(upbeat music) - Princess Jeff, it's New Year. If our work nurtures your heart, we'd love for you to consider joining aroundthecircle.org as something like a great gym membership. We will have a full 15 video Enneagram college course up starting February 1st. We will have all nine hours of our two-hour deep dives into the nine types with the most informed people that we know, such as the one that we are releasing today with Beth McCord. Those are all gonna be up this spring. As many of you know, the first two-thirds of our book draft is up and ready to read and new announcement. We have collected all of our work on instincts, what some call subtypes, and have placed that in a book format as well, and that will release at aroundthecircle.org by the end of January. You can read it there. So much good for your heart to start the year. Moreover, in January, we will be interviewing Jackie Brewster, Steph Barron Hall, Hunter Mobley, Dr. Billy Shui, and a handful of other amazing people and the full interviews will only be available at aroundthecircle.org. Take a look, jump in to start your year well, and may all good things be yours. - I'm Jeff Cook and I'm TJ Wilson. - And this is Around The Circle. ♪ I'm walking slowly ♪ ♪ I'm taking my time ♪ ♪ All I could talk in is ♪ ♪ Starting to rhyme ♪ ♪ Letting go ♪ ♪ Only letting go and strive ♪ ♪ I just can't get enough of this ♪ ♪ Beautiful ♪ - The Enneagram is a map of the human personality. It's a tool for navigating relationships. It creates language for what motivates us and helps us look at the way we look at everything else. Most importantly, the Enneagram is a mirror 'cause sometimes you need help seeing yourself. My name is Jeff Cook. I'm a long-time professor of philosophy in Greeley, Colorado, with me is TJ Wilson. Coffee guru, lover of theology, and Enneagram ninja. - Hello. - My man. - Hey, hey. - We are talking with one of our favorite people in the world. - Yes. - The one and only Beth McCord. - Hey, welcome back. - Hey, hey, thank you for having me back. This is gonna be so fun. - Yes. - Beth is not only an Enneagram expert and can talk with great depth and understanding about all the types, but we get a chance to talk to her about that number, which is closest to her, which is the number nine, which is her type. - The best one. - So we are doing the deep dive into nines. This may be in all of podcast world in the history of time. We may have more Enneagram nine knowledge if anything at the table, presently has ever been assembled. - Maybe. - I will be the first one to hear the goodness. I suppose there's probably been some panels, but. - Yeah, absolutely. - They only know their own experience. That doesn't count. - Well, for those of you familiar with this series, we are going through our top 10 questions for each of the Enneagram types. Expose the different layers elements of each of the types. And we're gonna do that with Beth now. So I'm curious, Beth, where are you right now? - I am in my studio. So we live in just south of Nashville, Tennessee. And so like a good Nashvilleian, you gotta have a studio in your home. Well, yeah, so being your Enneagram coach, we do lots of online courses and webinars and all that kind of good stuff. And my husband was so kind to put a studio in our, what was used to be our walk-in attic space. No longer is it that. So that is currently where I'm at. - It's good to use the attic. - It is, yeah. - Much better than ours, which is what attic ought to be called. - Our garages become that. - Well, the first question that all the types need to answer is what is their motive, the way we phrase this with our first question is just what do you want most? When thinking about your nyness and how that gets expressed, how would you say this is as a nine, this is what I want most? - Wow. I mean, I think the biggest thing for people to understand about a nine is like anytime you ask a nine a question, the first thing I feel is like a deer in headlights. Even though I have the questions that you're gonna ask me today in front of me, once it's asked to me, I'm slightly panicked inside or a wide range of panic. So sometimes it's like, oh, no, I got this, you know, maybe to, I literally have no idea. And the reason why I say that is because the nyness, it's like we have an internal fog and that fog, the fog's density changes. So there are seasons or topics that I have no clue about myself. And then there's other seasons where maybe I've grown or I've learned about myself, I've done some self-awareness and that fog has become more like a haze. But no matter what, we have anywhere from a haze to a deep fog and the deeper and thicker the fog, the slower we kind of have to walk, which means like processing and understanding ourselves, which can really annoy some nygram types. I have only many. - I have only many. (laughing) - Yeah, exactly. But what I do, and this all gets to my point of what I want most. For us, we, in order for us to understand ourselves, we need space and time to walk our own path of discovery and understanding and depending on how thick and dense that fog is, we'll determine how long and how hard that is going to take. And depending on the internal or external pressure, put upon us to answer that question, greatly impacts our ability to answer that question and the time it takes to answer that question. Because, let's say that the three of us were at my house and we step outside and let's just pretend that there is, let's say, I live outside of Nashville, but let's say we live in downtown Nashville, like we walk outside and there's some stores just down the block and we wanna go to the pizza shop. Well, for the eights, it's a clear day. It's bright and sunny. They can see exactly where they're going, no problem at all. They're gonna get there in like the fastest time possible. Then you got other types, they're gonna take their time but then us nines, again, we have that fog. And it's going to take us, however long it needs to take to get to that location. And so, but the great thing about fog is when you take the next step or when you're driving, you can see a little bit ahead of you, depending on how much fog there is and how dense it is, you can see right around you. So you wanna keep moving forward and nines, that's a huge encouragement to all of us to keep moving towards self-awareness. It can feel daunting, it can feel frustrating, everyone's upset with us 'cause we don't know what we want, we get upset with ourselves for not knowing what we want. But if we just take those steps forward with whatever pace that we can take over time, we are actually gonna get to that place that we need to be. And might I remind everyone, the tortoise beats the hair. So if we're just taking our time and doing it step-by-step, we will actually get there and we'll probably get there with much more depth and clarity and understanding that not only benefits us, but everyone around us. So, I'll let to be said, what I want to know most, or what I want most. - What do you want most? - I would, I wanna know myself with clarity. And I say that without any hindrance, because if I don't, if I'm in the fog, I'm going to pause, I'm going to question, I'm going to not move forward as quickly. But the more that there's a haze, and the more there's clarity and vision that I can see, the more I can move quickly and actually go towards the things that I'm actually wanting to obtain. So I'd say just the clarity, the understanding, the insight of myself and the more I am trying to people please others, which is literally my default, the more the fog gets thick and the harder this process is. So I would say what I want most is clarity and the ability to assert my own. - Take away TJ. - Man, I love that. There's so much there, I love it. I love this idea of the fog, I would, if I ever use it, I'm going to make one little tweak and suggest that when nine step out the door, we don't know we want pizza yet. - That would be true. We're following whoever we're with, right? Oh wait, there goes the eight. Okay, I guess I'm going to go this way. - Okay, that's where we're going. I don't know what it is. And then when we get to the pizza place, it's like, oh, okay, I can have pizza. - Yeah, a superpower we have that I would, that I don't think people necessarily like because they won't be opposite. And I think we do too. We know what we don't want. And that can give you clues into the direction that you actually do want to head in. Like, okay, you don't want to turn left, got that. Okay, so do you want to go forward or do you want to go right? And that can kind of help us. And I wish it was the opposite. I wish we just knew exactly what we wanted, but that's just not the norm. - But that fog is ever present. There are sometimes where the fog descends while I am listening to someone speak. Like in the middle of their sentence, I may lose half of it. - Yep. - There are times when the fog is so thick that I'm not even sure that I'm outside. And there are times when like, like I'm just moving through the fog, regardless of what's happening. And I don't really know where I'm going. There are times when I actually, you know, I'm going to sit down and hang out until the fog dissipates. - Yep. - Like that idea. And it is about, I don't think there's a need for a surety. I don't feel like is the right word for me, but I want to have clarity to make the quote unquote, right decision, not necessarily correct, but whatever fits, the thing that fits for this moment, I want to be able to know that this is the right thing for this time. - And when you say that, so I loved some of the things that you said, because for me, you know, it's kind of like when we're driving in fog and we really can't see much ahead of us. If we at least have a cars, red lights in front of us, we at least know we're kind of going in the direction, right? You know, and we gotta, you know, we gotta be careful, you know, how close you are to them. And that's kind of like, you know, when we walk out of the door and we don't know which way we want to go or what we need to have happen, a lot of times we'll see someone move in a direction and we'll follow. - Yeah. - And that can be good or bad. It's not necessarily one or the other, but it gets in the more negative category when I'm doing it just out of ease versus taking the time to know my own path. It's like, do I really want to take the time to figure this out? Or am I just going to follow someone? And usually I just follow someone. And during that situation, the fog doesn't ever get lighter because I am not trying to understand my true self, my path that I want to go down. But I'm like, hey, that's okay. You know, they're right here or I might put my hand on their shoulder and just kind of let them lead me. - Yep. - Look around and see if you can see anything else on the way. Oh, that's cool. - Yeah. - And they look like a statue. - We're just walking along and maybe they'll, we'll get to that restaurant and let's say it's a restaurant, a food choice. Like I don't like oysters, me personally. And like if we were to show up, that person that I was, you know, following and we showed up to an oyster bar, I'd be like, oh, gosh, no, I don't want to be here. And then everyone's like, well, then why were you heading in this direction? And it's like, I don't know, I was just following you. I'm just along for the ride. - And so, and they're like, well, what do you want? And then I'm like, I don't know, you know, then it's, we're stuck right back in that category. And so that's why I kind of go back to what I really want is clarity of myself. And if I were, if I were to put on, I don't know if this is a selfish thing, but if I were to just say it bluntly, I just want it to be easy. Like, why can't the fog just lift? But that will get into a bunch of the other questions about peace. But yeah, so I think that's, that's what I would say I want most is clarity. Because I think clarity, my own clarity actually is what creates inner peace and external peace. And that doesn't necessarily mean peace like no one's, you know, against each other or there's no conflict or there's no, but if we all know that we are being clear within ourselves and with others, there is to a certain level a sense of peace. - Yeah. - And so, yeah. And this is kind of fun because I've never really had this kind of conversation. And so I'm also learning about myself as we walk through the fog together. - Love it. - I was gonna say neither one of you have apparently read any, any of your books because the correct answer to what do I want as a nine is for things to be harmonious, calm, peaceful. - We did say that. - Well, I think, and that's why I said that towards the end 'cause it's like, I feel like there I will experience harmony and peace when I have clarity of myself. Now, again, that doesn't mean that I will have the harmony that a less aware nine is looking for 'cause like, there's a harmony that a average to less healthy nine is looking for and that is everyone be happy even if I'm not happy. And, but I think real harmony and real peace comes from knowing myself in a way that I am granting and myself the permission to assert my voice and my thoughts, knowing that people could and will disagree with me and that that's perfectly fine 'cause I'm okay with me. - I would love to speak to, I hadn't thought about this. I thought we were gonna have to spend a lot of time on processing center later on. And I felt like your answer just nailed everything that I've kind of been searching for language for four nines in that three sixes and nines all have energy that's going both inward and outward and as you're processing, it's a very cognitive where nines are a body type and yet to understand who you are in the world, the pivot's gonna move to your head and it's not gonna be just inward, it's gonna be outward as you were saying. It's not only what's going on inside me but what's going on inside me in relation to those around me and that that's where it feels like that's where the sweet spot is of and it's in that spaces where the ease, the harmony, the connection is longing to be had. And again, it feels like it's a very cognitive move. Yeah. - Mm-hmm, yeah. I feel like it's easier for me to be focused on others and when anyone is and it's like there's a wide range of this is like a spectrum, anyone is disgruntled, upset, unhappy, whatever you wanna call it. Anything that is not happy, basically, or pleased, it consumes my energy, my thoughts, my emotions, my focus, it's like a magnet, it just derails me. Unless I am grounded and aware of myself in a healthy way 'cause even when I'm healthy, I can still get derailed. But if I'm in a healthier spot and am able to ground myself, I can kind of get back into who I am, what my clarity is, and then move in the right direction. But it's really hard because like, okay, that person's upset and then I have to funnel through all these thoughts and feelings like, is this okay? Is this not okay? Is it okay if they're just upset? Like, can I be okay or are they okay? I mean, there's just a billion things going on one time. But I think the sad thing for the nine is that I am quickly willing to forego my own peace in order to make others happy for a facade of peace. - I wanna circle back to that 'cause that was the other thing that hit me, the illustration of not knowing what you wanna eat or if we're going your own peace. I wanna pair that later with being action-repressed and just moving away from one's own body into those other centers. But I think that's incredibly helpful. Anything else on motive, TJ? - This is such a fascinating sort of other angle to me about what that desire for harmony can look like. And very much like wanting to see through the fog, wanting to get a little bit more clarity of myself, what I want, what I desire in the spaces that I'm in, helps me understand what is needed in those spaces. Like the less fog there is, we're more able to embrace the harmony that is out there and figure out where things go. - But we can't have harmony if we are for going ourself. - Yep. - And but that's the more typical, easier path that the nine will go. - Right, avoiding conflict. - But we'll think we're having harmony 'cause like, hey, everyone in my family right now is happy and it's like, yeah, but are you happy, you know? And it's like, we won't even answer that question for ourselves. It's like, I don't even wanna answer that question. I don't even wanna have to look at it because if everyone else is happy, I don't even care if I'm frustrated or upset or disgruntled, like that doesn't need to matter. I will just shut down, I will numb out. So we trick ourselves that there's harmony around us or peace and really there is not because we don't have the internal harmony and peace. - We're kind of sitting on this. So I'll just, there's no reason that these need to be in order. I'm not one who needs to have things a certain way. I will let you know, Beth. - What I'm hearing just as you're y'all are speaking is something like I'm willing to at cost to myself, go for some other goal. And the goal ends up being an emotional cognitive one. It's not a physical one, like I will forego my appetite, my desire for pizza in order to have some sort of, I assume your mental life. You are foregoing comfort in one sphere. I would be curious if it's foregoing comfort in the more mental sphere. - I would say yes, but I would say that it is a gut reaction first and foremost. So when I-- - Of when things are broken or-- - Yeah, so like when someone else is, like I said, any level of being upset or unhappy, my whole entire system is disrupted. And it's almost like an internal vibration of uncomfortableness. And depending on the level of their dissatisfaction, the level of intensity of that by internal vibration that's uncomfortable. And how I describe it with, like so, when I describe the gut center, the AIDS 9s and 1s, the AIDS are like a two liter diet coke with the lid off of it. And life and circumstances are mentos being thrown in. And then they viscerally, you know, react. But then it's over, you know, it's done. Like, you know, they express themselves or whatever. The ones, on the other hand, are like a two liter coke with the lid, you know, half on half off. It's just, you know, it's not all the way tight, but it's, you know, it's almost there. But life and circumstances are shaking it up. And so it, the anger of the one kind of comes out sideways. You know, they're trying to repress it, but it still comes out and it can be kind of this cold, nit-picky judgment. But as 9s, we've got our two liter coke and we have that sucker tight. It's like, I am not letting whatever is internal to come out and disrupt anything. So we got it really, really solidly tight. But life and circumstances are just shaking us up. And I mean, the littlest shake to the greatest of shakes, right? And as we know, with, it doesn't matter, I mean, it does matter how much a coke is being shaken up, but even a little bit, there's a lot of disruption going on, right? A lot of pressure internally. And so no matter what level of pressure is being built up, all I can think of is please make it stop. And then I'm thinking of all the ways that I can make it stop this body sensation that I'm absorbing the energy, the uncomfortable energy of others. And so all I wanna do is either make other people happy as quick as possible, or take my two liter coke and go somewhere else and put it on a shelf to let it calm down. The unfortunate thing is sometimes that lid does come off and there are ramifications and consequences to that. So it's, every once in a blue moon, get really upset or rage or overly express themselves and nobody really knows what to do with it 'cause it's so infrequent. And then it just causes its own ripple effect. Now in some ways, my body feels like, ooh, okay, you know, got that out of there. But I also can see externally the ramifications that that has had. And therefore I internally become upset or distraught because of my own, like my own actions. And so my thought process goes into, I shouldn't have asserted myself, which basically means I shouldn't have erupted. Shouldn't have expressed my anger in whatever form or fashion I did. I will double down and make sure that lid doesn't come off again. And therefore we go the same issues and problems versus learning how to, when life and circumstances and people or whatever it is are shaking us up, how do we undo the lid? Like all of us have done, where you undo it just a little and then before it gets too crazy and overflowing, you close it and let it kind of calm down a little bit and open it a little and close it. That would be, for me as a type nine, learning how to understand my internal world that I need to express myself, but I need to do it when it's happening before it gets too big so that I can have more self-emotional regulation in this space so that I can assert my voice, assert my feelings to others and ask or say what I need and have boundaries. But that is one of the hardest things I'm gonna ever do on this planet. And I mean, for nines too. But that would be the goal for us nines to recognize it's not a either or and I think that's how we've lived our lives. I either keep myself the lid tightly on and either I'm going to run away, withdraw, or I'm going to eventually explode. And usually the explosion happens with our family. Now my daughter said once 'cause I said, "I feel like I'm Dr. Banner and I become the Hulk." And she's like, "Mom, that may be true for you, "but your Hulk is like a foot tall." (both laughing) But to me it feels like it's like the real thing, like the real Hulk and I mean, I was glad that what it felt like to me wasn't what others are experiencing, but it feels horrible. And I think that for us nines to recognize there is a healthier way to express ourselves. All that to be said, I'm going back into, I know you were talking about the cognitive space, which there's a lot going on in the mind of the nine because I'm processing things that are happening externally and internally, but a lot of it has to do with the uncomfortableness of the energy that I am absorbing or picking up from others. - Yeah, and like thinking about that and sort of meshing it with the idea of the fog, it is a felt sense of that fog. It's like the energy comes into our bodies. It comes in, like we often feel it before we have any idea what that it's actually there. - Absolutely. - All of a sudden, it's like I'm shaking and I don't know why. Why did I just start sweating so badly? What happened? And it's because there is something tangible happening in this relationship, in this interaction. It could be good, it could be bad, it could be like, we feel it in our bodies, but then we have to figure out what to do with it with our brains, with our minds and the fog being there, that coming to a place where we understand what those feelings are and what to do with it, that is so much more cognitive than it is felt. We just, we don't know what the fog is doing to us. - Yeah, I'm sorry, is the fog your intuition knowledge? Then I miss that, that's good. - So you are displaced or you're moving away from your primary center. This will be, I mean, just again to anger, I'm speaking here. You are taking the world in through your intuitions, but the fog is that you don't, you can't connect to your intuitions. - Yeah. - So it's not the mental side, which is more deductive. This is, you're trying to get in tune with your intuitional knowledge and that's the fog. Am I wrong there? - Hmm. I'm trying to think, I think it, I think the, this is why it's so frustrating. It's like I love being a nine, it's so amazing. And it's so frustrating. And I know every type could say that about their type. The frustrating thing is the fog, it envelops my intuition, my gut, my emotions and my head. - Okay. - And so it's all of it and that doesn't mean it's all of it at the same degree in any moment because sometimes I might feel, I can feel my emotions. Like I can feel my anger a lot, which is interesting 'cause I have a lot of nines that say, I don't even know what anger feels like and I'm like, oh my gosh, what are you talking about? - I am ever-present, it's all, I always feel it. - Yes, I go, it's like a volcano just simmering underneath the hood right there. Now, I don't know this because I've done a lot of self-work and understanding, but well, actually I know, growing up with a brother that teased me a lot, I ended up getting complex PTSD. And so I'm hyper-vigilantly waiting for someone to do something that's going to upset me or hurt me or whatever, now that I don't live in that world anymore, but everything can feel that I'm on the precipice of that. And so that frustration that I had growing up, I think as, for me as a nine, even though I was always trying to keep the peace, the target always moved and I could never keep the peace. And so there was always this anger and frustration, like why can't we just get along? Like why can't you just like me? So that being said, I do feel a sense of anger, but I think it has more to do, I was talking to my counselor about it and he said, Beth, it's actually terror 'cause rage is terror and you work constantly in that state and so your body is just waiting for something to happen again. And so it's just good for me to understand all that again. I think all of these things that when we unpack our story, they help us no matter what type we are to understand why we react the way we react. And I as a nine, I'm going to react to my past trauma in a nine way. I am always forever trying to keep that lid on the two liter Coke and go along with everyone, but then sometimes it just erupts and or I withdraw and I numb out. So I think it's really helpful for us to understand all of those different layers, but all that could go back to what you were saying, I do feel the fog affects all of those areas. Would you agree? Yeah, yeah. And the clarity that we're seeking is to be able to see through the fog to all those different places to. Right, right. When the information comes in through our body, we're still struggling to figure out what it is and where it goes. Yeah. Like we stepped out into the fog and now like we have this information, we know there are buildings around us, but we can't see what they are until we start to get some of that clarity, move a little closer. And I think this is what could be really frustrating for those that are not nines because and I do. I feel bad for other people cause it's like, okay, well, so what are you thinking? I don't know, you don't know. What are you feeling? Nothing. Yeah, right, right. What are you feeling? Again, I'm feeling a bunch of stuff, but I can't nuance it. And then, well, what does your gut say? And it's like, heck do I know, you know, but now there are times where I will have great clarity of mind and feelings and my gut. But again, that goes back to that whole idea of fog versus haze, you know, the haze is when I'm more grounded. I'm more self-aware. I'm doing my own inner work. I'm believing and trusting my true self that it has value and I'm bringing that to the forefront. And really stepping into it sometimes with kind of just, just trusting that it's the right thing to do. Not necessarily knowing what's gonna happen with it. Yep. Yeah, so I'll let you guys out of there. As a non-nine, what I'm hearing from both of you is something that, just to circle back to your center, you are a body type and you're bringing in the world through your body, which is a present place to be. And for all of us, eight's, nine's, and one's, we are resistant to the present. Control and autonomy issues are expressed. I think you said this very well, Beth. In very different ways, we are seeking control. We're seeking oversight. You had said earlier, you know what you don't wanna do. And that is a control phrase as I heard it. It was like, look, I don't wanna be moved or manipulated some way. The emotion underlying feelings gonna come out in terms of control issues is anger. So what you do with your anger and we pivoted to the stance of nines, which is commonly just gonna be pushing into that withdrawal space. And the way to establish, the way I'm gonna establish control is I'm gonna take a big step back. I'm gonna create a new line. I'm gonna hope that you don't step over this line this time. But the further you get pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed, that anger is not going away. You have the same energy going in you that eight's due. And as was said, it's the same Mentos going in the bottle. So what I hear, I assume that you both would say that you have control issues, yeah? - Oh yeah. - Heck yeah. And those are confronted at some point. It can be the spilling out of anger, but my assumption is that you have preferences that are different and they pivot you towards your stance. It's both the taking a step back, but it's also incorporating past tools to address things. It's like, I know it has happened in the past when I've gotten angry here and this has worked and I will try this. Or I know that I can go to this happy place where nobody bugs me and this is what works. So moving to our question four, which is how do I solve problems or when do I solve problems, fours, fives and nines are all using past tools to address their problems. Do you, am I wrong in saying that that's what's taking place in your engagement of the world? - Oh, a hundred percent. - How does that look like for you? - Yeah, I mean, everything is categorized as a rule based off of what I've learned from past experiences. So what I mean by that is even since I was a little girl, I have kept some sort of catalog in my brain of all of the rules I or one needs to follow to keep everyone happy or satisfied or whatever word you wanna put it. So if I were to hear my parents talk negative about another kid or, well, here I'll give you an example. So my mom, when we were at church, the pastor's wife and we were in the balcony and the pastor's wife, of course and her family were in the front row down below. And she always looked great and her kids look great. You know, they had whatever cute dresses are. I mean, this is like back in the '80s, you know? So we all looked so cute or they all looked cute and, you know, in my mom's mind, we're just like your typical family or whatever. And so she would put down the pastor's wife and like, 'cause, you know, she's got it all put together. So, you know, she's kind of in some sense trying to not make herself feel so less than. But in my mind, I'm hearing that as, oh, people actually will talk about you or put you down if you are too perfect and you make other people uncomfortable. So I need to make sure I don't make other people uncomfortable. I need to figure out how to be like everyone else so that everyone else feels good. Yeah, and so that's just like, but that, okay, the reason why that was an example is because fast forward, guess what, I became a pastor's wife. So then I'm like freaking out in the front row thinking about all the people behind me that are probably talking bad about me and how can I make everyone like me? It's your mom, your mom's bad. Right, yeah, no, but this is what happens for the nine is that we are listening to everyone's opinions, judgments, desires, wants. And it's like we had this catalog going in our mind of all of the ways that we need to live up to and make people happy in order to have this quote unquote, right relationship, this peaceful relationship, this happy, whatever you wanna call it. Yeah. And you can't ever win. But we think we can, we're gonna keep trying, but then we never are enough. And so nine's I know struggle a lot with the feeling of, I'm not enough because you can't make everyone happy to the level of what they want and need, but we are going to try and then we're gonna feel very discouraged and down basically at ourselves. We're not gonna look at the other person and go, well, if you would just, you know, take care of yourself and I'll take care of me. No. Everything would be better than, right? Yeah, right. TJ, I really wanna set you up with this, but like I have not thought of nines in rules. As a one, I'm all about rules. But the thing that's going through my mind is you're talking is, oh, here it is, there's justice, there's harmony, there's the way that things ought to be. And conceiving of the rules is something that are delivered from the past to bring order to my present experience. That's fantastic. The other thing that I'm hearing is judgment is, for me is the primary force coming at me that I resist from others. Like I am hyper-aware as a one of others judgment because it's about control and it's about there seeking to move me. And as you're speaking, I'm hearing something fairly similar going on there and the rules, justice, judgment, all of that ends up being in the same suit as it were. And it's really hard because there are things that other people will have judgments about and I will do my best to appease those judgments. I might merge, I might change my ways, I might become something and I can't really even sit here and tell you in this moment like, well, who and why and what? Because there might be another, it might be the same person, different situation or I'm not gonna move at all. Like I'm gonna have no cares that they have that judgment. Like I'm gonna be stubborn and I'm not gonna move and I am who I am. I mean, it's just like, we're kind of this really, I know we look kind of easy but we are very complex people and that's why I think because we are so complex that we just need to ignore ourselves and focus on others thinking that that will make life easy. - All right, friends, we're gonna pause here. Friends, you will know I never say anything like this but the rest of the Beth McCord interview is incredible. It is taking its spot in the pantheon to the best material I have ever been privileged to sit in on about a single type. So especially if you are a nine or a lover of a nine, the remaining 75 minutes is posting at aroundthecircle.org for members. The link is in the show notes or again, just go to aroundthecircle.org. Again, think of membership like joining a gym for your soul. We've given you a large amount to start with but if you are serious about gaining some knowledge about your inner life, we'll be putting all our best content there. It will be books, it will be videos, it will be extended interviews and rich, rich resources at aroundthecircle.org. Take a look, friends, happy new year. May all good things be yours. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
