, the realm of, of obese. And it's, it's primarily because she's such a trash can. You know, I mean, some nights you're like, ah, one of you is a, you know, it's always going to be one of the boys. You know, it's like, ah, thank you. Yeah. Thanks, Dick. You didn't want to eat. That's, that's great. Now I have an extra mouse. You know, I'm like, she's sitting there looking at you like, I'll eat it. I'll eat it. I know you'll eat it. You'll eat anything. And so, I mean, we, we, in the last year, we've tried to cut back on how much she's getting fed to get her, get her lean again. Cause she was, she was getting a little rotum there. I showed up one day to look at snakes. I was like, ah, I think I see a little skin between those scales. Like she, she needs a diet. We need a spread mill and maybe a little hamster wheel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. I had that question because I had a pair of granite spotted pythons that, you know, I apparently bet again, were just like trash cans. So I just kept feeding them out of them. They got huge. Yeah. Yeah. And then they never bred for me because I'm pretty sure I like made them so fat that they didn't want to move. Yeah. Out of all the children's pythons this season, she laid the biggest clutch, but she had, I'd have to actually look at my records. Is that a four or five slugs, I think, in her clutch? Whereas all the other ones, the children and I were, were damn near perfect. You know, they're, they're like no slugs in their clutches at all. The eggs are, we're absolutely beautiful with hers. I think the obesity definitely played a little bit into the, the egg count not being as high as it should have been. Really? Yeah. I think so. I mean, she's, she's delivered for us, you know, last, you know, few years. She's usually been our biggest producer and of the best looking eggs. And it's just a thought, you know, I mean, I don't know what it would have been because we cycle. We cycle everybody the same, the racks are all the same temperatures. I mean, maybe, maybe the Mayo didn't get a good shot in there, but he did an awesome job on the female that laid just before her. So the only thing that's different out of any of them that, that I can see, you know, in my observations is just the fact that she is a bit more obese than any of the other girls that we have. Interesting. Did the babies come out? Like, did, did that clutch hatch? That clutch did hatch. For the babies. And some of the other ones. No, no. Average, they were a little bit smaller, but, you know, by only a gram or two. Everything else that, that hatched out, the babies were a little bit more robust. And it's actually that clutch is the one that I've had to sit with the most. The rest of them have been banging the rodents pretty quickly. Okay. Cool. Well, let's talk a little bit about breeding these guys. Are they difficult to breed in captivity as far as pythons go? Not at all. Not at all. And I mean, it may be partly because, I think it's easy. It may be partly because of where we're located at. Because our, our rooms just basically cycle naturally. I don't have to drop the temps. I keep my, my basking site pretty much the same year round. And the only thing that drops is the background temperature in the room. And they, you know, they, they, they cycle themselves. I mean, as soon as, as soon as November starts rolling around, those girls move to the cold side of the tub and spend all their time over there. They'll be bull-wrapping or just hanging out on that side. And, you know, we start introducing males, you know, mid to late November, maybe beginning of December, depending upon enough. They, they, the, the males have gone off food and are starting to look like they may want to breed as well. And, you know, we, we introduce them. And I mean, those, they're, they're ninjas when it comes to fornicating. And I mean, we've been breeding antiresias for, for going on eight years. And I've, we've seen, we've seen two calculations from, from the granite max that we had this year. And like, that's been it. And, and eight years. And, I mean, I'm, I'm not like in spite of my snakes full of time. I try to give them their, their privacy. But I can't tell you how many, you know, hundreds of ball python copulation photos I have. And like, I got like one for, for maculose. And that, that, that represents all the intrigues. And I've, I've hatched way more of those things than I have of the ball pythons. And, and it's just, it's kind of, it's kind of mind-blowing. Wow. They do it out in the open and don't care if you walk in. That's what's cool about them. So. If you say so. What about a, so. So basically these are, what was I just going to say? Oh, size for breeding. What's, what are we looking at female wise and male wise? Or do you go by age? I've been going by age. We didn't start weighing them regularly as adults until, until really, in the last season, going into this season. We started throwing some on the scale because I was, I was hearing some, some weights from people that are like, God, that just seems a little small to me. And, and I mean, we, we didn't, you know, didn't power feed. We waited until they were two years old going into the, the end of their, their second year of life, you know, the beginning of their third year, which would be the, their upcoming season to breed. And, and we, we, we paired our, our boy to our three girls we had. And, I mean, they, they, they walked up and got the job done. You know, at that point in time, I would say all the girls were about two and a half feet long. And, I mean, you know, nice, nice muscular tone and, you know, probably a size of a, you know, I'd say like a 50 cent piece across. Okay. Maybe a little smaller than that. And now, I mean, they're, now they're longer. The girls isn't, isn't much bigger around. But I mean, she got through one of the girls on the scale and she's like 699 grams. And I've, I've heard of people breeding them, you know, a lot smaller than that. So, yeah, I, you know, I would say if it were me, I'd go by, I'd go by feel more than anything else. You know, I mean, with, with the, with the, with the children's pythons, you know, two and a half to three years old and, you know, a healthy, you know, feel to it. You know, a muscular feel. You know, they're not a, they can be somewhat robust in size, but now you see pictures of wild snakes and they're never these fat sausages that you see in captivity. Yeah. Yeah. No kidding. What about as far as males? I mean, you know, typically with pythons, the males can be like, for instance, if you're talking to carpet pythons. You're talking 500 grams. Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen, I've seen guys of all pythons in like the three, 400 gram range and it just, I've never, I've never had success doing it, but I've seen it done. Yeah. Yeah. We've, we've, our, you know, when we first got them, we bought them as all animals that were the same age. So our male was, was two and a half when we started breeding. I think the, I think the youngest I would even attempt would probably be about a year and a half. And when I threw that guy on the scale last, I'd say he was probably around like 150 ish grams. Okay. But yeah, I, I prefer to, I prefer to get a little bit of maturity to my males. Same with my females. Right. And I, you know, all the species that I've bred. I've been finding that, you know, giving them the, the extra year over when I want to start breeding them. I seem to be able to breed them to more females and get better crutches. And get, you know, get, get my male to, to carry through the season without totally shutting down on me. Because that's a problem that I've had a few times before with, with younger males where, you know, you, you get them going early in the season and then all of a sudden they're like, nah, don't want to do it. It's not going to happen. So yeah, I locked this one girl. I'm done. I'm out. I'm going to go hide the corner of my cage. Nice. Is there a, just in general, I think everyone should, I mean, yeah, I mean, people should do what they want. I, I like to wait an extra year on, on just about everything I do. I think, I think it makes sense. You know, I think you just, you're going to get better results. And maybe for long term, it's probably better for the, for the snakes. For the females and males. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of, I kind of in the mindset, I don't see, I mean, to me, either a male's going to do it or they're not, you know. And I guess the only, yeah, the only drawback that would probably be with that is that if, you know, if, if you shoot in blanks or, you know, maybe you get bad fertility, you know, because he's too young, I guess that's possibility. And then the female goes through all the, all the motions and so much, you know, energy is put into creating a clutch and then you don't get any results from it. You know, I guess that could be a drawback, but I don't know. Get a bunch of, uh, varina's food. Yeah, right. I still, I feed them to the blackhead now and we'll stick with the, uh, Jurassic Park over at this place. Yep. Yep. Yep. So what are we talking? Uh, I mean, is it, you said you've never seen them walk. So have you caught ovulation? Is it easy detected in these guys? I have, I have totally caught ovulations with them. Uh, that's pretty obvious. Um, ovulation. Um, I have, I've witnessed some, some pre-ovulation sheds, um, which have, a couple have fooled me before. Um, I, one year we, I think we separated a little bit too early, uh, because she looked like she was, she was building, she was definitely building. Um, but we, uh, we separated early because I was fooled by the, uh, the pre-ovulation shed. And then we actually caught her ovulation. And then she went through the post-ovulation shed. And when we found the clutch, uh, she was, she was not stoked. Um, even she was like disappointed in the clutch. She left all the eggs in the laybox and she was out looking for her meal. She doesn't say I fucked those eggs. Yeah, they suck. Like everyone. I don't want any of them to do with them. I'm, I'm not, I'm not hatching those. You know, and all of them looked okay. The rest were, were all duds and, uh, and even those four ended up sweating. Out on me. And they didn't do all of their. Wow. Do you think it's just because of, uh, the timing of the mail, taking the mail out? Yeah. Yeah. I, I think it was, uh, you know, we, we removed our mail early and, uh, right. Because because we got it, we got other clutches, just not, not from her. Right. Cool. Uh, so. So what about as far as, um, clutch size with these guys? Uh, I guess first I would say the children's and then what about, uh, maculosa? Uh, so, uh, I, with the, with the max, I'd say they're a little bit bigger clutches. Probably going to be like, you know, 13, 14 plus on average. Uh, the children's, uh, we're, we're seeing. I would say 10 is to the small side of things. Uh, and 16 would be a little bit of one of our larger. I've seen other people have a lot bigger clutches than that. Um, I'm, I've not been that fortunate yet to see a giant clutch out of our girls. I mean, I thought 16 was, was pretty big and, you know, there's been a few people that have smoked that by a long shot. But, uh, uh, you know, we, we almost always get fantastic looking eggs out of the girls. So, and you really can't ask for much more than that. Uh, yeah. The eggs are, uh, eggs around like 15-ish grams range maybe, uh, for, for a larger egg. You know, I'd say average, uh, hatchling size, probably around like, probably 10 grams, uh, size of things, maybe around 6 grams. I don't, I don't usually see a lot of smaller babies, but it happens. Um, and then to a larger scale, I had a few 12 and 13 gram hatchlings this year and those guys are little beasts. I mean, they're, they're, they're ready to eat fingers off the stay out of the egg. Wow. Okay. I'm trying to put that in perspective as you're saying that thinking that like my average carpet python is probably 25 grams. You know, half that size. Wow. Ooh, that's tiny. Yeah. Yeah. That's really funny. Uh, it makes those, uh, it makes those hatchling racks really nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a 71 quart tough. Yeah. Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, that, that, that rack showed up and, I mean, I, I hugged that thing. I was like, oh my God. I can fit so many antarigia babies in one small area. It's beautiful. I love you. It's perfect. Yeah. If I could fit a ring on you. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was, it was the highlight of my season so far. I mean, I've, I've been, I've been happy with everything that I've hatched and I've been happy with the ovulations and the, the clutches I see coming up. But, uh, as it was, it was starting to get to be a little bit of a panic looking at, uh, how many empty baby spots that I had. How many clutches I had coming up and the, the rack hadn't shown up yet. They're like, oh my God. I have no idea where I'm going to put all this stuff at. I'm going to be in trouble. Right. And then the rack showed up and I was like, oh, thank God. All right. I'm cool. I got plenty of room. I can do whatever I'm going to breach the horse. Right. Nice. The verdict. Now time for more. Exactly. What about, uh, have you ever done maternal incubation with these? Uh, any other species? I, I have not done. Am I yet? And that's probably something that we're going to do next year with at least one of the clutches of children. I, um, I, I wanted, I wanted to see some, some babies coming out of mom's coils. Uh, we were thinking about doing it this season. And the only reason that I decided that I wanted to incubate everything was I've been, I've been busted. I've been busted in my ass trying to promote these little guys. And, you know, in the last year and a half, um, I've, I've been developing a nice little waiting list of people looking for animals. And, you know, I, I got, I got into the point to where I was like, God, I can, I can breed everything. And, I mean, I got, I got people looking for, for everything I produce. So, I mean, I, I, you know, I got no problem going, going full production for a year to, uh, to meet what everybody wants. And then, uh, you know, I'll be a little bit more selective in what I make for next. See, so I can see it in my clutch and, you know, maybe only do one other repeat pairing from this season to, uh, try to make in a few more holdbacks of what I've seen come out this year. Right. Well, let me ask you this with, um, well, first, my question would be, is there different lines of, uh, you know, like you see in carpets, there's, there's different bloodlines and stuff, or is it all? Um, you know, I'm, I'm not really familiar on it. Um, I mean, I hear the stories, um, and rumors and whatnot. Uh, Nick or Justin would be awesome people to ask about that one. Um, yeah, I mean, I know there's some documented stuff in the states, uh, that we can trace back, but, uh, I know a lot of it was stuff that, you know, David and Tracy had gotten their hands on and bred. And, you know, who knows what it got mixed into from there. Um, yeah, I mean, my children's pythons look like children's pythons. Um, you know, I'd be lying if there wasn't a slight question in the back of my mind, like, you know, did somebody somewhere along the lines when these were, you know, Lisa's children and I, and everything was, was Lisa's children and I, whether it was a spotted or a children's. You know, did, did somebody parrot, you know, at some point in time and God knows what kind of muddy waters I got now. Right. So, I mean, I call them children's pythons. I think they're children's pythons. They look like children's pythons. You know, it's always that nagging down the back of my mind, you know, because they're not, they're not lineage traceable animals. We picked a, picked some up from East Bayvive area, which, you know, John and then produced down there and some came through Cal Zoo and some came through Mark and Kim Bell. So, I mean, we got a smattering of stuff that we picked up and try to, you know, we keep track of where it came from. And then we, we, we, you know, just, you know, selectively breed it for what we want to, repeatedly make from there. How has your progress with that bit? Like, what do you, what are you specifically shooting for? Is there a specific look? Is it striping, dollar? Well, so, so with the children's, we're, we're kind of going along the line, because I've, I've seen a couple of different phenotypes of the babies when they pop out. There, there are pinker animals with redder blotches. And then there, there are darker animals with darker blotches. Excuse me. And I've kept a few of each back. I, I usually, you know, because, because I, I do this for me. So, I usually save some animals every year that I have not necessarily intentions of ever, ever keeping forever. But I want to see how they age and what happens with them and not just rely on, you know, hopefully someone's sending me a picture, you know, a year or two down the road of, of how it's turning out. And I mean, I end up selling them off at sexed animals most of the time anyways. But it's nice seeing how, how they've turned out. And it's been awesome with, with David keeping contact with me. I've been able to see how the stuff that I, I sold to him has been turning out. I mean, Jesus, there's some of those snakes that's like, "Holy shit, why'd I send that to you?" I don't know if that was a dumb idea. That should have stayed. Yeah. But, but, you know, I know exactly what those animals look like that I sent to him. And so now I'm looking at the babies that are, that are hatching out now. And I'm like, "Oh, so I know exactly which one of you guys are going to be hot." And I know which one of you guys are going to be the darker animals that end up getting kind of a, a ghosty, fleshy sort of appearance to it as they get older. It's almost like the, a lot of spots disappear into the pattern and then go away. And so yeah, I just, you know, I'm, I'm seeing where, where those babies have started. And I want to start holding a few more of them back and raising them up and then breeding them back again. Yeah. I mean, a lot of the stuff I'm seeing out of Oz is, is all wine brand animals. Not like a lot of it is recessive per se or, or dominant traits. I mean, it, it is to an extent, but, you know, a lot of it seems to be line bread that they, they, you know, keep breeding together. And they're making some smoking stuff over there. And I'm hoping that, you know, through, through my limited resources, I can, I can start doing the same thing, you know, with what we have here. Yeah, I wonder, I wonder with these species of pythons that are not often, you know, like really selectively bread, where it's, you know, generation upon generation. I wonder if there's possibility to really, I mean, I would, I would imagine that there would be like, you know, to super refine these things to where they probably would get somebody's attention at a show. I mean, sadly, that's the only way that you get people into, into a species or, you know, want to work with a particular animal, unless they put it, unless you got it in their hands, then maybe it's a different thing altogether. But, you know, I mean, I don't know, you see it, what would be different, you know, why would they be any different? Yeah, no, I don't, I really don't think they are. I mean, part of, part of my ball python projects, just because I'm a geek and I apparently have nothing better to do, I hate alien heads. I don't like bots. They drive me up the wall. And I have a theory on melanin bleed from having more of the black in the patterning that, you know, you'll end up with darker brown or muddy your snakes. It's a personal theory. I, you know, don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I'm working on it. And I started with, with normal ball pythons that had very little spotting or alien head, and I'm about three generations deep into, into lion breeding them now. And I got animals that are coming out relatively banded and almost like no spots on them whatsoever, back one or two spots. And I'm, you know, I'm certain that, you know, all it takes is a few generations, you know, if you have, if you can see it, you know, and if it's, you know, I mean, if you can see it and if it's happening, you know, some, some things, you know, are going to be be horetable, you know, whether it's the mode of heritability is, is your, your typical incomplete dominant or dominant or recessive or, or it's just, you know, a phenotype that seems to keep getting passed on. And I think you can refine all of it. If you, if you keep working at it. Yeah, I mean, my, my goal with, actually with ball pythons is kind of similar to what you're doing is that I just don't think that there's a lot of people that really take the time to refine a morph. Like, just, just the basic reading of he seems to be dead in ball pythons. It's a race for race to see how many genes you can stack in it until you can't tell what's in it. Yeah, which just seems silly to me, you know, I don't know. I don't know. But that's just, you know, I used to see you a long time ago to where you would see, I'm thinking of reptile radio days where they would talk about, you know, trying to get the best example of the morph that you could or, you know, getting the nicest, you know, maybe high contrast emails and, you know, and the results that they would get would really be, would really be nice. I mean, you see sometimes some of these ball pythons when they're adults and they're just, I don't know, they're kind of ugly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What attracted me to the Marillia world was, I mean, when I started building my ball collection, I had to pay money. And that's about the people in Marillia. It's about being selective, you know. It's not just because you have something with Callo Acres. Like, you got a goal, you know, and there's a purpose behind it and lineage is important. And people want to see pictures of the parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. If you can provide all that. And, and I think that's, that's awesome. And that was, that's what got, you know, that's what I found. They're just seeming to find that camaraderie was, was a hard thing to do. Yeah. I mean, when I bought my first lesser platinum, you know, I could have, I could have bought a trio from a guy vending and Sacramento for the same price that I ended up purchasing my single mail for. And that one mail that I bought was way better looking than I had seen of any other lesser platinum. And the babies I've made from them have been absolutely smoking. And as I start breeding him into some of my adult females that I've raised, that my separation reduced spotted, I'm making lesser platinums that have almost no spots in their patterning. So I'm cleaning up those, those lesser, and I have pastels that I've made that, you know, at 3000 grams are still yellow. So I want to start taking those back into, into the snakes. And I mean, I, I only want to have to do each other. And, and I'd rather make the best looking lesser thing that I've seen than a 20 gene oatmeal ball that you can't tell what, what is going on in it. Yeah. I'm with you there spotted python, look like a jungle carpet python and you will be set. Done. There you go. I got, I got to start getting the dose of yellow injected in there somewhere. Anyway, um, Andy, what, what is your feeling on the reptile market currently? I know you kind of dabble in a, in a species that isn't, kind of is on the fringe and for Asia. But you're involved with with carpet python and really a market as well as the ball python market. So what's your current take on where we're at right now? Uh, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. I, I think our biggest problem that we have in the hobby is not necessarily quote unquote over saturation. Um, because there's, there's a lot of people buying animals man. I mean, be, be real. There's, you know, there's people buying all the time. You know, what, what one of the biggest problems I think is, you know, we have everyone trying to be the next warehouse breeder. And to get to know people in the hobby, become part of a community, you know, make some friends, you know, try to, you know, I mean, making friends is one of the biggest things. Um, try to be positive and try to try to, you know, you know, produce something for the community that's, that's helping in some sort of way. You know, and then, like, as you, you gain a following, then, you know, start worrying about how many questions you're going to be producing or what you're going to be producing. You know, I mean, start with a few here and there, like not everybody is going to have a clientele list to deal with right out of the gate. I mean, you can buy the two hottest snakes in the world and breed them together, but that doesn't necessarily mean the line is going to form to the right. You know, for maybe, because, you know, if nobody knows you or knows about your animals, you know, I mean, advertise, you know, where you want. But if you're advertising to 10 people, you know, I mean, that's, that's only 10 people that are going to be seeing the animal. I mean, then that's where you start seeing people drop their prices weekly or hourly or whatever they're doing with their sales. You know, it's, it's, it's sad to see somebody, nice animals, and then, you know, it's, and then getting a rush to try to sell. I mean, there's, there's being part of the poll world. I see a lot of people that are like, oh, yeah, I got to have a sale this weekend, you know, 50% off. I got to clear my racks out to make room for all these babies I got hatched in this year and this, and it's 500 animals long. Yeah, it's like Jesus Christ. Like, if you've got 500 animals for sale, still take a year off. Like I say, you got enough, you know, if you can't sell what you got, don't make more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's, that's one of those things. Yeah, I think, I think it doesn't matter what, what section of a hobby you pick. You know, there's, there's always going to be that guy that, you know, is making more than he can sell. You know, and I mean, yeah, I, I look at, I look at the ball pythons and, you know, I mean, I see people selling lots of platinum females for, you know, $75. And, you know, I sell my females for $250. Yeah. And I don't, I don't post ads. You know, I mean, I post pictures of stuff to make and somebody comes along and they send me a message and all I do, that's absolutely smoking. Do you have any more of those? Say, well, actually, as a matter of fact, yes, I do. Right. I'm just going to a little bit more for it, but, you know, you're going to be happy with what you get. And that's, that's the customer I want. I mean, I want, I want the picky customer. You know, I want the person that's willing to, to pay more and appreciate what they're getting. You know, and that's just be like, oh, I'll give you 20 bucks for that. It's like, oh, worth more than that to me. Yeah. I mean, if I get 250 for it, I'll move it up to the next size tub up and as soon as she's big enough to breed, I'll, I'll be making more babies. Right. Yeah. That's why I'm not really sitting on a few car moles and I'm like, okay, you guys can hang out and if you're here by breeding season, put your ashes to work. Yeah. Yeah. And then you guys get a proven breeder tag and your price goes, oh, anyway. So, what is your feeling because you're involved in the ball python? What's your feeling of options that are deeply online? Uh, the one of my, my buddies suck auctions. I'm, I'm really not a fan, not at all. These, these animals mean something to me. I've been an animal geek all my life. Yeah. My parents, my parents indulged my every animal whim with the exception of owning a lizard. Like that was, that was off limits. Uh, but everything else, I mean, if I wanted it, they were, they were, you know, if we could own it legally, like, let's do it. And, uh, so I, I, I treasure being able to own animals and they're, they're not DVD players to me and they're, they're not eBay items. You know, to, to me, an auctions only purpose is to, at least for the people bidding, is to win it for the least amount of money possible. Right. Um, I've, I've seen a lot of auctions, you know, the, the ones that I see people claim go for, you know, at retail or just above retail. Uh, you, you watch those auctions and there's like one or two people, they're always bidding on it. And the entire time they're, they're running the price up. And, you know, I mean, that someone, someone bids 125, they bid 200. That person bids 201, they bid 350. And then they're like, come on, are you guys going to let me steal this animal? Like somebody outbid me. Like, why do you want someone to outbid you? Like, aren't you trying to win it? Like, isn't that the point? Yeah, what are you doing? And why are you jumping the bid by a hundred and something dollars every time? Like, you know, there's, there's no limit. And they didn't dollar amounts here. Then that guy wins. And then the same animals back on the site next week. Yeah, the next week. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, you know, buy, buy her back out. Oh, okay. But here, here the buyer is bidding on it again, running, running the option up all over again. Saying, yeah, same dude. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, I mean, it's, I either see it as somebody's getting taken for, for a ride. Or I, I see it as the, the cheapening of animals. You know, I mean, if, if you saw people running public auctions on Facebook for puppies, you know, they'd be crying for blood, you know, you know, it's just, it's just us. And then Peter would be after those people in art. They can't, they can't look good for stuff like that. You know, I mean, and then I see people say, well, it's the only way I can move my animals. Well, then you made too many animals. You shouldn't, you shouldn't know it, not. You're just lazy. So yeah. I, I used to believe that, uh, I used to believe that your animals will sell themselves. And I think to a certain extent, that's, that is true. But you have to do the legwork to get people to know what you have. And about you. Yeah. Yeah. I know they don't let that out. Yeah. Yeah, they do. You know, and I, I meet people that find out that I have a collection of snakes and that I breed them and I sell them. And I sell them to pet stores on the west coast and then I sell them online. And they're just blown away and they're like, Oh, my God, like you make good money at it. I'm like, I paid to keep my collection going most of the time. You know, or, or at least pay to pay to put the money back in my collection. They're like, oh, it's so amazing, they're like, oh, so is that your day job? It's like, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha No, no, no, I worked 50 hours a week at another job and then come home and clean snakes shit all day long. That's what I do to relax and unwind. Yeah, this is my relaxing part. But I don't know, because from what I heard of, there used to be these auctions in Ohio of exotic animals, lions, tigers, things like that, and I've always, and I always heard of this, like, appalling thing. It just kind of struck me when you're talking about how everybody we up and on, and we did this with puppies, people used to protest and go absolutely ape shit over the fact that they were the exotic oddest creatures yet. So, now, now brings to make all teams and it's perfectly fine, but it's whatever, I don't know, to each their own, and you've never seen my animals on there, but Andy, what advice can you give somebody brand new to the hobby, just somebody just coming in? Oh, find what you love and work with that, and just preach to people how much you love it. I mean, maybe don't be a Jehovah's Witness and knock on their doors every weekend, but you've got to let people know how cool it is to you and why you dig it. And hopefully that excitement will transfer on to other people. I mean, but day job, if this is what you want to do, if you've got a day job, this is always fun. Now, if you're going to make it a living, you've got to pay rent every month. You've got to pay your power every month. You've got to pay, excuse me, you've got to pay rent every month. You've got to have trash services, you know, your phone bill. I mean, if you own a car, you've got to pay that shit, or they're going to boil down to like, "God, I've got to sell $3,000 in snakes this month, or I'm going to get kicked out of my house." That doesn't make your hobby fun in any way, shape, or form. And it's worth doing this. It's not just all fun and games. If you want to sell your animals, unless you're doing really well, I can't afford someone to run a website for me. And I hate computers. I'm not computer literate, but I've had to learn, and I'm not great at taking photos, but I've had to learn. And I mean, what I am good at is cleaning snakes, shit, and breeding snakes. I've gotten pretty decent at that, but to do all my own books, to file my tattoos for selling these animals, so I can be a law-abiding citizen. I mean, it's all work. It's none of it's easy. And if you have to do all that stuff for you, you better get good at doing taxes. It's not easy. Just pick what you love, work with that. If you really want to be a business, you're going to have to bust your ass to get to where you want. That one's going to hand it to you. But if you just want to enjoy the hobby, you can breed all you like. Just work with stuff you love and be prepared to keep it and feed it. If it's not going to sell, you're going to have to take care of it, or get a monitor or a blackhead. Just do that. And that's good advice. I remember one of my first reptile shows, there were some guys who were selling bearded dragons. And I didn't make a single sale all show, so I had to show him something. He goes, "Man, you got to pick a different reptile. None of these things you're going to sell." And I'm like, "Well, you do bearded dragons." He says, "Yeah, I really love Amazon tree pose, but nobody likes those things. So I do the bearded dragons." And I'm like, "Paw-able advice." That is terrible, so I like Andy's better. Andy, you had said earlier that you had busted your ass to get your animals pre-sold. What do you do to get that word out there? So being that forums are basically dead anymore, and nobody uses those, I share stuff on my Facebook page, my personal business page. I post in all the groups. I share stuff in earlier, etc. I show picture pictures of stuff in early pick of the week, to us antirezia addicts, the antirezia group over in Australia. I keep sharing my pictures everywhere. I comment on other people's stuff. I try to be stoked for what everybody else is doing. I just try to participate in the community at large. I try to be positive, and I try to be polite and friendly to everyone. I believe really firmly in treating people the way I want to be treated. Some people tell me I'm a dick, and that's true. I try not to be. I just come across that sometimes. Well, I know sometimes I'm with you. It's like me and Owen are always in this thing where it's like, "Do we comment on this? Do we not comment on this?" You know, there's certain things that you see that you're like, "Oh, I feel the pulse of my temple, like just hammering away." I think I just need to turn the computer off and turn around and walk away. That might be the best thing to do. Sometimes I find that I always try to think about the other side of things. I try to get a perspective. Even at my work, they call me devil's advocate guy. I think by arguing the other side, I strengthening what my side is, because now I've argued their side. It helps me understand my side better. Sometimes I see things that happen. I just shake my head sometimes. I'm a nobody. I'm not the end all be all when it comes to what things are in the reptile world. I don't know. Every once in a while, I get fired up and I have to put my two cents in, or I'll tell Owen to unleash him on the pick of the week. I bring up an example, Andy, and I'll be curious on how you would approach this. I don't know if you guys caught this. Owen, you probably watch pick of the week more than I do. People think that it's me, but it's really Owen. There was a guy that posted up a picture of his chondro. It was in a cage that looked like a crate with blocks on the bottom of the cage. It was made out of one by six pallet material. I saw that picture. Well, here's my thoughts. First thought that came to mind was, "Well, my first reaction would be this. This has to be B-HOP trolling something, or this must be a fake one." This has to be bullshit. This can't be legit. And then, I think, well, maybe this person doesn't have a clue, which would be my first problem with people when it comes to auctions and when it comes to just the reptile market in general, even in the show, is that people are making purchases on whims, and they really don't. They really don't understand how to take care of this animal, and they try to figure it out after the fact. Which is the worst thing you could do. I think maybe part of that has to do with Facebook. Maybe it doesn't. I don't know. It could be maybe a generational thing, but it just seems like back in the day that people would come to a forum and they would be more research oriented to try to figure out. Because the information was there. >> You would look like some books, or something. >> Good look. >> Yeah. >> Like I said, I don't like computers. >> Right, right, right, right. Well, yeah, I mean books are another huge resource that I don't know. It just seems like people don't pay attention to them as much, but that's a whole nother thing. >> I don't know. I just kind of -- and then I'm thinking, well, is this guy from another country where maybe they don't have a reptile basics that they can -- you know what I mean? So it's kind of like, well, you have to kind of do with what you have to kind of do with. I mean, I don't know. If you look maybe back in the early days of keeping snakes in the U.S., you probably did the same kind of shit. You know? I don't know. I kind of mixed feelings. It's kind of like, okay, here's somebody new. Do you take the time to explain to them or do you just berate them and just say you're flipping idiot and you shouldn't keep snakes and get the hell off of here. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. What do you guys think? >> So my approach that I try to do with everybody is I usually try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt that they're trying to learn. You know, they ask the question in sincerity, hoping to do better. And I typically will try to help as honestly as I can while maybe rubbing my temple on the other side of the screen. I will try to help that person and healthy that they'll be going down some sort of a right path. If after one or two times of trying to help, I start to realize that this person is beyond help. I mean, they don't even know how to tie their shoes. They don't should be owning an animal. Then I try to just wash my hands of it and leave it alone. Sometimes it depends on just how bad of it is having. I try not to unload to both barrels on people. But, you know, sometimes, you know, the merely world's not as bad. At least, you know, I seem to think that the people that ask questions there are truly looking to get help. You know, and maybe bashing them isn't the best first step because they're not going to want to ask for help again. Granted, maybe they should try helping themselves a little bit more first. But, you know, I'll try to help them. I mean, there's people in the ball python world that, I mean, they ask for help. And then, you know, they give you some of the most innocent replies ever. And it's like, you know, I'm sorry, I'm done. I got to walk away. Like, I'm either going to call you the most retarded person on the planet. And you shouldn't even to go outside of your house. You're a dangerous person around you. How have you lived in long? Yeah, so I, you know, I try not to be people. But, you know, I mean, sometimes after a few tries, it's like, oh, you're beyond help. And if you don't leave me alone, you're really not going to like the reply that you get from me. Yeah, but sometimes you make the mistake of trying to help the wrong person. And then they just keep messaging you. And, yeah, you wish they'd go away. But you just can't get them to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, personally, I would try to help everybody, you know, and then hope that, you know, they, hopefully they accept the help. No, take advantage of the help. Well, yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, if you ask for it, you know, listen to it. Yeah, you know, don't, don't, don't ask what's the best way to do this or how should I do that or what's going on here and then be like, no, I think you're wrong. Oh, okay. All right. So apparently, apparently you know more about incubating temperatures for that species and, you know, you don't even own an incubator. So you go ahead and you figure it out, buddy. You tell me what I'm doing wrong. Yeah, there was tags and posts where they somebody has a question. They tag a bunch of people who may have been well known for that species, but then the answers that they get are from people who are not the people that they tagged. And then when one of the people, I say, like, I ask a question, I go, you, Eric, make button in there and a bunch of other people respond and then make mutton response, but then the one right after Nick mutton is like, he's wrong. I'm like, wait a minute. His name's up there for a reason. So, yeah, it's there for a reason. You know, the guy wrote the book on what I'm asking, right? Please be quiet. Please let him talk. It's like, you know, it's that that's some of the things that I keyboard cowboys are everywhere. And I do understand sometimes emotions run high and you can, you can get involved in something quickly on a computer and it can spiral out of control, but, you know, not everybody is an expert just because they have one and it's still alive. Yeah, do more. Yeah. Well, I think what was it. I can't remember what it was. It was a couple weeks ago. It was, and I think we might have talked about it at the beginning of last show, but I was kind of like juggling a thousand things, not to mention the tornado that came through. Yeah, but there was a, what was it? What was the post that's got put up? Why the nail and the morality of golf and what was that? It was for auctions. Was that the option? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, my favorite comment to those in pile of threads still is, I don't have a name like Jason Bailin, so I have to charge less. Well, not to go down that road, but well, there was two sort of threads going on. There was one that was in. Carpet Python classifieds. Yeah, there was one that was there. One of them was on Scott's wall. Yeah. Was on Scott's wall. So, the one on the Carpet Python classifieds, Zach was really like, he was, he was more into that one where I was more into the one on Scott's wall. And the one person is going back and forth with Zach, and he then proceeds to say that he doesn't even have Carpet Python. So, I'm like, hold on a second. Why are you even going away? That would be one of those incidences where I'm like, well, do I get in here and say, well, why are you even talking about this? Like, I mean, people are entitled to opinions, I guess, but like, if you don't have a dog in the race, like, how can you make a comment about it? So, like, if somebody comes on and they ask a question, like, how do you breed children's pythons? And I go on and I say, well, this is what I would do. And then Andy, you come on and you say, well, no, Eric, you're wrong. This is what you do. It should be like, I should say, okay, you know what, well, Andy's bred these before, and he's actually hatched these before. So, you should listen to him. Oh, my goodness, I just want to bang my head against the wall. You know, and it's like, if I go to a motorcycle dealership and start talking about riding, but I've never ridden a motorcycle. So, I like them. They look cool, but I've never done it. So, I should know not to talk about it. And I think it just goes to play back what you said earlier, Andy, and that's why I asked that question that we sort of went off on this tangent bout was, you know, I think that people just think that they're going to breed these snakes. They don't put any thought behind it. There's just like, I'm just going to, I think they think like, especially with like, now we're talking carpet pythons, but I'm sure children's pythons would fall into the same thing. I mean, you have a limited amount of people that are going to buy those snakes every year, unless you try to grow that group. You know, I mean, there's only so many people that are going to buy, even with high end carpet pythons. I mean, there's not a lot of people in the US that are going to say, all right, yeah, here's an extra $10,000, I'm going to go buy a couple of these projects. Most of the people that are trying to sell that are the people that would buy it and why would I buy it if I could make it, you know what I mean. I don't know, it's just, it's kind of a funny thing to where, unless you grow that audience, and I guess that has to do with, you know, going out and posting on other forums and other group pages and, you know, get to know people and help them with questions. Go into shows, you know, I mean, yeah, when I'm at a show and people ask me what I work with. Yeah, I mean, I tell them that I work with ball pythons and carpets, but, I mean, right, the second, one of my, one of my favorite things that I'm working with is the Interezia pythons, and I will talk those things up to anybody who wants to have a conversation about them. Now, I got pictures on my phone. I got a ton of pictures on my phone. You want to look at pictures? Let's look at pictures of Interezia. I mean, it's, you know, you just, while you're there, make friends. I mean, I wish I had, I wish I had Howard's ability of remembering names, Jesus Christ. We're a Pomona, people keep walking up to the table and Howard's like, "How are you?" I mean, "How are you doing, Bob?" I'm like, "Who the fuck is Bob?" He was here three minutes and I'm like, "I remember his face. I remember his face. I can't remember the guy's name." But, yeah, you know, I mean, you just make that connection with people and talk to them, you know, and that's worth, it's worth it's weight and gold, you know, and I've gotten a lot of snakes. I mean, I'll use Todd Dyer as an example. Yeah. I've gotten a lot of stuff of Todd, and one of the reasons why I've gotten a lot of snakes off of Todd was when I hit him up looking to buy animals, he took the time to talk to me and answer my questions and just, you know, be a person that would take the time to deal with me. And that's huge, man. I mean, if you can take, you know, 40 minutes out of your day or even 30 minutes out of your day when someone's got some questions to answer them, I mean, you know, that makes the difference to people. I mean, I got breeders that I go back to religiously because they're willing to give me that time of day to help me out. And, you know, there's other people that, you know, very big names that I have, I have voicemails on their phone, and I have less than emails and text messages. And I mean, one of them, it's been like three years, he still hasn't returned a message, you know, and then I see, you know, he's got a list of animals and so he's like, God damn it, is there anybody out there? You know, why isn't anyone buying? And it's like, well, shit, maybe if you return phone calls someone would buy your shit from you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think, I don't know, when I'm work, I work a 70 hour week job on top of the show, on top of breeding snakes of my own. And, you know, I could probably be better at answering emails, but I try to answer them, you know, at least within a day. Yeah. Now, usually, if it's taken me 24 hours to get back to somebody, my message is leading with, I'm really sorry, it's taken me 24 hours to get back to you. And it's been really slammed, you know, hopefully they gave me all the pertinent information of what they wanted to know in the original message. Right. You know, my least favorite message I get from people is, do you have an availability list? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you got taken. You have an availability list, you can send me. It's like, God, what do you like? Right. I don't know. I just want to see a list. Like, all right. Well, this is what I work with. Like, what turns you on? Like, I mean, what do you like out of that? What's like, ooh, like, I gotta own that. I don't know. I was just looking to see what you had. All right. Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. I'm looking for someone who knows what they want. And if you don't know what you want, I probably don't have something for you. Right. You're going to be like, ah, you're too expensive. And I'll be like, ah, well, sorry. Right. Both the guys at the WebTall shows were like, I'm stuck between your carpet fights on that. You threw me Burmese Python and that other guy's fly River Turtle. And I'm like, wait a minute. Yeah. Right. Life is between these objects are ridiculous. And that's the kind of person who has, like, you're priceless. It's like, that's why I'm like, go to the website. It's going to be priceless. If you're people, people more than like, contact me. They have baby numbers and they have, I want this one. And I'm like, there you go. And now I can talk to you. So, yeah, that's kind of, yeah, I'm with you though, Andy, as far as, um, you know, the whole, I'm, I'm loyal to a fault. But at the same time, I'm the type of person that, you know, if I do business with you and I feel the experience was good, I'm going to continue to do business with you. And, you know, just how it goes. Yeah. And I love how you were talking about Howard a little bit ago, because one of the first, one of the first times I ever met him. I was walking on a reptile show and he gave me a balloon. Like, he's like, he's a balloon. He's walking by, reading Red's help, breeder's table. And I'm like, what the hell? So, he was in that freaking canister. And he was still in the balloons at this character ratio. And he was handing them to every single person. And it's like, all right. But people stayed and talking to them because he was filling up balloons and it's smart. Shit going back there. So, yeah. And it's a great icebreaker. You look like you need a balloon. What? And then I had to come over to talk to him. So, yeah. Again, he and I had chatted online on Facebook and then I was going down to Pomona to go to the show to hang out with Todd down there. And I saw he had posted that he was going to be going to the show and was looking for a bunk mate for the weekend. And he and I ended up splitting a room for the weekend. I mean, that's one of the greatest weekends I've had in a long time, dude. So hilarious. And then after hanging out with him for the weekend, it's like, all right. Well, now I need a Howard writing jungle here sometime soon. Like, yeah, I don't have one of those in my collection. Like, now we're going to have to rectify that. Yeah. Yeah. Howard was somebody that had Howard send me a girl. Oh, my God. She's smoking. You know, everything I could ask for. Yeah. Yeah. He's the, he would be one of those guys that that I was talking about in my post that, you know, here's a guy that, you know, he kind of focused on this one thing. And the results, you know, he, there was a couple years where I, you know, I don't know. I kind of got the feeling from him that he kind of felt like, you know, he wasn't produced it. Like, he knew what was going to be being produced in his collection, but it's not like he could show anybody that, you know, like, I don't know when we went to his place for carpet fest. He would be showing us that it's like, for a long time, I knew him for his coastals, but like, he seemed excited, most excited about his jungle. So he's like, Oh, I got this one. I got this one. And this is going to go and look at this one and blah, blah, blah, and, you know, talking about it. And, you know, he kind of stuck with it. And I mean, the jungles that he's producing at this point are just killer, you know, and it was nice. And that's the, that's the kind of thing. Like, he's not just putting jungles together just to put them together. And, you know, he's got, he's got some in goals in mind with those things. Yeah. And you could tell, you know, and, and that's what used to be, at least in my experience, like, you take Morelia Python's form and, you know, I would just go there and I would be googling over these people's collections and saying, Oh, my God. I have to have a snake from this one and that one. And it's like, there would be a specific pairing that was, it was happening and you had to get in on that pairing because then they never happened again. You know, it's just like totally. No, and that's, that's, that's something that, you know, I kind of, I kind of enjoy a lot about the snake world. You know, when people do select pairing, you know, I mean, they, they maybe want to keep those snakes for 40 years, but, you know, they're only going to breed them five times, you know, six times. It's not like you're going to be able to get your hands on those babies every single year. And I mean, that sort of stuff to me makes them special. You know, I mean, if you, you know, if you're not going to be able to get your hands on the babies again, you know, I mean, that, that creates, I mean, that ends up creating a market for your customers later on because if you're never going to pair those animals again or only once or twice, like, you know, eventually you're, you're the people who bought from you will be able to, to pair those animals. And they'll be demand for offspring from them because it's, you know, it's a traceable line and. Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Great example of every day. Yeah. Oh, yeah, we went with what John did with a gamma jack. That's exactly what I think about with that. That's all gamma is that you stop breeding them and then now you see gamma jags pop up with other people's collections and, you know, people are breeding them. Yeah, I mean, that guy, his whole thing was he got the best of the best and, you know, he was very selective and what he put together and the results, you know, he's very consistent with his results where at the same time you would see some people. And it just seemed that they didn't have the same results in the end. And I've often heard that after, like, people that would have a gamma line diamond jungle jag, we'd go and breed it with something and they would kind of get, you know, shitty results. It wouldn't, it wouldn't carry over, but I would often wonder, well, what did they put it with? You know, I mean, yeah. Was it anything or was it, you know, another stellar animal? Right, you know, because if you get back when you put in. Yeah, because he kept back animals from the same clutch and bread it to, you know, other tie, you know, really nice looking jungles or diamond jungles or whatever. And the results stay consistent, but you can't just like, oh, well, it's not again, I hate to keep going back to the ball python world, but it's not like I'm trying to make a bumblebee so I just need to get a pastel and a spider. Put them together and bumblebees. But at the same token, I mean, you know, you take a, you take a, what I would call like a seagrade pastel, something that's already starting to brown out before it hits 300 grams. And, you know, you raise that up and you breed it to a low white spider and you make these, you know, brown pastel spider, bumblebee looking things like, I mean, do you really want to put your name on that and put it out there for sale? Like, is that the bumblebee want to hold back in your collection to breed and further your projects along or, you know, do you want to spend a little extra by a nice bright yellow pastel and, you know, a nice high contrast spider that's real bright and it's coloration and then breed those together and keep, you know, the best looking bumblebee. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's, go ahead, I'm sorry. No, I was just going to say, I've seen, I've seen, you know, bees that, you know, look like a turd by 700 grams and I've seen bees that, you know, would almost fool you as they're getting into the 1500 range where you're like, God, is that actually a little something else going on in it? Like, that's really clean. Right. Yeah, you know who sticks out to me and as far as that world is. And if I were to ever buy a ball python, like another one, there's very select people who I would get it from, but he's from Aussie from Aussie Boyd's. I mean, that guy seems like he has the same kind of thing going on. As far as he's very selective and he makes some gorgeous looking stuff. Yeah, it's crazy, you know, and even like non, do a double take where they, you know, it's funny. You talk to them like when you're talking to them one on one and they're like, yeah, that's pretty cool. You know, but, you're like, no, man, that's not cool. Whatever, just another ball python, but you know, King Cobra food. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Aussie Aussie definitely makes some nice stuff over there. And he is one of those guys that has a goal and you look at his orange dream stuff and where he's taking it. I mean, you know, they're, they're, they're stellar animals. Meanwhile, you look at some of the orange dream stuff that other people are working with and you're like, really? It's orange dream, huh? Yeah. Yeah. That looks like a slightly more attractive ugly normal than the way you've seen. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, my one question would be like, okay, so you're at Owen's going to do his, his close out questions in a minute, but my one question would be, what is the thing about. So I'm a guy. I come up to the table. I'm excited about antiresia, you know, children's pythons, you know, a spot of pythons, whatever, what would be the conversation that you would have? What excites you about these guys? What is it that, that, that, you know, that you do have all these pictures of the different things in your phone and, you know, what keeps you out about them? So it's pretty much everything to me about them. I mean, I'm just as geeked out about them as I am about any other species I keep. I mean, I love their colors and patterns. I mean, each one is special to me. I look at it. I look at each one and I see individual things. I see a spot on one and a spot on another one, and I'm like, I can do some shit with those spots. And so, I mean, this color and pattern, they're, they're even in maintenance. You know, they're, they're a small manageable size. They're going to be inexpensive to feed. They're, they're, they're awesome little attitudes. I mean, they kind of get a bad rap for, for being quote unquote aggressive, but they're, they, they just like food. They like food and your fingers are warm and they happen to be about the same size as what they like to eat. So, you know, I mean, they, they give it a shot from time to time. And I mean, you know, I, I actually like that. I like the fact that they get a little spunk to them. And I mean, not all of them do. I have ones that are, you know, have never bitten. And then I have other ones that, well, you know, have, they've never failed the bite. They've never missed. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, you know, something that, something that, you know, your, your kids can actually handle. Because, I mean, that's, that's something that I've noticed with ball pythons. You know, a lot of people say they're a great starter snake. They're shy. Anterica are not a shy snake. You know, I mean, I wouldn't recommend holding it every day for, you know, three and a half hours and then wondering why it's getting defensive. But, you know, I mean, your kid can pull it out and juggle it around for 30, 40 minutes. And, you know, you're not going to totally stress the animal out. You know, put it back and leave it alone for the week. It, it's not going to shut down and quit feeding for eight and a half months on you. And then you're going to be calling me every other night wanting to know why this snake hasn't eaten yet. You know, and then you send me a picture of it, you know, between two giant stereo speakers and a glass cage and go over the living room. And a high traffic area with a disco ball hanging over the top and you've got like 40 people partying in the living room. I don't know why it's not eating. I'm a little stressed out looking at that picture. It might have something to do with it. Yeah. You know, I mean, there's, there's such a cool, I mean, from, from getting my first one to picking up my, my entries. I was a master day yesterday afternoon. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm getting out about every one of them. I was so excited to hatch babies this year. And I mean, I look forward to a little bit of a challenge getting them to start eating. But I mean, you know, seeing, seeing a snake that's, you know, five inches long, you know, and a smaller diameter than a pencil around, you know, hatch out of an egg and become a savage little feeder. I don't want to hit anything warm that when the tub opens, I know, no better gratifying feeling. You know, I love raising them up and watching them grow. And I, I think they would, I think they'd make an awesome bivariate animal, to be honest. If I had more room and, and I could, I could do it. I would, I would totally set up a few vibes to put them in and keep them that way. And I think you'd probably observe even more than like them just wedging themselves into the, the crack on the topic page, waiting for me to open it and them to fall on the substrate. And then I often mouse. They were trying to, trying to eat a bat. It just didn't work out for them. Yeah. Before that. Well, that's cool. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, no, I was going to say, what do you think about, there's quite a, quite a few of the morphs that are in Australia. Some of them have made their way to the states and I'm sure somehow some way they'll make it, most of them will make it here, if not all of them. Do you think that will change? Yeah, they'll eventually pop up randomly in a UK collection somewhere. They plan their way. Exactly. They were field collected by a couple of Germans in Germany. Yeah. I think the morphs are cool looking. I mean, you know, as much as I kind of hate seeing what morphs do to any, you know, part of the hobby. You know, as soon as morphs start to inject their way in, people start to chase the animal a little bit more because they start to see that there's, you know, maybe some money to be made for your time and, you know, that's when you start seeing maybe some people getting into it for the wrong reasons. You know, you know, starting to see people get more passionate in their arguments. Yeah. And I start to, I think that's where the drama starts coming in is when you start getting morphs into an animal or into a species. That being said, I'd be a total fucking liar to do that. I would not be one of the first people rushing out to buy a pair of marbled or a pair of painted by rhinos. Thank you. I would be one of the first ones in line. I mean, I'll fuck you guys back off. Right here, mine. I'm here. Name your price. Name your price. I will go sell my boat hole in the street corner if I got to. Those guys over there, they just like carpets, you know, let them have their carpets. This is all me. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I think it would be a huge boost to enter easier once they finally start popping up over here. I'm a little into what it'll do, but at the same time, I mean, it's this bound to happen. I mean, whether, whether, you know, people like Nick and Justin and, you know, myself and Brandon Young and those who are working with with these snakes. You know, start seeing, you know, random selective things that we're producing and start being able to line breed stuff. And that starts to start to be the trend. You know, I mean, you're producing, you know, poly, polygenic morphs, you know, kind of like tigers. Sure. Yeah, you start, you know, whether it be something like that or we actually start popping up with more things other than just the black eyes. And the quote unquote reds, which are, I'm not 100% on how they're developed, but in my opinion, I believe they're just the line bred animals. As soon as that stuff starts becoming more prevalent, they'll start to become more popular. And, you know, it's just not always a bad thing. Sure. It'll eventually, hopefully, you know, not become terrible, you know, but they'll slowly bring drama in the world. Yeah. What do you, are there, what are the morphs that are in the States currently? Um, I mean, there's rumors of stuff that's around that's not around. I haven't actually seen pictures or anything. I've just heard tales. There's the black eyes, which I'm not exactly sure how they work. I'm not sure if it's an incomplete dominant or a recessive. Justin's been working on them. And there's, there's a red for the children. There are, I mean, I've seen some children that are practically patternless. Um, I'm not sure if they have, like, some granite maculose mixed in there somewhere. Um, or if, if it's just selectively bred. Some of them, the pattern does disappear on quite a bit. And, you know, somebody's been line breeding that. They may just be making a form of patternless that way. Um, I can't remember who it was. It was posted in USA and Teresa at the other day. They're working on, uh, on some, some striped, uh, spotted. And, uh, those, those got me excited. Um, I, I, I dig stripes. Like there's no tomorrow. I'm a totally great sucker. Um, you know, I, you know, I saw, I saw some pictures of tigers and I was like, ah, but done, done deal. I'm getting those. That's, no way I'm, I'm not getting that. Um, ah, now it wasn't in the States. Sorry, my bad. It's Benjamin Cornford is in Oz. He's, where are we? Oh, nope, I'm sorry. It is in the States. Ryan Young. Uh, he's got some, some, uh, stripes, spotted. Yeah, I saw that. It's a really nice looking animal. And then there's the granite spotted. Um, and I see people share patternless, you know, quote unquote, patternless, uh, maculamas, um, from my understanding that Kim Bell told me. Uh, that's, that's who I got my, my, uh, granites from, is that there are more heavenly, heavenly, heavenly, patterned, uh, granites. And then there are granites that are practically patternless. And the ones that are pretty much patternless are the, uh, selective bread, quote unquote, patternless granites. Or, sorry, patternless spotted. Um, yeah. From my understanding, it's not a separate mutation. Uh, it's just being lined bread, which, um, yeah, we, we have, we have a, uh, heavily spotted male and, uh, male and a female that are practically patternless. And, uh, we're, um, um, I'm putting both patternless animals together next year. And this comes of that. I'm hoping to, uh, continue that trade on. I mean, if I make a busy patterned animal or we see one pop up from somebody else that's working on granites, I'll probably snag a female for my busy patterned male. So, you know, we can go down both, both avenues with it. Um, but yeah, I mean, the, uh, the, the granites, especially the ones with little pattern or smoke. And I mean, the ones we have are like silver and, uh, the, the iridescence on them is just, just killer. I love those things. Right. That's awesome. Yeah. That would probably be the next ones that I, uh, pick up out of these. I'd like to get some spotted, uh, some spotted by tons for sure. So we may be talking. That means, yeah. So, yeah. All right. I think those guys. All right. So Owen, the final questions. All right. So Andy, if you own any reptile without any limitations, what would it be and why? Cool. Uh, uh, well, I mean, it may not be the smartest, uh, maneuver in the world. My absolute favorite, uh, species are the cobras. And I have no real good reason for it other than they have woods and the hoods are bad ass. That's, that's all I have. I mean, I've, I have been enamored with cobras since I was a kid. Um, I, I've just always thought they were the coolest thing in the world. And, you know, I mean, being here in California, like the, the, the laws are prohibitive. I'll, I'll never be able to work with something like that here. Um, but I mean, I, I, I would totally do it in a heartbeat. Yeah. I mean, that's the, the, the, the risk could be worth it, in my opinion. Anyways, you have a favorite cobras species. Uh, yeah. Uh, either. It's, it's, it's, it's. Yeah. Yeah. Those, those are my favorites. Uh, I like the Indian cobras. Um, I mean, king cobras are, are awesome. I probably wouldn't necessarily go down that road. I don't necessarily need a snake that's like 17 feet long and highly deadly. Yeah. That's, that's, that's maybe pushing the roulette wheel a little bit harder than I want to go. Okay. All right. So if you could go herping at any place on the planet, where would it be? And what would you go looking for? Uh, I think my dream trip, like if I could go and do anything, um, it would either be, it would be, it'd be a close toss-up between either going to India and actually getting to see a cobra in the wild. Or, uh, the, the very close second, uh, would be going to Australia and herping for brettles. No. You know, of the Python, of the Python species, that's my, that's my hands down favorite. Yeah. Diamonds run a close second, but, uh, I've been a namardrew brettles for forever. Uh, I saw a picture of one in the book when I was in high school. And I remember thinking, God, if I ever, you know, get over this bullshit fear of snakes, like, that red snake right there, like, I would own that. That's, that's hot. And then I remember, like, when I first decided that snakes were cool, started looking into prices of brettles, and so apparently I'm never going to own one of those. Yeah. And then they came down in the world of reality, and, you know, I went from, like, God, I'll never be able to own one of those, like, ah, so I got, like, five in the house, like, um, I'm, I'm pretty well set. Yeah. I love that. When you're, like, that'll, I'll never be able to get this in my collection. And then, like, a couple of years later, you're, like, I got four, so. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So awesome. All right. So one last thing, Andy, if somebody wanted to get in touch with you, or they want to start talking about antiregia, or they want to get on your one of your list, how would they go about doing that? So, you can find me a pet at sunset on Facebook. I have a business page there. Um, you can shoot me messages. I'm, I'm checking in on it all the time. Uh, usually something doesn't get by me for more than a couple hours on there. Um, you can, uh, you can try to send me a personal message on Facebook. Uh, my privacy settings might block you if you're not a friend. Um, apparently it, it seems to choose itself. I'm not sure how it works. Uh, every once in a while I go to the other messages folder. Yeah. I mean, some, some people, not friends with it, comes through media with you. Other people, I go to the other messages and I'm like, "Oh, crap. I feel bad. I haven't responded to that person." Um, but, uh, people can try there. Um, face the, the, the business page on Facebook's one of the better ways. Uh, you can find me on Instagram. Um, you can find me on Google Plus. Um, I'm on there as well. So that, that sends the email to me directly. Um, you can comment on anything that I have on there. You can, you know, I don't know, plus one, like whatever, whatever Google Plus does for their, their liking system. Um, I mean, all, all that stuff I get is instantaneous emails. So, you know, I mean, that, that's probably a fast way of hitting me no matter what. And you find me on Google Plus and that, that goes straight to my phone. Um, I'll be at the Sacramento reptile show this year. Um, if you want to talk to me in person, uh, my partner James Royal and I will be down there. Um, we will have some of our own animals on the table. And we will be hanging out with the legendary Todd Dyer and the infamous Howard Reading, uh, at the show. So, you can come and chat snakes with those two awesome guys as well. Um, and then I will be down and put on it again in January, uh, hanging out down there. And one, if not both, uh, James and I will probably be at the, uh, North Bay Herp Show, um, uh, towards the end of July here, uh, and it's in Santa Rosa. Uh, we won't be vending, but, you know, at least one of us will be down there roaming around trying to see if, you know, there's something that, you know, can't live without, you know, some other, you know, intrusion master die cross. Yep. Always got a hunt. I mean, always got to go. So, all right, very cool. So I think that's all we got, Eric, do we have anything else? He's gone. He's dead, apparently. No, I'm still here. I can't see him. Yeah, I'm still here. Yeah. Just a button on my headset. Sometimes I mean myself. Yeah. Uh, no, thanks for coming on any, uh, you can come home. We could get the, uh, we're about to reach it. And, uh, I hope people get some excitement going about it. Uh, uh, perfect guy to contact if they don't want to get into, uh, the species. So. I appreciate you guys having me on, man. It's, it's, you know, I, I listened to the show every week. At room, ages, and I, I, I get geeked out listening to everyone try to share their knowledge and I was, I was really honored when you sent me the message. It meant a lot. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I pleasure. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Appreciate it. Yeah. Have a good night, guys. You too. All right. All right. So, uh, yeah. So you're getting some anti-regio and or what? No, sorry. Not in the battle plan. No, no, no, no. Okay. I'm going to get me, it's harder to get me to want something that I've already had because I've already have. If I don't have them anymore because I do want them to be more. So, uh, I got you. You're going to get into the region again on? I had those. Didn't work out well. Never again. So it was. They didn't breed. Well, I had, I had 2.2. I had normal spot as I said, Cape York spotted. And then I had two granite spotted and nothing bred. No one bred. Nothing happened. Damn it. Shut up. Yeah. Cape York's man. That's nice. Damn. Yeah. We were at Hamburg. We were at Hamburg. And if I had money, you know, it wasn't in Snake that, um, there was a guy that was across from Eric. Or after you bought to read it. Well, remember, they were already paid for. So that's different. So quiet. All right. Yeah, that's, that's totally different. And the one I didn't buy. But anyway, that's. True. That's right. Oh my God. You'll be paid for one. Yeah. And what's a little reach 50 bucks. You know? I mean, nobody wants normals. Eric, Eric is a recent previous dream. I want a normal, a normal male retake. Really? Yeah. Where have you been all my life? Well, you know, that's funny because when I was, when I was interested in getting it, I was kind of like, okay. So I reached out to a couple of people. Well, actually, I was asking questions to a couple of people and I'm like, well, who breeds normals? Nobody. No one's like, okay. Okay. All right. Let's see if I can approach this a different way. And then I sort of, it's probably why I got the one for nothing because who, you know, I would definitely do that. You know, if you have a normal, think about it. If you have normals from breed and whatever to whatever, you'd be like, okay, take this, take this. This is yours too. Have a good day. Get the hell out of here. Yeah. The blackhead. I mean, like, yeah, yeah. I don't know if a blackhead could, maybe a dope black. An adult blackhead? Yeah, you take them. Oh, no. My old blackhead. Anyway. Yeah. No, I was just going to say when we were there, we were by Eric Kohler and Jamie was right there. Jamie. Cross from his table. There was a guy. He was, but he had a bunch of different antiresias stuff. And some of it was adults and. Oh, John. Who was it? John. I know. You do? Oh, okay. Well, there you go. I know. Let's go. You know him. Yeah. But did I know that you know that I know him now? I'm so confused. You. Shut up. Yeah. I know John. John's the easy guy who makes the sin containers for incubators. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, he's very big into the monitor things. But now he's kind of like he's kind of branched. He's got a few albino dar ones. He's kind of branching out into the answer. He's here for a little bit. So I know he's got a bunch of adults and babies and stuff. He's cooking up. I don't know what he's doing with it, but yeah. Yeah. That was, they had some, definitely some nice stuff. So yeah, if I would've had the money, that would've been something that I definitely would've jumped on right away. It's always a serious ladder snake money around. Why is that? I'm telling you, you know, if I would put more effort into selling snakes, maybe I would be able to keep the circle go. And me both. Like somebody just bought one of the males that I produced in 2013. Like, and I'm like, oh, yeah, he is still here. So it's like, oh, my God. If he was out, I'm like, yeah, he is. They're like, okay. And they just paid me for him. And I'm like, oh, all right. Well, I guess I'll get a box. I'm like, I gotta figure out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I'm like, oh, crap. I just sold something. It's like, you know, it's one of those things. So, yeah, and I have to get off my butt and take pictures of these babies. Cause like the tigers and all that stuff are baby eating like free time since you sold them. So. No, cool. Yeah. My tigers. Hopefully, you know, I've approached. I'm actually this the approach that I've learned to take for baby carpets. The first two feedings, I'm going live. I'm not messing with frozen at all. I'm not. You know, now that I can, you know, I, I thought about just asking Matt if, if like a lot of times he gets a shipment every week and then I just, you know, kind of tack on to that. And, you know, maybe you should come to my house or whatever the case may be. But I don't get to be where Matt is. Well, they get to, they get, they just, they eat quicker. I don't know. Yeah. Just, there's no nonsense. It's just like you throw it in. Boom. It's date. Yeah. And I mean, it's easy to get them switched over. Well, you remember last year with me and the bruddles, how they would ever, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were fighting to the nail. And then I threw live hoppers in there and they all took and it's like, well, all right. Fuck you guys. So it's like, and that, that I didn't understand. They're more afraid of a dead hopper laying there than a live hopper moving around. So, bruddles might just be stupid. I don't know. So, you know what, it's live is definitely something that I think works a lot and I've seen it with a lot of people. But what, what people mean to understand is that these are not baby retakes. So, they cannot take a live adult mouse. Now, when we say hoppers for a baby carpet python, we're really needing a baby that kind of maybe just has its eyes open. So, obviously, gauge the size of the mouse before you end up with a baby carpet. I know because I went over to a friend's house who had just touched his first clutch of baby carpet pythons and he had a baby jack that had just shed in with what I would call it. What I would call a just weaned adult mouse. And it's like, that is never going to eat that. The mouse might eat the carpet python, but that, that carbon is never going to be able to swallow that. That's way too freaking big. So, you know, my approach. Yeah, my approach has been to use, I would say, large fuzzies. Yeah. Yeah, that way I can leave it in overnight. And I don't have to worry about it. I do that about two times. Once they've done that twice, I find that carpets are then turned on to food. And what I'll do is the next time I go to feed them, I'll try. I'll wait actually two weeks because where I was feeding them one week. So it kind of like they're in the mood for food, they're in that mode. And then I just give them a frozen thaw and hopper. Boom, they take it right away. I haven't had any issues, but. I'll probably be doing the same thing because I'm going to start because the caramel jags and caramel tiger jags are shedding now. There's no feed files for them, but the August hamper show is coming up. So if by August anybody who's not eating, I'm going to get them alive fuzzies so we can try to get a jump on this and try to, you know, get everybody feeding as soon as possible. Yeah, because tits right around the corner. Timley's floating around the corner. I need to bring the tinley. Oh, I'm going to look at the asshole next to you. Give them a look at my old final keeper jag. I have total. So yeah, it's like, no, that is not the flag. I have Dominican Red Mountain Bowl. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no. We need to do that, plus we need to get all the new graphics. The August show. I can't wait to unveil all the new road shit. So yeah, yeah. It's cool to see for sure. There's lights, fireworks, pyrotechnics. Yeah, right. Spare no expense. Yeah. So on Netflix, we have John Batak play from Moralia Trophy Club. We talked about him a little bit earlier in the show. We're going to be touching base with Tim and seeing what we're going to be talking selective breeding with him in particular because he recently did an article in reptiles. Magazine about selective breeding. And would be cool to hear his thoughts on his approach. And maybe some tips that he could give somebody that he wants to start a breeding project and wants to know how to go about it. And he would definitely be somebody that you would want to talk to. Also, at some point in the conversation, we'll be talking about cindros. He is a big carpondro guy. Let's see where he's at with his carpondros and such. I don't know. I would keep one as a pet, but I don't know for some reason they don't. I've seen some that are kind of crazy looking and some that I would say, yeah, that would be cool to have, but I could never see myself breeding them. You know, Bill was trying to show us pictures of his on a private message and I'm like, Bill, you're, you're actually sending messages to the two very wrong people on this one. I mean, normally I'm just the one that's like, yeah, but like, you're actually with me on the other side going, not, no, no. Yeah, that's what it's like those weird lines that you won't cross. It's just like, you know, it's weird. Yeah. Yeah, and see that you don't care when it comes to culture. You're like, oh man, I don't know. Yes, but then you probably, the problem is that I've become a place in you where I'm like, you know, I don't really like you. Would you like a caramel Jack that albino? No, maybe. I make with that. Yeah. Yeah. I remember the guy before the show where I'm like, where you're like, you can take your male love scale and use them for a few years. Well, the female grows up. You're breeding the contrast. I'm like, stop it. I'm going and I'll get really bumpy. Yeah. So what's wrong with that thing? It's just, what was you even call it? Yeah. I don't know. I would just call it sandpaper. I mean, that's what we're looking at here. This is the new sandpaper morph. Yeah. How the hell did that stage? Oh, he ground his skin against the lock and virtually wore it out. Damn it. So, yeah, I mean. John. John will be on here and, like I said, I'll be talking about talking about that. And then the week after that, we have our good friend, Mr. Jason Bailin coming on and we're doing our site episode as far as the carpet python morphs go. This time, we're going to be talking about tigers, tiger carpets. So, if you're into things striped or into tiger carpets, this will be, yep, just want to check out. We'll be talking about everything from the history to what makes a tiger tiger and what makes it different from, say, a striped carpet and what, you know, what are some projects that are going on with breeding those guys. And maybe, you know, you get a fully beautiful tiger. You know, because it's a pop so it's not as easy to hit to hit as say, you know, just bring it back to it. I'm curious because I think me and Jason have tried to do tiger with Zebra, talked a little bit about this at Hamburg and all the traits are kind of like they're not really working together too well. But Mr. here is thoughts on that. So, some pretty cool shows coming up. So, be sure to tune in. I guess with that being said, we'll wrap the show up and head on out for us. Mariah Python radio. You can check out our website, mariahpythonradio.com. If you have questions or comments, get suggestions, contact us at info@mariahpythonradio.com. Follow us on Twitter @mariahpython, like our Facebook page, Mariah Python radio. If you want to listen to the show, probably the best way would be iTunes or whatever your podcast app of choice is. If you subscribe on iTunes, go give us a comment, give us a like, you know, try to get the show up there. You would much appreciate it. As far as myself, Eby, Mariah, I did some, I was talking to Zach today about this. The main website is a bitch, man. I woke up at five o'clock this morning and I worked on my website till about something like that. I wasn't really happy with the way the collection page worked, but I feel pretty happy about what's going on there now. So basically, I have updated my collection page and you can check that out and threw out probably the next couple months. What I'm doing is I'm making a page where you click on the picture of the animal on the collection page and then it will take you to another page. We'll give you some background, some natural history on the species. Say if it's a morph, it'll give you some info on the morph and then what we have in our collection. So, you know, if you're cruising around, I should have at the end of the week some pictures of what's going to be available and you can check out the availability. Actually, the store, the way my website works is the store that's on the website actually transposes over to Facebook. So, you can check it out on my Facebook page as well as ebmorrelia.com. So, like I said, give us some views over there. I've been starting to do a weekly blog. So, ebmorrelia goes, might as well be on the citrus tiger, I figured I got a lot of people asked about, you know, what's the story behind these guys. So, I'm going to put that down in an entry at some point this week. So, I call it the Morrelia files. So, you get out over there on ebmorrelia.com. Oh, shoot, what was the other thing I was going to say? I hit 1,300 likes on Facebook page, which I'm super happy about. For everybody out there that gives me support. I appreciate it. I thank you. And I hope that, you know, just, you're digging pictures and making and putting up there. And I just appreciate the support. So, hopefully we can get that number up to Matt Minutola's 1500 stratosphere. But, you know, we'll see. That's all I've got. So, I will probably be heading to him. Oh, if not. I have sister. Right. So, if you're interested in, and you're going to be at Hamburg, shoot me a message. And I'll see if we can make that happening. That's all I got. For me, you can go to www.roadpath.com. We have a few snakes left over from last season, as well as the 30 season. So, kick it around. You do that in 15 babies and not up yet, but they are eating. So, if you're interested in the first clutch, which is a red tiger to another red tiger, jagged red tiger. We've got some nice tigers out of that group, one jagged. Give us a call, or if the other one, which is a high contrast, Queensland tiger to a caramel jagged. Let us know. We've got some really good looking car moles and caramel jagged out of that one. Lots of girls too. So, give us a ring. We'll be able to get you on the list for that clutch, as well as notify you of anything else that's going on. You're at Rogue. You can also go over and find Rogue Reptiles on Facebook.com. Like Eric said, I will be at the August show that's August 1st up in Hamburg, Pennsylvania. We finally got our table back, so we are back in action selling and not losing my table ever again. I promise. So, definitely going to be cool. Definitely going to be awesome, and I hope to see everybody there. Other than that, we will say good night, and we will catch everybody back here for some more Marrelia Python on radio. Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL. Where's a reptile breeder and the owner of Proxox? I've been herping since I was a boy, and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breeding and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Marklin and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links, so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business, and the best part is, it's free. If you're a buyer or breeder, you're going to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling destination, full of features to help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system, searched by sex, weights, morph, or other keywords, and use our Buy Now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.thereptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum mat. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buy our own selling, use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. Shipereptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. The materials needed to ship the reptile successfully, live customer support in our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace, find that perfect pet or breeder, then visit shipreptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related.