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Nick Mutton is back!

In this episode we are joined by Nick Mutton and we will talking about the different bloodlines of carpet pythons in the US. We will be tallking about the history behind some of the most well known carpet pythons and lines in the US. http://www.inlandreptile.com/

Duration:: 2h 45m
Broadcast on:: 08 Apr 2015
Audio Format:: other

Hey Chad Brown here. You may remember me as a linebacker in NFL or as a reptile breeder in the owner of Proxox. I've been hoping since I was a boy and I've dedicated my life to advancing the industry and educating the community about the importance of reptiles. I also love to encourage the joy of breathing and keeping reptiles as a hobbyist, which is why my partner Robin and Marklin and I create the reptile report. The reptile report is our online news aggregation site bringing the most up-to-date discussions from the reptile world. Visit the reptilereport.com every day to stay on top of the latest reptile news and information. We encourage you to visit the site and submit your exciting reptile news, photos and links so we can feature outstanding breeders and hobbyists just like you. The reptile report offers powerful brandy and marketing exposure for your business and the best part is it's free. If you're a buyer or breeder, you've got to check out the reptile report marketplace. 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Use shipereptiles.com to take advantage of our discounted priority overnight shipping rates and materials needed to ship the reptile successfully. Live customer support in our live, on time, arrival insurance program. We got you covered. Visit the reptilereport.com to learn or share about the animals. Click on the link to the marketplace, find that perfect pet or breeder, then visit shipreptiles.com to ship an animal anywhere in the United States. We are your one stop shop for everything reptile related. [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Hi everybody, welcome to another episode of Moralia Python radio and tonight we have the man. He's back, Nick mutton, he's coming back. The man that wrote the book, we wanted to have him on the carpet round table, but he wrote the book, we can't argue with the guy. You are incorrect, sir, you're incorrect. Exactly, when the man is like, oh, here are my animals themselves, by the way, the female that bred this animal is page 344 in the complete carpet. [Music] Nick has been on the show multiple times and he is a wolf and it comes to all Python, it's not just carpet pythons. I mean, if there's something that's, I guess it's boa's too, because he does keep boa's as well. But tonight we're going to be talking about, I guess, sort of like maybe a little bit of a history about carpet pythons and some of the different bloodlines and even maybe touch on the fact of what is a bloodline. I mean, some people are out there saying this line, that line, somebody's line, is it really a line? He's my own bloodline, wait a minute, you want two kids and bailing animals and bred them together. You didn't create a new line, those are his still. Yeah, it's difficult sometimes for people to grasp where to go with this and I know you and I have tried to explain it and I'm pretty sure that, you know, we made it actually like hurt more than we help sometimes. Yeah, like when we were trying to explain chimeras and I'm pretty sure Ben committed suicide, but yeah, yeah, sometimes we really just need to shut the hell up. So, yeah, I never claimed to be the expert on. I'm a facilitator of knowledge. That's what I am. We bring the experts to you. Correct with us that you can listen to us. Yeah, but yeah, we're not going to banter too long. We're going to get Nick right on here right away because I know he has to, he has a limited time, and we'll catch up on some happenings. And today was happy. Later. Yeah, like happy snake delivery day. So you know, I'm getting a bunch of Nick, I'm like you bastard. Like, I don't care. I don't really, I don't really want that. Yeah, lies always. Hey, Nick, welcome, welcome back to the show. That's good. Yeah, so, so we want to talk about some bloodlines and lines and all these different things with carpets and maybe when things came into the US and whatnot, maybe you could start by explaining to us what makes a bloodline and what is a line. What's the difference? I mean, this is kind of one of those. I suppose you could people could debate what constitutes a bloodline, but to me, anyway, in the strictest definition, the term would be a separate unique genetic lineage. And that's where a lot of people, I think, get a little confused and constantly use the term incorrectly. I mean, I think it appropriately applied to my own animal all the time. I cannot count. I mean, it's, it doesn't mean everything I got from somewhere else. And so on and so forth and everything to me, separate bloodlines are separate. You can have your own reader's line, I suppose, if you selectively print for a while and you've kind of taken things in its own direction or whatever. That's certainly possible. That's not really a separate bloodline. So I'm constantly amused that I see some examples of very small gene pools in our captive in the U.S. hobby and everything. And I constantly see, oh, I'll get unrelated this and unrelated that. It's totally not unrelated. There's a misconception that if you get a, you know, you get a jungle carpets for a moan and you use a jungle carpets for me, if it's somehow that makes them unrelated. Well, they might not be clutch mates, but they usually, you know, let the whole different, whole different thing from being totally unrelated in everything. That's where people get a little, get a little twist around it sometimes with things. I mean, separate, separate founder's stock and that's a much, much steeper burden than just getting, you know, snake from somebody else and stuff. So, I mean, you look at like the Brettel's python in the United States, but until, you know, rather recently, and there's a few more bloodlines available now that I've imported some stuff from Europe and some other bloodlines are available there. But up at that point, I mean, they're, you pretty much, there's almost all the same stuff, wasn't it? But you see all the time, you see how long it, you know, they have different unrelated bloodlines because they've got different breeders. I mean, it's really all roads lead back to one, to one source really, in that case. So that's right. Getting your brain around that, I guess, is kind of important for what's followed up. It's like, I've also, like, I've also, almost, I might need to get you guys straight on kind of rhythm and all that all works too. At least I'm not from the intro. Yeah, we're not good. You know, I've listened to you say that a thousand times, Nick, and I tried to repeat it and I just, I've totally fumbled. Well, it's not just one thing. I mean, you have a bunch of, well, not a bunch, but you have several different mechanisms by which you can end up with that, but are very different than how it happens and everything. Yeah, I guess it can be kind of a hard day. I find that's a really interesting, personally, I find that very, just really fascinating, that the kind of stuff that keeps me interested to hobby and everything, they kind of dirty aspects of it. But it does make some people's brains kind of explode a little bit, get into that kind of stuff. But it's really fascinating, though, I mean, it's not just knowledge of how genetics works and, you know, embryogenesis and all of these kinds of things. It's not just applicable just to Python. That's applicable to everything. And this main phenomenon happens in humans, it happens in everything. So it's really, it's under, really at its root, it's understanding the basics of, you know, reproduction and life and just biology at this very basic level. Talking about it in terms of snakes, it's applicable to everything. And stuff, you know, pretty interesting stuff. But the chimerism, it's really quite amazing to me just how screwed up things can go and still end up with a viable living animal. So many things can go so terribly wrong and that you still end up with something that's alive at the end of the day. Yes. That's a couple of them this year, her 2014 and her issue. One of which I post the pictures, one of them never posted pictures of them, I don't know why, because I never get around to doing that kind of stuff. And I actually had two in 2014, myself, so. That was the zebra, pretty looking thing you had to do. Yeah, it's like half, so that one's like half super zebra and I think half zebra. So it could be half normal jungle. So looking at it, I'm pretty sure zebra and super zebra is not super zebra and normal. It really doesn't matter, it's just a kind of a curiosity to me anyway. I'll just keep it, you know. I will read it if it's capable of reading, which we made to be seen. Because I'm curious to see what it reproduces as, just the sort of weird academic curiosity. It's going all night, please. Or the best eater out of the whole clutch. So that's another one that's a male advantage. This year we saw across, go ahead. Oh, I'm sorry, this year we saw a lot of that happen in Australia with albinos, which kind of. Yeah. Or is that. These are, people always want to make these weird, but not weird. I mean, maybe it seems logical, but it's not really it. They want to make the assumption that, oh, it's somehow more common there than it is here. It's more common than albinos. You know what it is? It's that on a white and yellow snake, if you get a black fleck, it's really freaking obvious. It's really, you shouldn't need a mile away. Whereas if you have a brown and black snake, well, if you have like, say you had a granite IJ and you had an extra couple of black scales on it that weren't supposed to be there, you wouldn't even know this. Where are you going to? You're never going to know. You've never noticed it, but you know, a few white, a few white scales, a few amelidistic scales on your head albino are pretty obvious. A few white scales that it shouldn't be, or a few black scales on a snake that isn't albino are very, very obvious. But just with the case, it's about buying them in either, you know, whether you have like a paradox, a paradox, a paradox, a homozygous, or whatever, however you want to phrase it, it's just really obvious in those cases. Whereas other things, it's a little more, maybe more or more difficult. I've had six or seven paradoxes over the years in lots of different species and stuff. It was just never, this is the first time I actually got a couple that were really interesting. Both sides are pretty minor, you know, a little patch of this or that that doesn't match. But how those little patches get there is a whole other, whole other story. The rarest, and what seems to be the rarest in the most extreme cases are what you could call tetricimetic chimerism, which is literally the exact opposite of identical twinning. The opposite of identical twinning, you have one embryo that splits into two, and one zygote ultimately becomes two animals, and this is the opposite of that where you have two totally zygotes that become one embryo that ultimately spews into a single embryo with two different genotypes. And that's where you get the real Frankenstein looking stuff with half one thing, half another, head split right down the middle, really weird stuff. The other mechanisms where you're going to put what's more common are paradoxes, where you have kind of an animal of 95% of one thing and this is a patch that doesn't match the rest. And that can come about in a couple of different ways, but sorry, I'm getting off on a tangent. Broadly, chimerism is when you have all these paradoxes animals. All paradoxes animals basically have two different genotypes. They have at least some portion of their body that is not of the same genotype as the predominant portion of it. And if you have an animal of two different genotypes, you're either a chimera or you are a mosaic. A mosaic is when you have chimerias when you have two different, an animal of two different genotypes that arrive from two different places, i.e. two different animals to use into one animal or a little population of cells from a neighboring embryo, managed to migrate over and worked away into something else. That's when all of it happens a lot. It happens a lot, marmosetes must be concerned about. You have a lot of embryo, if you have twins, some cells from one will migrate over and up in the other one. They found in a lot of species now where you'll have cells from the mother will end up in migrating into the embryo and stuff until you have a little bit of your mother's DNA. Really? So, like, you'll actually just pull DNA straight from the mom to pull it. Some of those cells can kind of migrate and stuff during the whole process you'll end up with. There's a population of cells that really shouldn't be there. Weird. Hey, I was like, guys, Eric's told me I was cutting out and everything. Yeah, you kind of are, and I don't know what he's doing. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, I can hear you. I have my earpiece, my thumb. It's a little easier for me, but see if that's any better. Yeah, that can happen. There's just all kinds of weird things. You can have genes that are a localized area on the animal, kind of like that. We should really good explain this stuff. You've got you've got you talking about it. I'm butchering my own word, chipping over my own word. No. But, you can have no alleles and stuff where another common thing that is likely to cause a lot of these things is what's called a null allele. And then null allele can happen throughout an entire animal or selectively in little random patches and stuff. And that is where, since we all know, or should all know, that you get two copies of every gene in your body, one for your mother, one for your father. That's the whole point of sexual reproduction. That is not always entirely true. That is what is ideal and that's what's supposed to happen, but sometimes screw-ups happen. And you can end up with one, zero, three. You can end up with the wrong number and stuff of alleles that are given locus. It's supposed to be two, it almost always is, but occasionally something will happen. And one copy of that gene for one parent will fail to come across. And then you end up with what's called a null allele. In those cases, the affected areas will display the homozygous expression of the single copy that they do have. So if you have a head albino, there's a head albino, but there's a few little patches where the normal copy of that gene at the albino locus does not come across. There's just nothing, you just have an albino gene in that area, and there is no other gene at all, just a null allele essentially, then those areas will visually manifest albino because there isn't anything there to oppose them. What makes an albino, or any of these things, the homozygous expression, these albino, because it's a very easy one, but what makes an albino, an albino, is not having two copies of the albino gene. It's actually that it no longer has any normally functioning copies of that gene, it cannot produce any melanin. I mean, it's not that having two copies of this magically-machined albino, it's really the absence of any normally-function copy that they show an albino. You have two broken genes, whereas a head albino, you get one functional copy, one not, the one functional copy. You can still produce it with one copy, and you can't without. That's another way you end up with weird paradoxes and everything and stuff. There would be more of a genetic mosaic sort of model. So either the cells that don't match had to come from, those genes had to come from somewhere else, and you have a chimera, or they are broken from within, basically, and you end up with a mosaic. Either way, they hatch out all the time. I've had to fix your stuff, though. It's kind of lame ones until this year. Actually, I had three this year come and I had a ball pipe on them, too. That's real. You had that olive with that black patch. Okay, no, I had four of them. See, you know, that's what you get for hatching like a thousand babies. That wasn't a thousand. That would be, it was probably too many, though. And that keeps cropping up with enough breeding sounds. The olive thing, I don't think we'd count as a paradox because all of those are too many black pigment at all, a little on a giant black blotch of it. I don't know what that is. No, that is cool. Yeah. Maybe. I mean, it's like, probably nothing, but, you know, everything's probably nothing until you prove that it is something. The odds are always against something being, but that's such a weird because there is no black on an olive python at all. I mean, I mean, you saw a black scale, so that was solid blotch like that. It's pretty substantial in size. Yeah. Yeah, who knows? I'll keep it. It's a female, so what the heck, right? Yeah, why not? You see how, see what happens for all, you know? They're really like olive pythons, anyway, so. Hey, the beauty of, what if the odds of it being some random spontaneous mutation are probably pretty slim? Yeah. But when those things happen in captivity, it's almost, you always end up with the random production of a heterozygous animal. Not a homozygous animal. Right. And so, as I know, for a fact, the parents of that are not het for black blotches. I mean, because I've bred those animals, geez, I think that. The mothers for, I hatched her, like, 13 years ago or something. I've literally owned the produce to parents and, you know, owned the grandparents to bred them all in numerous times, so. Mm-hmm. It's a one-off sort of a thing. So, if it were genetic, it would likely be some sort of incomplete dominant at which a black blotch would be the heterozygous form. So, it's probably just a fluke. Yeah. But still, it's something cool that popped up that makes it all over. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Never know what else coming out of eggs, so. I guess you got that. I did that for a weird one. I think about it, but, uh... [laughter] I'm not even getting into, like, you know, the two-headed mutant things that you and I have talked about. No, no two-headed snakes this year. I didn't have two two-headed carpets in different clutches a couple years ago in the same year. Nothing this year. I just assume my snake only had one head. Two heads, really, if you look at it historically, rarely works out very good. Rarely does. It's almost always a pretty unfortunate sort of a thing. You know, for every one's snake with two heads, it lives a normal life. There's, you know, almost a hundred by the don't. It just almost never works out. Yeah. I had a two-headed zebra that lived for about six weeks. Oh, uh... We usually have a problem with those things. It's phycephalic or dycephalic. I've heard it used either way. But, uh... We usually have a point where the two spines fuse together. And it comes together. There's some sort of instruction that can't feed properly or can't pass it. And they show you to starve it up. Yeah. And that's the case with my ill-fated... Two heads of zebra. [chuckles] There's one in here. So, if we don't hear it though, you all stop talking. It's almost as late there like it was dead for about two days. It couldn't even move. It's like the two heads didn't know how to control the body because they wanted to do different things. And then literally over a couple of days, they like figured out how to move. And within like a week, it was moving around and perched on it just like any other snake and everything. They figured out how to work together and everything. And both tongues would flip their tongues and all that. But, you know, they didn't want to eat initially. Couldn't shed right either, of course, but, uh... After it's first shed, what need would need? I finally just anticipated a pinkie. It spited out. It's just been in a couple weeks later. It spit out and died. Because, you know, right, where all the plumbing has to y together, they're usually in a way some sort of problem. Yeah, something like that. Right. Yeah. So, yeah. One head's 20 and then you two. Yeah. We're good. So, um, why don't we talk about the stuff that, you know, we were going to talk about. Oh, yeah. That's what I mind to my level. But, um, what was some of the first carpets that people worked with in the United States? I know for a while that there really weren't too many. You know, the weird thing is there's always been this stuff here. Mm-hmm. It's just that no one really could breed anything or even tried. I mean, there have been, I don't know when the first carpets, Australian carpet pythons, made their way to the United States. At least in the early 50s. I mean, for sure. Uh, back then, everybody obviously is in the carpet pythons. You know, well aware that the Australia is kind of a. Rather draconian wildlife policy of not, you know, allowing much in the way of exports. And everything has been that way since about 1970. Well, prior to that, it was never, it was never really legal to export things out of Australia. But prior to about 1970, it was not really illegal either. It was just kind of an area on a trust by the law source. So it was kind of a gray area. It hadn't been expressly outlawed, but it, you know, it wasn't really, you know. Right now, wildlife, the wildlife trade is fairly well regulated around the world and everything. There's lots of regulation. Right. Yeah. Sides and all of that. But there was a time before the Sides Convention. And it was basically a free-for-all. And during those years, those decades, everything, lots of animals came out of Australia to the United States. And I'm not suggesting that a lot of those animals survived and never got bred because that's certainly not the case. But those animals, they used to, they would come in and stuff. All of that stuff came. So they'd been here, you know, for a very long time and everything. As far as the origin of, you know, our captive lineages that we keep today, that's, you know, a little bit different. But, yeah, they've been, you know, just talking about a friend of mine. He's an older guy. He brings green tree pythons and stuff. And his family owned like a, kind of a, one of those kind of roadside rock ball zoo type places in the 1950s. And they would be being coastals and all this kind of stuff that we've been all over now. But because of the 1950s, nothing ever bred. Nobody ever tried to breed anything. So if any ever laid egg was a complete accident, you didn't know what to do with them anyway. But I mean, these things are, the emphasis in those days was on having a pet more than anything. You know, at least in terms of the type of keeping of things that was, you know, collecting or having an animal that had it wasn't really in. Everybody, we had a real paradigm shift in the hobby where everybody now wants to breed everything all the time. And sometimes it's good and sometimes, you know, not as good. But I mean, for better or worse, that is virtually everybody tries to breed everything they have all the time. And that is, you know, really more an artifact in the last 20 years than anything. Prior to that, even when I was coming up, most people were just content to have a collection of rare and unusual stuff. And not everyone was trying to breed everything all the time. So we definitely transitioned from a hobby of a keeper, reptile keepers who want to, you know, damage your breeders, for sure. So yeah, this has been here for a long time. As far as, you know, what we keep today and everything, the oldest two subspecies are clearly coastal and diamond pythons. I've been here for quite some time and stuff. For the longest time, that was really about all there was jungle carpets a little bit later, iJ's, a fair bit later. You know, Darwin's, you know, brettles a little bit later still, Darwin's villains even later. You know, and it's a fairly recent type of story. So it's been a slow evolution in that regard. I was like really big on tracking the ancestry of lineage and all these things. And I happened everything and people like, well, how do you know, how do you know this isn't this? It's like, how do you know it's not mixed with this? It's like, well, if it's old enough, you can rule out a lot of things just by its age because there was a time before there even were iJ's in the hobby. You know. Okay. So if you have an animal, if you can trace your animal's pedigree back to prior to 1994, you can be very confident. There's no iJ mixing it up because the work in the iJ is mixing anything. You know, it's like they're just worth any because that's when the first, when the mid-90s before iJ's even entered the hobby. Right. So, you know, if your animal goes back to before the mid-80s or early-80s, it doesn't even need a jungle carpet in it. You know, I mean, it's like you get back to a point where if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's because it's duck. Yeah. There was all around the ducks. You know, it's like it really isn't much else. I mean, now it's a very different view because, you know, essentially all the subspecies and species are around it. Some number, you know, with one small exception and, you know, and everybody's kind of willy-nilly. Breeding everything to everything, so it's a whole different picture now. But the further back in time you go, not as convoluted. Still problematic in some cases, but not as bad. And there were a lot, there were less variables for sure. Did it change? Did it change? What? I was going to say, did it change the fact that people looked at carpet pythons as, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. But didn't they look at it all as variegata? Like, there was no jungles or coastals. There's just kind of... Yeah, even that is, well, I mean, there are different snakes. I mean, it's like anybody that has forward-facing eyes and serious Gothic vision can tell you that. I mean, it's like what we technically call them at a taxonomic level has changed so much and it just keeps changing. And now it's kind of one of those. You can't find hardly two people that agree on that issue. And people do what people always do. And they bring their own personal biases and everything a lot for the ride and stuff. I mean, so I'm very much a splitter. I mean, taxonomically speaking of two groups. You have lumpers and splitters. People want to make everything a second. People want to define very narrow little niches and everything and stuff. And I'm kind of on that end of the spectrum right now. Just going the same side, I keep everything pretty separate and stuff. And I have a lot of friends that are a little more on the hybrid friendly front who tend to not coincidentally take a little easier view of that. Oh, they're all the same. So they're not the same snakes, though. I mean, it's for the most part and everything. But taxonomically speaking, they were all considered to prior to 1984. Prior to 1984, they were all very good. All carty vitamins were very good. And in 1984, you had wells in Wellington first paper. And then we did another one in 1995 rather. So in Wellington wrote two papers that were not very well received. In fact, they were completely criticized and ignored at the time. And that was in '84 and '85. But they're the ones who basically set up the architecture of the various subspecies that we all still use today. At the time in the mid '80s, they were completely ignored. Everybody said, "This is madness." And they ignored them because the papers were kind of not very thorough, we'll say. Not a lot of, I mean, when you look at papers now, they're in taxonomy and things. There's a pretty high standard to be taken seriously. It's very, you know, if you look at what a modern species description, you know, anything written in the last 10 years, it's pretty exhausted. I mean, they make a pretty good day. The further back we start reading older species descriptions, even for descriptions for species that we still accept. And nobody really questions now. If you go up, I can read the earlier descriptions from the, you know, mid 20th century, early 20th century, late 19th century. They just get progressively, you know, poorer. So these are just like a paragraph and that's your species that's with not much evidence. Right. The welcome Wellington papers were kind of like that. And in the 1984 paper, they basically, in those two papers per 84, and it almost seemed like they're trying to reclass by damn near every Australian species of reptile. Not just pythons, but skinks and gummets, they're just everything. It was just this massive amount of, I mean, this stuff. So it wasn't really, it was not really why they accepted. It didn't become accepted in regards of the carpet pythons until the barkers did their early great book on Australian pythons in 1994. Pythons were a volume one Australia, in which case they kind of recognized the Welles and Wellington names from 8485 and elevated it, but demoted them to subspecies status. Okay. Okay. In Burkana was not a Welles and Wellington thing, and Bradley was not a Welles and Wellington thing. Those were separate and everything, but all the other, the Chania, the McDowell way, relegating very gaudage, just the top end forms and everything, and Metcalfi, those were all the Welles and Wellington names. So they recognized those Welles and Wellington terms at the level of subspecies. And since then, people have just kind of stuck with that and stuff. My own opinion is that Metcalfi should be elevated to a full species. Bradley always were a full species. And in Burkana, we should be a full species. The rest of it's much more closely related than that. But yeah, so there was a time when, you know, when the first jungles, first people got jungles in the United States, there were, I mean, maybe they knew they had been classified as jungles. I feel like they were at the same time, where there's kind of like rainforest carpet by thens, you know. And stuff, so. What about, like, I mean, back in those days, were there animals that, like, 'cause I think of animals like, say, Madam Blueberry or something like that, was there animals that were, that stuck out as far, or even with jungles, like you think of Covergirl and stuff like that, like what's, what's some of the history behind? Where did, what bloodlines do they stem from? Well, Covergirl wasn't, Casey Lazzick produced Covergirl and Willery Bader, I mean. Right. And there you go. That's a Lazzick jungle, whatever there was on, you know, I mean. Right, yeah. Produced by Casey yourself. So it's a Madam Blueberry thing we have had. Because these animals kind of showed up here in drips and drabs over a period of years, typically without a whole lot of provenance and stuff. It is very difficult to, you can't really ascertain, like, a locality for a U.S. bloodline or anything like that. Especially, you know, with jungles, that's less problematic because they're, you know, that regional form is confined to, you know, old growth rainforest in a very restricted area. There isn't, it's not, it's not that big of a place. I mean, it's like that whole area, it's not really, in terms of square miles. We're not talking about an enormous area. About that's even less. Coastal, on the other hand, have this enormous range. And stuff. And you see a huge amount of phenotypic variation throughout that rate. The very southern most animals, really very different from the more northern animals. Everything. And stuff. And over the years, there have been southern form coals. I mean, I've got the Brisbane coals I've produced this year and everything. The German line and everything. But that's, those, those southern form animals have contributed to the United States gene pool. You know, as it is now and stuff. I mean, but if you look at phenotypically, what we're looking at with the US coals is we're looking at a population that is mostly dominated by more northern coals. Stock where your animals are a little smaller or boldly patterned heads. They'll usually have red babies to the same extent as the southern animals do. And everything. There's no difference between sides. You know, coals aren't jungles here typically. It's all the same stuff. So what you've got is kind of this genetic mishmash of northern and southern animals. So we have, now we basically have a gene pool that is dominated by more northern animals. I'm talking about the just the generic US coastal bloodline stuff. But there's a little vestiges of those more southern animals in there. So we have animals that look phenotypically like northern animals, but for red babies. Sometimes with neo this kind of stuff. But it's, but it's, it's definitely the more northern animals and stuff that dominate our gene pool. At least the stuff that ever got established. The stuff. So. Yeah. Which are just in, just in general, would you say what? There's what? Maybe. Ten different line bloodlines of carpets. Twenty. Oh, I would have never actually even thought about that. Thought about it that way. You know, and the problem with that is there have been far more than that. Oh, I, right. That's fair to say. But what survives to the present day. I mean, it's because very few people keep track of what they breathe. They just get a jungle and they breathe to a jungle. They're not keeping track of what's what. Even some bloodlines that were well established. And some of the earliest bloodlines that you think would be the most numerous, you know, as far as representation in our gene pool are effectively gone. And so, you know, the oldest bloodline in jungles that everybody, that you can be sure of anyway, would probably go back to Larry Black, about 1984. It's like, good luck finding a pure Larry Black jungle now. I mean, it's because I sure can't. And effectively don't exist as they distinct entity. Now here was a distinct bloodline of jungles. But it's now basically gone. Not that those genes from that line are not represented because they very much are represented. But as a distinct entity, it no longer really exists because everybody bred everything to everything else. Newer bloodlines that showed up years later were bred to older bloodlines. Here it all got put in the giant meat grinder, basically. And now you've got a, perhaps a more genetically diverse gene pool, but you can't pick apart what's what anymore because nobody bothered to keep track of anything. Right. And that is the case with a lot of these things. There, you know, some of these, I mean, the lines that were around you can't find. And it's shocking how fast this happens and how fast people can kind of lose track of things and stuff. I got to breathe the, uh, a four-line brettel python. And let's go back to Sweden and, again, a tinderka forest. That's beautiful. The wild-type brettel bloodlines, they are absolutely stunning. There were never that terribly many of them produced to begin with. But, I mean, I brought mine, I got my pair from Hendrick out of the last clutch he produced in 2007. 2007 was not a long time ago, eight years ago. And I already, on a couple of occasions, have had people in Europe trying to get aid to export that bloodline back to Europe. Really? It's like because that quickly, you can't hardly find them. Why? Because everybody was too busy breeding them to make 88% brettel jags or whatever nonsense. And it's like a very quickly, it doesn't make very long before you can lose that kind of, before, you know, a bloodline with its own distinct genetic identity can be lost. It's not that brettel pythons aren't around, but it's not the animals that don't have some of those genes from that bloodline aren't around. But finding ones that are only from that bloodline that have never been mixed with anything else, that's a whole other story. And you find that kind of theme over and over again and stuff. So, first of all, I keep a couple of pairs of everything. I mean, if it's an important bloodline to me for whatever reason, I will make sure I have at least a couple of pairs. So, I was just thinking, "Well, if you don't have that anymore, you can't make that bloodline anymore. If you only have one, you probably got to keep a back up there and stuff." And that means people do that. Right. Yeah. So, this is kind of them. So, yeah, we've had a lot of, what's that probably a lot more genetic diversity than people realize? What, a lot of it is just kind of getting absorbed into, so people believe in bloodlines that don't actually exist. And a lot of them don't exist. So, you get very convoluted in everything. Yeah. I see all the time people mentioning, "Oh, it's a mix of this line and that line." It's like, "What is the same line?" It's like, "Yeah, it's a mix of those with the same bloodline." It's like, these aren't the same. And that happens all the time. It's like, things that people think are different are the same. And sometimes things that people think are one thing are actually more than one thing. So, teasing that apart can be a bit tedious and everything. But I don't know. We have a little more genetic diversity than people probably think, though. Well, I mean, even, I mean, there were a lot of carpet fights on bloodlines in Europe that nobody had ever bothered in the United States. Not that they couldn't. No one ever bothered to. And in the last seven, eight years, I brought a lot of those and started producing a lot of these other unrelated bloodlines. So, we've had three unrelated new bloodlines of jungle parapets in the United States in the last seven years that were unrelated to each other and are related to anything we already had here. And stuff. But you don't see, you know... It's just up there, if you really want to, you've got to ask questions. I mean, as far as, you know, U.S. culture gene pool will fall past the point where you can just take anything for granted. If you have any confidence in it, then you've got to ask a lot of questions. And you've got to really kind of do your homework and everything. Because it's, you know, where many, many years past the day, you could just buy a jungle carpet and say, "Oh, that's obviously a pure jungle carpet." And I was like, "Shmatt, you know, probably form more likely than it isn't, or any of this stuff for that matter. You really got to do your homework." You know, and it's hard to find out if something's a pure example of this particular subspecies, then trying to attribute that to a particular bloodline. It's, you know, obviously quite a bit more difficult. It's not that it's impossible. I've done a lot of that. But it is... It doesn't make it hard to buy anything. I mean, I had a hell of a time buying a new snake. It's very... It's almost like there was some crazy background shack on a snake. You can't just buy it. And it's like, "Oh, that's pretty up by that." I can't... You guys are a little bit more free to do what you want than me. So, you know, that's the... Oh, right. You guys don't know how frustrating it is. How many times I've seen someone put up like a... You know, it's always like a female jungle for some reason. I don't know why. But I always need a couple more than a half. And they're like, "Oh, you know, it's beautiful." And then you start, you know, asking a bunch of questions. It seems like you got a promising candidate. And there's always like that one ancestor that was a mystery snake or Michelle or something. Damn it. This is one of the dead. Oh, yeah. It's like a dead... It happens all the time. I've had to pass on so many, like, pretty spectacular animals and stuff for that reason. Because it was like, you couldn't play... Could it tell me to rest? And it's not to say that something is... Yeah. It's not what it's supposed to be. It's just that you can't... You know, knowing, you know... In my case, not wanting to mix me with some species up and everything. Knowing that something is... You know, just because you, you know... You can't verify all of its ancestors and everything to your satisfaction. It doesn't mean it's not at your jungle. It just means you can't verify it. It's like, "Well, it'll be." It's just you can't quite put it to rest. It doesn't make it a not at your jungle. And it's like... To me being kind of nit-bicky about that kind of thing. Really... Oh, it's very fresh. You're allowed to be nit-picky. I mean, when they're like, "I got it. It's a pure jungle. It was in a bin at a snake show with a mac-locked python and a boa constrictor." Oh, yeah. You know, that's... That's when you're like... Are you sure? You're like, "Maybe you want to go and check this." So it's like, you know, it's those people. Like, maybe you don't want to... Maybe you want to put non-confirmed jungle after that. You know, that's... Well, and, you know, you guys know you've been around doing this a while now. It's like, "What are the odds?" That's, you know, at this day and age. In the year of the 94% jungle jags and the rest of it, it's like... And all the rest. It's like, "What are the odds?" That's a pure jungle. Pretty much a zero, probably. We're very happy. I'm very right about hovering just above zero, probably. That it is that anything you got from a job or as a show or whatever. The guy you can't remember his name it was, it's on the show. Yeah, that's not going to fan out very well from him. It's like, you just can't... I can't do it. I usually, anything I've got, I've got at least 20 years. I can go back on just about anything, at least. Sometimes, you know, much further. I've got jungles. I can go back 30 years. There's a restaurant around 30 years. And staff on. A lot of throwing tricks. I like the mid-to-late 80s. It's like, "Well, that's..." You know, I suppose that you get people that will always kind of give you the... I want to argue with you. Well, how do you know? It's like... It's like... I didn't pick it up in the wild. You're right. I'm sorry. There's a picture. Yeah, but some of the people just want to argue with it. And even if you told them they did pick up in the wild, they still just... They argue with you still. It doesn't matter. I mean, they just want to argue. But once you didn't let it do it. Yeah, how do you know? I heard once on the argument is, how do you know that the... That somebody's pet brattle python didn't escape out until the wild and breed with, you know? You know? They didn't. They didn't. They destroyed. I heard that. Well, I've had more of these arguments than you guys can imagine. I just want to just like... Oh my gosh. That's probably a gadget part of my brain out with a melon scooper or something. I can't handle it. It's stupid. It hurts. I just can't even... You know, it's always like... You usually have those arguments. It always ends up with like somebody arguing about like, "Well, how do you know a bird a house used to go and pick up this snake and drop it?" It's like, "What are you talking about?" I mean, hey, that wouldn't matter anyway. But it's just like, I don't care what wild snakes do at all. There's irrelevant. It's like, I just, you know, I just want to know that like my jungle carpets with all their ancestors are jungle carpets. You know, that's pretty much it. I mean, how much they are. The rest of this is just ridiculous and everything. I guess, you know, you can, I guess the point is you can argue anything to, you know, just a completely irrational extent to the point where it just gets ridiculous and stuff. But the people who want to argue like that would do, they were just, they, the people just want to argue. And the goal is just to keep arguing and just, you can forget some more ridiculous stuff. No, I don't know if here we are watering off again, off subject a bit. But if you're, you know, there was a finite time. It's about 1994 or about the first time you became, I got my first ones in 1996, I think. Kind of makes me feel old. I bred them in 1997. Wow. Wow. Does that seem like a lot? It doesn't seem like, like the late '90s to me doesn't seem like that long ago. No. I was still in high school, so. Yeah, I always, I always forget when I talk to Owen, he's like so much younger than me. So it's kind of like... You're not that much younger. How old are you Owen? I'm 28. I'm 28 now. I'm 41, dude. Alright, alright, alright. Oh, shoot, 42. Yeah. Alright, so maybe I am. 1996, I was partying with Van Halen, you know what I mean? That's what I was doing in 1996. Owen was in high school. Not even, not even. I graduated in '04. Yeah, but you had that mullet there too. Oh, yeah, I did, I rocked it. I rocked it. Oh, man. I thought I was the figure from that flapper. You know what I mean? What the heck? Oh, man. Let me get the mullet wig you're going to wear at a carpet that's the entire time. I'd like to know how to take it off. It's got to be the, like the joker mullet wig or something. Yep. Yep. That'd be awesome. Party in the back, business in the front. That's right. That's right. I can't even imagine having hair at all anymore. I mean, that would be... I'd try, I'd rock a mullet if I could grow any hair at all anymore. I'd be happy to have it, really. See, Owen, these are the things that you have to deal with as you get older. I'll see you one day. Oh, man. Yeah. Losing hair where you want to have hair and gaining hair where you don't want to have hair. So true. It's not like a gorilla. It's like I have no hair in my head. I'm starting to grow big patches of them like that. Like, what the hell is that about now? I don't have to try my back. I shave my back or is that just due to me? Oh, my God. No hair on top, but now I'm trying to get these chad patches going on back now. The joys are getting old. I don't know how we got on the back hair, but some carpet bloodlines the back hair. The back hair. All right. Do more. So how important, I mean, if you're going to get into... I'm basing this question from our people that are new to carpets that are listening to the show. How important would you say is it if you're going to breed to have genetic diversity as far as different bloodlines? Would you say you should go and say you're going to breed breadels? Would you go and get two different bloodlines and breed them together? Or would you say, you know, would it be better to preserve the bloodline and, you know, breed the same bloodline together? I don't know. I mean, that slides into the discussion about inbreeding and inbreeding depression and stuff, and that is a little bit of a tricky one as well because inbreeding depression is largely kind of a... Not entirely, but it's a little bit kind of a... We as humans have kind of a cultural taboo against doing that, and we probably inappropriately extend that to animals a bit more than we should. There is, interestingly, nothing wrong with inbreeding. The only time it causes problems is that you end up with a high rate of homozygosity. You end up with animals that are all very similar and genetically, and you have a lot of where your homozygous are quite a few genes and everything. That is not a problem at all unless there's something in your genome that you do not wish to be homozygous for it and stuff. So if there's nothing bad in your genome, it really doesn't cause problems. I mean, Case and Point, look at the lalactic line Breville's biological. I mean, they're all basically genetically the same, and they've never had any problems. Again, a bunch of them, they are all rock solid. Because apparently there was nothing in there that was going to cause any problems. So even when breeding closely related individuals together, there's nothing bad that's going to pop out. That's not always the case. But I think we tend to look at it because we have this cultural taboo against it with our own species. Again, they kind of put a little too much emphasis on that as far as animals go and stuff. That said, I typically, if I'm going to work with a species or what have you, I try to get as much genetic diversity as I can because why wouldn't you? If you're going to be serious about it, so I have every bloodline of Breville that you can possibly get. I've got them all. I've got every bloodline of everything that you can possibly get basically. I mean, because why wouldn't I want to have those genes at my disposal? Right. Certain bloodlines have certain attributes and stuff. Right. Typically, you can -- not to understate the role of that and select a breed. You know, the four-line brittle side on this area is typically going to have no dark outline. So that's going to be breeding, but honestly, more importantly, you know, and stuff. You know? Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm not going to be a jail division at all, but I'm kind of accepted. Right? I would always be on the slide. If you all think being equal, if you can get to a diversity, why wouldn't you do that? Right. Because it's not serious. Anyway, and sometimes with some species, the gene pool is just too small. And sometimes it's not, you know, it's tossed prohibitive or it's not one of the feasible to have a genetically diverse group in which case you do the best you can. You know, why wouldn't you want to assemble with most of those species? Well, I'll save everything. Right. That's my philosophy. Right. It's kind of my philosophy, too. I would agree. Well, I mean, I like it because it opens up the options of if you want to expand on that bloodline, you can. If you want to outcross, you can. So, you know, you can do every one. I never mixed things together. I'm like, even within one line, like I've got the most beautiful, fully striped, like Palmerston jungles. And that's a pure jungle. I've got other jungles. They're not kind of a black and gold snake and like a bright yellow snake. But I really would like that stripe and a brighter yellow snake. But I can't bring myself to breed while I'm doing normal junk. I know where it can heal do it. You know, so I know it'll work, but it's like I just learned for some reason. I can't think of any of myself to do that for some reason. I don't know. Some of these things, like I never thought, you know, over the years, you know, that's something that's collection, the stake, and all the, you know, 20 something years to assemble now. And it kind of, things you never thought you'd be able to get your hands on ever, and then you have them or whatever. It's like, I never thought I'd have this stuff or three quarters to this stuff. So, I thought of like mixing it with something else that seems important to me for some reason. I can't like, especially like a locality type thing. Because once you do that, then it's, you really start the muddy of the water as quickly. Right. Right. It's got the fire to make some, you know, if people equate Palmerston jungles with being striped, and you breed a striped Palmerston jungle to a non, you know, just a normal jungle, and you make some brighter yellow striped jungles that are half Palmerston, very quickly those become pure Palmerston jungles, don't they? People tend to leave little bits off of information everything over time. They tend to omit things and everything as animals. I mean, mostly weird things, most of these, so it's not weird, I guess, this is the reality. But most of these animals that we have will go through multiple owners during the course of their lifetimes and stuff. And it seems that each time that animal gets sold, less and less about original information, it may have been pretty important to get passed along with it and stuff. So, you know, I just don't want to muddy the waters and stuff. But I really, I really would kind of, I don't know, I thought myself on doing that one every year. But so. Yeah. One day. Well, I don't have even have an ethical problem. I can't even make a really particularly good reason why it's just kind of, yeah, I just kind of like, I just so, I don't know. It's like the Brisbane Coastal, which I, Aaron just got a box of stuff. Today's got a few of those. This morning, I was like, I will never mix those with anything. And I will die an old man and those things will have never been mixed with anything. I even went so far as everybody has sold them this too. And this year, the first year, I made them all promise. So they would not mix them with anything else. I don't want to see those males get bred to anything. Just don't, I mean, finally this unique thing that is different and it's unique and it's kind of special. And then as soon as you do that, it's gone. And there's no real tangible benefit for having done it at all either. It's just not going to make you any magical stuff on it at all. It's just like agency that kind of go by the wayside. And there you go. There's a, there's a bloodline. Oh, there's another talk about bloodlines. Those snakes are old as dirt. Old as dirt. And they're almost gone. You talk about a bloodline has perpetually been on the edge of just not existing. Those things, I saw Paul, Paul's original adult pair of those, were actually his girlfriends from the late 1980s. And when I saw them, I saw them myself in like 2010. And these snakes were like just obscenely old. They were like, they look like someone left the air out of their tires. They look like Gaboon Viper. They were flat. Get it just old and flaccid and maybe giant heads. They just look wore out. Like that looks like a hundred year old snake. They've ever seen a really, really old snake. How they look. They just kind of have a, you can just kind of tell that thing's a million years old. They look like that. And they're never very many of them. And then everybody went a little jag crazy with, so for a while, even in Europe, everything that had a cloaca got bred to a jag. And certainly he goes with that but stood. And so now you have a situation where even though those animals, that is a European bloodline that goes way, way back, there are almost none of them. Animals died. They got bred to whatever. They only made what is a snake only lays one clutch of two clutches of life. And then it croaks and you bred it to something else. I mean, that kind of stuff happens. I'm literally going to have to send more of those back to Europe, where it's they came. So I've kind of got them reestablished again because they're a bad few. I literally only know of like three specimens from that bloodline left alive. And everything from that blood. And some of them sense on back. So there's a line that people tend to take for me for granted as far as bloodlines. Oh, that'll always be available. That'll always be around. That'll always be guys like you, Nick, will keep that going. And you hear that a lot. That kind of stuff. But that's not always true. And things can kind of go away pretty quickly and stuff. You know, if there's only a handful of something around them and everybody breathes into whatever and sells them, they get sold two or three times and no one keeps track very quickly, they're just gone and stuff. Right. You know, I mean, look, not having the whole species. One last thing they saw it done was by a thought. You know, hopefully soon, if I can get my hands on one, but you got a lead on some? No, I was hoping you would. Oh, yeah. I'll have plenty. Well, I'll have eight of them. But, I mean, that's the whole species that we had here that nobody kept their eyes in the prize there. That's basically all gone. There's like a small handful of extremely geriatric snakes around that might never read again. And then they'll read you. Yeah, you've got to always have to reboot a whole species practically. So, I mean, if you can move the whole species, just the apathy, basically, or nobody keeps track of anything, you can certainly lose a bloodline in a hurry. So, I'd encourage anybody on the bloodline issue. It's like, if that's something you think might be important to you, ask the questions early. When you're building your collection and everything, if that's something, if you don't care, you don't care. I mean, if it's just all about whatever you think is this pretty snake who lives in this box and all that stuff matters to you, then that doesn't, the next time. But it's, the time to ask questions is not after you bought something. It's before and stuff. And you kind of be, and every year it goes by that you don't get the answers to those questions. It gets harder to get those answers. People's memories stayed. It gets very difficult and stuff. You know, as time goes on and stuff. So, I get those questions answered. You know, you would want to, I see, I saw a lot of snakes. And hopefully, you know, meeting new people. And then you can buy them to 70 other and everything. And they're talking, "Oh, I wish I would put a little more thought into it before I bought this. I mean, if it's kind of this hodgepodge collection that doesn't make any sense, you know, of random things that they, you know, as they sort of get more serious and everything. I don't really want to breathe that because of X, Y, or Z and everything. So, I don't know. I don't know. Choose wisely, I guess. But that's probably going to be nice for you. Never buy a live animal on this bird the moment. Yeah. Unless you're meaty and it was a pair of blue tongue skinks at the last show. I was back for some damn reasons. I was back. I think I just bought those to get to make the exact buy as a little jealous. [laughter] Captain boring key islands, blue tongues. Yeah. I couldn't. No, I mean, it's like just choose wisely. If lineage is something that matters to someone, they should figure that out before. Take the time to ask the questions and stuff and beforehand. If it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter. But if it does, otherwise you kind of end up quickly with a whole bunch of stuff you don't know what to do with. And then later on, you're trying to sell this to that because you kind of, you know, didn't think it through as well initially. Right. Yeah. And stuff. So, me, I have the opposite problem. I can't figure out what to get rid of. I might have to be damn safe. I don't know what to, I can't get rid of anything. There's nothing, I can just, oh, I can probably get rid of that. I hope that's just kind of, everything is, it's all too precious at some point. [laughter] That's the, yeah. I got to send down to your cheese. I got to, I've got to get, just like the mathematics of it. I think I have to get rid of a bunch of adult breeders' sakes. But I can't think of them other than like one male granite, I thought, oh, I can hear it. But it's like, I don't know what else I can, part with. Yeah. Well, it's hard because you need this for this thing or that thing or whatever. You're just bloodlining it up, bloodlining. You need to keep, it gets very time and space consuming. What I tell people to do is, and oh, it makes fun of me for this. I do. When I was first getting into this, and back in 2008, I guess it was, I decided I wanted to work with carpets, and I tried to find the people that had the best examples of that species or more for whatever it was, and tried to get animals from them. Depending on what it was, but I planned out what I was going to do. I wanted to do this, so I would need that. I wanted to make this, so we need this and we need that. That way, it's a little more thought into it. Whether it's morphs or whether it's species or whatever, you know. That kind of event. Nobody really ever got in much trouble thinking about something too much, did they? By putting too much thought into something and really doing the whole thing, it rarely leads to problems. It's the opposite to the other problems, isn't it? And not thinking enough before you do something that tends to cost you some problems. Like thinking about it and having a plan and everything. I mean, I don't get some of that stuff. I mean, I don't know. I find if I make a 0.24 command, but I didn't want to go to it, because some other variable will pop up in these three years before I did my change thing. Right, that's happened. But I mean, with more related stuff, it's probably a little more. You're talking about stuff, and I don't mess with that stuff also. Yeah, I don't know. Think about it before you make a move, I guess. Think long and hard about it and make the best choice you can. Getting the best example of whatever you can, whether that's the best example because of its physical attributes or because of its lineage or whatever the variable is what you find most important. That's always the best policy, isn't it? Isn't it? Don't you always want to get the best you can? True. Yeah, it's a maze upon the people. I mean, if you look at only two people, two kinds of people, and there's almost no in between, they're just people that want the best example that they can possibly get and price it in a matter. They want the absolute best specimen of whatever it is for whatever reason. They want the absolute best, and then you get the other end of that where they want the absolute cheapest. Never get anybody in the middle of the middle. They look like the mid-grade, like they have a combination of quality and size. It's always like they want the cheapest thing you'll possibly sell them or the finest thing you'll possibly sell them. Exactly. I don't know. I mean, it's always, but usually the difference in price between like the even things that are graded, the difference in price is not tremendous. It's always better to get the best example. It's been an extra 100 bucks on the best one from the best clutch. That is always, because eventually if your goal is to breed these things, I mean, that's going to make a huge difference in everything, as does the ancestry and all of that, which is glad to see you kind of becoming a bigger thing with carpet python. People, so that's becoming a thing now. Yes. Yeah, it seems to me, I don't know what you guys think, but it seems to me that this is the progression of how carpet python works. Carpet python keeper's work. It seems like they come in and they're into like the flashy, you know, the morphs or whatever, jungle. I mean, when I was getting into it, it was jungle jags and diamond jungle jags, and they were like, you know, the hot thing and everybody wanted one. And then all of a sudden when you're into it for a while, then you have like this, I don't know if it's you mature or whatever. Then all of a sudden you're like, well, maybe coastal carpets are cool. Maybe they don't have to be, you know, this screaming yellow and black. Oh, wait, there's a jungle carpet that's like that. And then, you know, I mean, I was telling, I was actually I told you to Ellen, but I was telling Nick. I can't, for the life of me, understand like Darwin carpets, why people aren't just going freaking crazy for them. I can't get it, because the one that Nick sent me today is fabulous. Oh my God, this thing is crazy, you know. Well, I mean, some of that, I think, is that being a rare subspecies, they're just more expensive than when they're, you know, a few hundred dollars or whatever, like everything else. And people will be pleasantly also, you know, they're, you know, from 30 feet away, they look a little bit like IJ's, which are a lot less expensive. Once you've got them in your hands, they're obviously not IJ's and everything is very different when you're actually got them in your hand and everything, but it's like there's a big price discrepancy and everything. And they imagine like, and that's what very little selective breeding at all. I mean, I can't believe how variable they are. I've got crazy, fully striped ones that would, that are basically pure Darwin tiger. They are completely striped from it. I've got lots of them and lots, but a good handful of them and stuff. And this is like just a very first generation of any sort of selective breeding. And you kind of wonder, you know, two, three, four generations in the line. Well, look at some of the IJ's are produced now. I'm not like there's a million clutches of crazy IJ's, but there are people in the United States now that are working with multi-generation cats or red lineages that produce consistently pretty extreme looking IJ's. No one's done that with carpets. No one's done that with inland carpets for that matter either yet. You kind of wonder, you know, what three generations of careful selective breeding going to do and you're going to get it with animals that are just outrageous. And I hope so. Yeah, there's a picture of an inland in the complete carpet book and it's one from Australia. I can't remember who took the picture, but it just goes. It just showed me the potential of what and I know I'm opening up now so I can get that. I have it right here. The one of the only queen's one tiny dress. I think it might be. Yeah, it's like at the bottom of the page. Hold on. Of course, I can't find it. Anyway, while he's searching Nick, I got texted a question from buddy. And he has you and Eric beat number one because he's 47. So. It's a little fan contest. It is. Apparently. The second question is he wanted to know if you know of where the origins of the jungle line from BPI kind of cropped up at. There's another one. There is no such thing as a BPI line. Okay. They assembled a big group of jungles from all the other people who are pretty jungles in the United States. Entirely domestic. There is no BPI line. They produced a fair. So there isn't one. I mean, they got. Jungles from Casey and they had Larry Black and all that other stuff that was around at that time. They assembled a really nice of that stuff and that is there is no they just get their own line of jungles ever. And so really. One of the most common bloodlines you see referred to DPI line jungles doesn't really actually technically exist. And stuff. I mean, if you again, if you use the definition of, you know, well, you know, they select to be bred them. Or, you know, and use that kind of a, you know, so maybe that in that sense, maybe, but in a genetic sense, no. So. Wow. It's the same thing. I mean, all the other established bloodlines, they gathered up some good stuff and quite a number of them and held a bunch back and started their colony of them. So. Yeah. Wow. Cool. That's, but that's what that's again, you know, what's. Back to the what's a bloodline, I guess. Would that be the same thing of what we see with you see all the time, and Penn coastal, which is really a lamp key line coastal right. I'm going to actually trace those back for Michael. Yeah. So yeah, I found the. Michael got those snakes from a friend of his in Texas who got them directly from VPI VPI gone from Amy's circle who got him from boy. Thank you. Wow. 1980s. Well, there you go. That's where those come from. I mean, it's really not hard to figure these things out. Yeah, I mean, people refer to them and like it's just, but that's a lot more complicated to say to people just like and then coast. Well, I mean, but that that line. Of those striped coastals goes back that far late 80s ish at least, and it might go back further than that. But Lloyd Lemke's been dead for quite a number of years. And that's something else that I've got a bunch of stuff, not a bunch, but several bloodlines, the things that you go back and hit a literal dead end because you. You get back to a point where that person, you know, next person you could call on that chain of custody is dead. And you can't talk to them anymore. So Lloyd, you know, they didn't spontaneously magically appear at Lloyd Lemke. I'm quite sure he got them from someone else. But you can't ask Lloyd any questions because he's been dead for like 17 years or whatever. So you can't really get back. It does kind of hinder that, you know. It is hard. And then that just happened with, you know, several of these things that you started getting back, you know, and people pass away and think that sometimes it's hard to get back there. And beyond that, I mean, you get into getting this complete speculation and stuff. So it's better than not, you know, you might have some guess as to where the next steps and that process came from, but you can't really ever know that kind of effectively. So that's why I was just calling me Lemke coastals because that's as far back as you can possibly get, I think, with that. It doesn't be any way to get past that with certain confidence anyway. Sometimes you might have some suspicion, but you can't really get any solid information beyond that. So that's kind of that thing of that. Right. Yeah, I found the picture. It's on page 74. It's for anybody that ever questions why carp looking Python, in my opinion. This example would be one of them. I mean, it's I'm actually driving somewhere. It's an adult stuff. Really in captive lineage photo by Stephen. Oh, yeah. By who? Stephen Sapphire. I know I've heard you talking about. Yeah. Now they've got a ton of potential. Can you imagine, like, if all the effort that went into selectively breeding jungle carpets to be bright yellow, because jungle carpets are kind of. You rarely find it bright yellow jungle carp in the wild. You find, like, black and gold snakes. You find brown and gold snakes. You find, you know, all kinds of things. You don't really find neon yellow and jet black snakes very often, you know. Right now. Think of all the energy that went into selective breeding now that allows us to just take for granted that most jungle carpets are made bright yellow and black. If you put that much selective breeding pressure in your cat to gene, pull to make a sealant carpets blue, imagine what would be possible. Beautiful, there's blue and orange snakes, because they've got as much propensity to be blue as a jungle carpets. Blue is a jungle carpet that doesn't allow it to be yellow. That's just a matter of time, and just it hasn't been enough time for selective breeding and enough focused effort. The jungle carpets are kind of a weird thing, and they're kind of a weird, single-minded obsession for one trait, only yellow. And that was it and everything. And, you know, the inland's a little more subtle than that, but, you know, inland carpets have just as much propensity to be blue. Brettles are just as much propensity to be red. I mean, there are all these things that have a ton of potential for selective breeding. It's really largely intact, with a lot of these forms and stuff. If you look at what they are, they're looking at the same books. Look at all those pictures of wild jungle carpets. They don't look anything like these neon yellow and jet-black things that we all have. Yeah. You know, it's like, they come in a lot of different colors and everything. Rarely do they look quite that black and yellow in the wild, anyway. But that's what we've been able to do with enough time and generations. I mean, we could do the same with the inlands with the blue and the red and the brettles. You could do that with all of those things and stuff, given enough time. And I would like to -- I do hope we see more of an emphasis on selective breeding and everything. It seems everybody got a little more crazy. I mean, yeah, maybe a little bit more crazy, too. We certainly all have to one extent or another. And when you get too more crazy, it's like a selective breeding kind of goes by the wayside. Because the more of it is kind of like a one-step selective breeding thing, isn't it? Oh, this is just one gene and does this whole magical thing. And it's -- you know, and it kind of -- you know, had we not had carpet mutations pop up, so we would just -- the selective breeding of these forms would probably be a little further along. Because, you know, there's only so much cage space and so much time and effort to go around. And if more of it goes towards breeding mutations, then less of it goes for anything else. And that's just, you know, the map of it and stuff. So it'd be nice to see a little bit more of that, you know, done and everything. I mean, I've got a million -- I held back normal Darwin's. They're almost hypo looking. Just -- I don't even care if they're had albino. But I've got several that are literally almost -- they're so reduced and black. They almost look kind of hypo-y looking and stuff. And I've got just -- I guess it's striped ones. There's a lot of potential there to still some unique phenotypes that aren't morphs and stuff. And that's -- to me, that seems like something we're doing. >> Yeah. Yeah, we were commenting -- I was telling you the other day, Nick. We were commenting about, you know, just looking at your caramel and caramel jags. You have on your site, you know, it's just insane where you've taken that -- I mean, it is a morph. But still, I mean, you're selectively breeding and the results are just insane, you know? >> Yeah, it's like even if you're a morph person, like, I think some people just think that morphs are magic. >> And they're not magic. Well, I mean, it's almost like, oh, all I need is this gene, right? And that's it. It's like, well, there are just -- there are countless genes that code for color and pattern characteristics. You know, that Jaguar gene is one allele. It's not even the only allele at that low, because it's one of two alleles. It's one half of one little -- it's like a tiny little thing. And all those -- it's like, yeah, that one gene might do this one thing, and that's great. But, you know, all those other multitude of genes that code for color and pattern all have an effect. That's where the variation comes from. The Jag gene does the same thing in everything, basically. But all that variety -- all those other genes are for color and pattern. All those other things have a huge say in what the ultimate, you know, kind of phenotype of that animal is. And so to put everything all on the mutation and ignore all the other genes for color and pattern just seems to be doing a big disservice. I mean, you can apply selected breeding principles to morph stuff as well, and you will end up making better-looking examples. I mean, jags vary tremendously. Hell, we've all hatched jags, we're even sure if they're jags. I mean, I've hatched a few weeks. Yeah, I know. I still got one. I don't know if it's a caramel or a caramel. I don't know. Like, I can go back and forth. I'm not even sure. I mean, and, you know, caramel is another one that is hugely variable. But it's those other traits. The caramel gene is slightly doing exactly the same thing in all of those animals. It's all those other color and pattern that are having a big effect on how that is ultimately expressed and what you're in that web. So if you can selectively breed, you can make it better. You know, there's nothing you can't make better with selected breeding. Yeah, I mean -- Yeah, I mean -- Sometimes it's -- Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. I was going to say -- I was going to say -- If you can't encounter intuitive, a bred animal is, you know, on paper like, okay, this animal has these attributes and they should complement this well. Sometimes it doesn't. And you don't keep doing that over and over again, though. It's like sometimes it gets -- And stuff. It's, you know, sometimes a bit of trial and error, I guess. But you can improve the looking consistency, especially with things like car molds and jags. It tend to be pretty -- they vary quite a bit and everything. By applying some sound selected breeding principles, you can kind of better your chances because you have a look in your mind that you want them to mostly look like by and large and everything. If you have a graded scale of, you know, some of these things are going to be off the charts, some are going to be about average, some are going to be below average. Obviously, you'd like to focus on the better end of that, you know, and everything. And you can definitely better your odds by doing that. This year, just wait no match with this year. I've finally got to the point where I should make no car molds at all. It should be all supers all the time now. From the best you've ever saw in your life, bred to other supers. And I've proved them all to be supers by breeding independently to normal last year. So now I can just completely go crazy, breed super to super. And I can know mathematically they're all supers by group. And then I'm really curious to see what a clutch of like 20 supers looks like. Because that range of variation, there's always like the outliers, you know. You know, there's anybody that breaks carpets. There's always those kind of outliers in terms of appearance and everything. It's like, well, you might have a few that are kind of below average. You've got a bunch that are about what you expect. There's always that one or two in the clutch that are just even beyond the next level, you know what I mean. The carpet is really good about having those cute outliers in every clutch. Well, it's like, well, you know, I've held back all those outliers that were these super extreme, super caramel jags and they were the crazy extreme end of that spectrum. When I breed them together. So there should be a couple in that clutch there that should be the outliers from that clutch that should literally play glow in the dark where you turn the lights off. Right. And then you hold those back. And then you just endlessly repeat this process. But this is, we end up with these kind of really extreme looking animals and stuff. I love, I'm looking forward to that, Morgan. I've read stripes, super caramel jags, stripes, super caramel jags. I don't even care about losing a 25% of it. Maybe even one hash, but whatever. The 75% of the doo hash are going to be awesome. Yeah. Holy shit. Great. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I've never, I've never bred Jagdoo Jagdoo Jagdoo. I've never, I just, a couple projects, I ended up with the only males I had were also Jagdoo Jagdoo carried. So the only examples male I have that is an adult is also a Jagdoo Jagdoo Jagdoo Jagdoo Jagdoo. So I should produce the examples and I will produce multiple super caramel looses. Because from those two clutches from super caramel jag, the super caramel jag, I did two clutches. They're all going to be super caramel. So anything, it's white and all will be a different caramel super jag. What? I don't know. I'll take a picture. I'm never right. Yeah. I imagine this be a white train wreck, like usual, but I mean, it's more magical. I don't think I'd be able to tell, but I'd be surprised if I could tell the difference. What happens in ball pythons? What happens when you breathe? Like, what happens in ball pythons when you do that? Say you're breathing an axanic to something leucistic. Is it just going to stay white or is it going to change how it looks? Pretty much. There have been a few times where people have bred looses that combine with other morphs that actually in weird scenarios put pattern back on the white snakes. Really? That's seven several times. If you know what you have a ball python morph, you made a blue eyed leucistic clown, which it looked like a pure white snake, and then you put a black light on it, and you could keep the clown pattern with a black light. It's weird. That's kind of cool. When you do this in a normal room light, it looks completely normal, but the black light showed, like, there actually was a pattern in there, but you could see it. Oh, wow. UV. Oh, yeah. And there have been a few of them where it actually put some fake patterning while she put back on the snake and stuff. But, you know, to the carpets, it's going to be larger than relevant because the snake's not going to live long enough to really get a light ball from the black light. I don't have to look at it. You mean this isn't going to be the secret thing that gets... Stop it. Not me, man. I need to talk about that. Yeah, that's another one. You just want to bang your head in the wall over and over again. I lose brain cells every time we have this discussion. Okay. No. Unlung. Nick, every time we do a show, we talk about that, and we say that, you know, it's not going to work. It's not going to happen. You know, we get about five emails that say, "Yeah, well, you know, it works." I go like that. Yes, I'm positive. Yes. It's madness. It's madness. It's madness. I don't... It's like... And the idea of thinking, "Well, if all mutations are... All these morphs effectively are the same thing." And that they are defective broken genes that don't work right, basically. They're a bunch of broken genes that don't work right. And in the JAG case, like, "Well, it's so broken that it literally... Two copies of it literally kills a snake and it can't even go out of here." Because it's suffocated because of the lunges in the mouth. Somehow adding... They think about that, like, okay, one copy of this gene has some side effects. Two copies of it kills your dead detract. The thought that adding a different broken gene on top of that would somehow fix the fatal flaw in the other two broken genes? Like this. Oh, you know, a chick that's genetically defective, virginically, people... More! Another broken gene. If we could make this even less fit for survival, that would somehow fix the... Yeah. Yeah, it just... It doesn't ever work that way. Ever. But I get... You're always like, "Oh, you think like a..." Yeah, if I put it up there, you think someone will say, "I'll post the picture." And like, "Do you think the super caramel ones will do better than the..." No! No! No! It might kill them faster, if anything, but it ain't gonna come out longer. I mean, you could see a number of scenarios where we're adding another broken gene on top of a bad combination. It might make a situation worse, but it's never made... It ain't never been a case where it made it better. You know, it just doesn't work that way and stuff. I mean, I have seen, like with JAG, I have seen other JAG combination where there seems to be what almost seems like anecdotally to be a higher incidence of neurological... of the normal JAG stuff seems to be more prevalent in some combinations, but that, that at least makes sense. You're adding another broken gene on top of the other broken. Now, this makes it, by definition, more broken. You know, it's... But my JAG don't have the narrow. They're completely different than everybody else's JAG. Oh, my bloodline... Are you having time to see that one, though? My bloodline's not... They're all from the same animal! All of a sudden from one snake, like every single person from one snake, every alpine who has been from one snake, it's like, you know... Somebody got me on... My rough scales are unrelated to everybody else's rough scales. I'm like, "What?" They were only like, "Oh, my God, I don't know what to deal with." I have heard that one. I have heard that one a number of times. I've been offered on some unrelated rough scales. Like, get out of here. There was one! Stop it! Yeah. It's just like, you know, it's just not even... You know... No. I'd be very dubious of that one. They take a lot of convincing there, you know? And stuff. But it's... Again, there's a population where all the rough scale pythons on the planet affect a period of something from 3.2 while it collected individuals. And don't seem to have any problems. No. Not that I've heard of. And they've been breathing like... No, they'd be... Well, mine don't. I mean, I'm like, "I know. I've been waiting for yours." I don't want to get my hopes up. The female looks like she's grounded. I've never seen the male go near this thing. Like, they're just most disinterested. She's producing sperm. She's ready to go. I think she's just full of really large follicles. And it's like, you can just tell if the male would just slip in there for one second. It would just be done deal. But I just don't think you just see the dead. He's not sufficiently motivated. Uh-huh. Breakout. Yeah, it killed, you know, it was like a female rough scale, full of follicles. Uh, doing nothing. She's kind of like grabbing the rough scale pythons. I don't know. Oh, she's huge. She's absolutely not huge. She's not a big snake. But she's full of follicles. I mean, she looks... If you picked her up, you'd think that's a gravid snake. You think she's gravid. But that male's never gone near that thing. So now I'm self-consciously hoping that maybe he did go near or at least a lot. I'm just liking myself off, but I don't know. We'll see. I really like that. I hope you like it. Don't you have one? I have. I have two. But the boys. The boys. Yes. Why don't we not work on a deal? Didn't you owe me a bunch of money? I'm worth it. [laughs] It's a little difficult. Fairly young. You're only about a year and a half old. Yeah, don't matter. I'm breathing. I'm breathing. I'm breathing a year and a half. I need another one. Mine's kind of a death. What? I'll merely get to him. I'm one of them and he's kind of like, "Oh, there's a thing, man. He had a backup plan. Like, I'm going to go get one male." I'm like, "What if he's not very motivated?" Sometimes that happens. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes that happens. Yeah. That's up in the... That's why I tried to have like 2.2 of anything. I'm really serious about the rough gales, you know. Because I got minor out of the very first clutch in the US. So they're kind of expensive. I just like, you know, it doesn't... It doesn't... It doesn't be buying like multiple pairs of them or anything of it. You know, at that initial price point and everything. Kind of at the same time a lot of other things came up too. So... Yeah, I need another male. I don't need another female, but... I always laugh people like, "I'll kill you, my boy." I always laugh people like, "I want to buy like 1.3 or 1.4 or something." It's like, "Yeah, what do you do that one male doesn't do anything." It's like, "I've got like extra males of everything except, you know, sometimes you can't like, you know, like the albino all of a sudden. I've got 1.2 visual albino. I've got other male albino. But they're just wasn't gonna be able to get. And they're, you know, kind of expensive. So it's almost like you're gonna have to do it that way. But it's never possible. You know, I keep that or I either... Keep another one back or whatever. I mean, next year I'll have another pair of all those... I have a couple of lines, a lot of extra pairs of all of them, because I held them back out of the first class, just my insurance policy. But yeah, now we'll talk. You got two male ruffies, right? I don't have any confidence in this guy. Unless she produced the clutch eggs or something, surprise the heck. And then you got two of them. Not all of them. What? No one knows what's going to happen. Yeah, I know. Oh, man. I like them. How big are your males? They're both on small rats. They're on small rats? They're dull. Weeming rats, weeming rats. They're really big, dude. They're on medium rats? No, not on medium rats. Weeming rats. Weeming rats. My adult males probably just went barely on a weeming rats. They'd be really big. They're small snakes. I have minor monsters then. Yeah, they're ready to go. We should have known that before this season. I could have got one high and probably had a better outcome. I guess I did know you had them. I just forgot all about it. Yeah. Yeah. You need to put that in a box with Eric's helmet hair and male. I could do that. You know, Eric doesn't need to know that I could count on my hair. I'm going to have a box and match some things up there, you know? Yeah. This wife will let me in. I'll just go grab it. He'll be fine. There you go. There you go. Yeah. You got any other bloodline related questions or anything, I guess? No, I think we're okay for now. Back on for various other stuff. Eric's going to have to get you on for the roundtable, even though he's trying to... Thank you. We won't do it. I've been saying this for years. How do you teach yourself on the roundtable? I was like, "What the..." It's like, "You have to look on the roundtable. We won't do it." We're only wanting to get on there with Dave. It's like... I thought that'd be funny, but it seems to kind of disappear late later. Yeah. It's kind of like... I don't know. It's like... Nick is kind of like... I don't know. He's like kind of guides me in this whole reptile thing. And it's like arguing with your dad. You know what I mean? He's like one year's dad. He's like one year younger than me. I know, but I just feel like... I can't argue with him. Dude. Now, while at the roundtable, and I'll come on and I'll get Paul to come on too. I'm like a grandfather figure. Oh, there you go. Everyone's arguing with their idols. They're like, "Okay." Yeah. Yeah. It's all just friendly panthers and arguing. Yeah, I know. It's like just... It'd be funny. It'd be funny. Yeah. Now, there's any... Yeah. The bloodline stuff. It's very difficult with the jungles and the kostles. I know exactly. You can kind of... The kostles especially because they do stretch back even further still. And it gets back to the point where it's very difficult. And stuff. But a lot of that stuff. But if you get back far enough, it's pretty obviously a coastal carpet because there wasn't anything else to mix it with. Because it literally predates everything else. You know? It's not obviously a diamond coastal integrate or something because it goes like a mid-80s. You'd probably be pretty confident that's what it's supposed to be. You know? 'Cause it really wasn't anything prior to that to mixing with it anyway. You know? Inlands and stuff. You've got two unrelated bloodlines that are not disputed and everything. There's... There may be a little other stuff here and there. But there's a Darwin that's kind of a mixed bag. But obviously all of them are with one exception are somewhat related because you think there's the albino gene that's one common ancestor. Right. So it's very relatively closely related there. And stuff. So there you have it. Cool. Very cool. Awesome. So I don't know if you had to go. I know you said you only had limited time. Yeah. You know what time it is. I'm actually sitting in front of them just being out. I play at pool every Tuesday night with my father for like the last 20 years. I'm like a team. I'm a billiard team of sorts. Probably being the old man for like every Tuesday night at 7 o'clock for 20 years now. Pretty much. I told him to let me flash the rotation because I have the energy to do with everything. So it'd be a problem with that. Right. Cool. There you go. Awesome. All right. Well, I guess I've been getting here and getting my thing done and everything. But you talking to you boys? Likewise. Yep. All right. Give me a call on that rough kill tomorrow. I'm totally serious. I got to give you a call anyway because I got to lay up all the stuff that I want to buy from you in 2015. So I want to waste. Yeah. I heard you in better condition because you got something I need now. I know. That's what you call a letter to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an all of a sudden you found it away like oh man. I don't got to get in here at the money. I don't know. I'll get out of the mail. He's got some. Oh, man. Yeah. These are the things you're looking at. See. Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe I did not realize you had two that would have been ready to season. I'm totally kicking myself. Yeah. Yeah. I kind of am too good. I would have liked to send them to you. I love them. Yeah. Yeah. I love those things. They're neat snakes. It's like having a bull snake or something. It's just on a branch. It's kind of. I really like them. But it's a very frustrating one like you spent no small amount of money at the time. You know, very snakes and the mail just doesn't want to do anything. It's like, aren't you kidding me? The female is like a totally hard feeder. The female has never eaten a rat in their entire life. One of those snakes like it ate mice. It leaped African soft food rats like crazy leaped birds. Is there anything I have ever put in there except a rat? Which is of course what I want to do. It's not like a snake so it's not like a huge deal. You know, but it still looks like man. Maybe like one of those you got to put some extra work in to get the thing at the sides and everything. This is all to make it easier than the mail. There's nothing. I'm not doing anything. And they don't combat and I don't have another one anyway. And the mails don't fight anyways. You can't even use that. Like, you know, you have a poorly motivated carpet python breeder that just, you know, isn't getting the job done. A little mail combat is a huge, huge thing. You know, a huge tool in the arsenal to kind of get them motivated really is effective in everything. Maybe species of no combat but like inland carpets? Meh, they don't do that really. They can't. I don't do that. It's like you can't. I love the species of combat because you can use that kind of a... Especially with like little virgin mails and stuff that aren't very well seasoned yet. It's like kind of like to fire into their ass pretty effectively. You get the job done but back so with the running. But yeah. Alright boys, I'm going to get running. Alright, we'll talk to you again later, right? Cool. Alright. See you next time. See you next time. We should throw out their check out Nick's website, inlandreptile.com. And you also can file him on Facebook, inlandreptile. If you want to see what Nick has going on. Some awesome stuff for sure. Speaking of awesome stuff. Well, today I got a box of snakes. From Mr. Mutton. Which contains some stuff from not only Nick but from Paul. That UK pythons. Which I'm pretty excited about. I got an Exanic Zebra female. I've been talking about that. But dude, let me tell you something. The Exanic gene is very, very cool. And carpet pythons for sure. You love it. Yeah. I love it. I want more. It's like this is what I was talking about with. I said I'm going to have to call Nick because I'm sitting here the other day. And I'm looking at my Exanic Jag cult. And I'm looking at my super caramel Jag. And I'm like, I can't read you two together. Even though I really, really want to. Like I painted myself in a corner. So I'm like, I'm going to call Nick and get another Exanic. I'm like, crap. It's funny. So it's like, you know, and you bastard with your like, look at all the pretty things I got in the box. You got that Exanic. Would you get a zebra today? Exanic Zebra. Yeah. Which is looking. Like it's pretty cool. Like, I think you should bring it here and leave it here for, let's say, three years so that I can properly examine him over the course of his life. Well, any of them back. It's a female and she's going to be breeding in probably 2016. Jesus Christ, how big is this animal? She, I mean, she's eating ween rats. I thought it was like a baby baby. How big was this dog? No. Huh? Oh, yeah. It was a big box. It was a big box. No. It was a big box. Yeah. Oh. But, uh, hopefully she'll be going with an Exanic zebra jag. To me. Exanic zebra. Exanic zebra jags, Exanic, and, yeah, that's it, right? No. Exanic jags, Exanix, which we need crosses. Exanix zebras, Exanix super zebras, Exanix zebra jags, super zebras. Oh, my gentle lord. Yeah. Wow. That's a cool project. She's a female, aren't you potentially making double head snows this year? Uh, yeah. And don't you already have an albino zebra somewhere? Uh, I have an albino zebra jag, yes. Couldn't potentially you make super zebras that are double head snows at some point somewhere, or zebra jags that are double head snows? Yes. Wow. My, my, my, haven't we put them together? High end, baby. Stop it. Stop it. Because you know what? You do things like this that prove to me that you are, like, on a really high level. When you say, "I'm all high end," you take all the, you suck all the fun out of it that I have with it. But, like, you know, when, like, you, like, when you do things like you trip and I'm like, "High end, baby." It's like, you know, you ate, you have to stay on my level so I can make fun of you. If you go above me, then that's, look, it's jackass. So. Yeah. You're, you're really like, "Damn, he is high end." Damn it. Oh, you already have that question where it's like, you're like, you're like, "I think you'd like Brisbane." And I'm like, "I don't know. I never really told them." And you keep showing me pictures of your Brisbane. And I'm like, "Damn it. Damn it." Yeah. I might have to buy these. And then, of course, we have the discussion with you and I had the discussion before the show went live where I'm like, "You think Nick would disown me if I'd put a first thing to a jag?" And he goes, "I wouldn't think he disown you. He'd just kind of be shocked that you did it." And I'm like, "Yeah." And I'm going to lean. After our conversation, I'm going to lean towards disownment after this episode, okay? Damn it. Only if you bought him in the first year. You didn't tell me you made everybody promise again. Yeah, I forgot about that. With the game, you're trying to put me in. Yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah, but I mean, I don't know. The locality thing to me is like, I kind of look at it like it's locality thing with contros, you know? Yeah. I don't really know if you can prove or if you'll ever be able to prove, because there's no real provenance that shows that these animals came from, you know, Brisbane or Port Douglas or it would be hard to prove because of legality. You know, so, but I still look at it as that type, you know? So to me, when you have something like a Brisbane coastal or a Palmerston jungle, to me, I don't know. If you breed it to something else, it kind of takes away the, I'm kind of like Nick, where it kind of takes away from the point of having said animal. You know what I mean? I don't know. But also, I guess, if you look at it, if it had a specific phenotype, like the striping thing. I don't know. It's a hard thing for me because I really like striped jungles. So I'm sure maybe at one point, I probably crossed that. But I'm not going to make it like these Palmerston and striped jungles. It's just going to be these striped jungles. But you're also going to breed your Palmerston and Palmerston together to just, and then you'll produce more Palmerston, and those will be the ones that you will advertise as straight of Palmerston line jungles. Right. Exactly. So that's you. And that's your, and that is the sound thing you and I have talked about this before, how you kind of, you love to toe this line. And I like to call it the Eric's crazy son of a bitch line. And this line, you wander between morph and mixing and locality and purity. You're just like Nick, and you get everything. Bloodlines of this, pairs of this, pairs of this, pairs of this. And you get it so that every year you can decide whether you're going to make pure stock to throw out in the market, or you're going to mix and have fun with it. Yeah. Or you breed, you breed the morph to, I mean, right, to a nicer. Pretty much out cross to shit in your own, in your own room with your own projects, not even have to go outside of writing, if you wanted to. Yeah, it's the point. But you're not above doing the crazy thing just because it would look cool. Like I sent you my ivory jag, and she's not, she's diamond coastal jungle. I sent her to you to breed with your ivory jungle because we're hoping that we'll get whitish ivory looking jag things. Yes. Much, much, much, much, much, much, much, it actually hurts my soul. You know, I'll send them to Eric, he can do the much. This is how I'm going to get around this project. Yeah, yeah. I wonder if I'll do it. Here, take this big jag and breed it. Yeah, I'll breed it. But it makes sense that, and then you can also, if you wanted to, you know, do something completely pure and local, it's very cool. And I think it'd be much cooler if more people were to think along those lines instead of what is the brightest, cheapest thing I can get to add to my jag project. Okay, that's good. What are you going to do with the other years that you're not doing it? That's why, if I spend a lot of money on an animal, it needs to wear multiple hats inside a rogue. I mean, it's like, if I buy an animal, it's because you can be able to breed. You're going to be able to breed in multiple projects, not just one on one, unless it is a set project. Like, that's why I never go above trio's per side projects. Right. Anyway, what else came in the box, Eric? Well, we talked about the Brisbanees, which are very, very cool. Very cool looking castle. I got a Harris line Breddle, which is really nice. How different doesn't look than the other line, Breddle? Well, if you look at the A4's line, the black is reduced, like the black that goes around the, yeah, the black that's on the pattern is kind of like, is reduced. But if you look at the Harris line, it's more pronounced. I guess it gives you more contrast type of look. And the red, I mean, from the adults that I've seen, you can go to UK Pythons and see some of Paul's adults. And I don't know. They just have a different look to them. They're a lot like a darker red, I guess, which is cool. I don't know. With Breddle's, I really, I have, let's see, right now I have a pair of A4's. I have the female, the Harris. I have one from LASIK. And then I have a trio of Stripe and probably the coolest thing in the box for me was the Hypo Breddle. I got a Hypo Breddle male. I don't want to see him at some point because that would be cool. And I mean, I want, I want you to take a closer look. But my, the battles that I produced are getting over bigger. It's like, I know they're LASIK line, at least it's what I was told. Except for the one female, Sparrow, who's, who might be gravid right now. I have no idea where she came from. And it's like, I'd love to compare the babies to see what could be there, even though I'm just going to keep their LASIK line until somebody proves me different. So, but it would just be so cool to see the different, I haven't seen that many different lines of bread line up close. And you know, it's hard to tell when they're, when they're this young because if anybody that's kept or, you know, oh, and you can contest this since you've hatched out Breddle's this past year. They kind of come out and they're just kind of dull, kind of, you know, kind of like carpets and they're hard dull, but these are really kind of dull. And it's hard to imagine them turning into like this beautiful red snake. And some do, some don't, some have different variants of degrees of the red. But I guess what I'm going to have to do is I'm going to have to get a picture with a hypo with all the carrots. You can get the bucket picture where you put them all in the bucket and you take a picture. Yeah. And see if I make everyone else. Because the hypo, I mean, the hypo stands out, man. I'm telling you, as soon as you see it and it's not, I mean, I took a picture of it today and I think I got pretty close to what it looks like. But again, still, when you see it in person and, you know, there's no black on this animal at all, none. And whereas you look at an animal of the same age and it's not bright red, where this thing is screaming bright red. So, and it's just going to get better with age. You can just imagine what they're going to look like as adults. And then when you throw in there a selective breeding, I mean, good lord, man. I mean, it's just insane having a red, you know, a red carpet python. It's just nuts. So, I don't know. They're just, they're so, you know, just, they're everything I love in a python. They're thick body. They got big broad heads. They're so super chill, except for my one female who just is, they want food constantly. Like there's probably the worst bite I got is I got pit and I got wrapped behind my female on the hand, and I dipped her in a bucket of cold water and she's like, yeah, and, and she's like, yeah, I'm like, right, I forgot, I'm sorry. I forgot what I was dealing with here. So, that led to another like 20 minutes of struggle. So, yeah. But that happened in January when it was like, on the cage at like 50 degrees. So, I mean, it's like, they don't care. Nothing bothers them, and I love that, so. Right. And, yeah, I don't know. I think, aside from your horrific bite incident that you had, I think they're pretty, pretty chill. You know, and the pretty bull-- You're brittle, but you, what did you do? I don't know. So, I mean, they're pretty bullproof. They're very, very hardy. Yeah. You know, because they come from the desert. It's really cold at night and really hot during the day, so they're able to withstand temperature swings. I'm really surprised that how they're not more popular. I just, I don't know, those kind of things. You know, I guess with everything, selective breeding and time. Yeah. You know, things will happen. I think that's, I think that's kind of the thing that you're going to, that we'll see over the, I mean, the next couple of years. I think we'll be very telling for the carpet python world. Because I think that now that, I mean, the only thing that's not in the states now is in Burkata. Yeah, I know. And I know you're waiting. You're counting. You're hoping. Yeah. Okay. Counting people with boats in Australia to see if you can smuggle you what and what. Yeah. You know, you're right. I think that now-- Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, this is the thing. It's like, you know, these, these, when I started keeping carpet pythons, you had empanins. You had stripes. You had tigers. And then jags were beyond reach. And that was it. And now to have so many things that you saw in magazines, read this, read that, saw in a picture on like Marco Shea's website that he founded somewhere in the bush. And you're like, "Holy shit, whatever. That is awesome. I have access to all these things and now to be talking about different bloodlines. I mean, these are things that we should consider ourselves extremely lucky to actually start having this stuff in the United States because it's like, we now have several lines of jungle where it was kind of almost accepted knowledge in the early 2000s when I was buying stuff that the animals that are here are what we have to deal with. We might get some stuff from Europe, but that's it. So, the fact that these things actually have shown up in Europe and other places to allow us to have these different bloodlines and have outcrossing and breeding and things of that. I mean, a lot of people bailed out of granite IJ because they were pretty sure that we would, you know, that the gene was completely flawed and all it took was some outcrossing wild caught animals to bring it back. So, it's really cool to get access to this stuff. And I would love for people to have more breeding with Brad, I think they're awesome. So, and in one side. Yeah, they're another cool one, man. That's another cool one that it's one of those things you don't realize how cool they are until you actually see them in person. And, you know, the closer they get to adults for me, the cooler that they are. You know what I mean? It's no morph, no nothing. Just a really cool, cool Python. And you have the two different lines there that you can pick on parts of the blue and black ones. Yeah. Blue and black. What do you mean, blue? What are the moggs, moggs lines? Is that it? Oh, yeah. You mean the ones that don't. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think with those, there's three. Okay. So there's the two lines, the two bloodlines. There's the gold line and then the skull field line. And then Australian addiction, Justin. Yeah. He imported an animal that was a male, I believe, that's unrelated to either either line. And I believe he crossed that with a. I can't remember which one he did, but he crossed that with one of the line. I want to say it was the skull field ones, but he crossed them with them. And, you know, he kind of has his. I have all three and I have one, and I have one male from, from Australian addiction and. That I picked up a carpet fest and I was really surprised more people didn't jump on that, but. Oh, I could tell you the latest development of carpet fest continues. Okay. Yeah, it has a different look to it than the other ones, which, which is cool. So I don't know, just a lot of cool things that can be done. Very cool. It just takes time, you know, so. What's interesting about carpet fest? Well, first off, it's become a sea food smorgasbord, apparently, because I don't get food lined up, but it's something like we're not going to have to worry about entrees like at frickin all. Okay. Because from what I've heard now is Howard Redding is bringing up Maryland Prabs. Okay. Delicious. My curtain is bringing clams from New Jersey. Delicious. So, and then Andy Simmons is bringing the lobster down from Massachusetts. Oh, good Lord. Good. Legally. Legally. Legally. He's like, I don't wear something. I'm like, I will find a pot. Don't use the word. I will work on this. So it's like, holy crap. I'm like, well, there's food, I guess everybody else can bring side dishes and dessert. I mean, like, and booze. I mean, that's frickin awesome. And then also for the minder for everybody, I think it is. You guys have two more days, or I think one more day to, because it ends midnight the night to get your shirts for carpet fest. So you have tomorrow and then that's it. So let me ask you, are we past the point where they're going to do the shirts? Yes. Okay. Yeah. We are past the point. Okay. Well, that's good. I should, should I lie? That's where you buy them all? Yes. No, no, Eric. We need you to buy 20 shirts. How, how short are we? Well, let's see. Yeah. Like, I think we're at 3536. Cad Gray bought one today and Jason Bailey, even though he was grumbling about the color of the shirt bought one yesterday. So he didn't like the color. He said something about, I don't know. It doesn't really fit. I'm like, that's enough of you. You bought it. No. Listen, you settle down. Yeah. You're the new person who, you know, is breathing. Another of you is an eye. He's smacking your head a little bit. But anyway, it's like, we're, we're, we're pretty far off. But we, we have a good chunk. We have about 200 something dollars. I think it's closer to 300 now at this point to donate to U.S. arc. So I do, I'll give you a quick check on that. But I will probably start getting that list together. And we had our first donation to the auction. Okay. Okay. What was that? Yeah. Oh, buddy. You sent me a picture of this very gorgeous looking baby yellow chondro eating a mouse pinky. And I said, like, that's cool. And he goes, well, he's for the auction. So it's good to meet his eating. And I'm like, oh, oh, oh, oh. Oh, oh, oh. He is a gorgeous little yellow neo. So. Nice. And that had to get the low down to that group. But I think it's a good one. The good clutch that he just hatched out. So. Yeah. I'm high enough that one for that to figure out which one I got. But we have 36 shirts out of the 50 shirts goal. We had three days ago, which means it will shut down April 9. So I imagine, I don't know when it'll be. So it's the same assumption that once the killer looks over to April 9, you're done. And that's it. Right. And we have a total of $216.72 to donate the U.S. arc. Okay. Not what we were shooting for, but better than not. Not what we were shooting for, but better than nothing. And then you know what? The option will bring in a little bit more too. So I, if we can get close to five, I think we did a good job. Yeah. Means Eric will have to donate. I'm just going to say he's going to put that Darwin albino male that he just bought. Oh, yeah. That's the other thing I got. Oh, yeah. I almost forgot about that in the box. Yeah. Yeah. The albino Darwin. I was one of the cool things about that is that you can really tell the difference between a Darwin albino and a cross albino. Yeah. For sure. Definitely. The 20s, you and I have brothers now. Yeah. Your, your boy is a ghost's brother. So that's cool. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. And then like I said, the half female is just insane. It's just not. She's gorgeous. That was, that's a pretty looking animal. And that's just, that's pretty for Darwin dialect. See, it's almost like I want to go seven. I have to find a pure Darwin head albino. It's right now. The only thing I got for ghost is a gag head albino, which, you know, it's a 50 50 50. I J. I'm sorry. It's a, I did Jack Cross with a Darwin. So it's a 50 and then whatever. Anyway, I do want to pure Darwin albino, but I kind of want to hit albino this way. I can still get just normal Darwin because I think they look cool. So. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a nice little group of Darwin's now. I'm pretty happy with it. I got the Terry Phillip stuff. Isn't that the mean one? Uh, they chill out. They chill out. Um. They had one for like horrific. Yeah, they're, they're pretty cool. Um, hopefully I have my female will go next year. And, um, I'm going to breed her to the, um, Hypoish looking Nick was talking about the Hypoish Darwin. Um, I have a male from that same, uh, same group. So I'm going to try to cross, uh, those two and see what happens. Uh, so basically crossing those two bloodlines, um, which would be cool. Um, yeah. Uh, I don't know. I see the, uh, the Darwin's as something that has a lot of potential. And, uh, it makes me feel good about, uh, just the carpet. Like I said, the carpet market in general because I see just, it reignites my passion, I guess. When I see something like that. I'm waiting for it. Yeah. So, um, and then I got something else, but I'm not ready to talk about that. Um, yeah. We'll keep that one. Keep that quiet. But, uh, it's pretty cool. And that also, uh, makes, makes people think, well, not makes people think. Uh, hopefully people can be happy to know that there's still stuff out there that, um, that people really don't know about. So cool. And, uh, I would, we would be remissed if we did not talk about. Real quick before we jump off, um, the article. About, uh, Gavin Bedford. Um, producing Owen Pelley Python's. Which is awesome. I think it was January 30th. He hatched out the first. It says it was the first, but I thought that they were producing captivity before. Then when I got that wrong. I thought they were, but I thought it happened like years and years and years ago. Right. Yeah. I'm not sure. I'll have to do a little more. Regardless, yeah. He, um, he did this thing where he went out into the, into the wild. Uh, grabbed a group of them, brought him back and it's going to breed him. And I guess it's a new way of thinking, I don't know. It makes sense to me. Eugene beset said it all the time. If you make something valuable, um, people will preserve it. If it's not valuable, they won't. So what they're doing is that they're taking these and they're breeding them. And they hope to put them into the, uh, pet trade, I guess. And then they're going to use that for more conservation. The cool thing is, is that people really don't know much about these. Um, these pythons. Uh, they really don't see too many of them. And, uh, you know, I don't know. It's, uh, maybe it's one step closer to Australia. Actually exporting stuff. Uh, it's gorgeous though. That's such a cool looking animal. Yeah. And you know, the thing of it is, is that they change color. I know. Look at it. From the daytime to the nighttime. Yeah. It's like a freaking Bollin's baby. That's such a huge head. Yeah, they're like almost like a cross between it. I know that they've moved them out of, well, depending on how you want to look at it. They move them out of Morellia and kind of put them with bones. Yeah. Mm. You know, who knows? Do you agree? Do you disagree? But to me, they look like the step. You know how a rough scale is kind of like a chondro? To me, they kind of like the step between antiregia and carpets. Right. Yeah. Right. So it's kind of like got like this, you know, they're super, super. Everything's known to something else. Yeah. But cool stuff nonetheless. Yeah. So maybe they'll be exporting all kinds of Australian stuff. I can see them not wanting to import, but export seems. From licensed breeders, that would be awesome. I mean, talking with Peter Birch at Tinley, you was telling me all kinds of stuff. Well, the rules and regulations there to deal with from state to state. So be cool to see them loosen up like that. But I don't know. Yeah. We got to have Peter on to talk about that. I think that's really interesting stuff. Yeah. Some of their case requirements are ridiculous. But. Isn't that how it is? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I think it's the same way. I think so. I don't know. I want to figure that out. But anyway, before we jump off, you're not the only one who got a box today. Yes. It's the same. I know. So what did you get now? I jumped back into ring pythons today. Very cool. I got a talking with Chad Gray who has everything and breeds everything. You talk with him for 20 minutes and you realize that you have to be on his list for everything. So he and I have been going back. He and I have been going back for us because a friend of his actually bought one of my Malookan pythons. My scrubs. My boy. Blaze. Okay. And then he bought it and then Chad emailed me. He goes, "I had a relook in here." I'm like, "How do you have it?" And he goes, "Oh, friend bought it, reading it with my girl." I'm like, "Was it going?" Well, he goes, "They're in the cage together." I'm like, "Yeah, cool." You know, watch him breed that and then I'll like want to pull my head off. But it's like he and I are talking back and forth and he starts talking about caramel stuff. And of course, we start talking about other things. And long story short, we made a little bit of a swamp and I got a little baby girl with captive born and bred ring pythons. And I'm like, "I totally forgot how cool these things were." And, you know, I loved the pair that I had and I didn't have that pair for long. This is so cool. I love these old things. It's almost like when you were talking about stepping stones, how I look at the Dominican red mountain boa and it's like the ring python is the step between something like the white lips and the mountain boa where it's like kind of the same kind of face structure. It kind of looks like a Dominican, but acts and feels more like a white lip. So it's like sweet. I love it. So cool. See, the cool thing is is that the cool thing is is that, you know, I have all these carpet things and then you have all these pythons and one day I decide, one day I decide that I want to, you know, ring python or whatever, I can just say, remember, you want to, yeah, yeah. But, and it's just, again, I guess you've had today, I'm like, well, cross off another python species that'll be really put on radio table at one point or another where it's like, you know, if we can get you me in that man's hole in a line, I'm pretty sure we have them all covered to a certain degree or most of them. So, yeah, except berms and rocks and no one cares about those. Maybe if I thought, yeah, and thuns, I'll get done, Mark, you mark my words, I will get done at some point, I mean, I don't care that they're just a funny looking Mac, I will get done, they've eluded me for too long, by too long, I mean, like, three years ago when I learned of their existence, but, you know, I'm like, yeah, we have the, we got the royal pythons all sewed up, so you don't have to worry about getting those out. I don't care man, they're still a python, they're still cool. Yeah, here's the thing though, I don't even like, you know what I mean, like, I'm like looking at this stuff and the morphs are cool, but you know, the one that I really dig is just a regular bull looking ball python, it just really, yeah, it's just a regular ball python, it's a hat, but it's cool looking, but anyway, it's my favorite, it's just, I don't know, it's just, I remember when I was a kid and that was just like the snake that was like, it's so weird that that was a pinnacle species, but at the time, I didn't know anything about like carpet pythons or walnut pythons or blackheads or my day, we had a rock python and we were glad to have it, yeah, it was full of holes, yeah, it was it, none of that stuff, little did I know what it would lead to, but yeah, cool stuff, lots of cool things happening and, you know, projects going on and both me and you and that's a cool thing. You have to keep busy, so you know, of course we have to, you know, keep having projects, keep doing stuff, keep muddling around with things, I mean, making red mountain bows or breeding and I don't know why I keep doing this to myself, but we're gonna do that and then the Amazon tree bows are breeding and I got the clutch of carpet pythons, so I'm not a bow of breeder, ha, ha, ha, ah, there you go, cool, I'm safe, it's okay, oh yeah, these are the things, and of course it's like talking with Chad Gray and it was like, he starts talking to you guys, well, how about a ring python because, you know, I heard they were on your list, I'm like, the problem is, dude, is that my list is way too frickin' long because everything intrigues me and I find every single kind of snake out there for the most part, really interesting and I'm like, yeah, I'd like to fool around that for a couple of months, a year or two, see if I can breed it and then they're the ones that really just stick with me and I really love them and those are the ones that stick around, okay, so it's like, yeah, yeah, I find that, I don't know, for me, I find more and more, you know, the more and more is my collection, actually, when I say grow, I don't mean grow in size, I mean grow in age, I find that carpet pythons are definitely where it's at for me, I like these outlier species, but honestly, I don't see myself expanding too much into having like, the Nezark syndrome because, I don't know, it's just so much I want to do with carpets. Yeah, and you can definitely get too far out there, I've seen that, where people have like, a crap ton of everything and nothing breeds or, you know, one or two things breeding you're sitting on a bunch of different really cool animals or you have, I've been breaking cardinal rules recently and the cardinal rule one is never buy loan animals, if you're going to do a little side project, always get payers, otherwise you can be hunting down the other part of the pair for, you know, years on end, luckily I know enough people now and I have enough connections that if I get a loan animal, it's only because I'm waiting for somebody I know to produce one to go with it, like, of course this plan has been shot to pieces because everybody at Yahoo I know has rough scales, hasn't been producing them yet, so come on guys, it's one of those things where, you know, this year I'm pairing up my water python because I've been talking with a guy I know who got a bunch of eggs and got a bunch of babies, I'm waiting for a male to be ready, and the only reason I have one loan ring python right now is because I know that, you know, I can get a male later on from Chad and I have connections for baby white lips that I'm going to be getting my baby black face, so it's like I can get these things, so where I see people go wrong is they go to a reptile show and something intrigues them and something looks flashy and something looks cool and something looks like I've never seen that before, so they buy it and then they run off with it, and they're like oh I'll find a female eventually, and then you never see it, you never see it, you never see it, and then the one time you do see it a reptile show, it's really not an animal you should be spending your money on, but because this is the first, I don't know, elephant trunk head for hippopotamus tree snake that you found that is a female, you buy it, and then you bring it home and then one or two of them roll on you and then you're stuck with another one again and you've got to try to find a replacement for it, so it's like if this is something you really want to do, take the time, find somebody, buy a pair, then go off to the races. Yeah, yeah, it really does make a difference, I don't know, that's kind of what got me out of scrub pythons, a couple reasons, I think they're beautiful animals, I really do, I think that they're kind of kind of hard to beat when it comes to scalation and stuff like that, but the whole wild caught thing, and like trying to find a mate, and you know, all those type of things, it's like, I don't know, I found a mate for it, that's not the right locality, we had an arou male for the longest time, and it was like, every arou female I found was the wrong type, so apparently there are two types of arou, and I couldn't tell the difference, so I just kept finding the wrong type, and it's like, I quit, I quit, I quit, so I got pretty, I got pretty, pretty good with like, you know, looking at localities and seeing the difference, but the problem is it's like trying to find the localities, and then, and then on top of that, you know, you're dealing with animals that are wild caught, and you know, for the most part, yeah, the most part, that is what you deal with, yeah, and I don't know, pissed off wild caught, that are potentially bring stuff in, you know, yeah, and it's kind of like, you know, my collection is not really geared towards that, I don't really have like a separate room or something like that, and I just feel like when you have that type of thing, and as cool as they are, as much as I would love to be the guy that breeds this, or breeds that, and have that, I don't know if you want to say it's notoriety or whatever, I don't know man, it's not, to me it's not about that, and I would be doing the animals of this service by, you know, by doing that, I don't know, I find them fascinating, I love hearing about them, usually when I talk to people that have them, it makes me say, you know, you get that feeling of, oh man, I really should probably work with this, you know, because this is so cool, but you know, you kind of have to stay focused on what you're doing, see to me. But you visit the mulligans every once in a while when you feel scrubbed lonely, okay? Yeah, yeah, you know, and even with that, like, I made sure that the ones that I did have, and I did, you know, move, move, I move to people that I know, that way, if something ever does come about it, or, you know, if it does ever breed, and you know, that kind of thing, and then I can just come and buy babies from you, you know? I'm pretty sure either of us ever were producing the other one that it would be mass trading back and forth. Yeah, yeah, like to me, I find, I know this is going to be crazy, but I find for me personally, I think that Angolans' pythons are much cooler for me than when I was working with, you know, some of the scrubs that I was working with, yeah, it almost becomes like, it almost becomes like, are you doing it because you really dig the species, or are you doing it because you think that, you know, you have to do this, because... It's the next step in Morellia, or something like that. Right, exactly, you know, and it's like, how many people do you want to do morellia? Yeah, I mean, if you dig it, dig it, go ahead. If you're not that into it, you're not that into it, it's fine. It's like, I'm sitting here, and it's like, I have olives, waters, savoo, and I keep joking about dons, but of course, the people are like, well, there's Northern Territory waters, I'm like, I don't care, and it's like, they're not... I have water pythons, they're water pythons, I have my water pythons, I'm good with that. I don't want the smaller versions of water pythons, just because I need somewhere somewhere, like someone somewhere needs all the types of liacis. You know, I don't need all the types of liacis. I might get pop ones, because Casper will not shut up about them, so it's like, maybe, but it's not high on my list, so I don't necessarily have to do it, and then it's all the whole thing of, am I getting it because I really dig it, am I getting it because, you know, I must finish liacis for future generations, I don't know, like, why, so. Right, yeah, like, do you really need, are you getting, well, yeah, exactly. You know, I guess myself personally, I probably would be guilty when I was getting into Morellia, it's like, okay, yeah, I really like these carpets, but yeah, these scrubs are cool, and they are cool, man, they are, you know, but that's a big commitment when you have that kind of animal. They are a completely different snake, they're a completely different set of rules, market, danger, I mean, like, you know, you're, you're dealing with animals that you, you know, you can't buy at a reptile show from everybody, and aren't there any breeders out there anymore, who just specialize mainly in scrubbing, just maybe, like, two, and they, they don't produce a lot sometimes. So you've got to be on the cusp of that, you've got to be willing to spend the money, there, you can't feed them the same way you feed, uh, carboplitons, I got to grow, to stay lean, but have that nice muscled head, you're looking at a adult animal that has, like, a six foot strike range, and will be for your face, so, it, it's one of the things that you don't take lightly, and I am always afraid that people who do take it too lightly, because, you know, I've been on the receiving end of some of these things, um, and it's one of those things where everyone, so while you have a day that reminds you what the hell you're dealing with, um, two days ago, uh, one of the white lead pythons, females, when I was packing her up, actually, uh, let go, one of my big gold females, she bitten through my jeans on my thigh, and I'm like, through the jeans, what the hell, so, you know, I'm like, you know, my thigh, that's a freaking new one, so it's one of those things that, you know, everyone, so I'll remind you that you pay attention, Owen. So, right, yeah, I, I still have one female left, and, uh, I'll probably keep one female bar neck, and I'll probably keep her, you know, because you don't have to breed everything too, that's the other thing, you know, not everything, you have to, to, to breed, you know, I mean, I have a male blackhead, I don't ever plan on really getting into breeding blackheads, but that blackhead is cool, you know, it's just cool. I could see myself getting in more into, like, antiresia, you know, I could see, yeah, you know, that kind of thing, but, well, did all the addition ahead, the clutch of pygmy pythons already? Yeah, I think he, yeah, I think so. It doesn't like pygmies. Yeah, pygmies are cool. Yeah, and they're small, they're more manageable. I don't know. It's just, there's a whole lot of stuff out there to work with, and I guess tomorrow, this whole talk is you just, you do, I mean, at the end of the day, you're cleaning up snake shit, and you got to clean up the shit that makes you happy, you know, as much as I'm not a condro freak, I love going to buddy's place, and I love looking at his condros, and, you know, I get excited because he's excited about, you know, what he's working with, and I can appreciate what he's, you know, what he's done with, you know, the breeding that's on, and, you know, his knowledge of keeping them and breeding them, and, you know, and enough so that, yeah, you know what, I do want to keep condros, but I don't ever see myself getting 30 condros, you know what I mean, I just did. Yeah, and vice versa. Yeah, he's not going to have, oh, you know, tons of carpet by the time. Did I tell you what he did? No. He calls me the day after he listens to the Greg show, and it happened to be, I'm sorry, he listens to the Greg hound show, and then he calls me after he listens to the post-pinly show, and he's like, you got diamond pythons, and I'm like, yeah, I got a pair of diamond pythons, because I've been in law with diamond pythons for years, but I was told I could never keep them in my condro habitat. I'm like, what do snake roost colder than mine? You're fine. It's really, I'm like, yeah, you'll be fine, he goes, are you sure? I'm like, yes, you'll be okay. She takes me today to picture this diamond python laying in one of his dreams, and he goes, this arrived today. And I'm like, yes, I'm not nice. So it was, it was really cool to see like all of a sudden buddies like out of the woodwork like excited about something that isn't a condro, and it's like, oh, sweet, you know, diamond python, like, it's like, I didn't know that he had this other thing kind of hanging out there that was really something he really was kind of yearning for. Yeah, but if you, if you, if you talk to buddy, you, first of all, we know from having buddy on the show that he's kept multiple species, you know, whole, whole bunch of different kind of pythons. My, my cannon bar scrubber from him. So, right. So he has a vast knowledge when it comes to keeping just reptiles in general. But you can see, I don't know if, I don't know, I pick up on it like when he talks about like, when he used to breed this, or when he used to breed that, you know, he gets kind of like this little like gleam in his eye about, you know, it'd be cool to keep them again, you know, and then it comes down to limited space, limited time and that kind of thing. So, you know, you got to, you got to keep what you really, really kind of enjoy, you know, and really kind of, for Christ's sake, I keep ochiti corn snakes, you know, I got a pair of them just, you know, I mean, it's taken up a bin, but I, I looked at them. Oh, there you go. Okay. Yeah, I don't know what I'm doing with it. Oh, yeah, back to what man, they are cool as shit because every time it sheds that orange comes through, it's really nice. But anyway, that's, I get excited about that time in pythons, you know, Casper's probably going to punch me in the head the next time he sees me when I say this, but I really want to bowl on spythons until I had diamonds. And then when I got diamonds, it's like, you know, like really do I, again, beautiful snake, I think that if I had unlimited resources and unlimited space and time and all that kind of stuff, then yeah, I would keep them to me. Diamond pythons are just as cool. Yeah, I mean, I look great. I totally agree. I love mine. They're so chill. They're so cool. And I, I can't wait for them to get bigger. I really can't because right now they look like little black speckled carpet pythons. Like, you know, they, there's nothing really, they look gorgeous, but there's nothing really, they're not spam diamond python yet. And I imagine just like every single carpet python, after a year or so, they're going to grow and it's going to stretch out and they're going to get that little gaps in their scales a little bit. Everything's going to kind of get organized and spread out a little bit. And they'll be a moment where I'll open up a 32 quart tub where these two little guys will be and I'm just going to be blown freaking away. And it's like waiting for this. It is, it's almost like it's doing new things. And I know people sometimes tell me I'm a little bit of scatter brain and I jump around from different things over there. But doing new projects, getting new things, jumping into new animals that are similar to what you have, but are a little bit different or even just completely different, just rejuvenate you into this hobby and get you more, get you excited back into it, get you wanting back into it, especially something that you've been thinking about, but not sure if you can get it or if it's been, or it's at one animal you've been hunting for for years. It's like, boom, it's almost like, it's almost like I talk to people who are like, oh, I don't buy anymore since I had my like eight pairs and I'm good now for the rest of my life. It's like, you don't want anything else. It's like, you don't experience a new stuff. You don't want to check some new stuff out. It's like, it's like, you know, you're at a buffet and you're picking around the salad bar. What are you doing? So it's like, you know, it's, it is so much fun to have these experiences and have these moments where you can watch brand new animals and your collection kind of just, you can take them through. And I'll be even more psyched. It's almost like you followed the whole way from baby to yearling to now you're producing it. And then you want to see the little baby's heads pop out of the freaking egg and you're the whole thing over again. So yeah. Yeah. Cool, cool, cool stuff for sure. So Diamond Playtime's are one of those that I looked at in a book a long time ago and still thought, you know, wow, would be cool to have them. And now I have, you know, and you're right. Each, each yet is, you know, they get better and better. And you get that tipping that comes that like the white that comes, man, it's just not very, very cool species, no doubt. And it's so, I think, you know, I've said this a thousand times, but I think probably the coolest thing about and what kind of keeps me in the carpet Python world and why I really never have it need to venture out of it is because if you look at a Darwin and then you look at a diamond, they couldn't be any more different, you know, and then you look in an inland and then that's totally different. And then you look at a bridal eye and that's totally different, you know. So, it just gives me content. Like no other species really has all these different variations and spreading across. And you can do so many things and so many projects. You want to specialize in a certain type. You got to do it. But then you can also appreciate this. If you want to be one of those guys like us who just has everything, you can do that. So it's like, and you can do that while still staying completely in Moralia. So it's, it's really cool. I just, for one, getting sucked into other species. And I can peg it all the way back to when I was ripped out of Moralia and went sideways into other species. It's when this guy, I know, showed up at my house with a macclots Python. So, they're cool. That's, that's another one, man. They're so cool that when I gave you that one, that I had to have them again. You know, like water pythons, olive pythons. Yeah, they're cool. You know, and I can very much appreciate them. And, you know, to me, it's one of those things that I think when you have it in your hand, then you have a whole, well, picking up a water python may be a whole different story, but you're bored. You know, I think the, there's just something for me about macclots, Python said, and probably nobody cares, whatever, but they're very similar to carpets. You can keep them the same. You can keep them the same kind of thing. And like the one that I got from Ryan, you know, I got a pair from Ryan Young because I just had to have them again. And I thought you were going to breed them, but didn't want to get on there. So I went and got them. But, you know, the ones that he picked out for me, I have this one. It's like, I don't even know how to explain it. It's got to cool down the thing. And it's almost like it's got to bald back. And it's just really a cool, cool looking snake. And one of the, I think one of the things that I fall, fall to, and I think this is probably what a lot of people do is that, you know, you see the, you see the baby, and maybe, you know, a juvenile, but when you see the adult, that's a whole other, that's a whole another thing. The baby that you change is, I mean, to be honest, glitch is not always like the same of when you drop them off at all. And every single macaluts, I noticed that they vary from individual to individual to the amount of colored scales, the green color scales that they have on them, to the gray scales that they have on them, to the shades of green, the shades of gray. It's like, I have three macaluts right now with me. And I got glitch, and I got pixel, which are my two, and then I have a lone female, the female that's on loan who might be gravid. I'm hoping to God. But all three of them look drastically different to where the people are. If I've laid them all next to each other, you could point out who to. Right. Usually, not even thinking about it. And it's like, I think a lot of people fall into the trap of they will all look the same. It's like, they're not like other animals. Each one is drastically different. So it's not like you're not going into the whole, like, you know, and albino balls, and albino balls, and albino balls. These things all look different. Same thing goes with people kind of get into the whole, like, you know, it'll turn out to be a black snake. And it's like, yeah, but while he's changing, that's the coolest part. Because when you get them, they're orange. So it's like, I'm watching my little baby grow. And I'm like, I kind of don't want them to keep going because it's like, all right, that's stopped. Because this is like the coolest combination of black and orange scales. And you look freaking awesome. Don't don't grow anymore. Don't change color anymore. Just stay put. But of course, they're going to keep growing and keep going. But they still gorgeous animals when they're done going. So it's, you know, it's, it's other cool stuff like that. I will show anybody who comes to Carpetfest, the whole spectrum, black asses. We'll go into Leo Python. I'll let you poke the black face, white lips, if you want to. Just do so at own risk. So. Yeah, yeah, like white lips to me. I mean, you know, I get it. I understand it. They're really cool. But I don't know if that's the, you know, the right, right fit for, for me, you know what I mean? But like, when I see, when I see you talking about them, it's like, you know, white lips, white lips. And it's like, oh, man, it's really jazzed about white lips. And it makes me think, wow, it makes me just appreciate them. You know, but, but I think, I don't know, I guess in a nutshell, the reptile world, just in general, would be a really cool spot if people just did what they like to do and not worried about what other people like. Like, you know, because I have some ball pythons, I don't really give a shit if people think, you know, I don't care, man. I really don't. I could care two shits less. Like, it's, it's still a python. You know, I get the, it's, it's not the, it's not the snake that is the problem. It's the freaking, you know, you know, and then, I don't know, to me, I'm not going to not keep it because I think that somebody's not going to be a friend to me on Facebook, you know what I mean? Like, look at him selling out, you know, yeah, I got screams. You know what I mean? Surely I will die. It's like, you know, fuck you. Exactly. Yeah. Don't, I wouldn't even turn myself with that. Yeah, I understand there's going to be, there's going to be some ball Boston, and I get that, you know, I mean, oh dear Lord, I will, I've been relentless. That's cool. You know what I mean? Because I understand that's just ball Boston. That is what it is. But like, they're really like, if you, I guess what I'm saying is like, if you keep carpet pythons, or let's say you keep chondros, you know, and you're like, uh, you want to go keep some ball pythons because you think that a ball python is cool. Then, you know, for me, man. Even the other thing, maybe you just want, maybe your kids just want to pet, and you're like, well, a chondro might not do well living in their bedroom. So, you know, I'll grab this or, you know, it seems how it goes. Yeah, it has to be good. Yeah, it has to be a jerk about it. I think, I think the thing of it is, is that when you got money and money's involved, I think people, people get messed up, and that's really what's worse. You know, of course it doesn't matter. It's money involved. What species it is, it just, it is, if that's what's happening, then this is how it's going to go down. So, you know, cool stuff nonetheless. So, and how can you forget? I mean, to me, a lot of my, probably the only thing that's is of equal to me as far as carpet pythons go are short tails. I mean, that's probably the only thing that is a equal. Like, to me, like, it's funny because now Matt, he's like chondro crazy. And I kind of like, I'm like, yeah, I keep a few. To me personally, I'd like to just work with a couple of locality type stuff. And that's pretty much it. And I can appreciate the beauty. And I'm telling you what, man, you know, there's nothing cooler than seeing like a blue, mite phase chondro. And you're like, wow, that's so cool. But you're sticking adult. You're sticking adult high yellow or adult blue phase mite on like a, in a display cage at a show, like Hamburg. Guarantee, you'll be the top of the show. Like, I don't think you weren't, you weren't at the life Hamburg show, were you? No. I brought him a looping, I brought an adult Malukin and an adult black phase white lip. And you better believe there were a lot of pictures taken of the two of them. Yeah, they never seen you before. Like, exactly. What the hell is this? So yeah. But on a lowball offer. But yeah, right. That's Hamburg for you. But, uh, I don't know, you know, for me, it's like, you know, that whole big snake thing and the variety and the color palette and the patterns. And like, I think maybe that's the thing that I miss when I have chondros is the pattern. You know what I mean? Yeah. None of that pattern that happens with like a carpet or a blood. Yeah, which is really like, like why I would like my, you know, like one of my favorite species is Burmese pythons. You know, you look at the pattern and the colors and the palettes and all that kind of stuff. So, so yeah, that's that's that. That's our Python speech for the night. And we'll, I don't know if there's anything. Did you get anything else in that box? Just ring pythons? Nope. Just the ring, just the ring python. Yep. Okay. And the promise of future future. Yeah. Yeah. I did. I did along with my box of goodies. I also got a real cool Inland reptile shirt. Oh my god. They're teachers now. Yeah, it's pretty neat. So, well, if you come to Hamburg, Eric, you can get a road going to the new. Oh, yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah. I will be coming to Hamburg. Yeah. Oh my goodness. Oh, high end. Yeah. I might crash at your house the night before. That's cool. I'll put you to work here. You're in. All right. So, yeah, let's wrap this up and get out and the show on the road. I believe next week we have Tim Tyndall is going to be coming on and we're going to be talking about Inland carpet pythons. Yeah. So, I might end up buying Inland. Should be a cool show for sure. And then I'm in the process of working on getting a vet. I'm actually talking to somebody at the moment. So, things are looking good as far as that goes. So, we're probably going to have a vet on. I'm thinking maybe once a quarter to come on and like, you know, talk about various, you know, stuff and help issues and things. Yeah. That kind of more, what would you call it? More sophisticated type topics that keepers and breeders would run into. And it would be very cool to kind of, you know, maybe do away with some of the home remedies that were out there that maybe a doctor might not, might tell you to not do. Like, it'd be great if you could tell us like, what is a good idea and what it's not. Yeah. And as far as I hope that somebody can actually explain what's going on that way, then you can. That'd be nice. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's kind of like, if you know what's going on in your body, then you kind of can make decisions on what's the right thing to do, you know. And a lot of times that should mean go to a vet. But I do love how the, um, everyone's while you get the dude on like, with a pick of a week or something like that, where it's like, please help. My snake is breathing with its mouth wide open and is, you know, laying there, twitching. You're just like, why are you here and go to the vet? Yeah. Hello. Yeah. What's it do? Not talk to us. Anyway, that would be cool. Yeah. So, uh, yeah. So, uh, that's, that's in the work. So that should probably happen in real soon in the, uh, in the near future. So, uh, for, let's say, for the website, uh, check out our website, morality of python radio.com. If you want to email us, you can send any questions, comments, uh, to info at morality of python radio.com. The show, you can download it for free on iTunes. Um, and you can find the, uh, page, um, the blog talk page at morality of python radio slash blog talk, or no, blog talk radio slash morality of python radio.com. Um, don't forget carpet fest. There's now three, possibly four carpet fest, um, in the works. Um, but the one that we're going to focus on at the moment is the Northeast carpet fest, uh, the original chapter. That's the original chapter. Right. Originally, uh, biker uniforms. Anyway, that's right. Uh, May 30th, um, in birdsboro, PA, uh, be making, uh, arrangements. We're going to be doing a big push for that, uh, since we're pretty much about a month, a month and a half, two months away. Um, so, uh, I guess it's two months. Sorry. Um, you know, for more details, you can follow, uh, carpetfest.homestead.com. Check out the, if you liked the carpet fest, uh, Facebook page, you can get updates there. And we're also on Twitter at carpet fest. Uh, and also from Ray. Right. No, no, go ahead. Carpet fest announcements. We'll probably, we're also going to throw them up on the pick of the week as well. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I forgot to throw in, um, Facebook for Mariah Python radio, like our page, Mariah Python radio, and you can follow us on Twitter at Mariah Python. Uh, as for myself, eb maralia, uh, my website's eb mariah.com. If you want to get in contact with me, it's eric@ebmaralia.com. Um, I don't know. I have a newsletter you can subscribe to. Uh, I got clutches in the incubator, uh, and I'm about to put the 20, 14, uh, babies up for sale. Um, so we'll be looking for that. Um, and that's all I got. Go ahead. Oh, cool. Oh, we got, you can go to rogue-reptiles.com. You can contact us through there. You can check out the babies for sale, even though it's heady as we had a date. Um, you can also go and like, uh, rogue reptiles at Facebook.com. All the latest happenings of rogue will be there as well as the babies that will be up for, put up for sale on the website first and Facebook a little bit before they are released to the general public. So you kind of get a little bit of a thing. If you're a fan, uh, first pick almost. Uh, I have one last super caramel jag for 2014. So he's it. He's, there's no one else, not another else. He's the last one and he's not that bad looking. So, um, not at all. So if you were interested in a super caramel jag, you better strike now with the iron tuck because I don't think he's going to last much longer because he's getting big. Having else, you have a few more babies with those from last year, caramels, rattles, tigers, jags, and of course they're Dominican Red Mountain Boa. The next, uh, show we have is April 25th in Hamburg, Pennsylvania. If you have any animals you want us to bring there, give us a call, let us know. You can reserve it. You can pay for it. We do free delivery to any show. We participate and yeah, fun stuff. So for 2015, uh, stay tuned. I'll let you guys know when we get eggs as well as clutches that come out. All right. Um, that's all I got. So we will say, thank you for listening. We will catch everybody here next week for some more Mariah Python radio. Good night.