(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to today's episode of Red Eye. I'm Jane Williams. (upbeat music) In 1971, a cookbook called "Diet for a Small Planet" hit the shelves. It was the first major book to note the environmental impact of meat production as wasteful and as a contributor to global food scarcity. The book argued for environmental vegetarianism, practicing a vegetarian lifestyle out of concern over animal-based industries and the production of animal-based products. The book sold over three million copies worldwide and it was groundbreaking for arguing that world hunger is not caused by lack of food, but by ineffective food policy. The book, revised for this time, has been launched in its 50th anniversary edition. Frances Marla Pei is the author of "Diet for a Small Planet." She is the author or co-author of 20 books about world hunger, living democracy and the environment. And I am delighted to welcome her to Red Eye today. Hello, Frances, congratulations. - Oh, thank you so much, Marie. - I know you're giving a presentation at Banyan Books here in Vancouver on Sunday. And that is where I bought my first paperback copy of the book in 1975. - Love it, I love it. - You have a little connection with Canada too. - Well, I have a lot of heart feelings for Canada and one of them, this feeling in part comes from a memory that I had from when the book first arrived and I did a lot of publicity, of course, in the US and then I was invited to Canada and I did a tour and the most amazing thing to me was that actually the Canadian interviewer had read my book and I said, what, you in Canada, you actually read the book of somebody you interview, I've never heard such a thing. And I was immediately impressed with your culture. - Well, I wish I could say that every journalist in Canada reads every book they interview people about but I'm not sure that we can say that with confidence. - Well, I was impressed and I will always be. - Well, one thing that I was impressed by that made a big impression on me when I bought the book in 1975 was this concept of a protein factory in reverse. Remind us of that metaphor and why it's important. - Well, that was the big shock for me because I have to paint the scene, the emotional scene of that time. Starting about in 1969 when I began to dive into this, the world was in the midst of this scarcity scare. That's what I think of it as. I mean, it was, people were terrified, especially in this country because books like the population bomb, it felt almost like a literal explosion that, oh my gosh, we'd overrun the Earth's capacity to feed us and we had to cut back and young women were saying they couldn't have children out of ethical concern because there's not enough. And I felt, okay, I don't have a path. I need to go deep and ask questions. Is this true? I thought, oh, if I could understand why hunger, that that would unravel the mysteries of economics and politics and I'd have direction in my life. And it worked because I went to the library, I put the numbers together and I said, oh my, there is more than enough for all of us, but we have created a system that is actually shrinking our capacity to feed people. I'll just give you one big stat now that we use about 80% of all of our agricultural resources, including grazing land, all of our agricultural land, including grazing, we use that to produce livestock, to produce largely, a lot of that is beef and they provide, this livestock provide 18% of our calories. So we take 80% and we produce 18% of our calories from that. And I said, it's changed somewhat over the years, but I said, wait, wait, wait, that is a protein factory in reverse. And I've continued then to ask the question, behind the question, why, why, why? - Francis, your book was one of the first ones that I read that connected our personal choices. In this case, eating vegetarian with global issues of hunger and food security. Yet I think you'll probably agree that the solutions call for systemic change. So how have you come to think of the connection between personal action and systemic change in these 50 years? - Well, I have always felt like the more that we align our daily life with the world that we want, that we know is best for all, the more powerful we feel to ourselves and therefore to others. And I also know in this connected world, I like to say there are no parts, only participants in this life that we're living. Someone is always watching. Every choice we make and don't make is creating ripples. But I think that the real thing, I called it my act of rebel sanity. I knew that my choices wouldn't change the world, but they changed me. And I then felt more confident to ask the next question and the next question. And I think that's true for a lot of us. The less we feel we're compromising ourselves, the more we feel aligned and able to speak. - Arguably, climate change has risen to one of the most important and impactful problems that we face as a species. What do we know about how plant-based diets can contribute to solutions there? - Oh, well, of course that was something I wasn't even aware of then. And it is in the new 50th anniversary edition a very central point that our food system overall contributes as much as 37% of greenhouse gas emissions. About 40% of that is livestock. So our food system is absolutely key that we've been told by scientists who've studied this that if we move to a plant, and now I'd love to call it plant and planet-centered diet, that we could reduce agricultural greenhouse gas emissions by two thirds. So it's very, very linked. We also know, in terms of climate and overall biodiversity threat, because we're facing what's been called the sixth great extinction. And a lot of that is because of our bean-centered diet that takes up so much land, that we are destroying rainforest. And we know that rainforests are essential for absorbing carbon and holding it. And particularly the Amazon. And most of that destruction going on in the Amazon today, what is it from? It's from livestock production, both grazing and feed grains. - In terms of our own kind of choices around this and the choice to be vegetarian, I'm curious about your ideas about how fundamentalist we need to be about it. Because I'm vegetarian myself, but I consider myself not to be very fundamentalist about it. And I sometimes find that people want to police your eating if you make a transgression. - Oh, well, I'm not in favor of finger wagging. I don't think that changes people's hearts. And what I've tried to do is to offer much, much more interesting and satisfying and affirming way of being. And part of that is how I eat. That it changed me so much for the better. It wasn't a sacrifice. So, and what I mean by changing me, I always had a really conflicted, I was one of those young women always counting calories and trying to lose weight. And then when I moved to a plant centered diet, I just, all the worry fell away and I just wanted what was good for my body. And so I think maybe that's true for others, but in any case, I don't believe in, you should do, you should. I believe in, hey, this really works. It's good for us, it's good for the planet. It's good for our farmers. I think when you choose, for example, organic plant food, you are not only protecting yourself, but you're protecting farmers from that poison. So it's just a feel good all the way around. And also, I think I want to add here that one big change since I wrote diet for a small planet is the move to ultra processed food being central to our diet. 60% of the calories in the US are now coming from processed foods that are so lacking in nutrition. So this pathway of whole foods and eating more in the plant world, however much you can make that move, it's just a positive, a positive. - Many people, Francis, turn to vegetarianism and to veganism out of a concern for animal welfare. What are we seeing both in terms of industrial livestock production and the survival of wild animals? - Well, that's a huge factor. We have destroyed something like, what did David Ann Bors say, like 80% of all mammals and replace them with our chosen food product? I really, back to this core idea that a plant-centered diet that is varied is one that can protect us against this increase in loss of biodiversity, which is threatening so many species today. So that's just another piece of why it feels so good to move in this direction. And for animal cruelty, I mean, I so admire people who are motivated, essentially they're just hard for not having animals trapped, this crammed into these tight spaces in these, what they call CAFOs, these feed lots that just squeeze them all together. I so think that is another relief to know that you're not contributing, you're not reinforcing that way of being. - You know, Francis, I've always had this incredible admiration for farmers, my ancestors were farmers here in Canada. Tell us how does industrial livestock and commodity crop production affect the ability of small-scale farmers around the world to operate a viable farm? - Well, this, what I think of as this corporate chemical food system is one that is increasingly, increasingly controlled by monopolies. So this very brutal form of capitalism that we have just continues to reward wealth, reward wealth at the top and create fewer and fewer companies. So what ends up then is whether you're talking about beef processing or chicken processing, you name it, or gray trade, there used to be dozens of companies competing, now they're three or four. And so farmers are at the mercy of monopolies to buy their products. So we've seen over the last decade, farmers getting about 20% less per are a consumer dollar than they did, you know, even a short time ago. So farmers are at the mercy of monopoly and it is the product of this system that is creating both a heavy meat-centered diet and a highly processed. You know, I often ask, you know, how could such a bright species as our species is be killing itself by feeding itself? That makes no sense. And so I try to answer that by talking about how we've trapped into a certain way of believing about the market as if it were some magical force rather than simply the rules we make that in this case are concentrating power against our wellbeing. - Let's turn our attention to food and to eating because "Diet for a Small Planet" is a book about ideas but it's also a cookbook. And I was joking with some friends that as a young woman who experienced mainstream food in the suburbs in the 1960s, Tabouli was an absolute revelation and I thank you for that recipe. What can we look for in the 50th anniversary edition to inspire us? You've got guests chefs as well. - Yes, quite a few. 15 brilliant chefs contributed wonderful recipes and you know, you mentioned the Tabouli. I have a friend who, my dearest, you know, I've known her for 55 years, I guess. She has Lebanese roots. And when I put chickpeas in the Tabouli to give it some protein (laughs) she had a fit, but she got over it. So the curt, the chefs that have contributed, one of them, and I especially wanna call out, is Bryant Terry, who wrote the book "Black Food" and just a brilliant, brilliant man and leader. And he contributed a recipe that I'm looking at now called Bryant's Slow-Brazed Mustard Greens. And so they're sprinkled throughout the book, these celebrity chefs, but all of the recipes have been tweaked to bring them into the modern era. And I just am so delighted at this invitation, again, away from the wagging finger and say, "Oh, try this or try that." And so we signal in each of the recipes, which can are vegan and which can easily be made vegan. So that makes, kind of opens up the mind. And I really also just try to encourage people to find, you know, just ideas about different ways of putting things together and then experiment yourself, you know, have fun in the kitchen. Try different spices. One of the things that I did, you know, just a very simple thing. There's a beans and rice recipe that's been in the book from the beginning. And it was just taking the classic beans and rice from Latin American recipes and then changing the spices and herbs to make it Italian and called it Roman rice and beans and put some more veggies in it. And so just, that's the spirit of the book, is to experiment and then find things you like and then, you know, see what maybe your family likes a little more this way or that way and not feel bound, but feel like you're having a good time. - It also seems like such a celebration of food culture as well in different food cultures. - Yes, yes, we have Persian, we have Indian. And I just think that this opened up my world, who other cuisines, I grew up in Fort Worth, Texas, also known as cow town. And, you know, my mom, we had meatloaf and we had hamburger and that was always the center of the meal. And yeah, that was okay, but now the wonder, I mean, that's what I want to inspire is people feeling the wonder of all these tastes and textures and colors that are in the plant world that the meat looks pretty boring compared to it. So that's what I'm hoping. - Francis, the practice of democracy has also become one of your great passions. How do you connect the dots between food and food security as an issue and the issues of justice and democracy? - Well, you now know how serious the problems are, just the continuing biodiversity crisis, the climate crisis and none of these crises, hunger crisis continues. None of them can be solved without democracy. And so I have said many times, pretty much from the beginning, the problem is not the scarcity of food, the problem is the scarcity of democracy. And what I mean by that is that I don't think any of us would choose this world. If the majority of people would never say, oh yes, I want another child to go hungry today, or yes, I want to obliterate another species. So if we together, that is what democracy means to me, that the majority of us, and we're learning creatures, so we're learning as we go, that we actually have a voice in making decisions. Unfortunately, and I'll speak about my country in particular, we have extreme corruption of our democracy by private interests. And the agribusiness industry sends lobbyists to Washington even more than the gas and oil. We have 20 overall, 20 lobbyists that are applying the corporate interests in Washington for every single person we've elected to represent us. So that's not democracy to me. So that's what I mean. Simply the, I call it living democracy, it's alive in us, it's something that enlivenes us because we feel that we're engaged to have a voice. And that's really always been there, but now I'm really going to focus even more on it because I think that it is the question behind the question, is the foundation of answers for every single challenge we have today? - Every day we're faced with daunting challenges, environmentally, politically, socially, how do you see the role of hope in keeping us working together on solutions? - Hope is absolutely essential. And I want to make a critical distinction here, that I believe that human beings do not need optimism, they don't need certainty that we can make this through, make our way through these problems. All we need, I believe, is a sense of possibility that maybe my action could make a difference. Maybe if I speak up and step up and I start changing my life, my friends, and maybe I can make a difference, that's all we need. And so I call myself a possibleist, meaning that it is possible that I can make a difference. And I really do strongly believe that that's enough to get us going. - Well, it's really been wonderful talking with you today, and I am so grateful for the original book, and I'm grateful that we're seeing the 50th anniversary edition now. - Thank you so very much. - I've been speaking with Francis Morlape. Francis is the author of Diet for a Small Planet, which has been republished in its 50th anniversary edition. (upbeat music) - The Red Eye Collective is based in Vancouver. You can check us out at co-opradio.org/redeye. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
From now until January 11, Writers Talking - a series of eight conversations from our archives.
Diet for a Small Planet was the first major cookbook to address the environmental impact of meat production. Author Frances Moore Lappé advocated for a vegetarian lifestyle out of concerns over animal-based industries and products. She also argued that world hunger is not caused by a lack of food but by ineffective food policy. In January 2022, Frances Moore Lappé joined Lorraine Chisholm to discuss the new 50th anniversary edition of the book.
