[MUSIC PLAYING] Hi there, Mama, and welcome to the Hope Mommies podcast. Here at Hope Mommies, our goal is to bring the hope of Jesus Christ to bereaved mothers and families who have experienced the heartbreaking loss of a baby. In each episode, we'll navigate the complexities of grief and discover the transformative power of remaining anchored to the hope of Jesus Christ. In him, we find an unshakable hope that comforts, encourages, and helps us survive pregnancy and infant loss. I'm your host, Kristen Hernandez, and I am so honored you're here. [MUSIC PLAYING] If even a spare finds a home, I know I'm out alone. If even I live, he's fine than drugs. I know my soul can rest with blessed love. Who dwell within your health? Blessed are those who dwell within your health. Welcome to episode 32 of the Hope Mommies podcast. Today, I am joined by my friends Alice in Brown and Kelsey Cole of Four Known Ministries. So hi, ladies. Thanks so much for coming on today. Oh, thank you. Thanks for having us. It's so fun to be together. We were talking before, and we kind of just had to get the ball rolling because I could have talked to both of you for another hour before we started recording. But it's always so fun to have our friends that were doing ministry alongside on and to connect with other hope moms, such an encouragement. So I know I personally have been really encouraged by the two of you, and I am just praying that our listeners are encouraged as well, and I'm confident they will be. So before we go any further, will the two of you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, and what you spend your days doing? Good question. I'm Alice in, and I am Hope Mommie Takora. I also have two beautiful girls here on Earth, Millie and Maddie, and my wonderful hippie husband, John up. And I would say when I'm not working in rising up a ministry with Kelsey, I love being outside of the mountains. We live in Colorado Springs, so the mountains are just a stone's throw from us. So any time that we get to be outside in that nature is just life-giving to me. It's definitely the way that we find that we can just relax at the end of the day. Definitely something that our daughters are not into yet. They're nine and five, and so they definitely are not all about the hiking. But we bring lots of treats to entice them along the way. So it works out. That is helpful. Where do you guys like to go hiking? I know in Colorado Springs, you probably have so many options. There's so many good ones. Yes, so I would say most of the time we're out in Cheyenne Canyon, which is where the bulk of, I think, those hikes are. With our girls, we'll do a lot in Garden of the Gods area because they're a lot easier for them. One time, my husband and I hiked up Pikes Peak, and I will never do that again. So. And if you're feeling really, what do I dare say, like dumb shin and motivation? You can climb the Manitou Springs incline, which is 2,786 stairs up. Oh, it's just stairs. It's just stairs. Like, yeah, I've done it two or three times. And I think every time I start crying, like right at the beginning, it's just standing there. You're just looking straight up. You're like, what have I done? What have I done? That's a great speaking illustration. It's just looking at what's ahead of you and just breaking down crying. How far there is to go. In the top, you can look down at all the stairs that you climbed. What a victory that is. Yeah, what a victory. Yeah. I love it. And I am Kelsey Cole. I am Hope Monet to Peanut, Witson, Lennox, and two other sweet babies in heaven. And earthly mom to Kennedy, who is almost 12, which takes up a lot of time. I am a wife to Ryan of almost 15 years. We're going to celebrate this year, which is just a miracle in and of itself. And in our spare time, when we're like Allison said, not doing ministry, you could usually find me in the kitchen. I love bake. I love to cook anything sourdough. I jokingly say I'm in my sourdough era, but I think many of us millennial women are post COVID. Just going to throw that out there. But yeah, we have a good time in Colorado Springs where both Allison and I and our families live and it's a beautiful day today, so we're excited to share our stories with you, Kristin, and all of your listeners of Hope Monet. So thanks for having us. It's such a joy to have you. I did not get on the sourdough wagon. I wish I did. I actually just bought some sourdough. So I pay people to make the sourdough for me. I am one of the few millennial women who did not get that memo. What do you like to bake the most? Would sourdough be your number one thing? Oh gosh, that's a really good question. I love to blend prep you for that question at all. No, that's okay. Sorry. Great question. I love to bless people with my baking. So usually in years past, we've baked like dozens of cinnamon rolls and just have taken them to different families on New Year's Day. So I don't know. I don't know what it's going to be this sure, but hopefully it'll be something good. I love cinnamon rolls. But I also, when I bake things, I like to eat them. So I have to pace myself, Kristin. Which is why you bless other people with them too, 'cause that helps. And then y'all can go on a hike together and it's just like the best partnership, it's such a good friendship. Yeah, well, I wish I lived closer, 'cause I would love to enjoy one of your cinnamon rolls and then go on a hike with Allison. Both of those would make my day. Well, I'm so glad to have the both of you here. I would love for us to talk about your stories as hope moms. So whoever wants to go first, could you tell us about your hope babies? And I also want to hear a little bit about four known ministries and how that came, because I'm sure there's a link. It's all connected. So my husband and I found ourselves pregnant with our second daughter, Cora, back in 2017. We were excited, we were elated. My pregnancy with Millie was just very textbook. I didn't have any issues, there weren't really any concerns. And so walking into my second pregnancy, I mean, I was not even aware that there was anything outside of healthy pregnancy. So nothing was on my radar. I truly just beat popped my way through it and was so excited to get to the end of that pregnancy to have another daughter. And so I'd note not a very good patient pregnant person, because I like to run at a certain pace and I like to keep going and when you're pregnant, you can't do that. So very eager to see our daughter two days before I was scheduled to be induced. I noticed that I wasn't feeling movement, which again, I'm not concerned about because I'm two days away from delivering this baby. I'm all baby, there is no room left in the inn. So no wonder she's not moving. Like she's cramped, I'm cramped, let's do this. I reached out to my sister-in-law who was a labor and delivery nurse at the time and just, hey, this is what's going on. What are your suggestions? She gave me like drink the ice water, lay on your side. Fairly she'll start moving, we're not concerned. I just had my last appointment with my OBGYN and everything was great. None of those tricks are working. So again, not being concerned, I message my doctor who says, "Just stop over at the hospital. I'm certain everything is fine." But they have all the equipment needed if something is going wrong. And so I let my husband know I'm gonna take our step. I'm gonna go to the hospital to see what's going on. I will be in touch as soon as I find something out. And so I could go in there and I was probably the happiest, most naive woman of walking to labor and delivery or triage, I guess, because I was like, "Hey, I'm not feeling my baby move. Can you check her?" Like oblivious to the fact that there is something wrong here. I had a sweet, sweet nurse try to find the heartbeat and she couldn't find it. And so she called somebody else into luck and that person was also struggling. And so we've checked probably three or four times at this point before the nurse who was in charge for the day, put her hands on my shoulders and said, "I'm so sorry, but she's gone." And it was at that moment that everything hit me of, I didn't even know that this was a possibility at this stage in your pregnancy. I thought it was smooth sailing. I've gotten through the first trimester, which is the tricky one. And it's supposed to just be easy at this point. And so as we all know, your world just crumbles in that moment and you're in shock. And I just remember the nurse sitting on the side of my bed with her hand on my shoulder, calling my husband because I was there on and saying, "You need to get here now and you need to drive carefully." And it's the worst moment of your life. And I feel like that doesn't even do it justice. It's like you are-- - There's no words for that. - There's no words for it. And it's something that you would never wish on anyone. You're worst enemy. I don't ever want anyone to experience that. Because not only am I all of a sudden feeling like a child by self facing very adult things like the loss of my child, it's like, where, what am I supposed to do? Where do I go from here? And so once my husband arrived, we did one last scan just to see if we could find anything and clearly could not. And so I was immediately induced and we went through the process of calling all of our family, having to have those conversations with everyone and eventually delivering Cora later that evening. And I remember saying to myself, I'm not doing this. Like, I'm not gonna deliver her. You will do a C-section. I will not do this. And it's in those moments where the mountain is in front of you and you're just looking straight up at it. I do not know how I'm gonna get up that thing while I'm over it to the other side. And I was so blessed to have such good doctors and nurses that walked alongside me through that. My doctor came in on her night off to deliver Cora and that in and of itself brought so much peace in a moment that was so unstable for the both of us. So then we're faced with Millie who's two at the time and having to explain to her, your sister is physically here, but she's not actually here. And what does this concept of heaven look like when now all of a sudden it's so much more real to me because a piece of me is there now. And so it was a really hard time, you know, trying to as an adult understand what's just happened and then break it down for a two year old and explain to a two year old, that is good and heaven is not bad. I know this all feels bad right now, but someday we're gonna see the blessing in this that maybe we can't see right now. It's hard for us in those moments to grasp heaven and it's hard for us in those moments to grasp God's goodness. And we'll get to all of this in a bit, but it's hard for us to grasp this and then to be in the seemingly impossible position of explaining that to a child. Yeah, that's hard. It really was, but in hindsight, we had such amazing friends and family and pastors surrounding us in that moment and really helping to equip us to have that conversation and to walk through the next several weeks. You know, once you go home and once the funeral's over and how does your life look different afterwards and how do you navigate that? We were certainly blessed a lot in that season. So that was on January 24th of 2018. And Allison and I, back then, we were co-workers and we still are, technically, and best friends and we were expecting together. Allison with their expected daughter, Cora, and Ryan and I with our expected son, Witsyn. And that's a day that I will never forget. I was at work knowing that Allison was going in to get checked on because she wasn't feeling that movement. And it wasn't until our boss frantically walked through the hallway saying, I need everyone in the boardroom now that it occurred to me what was happening. And I remember walking through this hallway on their way to the boardroom and just wanting to collapse myself. It was in that moment that I knew what my best friend was experiencing and what she was walking through because, unfortunately, I had been there myself. And at that time, I was three days away from our scheduled C-section when I went in for my very last appointment, just a few days short of 38 weeks. And almost the exact same thing happened. Ultrasound tech after tech came in to double check and it wasn't until my ob kind of frantically walked in with a panic in his step and a tear in his eye that I knew something had gone drastically wrong. We found out that Witsyn no longer had a heartbeat, that he had passed away in the womb. And we rescheduled my C-section to the very next morning. So that evening, we had to go home and kind of relay the information and the news to all of our family. But when I got home at Kristin, we had probably 30 people in our living room just praying and interceding and begging God for a miracle. I mean, you know those prayers that you prayed that you can never remember any words that were spoken out loud and because that's truly when Holy Spirit takes over and intercedes for us. But they were just such prayers of desperation. I mean, I remember even in that ultrasound room just screaming, praying out loud, like God, breathe your breath into his lungs. You know, just pleading with God. So we went back the very next morning. And I remember my husband and I were driving down I-25 in our car and he had his hand on mine. And he just said, no matter what today looks like, no matter what happens, I know that I'm here for you and I love you and we're gonna do this together. We're gonna get through this together. And it was such a moment of reassurance that I needed from my partner, you know, my life partner that no matter what this season ahead of us looks like, that I'm gonna have someone to do it with and that he's going anywhere. I'm very thankful for my husband for many reasons, but that is definitely a highlight for sure. And so that next morning, I delivered a perfect looking, very chubby, cheeked eight-pound baby boy with strawberry blonde curly hair. And we were loved with a lot of question because he truly was perfect looking. And it wasn't until about a month after that we delivered what's in that my OB called me and said that they had found something in my amniotic fluid testing. I did not have an amniocentesis done earlier in the pregnancy, it was because we knew that if the baby did have a chromosomal defect in any way that it would still choose to love and care for our child. And so it was then that we found out that he did have a very rare chromosome mutation called Tricestilmy12, which is very rare. The most common are 18, 21. But I remember when I met with a geneticist, she said if and when you wanted to try again, then there would be a less than 1% chance of this happening again because of how rare it is. So to say it was a fluke seems a little insensitive, but it truly was. And so it was in that season of 2018 that Allison and I grieved together. I mean, literally if our couches could tell stories, oh my gosh, you would probably buy us new couches because our pillows were just tear so, tear stained. But the gift that we had, that we realized now in each other, like being able to do that, the stillness of both of our children, what within two weeks of one another, like doing that with a best friend is very rare. But what a gift that was to not only us but our families, one, to kind of remind us that we're not going insane, we're not going crazy and how we're feeling is okay because it can vary so vastly. And what a gift that was, it was one day it worked where Allison and I both were just having a really rough morning and we told our boss, you know, we probably don't have a lot left to give today because of how bad it was. And granted, it was like 10 in the morning. So at full, it was very low we did good, right? But we needed to work, we did good. And she said, you know, take the day and it was then that Allison and I went and had lunch together. It was kind of an odd Mexican brunch that is just, I mean, those two words should rarely be put as the same sentence. - But if they work, I live in Southern California and I know Mexican brunch is a thing. - It is big, but in Colorado, it's not that shouldn't. - But it was on that brunch that we discovered that God had given us the exact same dream separately. And it looked like us talking to women and men who had been through that similar loss for claiming God's goodness, even when what these people were going through was hell. And when we shared that with one another, one of our first thoughts was, oh my gosh, we're gonna have to do something with this. Like what do we do with this information, you know? And we just prayed about it and we talked a lot about it and we felt like God was saying, no, this is the hope that I want you to be sharing with others. The same hope that lives inside of the both of you needs to be shared with other brief parents. - One of the phrases or the concepts that we had to cling to during that season was, God, you have to be at work in this somehow. I can't believe that this is just a coincidence. I can't believe that you're not gonna do something with this, and I need you to show us what that is. And so when we shared that vision, the weight of the calling was palpable. And it was a lot in that moment. But we really, like Kelsey said, we prayed a lot about that because we had a lot of people saying, I don't think you're ready. I don't know that you can do this. Once you start, how are you gonna handle other people's stories and their losses? And we continue to just say, if God has called us to this, He is going to equip us. Not that it's gonna be easy by any stretch of the imagination, but He is going to show us a new side of Himself in our story and in this journey. And so in October of 2018, that very same year that we lost the kids, we started for known. And it started off as social media support and encouragement for people. What we needed was I need to see a post that reminds me that God is with me and that He's in it. And then I'm gonna make it through this. And so that's exactly where we started. We quickly branched into hosting weekend retreats for women and to be able to bring 20, 30 women into the same room to hear their stories and to see support and community happen over a weekend is amazing, to see God's hand work in so many people at the same time to recognize, I'm not alone in this. And I don't need to walk by myself in this because there are so many people out there that have experienced it and that wanna support me and I wanna support them. Wow. We've branched into digital support groups every month for women all across the country. We have coaching opportunities where we get to walk one-on-one with people through their specific journey and really help guide them through. What are some of the next steps that we can take and how do we navigate different scenarios? We also have digital courses that we do where we're able to go in and train hospital staff on the best way that you can handle a mom who's laying in that bed who's just lost a child because that's where we can speak from. I can give you information all day long on what is helpful and what is not helpful. The newest things that we do, Kristen, we have a wonderful and beautiful texting community where if any parent is going through either an active miscarriage at home or perhaps they are finding themselves in the hospital or even the loss of an infant baby, they can actually text directly to a 719 number that goes directly to our teen's phones where we're able to offer almost like first respond and height reports and encouragement, letting them know that they're not alone, that this is a mountain ahead of them but it's not one that they're gonna have to climb alone and it truly is where even discipleship happens via text message. It's beautiful because there's that layer of anonymity that is there where people can share as much or as little as they want but yet they can feel seen in that moment and truly we're able to kind of start a relationship with parents that they go through loss. Ministries like For Known and Hope Mommies, one of the things that makes it so special is that community aspect of just feeling less alone and just hearing your stories, I'm just blown away and I recognize the grief and the heaviness and the brokenness in the situation and so I definitely don't wanna just gloss over that but it is so rare and beautiful and again, not in a way that undoes the hard parts and undoes the grief but just so beautiful that you two were best friends before this happened. How rare is that like there is a special bond that immediately happens when you meet someone like that, other moms that are grieving but how rare to have someone who you're already in deep friendship with to go through it two weeks apart from each other and on one hand, I'm like, that's horrible. Like that is so awful that both of you had to walk through that and also what a really unique opportunity. I hope that all makes sense because I know that like no one would ever wish that on anyone like you both said, but like how beautiful that God orchestrated that that when he brought the two of you into each other's lives as friends, like he already knew your baby's names. He already knew them and he lined up this friendship with the two of you and God knows what we need and even gives like friendship with other people like he knows what we need and he brings others into our lives since the way that he's used the two of you together and in each other's lives and now in the lives of other women is just so encouraging to hear. So thank you guys for what you do and for sharing your stories. - Thank you. - Yeah. - One thing that you brought up that I wanna touch on is that two week window and what that like. - I'm really interested in that of what was that two weeks like because a lot of us have probably had that friend where we were pregnant at the same time or a sister we were pregnant at the same time and I know that there are so many layers when one loses a baby and the other is still pregnant and so many feelings. So as best friends, I would love to hear what that two week window looked like. - There were a lot of questions for both of us individually. What that looked like was, can we still be friends? Can I still work where we work? Do I need to quit my job? Is it gonna be too painful for Allison to see me breastfeeding at work? Like what does the future of our friendship look like? That was horrible. What did you, for me it was how am I going to be excited for her when Witson arrives but Cora's not here. Can I do that? Because I want to do that but will I be able to do that? And it was dark. Like there are a lot of dark days not just in those two weeks but just in the whole grieving process. And so I don't want people to think that just because we had each other it was so much easier. I mean, yes, it was a huge blessing but we had to fight to get through that grief. It's really cool because when you look back on it now you can see the seeds that God started planting years ago when we were going through our loss of what it looks like to fight for each other, to fight for hope, to fight for truth. And how do you do that together as best friends but also individually for each other? And I mean, so many layers to it. God and His mercy and His grace were huge. In those two weeks I will never forget when Kelsey came over to my house and was very much still pregnant and I am very much still raw and look like I've been hit by a bus because I haven't shared it three days. So being able to sit in that place and just have this hard posture of God I want to celebrate with her but I don't know how to do that and I don't have the strength to do that and I need you to be that for me was hard. But I think the harder part was the day that I got the phone call that she lost Witson because I will never forget that moment and thinking, God, what is going on? What are you allowing to happen here? What, like, what did we do to deserve this? You know, all of the thoughts just hit you and to just like she understood when I was losing Hora now I'm understanding while she's losing Witson and what she's about to walk into. Yeah, there's a whole new layer of grief right there and how do I now support her and how do I hold her hand through it? That all makes sense 'cause there's so many layers. Like when your friend goes through something hard you grieve that too. And then when you are going through grief and your friend is pregnant, like just all the layers there of what you were saying, Alice, I'm wondering like how do we continue to be friends now? And then the whiplash of that when you get the call and just all that runs through your head of like, God, how would you have allowed this to happen? And I think when some of these situations happen it almost feels like lightning strikes, like it's so rare even just for one person to have walked through this. And then for two friends to have walked through it it does cause us to step back and be like, God, is there something deeper to this? And a lot of it is the result of the fall and yet he's using it, he will redeem it. There's nothing beyond his redemption. And so he knew from the beginning of time and he's redeeming it all. But leaving us wondering like, what are you doing and why? The Hope Mummy's podcast is currently seeking sponsors for upcoming episodes. For only $25, you can sponsor an episode in honor of your Hope Baby or as a gift to a friend or family member to remember their Hope Baby. When you submit an episode sponsorship you are able to submit a personalized message that will be read out loud on the podcast. If you'd like to sponsor an episode in honor of your Hope Baby or on behalf of a Hope Mummy, you know, visit hopemummies.org or click the sponsorship link in the show notes. How did you reconcile God's goodness in grief? And also we alluded to, I was saying, like God knew this from the beginning of time, like your ministry is called for known and I would love to know how you came to that name. But I guess we could combine these questions together. How did you reconcile God's goodness in grief? And how was that an encouragement or maybe even a struggle to know that God for new every detail and loves our babies and loves us even when they aren't here? - It took a while to get there, I won't lie. And I think that we swung sometimes of God, I fully trust you, I know that you're in the midst of this. I'm also really angry at you right now. But how do I get back to that place where I could hold both of those and I can just be honest and truly just lament with God and allow him into all of those broken pieces of our hearts? - For me, I have to go back to the crucifixion where God sacrificed his son, not just for me, but I have to picture it as he hung on that cross for my daughter who never got to breathe the air of this world who never got to experience life here. But he loved her so much and she was so worth it that he gladly hung on that cross so that she could wake up in his arms, staring into his face. And on those hard days, I have to focus on that gift that I couldn't get to her, that none of us can give to our children, but that he so lovingly and willingly gave to them. And that's truly where I'm able to reconcile that he is all good. - For me, Kristen, I remember being at church on a Wednesday evening, it was like a worship night and I remember telling a pastor like, "I know that God is gonna redeem this." And he just looked at me and he kind of like grabbed my hand and he said, "You know, it's okay to not be okay, right?" "Oh, it's okay to grieve and to just, you know, like to not have a through cup." - Yeah, yeah. - And it's something I'll never forget because I think after Woodson for me, I was like, "Well, you know, it was, dare I say, kind of an optimistic outlook. Yes, what I walk through is devastating and tragic, but I'm like, I know God will use this, but it wasn't until I think we lost Linux in 2020 at 18 weeks that I just got met at God. I remember a very heated conversation that I had with the Lord in the front yard of my mother's house in Kansas, and I remember just being so angry and consumed and anger because I felt betrayed. I felt abandoned and I felt like God, this is even after we've started for note, like what am I doing here? That you would continue for this to be my story. And it was a very sweet and intimate way in which the Lord met me and he said, "I'm not forcing you to stay. I'm not holding you captive." And I was just like, "Whoa, I never really knew I had the option to leave." And he so tenderly just spoke to me in that moment and said, "This is not a hostage situation. Like you're free to go." And he's just said, "If you choose to stay, we together will get through this. We will get to joy and hope." But if you choose to walk away, like he showed me a bitter woman who was just so self-absorbed, so self-consumed in jealousy, in bitterness, and in anger and resentment. And she was ugly, she was nasty. And I just knew that that's who I would become if I didn't choose, because it truly is a choice. Because no matter how good of a Christian you are, when you go through a loss like this, your life and reality as we know it, there's a fork in the road that is placed. There's a stake that is planted so deep in the ground that it says, "Choose today, you will serve later." Choose where my hope is. Is it in the world and people and things? Or is it eternal? And truly, it was a defining moment in my grief. The way that I recalled his faithfulness in that season was I dove in description. I dove like so deep in description. I wrote verses of God's promises. There was probably a hundred of them around framing my bathroom mirror and my mirror that I get ready in front of in my room, in my bedroom, just so I could recall his goodness when I was doubting. And I would read those sticky notes of God's promises. And I would say, okay, show me that today. I need this. Because God's faithfulness never wavers even what we go through does, right? Even when our circumstances do. And that is because that's his character. That's his nature. And for known, like the word for known comes from Jeremiah 1 5, that says, I knew you before I formed you in your mother's womb. Before you were born, I set you apart. And I pointed you as a prophet among the nations. And it just speaks to God's heart for our babies. They're like, no, God didn't wake up one day and was shocked and realized, hey, what's been like, you knew that the time that we had with our children in our wombs was sacred and anointed and appointed for your time. - I had a woman say to me after I lost Chora, I can't believe you carried her for nine months and had nothing to show for it. And you know, that's what those phrases where you just shout, I'm gonna throw a patch of poop. But the Holy Spirit took over in that moment. And what came out of my mouth is nothing other than I have to give him all the glory. But I said, God knew that this was going to happen. And He gave me nine months with her. What a gift that was. And I truly have to focus on shifting my perspective from what I lost to God, show me the blessings that you orchestrated in the midst of all of it. And for me, that blessing was those nine months. And someday we're gonna wake up in heaven and we're gonna be with our children and our savior. And that's the gift that keeps on giving. - The reminder of like the perspective shift. Like you just said, when we think about what we have lost to allow ourselves to think about what they have been. You know, for our living children, that's the goal. We want them to be good human beings and not end up in prison and to love Jesus and to love others. And I joke about that, but that truly is the goal. That our babies just receive a lot sooner than we anticipated. - Right, right. That perspective shift is so powerful 'cause as soon as you were saying that woman, what she said to you, those statements can feel so frustrating. And on the flip side, I can see how someone could think that way and I could see how we in our despair could fall into that. I'm like, God, why would you have allowed all of this? What practical steps can we take toward reframing our perspective? 'Cause I could see how despair could tempt us to just be swallowed up in bitterness and an anger at God. I remember feeling that in some of those days immediately after Ethan died, Ethan was an answer to prayer after years of infertility and praying for a baby. And I had a few complications in the first trimester that God miraculously took away. And we kind of made it through all these miraculous points and then for him to die in our arms after birth. I remember having some of that thinking of God, why did you say yes to all these other things only to what in my mind in those initial days felt like a cruel ripping him out of my hands? Which years later, months later, like in time with the Lord, I see that my perspective was clouded by my flesh and my grief and my pain. And so how do we take steps for shifting that perspective where we can see it as God, you gave me this time with my baby rather than everything that I've lost. - You grieve. One thing that was really impressive on us is the importance of true lamenting and what that looks like. It's something that we actually incorporate to our retreats and even our courses now is like, what does it look like to biblically lament and to go before the Lord? Just as David did and lay out, lay it all out 'cause my heart is ripped out, right? - And lay it all out before the Lord and truly cry out to him knowing that he will hear you, he does hear you and he's with you. If we don't go through the grieving process and we try to either skip it or fast go, do not collect $200 like we are missing pivotal moments but also intimate moments with our father in the relationship that he wants for us to be able to trust him. - I think as Christians, humans, we've done a really good job of placing God on this man-made pedestal. Now, he deserves all of our praise and all of the glory and our reverence and all of that. But we put him so far out of reach that we've started to believe that he's not here with us grieving with an honest. And so I think to piggyback off of lamenting, if we can take God off of that pedestal and like Kelsey said earlier, dive into scripture, dive into the truth. What does it say about God and who he is? Does it say that he is so far out of reach and judging me and looking down on me and saying, get over it and he's heartless and he's cold? No, it says that he is sitting with me in those places and he is grieving with me. And he collects every single one of my tears. And that was where I had to go with just like Kelsey said, in scripture, because when you've got, when you're in such a raw, vulnerable place and the world is telling you, you should be mad at God or you should be doing it this way or you're such a victim, like, yes, we are victims, but I don't wanna have that victim mentality. I wanna be an overcomer by the blood of the lamb and the word of my testimony. And so I had to silence the world and I had to stand on the firm foundation of scripture because I knew that will never change. The word has never failed me. That's what I can go back to and know that Holy Spirit and the Lord are gonna meet me in that and use that as a tool to be this bone to start to heal my heart. But it's something that you have to fight for, which I think is the hard part because when you're so broken, you're exhausted and to think, oh, there's one more thing that I need to do can be so overwhelming, but there's so much richness and reward and healing when you go to the Father and when you go to that scripture and claim that over your life. - Yeah, that's so good. Just going to God's Word and I love you both alluded to this and I have found this to be so true. It sounds counterintuitive, but the way to shift our perspective, it makes me think of the phrase like the only way out is through. - We try so hard to just like skip grief and it seems like that would be the answer to changing our perspective. Like I just need to put a silver lining on everything and try to see the bright side in everything. And while, yes, we do wanna see hope that we haven't Christ in everything, drawing near to him with our pain is part of how we shift our perspective and it's coming to him and allowing ourselves to feel those hard feelings and knowing that God knows what we feel. If we try trying to hide it and press it down, like he knows it's there and we will pay it. I forget who I've heard say this, but I've heard the phrase. If you don't grieve now, like we pay it in interest later, like we just will grieve harder later. Like it hits us worse later. And so knowing that it's okay when we feel that those feelings and I'm not saying bitterness is okay, but when we feel bitterness, 'cause we will, because we are humans and we will fight our flesh every day. And so when we feel it to bring it to God and tell him like, God, I feel angry right now. I feel bitter, help me and coming to his word and that is what is gonna sustain us. And that's where we'll see too. Like you were saying Allison, like we put God in this human box, God is so much bigger than we may come out to be and yet so much more personal and intimate and nearer than we may come out to be. And so just being encouraged in that and allowing him to transform how we think and our perspective and to comfort us. - Would you say that joy and/or healing? And maybe that's a, I don't know, that can be a hard word. I think sometimes within the lost community is like, can we heal? But do you think joy and healing is possible after miscarriage or stillbirth or the loss of an infant? And what are some practical steps we can take toward that joy? - Let's go. - Let me. - Bring it. - Let me in. - Well, Kelsey was about to jump out of her chair. - For sure. - Yes. - Like enthusiasm. - Yeah. - There is such a clear difference between comfort and healing. Comfort is temporary. Healing is eternal. I can find so much comfort in binge watching 18 hours of Netflix, right? Because I can tune out reality, I can escape. There's so many ways to escape grief and to find that temporary comfort. But if I want to heal, right? Our counselor says, we're gonna irrigate some wounds that have been here for a while. We're gonna rip back a Christian band-aid that's been put on some wound. And to irrigate a wound for it to properly heal has to happen from the inside out. When you look at the inside of your wound, you can see that where God made your heart. And the amount of pieces that your heart is in right now. Because he's the one that made it. And he's the only one that knows how to put it back together. And so when you say, look at my heart, see the pieces that my heart is in. What do I do with this? Show me piece by piece, as I surrender to you, I choose to trust you, I choose joy. I choose you to heal. I ask for healing. Show me if there's anything that I need to focus on. There is a posture in surrender in grief that is so intimate. And so yes, it can be work, like I also said. But also it's allowing Holy Spirit to fight for you in a grieving season, right? He sees you. I mean, he truly says like, I am near to the broken hearted and I save those who are a Christian spirit. What does it look like for God to save you? It's a really common phrase in the grief community where it's like losing a child is like cutting off a limb and choosing to continue life. But yet why limit God to just that? The goodness of God, his desire for us is for us to be able to run again. And truly, I believe, we believe that joy is possible after loss. Healing is possible after loss. You know, a lot of people think, I'm not gonna be fully healed until I see the Lord, until I see my babies one day. And I don't think that any of us will ever fully or I've before heaven. But yet God wants us to bring heaven down to earth, right? And if a piece of us, like I also said, is in heaven, there is a tender, sweet, intimate moment where he wants to make healing very real for all of us right now. I have to challenge myself to stop asking why? Did he allow it to happen? And start asking God, show me where you are in this. Because I don't know that most of the times we receive the answer to why. But if his scripture says that he'll never leave me or forsake me and that's his promise, then that means that he's there. Then that means that he was in that delivery room with me. So God, show me where you were. I prayed that prayer for months before he revealed to me where he was in the midst of my journey. That is a vision that I will never forget. And when he shows you not only the depth of his love for you but how even in your brokenness, he still chooses you. He's still there for you. He's still fighting for you. If he loves me like that, he loves my kid like that. And so as a mom, it can be so hard to think, my kid is in heaven, they're not with me, that's wrong. They're wanting for me, they're alone. And the reality is, is that they're with the best parents who they can have. And he is loving them in a way that is so much more beautiful than I in my humanness could ever love my child. And I had to get to a place where I asked myself the question if I could go back and prevent this from happening, would I? And it's a hard question because there's the very real part of you that's like, yeah, I would change everything. I wouldn't go through this ever. But then when you see the ways that the Lord has revealed himself to you and the intimacy that that's created and what your child experiencing in heaven, I couldn't ever ask for her to be back here with me. And the fact that we serve a God that is that gracious and loving, I'm not sure that I will ever fully be able to comprehend the weight of that and the gift that is. - Such an encouragement. There's nothing that is ever gonna come close to the joy that we have in that reality. I love that reframing of that healing is eternal. Comfort is now and healing is eternal. And I have never heard it phrased that way. And I'm just soaking that all in 'cause that is just so good. So I wanna kind of shift gears and talk about support and community. I know that that is something both of our ministries do really well. And I think where that comes from is we know how needed it is 'cause we needed it. And we've seen the beauty of having a friend in the trenches with us. And we've seen what help that can be to have really good support around us. And so I know you had mentioned, I think it was you, Kelsey, that when you got home from the hospital, you had like 30 people in your house. And that is such a gift. It is such a gift to be part of a church family or to have friends or to be part of a community where you have people that rally around you and they bring you meals and send you flowers and they text you and ask how you're doing. And as wonderful as our communities maybe, it is a very common experience. And I've been on the opposite end of this when I've had friends go through hard times. We're in the beginning, we rally around that person, we give them all the love and support, and over time that begins to wear off. It's less frequent, people move on. And on one hand, I understand this. I mean, people are gonna go back to work. We're gonna have to go back to work. People have responsibilities. They're not intentionally trying to move on, but the support kind of wanes over time. And so what would you say to encourage the woman who is in that spot where the meals are stopping, the calls are slowing down and everyone else is kind of going back to their normal routine. And she now is in this new normal where her routine may look the same, but nothing about it feels the same. How would you encourage someone in that season trying to find community again and trying to find that support when everyone else has moved on? - I think first of all, I would say your life has changed. You are not going to go back to the person that you were before your loss. And that's not bad, that's fine. That is the only thing that I remember from chorus funeral was when the pastor looked at everybody who was there and said, you guys are gonna go back to normal life. Their lives have changed forever. You cannot put pressure on yourself to function the same way you did before your loss. Because you're different. And that doesn't have to be a hindrance, that it's not bad, but things happen in our lives that change us. And so I think first I would say don't put pressure on yourself to run at the same pace as you did before your loss or to function the same way to think the same because you're different and that's okay. There are so many resources now to get people plugged in with community. We recognize that not everybody has the support that we've had, which is a huge part of the reason we started for known is because we want everyone to have access to a community. And so if you don't have it where you live, you can find it through apps, you can find it through Hope Month. Like there are so many resources out there to get you plugged in with a community because the reality is we were not created to walk through life alone, to walk through hard seasons alone. We need one another. And I think that is what COVID showed us is. - Right. - We cannot say how much we need that one another. - No. And so find it if it's not where you are, get online because there are so many resources that can connect you with people where you are or connect to you digitally. - And also lead with what you need, just as we need to be vocal and honest and transparent to God about what we're feeling. We also need to be vocal and transparent to our core community evil about how we're feeling. Grief share, for instance, they recommend writing a grief letter to those closest to you saying things like, hey, Christmas is coming up. I'm not gonna be at these parties and here's why. 'Cause here's where I'm at. Here's my struggle. Here's the current state of my grief and my heart. Thank you for your understanding. It is so beneficial to say, hey, I'm just, I'm not okay right now. Like a grieving season when turned inward and upward can actually be very fruitful. So when we lead with what we need in hard seasons, it allows others to be there for us in ways that will truly bring comfort. - That's such a good reminder 'cause I think, I know for me, and maybe I'm the only one, I don't know, but I assume that people can read my mind sometimes. Like they'll figure it out, they know what I need. And we don't, like people don't. And we know that from having been on the opposite end of watching a friend walk through something that maybe we haven't, we don't always know what they need. And we do our best, but we don't always know. And so there's a place of vulnerability of asking, but it's helpful. - Especially your spouses. - Oh my goodness, yes. We could sit here another hour about that. - A whole other hour, for sure. - They need us to say what we need because if we don't tell them, they will not know. 'Cause we are opposites in so many ways. - Totally, we groove so differently. - Yeah. - Especially when it comes to our spouse, like when we are transparent with how we are. Even if it's just, you can't even articulate words. If you're like, today was a one, or today was a zero. And your husband says mine was a 10. (laughs) Or a seven. You know, maybe tomorrow you might switch numbers, but you're able to just come back to the table, connect, and really talk about where you are. And grief is messy. Grief is messy. We don't do grief well as a society. Like when we sit with someone in the worst moment of their lives, without the platitudes of, I'm here if you need anything, they're not gonna let you know if they need anything. 'Cause they don't wanna put anyone out. When you be that person and show up with a half a car full of Costco paper goods because people are coming, family is coming in to attend a funeral or to be with you, or you just show up with free freezer meals that they could just have at a moment's notice, even when you just show up and sit. And when no words are even, you're just present. That is a gift to a bereaved parent. One thing that I learned that I wish I would have done during the microwaving season, because I'm so bad at asking for help. I don't wanna be the burden, but I want people to ask me for help. You see how that smooth, that's great. What I have started to do is with my girlfriends, I will say in this season, I am trying to do better about asking for help. Please keep me accountable if you have not heard from me in the next month, because I know that my friends are for me and I know that they want to serve me. And if I've put that out there and then they respond in the month and say, "Hey, I've heard from you. "What can I do? "How can I know?" Somehow, for me, it takes the pressure off, because now they're following up to support me. And so where everybody's front loaded, everything knows that I'm gonna ask you for something in this season. The other piece of advice that I would give people is in agreement with what Kelsey said about leading with what you need, give people like re-examples of ways that they could help you. Hey, I'll see. Here are three options. You could come over and do my laundry. You could bring me a meal or you could sweep my floors, whatever it is, and then allow them to choose. And that also helps take the pressure off of, "Oh, I'm being a burden," because people do deeply want to care for you in that season. And by giving them the opportunity to make a choice of how they want to do that can be really life-giving for both of you. And the worst you can do is stay in that isolation, because that's where the enemy works the best, is when we're alone, lonely, in our own minds. Yeah. And so to say, you know, I don't need anything right now, but can you just come sit me and to be willing to allow people to just talk to you and to say your baby's name, you know, for your baby to be known, can just be in the long run of it all in the high thigh. It could be such a blessing. Yeah, so helpful. Such good tips. And I know husbands, they grew in their own way and they need support just as much as we do, which I know you all actually have support for dads. Do you want to talk about that real quick? Yes. So foreign men started two years ago, because if we think that there is a lack of hope-filled resources for women, there is probably any for men, unfortunately. And so for a lot of men, this is like the first traumatic thing that a lot of people face in their marriage. And they're learning how to lead their wives on a daily basis, little hona in a grieving season. And so for men to come alongside men who have lasted baby and say, "No, there is a space that you can bring you to." There is a space for you to be known and seen in this grieving process. This is not just for your wife. It's truly a gift. A lot of guys are just told them, "Pull yourselves up by your bootstraps, move on." But yet again, like you said, Kristen, when you sweep that grief under the rug, it's still there and you're gonna trip on it. And so to be able to allow men to process in that space is vital. It is vitally important, not only for the man individually, but for your marriage. Yeah. That's such a helpful resource. I'm gonna make sure to link to foreign-owned ministries and also to foreign-owned men in our show notes. So if you are interested in more information, definitely go to the show notes and click the link there. Well, as we wrap up our time together today, I wanted to ask you both the question that we ask of every guest on the Hope Mommy's podcast. And that is, how have you maintained hope in the midst of grief? For me, I think hope is a daily choice. I have to wake up and I have to choose truth over my feelings. I can get caught up in my thoughts and my feelings a lot. And when I can trade that out for truth, like I said earlier, for me, it continues to go back to that image of Jesus hanging on the cross and thinking about me and thinking about my daughter and that he knowing what he was gonna face, knowing the pain that it was gonna be, knowing that he could snap his fingers and it would all be over with, chose to go through that. And I make myself sit in that in both the gratitude and the grief of it and recognize that this earth is not my home, that one day it's gonna be so much better than it is now. And he obviously has not said that my race is over yet. And so how can I encourage other women and other couples who are going through this with the hope that I have? And it's amazing what helping other people will do for you and for your journey. - Yeah. - I think, along the same lines, hope is a gift that is my choice to open from the Lord. When I think of who God made Kelsey to be, I am naturally a very hopeful, optimistic, joyful person that like my happiness is fleeting. My happiness is like a little dangling carrot, but my joy, my joy is deeply rooted in Christ. And so when I think about who Kelsey is and my hope and where it comes from, I find fulfillment in many different things, including ministry, but yet the core of who Kelsey is, is when I'm like a little girl in my quiet time. I could be an author, a speaker, whatever, but who God made Kelsey to be to my core is the little girl sitting on my knees in front of the Lord saying, what would you have of me? - Yeah. - Show me your love. Thank you for your faithfulness because it did those moments that I received my hope, you know? - It's really good. Thank you both so much for coming on and for sharing about your babies and your stories and about hope with our listeners. That means so much. I'm so grateful for the two of you and grateful for your time. - Well, thank you so much. - It's always an honor to share our stories and to partner with other phenomenal ministries to do this kingdom work together. - It's a tragic honor. We like to say it. I love that phrase, a tragic honor. We never wish that any of us would have had to go through what we have, but yet the joy, the hope, the eternal perspective. - Worth it. - Praise God for that. So grateful. - Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Hope Mommy's podcast. If you were encouraged by today's episode, would you consider leaving a review in the app store or sharing today's episode with a friend? And don't forget to subscribe to the Hope Mommy's podcast so you never miss an episode. The Hope Mommy's podcast is a ministry of Hope Mommies, a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization that exists to bring bereaved families comfort, encouragement, and relational support as they continue to walk this side of eternity without their beloved son or daughter. The music used is Sparrow Song, courtesy of Katie Cobb's and Flourish Creative. For more information or to connect with our online community, visit hopemommies.org. ♪ How lovely is your dwelling place ♪ ♪ My soul longs, it longs for you ♪ ♪ Mmm ♪
