Morelia Python Radio

Australian pythons with Nick Mutton and Paul Harris

In this episode we are joined by the two biggest names in the carpet python world. Nick Mutton from Inaland Reptle and Paul Harris from Uk Pythons. Nick is a full time breeder that has actually written the book on carpet pythons and Paul is a full time breeder with the most cutting edge of carpet pythons in the world. Of course we will be talking about carpet pythons but we are going to also hit on some of the other pythons that these guys keep. From childrens to blackheads and everything in between. We will also have a live chat going on facebook if you would like to ask any questions to our guests. If you want to be added to the live chat then send me a PM and I will add you to the group

Duration:: 2h 39m
Broadcast on:: 23 Jun 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in the NFL or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Proxox. I've been hurtful since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Markland and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up to date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. If you're a buyer or breeder, you've got to check out the reptile report marketplace. The marketplace is the reptile world's most complete buying and selling destination full of features to help put you in touch with the perfect deal. Find exactly what you're looking for with our advanced search system. Search by sex, weight, more for other keywords and use our Buy Now option to buy that animal right now. Go to marketplace.the reptilereport.com and register your account for free. Be sure to link your marketplace account to your ship your reptiles account to earn free tokens with each shipping label you book. Use the marketplace to sell your animals and supplies and maximize your exposure with a platinum mat. It also gets fed to the reptile report and our powerful marketplace Facebook page. Buy on your selling, use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates. Shipereptiles.com can also supply you with the materials needed to safely ship your animal successfully. Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates and materials needed to ship the reptile successfully live customer support in our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace. Find that perfect pet or breeder then visit shipreptiles.com to ship that animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Good evening, everybody. I should say good afternoon. I don't know what to say. It's good evening, good evening, early evening. Yes, good twilight for you. We are in the middle of a major storm. It happens this way every single time that we have, we have a couple bumps in our road tonight. But it seems that every time we have, something happens like, you know, the blog talk goes off when we were talking to one of the Python hunters, I forget which one. We had technical. Oh, yeah, that was a couple of times we were talking to Peter Burch over. Oh, man. Damien, hi. Damien, hi, right. They're all. I'm sorry. That's all a blur. They're all a blur with you people. Three goddamn years. Okay, so people are you straight? Yeah, there's a, yeah, right. There's a major storm right in our area that's just coming above us, lightning thunder before the show went live, you know, and we're kind of having a hard time here in each other. So this possibility that the show might just drop dead, which is okay. I mean, if lightning has hit Eric, that means we're all dead because usually it's all things in the area first. Yeah, good point. Good point. Yeah. The other little kink in the road tonight is that Paul Harris is sick. So it will just be Nick that's joining us, which he hasn't called in yet, but that's fine. So we're going to have to reschedule with Paul. But you still have Nick and Nick has a lot to talk about. I'm sure. As far as I'm trying to Python's go, but so that's kind of where we're situated at. I guess until, I don't know, do you want to talk about it that one or even now I want to talk about it. The big elephant in the room. What else in the room. The big elephant in the room. Well, I guess. Fair enough. Well, I'm just going to. Okay. Well, we can skip over it because today in the mail, I got. Oh, you want me to be the one? Okay. Yeah. The yesterday in the world of Morelia, there was. Quite a bit of drama, I guess you would say. And, you know, the whole thing with never. Yeah, it seems like it's. Ever rampant as of late, but the whole. Oh my goodness, man, it is lightning bed. Both you. The. On air. We're going to die on it. Zach, if I go, my snakes are yours. Except for the ones. Well, you're going to die too, man. I thought you said we were dying on air. Well, you might, I mean, I don't know. Well, okay. If I die on air. Oh, and you, if you survive, you can have my snakes. Victory. There you go. All right. Anything I J related, you were not allowed to have. I don't want it to throw that up. Yeah, that must, that must move to, to Mr. Baez. But anyway, so there was a. A auction page started. Which I don't know. I guess there's a, there's a whole multitude of. Whole multitude. Oh my God. It sounds like the end of the world. Anyway, there was a multitude of posts put all over the place about the auction. And of course, being an auction is a Taji subject. A lot of people did get frustrated. Invent their frustrations and then get angry and vent their anger. There's a lot of back and forth. I ran away from the internet. I unplug and ran. I sent Eric in there to die. But of course it was one of those things that. You knew anybody should have known going in. And it really can't. If this is a shock to anybody who is involved with the auction page that it was met with. Some hostility clearly had not been paying attention to anything. A lot of people are against the auctions. A lot of people do not like the way that works. A lot of people are hearing that looking at other species that have crashed. It kind of went down with the auction page. A lot of, we had Jamie Kearns on last week. And he said that once leopard geckos and other kind of gecko breed started through an auction page. The price is kind of crashed. It can kind of be met with that. And of course other people are running around saying we auction all horses. How is this any different? There's a little bit of a difference. Especially with the whole reserve and then people are saying it's the best way to get the pulse in the market. Which is fine. And yes, you can get a pulse on what people are willing to pay through an auction. But you're also selling yourself short in my opinion by attempting to publicly destroy the price page on an animal. And that's that. I don't like that. And personally, of course, nobody ever pays the prices. People are not saying nobody ever pays the prices that are listed on a table. And that's fine. Through a relationship through another breeder, of course, you can have, you know, I don't pay full price when I buy from friends of mine. And I don't sell it full price when I sell the friends of mine. But that's not the listed price that I have to the public to see. You know, it's the way it is. And of course, you know, how I feel about it is not going to stop anybody from doing it or having the auction pages. I understand it's just going to be something that I wish the community could tread lightly on. And I doubt it's going to happen that way. Well, I guess I have a couple, a couple of points that I would, is it hitting your house? I mean, like literally, I think I'm in the middle of a tornado. I actually got called by some of my insurance saying that they are getting a forecast of hail down by you, which is, I'm glad I moved. So you're getting worse than I am. I know you are. And I'm only like an hour away. So, but you got the worst. Even though I am. We're on here talking about the weather, but you know how people get mad when we talk about the weather. I guess my feeling on the whole. Yeah, I guess my feeling on the whole auction thing is, is, I don't know, it just seems like. Oh, man, it just seems like we were better that like that. We were more selective in breeding and more selective in that kind of thing to where you never really needed that kind of. It just seems to me like it's a, it's a cheap way to get rid of, or get rid of snakes that you maybe produced too many of just simply to not look like you're dropping the price drastically. You know what I mean? I just think that I don't know, man. I missed the days of, you know, I put this in one of the posts on there. I just missed the days of when you were on MP. You just kind of like. You saw people's animals and you got excited about the parents and specific animals that they had and. You know, you, you just, you would be lucky if you got on the list and to get animals from it and. You know, it just seems like maybe that. I don't know, there's still people that. That do that, but it seems like maybe that disappeared a little bit. I don't know if it's because of Facebook or. Well, I don't know what the point is, but like. Well, I know it still happens, but also want to imagine that it disappeared where it's not like one or two guys are producing animals that you want. If I'm sitting here and I want. Something on my list to get this year is probably an example because I have my authentic Jack. And I'm running into the problem of I have too many Jaguars. So doing certain pairings are running into. Jack the Jack, so I want to get a normal example. So now it used to be only one person would ever come up with the thing that you wanted. And you had to make sure you got on their list and you have to wait and you have to sit and make sure your top dollar right there. Go on their list waiting. Now it's like. He's going to have it. He's going to have it. He's going to have it. He's going to have it. So why am I going to get put on a list where I'm going to wait for everybody to produce their cultures. And I'm going to see what's the best of the best. But see that's where I differ from a lot of people. I know where to go and you know I know who I want it from. So I'm still going to go put my name down. Like I probably don't have to but I'm still going to go do it because I want to make sure I get back from that person. Luckily Nick's on tonight so I'll just tell him to put me down on the list today. Yeah, I think I think those things still might happen behind closed doors. You don't know. Yeah, I think Lon summed it up best. He said if your animal was worth buying it would go for what you're asking price rather than playing wheel of fortune with its value. You know. Yeah, you'll fortune with its value. Even that's exactly what you're doing. And a lot of people I heard someone say that they could go for more than what it's worth bullshit bullshit. You ever see an animal go for higher than it inherit value is in a charity option. Well, yeah. My passion isn't flowing because I'm about getting electric. As soon as the storms pass I'm unkegging the dynamite. You know, I don't know. You saw a lot of thing on there about you know, tears of breeders and such and like hired these high breeders. And these new breeders can't compete with them. But the higher tier breeders weren't always the higher tier. And God damn it, man. If you want to put your name out there, then do something about it. Stop being this like, you know, I can't nobody knows who I am. Nick will tell you he told me that a long time ago. He's like, man, you're buying all these high dollar snakes. But nobody knows who to hell you are. How you didn't lose your shit when that comment was made, I don't know. Because again, I ran away from the internet, but it's like the idiocy of that argument is that I have to lower my prices in order to compete with the guys who have the name because I can't draw on people. So build a name for a man. I don't want to start anything. I don't want to be that guy, but it's like, are you freaking kidding me? Do you think anybody knew who I was when I had a bunch of carpet pipes on three tables down from Jason Bailing? No, it was right back. But you have to go to the show. You have to not sell for a while. You've got to work your way up. You've got to build a relationship. You've got to talk to people. You bring your freaking adult Jaguar carpet pipes onto a show and everyone starts talking to you. Build a rapport. You start getting customers. You wait for the baby for that color. I have to come play because I don't have a name. Then build your damn name. God damn it. I'm sorry. I'm trying to get pissed off. And you're fired up more than me. But here's an idea. I don't know. You know, there's an event that comes maybe, well, there's one on the west coast and there's one on the east coast. And you know, I don't know. Maybe you could attend it and get to me. Oh, what is that event called, Owen? It's carpet, but you idiot. Oh, that's it. That's right. I forgot about that. You know, so I mean. I don't understand. The one that absolutely kills me is like, what do you mean you can't build your name? There wasn't half the shit that you have at your fingertips when I started. That was only 10 years ago. Yeah. There was empty and there was nothing. There was no face to face. There were no pictures. There were no, there was no carbon sites. There was no more like putting on radio. There was no goddamn book. And you're telling me you can't do this because you're lazy and you don't want to do it. Yeah, yeah, that's what it comes down to. But it's a brother tag game. Ernie. Yeah, yeah. But let's get Nick on here. If I can click them on, I don't know. My computer might not work. It might be frozen, let's say. It might be what you want to do. Yeah, this will be the death of me. There we go. Nick, am I on? Yeah, you're on. All right, Nick. All this turned off because we're in the middle of torrential storm. So. Yeah, we'll see. I'm trying something new this time. I'm so far behind stuff. I'm actually going to have to. I'm going to catch the clean at least 200 adult carpet pipes on while final thing is to do in the show. Yes. Oh, all right. So I'm literally listening. I'm literally talking to you on Bluetooth headphones because my cell phone doesn't even work in my snake building because it's made out of steel. So it's got to go to my headphones to my phone by the door and then it was cell phone tower and they do a satellite where you're on it. It's like an all the stuff in between your store goals. We'll see how well this goes, but. I can't. I cannot sit down. I got. I get this point. I do this to myself every year where. It's just never seem to want to lay clutches and like a nice kind of graduated, metered out kind of way. It's always like this all at once and then they all hatch. So I went from having zero, twenty, fifteen babies, so I think a hundred of them in seventy two hours. Holy crap. I'll have two hundred bait within. I'll go from zero to like two hundred babies in two weeks. And like a two week window. It's just ridiculous. Yeah, but I can't even keep up with making labels alone. You know, just for all of them. It's crazy. Let's go. So I have to clean you all. Cleaning some adults. All right. Well, we got. Yeah, I try to get away. I try to get a little tired up there. Yeah. I let it get away from me. I'm good now. I promise. Geez. I wouldn't use a switch to decaf or something from the set. I tried. Yeah. A little. A little. A little wider. Man. Just. Yeah. It's why I run away from the Internet. I really shouldn't be let out places. Oh, man. I hear you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. The auction is ending. It is probably open. There's actually an inability really. Like you said. I don't know. I'm a little. I try to not talk about reptile market stuff if I can possibly avoid it. Yeah. I'm probably going to adopt that rule. So. Yeah. It kind of. It pisses me off more than it makes me happy. The market in general. Typically, it's usually when you're talking about it. It's usually. You never talking about it because you're really stoked. It's always because you're angry usually. Yeah. That's the nature of the free market. I'm very. I guess I'm a big supporter of a free market. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's always a touchy subject because you have, you know, I don't know. I'm kind of. I kind of have that. People make fun of me. I say you do you boo. But, you know, I mean, you're going to do what you're going to do. And that's fine. But. Yeah. It's always a touchy subject because you have, you know, I don't know. I'm kind of. I kind of have that people make fun of me. I say you do you boo. But, you know, I mean, you're going to do what you're going to do. But, I don't know. It just seems silly that this new group of, I don't know. I don't even know how to say it. Like they just, I don't know. It's just a different vibe. Like this one person is arguing on face. It's almost like I think they're trolling. This one person's arguing on Facebook. Right. And they don't even own a carpet python. Like, how do you have any clue? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. You know, and I try not to argue with these types of people. But. Not heavy. It's the internet. It's the internet. Not having any direct knowledge or experience of the subject matter does not exactly stop people from arguing. No. No, it doesn't. Not at all. I don't know. I think it's like a lot of things. When prices come down and people are, somebody's always really thrilled. Everybody wants everything to be really cheap when they buy it and really expensive when they sell it. They want that. They don't mind if the price comes down when they can afford to get something. And then as soon as that happens, they want to never drop again ever. So we all want it to be like, we bought it as this price. You'd like that commodity if you look at it as a commodity anyway to say exactly the same price for eternity. Here after, which, of course, is an underutilistic expectation system. We're certainly not immune to the laws of supply and demand. Yeah, right. Yeah. So we have purpose. It's a little different, though, in that. You have no other area of the restaurant market. You see such a premium place on the quality of the example of a given thing. There's things just been around for a long time. At this point, I don't think it's even possible for me to make a normal jag. I can't even make a normal. Well, I can't. Everything's an exact jag or a super caramel jag. It's always, I can't make a pie design. I cannot make one. Every jag breeder I have is either a super caramel or a visual example. So I can't. There isn't a lot. If I get it, I mean, I would say, like, you could get it. I could study that actually for a decent jag or a hundred bucks. It's been around for quite a long time. And that's all well and good. But there's still people who pay a thousand dollars for a gamma jag, which, to me, I believe in the free market. But that seems completely absurd to me. But the free market, but for the only area of the restaurant market I can think of where people give the exact same morph, the same thing, essentially. When people pay ten times that amount, the low and the high means ten times that dollar amount for what people need to be an exceptional quality example. I mean, look at Jungle Carpets. You get a $50. You don't have to look for a hard to find a $50 Jungle Carpet. But you can also get a $500 Jungle Carpet. And the $500 Jungle Carpets still sell even though there's plenty of $50. There's probably more $50 Jungle Carpets aren't out there. They always sell. We're looking at a lot of other species too. But if you're buying fall pythons, you're paying for the more. People don't get a crap. I mean, they're not going to pay you much more. Are they any--you're not going to get really any premium to see, because it's a really awesome example. They want gene A and gene B in the same sake. And that's really what the value of it's based on. And everything else is a very, very distant consideration. Where Carpets, it's like the quality of the phenotype of the example, makes all the difference. And so we're a little different than that regard. So, like, I mean, I've seen--I saw in the last week, I've seen, on the last 72 hours, I've seen a couple of just a thirdly low prices on a fever. Just ridiculous. In my estimation anyway. But, you know what? About the same time, I hardly get a crap. Because I'm going to get whatever I'm asking for my nice ones. And if there's some--there aren't that great lookers, or they're not your joke, or whatever. I mean, it's like, it's not--I don't know. People will pay more for quality within the carpet market anyway than you see. To a greater extent than you see typically in other factors in the reptile market, I guess. You know, an albino ball is an albino ball, and they sell for that same price, no matter who you get it from or what it looks like. Carpets? Right. You've got--is it pure? Is it mixed? Is it an exceptional example of what it's supposed to be? Do you have all the ancestry information? There's still only other variables that we worry about. The other sectors of our kids don't really worry about. So they, you know, it's a little different, I guess. Not entirely different, but a little different. Right. I don't know. I also gave up worrying about this shit a long time ago. I mean, I would do nothing but sit around worrying about market conditions if I--you can't--it looks like you can't even worry about it. Just make what you're going to make and worry about it when you have some babies to worry about it. It's like not even special. There's so much stuff going on in so many moving parts. I can't even--I don't know. Every year part of me thinks like, "What am I going to do with all these babies?" And you know what? At the end of the year, they're all caught. By and large. I mean, they always seem to--I always seem to find home forms, so I just quit worrying about it. Nick, we have to put something to rest. Have you ever produced 900 babies? Yes. No. No, I didn't. Yeah, I didn't. No. If I had the ability to grow the hair on my head, it would all fall out of the bottom of my head. [laughter] Okay. I don't have any hair. No. I think this last year I did 638, which frankly is really too many. Okay. I included that. I don't know if my ideal number or maximum number of babies is, but I know now with quite a couple of these, it's below that. Because that is a lot of baby snakes. Hey, just, you know, you can only--it's always so many hours a day. And I don't want to have employees because I don't want to--I mean, I know what's going on with every single baby, every single adult, everything is going on. So that kind of limits you. If you have a question, you know, people, you're paying minimum wage to clean cages and move snakes around, then your reputation is resting on, you know, if someone finds a snake for me, they're buying a snake for me. And I just--all--everything went into it was me. If you're buying a snake for me, you know, figure out that they've got a bunch of other people, because how do you--I don't know. I'm very uneasy about putting my reputation in someone else's hands, which is what the variable you'd be doing. Because it's like, well, if they threw up this on you, you know, I need to guarantee this and that. Who's the dad of this clutch and that clutch and all that. I just--I don't know. I don't want to get to this one where I have to have an employee. Although sometimes, we might have somebody to clean your ass. That would be fine. That would be fine. Yes, but not the snake. I'll clean snakes, but I ain't cleaning rats. Do you know what I'm talking about? Like, it's all the cost. I mean, the cost and benefit of raising your own rodents is, you know, so let me tell you, if you've got 600 baby carpets and you're trying to get them all started on frozen foods in your first meal, good luck to you. That is a nightmare. I had to do it for years. It's horrible. I mean, it's not impossible, but it's way harder rather than, you know, doing more traditional where you're just, hey, you've got some at least some live rodents. You're already trying to get them to be a natural prey animal because mics are not even native to Australia. So you don't really recognize that as a prey force anyway. You're trying to get them to be the wrong thing. And then you want them to be dead. So you're trying to eat something because they want to eat some, you know, live Australian skin. You're going to get a dead European rodent. I mean, it's a lot easier. Right. At least the rodents move in, you know, at least initially. They get the ball rolling. Off to the races on frozen anyway, but you got to have that. 90% of my own rodents. Wow. That raises a question. And then we have a question. But my first question would be, what do you think, again, I'm probably going to sound stupid when I say that reptiles are different than mammals. But what do you think of the, would there be any benefits to having a variety diet? Like a variety of different foods in their diet as far as like saying rats, birds, stuff like that. Absolutely. Most animals, no animal, I mean, there's a few dietary specialists just being in the world that eat just a single thing. I mean, by and large, most vertebrates are not necessarily generalists, but they're going to eat more than one thing. I mean, and the reason there's obviously a lot of advantages to being able to eat more than one source of prey is part of our whatever. You're eating, you know, just eating what you're eating, you're eating what your prey has eaten. So if you're eating more varied diets, efficiently, you're getting other things at least on occasion when you're rotating another prey animal. That's not a bad thing. A really big thing is a fat concept of what we are feeding our animals. We feed something, nothing but rodents this entire life from prey to the grave. Most rodents themselves are eating nothing but lab blocks. You're getting no variation in what you're feeding at all, really. And it's very, you know, captive bred rodents that we feed are way healthier than wild animals. I mean, if you've ever seen it caught a wild python, a lot of them look half dead. They're all covered in scars and pigs, they're all put up and they're dead and they seem to get along just fine. But they're up there eating, what are they eating, some scraggly at, half starved mammal or whatever. I mean, what their prey isn't any better looking than they are, and they're designed to get on with that, and that's fine. But, you know, nutritionally, a wild rodent's half starved or a lizard or another snake or whatever is a lot leaner. Because wild prey animals rarely have the luxury of excess body fat. But captive rodents always have that. So we very briefly feed a fattier prey animal. And metabolically that can cause, you know, that's not a good thing. If you look at the best example I could pick up is blackhead python. There's a lot of studies of good kind of pets and stuff. Blackhead phythons in the wild, 85% of their diet is other reptiles. 85%, they just take their reptile eaters that eat the occasional mammals. Reptiles do not store body fat like a mammal does. Mammals are always fattier. So if you eat a reptile based diet, these are animals that have evolved to speak more or less reptile eating specialists. And so they have adapted to a leaner diet. And if you feed them, that's why the brackets can be problematic. If you feed them too many rodents too big, you feed them too fast on all mammal diets to that problem. And stuff, because it's nutritionally not really as good a match for what they're supposed to eat. And you can feed them incredibly grave on mammals. But you can't, you've got to be careful about it and everything. So, you know, it's my blackhead that I wrote to do an adult quail and things. I've got a juvenile female blackhead I just fed a carpet python to. But the, you do end up patching the old, any of my grief, you guys both know. You get the odd billboard, you know, calling out in the egg right at full term. I waste nothing. I've got to sit and slide on. It is. The chance that a juvenile blackhead, they'll eat all of it. And he's still bored with a hash still or almost a hash still consume them. Waste not what not. But that's, what is a juvenile blackhead going to be eating in the wild? Others say a small lizard. Perfect. You know, there's not a, I mean, having been in Australia three times. You don't see a hyper appointments of small, mouth-sized mammals running around. You see a lot of lizards and snakes. A lot of lizards. You know, I mean, these things are mostly eating. You know, they have to reach it. You know, stinkin' python in particular. I mean, they'll eat anything. I feel much stuff. It's like, that's not the bulk of their diet. But it's like when, opportunistically, when I have situation arises, I absolutely will. I absolutely believe they're better for it. Better off for it. So. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So Tim's question is, oh, go ahead. No, I'll say go ahead. Tim's question is, if you have, let's see, do you feed differently when getting a virgin female ready for breeding season as opposed to a proven breeder? Now, I mean, you're kind of looking for the same body condition and everything. I mean, I think a lot of people make a lot of that. That is perception of all, like, first-time breeders. You know, if there's something goes wrong with a reproductive effort that, oh, if they're a virgin, it was like, oh, this is the first time. That's why she's slugged out. If that's why the male is, you know, shootin' blanks. And that's why I could eat with a young male. And they're like, I really haven't found it to be true. And probably larger than people hear a lot of excuses for things, but it's really just, it's just bad. I mean, we've all heard the pantheon of reptile keeper excuses about stuff, you know. Something like that. It's like, oh, you ever heard the one that something dies unexpectedly? They said, oh, I think I got a bad batch of rats or something. I've heard that a million times over the years. What does that even mean? A bad batch of rats. It's like, yeah, it's probably more bad husbandry than a bad batch of rats, I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I got a, I mean, I got a, I figured it out and crossed into some of these morch and stuff. I've had kind of a little rough start and stuff. And sometimes, something tied to the gene, it's the morch itself and you can't really do what's about it. I.E. Jack, there are a lot of issues. And sometimes it could be in pretty depression. So, I got a very genetically diverse collection. So, I have the ability to do that. So, I'm figuring out crossing things and stuff. So, I'm going to, you know, a taken point. Like the original example coastal kind of a record track record. I for with the opportunity to get a visual example because it would have been a really inbred one and that didn't seem to be, you know, while it would have been faster. It didn't seem like it was likely to be a successful based on what I'd seen. So, I got outcropped head examples. I made my own examples. So, this year I'm breeding examples and I made myself from pets because I wanted that genetic diversity and stuff. And, you know, all those problems, I have a little tiny male visual example, Jack, that he hit knocked up five females. It's 18-year-old. Why? I ran out of females. I gave them a female that wasn't even going to breed this year. A virgin super-carval female. And this thing is like, you know, 1,400 grams broken away. I just hit 11 perfect eggs. No slugs. So, I mean, so much for, you know, first-time animals not doing well and stuff. I mean, I've had a lot of, I've come to this year and had better performances on a lot of these first-time animals and some of the proven ones, really. I don't get ready to do it. I'll do it. So, I guess, you know, adequate fat reserves and everything else. If you kind of set the stage, or accept the best you can anyway, it'll work very well. I don't put a lot of, I've never had like a, you know, a particular male that, you know, always young and then all of a sudden it just doesn't feed it. I don't know. I've never seen that yet. So, there's any number of reasons for reproductive failure, but I never know, you know, young animals, but not really being one of them. So, another question we had come in is that you had a clutch of tandem bar scrubs. Yes. Awesome. Well, if you could get them to get very special. Could have been considerably more awesome, I suppose. Well, you know, I put up on my blog and put stuff about that because I think a lot of people kind of just are very, they're very quick to cheer their own successes, but very resistant to point out when things don't go perfectly. And every year I've been doing this for a room and been reading pythons for over 20 years now and, you know, full time for you to get on the line. And it's every year has its share of triumphs and tragedies for sure. It's kind of, you got to take the good with the bad. I'll have, there's some things this year I'm just going to totally hit it out of the park like a better than I expected, and to those things are going to keep you square in the nuts. And that's kind of the nature of it. If you want, if you wanted a safe, easy hobby, collect baseball cards, not live animals. You know, that's true. Yeah. You know, that's not what you're going to do, right? I mean, you're going to keep on keeping on. The scrub complex in general, I mean, without a doubt, I don't think anybody that's kept them is going to argue with me on this one. They are the hardest Python's in the world degree, as a group. Collectively. People have success with this or that. Internally, some people even, you know, with some regularity. But as a group, as a whole, they are just the hardest. Yeah. Even the easiest members of that complex degree, which are, I'm not really as far next with others, which should be different species from each other anyway. But even those, they're not easy to breathe. They're just the easiest of a hard group. They're still hard. I mean, I think a lot of people spend too much time tapping themselves in the back because they've read a lot of easy stuff. Like, you breathe, you know, you have repeated success, breathing, scrub, Python. That is impressive. That's not easy. Perfect. But space is as wonderful as in there. They're not too hard. They're pretty agreeable. I mean, some are a little harder than others. But yeah, even at worst, it's pretty easy and pretty straightforward to get them to do this thing. Scrub this stuff. It's always that, it's always, I mean, it's difficult to calculate it like crazy. It always seems like you're kind of just on the edge of it. You know what I mean? It's like you're, whatever the recipe is to induce a good ingredient, a successful ingredient of them, it's like a lot of times you get right up to the finish line and it just shortens success. Something goes wrong. You know, you end up with a fat clutch or a marginal clutch or they're tough. And I don't know, you know, when they are, when you put an airplane successfully, it's rarely that anybody did anything special, particularly. It's just, they're, I don't know whether it's just, they're so nervous and high-strung and they need to settle down, you know, and feel secure themselves or what. But it's a, they're challenging. But it's important that people keep trying. You know, a lot of these things, us old guys have been doing this for a long time, have a lot longer memory. I think a lot of younger people getting into a hobby now just to assume that things that, they take for granted that so many of these things are like so commonly bred and so routinely easily bred when it was not always that way. I mean, a lot of these people breed. So in blood plaitons, we're considered to be difficult to breed. There are people breeding like, you know, we've domesticated them along with a lot of those things. And now things that historically were considered a very difficult to breed now, it's just, you know, very routine and stuff. But it didn't, it wasn't always that way. It's because we made great progress both in our understanding of how to do these things and with multi-generation cats and friend lineages that frankly breed easier. I mean, they're now starting down the road of domestication. You know, we had it inadvertently selected for easier breeders. The ones that didn't want to breed in the box didn't breed the box. The only ones that passed their genes along with another generation were the ones that were at least kind of amenable to doing so. And over time you end up with domesticated lineages in all manner. I wrote a piece in my information, my call was about that exact subject. It kind of acts in all domestication we've embarked on. Yeah, that was good. Why do these things have become easier to breed over time? And then we'll continue. You know, the amount of environmental stimulus that these would be provided to kind of get them to do their thing, it would reach the generation of captive breeding and get selected. They'd just be easier and easier to, you know, need to cycle them as much or for as long as they just, you know, they're slowly but surely becoming non-seasonal. It's like dogs. Dogs are all descendants of this. Dogs are really just selected in great wolves. And, you know, wolves are the totally different social structure. Wolves only reproduce once a year, but dogs come to eat twice a year. We've, you know, it's the same sort of a thing. Now we're seeing like all type of bred for some of these generations. They're effectively nearly a non-seasonal breeder now. They'll breed with no environmental cycling at all. They'll breed at any month of the year because we're just literally, we've constantly pushed that envelope with them and that's really another thing. Do you think they will be able to do that with carpets at some point? I know we will. I mean, I mean, I've had a surprise. I've had a kind of a tumultuous relationship with Terry there in South Dakota. But I mean, he's very gentle. So we're not doing a whole heck of a lot to him. I mean, what does that tell you? It's not that they've never needed that immediate additional, you know, a lot of special effects, I guess you could say. But it's like the further down the road, it's like the breeding you get. Everything, eventually, is just marching towards this less and less, a trend of less seasonality, less environmental stimulus, and just easier breeders. It just is just the way, I mean, look at corn snakes, which are very seasonal in their reproduction and everything. But I know people have bred corn snakes doing absolutely nothing. Is that because you go catch a wild corn snake and do nothing? But when you're 20 generations of captive breeding on the line, it's like we're the example change with each generation of captive breeding. And they change whether we are, sometimes we intentionally do it, a breeding for a particular phenotype. Other times, it's things we're not even trying to do, but we're doing anyway. We are always kind of putting connection pressure on these animals for easier introduction, i.e. we don't have to do this much. And we're waiting feeding for rogue eaters. I mean, a wild, you know, hog no snake does not know what a kinky mouse is, but a captive bred hog no snake will just come out of the gate and eat a pinky. So an unnatural thing in the world. But they do. It's because the ones that existed on eating codes didn't live long enough, didn't pass their genes on with the same frequency, and the few that small percentage that would take a pinky, they're the ones who reproduce. You know, so if you look at what happens, like, everything is reproducing more frequently with less stimulus. They're eating rodents more, and they're reproducing at younger ages, younger and smaller ages and sizes. It's like, all that is because we're putting selection pressure on these animals for those things, because that's what we want. We want things that reproduce fast, larger collection, smaller sizes, younger ages, flashier colors, and we wanted to eat domesticated rodents. So the animals that do those things, and for whatever extent, they generally need more offspring behind. The ones that went up, the ones that held out had it started on code, didn't live either, didn't live to adulthood, or certainly didn't pass on the genes as often as the ones that came out of the gate ate a pinky mouse, got the maturity in a year, and left a much, made a bunch of babies. Those are the ones that are, so it just, it sears it, and we look at jungle carpets, but people think, most hobbyists, I think, think that if they go to Queensland, they're going to be able to go find some bright-ass yellow and black snake up, but it could be somewhere, and that's just not true, is it? I mean, it's like-- No. It's just, it's almost like we've collected the represents of this unnatural state where every animal is sumshated. Even the animals, we can't send it to be ugly or average jungles now, where the trophy jungles are 15 years ago. I mean, it's like a, we're, I see people complaining about things, and, you know, it's getting muddy or whatever. It's like these animals are not the norm. I mean, certainly not in the wild population. We just kind of steered that baseline appearance to such an extent. It's so huge now that people have, like, kind of lost sight of where these things stay from. You'll find a jungle carp in the wild. You'll find black and gold, brown and gold, golden gray. Any, you know, olive green. You'll find all these different colors, you know, within a spectrum of what, you know, caused through the jungle carpets, but in captivity, we focused, like, a laser beam on yellow and black, and nothing else. So all the other, you know, bits in that, that natural range of phenotype are basically lost. We don't even have that anymore because they're all, kind of, sacrificed all that to make these consistently black and yellow snakes, because that was what we multiplied. So it kind of created an unnatural thing with it. Yeah, I'm a sucker for a bright yellow and black jungle carpets myself, but it is kind of, we have almost like this weird, kind of, you know, obsession with that to the detriment of all the other kind of looks and stuff that jungle carpets can possess naturally. I like them all. True. Well, I mean, there was the Nick and I, you and I talked about this with the same thing with my Dominican Boas saying that, you know, of course, there were like three or four right out of the litter that didn't even take, Geckos went straight onto rodents. So those would be the one that, you know, you'd expect that you're better than everybody else. If you're smart, oh, yeah, those are the ones that keep back, the ones that ate the best right out of the gate, and they're going to be the ones, the first ones that get a maturity, they're going to breed that early, because they got more food in them, because they didn't give you a bunch of hard time, and they're going to leave. It's like at the end of the day, they're the ones that leave the most offspring behind, and the population, the captive population, just moves one more click towards, you know, animal-ended deep rodents in suppose a lizard eating, because who wants a lizard eating, maybe, the captivity? Not this guy. No one. I don't. Nobody. It's the world's biggest pain in the ass, and nobody wants them. I mean, I've got a lot of species that want to eat lizard, but, you know, when I hold back antiresia, baby, that's a private consideration. It's not just phenotype, it's like how good of a eater it is, how long it has been before, just made it tasty. I want to steer this towards, you know, making my own life a little bit easier, and stuff. So, well, do it. We do it whether we know we're doing it, or not. I mean, you just, you know, make three cases. The animal's absolutely pulled off the lizard. They don't even live. We just start and sell it out, and even if it was just that, that kind of self culling of the population, because the lizardies, the animals, they're holding out for prey animals that is not ever going to come by. I mean, eventually it just very slowly moves towards more metals, domesticated rodents break. But, yeah, you can help that process along, too. I mean, it doesn't have to be, it's going to happen eventually whether you want it to or not. Right. So, with carpets on landages, coastal carpets have been here longer than any other emphasis. But I dare say you'd probably have more generations of jungle carpets at this point than you used coastal carpets because the demand for jungle carpets was always so high. There's a lot more incentive to breed more jungle carpets, or the coastal is kind of plugged on. There's nobody like racing as fat as they can. You know, it's like it's not as much emphasis in the hobby on coastal carpets. You have a lot of tremendous number of generations of jungle carpets bred in captivity. And, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 at this point in some windages. And they're easier to get feeding. The older the need is jungle carpets. I mean, some species rather. If you're average jungle carpets wet or coastal carpets wet, pretty easy to get those things going to this. Yeah. More than half of them will just take a copper mouse in the first try, no problem. But if you look at other species of carpets, they'd have a shorter number of catheter generations, like Gretel's 5th up. I mean, probably my favorite species of all of them. But there are more difficult to get feeding. They're pretty part of that, so they're just unusually thoughtful, even in neonates. But part of it is like they're just not as many generations removed from something that's going to eat this looking for a skink. You know, eventually they'll get to that point. But, you know, every generation you're reinforcing a rodent feeding and everything, you've got a lineage of 10 generations of reinforcing, you know, mouse feeding. And you've got only three or four generations. It's harder still. It's harder, you know? The same with inland carpets and Darwin's up there, a little bit harder. Not hard hard, necessarily, but they are a little bit harder. And so these older lines that are just further down that road. Yeah, I had to give all my baby Gretel's life 'cause they would not take pros and all the tongs. They just wanted to kind of run away from it. So giving them the live stuff is what's looking to feed you feed all life, don't you, Nick? Well, I have to have the ability to go full place. Okay. My goal is to get a meeting whenever I need to get a meeting and then eventually get a meeting pros with Todd before I had love to play. 'Cause it's 98% of people in the hobby want things here. They almost assume that it's just automatically going to be pros and Todd. They make out assumption that everything is automatically eating pros and mice, so that's, you know, must be nice. You'll take that for granted, I suppose. I think I've got like three babies from most 600 that are still pissing me off. I want my prey. That's, you know, a tiny 90% as usually, you know, by three or four. You're really good at it. Yeah. I think there's something to deal with. Cool. She likes it. She can selectively grease or pray for her. She's like, "You can't propel in her pattern." I've never entered into people like that. I always tell people to do it. They're getting space for me. A lot of times they can't decide. They're like, "Well, you can quite get down like a couple, two or three, and they can't decide." And it's like, "Go with a better eater." If you can't decide based on any other factor or color and pattern, then take the one that was the first one to eat. Because the first one to eat, it's talking to make good babies, you know, that are reinforcing, you know, good eating and stuff and the trade and that's something you probably want to do. It's like, "No." And I think a lot of people don't pay attention to that enough. It's all about the look of the animal. Well, that might be the primary concern. It's how well it eats and everything. It should be in there somewhere, too. Well, the one thing that kind of confuses me is that people kind of shy away from animals that are not eating frozen thought or frozen, but might be eating frozen thought or something else. And it's like, "Why are you kind of downplaying it? You can get frozen chicks just as easy as you can get frozen rats." And it's the same way that you can eat them, so... The species is commonly available and it's just as easy to get, you know, something that's going to eat... Yeah. I don't want to... I don't want them to have to switch something over to a rodent. If I don't ask you, but it means that... I've tried it a million times. This is easy because you've got to do something. I don't want to do this because, yeah, I think I rotated and checked... ...stirrantly anyway. It kind of makes a little messier... ...defications, but, yeah, they're all going to... ...carps, in particular, absolutely adore chickens. So, that's the wrong with using chickens as a phrase for... Because I had a wild-caught IJ that never ate a rat. And this thing was a wild-caught, like, six-foot monster, right out of the wild. They got it in 1996. You know, before they were really anybody... I think the first captive breeding of IJs was a 95 BPI. I got to think about a year later, as a wild-caught, and it was just a beast. Got a pair of them, and they wouldn't be... ...I'd bet them nothing was shipping for about a decade. That's sick. I had an IJ, that thing was so big it laid out. 33.8 bucks at one point. It didn't, you know. It's a... ...ulturally what the yawter... ...a year later, was that... ...and the other hand. I can't really deal exactly what he used up with that pair. And I had nothing wrong with feeding chickens in the long term. Other than they kind of... ...they messed their cages a little more because... ...it turns out rodent hair is kind of like... ...you know, the... ...the... ...how like fiberglass, little fibers inside there kind of give it structure. Well, that's what rodent hair is doing for your safe search, pretty much. And without that, you tend to kind of smear around pretty good. It's not going to be a little messy, or it's not a nutritional way at all, fine. It's not to make... ...grew well, put on weight, right every year. Everything is fine. There's maybe, I don't know what to deal with them, but they're just, you know... ...I guess they've made it a while their entire lives, and you never know. I think that they might have been 30 years old because of things. You can't really know, and it just did not... ...was not going for rats. The nail eventually started taking rats after, like, 10 years in captivity. [laughs] He finally just one day after our first meal of the year after breeding... ...he didn't warm them up and everything, and then he decided, oh... ...he could see if he had a steak like... ...he could have eaten a long time, or had eaten whatever he wanted to be, and then like... ...he could kind of tell when they... ...they kind of smell it in the room and they kind of... ...put it up and you thought, "You're going to eat this?" We haven't even opened the cage yet, and he's like, "Oh, my God, are you actually interested in this?" Well, you just know they're going to hit it. Yeah, yeah, that was on my macbook. Oh, he took a decade in that animal's cage to finally figure out the rats' food. We ate anything else. We'd eat mice, we'd eat chicken, we'd eat hamsters... ...we'd eat anything in the world but a rat. I mean, that's just frustrating. Jesus. Yeah. There's always something over here doing that to me. We got this new snake, she always got something with some various feeding predictions. I'm so very dodging trying to be tagged here with this llama form. That's a great tool. The key thing is the empty paper towel roll. You ever do that, Tripp? Yes, I have, and it's back there. It's like taking over. It's like I eat some more at least as much as a hook. Just like put the paper towel to where we're said. Well, I can't say, "Well, I'm just..." I think, as long as they're not aggressive, you don't want to fight me. They're not going to eat me. They just think everything is true. They're going to be a little careful with them because they're one of those species that shouldn't feed them that much. They're really prone to obesity but they would eat every day in shed. It doesn't matter. They're just always, always looking for the ease. Just go ahead. Yeah. All right. Very cool. Let that answer. Talk on that question, Paul. I forgot what the question actually was. Sorry, but that's what the audience would figure out. Thank you. Now, for some species, they're just starting to gain steam here or speed where you're starting to see more captive clutches. Do you think we're kind of on the precipice of some really good captive populations of, let's say, white lips? I've been seeing them all over the place all of a sudden. We're making any big breakthroughs. I just think that when you have the biggest prerequisite for captive breeding, if somebody's got to be trying and if some of these species have talked to you, there hasn't been enough people actually even bothering to try. More people trying, more people will be successful. White lips are another one that are, that's not an easy species to breed. They're going to be a bit high strung and they're one of the more difficult ones. I think it's more on the more difficult side to breed. White lips especially and stuff. I think if you don't have healthy animals and something like a white lip or everything's wild caught by and large, and there's very little category that's been done, mostly we're starting with like, you know, wild caught babies. That's a case scenario. You've got to have healthy animals and they've got to be housed correctly. You've got to be, not only that, the last thing that's almost the hardest one to get, they've got to be kind of in the possession of someone who knows if they can do it. I mean, we've all known, we've all known about many names. We all call it the sake of people that have fallen in this category, where they're kind of a right snake, wrong keeper kind of a thing, or ideal care of whatever, the perfect, beautiful specimen, the excellent chance researchers in captivity is owned by somebody who doesn't know about it. You know, because they were the one who had the money to buy it, but they weren't the one that had to do just to figure out how to free it and stuff. And you see a lot of projects that go right in the toilet because they were owned by, you know, the wrong person, basically. There's a lot of fault, you know, rare species, and there have been more projects and very species that I've seen that just never went anywhere, because frankly, they were putting the wrong hands. They were not putting the wrong hands. They just serendipitously ended up in the wrong person collection, and that person, you know, made poor choices, and, you know, you know, I could never want to go on. There's one I really want to say right now, but I won't, but if he just, like, do things like that, then he just kind of, you know, it's not a carpet for the record. I'm not trying to, not even talking about a carpet vibe. I'm just a python morph, but never going to establish this thing. We had a lot of potential, and it seems like they had something, and you never heard nothing about it. That was the case of, you know, well, this thing, you know, when the animal was first kind of unveiled to the public, it was already, like, large, like, already a large adult, and then, like, and I talked to this pretty soon individual, and they briefly considered just kind of sending it to me out alone, and which would have been, like, better, because I'm sure they'd probably be available by now, but they made it very way they got to, oh, what do we need to pick for? We're out to do this ourselves, right, and, like, great. Then you see a picture of it, like, two years later, still no babies. It was all your long-sense red debris, you know, initially, and it's, like, all of a sudden, it's, like, nine feet long, and just, you know, kind of, you know. So huge, just like, and you think, and it's living in a fish tank with a screen top, and it's, like, a picture of a snake out of somebody's front yard, and they named it, and they're, you know, just like this. Everything you could possibly, like, this is not the right person for this project. It's, like, and you'll never, it's a morph that will never become established, because the one animal that carries whatever the stereotype is, kind of, now literally five times bigger than it ever should have allowed the kids. You're never going to breathe. It's probably dead like that, kind of. It's always that, the argument that Crossfield's mind that's, like, it less is more, imagine how much more and more would be, you know, kind of a... You can get more eggs. If a 700-gram male will breathe, great, then a 7,000-gram male is going to have, like, super sperm, right? No, it just sits around and doesn't breathe inside when it's five years old. That's what it's... You know, you don't... Trying to... They honestly don't understand that the, kind of, nuances of the physiology of these things. You get, there is such a thing as too big, and you see, time and time again, they push past or the natural, kind of, size, or the limits, but, you know, what would be advisable, and then the result is that they just don't have a breathe, and they don't live very long, and then opportunity lost. Yeah. Those are just a bit around like that. I can think of so many awesome things, you know. You ever seen a pie-balled annulated three-baller? No. They existed... You ever see pictures of the pie-balled emerald three-bows? No. There were three... This was 25 years ago. Three pie-balled emerald three-bows were born to a grounded female imported for a wild man. And they were probably bought like a ball python. This big block is a white on an emerald three-bow. There were three of them in the letter. All of them died. Mom died. Nobody ever got anything good. And, you know... Oh. There were different ones with tons of that kind of stuff. Morks that were clearly would have been something but just for whatever reason didn't live, didn't get established, were in the wrong hand. Never bred. You know, kind of all went away. But sometimes, unfortunately, it's because people think they just push things too hard. And like, oh, I had to get this thing to grow really fast so they can make a lot of babies and they push something too hard and break it. Oh. That's unfortunate. That's it. Yeah. Damn. Oh, well. That's it. Let me think of those things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What about... This goes back to the feeding thing real quick. But Nick, have you... I heard... I think it was on GTP Keep a Radio where Buddy was talking about feeding babies at different times. Have you ever had any experience with that? Like, you know, speeding at specific times or you just go whenever you have time to do it? Oh, it's hard to explain. What was the hypothesis that you're getting a better feed response at different times? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he would feed... I can't remember if it was daytime or night. I think it was daytime. Like, he was having... I think the thought was is that for getting Kondros to go, they were feeding them at night and it turns out that by accident he did it during the day and he got a better feeding response and therefore got, you know, more of the hatchlings going. Have you ever had an experience with that, with pythons or carpets or... I mean, it's a bit counterintuitive. So, I mean, to make a... I think a pretty impressive kind of sample size, you know, that's... I mean, it's possible, but I mean, they all pythons are effectively not turnal ambush predators. They don't do anything in the day. They're just hanging out, hiding under a rock or a tree hole with them where... wait until about an hour after the lights go out, and then they start looking for some of these. You're thinking about some of these. So, you know, in the time when they're... I generally feed everything at night. About an hour after, in the dark though, I think I will have left while I go out there, ginormous buckets will throw them out of the mice. It's hot water and I start going out of the line. I mean, if you're primarily hunting, you know... I mean, in the dark, what they're seeing is the heat signature given off by warm blooded spray and everything. And if that's, you know, really, really hot frozen out in a really dark room, you can see this giant heat signature. It really gets them worked up. It's worked great with the boreal stuff, which boreal stuff, you know, I'm going to breathe a lot of chondros, because I have a lot of frustration with the chondros community. I love the tomatoes. I just can't deal with them. I just can't deal with them. It's all I can do to deal with the carp itself. I mean, that's when that is the whole of the kettle of fish and that's the whole different community people. I love the tomatoes. What are you talking about? They're just a green snake on a stick. Yeah. They're not special at all in any way. And the problem I've got with the chondro community in large is they kind of have this idea that because it's a green, and it's just on a stick, but that makes it special. I think it's a green pie that's on a stick and then on a floor, beyond that, it's really not terribly different. And they just, I don't know, they overtake everything and then they get a lot of completely wrong information. It's like kind of believed to be gospel. It's just so completely not true that you can't be like a sandwich woman upstream. It's like you have a whole, and it's not everybody. There are a lot of in-light peepers, especially in the last number of years. People are sort of like, "Huh, these are really tiny snakes that are all. They're not supposed to be a thousand grams." But see, all these just like horribly enormous slices. Just literally, they just ruined the animal because it's got two thousand grams green tree pipe on them. You see it all the time. It's like just crazy. I mean, if you look at the natural size of the green tree part, like a two thousand man chondro is equivalent to like a twelve hundred pound student being. Like that is not normal at all to get twelve hundred pound food. But as long as you just want to say, it's like, you know, it's odd. I don't really see it that much. It's just sort of lying to get big and all this kind of nonsense. It's like, you know, in that case, they should be. They don't do a lot, and they should never get bigger than a mouth. Ever. You don't come to the meat that you're at. You already wrecked it. You know, it's already a bit too big. And you can't shrink it, and I just, it's like just, it's talking to a lot, not all of them. We get, I have friends that keep a lot of chondros and they're, you know, some of those guys know what they're doing. It's not how I mean, it's making me like, they're all much naked groups or something, but it's not certainly not the case. But they're a fair number. Just, it's like you're just banging your head in the wall. It's like, like these are little tiny snakes. They're like four hundred grams soaking wet. They're supposed to lay eight or ten eggs, and that's it. I mean, they're not supposed to, and they wonder why the ginormous snakes are five times bigger than they ever should have been allowed to get. Like 50 eggs going one baby hatchet. And then the snake is dead when it's like eight years old. They all die young. It's because they're not supposed to be, they're not ever supposed to be that big. I've got to see, I don't think she's going to go this year. A little will mean a female. Ryan Young produced, she is 11 years old, 11 years old. If she goes, it'll be her third clutch at 11 years old. I mean, those guys try to farm an 11 year old chondro. She tried to find one that was invented in the 1990s, or 2004 model of your chondro. It's very difficult to find any chondroes over ten years old. I mean, they're out there, but by and large, most of them the shit they've had before that, for the reason. So they've got way too big and sad. And it's just this thing, that female line, she is 480 grams at 11 years old and is a multi-time proven reader. And she's still under 500 grams. That's all the bigger they're supposed to be. That's more like they don't want to accept their little tight snakes. They're literally anterigious, I think. I mean, yeah, they're just a little, I mean, they're not... I brought a male weight 248 grams, so a female weight 350 grams. 350 grams, like nine perfect eggs, however, infertility. Because back up normal, we production five. There's the little tiny things, the male's eating hoppers with the ability. Just barely weaned bites. Right. I can't. I love this mix, but I just, you know, I don't know. I can't do everything, so I'm just kind of trying to limit my frustration. I really like locality folk in church, which is quite a bit too, but the same kind of thing. It's like, gee, if you don't have all the hybrid carpet pythons and this is my target, I'm storing all that nonsense out. It's so frustrating already. It's like, you know, I need to delve into all of the world that has all those same problems and just like this, just leave my mind too much. I did have some clarification on what Buddy was talking about. It was in the dark, they're active and more likely to run. Easier to get a defensive response when you wake them up. So basically he's waking them up and I get a defensive strike. They don't really ever sleep. They don't really ever sleep though, do they? They're kind of always fairly awake or asleep like we are. It's kind of a, I think, how I live. I'm not going to close your eyes and go to sleep. I don't know. You don't really have a wake or you don't have a wake, but it's kind of used like active or inactive really, really to sleep so much. But, you know, I mean, if it works, then, you know, keep doing that. I mean, if that's all for anybody or anything, I mean, I do what I do because it's what's proven to work over a lot of years of doing this for me really well. I have a shock at some of the things that work for other people sometimes. It makes no sense to me at all. I think people, "Oh, I did this and this one. I got a bunch of eggs." And I'm like, "That sounds pretty crazy." But hey, if it works, I mean, it's like, you know, keep doing that, man. You know, something's working for you. What works for one person is not actually work for all people. And you can't really ever make hard and fast rules about anything with this, you know. All you can do is make them general, kind of, speak only in general terms, but you make a lot of rules. There's always exceptions to everything. I don't know. I never really, I mean, you clean cages all day and feed at night. That's just when I've been doing it for years. That's worked out really well. But I think, you know, now it's like well-established babies. I see them all, you know, whenever, because it's not, and they're just going to eat anyway. So, I don't feed my adults at night. I mean, it's like, but I find out that better success with little babies and stuff about one hour after life's gone. But maybe I'll try it. Kind of those are a little... Yeah, they're, I'd say they're harder. They're exactly like Amazon tree bodes, which I also read those. And they're like, it's a little bigger stupid. I don't really understand, like, how these things even eat in the wild. It's like they can have like the clumsy, slow, strike. It'd be so hard to, you know, like, be in the head of a thing. I think you need to get you to buy anything, it's like you're just, I don't know. How is your species not dead yet? Yeah, I don't understand. It's like it's gangly, awkward, super slow, moving, hard to get, I mean, I don't... I mean, obviously it works because they exist, but it's like some of these things are... if it's a bit frustrating. And last time... How would baby rough skills compare to baby conduits? I don't know. It's never happening. I'll go check this if I get eggs here real quick while I go to Amazon. Alright. Yeah. I got very low expectations. It's never really fun doing things. That's why I should ever get like, man, nothing yet. You know something's going to come out of that female. Something's coming out. We're past the point of wondering if something's going to leave something inside there or several something. So she's going to deposit something because it's going to be good or bad, I don't know. I tend to be a bit pessimistic, so... Yeah, so why? Everything's going to lay slugs until I see the eggs. Exactly. Yeah. That'd be pleasantly surprised and completely devastated. Yeah. But she's grabbing it. I mean, something's coming out of her, but hopefully... Cool. I don't have a lot of good. I don't have a lot of confidence or something. It's pretty good. It's like, if you do this a long time, you guys are probably going to have questions where you kind of... You kind of know what you're looking for. You're looking for an animal to, you know, how strong is the ovulation? You know, how, you know, the pre-obulatory swelling, how kind of... You kind of maybe observe them enough, you know, and like you kind of watch half of the ovulation and pre-mesh head. How are they progressing? You know, are they gaining weight in the right spots and everything? And you kind of, you know, you kind of have a good idea of what you're looking at getting and stuff. I'm not getting like a lot of good vibes from what I've seen so far, but you know, they're wrong before. I'd love to be wrong this time. I'd love to. I will breathe those things, but... I hope you do this, you know, more of them. It's like... No, but I don't will be. But they're pretty... I think I have a very poorly motivated male. Uh, and stuff. He just doesn't seem to be interested in doing the job. Uh, but that happens sometimes. I'll think he's asking me the thing he wants. The only thing that happens is the thing you want to breathe the most of, isn't it? It's never like the thing you got five. It's always a thing you breathe. Yeah. That's definitely what I'm going to get there. And I knew we'd consider keeping rough-scale size, like, adults, kind of like chondras where they don't get huge, right? Well, you know, that's another one that I don't think there's not... Most everything we know is from cats and specimens, but you can be completely... Well, I mean, if you were to look back ten years ago, I had to have a big green tree python to be. It said, "Oh, 1500 grams is something completely not really true, is it?" You know, so it's... What is... You know, how many wild specimens of, uh, rough-scale python are even known that we're... And you're not very... A handful. Yeah. You have really catchers red ones, but what are their natural size in the wild? That's what really matters and stuff. And it'd be kind of... It'd be pretty far off the mark where you're talking just purely based on catfish specimens. Well, I don't know. I mean, they're close to... They're basically... You know, they're related to carpets, but they're probably a little bit more culturally related to that. They're conjurative, although there were the more recent papers that kind of put them a little closer to carpets and conjurative. But they're in that group, I mean, by the way. They are... If you look at the sides of their egg, it's like exactly between a conjurative egg and a carpet egg. It's like the right smack in the middle, in terms of egg size, everything. So it's kind of... you know, it's like it's clearly mature. And, you know, it's 500 grams for the male. And they're mature, right about... Am I even making me mature at, right about in between the size of a... You know, might be a little smaller than I would read a carpet at. Males probably, you know, live in the same, but not by a lot. So that's something they're in that wheelhouse or somewhere. I don't know. Madam and Brad and enough numbers for long enough to really know. They're all the neat, lucky-year-old catfish red brush tail-fights on the round to know. I'm sure they are capable of achieving 20, 30-year life spans, like just about all pythons are longer even. But they haven't been... no one's been breathing long enough to really know yet. And things like making animals, you know, larger than they're supposed to get. That will take a toll on life expectancy. We haven't been breathing long enough in captivity to really know and stuff. And people will... so it's entirely possible that there actually should be smaller than people think they are. Because there's an apple on there that's about having other species and stuff. So we get this notion that they're supposed to be 5 feet long and we just make them 5 feet long. So you might be able to get them 5 feet long. And maybe 5 feet long will even breathe. Will they live 30 years to 5 feet long? Do wild ones get that big? I don't know. My first trip to Australia, I got actually a... got a handle. One of the original wild-caught adult males. One of the founder ones, part of the captive population. It was during the rooftop part. Hi. That's cool. From his head, it was maybe 4 feet long. Maybe with a giant head on it. But I don't know how big was it when they caught it. I don't know how big was it when they caught it. Was it oriental? It's such a remote area. It's like you're going to see a whole lot of field collection of these things or data from that. So Mitchell Falls is a pretty hard place to get to. Yeah. Do you think that we're eventually going to start seeing things like, I know the Owen Kelly project. She's take out one collection of the ground. Yeah, I'll add a handful of babies. I think that given the long view, and the long view can be pretty long, you'll see all of that stuff. I mean, did you ever think you could see Rupka Vythons? Never. Now, I'll buy you all of Vythons. I'll find him for Rupka. No. And all those things into the United States perfectly legally. I mean, it's so... I think, you know, given the long trajectory, I think you will see Owen Kelly Vythons. At my house, eventually, it might be 25 years from now. I can't imagine it's going to be very soon. But it's like, given the way the world works and everything, it just seems like, you know... They won't, I mean, they'll end up in all the Australian zoos and Australian keepers and stuff. And then foreign zoos will get them. And some foreign zoos, it's perfectly legal for them to sell zoos or flesh, and stuff. And we've seen that a bunch of times. It's eventually some kind of way, and I don't profess to have any knowledge of the way or how. There certainly aren't any enough cat-to-born ones in existence. But at some point, 20 years from now, I'll probably have some. We all will, probably. It just seems that... That doesn't seem to be in particular. They don't seem to be terribly difficult to breathe. Because they did write twice now, because with people... The article is written in late, don't matter. They keep thinking about the first time they were read legally. It's like, well, they were read by Peter Kraut a long time ago. And for you to see babies from them, I don't know what the legal distribution of those animals were. But they were bred. And these are wild-caught adults who are breeding, which is typically more difficult. Then they're pretty juvenile to raise them in captivity. So they seem to be willing to reproduce. So they'll be around at some point, but it might be a charity. They'll hold your breath, I guess. But... Where do they fit in the Python family tree? Where do they fit in the Python family tree? And on what paper you read, I guess. The P and A is a wonderful tool for kind of defining answers these questions. But it really is only good at answering whatever the question you asked it was, very specifically. And depending on who's doing the asking and what exactly the question was, you kind of get... Not all papers that analyze Australian Python genetics genes and everything are... They're not necessarily testing the same genes. They're not necessarily coming up with the same results and stuff. But a lot of the sample size makes a huge difference. I mean, there was... They were... They invented times viewed as being basically intermediate between the scrub complex and the carpet complex based on morphology and some molecular stuff. And, I think, more recent papers placed them in simalia with the scrub Python. It's a little more bludgy there. I don't know. These things are fluid and never changing. I think there's not really been... And one problem is like, you know, how many genetically different... The six specimens of only Python could they possibly have tested? You know, like, what's your sample size? It's got to be just spinnably small. I mean, and the smaller sample size is, the higher your mark, the less integrity your results have. That's the best chance with what you have. But if you've only got a couple of specimens, it's probably not like a hundred different wild individuals. You get a real decent sampling, you know. You really not. You're looking at the tiny number of individuals, you know, and that's really it. So, I don't know. They were... Initially, they were described as being carpet Python. The first person to look at them was... It's not a pretty criminal Australian herpetologist. Oh, that's a carpet Python. Like, it's literally taught up in the carpet bible. So, they're... I don't know. We'll see. I don't think that they're necessarily... The book's not closed on those, so to speak. Genetic... Yeah. Well, ironically, I guess. Finally, genetically, I guess. I think every year, and every paper that comes about and happens, they're all using molecular tools to kind of define these things. We get a little bit closer. If you look at the... If you ever look at the kind of a history of taxonomy, a Australian Python, and Python's in general, they didn't really appear. You don't even know how to take some of these solutions, just like it's... The amount of things, how much moving around and everything has been done. But if you look at how it's structured now, it's pretty... It's totally solid. It's getting... You know, if you look at all the light, the species, they clearly belong together. Don't they? Yeah. Yeah. They actually... They get very clearly belong together. That's from Python's clearly belong in the same genus. It's the outlier species, I suppose. But it's starting to... You're getting a lot more concords between the genetic side of it and the morphological side of it. It still is pretty obvious. I mean, but... Whereas other works in previous generations, and even not all that long ago, have to make them pretty strange conclusions. How would you ever have had... At one point, virtually all the stuff was in light. It's like... Oh, it's all Australian, which is just absurd. I mean, it's... And then there is an annoying spread in taxonomy, an annoying community, and I just can't. There's the only one who's annoyed by it. And then you get a lot of these papers that are written. They're very well written, very well researched. They just go to the extremes of the sorrow and chemical... And doing everything exactly... I mean, exactly what you want. I mean, extremely thorough work. They tell you a conclusion that is really obvious based on it, and then they stop just short of actually making a change. Yeah, and then they don't do... They don't talk to finish line with it. And I never understood that. It's almost like they're... They're like leaving themselves a little wibberish, so if anybody else later kind of with something contradictory, they can't say they were long or something. It's like they're afraid to just... I'll say this, hey, so to speak. It's like, you know... Oh, I was looking at the 2003, the Congo paper, that completely showed, irocutively, the chondros are at least two different species, maybe four, but four or two, where there's enormous genetic distinction between them and everything. And then it didn't stain them. They just didn't do it. They're just like, oh, but we won't. Or, you know, sorry that... And we're done. At the same time, the triplets on paper are on the exact same time. I can choose something once you've got it on one. You know, it's formally split off. Let's do that, but it's not a... And not an... And hell, the hair flies on and everything. But then it says, basically, right in there, yeah, the part of it should be different species, but we're not going to do it. And it's like, well... Otherwise, you get problems, you know, Ray Hoser goes in there, like, oh, we did all work and they didn't name it. It's like, they just made it. I don't understand the... I don't understand the... What's the fear of doing that? Or a great paper excited a number of times, and things like that, published is a... We're all in McDonald's in 2018, which is kind of a general overview of all Australian pythons and their real estate relationships. They're up. It's a fantastic paper. And it says right in there, oh, yeah, the, you know, leo python and puffer tubeless should be anonymized, and then you have to go with the older, which is puffer tubeless is the older term. So then all whitelits would be in the puffer tubeless, because there isn't sufficient, you know, molecular evidence of support there, being separate. And again, and then it doesn't do it now. But then it doesn't do it. Why? It doesn't do it. You made the case, you proved your argument, then just do that. Just move them formally to anonymize them. You may have found them with puffer tubeless. I mean, that's the point of thought. But they don't understand why the words are used, you know. If they're nearly suspected, they're not made of very compelling case to do that. I just put it on the... It doesn't make any sense. But you see a lot of that. Any more... The more kind of very... And these educators, whether they'll make a big move on less evidence. You know, it's a... With a smaller sample size and a less compelling argument, they will make a new genius or whatever, you know, you know, stuff. It's a... I don't know. But I don't... I don't know. I'm not hankering to be attacked on this or anything. It just is a bit frustrating and stuff. Keeping the stroke life on their own genius, is a huge known painter. I mean, you also get a weird chamber. You probably noticed this. The people, the academics who are writing the papers, they're not people keeping snakes. They're like literally... They're testing samples with shed skins and this and that. And it's like they come to these really weird conclusions. Like, well, like in the... The Condro paper in 2003, it's like, you know, refers to you in a title of cryptic diversity, which they're saying, like, wow, these... You're so shocked that these things are genetically so different because we can't tell the part when we look at them. It's like, really? You can't tell... On a root condro from a diocondro? It's like a... Like, are you looking at it? Are you... Do you have stereoscopic vision and eyes that face forward? I mean, it's like... I mean, you can't tell apart. I mean, it's crazy. Or do you like this paper about... There's a great life paper in 2003 that... I'm sorry, that one of us has done. It's like a good paper. And it truly shows that, you know, faucets are really two different snakes and that the western faucets are in northern territory are more closely related to macclops, five times when we are the Queensland faucets, which is weird because they look just like the Queensland faucets when we're getting, like, a macclops five times. And then at the end of this... Well, really the hard time can't tell these macclops apart from these water pythons, like, are you crazy? What are you talking about? It's like, I don't know, one's green and one's black and one has a one in the head structure, the skeleton structure, their sides. They live in different places. They tell their parents, like, what is the same about them? I mean, they're maybe closely related genetically, but really you can't tell apart. I mean, it's... Again, it's like, how hard do you guys look? Have you ever seen one? I mean, you've got to... You've got to kind of wonder sometimes, like, it's a friend that I won't mention and he's an academic and everything. That's why I still talk to him once in a while. So, this guy's like, you know, even like, discuss the intimate details of having seen anatomy and it's not anything you can imagine, but couldn't keep a snake alive, it's a big one. You know, it's like, it's just this... I certainly believe that, you know, well, I'm very much a fan of the academic literature and stuff and I read everything that comes out. I mean, you do gain some insight into these animals by keeping them and then reading out and everything and interacting with them, but you don't gain by just testing their DNA. You don't... You know, like, I could have told you that the root cudro that the southern cudro's loaded cudro's are very different snakes. Without having to deemate that, prove it, pretty different snakes. You're going to be as pretty obvious. You ever kept them, but these things... So, it's just going to be getting from actual keeping things and stuff. There's nuances like, oh, you know, I could have... I have a friend from around a younger town for almost 20 years, I remember him talking about it. He's been arguing with me. He's not arguing with me. He doesn't agree with him, but reading pythons and the white lips should be the same Jesus and everything. He's based on all these morphological similarities and behavioral similarities that you don't get if you're just testing samples and everything, like... Like, in fact, it rings in the white lips and the only two pythons that literally cough up hairballs like a cat. Yes. They were literally emails and regurgitates what looks like a grey sury turd in the cage. Yeah, really? That was... Yeah, they cough up hair... It's the weirdest shit when you don't know it's coming. You're like, what's the thought behind why it does that? What's the thought behind why it does that? Well, I mean, if you don't want to pass it through, if you go through the... Have developed the mechanism to regurgitate, it probably doesn't, you know, it doesn't take care of the individual. You're just, you know, laughing. You never know that. It's in the jar, yeah. What's the thought behind why it does that? What? What's the thought behind why... No, no, no. Well, I mean, if you don't want to pass it through, if you go through the... Have developed the mechanism to regurgitate, it probably doesn't... Care doesn't even agree with you very well. Or whatever. Right. Depends on their diet, I guess, in a while that they are eating. I don't know if they're not eating rodents that much or what. I don't know. Yeah, I mean, that's like... There's not exactly been a lot of field studies of gut content with whitelist 5,000 or eating 5,000 for a while. I mean, there's plenty of things slightly available. They might come in, feel like we need them in a cage of rings. But it's not like there's a lot of study going on. We know a lot less about a lot of these things that people realize. I mean, there's a few species of 5,000 that have been studied to death. And it's thanks to a few people. I mean, it really is. The ones... I would say in terms of the academic literature, the best known 5,000s are like all because of Richard Shy. There's just some phenomenal work with diamond python. You know, we did a series of 5 papers there that are phenomenal. I'll really ground breaking steps in a series of 3 papers on Inbracada. They're fantastic. They did more papers on water python than I could catch. So if you look at what we know about the light, it's just, you know, I crashed out about Northern Territory water python. Not much about anything else. It's all because of one guy's tremendous body work on these species because a lot of these vary little. It's surprisingly little. Right. So... I don't know. What do they even wild? I don't know. I mean, if they were gestating mammal hair, it would kind of sort of imply that they're probably not eating a species on a lot of mammals. Yeah. You wouldn't have a problem. They need to fit their hair out. But that's an assumption. And the assumptions aren't always right. You know, you can't always... Maybe there's another entirely different reason why. I don't know. But that would be what my guess is. Usually things are reasonably self-explanatory, but not always. Right. Yeah. I don't know. There you go. There you go. Research syndrome. We're going to have to go to Indo and research the... I want to go to... Let's all go to Indo now and research the gut contents of white lips. I'm intrigued. Oh, man. That's a part of the one that lives in the wild. Maybe also. We'll see you on the P&G with Mark. Oh, really? Every day and next year. Yeah, I've been talking about it for years. For the longest time, I was like in just such incredibly poor shape that even if you thought I told me you wouldn't survive. Yeah, but you physically... That just breaks the guy down here. So, you're saying this is horrible. You are so decrepitty. It's such a deplorable physical condition that you would not survive the hike up the mountains and look for the bones by the way. Well, thank you, Mark. Thank you. Thank you. And I know I saw that problem. I'm good to go now, but I'm able and, you know, I would love to do that. You never know if you're finding low ones on the way up, so I'd love to get into that region. You know, poking around. They're greater children finding pythons in the wild. Oh, heck yeah. I can't imagine. I don't want to do it. It's hard. It's like they're not easy to get through, though. Just say the least. Not imagine that. Yeah. So, you had mentioned diamond pythons real quick and passing, and I noticed maybe a week ago, you had posted up some. Yeah, I got a few. How are you keeping them? Are you doing anything different? Are you keeping them cooler? What's your approach with them? Of course. You're following your own book? Yeah. So you read the book, have you? I wasn't kidding about that stuff. I mean, it's not just like me counting off the random opinion. That's a lot of things. You know, a lot of times, they don't understand people like old food. They try to stick outside the box. You know, sometimes it's pretty good just to take inside the box. Really? I mean, it's the box. The box is outside the box. As long as there's nothing wrong with the box. In the case of diamond pythons, it's like, well, let's see. There's a whole lot of people that have very similar experiences where they're snakes. They treat them like everything else, and their snakes fall apart when they're seven years old and they die. And they're not a couple of long-term at all. And then you've got a few people that are really successful. The animals are 20 plus years old and they dream like rockwork. And just do what those guys are doing. Well, obviously, they're doing something right. But I'm going to reinvent the wheel. It's like, just figure out that guy's doing over there. He seems to be kicking ass. And then that's what that really comes out of. It's like, what are these guys doing? And then, you know, final science to it. But it was like, well, there's a reason, the rest of it was just figuring out, you know, why are these guys successful where everybody else has taught? And not all that really that complicated stuff. So, yeah, I'm just doing what I mean. I mean, I'm not going to get a lot of people out to me for advice on a lot of these perfectly related stuff, but, you know, I'm not an expert in diving, but I'm keeping and breathing. So what do I do? If I call somebody, I know who is an expert in that. That guy is like, I want to do that. But why would you come up with that? Yeah, it's like, you want to, I want to, you know, it'd be so ridiculous for me to like, you know, oh, I don't need advice from that guy, because I've read these related pieces a little bit more. Yeah, you always want to get knowledge and information from the best source you can. And, you know, I don't know what everything about everything. I'd like to take at this point, I got a little bit about some of this stuff, but I mean, it's all right. In the case of Diamond Python, I'm going to call up the most successful guy and, you know, it's pretty amazing. So with a long term, not in the short term, a short term means nothing. In the long term, with a long proven record, you see what that guy is doing, and why is it, you know, then figure that out. And that seems to be working to find. I'll breed them this year. I've got a pair that I probably could have bred last year, last year, but I'm in no hurry, and stuff. And they never, and they don't need to be in a hurry and everything. I feed them so rarely that I can get to feeding for a long period of time. So I'm like, I can remember to feed them, I mean, because they're not in my snake building, because they really, you know, my snake holding it. You know, low 80s, most of the time, and this time of year, it tends to run a little hotter than that, and stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff, stuff. That's kind of a recipe for long term disasters there. So they're in like, I'm a spare bear with nothing going on, and they're just, they live there. Right. In a very well planted, naturalistic age, and you just buy. Yeah, I think that's the cool way to go with this, guys. Speaking of the book, is there ever going to be a more complete carpet python book? Eight second ones. I have a folder on my computer, just titled, a more complete carpet button on it yet. I don't know that it's a paper wherever it happened, and it would be, that's what it would be called, necessarily, but I would like to do a second edition, but typically that kind of, you know, sell off the first edition before you have printed another edition and stuff, but it's just gone very well and stuff. When they print a book out like that, they're not just printing like a six month supply of books, they're printing like a five year supply of books. Yeah, that's what you're doing. Right. And so, that'll be a decision made. That's not really mind-fizzing. That's, you know, the ego, how much you're involved. That'll be a decision he made and stuff. At one point, there was a conversation from some time ago, like you see, that they gave me the one that there was a definite possibility to do a second edition of the science game and everything. I've got to, you come across little tidbits of this and that, papers and pictures and little bits and pieces and stuff that might be of you. So I just, what I do, I figure out a pretty, I've got a little folder and I'll drop it in there. And I know Justin is the same. I've talked to me about the exact thing, but I can get a little, hang on to that just in case. But there's always like those little things, you know, there's like a picture that screwed up where, you know, there's a mistake and lay out and stuff that's going to be crazy in there. And there's a, you know, Yeah. One has a, it was a technical problem that the, the last fact I did stuff. And there's, you know, there's always like a few things. Like, there's no habitat picture on the eerie giant carpet. Yeah. It's like, there's no, there's no picture of an island thing. France is perfect. You know, it's like, you're just kind of getting into the deadline at the end of it. You're kind of just kind of getting all together to get off the perimeter and everything on time. So there's always, I imagine it's the same with anybody. It's anything. Yeah. And I could, I could relate as far as like recording music. It's like, you know, there would be things that, when I would record music, there would be these things that I would hear and only I would hear. And everybody else would be saying, man, this is the greatest thing ever. And I'd be saying, no, it's not. It could be better. No, I'm not listening to that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I would like to do it. I'd like to do an updated edition. But if you do an update, we can't just be like reprint the old book and throw in a couple of pictures. You got to revisit everything. And just like, hey, there's been, there's been any papers that really change anything taxonomically with regards to carpet type on. There's another, a little bits and pieces and everything. And you know, and stuff that you could, you want to make it as current and updated as you possibly could and stuff. And you need to make it, you know, enough of it we need to be new and different to get people to buy it again. But frankly, so let me get to do it then. Right. I certainly came to do it. I mean, I would, I would like to do it. So we'll see. Possibly, I guess. Cool. I'm ready to get on it in a moment. I don't know why I'm going to kind of get an issue to write another book anyway. I don't know why I could, I don't have enough to do already. But I don't like doing that. It's a long process. The complete olive python. The complete olive python. Did you all like this? There you go. The lightest, this is the, that's a group of needs of books right now. And the problem is like, you know, is there enough interest to warrant doing it. There's very little research. You could write, you could write a whole book on water python, thanks for your shine. But you could really, very difficult on the others. And do you, do you have the Australian lightest? Or are the indoor lightest? Or all the lightest? I mean, what do you, what do you do with that? I mean, it's like, you have a lot of the same problems where you've got that. A paper that clearly shows that, uh, John I and Savo in this were clearly, should be full species. But then it didn't really call the whole species. It was all like, see, you're totally protected. You don't have species. But we're not going to help it. And it's that old thing. But I do that. It's like a bit clearly. And I've got, that went through some, a nice group of cataracts that I had. And they are different. You know, they're different things. That's awesome. I love the done. I like this. I'm getting published something on the lice of genius. I don't know what one that will say. Suddenly you've got to do it. And a lot of times you kind of like, well, if I don't do it, who's going to do it? It's like you kind of wait for him for, waiting for someone else to write a really cool lice article or book or something. It hasn't really panned out in the last 20 years for me. So I don't know. Yeah, it was kind of like waiting for somebody to do a podcast on a carpet python. So it didn't really pan out for us either. Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people are just, you know, like they want to see these certain things, but they don't want to, and they're just like waiting around for somebody else to do it. It's like, I'm just going to grab it by the ball and do it, man. It's like, that's really, if you think something is worthwhile and something is worth doing, and something is needed in our hobby or industry or whatever, then it's like, but waiting around for, you know, for somebody else to do it, if you think it's important, get out there and do the one he does it. If more people did that, I mean, it'd be a lot more getting done, wasn't there? You know? If you think it's important, I mean, I'm like, you know, rather than just endlessly pontificating about it, but I don't know if you'll be doing that. I mean, so now a lot of these things, you know, rare species and things. I've always briked that people will put an emphasis on. It's like, all right, well, I guess I'll put my money in my taste, face, or my mouth is. Yeah, I'll do it. Right. Nobody's got to do it. Yeah. It's like, I'm a little bit me, right? You know, I've got all manner of strange and, you know, sitting here now, you're very amazing. I just finished 50 adults. But it's like the one hall. It's like, wait on now. It's 80. It's the best. One's on. I always just flash it up. It's visioned the 18s up on top of, like, juvenile stuff, but that's one wall down. Oh, I've been doing this now. I'm turning on the, uh, wall of a four-year-old. But to eat the key missiles in here, Pan-Barras. There you go. Oh, the Pan-Barras. It's just a snake. I love the hay. I mean, I like him, but I can't figure out why I like him because it's just horrible, horrible animals. Yep. Yep. Put it here. A bunch of Amazon 3-Barras. 10-4-5-0. Another rough scale. Oh, some crowds, rich and fresh. Those are pretty cool. Yeah. And they're not too, too, too horrible. It's hard. Yeah, I kind of suck you up anyway. How are the helmet hairs still in? I don't know. Wait for you to send me a mail. There you go. I have a female that I had raised since it was two and a half feet long, and it is ready to go. You can get it doing great. I've got another female that is nowhere near big enough, but she was like a baby that was just past being a red. She was so small as she came in. I've had her. Oh, you're going to get her. I got her in 2012. So I've had her for three years, and she was like a, not much. She had to be like 50 grams when I got her, 50-60 grams. I'm definitely going to raise her up. Okay. She's doing well. They never seem to have like a healthy pair of those things, you know, at the same time. So there's like her kind of a male. I got a female. I don't got a tater or something. I don't have a male at the last minute, you know. There are three. It's not only you always get to sex with like something like you're close, but something still just missing. Here it's in the manner of mail. Come on. You got like what? Four. Jesus. No. The female died. I only have the female. Oh, no. It's right. They do that. Yeah, they do that. They do that. Stupid. Alma Herod. Yeah. I only have the female. Which I've had since 2009. I've had this female since 2009. Was it the girl? I would just like. No. I would just like to have like a 1.1 that I could actually put together and at least have the attempt. It's always like something. He's the girl of sideways before you ever even get to put him together. Alright. Yeah. It's frustrating. It's not species. So, you're in the audience getting Nick mutton to how in the hair a boy just said it. You think that'd be easy. It's like I've got the, I've got the 1, the female I've raised from a juvenile. And he's like, my, he's like, oh, that's not large. She's bigoted the legs in my estimation and it's certainly holding us. I've had her since, I've had her since, I got her as a young, young, import, import four years ago. So, you're up here. Do you think that the secret to imported animals getting them at a really young age? I think with this, I think in a general sense, when you're talking about breeding pythons or anything, wild-caught adults are always harder to breed than juveniles. Animals that have either borne in a box or have written or raised their whole lives in a box, they don't really know much else. They're just, they're not put off by that and they generally reproduce that. Right. So, a lot of pythons, if you get a wild-caught adult male, males will eventually usually come around because males make charges like male, anything. And males even, queens generally kind of want to get it on, doesn't it? Yeah, so males, given enough time, males will eventually breed in captivity. Even wild-caught adult females will often breed in captivity, but they don't want to populate. Getting a female to ovulate, if it was, if it was collected out of the wild after the point of sexual maturity, the vast majority of female wild-caught females that were collected after maturity will never ovulate in captivity, for whatever reason. They might acclimate, they'll eat, they might even grow a bit, they'll breed, but getting that lap at the ovulation seems to be really difficult. And stuff. And up all the pythons, the scrub pythons are the worst for that. So, if you get a wild-caught adult female, how rare are you basically, just like a hood ornament, it's probably never going to be too much. Which is unfortunate, males, you know, but male-caught contribution reproduction is obviously much more literate than it is with females. So, it is, you know, getting a captive with a high stroke species, like a scrub python, I mean, it's even more important than it is in other places. So, but, you've got to keep it like a way. Yeah, I know. If nobody tries, if no one keeps, people don't keep putting effort in, then you know we're never going to get it. Somebody is going to do this. It's basically the only species of python that's never been bred in captivity. And not alone, you think that's quite a, you know, the world's first captive breeding. That's a pretty big deal, you know. And obviously, it isn't easy to use. I do think that a lot of it is, how many people are even trying? You know, it's not like there's like hundreds of people every year trying to breed home a hair python. You're like, how many people in the United States, in 2015, do you think you even have a healthy adult pair that they put to places and try to breed? I know two. I know two people. They had a pair that were healthy, adults, and they actually had a chance. I know. Yeah. No, not at all. That ain't much, is it? You know, it's like, if you're, that is not a lot. I mean, it's, the more people you have trying, the more you go, you'll invariably have a more success. I don't know what the numbers do. I tell you, those captive red ones, whenever they occur, will be gold, because there you get that first generation is the hardest. Here's the first one. Those first generation captive red ones are informed in a plastic tub or whatever they don't know nothing else. They will be invariably just a little bit easier to breed than their character. Yeah. Yeah. Who is it? I mean, you've got a couple guys that have been marking Phil over there. Sergeant. Yeah, friend. They, I mean, keep plugging away, and now you've got two guys that produce these things. Several years running, multiple years running, different animals. It's like, not always necessarily with like the greatest fertility range and hatch rates, but getting some babies with frequency from different animals, you're getting close, obviously, they're on to something. I mean, if it was one time, one snake, one or two babies, but it's like year in year out, every year, you know, different animals, maybe you don't get the stats clutch, but consistently getting some Bible offspring. I mean, clearly on the right half, you know, and that's, you know, and those guys take a lot of hard work and perseverance to keep plugging away at it. So now that's exciting. I mean, it's finally turned that figure it out, but nobody's ever going to figure it out. Nobody's trying. Yeah. I think a lot of people just, yeah, yeah. So they all, you know, nobody can breathe bones like, well, what are you guys doing to do about it? It's like, well, keep it in the game. Get them scared in the game, you need to try, man. More people tried. They're getting more like that. But there's very few people trying some of these things. I get all manner of strange species, my own self, and I'm getting really obsessed with Candoya. I don't know why, because I eat a lot of weird lizard eating boas and self specific apparently. Oh, you're talking Owen's language now. There it is. I love them, but I love them. Did you give me different nights? What's up? Awesome. But they are, you know, I mean, one of the things we saw, Captain Bread, Candoya, anything. Almost never. No. I mean, virtually never. There are people who have bred the, I have to capture the U.S. Captain Bread, you know, white-faced ground bones. But other than that, you don't see a lot of the Captain Breading to tree bones, which were basically fun available because nobody bred them 15 years ago, the last time they were actually imported. Mm-hmm. Then something got imported and now they're not being allowed to be exported again. So you had like a six-month window where a few shipments of them came in and they got a bunch of them. Those are awesome snakes and the small, corporeal, super docile. I mean, they're pretty cool. Yeah. Somebody's got a... There are several animals out there that I want them to get into the country and then be established in a breeding program. So I think they're awesome. I think the dragon rat snakes, the eyelash bow is a bunch of really weird off-the-cuff stuff. So I'm hoping when they become available, you could be the one who does it. I mean, it's like... No, I will. I never stood that whole, like, people that, you know the bad, I'm talking about it and you hear it all the time. People are like, "Oh, they want to wait on the sidelines until someone else gets picked with the camp with the import." Someone else does the work, figures it all out, and then they can just buy the Captain Bread and the product. They're like, "Man, this is dope for it." Man, it's like, "Man, if everybody does that, that's why I wanted something around." Because everybody takes the "wait and see" approach, instead of just going for it, they take something important and go for it. I mean, it's like they try it. I mean, whoops, wrong with that. Yeah. There's a whole lot of stuff like that and stuff. I mean, I don't have adults, not adults, but adults in near-adult groups of every species of canned oil that you can get. I've got, you know, Tazmai, Paulson, I, Sharon, I mean, Sharon, I've got, you know, a big Renee, I've got all that stuff, anything. At least five of everything. Because we're glad to be talking about Captain Bread and how Mahara, a practically never-er, or Captain Bread and my Shrubo. It's a pretty neat mix, really, but you just don't ever notice. Because, no, but it's a big reason, it's not like a waltz for you, Captain, because nobody's bothered to try. And stuff, and that's kind of, you know, kind of sad, really. It's important, let's laugh in the day. If you take something important, there's something you should be breading, Captain, it's free, Captain. Go get it. Don't make sure nobody else is doing it. I mean, if you think it's important, do it, you know, and then it'll get everybody here to give themselves anything. It's worth a while to do it, and then they go for it, man. Everybody, and there's so many, there'd be a lot more species available to us if more people will do that. And conversely, if you see somebody did breed some rare things, support that guy. Don't buy the Wild Caught and Ford buy the guy's Captain Bread once. Yeah, right. That helps incentivize things a little bit, you know. So some of the stuff, like, you know, we can't go there, I don't have the choice but to buy Wild Caught. Because they are not breeding captivity at all. I mean, mostly cages. I did buy a friend in Minnesota who produced a huge litter of the White Bay Poulton eye groundbows. I bought two pears and everything from, and they're great. I did get a couple of Wild Caught ones to add to the diversity, but I bought 2.2 Captain Bread White and they're off. Yeah, yeah, I got the, I got the pair of baby golds that are Captain Born and Bread, and I'm excited for them to raise them up. Who produced those ones? Uh, Steve, tell us. Oh, he actually bred them? [Laughs] No, I think that's least wrong. [Laughs] Well, you know, there's been a bunch of Wild Caught that came in and as usual, some of them are gravels. I mean, and so... Yeah, he had a pair and they did breed him. He had a, I know his female was tiny. I think he only had like six, seven eggs out of the clutch. So... Hey, baby brother. No, Steve, he's the last kid. I met him. I mean, he was not the best at being like, he heard him slight. I just, you see, skin-forted females are grabbing with their famous... You do. ... coming in and dropping 50 babies. He's like, "Whoa!" Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, he actually, I want to say that his female was so small, she couldn't even boil the eggs. So... They're blowing their whole egg, so... [Laughs] No, I was talking about... We're talking about all these white lips. Gold-faced white lips. Oh, white lips. I was talking about white lips. What are you talking about? What was late? How do you... How do you... How do you... That was a... ... basically gone to shit. [Laughs] If you're done, make it up now. Get up now. Jesus Christ. Man, I believe in you. [Laughs] I'm sitting there, I want a 4-0 cage left and it's my gold-to-0 fan of our the late to clutch. And this is the meanest snake I've ever owned. And that says a lot. - One point I have 54 adult... - Oh, wow. One point I have 54 adult... One point I have 54 adult shrimp python. This is the meanest thing I've... It's just looking at me. I'm like, "I'm not even gonna clean you." I'm just gonna... The only way I can really clean is to do the old school cleaning feature. Or you hand them like a rat. - Right. - And while they're killing the hell on that rat, you quickly, really fast cleaning the cage. - Right. - They do a lot of things. - Right. They're gonna use a cleaning feed to her and one of the other Santa bars. They're just... It's... They're just a jerk. - Right. - No reason. Why are you so mad at me? I clean up after you. I feed you. Why do you hate me so much? [Laughs] My goshies is like... I got a never imported baby, but they were still red. I mean they were red right out of the egg. I think they were for grabbing female. I mean they were like right out of the egg, import. It's never even been fed before. They don't know anything but living here. And they just... They just spied me. That's good. - Huh? - What are you gonna do, I guess? I think it judges the character or something. - [Laughs] - We're almost out of time. But what I would ask you is, what was your... - What was your... [Beep] - Anticipated clutch season. - I was just making a clutch this year. - Yeah. - Oh, I don't know. It was always things like... You got a bunch of hit-out vinyl all the five pounds. They're getting ready to hit. But they're just gonna look normal. - Oh, sweet! [Laughs] [Laughs] - Yeah, I got two clutches on them. - Nice. - So that's interesting. I may have to pick me five pounds for the first time, so that'd be... First for me. I don't know. I mean, some of the carpet stuff, I'm like... I'm gonna get my formal head example project off in Spain this year. They set a 70-eggs hatch from a proven super caramel to an example genetic. And I know it will come as a surprise. Some people who are still, for whatever reason, just refuse to accept things like facts and science. But once again, my proven super caramel female, 70-eggs, 70-carnals. There's not even an adult. - Girl. - Oddly, I only have like five jags and two of the jags. I'm kind of sketchy about... I mean, jags? Like, I've got something like a beauty. Whether or not I couple of your jags or not, but they're all rock solid carnals all 17. So, so far, she's 31 and 0 for all carnals. Unless you think that's really lucky or something. [Laughs] Yeah, it's like I had a whole bunch of caramel and a few caramel jags. He got a striped caramel jag head example. It's like a female, so I guess I'm keeping that one. - Wow. - That's cool. - Well, for real guys, there's not many morph combos we can make. - Yeah. - I think a lot of like super striped and super caramel, exacting, you know, tighter jags. They're like, "I need to do a lot of that." So I got to do what I can, right? [Laughs] With those. But, oh, yeah. I'm sorry, I got another one. Just drop another super caramel. Just drop an unproven one. So I guess this special would be to prove that she's a super. Now, I still believe in proving them out the hard way to just be on the safe side. - Right. - But, so far, I'm 4. No, I'm 4. No, I'm proving out super. So I got two more improvement out this year by breeding the non-verbal, non-red, non-nothing. I got a male, normal super caramel in the female, but I've read the exam to do so. We'll see if my track record extends to perfect 6.0. I'm bound to get, you know, trapped by what we've done. But now I can just breathe individual examics, though, so I don't have to use normal people to explore. - Okay. - You're speaking my language. I want some more examics. - Oh, I already hatched out your examics. You want a male or female, all right? A male? [Laughs] Non-junics. - I got to get another boy. I got to get another one. - I just hatched out 5, so... - Nice. [Laughs] - Well, now I'm like, "Well, I prefer not to slow with pets, because I wanted, I got pets for particular clutches, because I wanted to take diversities." So I got that. My hats are originally... My original heads are 50% the original Swedish line, and then 25% each two additional coat lines that weren't related to each other or to the original line, so therefore I... The model examics suffered at least 50%. Even if they're digital, they're 50% outcrops. The caramel is up to 75% removed from the original bloodline, and stuff. And I've had no problems with all the heat. They grow, they breathe really well, really scaling. They're just super vigorous. I think they've been... They've gone very well as far as that goes. But yeah, I just had 20... I just had 23 babies out of 22 eggs. - Geez. - From an examic jag to head examic. I think I have something ridiculous. I think I got 7 male examic jags and 5 male examics. So the ridiculous clutch is like 17.5 or 17.6 or something just absurdly male heavy. I think it's 5 examic, non-jag, examic male. - There we go. - I have a great selection for you to choose from. - Yeah, very good. - I kept a couple of them. I got a set of twins when they were doing an examic clutch. I kept all my visuals back in the last year underneath it. I can release them. They should have been hoarding when I produce visual lines or a lot of them. The first show kept all the visuals. So it didn't happen. It sort of happened when he goes back now. My own visuals, like, made my own visuals. But if you're like obsessed with the lineage of these things and the ancestry, it's like I almost had to do it that way sometimes. So this year, it was breeding like the examics that I produced myself to super carbals that produced myself. But I got, you know, it sucks to be in these sometimes. Because you can't just buy some awesome stinky smell. You've got to go to this crazy background check to vet the ancestry and stuff. And then, you know, I'm right there. 800 bucks repairing all the bittles during the day. But it was like they checked all the boxes. They were beautiful. And the background checked out. I was able to verify every day. It's rare. Back to hard to back the original play with people. Like, oh, you know, you really don't have main recognition and everything. You know, sometimes it doesn't make themselves up. The guy I bought this from is nobody you've heard of. Really? It's like, it's not a high level guy at all. It's a guy who just started breeding things. He had the right animals with the right background. And I bought it from him and I gave him actual money. Wasn't a trade deal. I was like, I had to bring out the wallet with all the stuff out of it and everything. And it got real, you know, kind of top dollar to prepare my normal doubles. But it's kind of, so it even happened. What did you need? Yeah. Well, the animals were what I needed, you know, ancestry wise. And the quality was what I was looking for. And that's what he wanted. And I, you know, all of the boxes checked, you kind of had to buy it. You got to do it, you know. Yeah. It's probably easier to sell things when you're a better known breeder at the phone. But it doesn't mean you can't. And any of us that are in it at that point where we are, I guess, well known as far as being breeder, this or that. I mean, that just happens, that just fall out of the sky and land on it. That was, you know, kind of filled up over time and quite intentionally in most cases. So it's like, you got to start somewhere and everything. I remember, you know, I was at that point, you know, early on and everything. And, you know, we're almost in the middle of the day, so to speak. Anybody can do that. I mean, be careful what you breed. Only focus on the best fault animals you can and don't rip anybody off. And it will eventually you'll get there. Like, if you got good stuff and your reputation, you know, I mean, it's like. Yeah. You ever do right by your customers, everything, and you will, well, at least, but surely you will through a good reputation. Yeah. Nothing. Nothing that. Nothing weird about it. Unusual. What you're saying is it's always sad. I mean. The magical here. So. Yeah. Holy crap. Holy crap. If you write by somebody, they'll tell somebody they know what if you hit somebody off, they'll tell everybody they know. It's like, you know, your reputation takes a long time to build up. It was very equally destroyed. So, you know, really. And some people don't ever see the, you know, making the same mistakes and they're playing pretty fast and looping the reputation and stuff. I thought, again, I will make sure, you know, who it was, the name would, you know, would be recognizable to some people. And I was really surprised. I thought I got a major player in the grand scheme of things. But the first new, you've been following Moralean drama lately, you know, in the last, however long, and everything. I mean, it's supposed to be to imply, like, you know, they got whatever breeding results, you know, and everything. And they were, it appears like they, they must have run two males, like an albino and a tiger to the same female, like, well, I'm not seeing a tiger. So that means these babies are all head albino. It's like, whoa, no, it doesn't. It's like, it's like, you know, you know, you put two males there and you think you can tell, you know, if you put a zebra female in a jag to a female and I guess the female is normal. I guess you know who the zebra's big daddy is and the jag daddy is, but it isn't one of those two things. You don't know. No, you can't guarantee it, but you're talking to her stuff and you see this kind of thing all the time. She's like, oh, I'll free this albino, you know, whatever. And I read this behind the balls, this female, whatever, you know, it's like, well, I didn't give him a hobby, so he must all be head albino. It's like, no. No, it's not done in sperm storage and dual maturity. It's like, oh, my God, it's like, you guys, you wonder what happens? Like, even if they don't genuinely think something's what it is, they tell us if it doesn't pan out to be. You kind of strip somebody off on the ignorant subject, which is kind of, I don't know. I mean, and you see that kind of thing, you know, all the time and stuff and people don't really, I don't know. I'm so terrified about that kind of stuff. It's not like, I don't know. I do, but I'm not like playing musical males or anything. It's like, this is the male, and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. I mean, there'd be a couple of times where I had genetically identical males, you know, I had three great males. And if one didn't breed and I rotated the other one in, then I had to make a notation that this is, you know, I can't rule out the possibility that it wasn't this other male. I had an ivory jungle clutch years ago, you know. I couldn't be sure, I was pretty sure it was this one, but I couldn't be totally positive it wasn't the other one. I had to note that it was more than likely one, but the lineage that there's a possibility of this little male could have been a flyer. It's like, you can't, you know, but they're effectively, you know, if the animals are brothers and they need it anywhere. And I had a huge tea life in front of us, but we got to be up front about that. And playing fast loses, like, recessive genes, and it's like, oh my God, you can turn your reputation on. I really found something to go around to be a specific tough because you didn't even, you didn't get it at that grasp at that level. So, I don't know. [inaudible] That's one of the things I'm worried about with caramel and super caramel. It's why I'd much rather sell you an ugly super caramel for the price of a caramel as opposed to, you know, trying to get you to turn it out, not be a super caramel. [inaudible] In the next couple of years, I'll have some very satisfied customers who got super caramel from in, caramel is the first. I did the math, and if I hit the statistical average based on collect size, I think I told me 12 to 15 super caramel to normal caramel for a couple of years. Well, the first two years, all I did was, you know, I hadn't proven it all out yet. I mean, the gene was proven out before I got it. But I hadn't proven my female out because this can't be confusing. My original caramel jag was supposed to be a super caramel jag, and my original caramel female was supposed to be a caramel by a super caramel. She was the nicest looking non-super and turns out she wasn't super, and my, what we thought was a super caramel jag. At the time, I didn't get ripped off of it because it was the first super caramel clutch, super caramel jag clutch produced. And I just paid the same price as a caramel jag, but it was, we believed it was a super caramel. I didn't pay additional for it because it wasn't, I know, commodity. So the one I was very confident was a super caramel jag, wasn't, and the one that I didn't think was turned out at once. Once I produced it myself, I said a little bit better at dividing what's what. But there's enough overlap to where you should be very careful about that. I only ever sold the first two years. I only ever sold, I think, three super carmals. I had super carmals. The other ones I kept are I just sold at really nice carmals. Statistically, for the 15 of them, I sold as normal and would have had to have been speakers, statistically. It could have been more, could have been less. But I don't, you know, it was always better to, you know, if somebody finds a caramel and turns out when they've read the super caramel, he got a new best friend then in a customer's life. Yeah. You've prepared that not to be. That's part of the six. I only ever sold both the three and they were the, so over the top extreme that was like, if that doesn't prove that, I'll give you your money back. No questions then. That's like it. You know, they were at that, the extreme, the top two percent kind of animals and stuff. Now I'm at the point now where I think this year I went, two clutches of caramel. So, well, I guess, well, now I have four. I have two questions of carmals that will all be 100% head-exancing. But I use super caramel as a visual advantage, so I don't like to do it odd. And I had a, and I had a female, I have a couple females. I pretty just test these super carmals out. They don't produce red babies. There hasn't been a red baby and their ancestors are going back 20 years. So if it comes out this way, I know what it is. There's no possibility of confusion. And I've got a question. And then my question should hatch any. So I really should hatch a couple days ago when I thought to prove out a male super caramel. And I expect you will prove out. But I'm taking the extra step. I wanted to use them this year against the super caramel jag. But instead I literally read super caramel jag to super caramel jag. Twice. Because I have proven these off last year. But I didn't have a male super caramel that wasn't a jag to prove out. So, you know, I just want to make all super. So every baby is going to be a super because I've read and I know it because I can guarantee it because I proved their parents out independently. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them the normals last year. I've read them all the normals. I'll never have to do it again. But I just did it once. But it's not it. It kills you to breathe out. Police strikes super caramel jag to female to a normal male. Yeah. Yeah. It kills me. There's three of them. That's a slice male, but I got some beautiful babies, but I, you know, it killed me to do that because I could have read a super caramel male film, but I, it wouldn't have proven conclusively what was going on and I thought, given all the speculation from certain individuals, like, yes, more than others, it's like, we'll just go the extra mile here. And now I know for sure. And it was nice. I mean, I've read an example. I've read an example check to approve a super caramel and I knew before those eggs, that's exactly what it's going to be. An entire clutch. Seventy eggs, give you 70 carmels, an example, and some old BJ. Okay. Zachary, what next? I get no surprises and stuff. And it's, and next year I'll be able to presumably breathe super caramel to super carmels, super strikes, super caramel to, you know, I'll tell them to make these things and. Nice. Let's go up that extra step and prove an amount and everything is, makes a difference. Yeah. Eric got my attention now because he's got the, um, ghost stuff cooking with the, uh, caramel exam. He got from you. So. Carl had exam. Yeah. Yeah. Easy. They're going to go to, uh, I could go totally crazy and put them with the exam. Examic zebra. I want to buy it. I, you know, I really, uh, the exam. The thing I was, that's what I kind of regret. I should have been more aggressive about it. It's like, you know, I know the right people. I could've got it. I didn't get into these projects at the very beginning. I thought I said it got into that a little bit earlier than I did. If I did not really anticipate the demand for an exam pick stuff would be as high as it is, but there's just a ton of people who want that stuff. I really kind of, uh, I mean, I didn't audit. I mean, but I mean, I didn't want to start out with the red stuff. I wanted to start out making healthier animals or animals in a better chance of being stronger genetically my estimation. So I went that route, but I thought you'd have done that even sooner. And it's, uh, yeah, I've misgated the kind of, uh, demand for those examples. I'll have plenty of this year. I got to, I should produce a couple of worlds first combos. I will produce the first, uh, super caramel, super jag. I probably should have six or seven on a relay. Uh, so, uh, that the first, uh, super caramel Lucy. Uh, that should also produce. I should also produce two or three examples Lucy's also. So I have a big photo shoot for those. Uh, I'm pretty sure they'll just be white conked out, but, uh, you will see those several worlds, world first combos there. But what are you going to do, right? Yeah. Uh, I guess the same problem, like a lot of people have, we have, like, too many jags. And sometimes, like the first time I produce the examples, the only visual examples may have the first year was the jags. And so I didn't, you know, I was thinking this is where you use a non-jagged version. And I just, I've got them now. I've raised a couple of them for this year. Non-jaggedy, I think, males, but I don't, I don't want to have the option, the jagged option or not. Yeah. It does make them look, they are a little bit nice. The jag thing is a wider light area. It gives them a little bit of blue things when they have. They really know. Yeah, they are very nice. So I, I think everybody's going to do the jagged jags thing eventually, right? Eventually. Yeah. I've never actually, this is the year. And I thought it's delusional in the light. I know exactly what's going to happen. It's just kind of like, I do not have any ingredients. I need it without the jag on the other side. So it's like that. Oh, well. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Well, we are, uh, what's that? Everybody else is doing it. There we go. Don't have to go left out. So it's my career. This year. I just want to get it. My goal is I get a good picture of one while still breathing. It has to be. That brief window. It probably has to cut the egg and pull it out or something like that. But there's like kind of a. Probably. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I'll do like a good net crop tea and show the poor lung development. Everything. Do a blog about it. There's nothing. Yeah. I do have a plug, my upcoming blog and radio show now, but I do have a pretty interesting, I did add something kind of not only another. Another genetic anomaly that should be impossible, but I did hash one. I'm going to do a blog about it. I'm going to have a doctor traffic. Why don't you create some ball five out please. Actual geneticists. I don't know. Is that a spline? I know why. Is that the guy that goes by a slante? Is that the guy that was just on the. Royal. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I have. I've had him on as well. Real good guy. But. Just the case. I think I'm making stories up all of them on. I know what happens. We're going to feel like. I've been waiting for it to happen. Because specifically, I mean, so many snakes over the years. Like, why is this occur? It's not ever happened to me. Like, this was the year. First one. The biggest cut out. The thing that shouldn't be there. Or shouldn't be able to be there, but under. You know, I mean, I'll post about it. But I've seen it before, where you know, you get some little breed up. You know, a receptive animal to a non-head and produce a visual. And it's not part of it. And it can't be part of the genesis in this case. Just because, you know. Yeah. Let me digest that again real quick. You said you bred. On heads and made a visual of something. Is that right? I've read a granite. I've read a granite IJ to a wild caught non-head and made a grant. Get out. Well, it's impossible. And they're very, very specific. It's very specific. It's very complicated to breed this animal. If that's what, but that would be the topic of discussion. I've got a picture of it coming out of the egg. Cool. Oftentimes people, the mother is not a head. I've read the same parents last year. I've got 12 eggs. No granite. I read a picture of 13 eggs. Wasn't granite. Well, head. She's not a head. That's not how this happened in every day. Occasionally people have this. I was qualified on what's in a while. And people like, oh, I didn't know my female is a head for ghost. Like, maybe it wasn't head for ghost. There's this whole other possibility they don't really understand. And they make the assumption that, oh, the animal just turned out it was a whatever and everything. And that's not necessarily the case. So, but it's a little bit higher level genetic talk, I guess. But I've been, it's been killing me not to post a picture. Because people are trying to get a brainer out and it will just explode. But I think those are the brief specifications everything. It could be wise understand this stuff. It's not something that's indicative of just the mutations. It's just the mutation gives you a window into something that was already happening. It's like this phenomenon happens with any gene or gene. It just that when it happens to occur at the locus where one of these colored anatomy stages occurs, it allows us to visually see something that was going on behind the scenes anyway. And it allows you to visually see it and stuff. So, I'll talk about that. So, yeah, I wish it was a female because the male is more problematic than it is a boy. But it is a, I almost like have to breathe out of some sort of weird curiosity like a chimera pterodacta has. The collection of genetic misfits. [ Laughter ] >> Where do we find your blog at, Nick? >> I've heard patients of course, which I'm pretty much just part and parcel of those guys now. Definitely do friends for years and some other. Fully onboard the patient team as far as the editorial league and running things on the day-to-day basis and all that. Right for them and any. As if I didn't have enough to do with all that, I might need to have a blog too. I think now I have a call to every issue. I write feature articles. I have a blog. I have run the day-to-day operations in the magazine and everything. I have a podcast. There's not, I mean, Nick needs another job to do. Apparently. So, I put some on my website, but that's fair, you know, on my Facebook page and stuff. There's links all over the place. I put one up a period. I type up another one tonight probably. Next couple of years. I saw your last one was on maternal incubation. So, I know a lot of our listeners have questions on that. One of these days, I've got a giant article on that. It's kind of a giant thing that I can gather into physical data for like six years on. It's getting broken and clutches and all this. I need to just. Every time I almost get down with it, when I get busy. I'm just like, ah, cause it's always patching. He's like, I'll just get next to your data. I'm going to finish that. I'll probably, it probably is a feature around the time. Eggs are being laid so that it's like time late, you know, about the time before considering that as an option. There'll be a lot of statistical information in there and stuff. It'll be pretty meaty and stuff, but that's a lot more species. So, they'll be, it's not just. I've done all of Python's and Eurasia, all Python's, all the carpet, Python's. It's more than just, you know, a couple of carpet clutches. There's a lot of clutches and a lot of species. You can see, street geniuses and, you know, kind of a part for geniuses actually, trying to get the, you know, they could say a little more than just as it's made to carpet Python. Some of these species are very good at it. A little more sea awful at it, really. It's not been a cut. Their ability, Python's ability to certainly incubate eggs is not evenly distributed. Some do are very proactive. Some do not. And different strategies of how they go about it and, you know, think big about it. Some species are highly recommended. Some are like caution against it. You know, I've been done it. I've been done it. It's not multiple. But now I'll get that done and, you know, all kinds of stuff. I had a couple blogs will be more genetic oriented every day. I'm going to, you know, update my kind era, my super zebra, zebra, super zebra, Frankenstein. I've got some color enough. It's starting to color up a lot now and stuff. It's pretty, those are kind of an update on that. Blogger kind of. I love that thing. It's really a freak. That's cool. I'm trying to breed it just out of some sort of curiosity. I have a couple of super zebra females who are ready to breed this year. I don't know what to do with it. See, if I was the more guy, like you guys made, like you heard and picked it up a lot. But I would have to worry about what to do with a super zebra female. I have two adult super zebra females. I couldn't sell them. I was like, I don't have one of these. I don't have two adult girls, but kept the first couple. They're both ready to breed. It's clean when I'm all worth talking. They're ready to go. I don't have any idea what to do with them though. Right. Maybe put an ivory with them or something and make a whole bunch of ivory. There you go. There you go. A few more months. You have to figure that out. I've got nearly adult ivory neighbors from the first time I hit it. The best project in the night. One of the things I'm going to have to take a trip to see what hidden gems you have at the inland reptile. Yeah. That is always a little something something. Yeah. Well, some of that, well, that's a nice thing about being the figure. It's like you do. Or it's accurate every one. Yeah. I never sold any of the ivory zebras. I never sold any hypo hat striped brettles. I kept all of them. You know, I'll have a double hat stone wash. They tried brettles here on the ground on the ground. It could be the next week. I have a funny feeling those are sticking around too. You know, it's like that. Yeah. Got to keep your competitive edge. I guess at least the first year. Because a lot of that stuff, you know, I don't know. I go ahead and try. I don't know which one to try at the best. If I sold them all, I just kept a couple pairs. Well, what about you? The best ones. The best ones you take are the best. Initially, aren't the best ones longer. If you keep them all, you know, the very best. I have to keep the very finest examples. There are many zebras jungles I have. It just blows my mind. How many I have kept back. I've got a zebra at least once in every place I've ever produced. Finally, I held back. I felt back since 7 and 10 zebras each of the last four years. You don't keep them all forever. And I don't breathe them all. It's like, but you don't know. It's like you keep back the good group of these. You get a cream of the crop and you hold them back. You can see how they color out. Then you breathe the best of those. Then you repeat the process. It's like, I've got to really aggressively pushing through. At this point in my Herp career, it's like, I cannot have kind of the average thing. I don't have any space left. It's like, it isn't awesome. I don't have room for average. It's got to be exceptional. You don't know always what that and which one that is. So, you've got to just cap the wide net sometimes. You're always looking for that one animal. There's one in every clutch that just takes the project to the next level. You know, there's going to be one in the next 20 years. There's going to be one out of 20. There's going to be the one that goes to the next level of quality. And he is going to be pressing on. It's like, or you can left behind. Because if you're not going to do it, somebody else is. You can't maintain a level of whatever longevity in the business and be able to keep doing this for a living like I do if you don't have the good stuff. You've got to always have the good stuff. That's why I've got 18 hypo head strength rentals that I hear from last year, 18 of them. Really don't want 18 of them at all. At that point, I'm going to have to fit in that herd. But I need to know which ones that maybe at 18 months, which ones were the best ones. I see the best ones because I want the best possible offspring. You know, but you don't know. I cannot count how many times I've been to buy my own offspring back from people. Check back a couple, sold the rest of them. Then the ones I sold turned out better than the ones I checked back. And then I tried to buy back my own babies at three times. So I sold them for it. That sucks. Yeah. So. But you know, it happens. So that's what you got to meet with us. All right. I should let you guys go. So I'm going to try to get me out the phone. And as usual, I won't shut up. [laughter] No, yeah. [buzzer] Anyway. All right. Nick. [buzzer] [buzzer] [buzzer] Inlandreptile.com, right? [buzzer] Inlandreptile. Check out your cast on HerpNationRadio.com or HerpNation.com. That's all just HerpNation through HerpNation.com. It's all there. Okay. But that everything's there. Blog's there. Radio shows there. That's the-- that's the-- that's the end of the video episode of that. I'm trying to get like three or four recorded in advance. So the one I'm pulling my hair out with all these baby snakes. I'm kind of, uh, it's been out in the future a little bit. [laughter] Yeah. [laughter] Get myself a little bit of a Christian hanging out. It's, uh, it's hard to do it regularly, as you guys know. You guys are the most regular guys in the business. [laughter] Yeah. That's something I wanted to add. I wanted that. It's on the get-go. Rain or-- That was the deal. You guys are literally-- well, look at this week. A tornado watch. And you guys are on anyway. It doesn't matter. [laughter] You guys get-- you guys get hit by the tornado and it still be on. And that matters, but you consistently just always on. You guys-- you know what, two days? You can always-- you may not be able to count on much, but you guys will be there. And stuff. [laughter] And it's hard. And I would have not thought-- I didn't think it was going to be as hard as it is either. And now that I do it myself, it is damn difficult. Life's coming out of the way of stuff, but you guys, I have-- you know, anybody thinks it's easy. I'll just do a podcast every week. It's a lot easier to do. And stuff. It's a real commitment to the time and stuff. So you guys give a round of applause for that, for sure. [laughter] Appreciate it. You're legions of fans appreciate your hard work and consistency every week. But usually not in the middle of the night, everything. Yeah, usually not in the middle of the night. We actually did hit by Tornado down here because Zach is messaging me that the full of our shutdown and trees are all over the place. [laughter] Yeah. I did the sunlight. Well, the storm passed. I'm good. [laughter] There you go. [laughter] All right, guys. Great talking to you, as always. Likewise. Thank you. Thank you. I like it. All right. Yeah, I don't know if you guys caught the last episode of Nick's podcast, but I was-- he talked with Dr. Frey about his recent book, "A Whole New Image," and it was a really good show. So you should check that out. Definitely worth it. It was quite entertaining as well, to say the least. But we're going to roll off until we're going to start, but we're going to end. Sorry. Paul, I hope you're feeling better. You know, I'd love to get you again at some point in the near future. Next week, we are talking with Andy Grossman from-- that's at Sun's-- oh, shit. Sunrise. This is sunrise or sunset. Oh, damn it. No. Yeah, anyway. I'm going to do it with Sun. [laughter] I suck. I'm sorry, Andy. He is not talking to anterica. He is quite the prolific breeder of anterica. Yes. Bartlettel. He also does royals and a couple of other things here and there. So it should be interesting to talk to him about them. Maybe the babies are a little tricky. So maybe he can give us some tips, some tricks on how to get those guys to go. I'm actually quite fond of them. Kind of weird. I have a pair of children's. When I see them in pictures and everything like that, I really didn't-- I get the full appreciation of them. But actually, I like to really are literally like a little tiny python. I was just really kind of neat. I remember when you had the-- you had the granite spot. It's right on. Yeah, I had the granite spot of pythons. It was a small ball python. I think it was-- Yeah, I remember coming to your place. It was like, oh, I couldn't believe that that was a python. And they were breathing age, you know? So it should be cool to talk to him. The week after that, we have John Bataglia coming back. A lot of people know him as Sloop from MP Days. But he's from Marissa Trophy Club. He came on the show a long time ago. He came back in the very beginning of what we did this night. That's the idea of what we were doing. Yeah. He's an article on selective free in reptile magazine. So he's going to be coming on and chatting with us about being-- He also is quite the hybridizer with Kapondra and such. So we'll see what's going on in that world. And, you know, if you've ever heard-- The Long Diamond Jungle Jags as Gamma Line Jungle Jags. This is a show that you want to be paying attention to because he's quite the guy. He's super nice guy. And in the week after that, this is-- I guess this will be part two of our Morph series. We did the Jags show. And I think it's now time for the Tiger show. So we're going to be doing the show on the Tiger Carpet Python Morph. We're going to go into this tree and watch what's been done with it. And I kind of think of any better guest to come on and talk to us about that. Usually we're doing these-- What? Not Reading. Not Howard. In Howard Reading, right? Yeah. Nobody else would think that Tiger's been Howard. Right? Oh. No. Jason Bailin. Oh, yeah. That guy. Oh, my goodness. Last one. Sorry, Howard. I'm not trying to say that you're not a good tiger for beer. Good look for it. Give the guy the main guy some Craig, man. Anyway, he's going to be coming on and we're going to be talking about, you know, I mean, Jason is pretty much the guy when it comes to the Tiger Morph. He's worked with many projects with it. He's doing some cool stuff. So I can't wait to talk to him about that. And that's kind of what we have lined up for us. Mariah at pythonradio.com. You can check out the site for updates and news and everything. And everything that you would want to know about the show or about us is all right there. And also about the guest right there for you to check out. I've sent us an email info at Mariah pythonradio.com. You can download the show on iTunes. You can subscribe there, you know, every week, like that. We're pretty consistent with the show. So every Tuesday night, you'll get a little down on my phone or iPad or whatever it is and be able to listen to the show. What else? What else do we got? I think that's it for more than a day on radio. So I guess 15 left is me, E.B. Mariah. Yep. You can check out the site eb4.com. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to contact me at Eric at E.B. Mariah. Please like the Facebook page. You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram. E.B. Mariah. Today I started to take pictures of 2014 babies that I'm going to be putting up for sale. I know, right? 2014 babies. Dude, I got to tell you, I'll tell you. Over today, right? So he was picking up his chondros when he came over. The babies that hatched out. Oh my God, you see some of the caramel jags. Really? So cool. Yeah. Oh my God, they're sick, dude. They're sick. Yeah, I'm going to go on my children to rap to right now. I'm waiting for everything to shed some more. So I've turned into you. Get over here. Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh, you're going to hoard it up? All right, man. Yeah, I'm going to do a little bit. A little bit. Until they get a little bit bigger and shed nice. No. Right. Yeah. Well, I'm pretty excited about these tigers. They're pretty freaking awesome. Yeah. So I'm milling any tiger that I'll buy now? No? No. No. I'm going to be more of them next year. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. You're first on the list. I will get that every moment, every other day, I get a message dagger. I'll get a message dagger. I'll buy those. I'll get a message dagger. I'll buy those. I'll wear you down. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. There's, uh, there's that going on. Yeah. Be able to look it up. Just in some, uh, some carpet pythons. Oh, yeah. I'm in for sale. Also, I should just note that, um, I've been sort of doing some rearranging and jingling a bunch of it. Um, um, I want to try. I want to try to have a little, uh, I'm just trying to defend that. Oh, that's a little bit as far as, uh, working with some different types of things and such. Um, so I've added some, some stuff with that. There is some carpets that, you know, just like Nick was saying, you know, you keep stuff back. And I would say that they're, you know, they're like a grade, but I don't need five a grades. So I'm probably going to be, uh, going through the collection. And some are going to make it. Some are not. So I don't know if there's anybody out there that's interested in anything. Oh, and of course you have first pick. Uh, but I'm like, uh, I got some things that I'm going to be, uh, going to be part with, uh, that are probably, it's probably, probably pretty cool that people may want their collection. So be on the lookout for that. You told me this and I asked you questions and I'm like, are you going to tell any of these? You're like, no, I'm like, you're going to sell these. You're like, no, like then I don't care. You're like, but I'm going to sell these. I'm like, I care again. Oh, good. Now. Look, I don't give a damn. I'm going to sell these. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was intriguing. I like. You say, you say something like, and I can just hear your, uh, your, um, your tone too. Yeah. Yeah. I'm kind of scared. I'll be like, I'm scared. Go on. Go on. Yeah. None of you have my, everyone's in a while. You'll do something on like little message feed and all, all message back with you. You now have my attention. Yeah. I'm not really paying attention. Then you post up something like, you know, thinking about buying weightlets. I'm like, you now have my attention. Yeah, it's like you're good. Now I'm paying attention now. Everything else is gone. So, yeah. Cool. So that's all I got. Uh, E. B. Mariah back. Go ahead, Owen. Cool. Uh, what I got is you can go to rogue@dashreptile.com. We're in the process of updating it. Um, so far, no babies from 2015 are up for sale yet, but they will be coming soon. We did get our table back. So we will be at the August 1st Hamburg show and hold on. Hold on. I got to, I got to throw a little plug in there for you. You're looking for a tiger. You should be watching for, oh, I put some up for sale. Go ahead. All right. So hopefully by August 1st, the Tigers will be up for sale. I put some pictures up, not a lot. Um, and then we're hoping for that. They're all they are. The caramel tiger jag will be coming up on their heels. Um, hopefully we'll have some of those babies left over ready for August. If not, we do still have some leftover kernels, caramel jags, and super caramel jags, as long as, along with bread lie, the Dominican Red Mountain Boa, and some coastal and tigers from last year that are still here. So if you want something, let's know if not, we'll see you in August. And then we're closing in on the Tinley October show too. So I'm getting excited about that. Hopefully I'll have a ton of babies for that. Yes. Cause we're, I'm going. I don't care. I don't know what he's doing, but I'm going. So I will be there. Actually, there's a thing in the, in my email today. So we're going to be booking the table. Sweet. Just enough. Oh. Then August, Hamburg is, I finally get to show off the new logo and shit. Like I had this whole table shut up and I couldn't show it off yet. So definitely come to August. You're in the area. Damn it. Go. Anyway, what I will say is thank you all for listening and make sure to tune in us back in with us next week at the normal time, which is nine o'clock, or some more Merlea Python radio. Good night, everyone. Hey, Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL or as a reptile breeder and the owner of Proxox. I've been herping since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Marklin and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site, bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news. 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