I'm Jeff Cook, and I'm TJ Wilson, and this is Around the Circle. The Enneagram is a map of the human personality. It's a tool for navigating relationships. It creates language for what motivates us and helps us look at the way we look at everything else. Most importantly, the Enneagram is a mirror because sometimes you need help seeing yourself. My name is Jeff Cook, I'm a philosopher in Greeley, Colorado, with me is TJ Wilson, business man, lover of theology, and Enneagram Ninja. Hello. My man. Hey, hey. It's been five years, and we have committed to the people that, on year five, we are jumping into instincts and subtypes. You committed. I said maybe. Well, in good news, we have some of my favorite Enneagram podcasters on to help us out since we are still somewhat novices on this. The thing about these gentlemen is there is, in Enneagram world, there is a ton of parroting of other people's work. There is a lot of navel gazing of, let me tell you about myself, which TJ and I are certainly guilty of. I'm right here, Jeff. Not a lot of folks are doing the actual work of data collection in systematic interviews, not so our guests. Jim's Artman and Joel Hubbard are, in my opinion, doing some of the best Enneagram work out there. Their podcast, Art of Growth, is Top Shelf, and we are thrilled to have them, so welcome, Jim and Joel. Thanks. It's good to be here. Quick word on yourselves and Art of Growth. That's the toughest question you'll ask this entire episode. Or is that even interesting? Go up here, here is Boston area, my whole life, been here, have a 14, nearly 14 year old, and been married for a long time, and we're going on vacation in Florida in June. So you're both in Boston? No, I'm originally from Ohio. I have been here since 2016, a few years before we started this podcast in 2018. I get bored talking about myself, so I'll talk about how to talk about the start of the Art of Growth, which was Joel being in his certification program, and we had been very interested in the Enneagram for a while. We had been talking about it, we even recorded one podcast that we ended up deleting and never sharing, because it was before Joel went away and did his schooling before we really started getting into it at a level where we weren't doing the parroting thing, or we weren't doing what we'd heard. We were trying to actually do what we're supposed to do in the Enneagram, which is listen to other people. And so Joel came back from his certification, and he needed to record panels to submit as part of his process, and I said, well, let's put these on the Internet, see if anyone listens to them, because I came from an audio background, I'd done audio books and film scoring, things like that. And so we did that, and it took off, and we started to do a second season, and it escalated into, now this is our full-time job, we do stuff that's on the consumer side. The podcast does function in a large portion as research, as us continuing to do the thing you're supposed to do to learn in the first place, which is put a few people in the room, ask them some questions, and listen to what they have to say. So we aren't saying a type looks like this, we are trying as best we can to listen to them and saying, what is this like for you? As something that we put in the first episode ever in setting up the Art of Growth podcast, which was, the Enneagram is supposed to be based on self-reporting. And we get very frustrated sometimes with the descriptions that are out there, because they're always from a particular perspective, and even though we have to write descriptions, we try to use as much as possible the language that we've learned from those types that they've given us. And whenever we have a phrase that sticks with them, we'll also then check it again with others, and so we are trying to stay in this process as learners as much as possible. And this is what we really love to do, because every single person does have a core that is consistent, and we've noticed this as we've done typing interviews and trainings across the globe, literally. But there is no stereotypes, and everyone is a unique expression of the type, and so we have to stay in a position where we're always asking how do you express your type. It speaks to, like, Jeff and I can't remember what type the two of you are, and part of that is because you're trying not to bring your type to the table except where it's relevant to speak from your type. Whereas all of the speaking that I do on an e-gram, you know, naturally has a little bit of niness to it, because I am a nine, and I bring that to the table, and that's part of what it is. So it's refreshing that it's hard to pin you guys down because you're not making your voice the voice of authority. Yeah, thank you for saying that. And there's also, you know, one of the values that I think we both have is we're not interested in navel gazing and turning inward, and like focusing on the particulars of the type. There's a lot of that. It's like, well, I'm a seven, so that's the reason why I do that. Well, you know, well, I'm an eight, so I'm just bringing out my eight right now. It's like it's too much about that, the features and I think when you start to observe yourself like that, you do what Martin Boober talked about, which is the, you know, you turn to the it, you turn yourself into an it, rather than the experience of the interpersonal and what's happening, the exchange, and it's ever evolving and forming and changing. And that's what's, that's what we're trying to do is to see like, in what way does what you're saying impact me and how does it change who I am, and, you know, and hopefully the same for the other person and that we're doing that for each other. So that way we keep the type a little bit looser, even though it's, it's a fantastic tool to get us to doing our own work. And that's, that's a big part of it is like the tool is intended for us to walk into it and then start to see through it as opposed to looking at it and staring at it for the rest of our lives. But I think that there's a lot of that as well that that's happening in our world. Well, when it comes to the stay of instincts and subtypes these men have done some hard work for the rest of us. And then recently, I want to say it's in the last year released nine podcast feeds, which are just a treasure. Their podcast feeds for each of the types, and they have placed their collection of panel discussions, according to type in those spaces so very easy to find, especially if you know your type, type in a gram five a gram seven, et cetera. And one of their podcasts is generally one of the top ones that that pop up. And just a delight, what they have likewise done is done 27 panels speaking to three or four self identified types at a time, according to their dominant instinct. So we're talking subtypes we're talking in instincts this time. Hopefully you've got a chance to listen to the primer that we released recently. And so we're just going to jump in. I'm going to assume that you know your type. I assume that you're your listener that you're used to talking about your any a gram type and we're going to just add another layer here with instincts and subtypes on top. But do when you get done with this podcast, obviously, do check out their their work, the art of growth. And it says art of growth. Does it not on on each of those type specific pods. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, I believe it says like your type so any gram type nine presented by the art of growth. But if you just type in any gram type nine, you will find like all of those panels in one place. And then the regular art of growth, podcast is where we have anything that we've done recently in the last year so so all of those function essentially like a back catalog. So we didn't want someone who's a type nine there's new to their type to have to go in there and you know scroll back for five years in order to find like the right episodes like I wanted to put them in all in one place. And I wanted to figure out a way to spend more money on our podcast that is free. So things like that. We have said the same thing for not as altruistic a purpose. We have always set aside all of our movie podcasts and separate feed said well you know if somebody really wants to find where the rings they really need to find an easier way to get there so with the clear setup that we have looked down on those who naval gays I would love to invite you all to naval gays with us and actually since since we're the ones leading the conversation I suppose the tables are flipped aren't they. You all get to jump into your own narrative and talk about your own experience of your engram type and instincts. So I would love to run when we start with you Joel. How do you type and what would you say your dominant instinct is and how do you see those those overlapping. Yeah so my lead definitely lead with the type seven that's been you know very become very clear to me particularly as I was going through the certification course I wasn't entirely sure when I started and was very sure at the end but I wasn't sure about the instinct and that's when I first learned about instincts. And over probably the three weeks that I was there that also became clear that I'm sexual dominant and my second in the stack is social. Do you have any stories where you could play that out in terms of how that materializes for you or where do you see that most most clearly. Yeah I think it's funny how my wife saw that before I did she would say you know it's funny how when you're with a group of people you will find one person and you will lock in and you'll have a deep conversation and nobody can interrupt you. And but if that's not happening then you want to leave right away you're just like okay this is great had a great time you know I'm done I want to move on because it's the hunt. It's the pursuit of that connection that that sizzle that exchange that I was looking for and didn't know that I was looking for but when it happened it was evident to anybody else who watched it that the energy would rise. I would find myself very full of energy in that space time is not a thing and it goes by very quickly before I know it you know we've been talking for an hour you know so yeah that is that became one of the ways it showed up. Another way was back in the day when I was pastoring a church I would find myself always needing change now sevens already do so so this is universal to all sevens is like variety change something new. But the sexual instinct that that hunter it's like it needs something new and I kept pursuing the new to the point that I burned through so many people who worked alongside of me. I thought that they were being resistant or you know they just didn't they just didn't get it you know if they got the vision the other than they would also be on board after all isn't that don't you want this optimal future like I do. And so that's how that's how it showed up a lot so it's so again it has a yeah I can see it's like benefits significantly so and then some real significant liabilities along with it. Same story for you Jim. Yes so I lead with eight and when I learned about the type and then looked back through my own history I got a very different interpretation then sometimes the one I didn't given about how that story had unfolded and how I showed up in those spaces and how so much of my attention went towards wanting to feel autonomous and make sure that I was not dominated by external forces and that being something that had been consistent all along. But I show up as the counter type which is the the social and so it's interesting until I learned about the instincts I. There's a lot of ways that I didn't seem like a typical eight I had I've I've met well known any gram teachers who have said you're not an eight. Which by the way if you're typing people don't do that because they do need to self identify number one rule and this is something as someone who I who types a lot of people. Ultimately it's what they think not what I think they are the only experts in the making on them and there's another aspect so as the social I had always heard things like well it's don't care what other people think. And I absolutely do just not everyone and not all the time. And this is one of these things that a lot of other eights come to me and they say well so and so and so and so doesn't think I'm an eight because I exhibit these kinds of traits. And so we always come back to well that's missing the point. And as a social you know I'd always heard from you know some of the literature that eight goes to two and health and five and stress and you know as someone who's socially minded. A lot of times my strength goes towards I need to say yes and take care of where other people are. So a lot of the ways that I was showing up and I can even lose myself in that space. It's started to make a bit more sense of my expression of the type. All of that story show up all throughout my life that the combination of needing that autonomy to make sure I wasn't dominated by external forces. I have very strange stories of in a jovial friendly but overpowering way deal with authority figures, including officers of the law, including in other countries. Where there was a major threat but I would not perceive it and I would assert that situation. I also have noticed and this is really big for me when it comes to a lot of the Enneagram and the instincts world is not to talk about traits but attention. So so much of my attention growing up went towards a sense of how to navigate the group. And so I didn't always feel super competent in it but it always drew a lot of attention and I would study it and try to become more competent and how to act in large social settings. I would study the guy who could make everyone laugh and seem to kind of take over the room. So whoever that person was, who could like walk in, who could take over the room, I would like study what they did because I'm like, oh, that's how you do it. And that's what I need to understand in order to fill this need that was at that time unnamed. This is going to be helpful because TJ is going to be our only self preserving type. So TJ types is a self preserving nine. I resonate quite a bit with Joel's language as a sexual one myself. Well, if we asked you the same question because you got like the seven and eight version of this answer of like your type and like how the instinct has shown up. Could you guys do the same? Hit it TJ. Yeah, totally. So I am a type nine. I all come to self preservation in a minute. I obviously want things around me to be harmonious and to flow the way they're supposed to and that sometimes means calm and that sometimes means big energy. But really it's I don't ever want to fight about things. I don't ever want there to be conflict or discordance and thinking about subtypes. So I'm going to add a wrinkle here because I struggle with calling myself a self preservation nine because here in my house where I am by myself, I definitely see all the self preservation stuff happen. Like my space is organized in a way that makes me feel comfortable and that is not organized my, but I know where everything is. My home is comfy and I want people to feel at home when they're in my house and like this space is about being comfortable and protecting and preserving my body. And when I am at work where I work as a barista, I own a coffee shop and like my job is serving the public. I have a lot of social energy come out in that space. And I also have done some like armchair counseling and stuff like that. And in that space, there's a lot of these, these sexual energy coming out. And I think I see self preservation most through a lot of the spaces where I'm at. When I'm alone in the coffee shop, I enjoy it very much. It is my alone time. I like locking the door at the end of the night and just letting that space be my own time and like I am looking to protect my space around me. And that has come up a lot in my life and concern about resources in a way like in the real nine ish way of like, nah, it's going to be fine. I'll figure it out. I'm not going to worry about it because I worry is too much energy. And you know, things will work out. I'll figure it out somehow. For me, the oneness and that bonding sexual energy seemed to me to go together in quite a few places in of all things when looking at other ones. I have a, I feel like I have the least understanding of other ones. Because I too am a subtype or a counter type counter type. Yeah, I resonate strongly with stuff that I've heard in your all's descriptions of bringing intensity to interactions. The creative transformational side comes out in me, the risks taking side, the preference for forward movement, although that easily pairs with oneness. The discomfort with comfort is something I heard. And that also feels like both a one ish quality, but can be a sexual subtype. And I can do routines and like routines, but routines can become too routine. So I need new routines to jump into as I were. So I may be getting some of the language for some of the traditional characteristics of sexual subtype wrong, but those are things that stood out to me. So just mostly I've said this a handful of times on our podcast that I will kill people with my conversation technique in terms of the, like if I can get you in a corner, like you're done for. That can be how I come across for some. And so knowing that about myself, incredibly helpful. For you all, I assume you have people in your life that you care about, you probably care about each other. I have yet to hear many people talking about how the instincts pair with one another and the chemistry that comes out because obviously you two have different dominant instincts. And yet you converse quite a bit, I assume, and you bring certain things to the table. How do you see the overlapping of instincts working in your relationship with each other and with family members? Well, I'll start. I think it is a complex subject and one that I don't just dive into without some trepidation of, there's a lot I don't know. So, so this is, this is, there's so much I'm so curious about and wanting to learn. So even after doing the 27 episodes, the amount that I've learned since is, you know, is just, so we're rewriting a lot of the material. But it's the way I see the interactions oftentimes, it explains my own upbringing. So I think I was the only sexual dominant out of five kids. So because of that, my energy, my approach, just the attention, the directionality of my seven was hard. It was hard for the others. And I can see that back. And now when I look back on it, it always may feel like something's wrong. Like I would, like, why did the other siblings seem to, you know, get along quite calmly and, you know, and easily. So that's helpful to look back and see what was happening there. But that intents it and I think that the further removed, depending on your stack, the more difficult it is. So what we've noticed is that if you have a similar stack to another type, the connections a little easier, even if they're not your type, even if they're across the way, you know, maybe in a different center of intelligence. There's a rhythm at which you move. There's a pace at which you move. There's a, that's the feel that you get. And so you'll watch and I was in a room with a couple of threes, and I'm interacting with them. And one of them is a sexual three. The other one is sexually repressed. So it's self-pressed social. The sexual three and I were just bap, bap, bap, bap, firing back and forth, building on each other, right? The energy is just building, building, building, building. And the self-pressed three finally speaks up and says, "I feel so unheard. Could you just dial back a little bit?" And it was like, we thought we were building off view as well. Like there's this excitement around what was being contributed in that space. So we start to notice that the further apart it is more difficult to align, and that's what our brains are trying to do all the time. And a social sphere is aligned with each other. And it's much harder when your rhythm's different, when your pace is different, when your attention's different. Social wants to go a little bit broader, right? Sexual wants to go narrow and deeper. Self-preservation is more of a circle, kind of a smaller circle, kind of feel to it. So that is where some of the challenges lie. Interestingly enough, too, that's also where the attraction is. So oftentimes, people will pair up romantically with those who have a different stacking. At least somewhat different. If it's identical, it might be a little too much of the same. But you're drawn to something that is a little bit different than yourself, and it counterbalances that quite a bit. So in that sense, there is that. But still, in terms of the rhythm and the adjustment and the alignment, it is much easier when you're talking across different types with the same instinctual stacking. Or at least the same dominant instinct. Yeah. There's a couple things that I think it's important to say here is when we're talking about instincts. First of all, if you don't know your dominant instinct or you haven't done your stack, you can take a free instincts test at theartagrowth.org. And it'll show you what we're talking about when we're talking about your stack. Because we've noticed that the personality, the shape it takes, is really informed by those top two. And then you have that third one that Joel is referring to as it can be repressed, it can be ignored, it can be a real source of stress if you are forced to spend a lot of time in there. And so, a lot of times we are drawn to someone who has the thing we lack instinctually. We've seen that pattern show up a lot with couples or relationships. But there is a different pace that they're going to run at. Me being a social eight social sexual and self press is my repressed and Joel being sexual social and self press repressed. We both have the same repressed instinct. So, we do a lot of great work and we sometimes forget to charge for it in our business and there's certain things business wise we haven't done very well because we don't pay enough attention to that aspect. Because the other aspects get a lot more attention of ideas and movements and how to connect to people and get people together and all of those things kind of come naturally. And from here I'm not speaking from a knowledge base but just my own personal experience that with someone who's like a sexual seven you have a social eight, the pace is very high and it's very easy. So, from the day I met Joel, and it wasn't just because we share the same birthday 10 years apart, but just the pace at which we could go in a conversation was very easy and we could jump all over the place. And there's a lot of aspects to that that made it, you know, very simple, that is a very different experience when we're, we are meeting with someone who's self press. You know, we're right next door in that head body space, but we're dealing with like self presence in the heart space, whatever, we really have to pay attention to like slowing our role. Because it is, it is something that is, I feel like something I'd like to pay more attention to, but I will notice it requires a lot more energy to be in that space. So that's kind of how I think about the last instinct is sometimes it's one that requires a greater poll on the energy for me. There's not as much a return on it where we find that the dominant one has more return on it. So you put out and it comes back to you, you know, and that's true for all three of them. The neutral one really doesn't do much. It's like, it's okay, you know, it does a little bit does, it may be fun, but the third one, yeah, that's the one that's, it requires a lot of lift, and doesn't doesn't return as much to you. Although weird little thing that we have noticed is that often in seasons of stress, we have seen a certain pattern where people live more out of their second than their dominant, or if they've been an environment that has really pushed their dominant down. And if it's too much trauma, then they end up in their self-presed regardless of what their stacking is, which is very interesting. We've had a few people that, you know, as I've typed and coached a lot of people around this area, if they're profoundly wounded, they will say I'm confused with my type. Or am I confused with my, you know, what my stacking is, because I'm living out of the self-preservation instinct. But generally speaking, it does go to the second, and there's a lot more to be said about that too, because it depends also on does your second enhance some of the features of your type, or does it work against those dominant features of the type. If it does, then it falls way low. It's your second, but it's still low compared. But if it's, like for example, a six. A six having a self-presed as their second, it's still pretty strong inside them, for obvious reasons. And so what'll happen there is, oh yeah, they'll visit their self-presed whenever there's something that affects them and, you know, shakes them up. And so you'll see them quickly going to the self-preservation. I have two intuitions about stacking. The first is that it makes things very messy and complex and will take quite a bit of skill to get there. But as you're speaking, the thing that's hit me is this, if you are able to elevate in conversation, the other two instincts, your repressed instinct and your, what did you call it the secondary instinct? Yeah, we sometimes say neutral, but I've gotten away from it that bit simply because it doesn't work for everybody. Some people say it's not really neutral for me. I kind of enjoy it. So again, it depends if it works with your type, then you'll enjoy it a lot more. So often, when subtypes are expressed, it's me and my dominant instinct, as opposed to, and I suppose that's how anger and type can work as well, but there seems like a more holistic, I'm striving for balance by knowing where my instincts lie and my relationship with those social energies and where I feel most comfortable. Of all things, I'm thinking through this as we're talking, I feel like I lose my superpower when we invite guests on, not that we don't love an adored guest, but I'm lowest on my social energy. Oh, yeah. My superpower is my one-on-one conversation with TJ and I feel real comfortable, and then other folks are involved, and I'm the leader, but I'm a reactive type, and so I'm trying to navigate the society that has assembled. And my skill set isn't where I want it to be. And of course, since I'm a one, I start thinking about how terrible a podcast leader I am. Yeah, you get pretty hard on yourself. Yeah, thoughts, TJ. Yeah, I'm just never the leader. That was the joke I wanted to make on the end of that. But actually, to build on this, you'll end up, a lot of your podcasts and the being, we want to get all the people together. And seven that you are, I suppose you're pulling people into the adventure. Hey, we're going to talk about ourselves in this where we're headed as a collective group. TJ and I are much more of a partnership. There's some folks out there who much prefer to have their podcast just be them in front of a microphone, and I bet you they're nominated instinct more than likely is going to reflect something of self-preservation. In sync, because it's like, here's my little circle. Did you have any other thoughts, TJ? Yeah, I'm just thinking, I'm thinking a lot about the stack and I'm wondering if in y'all's research, if you've seen patterns within type, like, like nines are more likely to be self-preservation or anything like that throughout the, throughout all around the circle. If there is patterns in that connection, like the social and sexual from these type, you probably haven't done all of the work to do all of the registrings and see where everything connects. But I'm just wondering if in the work that y'all have done, if you've seen patterns of how that stack can manifest and connect. Yeah, there's a few, there are some that do believe that that's the case in the Enneagram world. Some teachers actually teach it that way. But the thing is that, and it's curious to Jim and I, because we've coached and typed thousands, not hundreds, and it just continues every year because it's just tons and tons of people that were coaching, typing, interviewing, that reach out to us. And there is not a consistency, no, I mean, unless we put it on them, but there's not based on how they were responding to it. And we're trying to be very careful by listening to what they're saying and also, you know, working against what we already know because we're not, we're not unbiased, we have a particular theory we're approaching life with. And so we're looking at that, but you have to have the nimbleness to change that theory and ours did and has many times. So, but that was where it was, oh, that's interesting how we've run into nines that are sexual dominant, social second, sexual dominant, self press second, social dominant, sexual second, same thing with fives. And people think that fives are, you know, oh no, most of them are self pressed, no they're not. In fact, I found, in fact, incorporate, to be honest with you, I've actually run into more sexual and social dominant types than I have self press types. And I mean, quite a few, quite a number. And so when you ask them questions like, hey, you know, care about privacy, just privacy is that a big thing for you. They'll throw their eyebrows and they'll look around to their team, they'll go, do you experience me as a private because I don't think I'm private. And everybody else will be like, no, not at all. You're really kind of an open book. Now this square is this goes flies in the face of a lot of descriptions of fives, but they're 100% relating to that need for resource and the sense of like depletion of that energy they they recognize that internally. But the thing is that what they're describing is much more of that instinct that finds itself kind of what it's the instinct that works against the type in many cases. So I think what happens for a lot of people when they first explore this is they confuse their type. And to your point, Jeff, I think you're absolutely right. It is complex. They confuse their type with the instinct. Well, yes, I like comfort. That must mean I'm more oriented towards self preservation. Yes, I like a, you know, I'm not a big, regarious personality running around chasing. So that must mean I'm more self press. And so that's a, that's a, that's a bit more complex. So you have to kind of look at the instinct separately from your type, look at your type, then look at what happens when the two meet. And when the two meet, the big question is, how is the core need of your type expressing itself in what instinct is it doing so because it does not express itself in the repressed instinct. But it will express itself through the dominant instinct in a little bit through the neutral, but primarily through the dominant. And that is usually helpful to people. They start to go, Oh, that's true. I do care about like the praise of the group, not necessarily, you know, looking for it from one single individual. And so that starts to help. But it's, it sounded like you were asking, is there a certain instinct that shows up more consistently with a type than others. If I, if I understood the question. And if that wasn't your question, I'll answer that anyway for those who are thinking that we haven't seen that as necessarily as a pattern. We haven't seen like, Oh, there's more self press nines than there are social sexual, we haven't seen things like that. So one of the things that stood out to us the most while we were doing the conversations or one of the things that stood out to me the most is people would all the four people on the call, they would all be talking and they would all be answering the same question. And like a lot of times in all of a sudden one didn't answer like the rest on certain things like yes, there'd be a lot of consistency and then there'd be something that was just a little bit off. So it seemed often like we'd have, you know, a sexual subtype on and there'd be the sexual, sexual, sexual and self press, for instance, and some of them. And then one person would be sexual self press social. And then one, we got to the back end of the podcast and we were hearing them talk about their full stack and not just their type and their instinct. All of a sudden it was like, Oh, there's, there's almost like there can be counter types, but there's almost like there can be a counter stack. So that is slightly less common, but still showed up a lot. So that was one of the things that stood out to us that I would remember sitting in those calls and just being like, wait, what's different here I don't. And then I think about, you know, I'm a slow learner so like 13 episodes in I'd be like, Oh, I bet this person is the counter stack. It got teased the, the combination of moving into stress and moving into emphasizing the self preservative instinct. Do you want to talk more about that? Like you said, you saw that consistently when folks move into stress that this is just a common. Yeah, so, so there's a move, you can get bumped out of your dominant instinct. So this is where people, people sometimes ask the question of us, like, are instincts fluid, meaning do they, do they change over time? Are you looking to really have like 33.3% of each of the instincts functioning internally? Are you looking to, you know, is it based on seasons or situations? Also, it's a questions like that. And the thing that I don't think is as, as fluid as some would like to think that, that they are, I think that they are more consistent. So, and there are seasons certainly. So when we grow up, we're very young as, as babies, we're self preservation dominant, no question about that. That's, that's pretty pronounced. And then when you start realizing that you're in a family system, you start waking up a little bit more to the social instinct. I'm not, it's the sort of like, you know, Carl Jung thing of like, you know, you start to realize, wait, I'm not part of the thing and the thing's not part of me. Now, there's like, oh, there's, there's the eye now that's emerging, right? So it's like when you, when there's the no, the no starts, you know, like little toddlers. And at that point, you're starting to recognize there's me and then there's them and that's the social, you know, it starts to activate some of the social instinct. But what we'll notice, regardless, is if you are more naturally oriented towards this, because again, instincts are function prior to ego. It's underneath. It's much more in, in sort of the, the body location is that it is, it is there and the energy is still there. And so even if you're self-presed in the self-presed part now at this point, as a, as a baby, or you're moving into the social, let's say you're sexual dominant. It's still going to show up. That energy is more intense. It's more fiery. So that's why you have a little, you know, you might have a, a type one is in your case, Jeff. It's like, you know, a little bit more fire in that one. You know, they might have another child. That's a one and that, that one is not that way. And so even as the social kicks in, I've joked about doing self-presed work with sexual instinct, and it's not really pretty. I mean, it's like I'm moving as fast as I can, trying to get as much done as I can with a lot of intensity, whereas you watch somebody who's truly self-presed, it's a little bit more methodical. There's a bit more planning in that, right? And so I wasn't, you know, in the self-presed world years ago. I was in the field of construction, learned how to plaster did all that while going through college. But there was no doubt from anybody's perspective that I didn't belong there. I mean, I was told that pretty frequently, like, this isn't really your thing. But I wanted it to be my thing, and so I worked really hard. But I could tell that the movements, I watched and admired the movements of other people as they moved more methodically. They had more of a body intelligence as they work through things. So it's not that they were body types, but that that instinct activated that and gave them that intelligence. And so they were able to do things in a way that didn't waste as much time or resources in the way that I was. So that is how you start to see that the instinct still gets, it makes its way through, and it makes its way through whatever domain you might be in, even if that domain is inviting that instinct. What we've talked about is, as you grow and develop, what you're trying to do is learn to activate the instincts, even the ones that are repressed, because for certain situations and number of reasons, but for some situations, that's what's required. And so if you're showing up in a social environment, but you're socially repressed, you might disregard social norms. And so you're committing fouls in that social sphere, but you're not even aware that you are. And so that can be difficult, or if it's required for you to be in the self-preservation domain, and that's not your dominant. So what we're encouraging people is to learn to feel the rhythm of that, and then to see if you can move in that space, it'll feel very uncomfortable. But then what it does is it serves the other two, particularly the dominant instinct, but yeah, you do want to see where that neglected instinct is actually causing you problems relationally, causing you problems at work, and see if you can lean into it a little bit, because it'll serve your dominant instinct, which is your gift. And I believe that people that have that, that's their gift, in many respects, that's their superpower that they can offer the world. What I'm hearing there is I think my go-to is balances the goal of the enneagram. I like the image of activation. That's not necessarily disparaging other instincts, but you have a muscle that needs some work there pal, it's back day, it's time to hit your back, you know, or whatever. Is that what growth is then? In terms of where you see enneagram growth in work, when talking about instincts, is activation really? Is this the sweet spot? I would say that the attention always has to be for me anyways, and this is of course you're going to hear this and it's coming from a seven, but for me it has to be that you're pointing your attention towards what you want to become, not what you don't want to be. There's a problem in the world of the enneagram, which is the attention goes often times to, oh, you need to fix this, because this is something that's broken inside you. This is something that you need to change, because you're not quite adequate in this way. It's not said that way, but it's like, here's what you need to work on, here's what you need to work on, and you're working forever on yourself. And then people get burned out on that stuff, and then they give up on the whole enterprise. What I would encourage people to do, and this is something that I learned through some rock hopping, and I'm just back at it now, just got my specialized rock hopper, and I'm going to be hitting the trails. But buddy of mine was like, Joel, don't look at the trees as you're running down these tough trails, because if you look at the tree, you're going to run into it. Look at where you want to go. And that became a powerful metaphor for me for life. It's like, do you know what your gift and what your contribution is to the world, that the world actually wants from you? And if you can name that, then what are the liabilities that stand in the way? And that's what you address. And so if you're denying your self-preservation instinct, so much so, that it's causing you problems, for example, starting off this business, Jim and I both have that as repressed, it's like, well, that becomes a problem, because we're trying to put something good into the world. But if we don't know how to create and build a business that can sustain that, so that we can keep doing this and not end up having to work at Home Depot, not that there's anything wrong with it, but that's like, if you're not doing your thing, you might be doing something else. And that is not the thing that is yours to contribute to the world. And so that's where you start, okay, right, I have to work on that, right? So if the goal is not, work on your self-pres 'cause it's weak inside you, it's, you're here to do something good, and you've got a sexual instinct, or social instinct, or self-pres instinct, and it's powerful, and it's wonderful, and it's a gift to the world. But that said, there are always going to be these weaknesses, these liabilities, and in the way that they're hindering your progress towards being a light in the world, that's, to me, that's the framework, and that's how I approach growth and transformation. Yeah, you don't want them to be taking away from the gift you have, but this idea of balance is not one I'm a huge fan of. I don't think of it that way, and I don't think that would be an appropriate use of my energy. If my energy is going to be spent on the things that matter most, I shouldn't probably let too much of them get absorbed into the things I'm worse at. Just like I don't want to spend a lot of my time, like Joel was talking about, focusing on what's wrong with me, or what's negative. When people do that, they're actually giving more attention to that, and it makes it very hard to get out of. So balance isn't the goal for me. Nines will love this kind of metaphor, but I'm looking more for harmony, for like, chordal structure, like I'm a musician, so I think, like if I'm playing a chord, it's not that I'm, like, there's still a root note. There's still a note that is saying what kind of a chord this is, and how the notes get expressed. And it might, that third might get flatted, and we get to the minor, or we might get to the seventh and ninth, or whatever. The color will change, but the root note is still a thing. And it's not like I'm trying to get this balance across the notes. I want it to provide something that is musical, and that is beautiful, because that's what I think we're trying to do with our lives, is to make them a work of art. And to do that, we actually have to live into the most beautiful aspects of ourselves, not spend so much of our energy pouring ourselves into, well, how do I improve these weaknesses? I don't think that's the goal, and I think for people to be more free and more excited about their contribution, you're not going to get there if you're spending an exorbitant amount of time and energy on what is wrong with you. And trying to somehow make that better, because you're actually depriving the people who are great at that from living into their superpower around you within the community. And so the balance of the individual, I do not think should be the goal. But the beautiful music that can be created, and yes, I know this sounds social because this is a true aspect of how we all operate together, that we create this harmony and this core structure together. And that's what's beautiful. Just to make sure we draw this distinction, you guys are talking about balance specifically when it comes to instincts, correct? I'll stretch it across everything. Yeah, okay, me too. Okay, okay. Well, we might have to have a fight about that later. I don't love that. Also, I'm the one who's struggling now. Also, thinking about musically, and especially thinking in the world of scoring films, discordance is actually good and necessary sometimes. You want it to flow, you want things to work the way they're supposed to, but also sometimes being discordant is actually very, very good and useful. And trying to find the places where it's always like happy major keys and proper triads and whatever, like it's not always the most appropriate answer. Yeah, well, that's in, and that is, you know, if I may not be necessarily tracking entirely, so please, you know, say so. But I do think that there's room for sure for, hey, look, there's, this isn't a, you know, this is definitely not about how we go, you know, just all happy, ignoring problems, not focusing on those things. In fact, the thing that's so frustrating for me is the tension, these polarities, because it's like that's neither one is like, I can look at the shadow, I can look real clearly and closely at the stuff that is not pretty internally. And I can, and I'm getting more and more comfortable with stating it plainly, like, yep, that's true about me, without shame. I feel sad, I feel heavy because of it, I know the impact it's had. But I think if you walk in grace and you walk in that, that like, I'm going to, I choose to live in the space of just grace for myself and grace for other people, that it allows us to come clean, and to be honest about those things. And to see in which ways those things have limited, the thing that is ours to put onto the world. And we're not talking about like, you know, letting your, just letting yourself be seen by other people, it's more of like, what is the light that's yours to shine in the world. It's not just a fun, happy thing. It's sometimes it's really, it's the hard work of doing that because it's not easy for us to walk in that truth of who we are, and the thing that is ours to put out in the world. It's, but you will also be the most, I think, generally, more people who are living in that find themselves feeling very settled internally as to this is the path. I know that. It's just, it's going to, it requires, we always said that the, if you're, if it's simple, but difficult, then you're doing it right. It's difficult to understand, difficult to understand, difficult to do. Yeah, yeah. Resonate highly with, with the idea of your type as notes, as music, I think that that really works as a metaphor for anagram. I also resonate strongly with the idea that getting rid of your type, which can be a common anagram teaching is a really bad move. That's terrible. And pushing into your type is finding whatever that is, your superpowers. I think it's great language for this. Elevating that, allowing that to flourish is one of the best contributions you can make both the others into yourself. I suppose a lot of the, the language here is I would love to push into one that I am. I, my superpowers making things better. So if you say you can't make yourself better, that's, I'm, I'm at a crossroads then. You can make yourself better. You can't make yourself something else. I think that's the nuance that I want to provide here because the way that I see people most consistently falling off, not living into their gift is by thinking I need to be more like so and so. Like if I really had my stuff together, I'd be like them, or I'd be like this person over here. And I think actually becoming yourself is one of the hardest things to do. To actually, what an incredible improvement if people stopped living in the narrative. They did the work of, of ending the narrative that I need to be something else. If I was different than, I would really be better than. Because improvement is not in the, I'm going to stop being myself. That's not improvement. That is the manufactured kind that I see so many people lose themselves and lose who they really are because they're, they're buying into this story that of comparison and they're constantly being, seeing messages all day of like what I'm not. And I'm like, well quote yourself, like who are you? What is the thing you're uniquely here to bring? And I think making improvements in that direction are actually harder. By far, by far, because that's the truth you walk into vulnerability at that point, because you're no longer living in the, in the sort of image that you have created for yourself and everybody does. This is not, this is not a type three thing. This is a type one through nine thing. We all have a presentation of the self. It's all part of the ego. And that is the part that is the hardest to let go of into a walk in more of our truth. And, and it does involve improvement. My gosh, I think, I mean, this is where I lean into my one really hard as a seven is when it comes to my to, you know, to the language of the Enneagram and how we speak about it. And, and like I'm always trying to improve this, always trying to move it forward, right? It is so important to do so. But to Jim's point, I think if, if we were to look at ourselves as acorns and recognize that within the DNA of that acorn is everything it needs to be to become an oak tree. But the problem sometimes we make is we're trying to fix something in ourselves to be something other than an acorn. And it's like, no, that's this, this is who you are. And so for some type ones, it's, it can be very complicated because it like, well, but then I'm not strong on my social instinct. So I should be stronger in my social instinct. I should improve that. And so we have to do some work around. Okay, let's work on the part of you that we're, we're that vision, mission, purpose, where that lives. And where that lives is in the heart center. And so let's talk about desire. Let's talk about appetite. And all of a sudden, my type one's clients get squirmy. It's like, oh, that's hard. I'm not sure I want to talk about that, right? But it's like, well, but you're into improvement, aren't you? Right? So this is the area of improvement, but it's not the area that the type is naturally bent towards improving. In the same way that sevens, it's like, oh, we want infinitude. We want open skies. We want open seas. No boundaries, right? And at the end of the day, we're bounded by the very fact that we've never actually done anything of significance because we're so spread in so many different directions. And so that went, that reality becomes like, oh, you're trying to push towards freedom, which is a gift of the seven, the joy, the possibility that you, but you, but in order to get there, you have to have boundaries. And you have to have limitations, so you turn your pond into a life-giving river. And so the natural way we think about talking about how to do our type, you know, in its optimal sense is generally very much driven by the ego's need for self protection, as opposed to doing something that's for the world, doing something that's for the greater good, as well as for yourself. But, yeah, of all things, some of our writing really is tried to emphasize that acorn oak tree kind of image, which I think is spot on. Acorns believe something ridiculous when they look at an oak tree. They say, I'm supposed to look like that. Yeah, it's audacious. And yet it's entirely true. There is something, this again, one of those places where people fall too far to one side or the other, in my opinion, is on desire. There's a large number of folks who want to eliminate all desire entirely. The Stoic vision, the Buddhist vision can go down these roads sometimes. And then those who want to say all desires that you feel are somehow natural, inspiring, and ought to be given your full self. And I would want to push back against that and say, I think you can categorize some desires as unhealthy. That this will actually be detrimental to your striving person. I can say some of mine are. I can definitely say some of mine are. Yeah, not for everyone. I can't speak for everyone, but yes. I think that spot on to say, any gram wise, what are you shooting for? When I say anagrams about balance, more what I think I'm saying is being a holistic person that's able to understand and to actualize what good health-producing desire is. You're producing desires, relationships, and you're full flourishing self. Require something like a measure of all your muscles working, all the parts of your self, mind, heart and body, engaging the world. And so if you have a repressed center, as we all do, balancing your repressed center, this can be massive, very important work. When coming to instincts to circle back, the image of activation, what I heard you say was, you have a goal, you have a picture of who you ought to be and what's yours to do. And so it's very likely the case that that's going to take place in social settings, either individually or communally, or it's the case you need to make sure you got your resources because otherwise you will, your car's going to run, I guess. And that strikes me as also a very, I mean, I suppose as I'm saying out loud, I don't know that you're going to be able to avoid one of those. You're probably going to have to hit all three, and so balance might be set aside, but activation for the sake of you realizing your potential goals, what you're made to do, naming your repressed instinct, naming the place where you feel uncomfortable, and saying this is a place that's going to require some muscle, some attention, some intentionality. It strikes me as right. Am I wrong in saying? No, I think you're right. And again, it's where it creates a problem for you in your attempt to do something good in the world. So I believe all of us, if we're thinking about what the good life is, what we want to do, I believe that the majority of people aside from sociopaths are hoping to actually do something good in the world, and that that is something that is within all of us. So, but we also have an egoic brain, which is also saying, well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what about your need, the core need of the type. And so, you know, that's going to show up, and it's going to show up through the instinct. And so, you know, the other day, my wife thinks that it's, we need to get a new bay window because it's leaking and it's got issues to it. So we're like, okay, so she brings in a window company and she's like, okay, so they're going to need a couple hours from us as they're walking through stuff. And immediately, what happens to me at a visceral level is I feel like that's horrible. That's like the worst way of spending my Saturday morning is talking about window replacement. To a salesman? Yes, to a salesman, exactly. For a couple hours? Always more than that, Jim, it turned out to be more like four hours. Well, exactly. So that's the same thing that came to my mind is, how in the world? I think this could be done in 20 minutes. But they're thinking in self-presed types. There's this like tracking with that. No, there's a lot to talk about because you get to figure out the measurements. And if you're going to replace one window, it may require that you match that. So then you might have to replace a couple other windows around it. So it's all this stuff that starts being part of the conversation. Anyways, I had to recognize that my self-presed instinct was screaming. Like, find some way out of this. Mine is too, and you weren't even there. Yeah, you're probably sweating. It's like very uncomfortable. So I had to prepare. And to prepare meant for me that I had to recognize like, I'm going to have to be there, but I'm not going to be there for the entire time because I can't. That's too much for my system. So I was there. I sat there and I kept breathing and repeating internally the mantra that I've been repeating for some years now. You're not going to die. You'll be fine. Because the existential hole in all of us, it's like it's screaming. It's like you're dying right now. This is the worst thing ever. It's this little toddler inside of us that won't stop screaming for food. And so I just had to pull back and just keep breathing and keep telling myself that. And staying in the rhythm of the self-preservation instinct. Not trying to rush the guy, but listening, slowing down, asking some questions. Until finally I was like, okay, I think I've capped my own ability to do this. And I'm honest with myself. That was about, I was there maybe sat for about 30 minutes. And I was like, okay, I'm going to head out. I'm going to go do some other things. And my wife knows. I got 30 minutes. I didn't get the four hours out of him, but I got that. So rather than being idealistic about it, we should be able to do this. It's more of like, what can you do to be present so you're not later on going, well, gosh, I don't even like those windows. Not that I'm going to care as much, but I might have that opinion. Or I might, you know, we might have spent money in a way that I think, you know, even though I don't think much about it. It's like, well, but what about this other thing that we would like to do as well? And I wasn't part of that. And then she feels left, she feels hurt by that because I wasn't engaged. And so for the sake of the relationship and for the sake of my own wellbeing, because what happens too, it's interesting, is when you press into your repressed instinct, it tends to, it's like a nice reset. It's that's where the balance to use that word. I think that's what happens is sort of a counterbalance. There's a reset. There's something fresh that comes in, particularly for those who are socially repressed. When they're in the social sphere, some fresh stuff comes in and they're like, okay, this is interesting. I can, okay, I'm feeling pretty good because we can overdo our dominant instinct. But on the other hand, what a lot of our coaching has showed us is that people are not living properly out of their dominant instinct, meaning they're not leveraging the strength and the gift of that thing. And as a result, they're coming up, they're burned out, they're tired, they're not happy with their lives. But when you're living more from your dominant instinct, not living in extreme trying to get that like, I can't get enough people as a social lover, I can't get enough resources in alone time. And it's living with the wisdom of that instinct, the intelligence that that instinct has. And it has a ton of intelligence. And it has a lot of wisdom to offer us and the world around us. And so I think that's where we've been coaching people, particularly in the work world, where people sometimes are not, they're some type of one that I was coaching, was completely burned out. I said, what's going on? I said, well, I just got, I just got promoted. And now I'm managing a team. Well, I know he's stacking. He's self-presexual. And now he's managing a team. And he is the most unsatisfied, tired, burned out guy on the team. But he's so good at what he does, that they thought, well, isn't that what you want, is a promotion. Another type nine, who's a self-presdominant sexual second, who's in our certification course, is a physician said, man, that was on my, like, I'm being asked to think about a promotion that involves me managing a team. And I think that's the worst thing ever. Like, I don't want to do that. But this gives me language, and this gives me direction to actually say, you know what, I'm really good at what I do, and I love doing that, and I want to do more of that. And I think that that's also where the instincts, I think people can improve in actually knowing how to use their dominant instinct with more intentionality with the wisdom that it offers. Let's try some for a second. So let me ask, Jeff, pain a picture for me of your life at its absolute best. You're spending your time the way you want to spend your time. You're doing the things that you care about the most. You're doing it with the people you care about the most. Like, just pain a picture of an optimal expression of Jeff. Well, it's clearly this podcast right here, love in life. I should have a martini that would make it a little bit better. No, I imagine there's going to be relationships in certain settings. It would be one vision and a second vision would be likely center on success in, you know, in my field, you know, in the things that I'm really passionate about. Well, paint a picture of like a day. Like, what does a day look like where you would feel like this is me at the optimal? So I think is a one, I want to say that I get a lot of my gratification from what I achieve and accomplish. And so it probably is going to center highly on that. And I'll probably make that either professional terms or relational terms like it might be the case that I'm taking my kids. We ski. So if I'm doing skiing with my kids, then the backside of that day and how that day played out and, you know, if we overcame all the obstacles and the rest and had connection that would probably be it. And I would categorize that less relationally. I think that's an achievement in some in my heart, although that relational side is going to be important to me as well. On a secondary side, I love the, the infusion of energy from, you know, from teaching in, in front of a large group or even just having depthier conversations with folks who are very, very informed and feeling like I can, I've along here, you know, I can hang, you know, I've done the work. And so my self assessment often comes from what I'm achieving. And that's how I'd paid that day. I don't know if that's answering your question. What about improvement? When, you know, when you're thinking about improvement, is it small improvements or big improvements that inspires you? I feel like I'm, I've pretty much locked down a lot of the things that I want to do personally. And so the places where I feel a real, you know, infusion of energy end up being out there. So, and a lot of times those are much more mental in nature of changing people's minds or, you know, moving, moving something obstacles out of the way for folks such that, that they have a reaction. So being able to put, you know, so I'm a teacher by trade, being able to orchestrate something such that here's my teaching and it actually moves the pieces from for folks so that they can get from here to there, even if that's, you know, going from C to D and not going from C to X, you know, that's that is a deeply satisfying way of being. And if I can do that for a lot of people at once, then it just shows that I'm very good at what I do and that's what I want. So here's a few things I hear in that. You're talking about depth of conversation that I'm in circles that you feel like you belong because you have, you've done the work to be a contributor in that space. You talk about teaching and wanting and teaching is all about, like, improving someone's knowledge, increasing their knowledge, increasing yours along the way. So I hear a lot of the, the gift of the type in there. I hear a lot of the gift of the instinct in there. Like, I want to be in the room with people. I want to having this talk you were talking before about wanting these one-on-one conversations. Like, this exploration where we're increasing our understanding, we're making things better. We're going to these deep places. So the sexual instinct was in there. The even, you know, even some of these, like, skiing, this isn't like I'm taking a stroll in the park and we're eating ice cream. Like, there's an intensity to it. There's, there's adventure to it. So you can hear throughout the description of, like, this is something I'm doing in the free time with the family and something I'd like to do professionally. And I am doing professionally. You can hear the gifts of the one in there. You can hear the gifts of the sexual instinct in there. And when I hear that picture, I go, and that's beautiful. That's amazing. Like, I hear that from you and I want that for you because it sounds consistent with the person you are fundamentally designed to be. And it takes effort and work to move towards that person, for sure. But it's not when you name that, you're not naming it to be something else. You're naming something that is very consistent with you. And so when we're talking about all these ideas, I think you put them on display really well right there in describing yourself and describing what the contribution you want to make, how you want to spend your time, the things you want to apply your energy to, they sound very consistent with who you most naturally are. And I deeply believe that who you most naturally are is what the world needs most from you. Right. To, I mean, to turn the tables, notice the, the ateness that's coming out there in terms of elevating appetite, in terms of saying you have the strength to take care of this kid. For sure, I want you to feel empowered to be the person you are. And I want it to come from you. And so that's why I ask for me as a question. And then I'm calling out. And this is what I do a lot of times in coaching, whatever. I'm asking you the questions to prompt you to say the thing that is important to you. And then all I'm trying to do is amplify the thing that is already within you. So exactly right. This is actually, I mean, it's just to flip the tables again. The, the treasure of AIDS that can come out with real healthy AIDS, especially in work that the AIDS are doing, being able to, to give permission for appetites that are good to flourish. A lot of us don't know that we get to pursue what we want. So great that you're teaching on any gram, which is all about what you want. You know, and the thing that hits me most, and it actually is the thing that I get from any gram. Because, because I am much more of a person who will repress my desires. I have a natural tendency to be very skeptical of surges of energy within myself. And so what in your room does gives me a vocabulary of want. And there can be a spectrum there of healthy wants of unhealthy wants of things that are neutral. And, and being able to, to see them through a, a prism that, you know, thinking repressed one that I am and it can give me guidance in navigating those sorts of problems for myself, but pairing myself in here's the music analogy. And when, when I have relationships with people like Jim who actually can look at my life and say you are taking yourself way too seriously on this front, and this should be given permission to thrive flourish and you should, you should blow that money, you know, or something of that nature. Like, that, that does allow me to, to move out of what, what I would see as some unhealthy characteristics of oneness, which I suppose in my mind and heart should be named. I think there's all sorts of things I can name that are very unhealthy that materialize commonly in each of the types, but that would be one that, that I would want to hit. Well, when you get to this piece of desire and it loops back to what you said earlier, something around, you know, how do you, aren't there, there are some, there are desires that are good, there are desires that are bad. And not all desires are good. And, you know, is to, for you as a one, and we do this a lot with triads, so not to pull away too much from the instincts, but the 147 inside you, we actually believe they, they reside within you as do all nine types. And that you can call up the four inside you, which is where the appetite lives, the desire lives, and you can call up that playful and boundary itself in the seven. And when you're bringing those in there, they start to, they start to help move you towards relaxing a little bit in the area where there's a distillation of the gray into the black and white, maybe prematurely, the movement from chaos to order, maybe too quickly. And like, can I stay in the chaos of the heart center, the four, which epitomizes chaos in the creative sense and in that sense of, you know, of openness and things that are still not settled and has no structure to it. So can I stay in that for a little bit? That's desire, that's appetite. And I don't think for any type, it's like, oh, you should just throw everything that you think is right. I think you just throw it all out, you know, and because I think that the ego is an important component of all of our types, it's there to protect us. And so, paying attention to, okay, it's right now, it's saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up. This is a little terrifying. All right, see if you can go a little further. See if you can talk to the four inside you. What do you want? What do you desire? And the seven, what do you want to do? And you have both, by the way, they show up. People say this, type one, tell me this all the time. It's like, oh, on vacation, they call me vacation dad, you know, because I'm a different person when I'm on vacation, you know. Or, you know, yeah, when I hit the four, it's melancholy. But what's happening there is it's like, yeah, because it's your heart center that's finally saying enough, or it's your head center as a seven that's finally saying enough, I want to play. And so the idea of this is balanced, but it's also integration. How do I bring these parts back to myself and have a conversation with them? Well, I think we'd share some of that. I'm not sure I'm going all nine types just yet reserved one that I am. I do like saying that you pushing into your wings, pushing into your stress and security number is where you find where you can find balance. The move for four to me and to appetize your saying that is an interesting one for me because that's moving into my stress number. That would be a very healthy person in order to engage what's good in that four space for myself. I don't know if you have thoughts on that, but that becomes very uncomfortable. And it's not like when I moved to seven, that's easy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Most most ones find that to be true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, which. So the Enneagram, we used to teach this. We used to talk about the resource points in that way. Like, this is your stress point. And this is your point of integration or, you know, so disintegration integration integration, all that language. We don't use that anymore. And the reason why is because they really are resource points, meaning that you can draw from the higher the low and what we've observed is that people will draw from the high and the low of both of the resource points, depending. And I do too. So I used to be confused, but I have to think about it like, right, right, what's my reason because I can see the five in me is supposedly the place of integration where I would go there when I was insecure. So it's like, wait, how come I go there when I'm insecure? Because I can leverage intelligence. I can leverage the mind and I would do so and I'd pull back and become really withdrawn and become very intellectual and very nuanced and very, you know, and I can do all of that. So that's that that would be in the stress point, but you learn to draw from both the high side of the four and in the high side of the seven, and you can want yourself going to the low side of one or the other or both. Is it not the case that the character traits and resources that you affirm in your stress number, they are there, they're accessible, but it's very difficult to actually grab hold of them sometimes because that you are moving into that stress move. Well, that's why we wouldn't say that you have a stress number. You're just calling it resource. It's just a resource point. And like I was even saying at the beginning, because of my instinctual stack, I often would go to what they said was my integration in stress. Taking care of everyone else. And it's not a consistent thing at all, the whole idea of a stress number and integration number. It's just not the, that's why Joel was saying we don't really teach that anymore. You don't just clarify real quick. You don't think that you naturally pivot toward what is traditionally your stress number when you're not getting what you want. No, no, I definitely don't. Okay. It's very complicated. I mean, it's because in both of our lives, we could both point at, I can definitely point where I go to the one sometimes in stress, yes, but I also go to the five very much in places of stress. And so a lot of it depends on number of factors, including your instincts, I think. But what you, because you're, if you're comfortable in the social instinct as an eight, the two is not that far from you. It's, it's more accessible to you. And we know a lot of eight who are social mates, who will sometimes mistype themselves as twos. And, and so that's a big part of why instincts are so important because you're understanding what's happening to the dynamic of your type. And so that's the reason why that resource point might not be as difficult. But what we say is about the recent, the four, particularly for the, let's use that as an illustration for the four for the one is, it's like, well, that's a stress. So that's negative. So that means I'm in a bad place. And for us, we don't say that at all. In fact, I celebrate that. So when someone's in their stress, stress point, yeah, here we go. If you're only listening to this drill, put that in quotes on the stress points. Just to build on that, we're quick. Yep. Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't characterize the stress move as bad. So I wouldn't put that value judgment. I do think it is the case that I have the experience of when things fall apart in my life that those are the net, those are the tools I naturally pull from. Gotcha. And you're saying that this, this may be quite true, but for all the types, when things fall apart, it will depend on the person. They may, they may just say, you know, for the one they might just say, fuck it, I'm getting a bottle of gin and I'm moving to seven. And we're going 100 miles an hour somewhere else. That's right. That's right. And that actually, I have plenty of stories of ones telling me they literally did that. They disappeared and went to Europe for two years and partied hard. Right. And in my mind what's taking place there is they, they can't stay in their center. The pro, the reason you're moving off center is you're not getting what you want. When you're quote unquote when you're balanced, you're somehow, you're centered, you're, you're in that space and can pull when you're not getting what you want. And clearly, the tools you're employing there aren't working. And so you have to move. I, I, in my own experience, Jen going 100 miles an hour is one artificial. And two, it's a forced move that I employ. I don't know that I get there naturally when seeking to deal with not getting my good desires. You know, right. However, that's not how I feel about four space. The four space feels like it's at, like it's the appropriate. And these are all value judgments. I realized that I'm saying it feels like the appropriate move often is, is to move to the four tool. Mm hmm. What's interesting you're using the word appropriate. Yeah. So the heart type is got more that sexual energy, just as the body has more that self-preservational and the headspace has more that social. And so you're saying as a one that you feel more appropriate in reaching into that the sexual energy, which draws on that four space as a role as a secondary natural expression. So other ones might listen to this and even other sexual ones who have a different stack might look at that completely differently. And so I think that's what we're advocating for is like, understand the movement that makes sense to you for you, but understand that that is not a consistent thing across ones. And that's definitely not a consistent thing, even even with sexual ones. But let me count for that a little bit, because I think what you're saying, Jeff is right from a center standpoint. So when a type one, type ones generally move from body to head very quickly. The heart center, that is the one that is least trusted, and oftentimes compressed or repressed. And so that is why it is appropriate. That's a good word for that for you to be drawing from the resource point of the four, because it's your heart center. And that's usually what we've learned is that whatever repressed instinct that's generally the one that it's the linchpin, it undoes a lot of things and it opens you up for growth. And so that's I think it makes sense in that, in that way, in terms of the instincts. Yes, the sexual does wake up the heart center, but in the one what's interesting about that, even though it makes them a little bit more emotional, a little bit more. There's a little bit more intensity. There's also this other part of them, which activates the seven. The sexual energy and the one activates the seven inside them very easily. That's where it's like I like variety. I like change. I like something new. I get bored of things that I've already been, I've already completed that. So now I want something new. Now, all ones have that, but the sexual instinct doubles down on that. And so then there's like a, I got to get the next thing, the next big thing, the next new challenge. And so we start to see that. But yeah, you will have, that's why the seven will be easier for you in many regards, but the heart center being that it's the one that tends to be more repressed for most ones. That's where the good work takes place. I feel like I'm monopolizing things, TJ, and I apologize. We're going to talk to TJ now. I'm not going to lie. I'm sitting back watching all of you argue semantics about something you definitely all agree on. Like that. That's, that's my experience here. Not, not argue, but was there an argument? I didn't notice one. We're new on saying. I don't think we're new on saying that's the thing. Yeah. What I like in your approach and what I'm hearing is one that I feel like you're elevating very subjective language about the individual that you're working with and saying. Any of you commonly can stereotype and we don't want to do that. We would really like to pull. We have this tool that's, that's, and it can be employed, but we want to understand who you are individually first. I think that's something, that's something I lack. I have a difficult time getting out of categories. Yeah. Because, and again, thinking repression and philosopher and all the things. The, so I really appreciate that side. I also appreciate the pragmatic angle that I'm hearing in terms of we're trying to get you from here to there. But you get to define there. And that's not my job to tell you where there is. Both of these things I think are incredibly wise and helpful in utilizing the tool. Well, I mean, I understand like my natural disposition is to do what you were talking about there, but I was just wrong enough times and consistently and wrong enough times that I eventually will go. Well, maybe I don't know Jack and I should go back to that listener seat again. Well, the tool of the night really appreciate that whole language between categories that the universal in the particular. And, and there, that's always going to play a role, you know, in the world of any typology, which is why you get reactions around typologies and people that are throw the entire thing out. And other people that social scientists who maybe are more predisposed and leaning more towards universal characteristics of, you know, you're from a, you know, you're Italian and you grew up in Italy. So therefore you must have these sort of characteristics. And it's like, well, no, that's a starting point. And it is part of them. It is, it is something that they might have been raised around, but they have their own unique experience with that. And so you might have somebody that's, you know, very, very non emotional and might have been raised in, say, Italy or France. In my case, my French, very French culture is highly emotional. And so my grandmother liked me because I was the emotion more the emotional, like expressive, intense kid. And the other siblings weren't because the culture and I embodied a lot of that culture. However, there are people that are, you know, in France or Italy or these other things that won't manifest these traits. Some were more collective cultures might have more of an individualistic approach and so on. So a lot of this is the entry point into a conversation. That's what we keep doing is like, so these, this is the description of a type one. Tell me how that shows up for you. And because we've done that so many times rather than going, well, that's because you're a one is because we've done that. We've had enough ones, enough nines enough fours enough threes enough to tell us, well, it doesn't show up quite that way for me shows up more like this. And, and over and over again, hearing that we do get generalities. That's why we have descriptions, right? Those are categories. We have descriptions of the types. But we've done that by hearing so many different types. So many of the same, the same type describe themselves that we've got a general approach to that and still even though it is remarkably accurate at this point because of how many people we've had this conversation with. We just, we still don't approach it with, well, this is a one in there. That's who you are. Say, well, this is how many ones have described themselves to us. What's that like for you? Yeah, similar. I mean, I suppose if you're using, if you're doing therapeutic work with somebody and they tell you they were abused by their mom. There will be a category. I mean, that just, we were talking about universals in particulars, but any language, all language has universal category. You know, it's a categorization. Exactly. Yeah. So, so if you're, and it's very common for people who are abused by their mom to exhibit these kinds of traits. And let's talk about these things because we need to get you from here to there and you get to define there. But you probably don't want to stay here. That's why we're doing therapy, right? Yeah. Yeah. But Joel brought up a really important phrase that we use all the time. Like, here's some things we've heard. How does this show up to you? And so it's always trying to keep it open as possible because a lot of times what shuts people down is, you know, therefore it means this. And we are very coming back to this. Well, we've heard this. What is it like for you? And I think that kind of languaging is really important for people to feel that they can have their own experience that their own experience is valid. That they don't have to fit into something. And then a lot of times they're even more free to be like, yeah, I would say the exact same thing. And sometimes they say, well, I would say it kind of like this. And then we learn, you know, again from them, and we have another quote to put into the list often. But that whole movement that I think we need to do with others, but we also need to do with ourselves, just be like, well, this is something that is consistent. This is something that comes up a lot. What is this really like for me to actually become more of a student of your own story through that process? Because I don't think we do that enough. Your own story has an incredible deep well of things to teach you. And there's also there is a there is, though, to come back to something I think I don't want to leave this on said there. There is a generally there is a north star for each type. They say that there's not a north star. That's not at all, because then you have nothing to aim your life towards. So that's where I wanted to close because it felt like with with a full acknowledgement of the particulars and what somebody feels like they're they're made for and perhaps what their dreams desires appetites end up expressing. Would you all be comfortable with with language of that sort that given a certain type there you can name. You know, this is commonly what threes look like at their healthiest. And this ought to be at least put on the table as here's some things that ought to be acknowledged. Yeah. So I would love you to talk about that. Yeah, I think that is remarkably helpful. It was helpful to me in my own growth because I needed to look at unhealthy characteristics of sevens to then go. Oh, that's me. You know, one type one who was in a senior role of leadership at a at an organization they had hired me to coach her because she was in a in a tough spot. And so she was showing up poorly in this team. She wasn't the lead team lead. She was in the team. And so I did some coaching around her and I started with counter balancing that this is a lot of what we do. We feel the type out feeling that she's defensive and she's protected. So I want to make it as comfortable as possible. So I did. We chatted. We talked talked about her dreams. What do you want to do? You know, and started talking about a dream that she had. She got choked up. And, and then I said, well, you're, you know, there's a lot of things I like that you described. It's really wonderful. It's part of the gift of the one. And, and then she slowed down. She said, okay, but what are some of the challenges of the one. And so that's when we got into, well, here's what they show up when they when they're in a real stress point. Here's how they they show up. Right. Here's where they show up. Here's the gift. We even have it in our literature. This is what a what a type one's gift to the world looks like. And she's like, yeah, totally resonate with that. But this part of the bad habits, like I'm there. I'm doing a lot of these. Right. So it's helpful, right? You've got something to look at. Like, yep, I'm there. And this is where I'd like to be. The as you're talking, the thing that was sent me is like when one of the things that Graham does for me is one is say this is your shadow given if we look at ones as a whole in places where they want to communicate. These are the places my life really is sabotaged. And, you know, it goes dysfunctional or is toxic. This is where this is where my oneness has a tendency to hurt other people. Being able to name that through the type of things is incredibly helpful. It's also really helpful to say this is not your shadow. As you were saying, your culture might be telling you that being boisterous and outgoing is how you need to show up in the world. But that's not one that's not your type. And so that's not a place that you need to work on in the same way you would need to work on your judgmentalism, you know, as it were for this type or that, you know, as it's. Anyway, I have a helpful epiphany for me. Last words from from you. I mean, I would just say thank you. Look, we, I like that we've been able to go down a nuanced conversation, but that still felt like it had head heart body in it like there, there's some practical things as far as how we want to walk out in the world. But it comes from a place of like this openness, this heart that knows that everything belongs and it's all part of the process. And we get into that the headspace of really thinking through as as pattern recognition, curious creatures of what it looks like to do this, because ultimately what we want to do is integrate these three centers. And to have these being a function of the way we show up in the world. And I think these kinds of conversations are helpful for that because we're doing it as a community. This isn't just one person's thought or one person speaking, that's in the conversation is the discovery and the growth and the exploration, both in the room and those that are part of the conversations and that will have their own as a result of this. And the the ripple effect of this, and that that has meaning. And so it's, it's just good to be in a space where we get to do that. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You got thoughts, Joel? I can't improve on that. So you're anything to teach? So I've been thinking throughout this whole conversation at different points. I've been thinking a lot about the self help industry and this sort of insert part sound right there on the slide. And I know that we have all seen it in our own ways, even within the Enneagram community and who are learning about this, but there's so much about this idea of self help and the way that a lot of it is approached. That is people looking for a formula to get me to the person that I think I'm supposed to be. Oh, yeah. As a business owner, I can read countless books about how to make the most possible money on my business. And if I did that, I would be a full betrayal of who TJ is. There's so many different ways that we could point to about this subject of bettering myself, where we spend way too much energy trying to turn ourselves into someone else. That's right. And if this theme has come up in my life over and over again, and if we believe that we are created with a purpose, if we believe that all we are is dust in this particular moment, we are here to have an impact on the world. That may not mean that we change the world entirely. It may only mean that one other person is impacted by us. We're here to exist. And part of that existence is that we get to decide what we do with our life. And so many times we are faced with the question of what do we want and we're answering someone else's answer. And what I love about the Enneagram is that we are part of the navel gazing that is good and necessary is what do I want. And even coming to this with the instincts even thinking about the way that like in at a party, am I really social at it when I'm sitting with my partner at coffee, am I really in the zone in that point like all of these different ways that our social our instincts show up. Like, what do we want and how do we get there. Can like, this is about getting down to what are you supposed to be bringing to the world. And by the way, what you want is part of that. There is no other way of getting there. Like, if by placing people around me, that's supposed to somehow meet my need. Well, good luck. Because that's going to, you're just constantly going to be doing that and never quite getting there. But if what you truly love to do happens to also meet an actual need out into the world. And as Jim said earlier, I'm convinced of this. Who you are at your best is who the world needs is what the world needs. And surprisingly, it's always shocking to people when they finally start to step out into their, what I call their own truth of being true to who they are and living that way. It's like, people are, well, thank you. Like, we actually like that version of you. And so, man, I'm so glad we're finishing on this. Really good DJ. One of the reasons I really like your all's material is one, you're using very different vocabulary and coming from a different place. And I feel like I'm coming from. And so it's always challenging to me in terms of like, trying to get my head around. It's a similar topic and yet very different in its expression. So I imagine our listeners are going to hear that throughout. We'd love to, at some point, returning to reference points and that's a dinosaur bone that needs to get uncovered a bit. As opposed to TJ, I love semantics and nuance. I'm a professional philosopher. So, but teasing that out, your work here has been incredibly helpful in getting us moving in the right direction. So thank you for showing up as it were. Yeah, we usually say no to these, but it was really good to be here. Yes. You're that Jeff, we're winning. You are, you're winning. The thing actually that I realized halfway through is I've listened to so many of your episodes that I jumped right past my script and I was like, these are actually just the things I want to talk to them. I talked to them about building on what I've already listened to. So dear listener, they have a fantastic podcast. You should just binge that and then come back to this episode after you've listened to the few hundred episodes that they've put down, which are filled with rich meaning and lots of wisdom. But, but that's what I got. You got anything else, TJ? I got nothing. He's Jim's art and Joel Hubbard. You can find them at theartofgrowth.com. .org. They do lots and lots of stuff there, both in terms of what you are doing certifications. Lots of coaching, corporate coaching, individual coaching, classes, group coaching, all kinds of stuff. Yes, we do group coaching certification and one-on-one or individual couples coaching. That's like the consumer side of our world. But then I'm very excited about so much of what we've been doing with teams this year. Taking teams through like a five-week process where a work team, like they go from learning the Instagram to using it right away because we don't want it in the corporate world. They want to be really practical. So they are very focused on not what do we learn the Instagram, but how do we use it? We do stuff that they start using it right away to develop trust, to be customized in their communication, to have more productive conflict, to understand the difference between the intent they have and the impact that they have, the intent they want and the impact they have, and all of these things that really help like a group of people who are trying to work together and need to succeed at a high level to do that. And that stuff is just a blast. Like tomorrow morning, albeit Joel's at like 7.30 in the morning because we're going to go up and we're training 40 people at a new company tomorrow. And this is the kind of thing that is such a blast. Strong. We'll find their stuff online. Do look up their podcast. One of their 10 podcasts, in fact. And again, just could not speak more highly of the type specific podcasts that they have. I believe each type has six or seven episodes, correct? Ten, I think. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Each of the podcast has like, if you realize you're a type and you're new to the Enneagram, if you go through that, you're going to hear people that you go, "Oh, these people have been on the journey longer. This is amazing." Or you're going to go, "I'm not here. I thought I was this type and I'm not." And that's been one of the most helpful things that a lot of people have given us feedback on. They've actually been able to identify their type or understand someone in their circle a lot better. It's brilliant. C.J. Do you got anything else? I got nothing, man. C.J. Wilson. He's officially awesome. I'm Jeff Cook. And who you aren't isn't interesting. [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [MUSIC PLAYING] [BLANK_AUDIO]
