Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the Mindful Muscle Podcasts. Once again, I'm Gio, and with my wonderful co-host, Jody Dolo. How are you doing today? I will take that as an insult. I agree. If you're new here, welcome. Gio and I are two friends that individually went on a weight loss journey, and we cluck and gained that weight loss, and we both fell in love with the process of bettering ourselves. And we are here to show you that it is due able. It is possible and it's absolutely worth it. And once again, Jody, I always love that you mentioned, that we have kept it off, right? Because no sense in losing the weight if you can't keep it off. Our next guest, though, is going to talk to us about that. She's a doctor, Dr. Charlton, is a dedicated general practitioner and founder of the Melbourne Low Carb Clinic, a specialist general practice clinic that offers personalized care and extended consultations to address the root causes of chronic illnesses. She's into lifestyle medicine, nutrition, and therapeutic carbohydrate restriction and functional breathing topics I definitely want to get into. Welcome to the show. Dr. Charlton, how are you today? Hello. Hi, Gio and Jody. Thanks for having me. I'm fantastic. It's actually six o'clock in the morning, so I actually just woke up very fresh in the winter morning. Yes, thank you very much. We didn't know you were in Melbourne, but thank you for taking the time to do this. You know, jumping right into what do you mean with functional breathing and how does it help overall health? Yeah, functional breathing is supposed to be dysfunctional breathing. There's actually a very big percentage of the population that doesn't breathe properly, and we call it dysfunctional breathing. People who doesn't breathe properly, they breathe too much, they hyperventilate, and it causes them anxiety. They're not breathing through the nose, they might be breathing through the mouth, and it actually causes a lot of medical problems, like anxiety, even asthma, even neurological conditions and reflux. So a lot of people think that breathing more is better, or they have an anxiety that causes to breathe more, and actually it's the vicious cycle. The more they breathe, the more anxious they get, and then they breathe even more. So training to breathe properly so we can breathe functionally and have functional breathing can help a lot of things, like reducing anxiety, help with gut health, because it helps them with parasympathetic nervous system, calms them down, and slows down the nervous system. So there's a lot of science to breathing, and I've started diving into this breathing, mainly inspired by oxygen advantage book, and the breath book by James Nestor. So your listeners can go and explore, and there's lots of things to learn about breathing, and everyone can improve. Let me ask you a question, because I've been working on my breathing, but perhaps it may not fall into the realm of functional breathing. When I do deadlifts, or when I do squatting, you have to make sure you breathe properly, because you don't want to disengage the core and compress your spine. Is that falling to the realm of this functional breathing, or we're looking at a different branch? Yeah, I think they're partly forced into it, but the main thing we talk about with functional breathing is trying to breathe through your nose all the time, even when you're exercising, when you're lifting and running, and slowing down with breathing, taking slower breaths, and even doing some breath holds that we can improve the biochemistry of our oxygen and carbon dioxide balance, and doing those things can help us regulate our breathing, slowing down, and even regulate our nervous system. Yeah, but yeah, learning to breathe well, you're deadlifting and doing weights. That is all part of that. Okay, you're talking about breathing through your nose and having that balance, which I can, in theory, I can understand that. But what about if you're sprinting, huffin and puffin, even fit athletes, right? When you're sprinting, it's hard just to breathe from your nose. Yeah, you're right. I actually do run, and I'm a runner. I've been running for about five or six or could be longer years. You've got to train majority of the time slower running, and when you run slow, it's good idea to train nose breathing. When you're doing sprints, and ideally you shouldn't be doing sprints running all the time, and most of the running coaches would suggest that you do 80% of your running training, only 20% of running fast. So majority of the training, if you train through your nose, that will actually help your exercise and endurance and help your breathing and even help your oxygen capacity because of the balancing of the carbon dioxide and oxygen balance, and that will help with running. So some sprints are really too hard. You can breathe through your mouth, but other running, the more nose breathing training that you do, the more you improve your exercise as well. Okay, so the million dollar question, what's the difference between nose breathing and mouth breathing? Like what happens physiologically in your body when you take the oxygen through your nose instead of your mouth? It's still getting in your lungs, correct? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, nose has got so many functions for our breathing that it's got about 30 functions, whereas the mouth is not really made for breathing, the mouth is made for eating. That I'm good with. So the nose makes the air warm, it humidifies the air, it makes the air a little bit warmer when it goes into your airway. If you breathe through your mouth, it's cold air, it irritates your airways, filtering functions, so it reduces your chance of bacteria and viruses going into your lungs. There's, if you breathe through your nose, you're more likely to breathe the air deep into your diaphragm, and you're more likely to breathe slowly. If you breathe through your mouth, quite often it goes into upper chest and not activating your diaphragm, and if you breathe through your mouth, quite often it's faster, it actually makes you more anxious because you're not using your diaphragm, you're not breathing in deep into your lungs, and it makes anxiety worse because you're breathing faster and not breathing properly into the diaphragm. If you're not activating your diaphragm, you're not activating your core muscles, and that you're not training your diaphragm, so that the diaphragm is actually a really big muscle, part of your core muscle. If you train that diaphragm, then you can help with other functional movements as well, like weightlifting, core strength, and reduces back pain. If you train that diaphragm. You got me, you have me squeezing my diaphragm as we speak. Yeah, that's it. So yeah, part of the training of breathing is you can feel the diaphragm, feel your ribcage, and make sure you're breathing deep into the ribcage into the diaphragm, and that's part of the training of functional breathing. So what are some of practical exercises people can do? One, to diagnose whether the majority of their breathing is through their nose or mouth, and if they notice it's not optimal, what are some practices they can do to improve that? Yeah, so the main thing is to be breath-aware, so pay attention to your breathing. Most people when I ask them, are you breathing through your nose or breathing through your mouth, they don't even know, and they're not paying attention to it. So first of all, during the day, you pay attention to it. When you're exercising, you pay attention to it, and even at night, you should train to breathe through your nose as well. Then a lot of people don't know that they're breathing through the nose or their mouth. If you've got dry mouth, or if you wake up feeling tired and feel like you could be snoring, that might tell you that you might be breathing through your mouth at night when you're sleeping. And if you really don't know, you can actually use some very simple mouth tape. It doesn't have to be very big and suffocating you. Then you can tape your mouth and see how you go, because if you tape your mouth, you're assisting your nose breathing even at night. Some people don't last the whole night, and when I started, I only lasted two hours or three hours, and then I got irritated. The more you train, the more you breathe through your nose, even at night. So being breath-aware is the first thing with breath training. There's also markers like the breath score, breath-holding score of counting the number of seconds you can last on a breath-holding. So you can measure breath-holding in seconds and see how your breathing is going. We call it the bolt score, so you can look it up on Google called breath-oxygen level test. So it's a breath-hold on exhalation, and the first sensation of you feel like you need to take the next breath is when the score finish. So it's not holding your breath as long as you can, it's the first sensation that you feel like you need to take a breath. We can measure our bolt score and we can see how we are, and we can improve ourselves and see how we progress over breath training. Then you can do some breath-holding exercises if you want to go the next level. Let's say you can just hold for three or four seconds, then that might just help, or you can hold as long as you can, or you can go for some walks, and you can do, I count on my steps, and I can hold for 20 steps, and then I release, and I walk for 20 steps again, and then I hold for 20 steps again, and I repeat it six times on my walk, and that might just take two or three minutes as part of the walk. That might just increase your breath-holding capacity as part of a training, and again that helps your body tolerate more carbon dioxide, and the carbon dioxide, if you teach your body to have getting used to higher carbon dioxide, then you don't need to breathe as much, and you can slow down your breath and train your body to be slower and calmer, and reduce anxiety, improve vagal tone, parasympathetic nervous system. There's a lot of benefits with training breathing, and it's free. At least they're not charging for air yet. That's right. I am somebody that struggles with anxiety. I've heard a little bit that there are breathing techniques when you're having an anxiety attack. Could you elaborate or expand on that possibly? Yeah, absolutely. When you have an anxiety attack, you can try and pay attention to your breathing first, but sometimes just slowing down and doing a thing called physiological sigh that can help you calm down. So what the physiological sigh is, you take your breath, and then take an extra breath a little bit more, and then slowly breathe out, and do this a few times. So we try again, we take a breath, and a little bit more, and then slow down, and breathing out. And you don't have to hold for long if you've got anxiety and you can't do a very long breath hold. Even two or three seconds and slowly breathing out, that can just bring your awareness back to your breathing. So that's a physiological sigh that you can look up, and people like Huberman have a video on YouTube that can show you how to do this. And sometimes I do this as a just as a practice at my lunchtime just to slow down and be more breath aware. You can also practice box breathing, and that might help you to practice some breath holds and make your mind think about breathing rather than think about something that you're anxious about. So box breathing is you can do however long you want. If you're a beginner, you can do three breaths, sorry, three seconds, if you're a little bit advanced, you can do four or five. So you take three seconds breath in, hold for three seconds, three seconds breath out, and then hold for three seconds. It's a bit like a box, and then if you can get better, you can do four seconds breath in, hold for four seconds, and then four seconds breath out, and then hold for four seconds. It's like a box, and if you are struggling with a little bit of anxiety, it doesn't matter, just take a break, don't have to force yourself to hold. It's practicing self-compassion, and there's no fixed rules to it if you get super anxious, just take it easy and take a breath, and it might just help you come down and think about breathing rather than think about whatever you're anxious about. Great, thank you. We've spent some time here talking about functional breathing because I was curious about it, but you speak about being a lifestyle physician or into lifestyle medicine. How do you define that? Because people come at it from different angles. Yeah, I'm a normal doctor, and I've been a normal doctor for 20 years, and I'm used to prescribing medicine for certain ailments, high blood pressure, hypertension, then I'll be giving them a pill to reduce the blood pressure, but I've realized this is not really treating the root cause, and I'm just treating symptoms, so I've done a lot more learning on these lifestyle conditions, and I want to talk about lifestyle. I want to talk about prescribing lifestyle to my patients to improve their lifestyle rather than just give them a pill to say reduce their blood pressure, so there's a lot of lifestyle conditions that contributes to a lot of our modern illnesses like obesity, diabetes, anxiety, depression, even Alzheimer's disease, cancer, all these conditions, there's a common cause that it could be the modern lifestyle, that the food that we eat, the stress that we're having, that we're not sleeping as well, we're getting more sedentary and we're not exercising, we're not getting as much sunlight that we're having that we're supposed to have. That's why I like to talk about all these lifestyle pillars to my patients, and start prescribing lifestyle as well as using medicine, I don't not use medicine, because sometimes it's got its place and trained in as a doctor, so I've been prescribing medicines for many years, but I think both has its place, so medicine and lifestyle, and then hopefully they can improve their health as well as their lifestyle and treat the root course of the illnesses. You know, my wife, as I mentioned to you, off air is a medical doctor as well, and we try to treat people lifestyle, what would you say though is the biggest pushback that you get, because we know people are stubborn, they just want the pill and keep it moving. Exactly, absolutely, people want the pill, people want quick fixes, so that could be the pushback, and sometimes I talk about the diet, and they're not ready for change, they just want to keep eating what they have doing, and which hasn't done them service, maybe they're just eating the modern diet, and it's made them put on weight and diabetes, yeah, they're not ready for change, but the more I plant the seed, the more I show them that it hasn't done you service, it's made you sick, then hopefully they will come across and ready to change, it's hard, it's very hard. I am actually somebody that started my journey because I was diagnosed with hypertension, and yes, I was prescribed a pill, but to me that just seemed like it was an introduction to like a life of needing more and more pills, or more medical issues, so that's actually what caused me to change my lifestyle, and I have been off blood pressure medicine for years because I just, pills do have their place, but I did not want to have to rely on it, and I didn't want that list of prescriptions to grow year after year by continuing the lifestyle that I was leaving, I was pounds heavier than I am now, I was not exercising, bad asthma, anxiety, I still have anxiety, I still have asthma, but it's significantly better than what it was. That's amazing, that's great, Jody, well done, I think that's great, you're open up to it, there's a lot of people that are resistant and they just don't want to learn, and the modern society doesn't help them because there's so much advertising on processed foods and junk foods, takeaways, and it's convenient, and even if you go out to a restaurant, it's not very conducive of healthy eating, so it's hard to go against the grain. Yeah, Jody, I've never said this to you before, but it hit me as you said it this time, and I've heard you say it before, that's an amazing insight that you realized, if I start with one pill, they're just going to put me on more, and so that's very insightful because as the doctor knows, many people are happy with the pills, just fix me, cover the symptoms, and away we go, so very insightful. The second thing though is okay, how do you begin to help people? Let's say somebody's open to lifestyle change, where do you begin with them? Hey, I talk about the lifestyle pillars that I mentioned before, I talk about nutrition, whether they're eating good and ask them a food diary, if they're eating good healthy proteins and healthy fats and veggies, rather than too much sugar and processed food, so we try and reduce the sugar and processed foods as much as we can, and I talk about if they're exercising, so the more active they are, that helps as well, and strength training is much better than cardio, but if you do can do both, then that's even better, and then they ask them if they're sleeping well, or they're stressed, sometimes the moms are just running around doing pickups and drop offs, and I am doing that too, but then the more stress reducing activities that you do, the more it helps to counteract or the stress inducing activities, or the running around that you do, so I go through all the lifestyle things that they can help to improve their health, it takes a bit of time to talk about it, and yeah, sometimes they say, oh I'm doing all this already, but sometimes there's just a small little thing that they can change, and that can help them with just a little bit of time and small steps forward, help them to improve their health that way. Okay, with the time remaining here, you talk about that you have a low carb clinic, now that's a touchy subject for Jody and I, so what do you mean by that? Because we don't think carbs are bad, they just have to be good carbs, so we want to hear your approach. Yeah, most of the patients that come in, they are metabolically not healthy, so if they're not healthy, means their body isn't working properly, the mitochondria function isn't optimal, so they're burning the field not quite right, quite often they have insulin resistance, so insulin is a hormone that the body makes to bring the glucose away, and in fact 80% of the population in America, I think Australia is not that far behind, is metabolically not healthy with high insulin, so the more carbohydrates that we reduce, the more we regulate this, so changing from white carbs to slow carbs helps as well, eating good carbs is much better than eating the sugar and the junk food, but if we can really reduce our carbohydrates to less than 50 gram a day or even less than 20 gram a day, if we can reduce it to less than 20 gram a day, that becomes a ketogenic diet, and we can switch our body field system to burn ketones, which means we're burning fat, that can improve our fat burning capacity and quite often people have too much fat and they want to burn their fat, so reducing all the carbs as much as we can, less to less than 20 gram a day, that can improve their fat burning capacity and make them burning ketones instead, and that can really help them lose weight much faster than being too much carbs even if it's good carbs. So is that what you mean though by therapeutic carbohydrate restriction, because eating that low carbs, is that really long-term sustainable, like the lifestyle, long-term? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's actually lots of studies that we are good, we are okay to not much carbs, and our body can burn on ketones and fat, the epileptic population has done 100 years of ketogenic diet in treatment of epilepsy, and the body can burn on ketones, they can we can burn on fat, our brain actually can burn on ketones, it's actually much better feel than using glucose, and actually it helps with brain health. There's psychiatrists that can have done, are actually doing studies and treating people with schizophrenia, anxiety, depression, bipolar disorders, with therapeutic carbohydrate restriction, making these people burn on ketones, and those studies have shown that it helps with those mental health conditions, because the brain is burning on ketones rather than glucose. Yeah, physiologically it is sustainable, psychologically it depends on what you think and your society. So if you think you can sustain, then you can train your mind to sustain on eating low carb or even ketogenic, it's what you perceive as sustainable. I've actually got lots of friends and followers and patients that keep doing low carb keto and some of them are even carnivore for many years, and they have no problems, they're fantastic health, they have improved their mental health, improve their conditions, and they haven't put on weight, and I have been low carb and sometimes keto for maybe four or five years. So yeah, I think it's sustainable, and I'll hunt a gatherers when we were hunted gatherers many hundreds of thousands years ago, mostly animals, so we were hunting animals, and there are times that we don't get food for many days at a time. So we don't eat for many days, because we can't get the animals in the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, and those people will be burning ketones. So actually, our body is designed to burn on ketones and fat, and not constantly eating four or five times a day like we're doing now. There's too much food available in the modern society that we're snacking all the time, and we're having breakfast, and the morning tea, and lunch, and afternoon tea, and midnight snacks. Our body is not designed to eat all the time. Yeah, I agree with that. I belong to a community that is one of the longest lived communities in the world, and we advocate two to three times a day not eating in between meals and things like that. Obviously, it seems like you're promoting low carb and you're promoting keto. How do you guys fiber? What do we do with the fiber? Yeah, that's a really common question. I think the fiber is essential if you're eating carbs. It's good to help if you're eating carbs. So those people who eat carbs with bread, potato, eating fiber will help their mouths, and the studies that are showing the fiber is beneficial is, again, comparing those eating fiber with the standard diet and those eating just the standard diet without much fiber. So those people are eating all the bread, potato, pasta. Whereas there's no studies that shows that that is performed with people that are eating low carb and keto, and these people not eating much fiber actually has no problem, and I do have vegetables and I have a little bit of vegetables. I have no problem with my bowel action, and those people who are carnival, they also have no problem with their bowels because they're actually eating lots of protein and healthy fat and they don't have any junk food. The healthy fat actually helps us with our bowel motions and sometimes just adding some more healthy fat in terms of olive oil or fed around the meat. That helps out our actions as well. I think fiber is a bit of a myth that we are needing it, and it's essential. Depends on the overall diet is my thinking, and it hasn't been fine. Yeah, let me keep asking because I'm curious. There's a lot of studies though that talk about the importance of fiber and that the more fiber you get, the longer longevity, as a matter of fact, that just was watching a video from another PhD talking about the importance of fiber. Obviously, you're taking a different approach from it. What would you say to those people? Again, if you're eating a standard diet, then I think fiber will be beneficial because that will reduce your absorption of all the sugars and the carbs that you're eating, but it's not absolutely essential in the whole scheme of things because the fiber is the food that you're not absorbing. That's why you're pooping it out. They're not essential nutrients, but it'll help if you're eating the standard diet, it'll help you reduce the absorption of sugar and carbs. Jodi, you want to jump in here? Obviously, I'm not a doctor, but when I was getting my nutrition certification, she seems like fiber is actually not pushed enough, at least in America. I don't think a lot of people understand it reduces your chances of diabetes, type 2 diabetes, certain types of cancer. If BCD, cardiovascular disease, I feel like it's not pushed enough, the importance of fiber. As somebody that used to have a really bad relationship with food, damming a whole macronutrient category just seems, depending on the person, if they don't have a healthy relationship with food, could lead to more issues. I don't know anybody that has done low carb and kept with it. It's one of those, "Yo, trends, I see a lot. Hey, I had a cheat meal or, oh, I went off the rails during the holidays because I got access to something." Yeah, that's a good question. How do you see adherence to the low carb diet amongst the majority? There's certainly people that are yo-diting because, again, the society doesn't help them because the restaurants are hard and going on holidays hard. So there are lots of people that are yo-sometimes on, sometimes off, but I do have a lot of friends that have sustained it and most of the time they keep going with the low carb keto and they have no problems because they know what is good for them and if they eat off-track, if they eat the sugars, they actually don't feel well. They might feel bloated, it affects their brain health, they might get brain fog, they don't sleep well, and they don't function as well properly. And certainly these people might be used to burning their brain using the brain as using fuel, the ketone as a fuel. If they're used to doing that, they function much better on a low carb ketogenic diet. But yeah, there are people that yo-yos, there are people that can sustain, there's lots of people that can sustain. What about when it comes to fruit then? Because I love me a good mango and I'm pretty sure Australia must have some great fruit that we don't have here in America. We have mango in a very limited season in the summer and I love it too, but I try and limit it. I have one mango shared between my two teenage boys so I just have a little bit a third of a mango at a time. So that's how I manage having fruit and with my patients I usually say, have a little bit of fruit and just have half a cup of fruit a day. And that's enough, berries is better than other fruit. If you're going to have a little bit of mango then maybe you don't have other fruit for the rest of the day. And just have a few and you can taste the sweetness, but some people don't have it and they're fine. So what's a typical daily meal for someone on a low-carb ketogenic diet? Yeah, I tell my patients to prioritize their protein first. So eat their meat, eggs, chicken, fish and they can add the veggies, use above-ground veggies rather than the below-ground veggies like potato, pumpkin, sweet potatoes. So prioritize the veggies that are above-ground, broccoli, cauliflower, asparagus, tomato, mushroom. So they can eat all the veggies with the protein and then they can add some healthy fat which will make the food tasty like cheese, butter, avocado, olive oil, nuts and seeds. And add plenty of salt and flavoring, they can have herbs, salt and pepper, chili, spices that will make the food flavorful. And really limit their carbs so just a little bit of berries that they're going to have fruit. If they want a little bit of root vegetables they can have a little bit of sweet potatoes or potatoes and they eat when they're hungry. Quite often it's two or three meals a day and not snacks in between or even one meal a day some days and that can help them to do intermittent fasting and reduce their insulin and that's easy. So most of the time it could be eggs for breakfast like I would have two or three eggs if I'm going to have breakfast, sometimes added mushroom or tomato, avocado and lunch would be a meat and veggie. Quite often it's a leftover meal from the night before and the dinner is the meat and veggies which could be beef, pork, chicken, fish and then I would add some broccoli, cauliflower and carrots and that's it. That's my two or three meals a day and it's all real food, there's nothing processed and it's easy. I don't need to buy biscuits and cakes and snacks I don't stock them in my cupboards I'm not tempted with all the junk food and snacks and if you fill yourself up with good protein then you don't get hungry. The thing is if you train your body to burn fat the hunger quite often goes and you're not thinking about food all the time you don't need to snack all the time so people feel amazing and they don't crave or the junk food. Okay All right let's switch it up here to a in America most gym goers are into lifting weights either crossfit or lifting weight and then there is women unfortunately are taught to cardio right cardio is king. What's the typical breakdown in Australia? I think we're pretty much the same. Yeah the women find cardio much easier and I did get actually I dig into running first before I started strength training but I'm trying to advocate that strength training is much more important as well in building muscles so if we don't strength train and we just do cardio then our muscles go wasting and that when we get older we can lose our muscles and we don't eat enough protein the muscles will go less and you get weak and you can't get up off a chair can't get up off the floor so I promote strength training weightlifting and just even doing some squats and push-ups even if it's 10-15 minutes twice a week that can help you build muscles but cardio is certainly fantastic and going for walks and going for some running that that will be ideal. Yeah you gotta be careful where you walk in Australia though at least that's what we hear. Yeah I know that's you have so many big animals and scary stuff at least that's the notion here in America. Actually I have a bush right behind my house and I have kangaroos in that push they run away when yeah they run away when I walk around them so they're not scary but they just jump away. Do you find what's the biggest what's the word I'm looking for? Pushback do you get when you tell women that resistance training is important? Yeah they worry about putting on muscles and they don't want to bulk up. If it wasn't only that easy. Yeah that's it. I said no you're not going to bulk up you need testosterone you need to be a man to bulk up you we just want stronger muscles so when you get old you can keep having more muscles and be stronger so when you lift your shopping you can have strength and you can get up off a chair so yeah they don't understand that they won't bulk up. Yeah we find that here we hear in our fitness community sometimes women talking about I don't want to lift heavy because I don't want to get too big if it was that easy. I just want to get toned you're not a printer that's a hard work. What are the men's biggest concerns when they're trying to make lifestyle changes? The men do it much better the men if they change their diet and if they start lifting weights they achieve their goals much faster but the concerns could be that they're busy that they're running around because they have work and they're not ready for change because they like to stick to their lifestyle that they've been taught to and they're skeptical some of them don't want to learn new things so yeah those are the things what the alcohol is quite big in Australia they might not be ready to let go of the alcohol and certainly it is an addiction so they have to face their problems with their mind. It's funny you mention alcohol because I remember when years ago when I learned that I don't drink at all but I remember years ago when I found out that alcohol has seven calories per carb and I'm like man I'm not wasting my calories on something to drink I don't even like drinking juice I mainly drink water because I like to eat I want to eat my calories and obviously that's for me the best way to go. In the six minutes we have left how do people contact you if they're in Melbourne, Australia what's the best way to reach out to you if they wanted to come to your clinic? Yeah so my clinic is Melbourne Low Carb Clinic and if you put it on Google they can find me that way the website is www.mlcclinic.com.au. I'm also quite active on social media my channel is Dr. Charlton Low Carb GP on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and LinkedIn and they can message me and they can look at listen to my podcast as well so my podcast is called prescribing lifestyle which I have solo episodes as well as interviewing guests to talk about different aspects of lifestyle nutrition and they can follow me anywhere they want. Okay Dr. Charlton respecting your time thank you very much for being on the Mindful Muscle podcast. Jody any last questions for the doctor? No thank you so much I especially the breathing portion like I feel like I have a lot that could help me later on so I really appreciate you coming on and talking to us today. Yeah I encourage you to look up oxygen advantage and boutique her breathing that I'm not affiliated with them so they're on YouTube and websites and you can watch some YouTube videos and you can learn that way. Thank you for having BGO and Jody. No thank you thank you. Until next time on the Mindful Muscle podcast thank you for listening everyone take care and be blessed.
