- Wait, you have a TV? - No. I just like to read the TV guide. Read the TV guide. I don't need a TV guide. ♪ Scroll visit the lady ♪ ♪ Scroll visit the lady ♪ ♪ Scroll visit the lady ♪ ♪ Ah ♪ - Hi, everybody. Welcome to TV Guidens Counselor. I am Ken Reed, as always. I am your TV Guidens Counselor, and I'm very excited. I always say that I'm very excited, but I mean it, and I am extra excited this week, because my guest is the fantastic Janine Garafolo. Yes, that Janine Garafolo. It was great to talk to her. I've been watching her on stuff for years and years and years, I've always enjoyed her standup, and it was really great to talk to her. We bond a bit over our mutual love of SC TV. I love almost everything I've ever seen her do. I can't think of anything that I haven't enjoyed that Janine has done, from TV Nation to Ben Stiller Show, and I loved her on Air America, and it was great to get to talk to her. I talked to her out at the Bridgestown Comedy Festival, which is an excellent comedy festival in Portland, Oregon. If you have the means, I highly recommend that you attend it some year. It's very, very fun. Janine, as she mentions, is not on social media at all. All of the Janines on social media are actually fake Janines. So I will not be linking to her social media on tvguidescounselor.com because it doesn't exist. So you will just have to see her live. She does have a website, though, with some dates on it, since she's doing some touring. So definitely go see her, if you have the means, if she is in your town. And I think you'll enjoy this episode very much, so please sit back, relax, and listen to TV Guidescounselor with my guest, Janine Garafolo. (upbeat music) ♪ I'm living inside of a little classroom ♪ ♪ I'm living inside of the tuba ♪ ♪ Oh, everybody's made of these little tiny feelings ♪ ♪ And sometimes I think 'cause I'm blue ♪ ♪ They're mine ♪ - Janine Garafolo, thank you so much for doing the show. - Thank you for having me. - Oh, you're welcome. It was, we both got lost in Portland. - We did. - Yeah. - It's literally in metaphors. - Yes, we wrote a script about it. We'll shop them in a round. - Right. - Yeah. - I really think it's got legs. - I think it does, too. - It's gonna be great for new TV. You know, with the new golden, the second golden age of television. - Yeah, lost in Portland where you just find, like, is this a real food truck, or is this a mirage? - And just, and where, where can I get some chocolate where I watch them make it? - Yeah. - And they're very specific about where it's sourced. - Source to Peru. - Yeah, yeah. Who picked this? Do you have the name of the person that picked this? What do you call him? - What kind of nibs are you using? - The nibs. - The cocoa nibs. - Yeah, I made the mistake of buying cocoa nibs because I was like, "Hmm, that sounds pretty good." And they're, like, horribly bitter. - They're very bitter. - Yeah, I was like, "Oh, this is not good." - They're very bitter. I can't resist. Oh, they're Hudson Brothers. - Yeah, so you picked an edition from 1978 here. - 1978, yes. This is September 23rd through 29th of 1978. My birthday is September 28th. I was just turning 14 this week in television guide history. - Yes, yes. - 35 cents. - Good deal. Do you guys have a subscription to TV guide when you're up? - Yes, we did. And as a child, probably others did this too. I would go through it and circle what I wanted to watch for the week. - It was very important. - Because you had to see it then. - You got a plan. Did you ever turn down anything 'cause something was on that you had circled, like someone invited you somewhere and you're like, "Oh." - Well, yeah, but it's not like I was getting invited. - Yeah, when you didn't need me. - That many places when I was 14. - Yeah. - But I was also a huge fan of TV and of the specific things I wanted to watch as I am to this day, but. - Did you have one TV in the house? - Well, we used to have just one big TV and then probably around the time I was that age, I think I had a little red black and white TV with the rabbit ear. - Yeah, a little Magnavox, portable. - Yeah, yeah, in my bedroom. - Yeah, that was a, that was like a whole taste of freedom that you would get where you're like, I have this window to everything right in my room. A little black and white TV, and then also, these were back in the days of turning the television knob, but we were also, interestingly, a test family for HBO, home box and stuff. - Really? - In around '74, '75. - 'Cause it started in New York as, it was just Philly with the Madison Square Garden Network. - Yes, and we lived in Madison, New Jersey. - Okay. - And which is very close to. - Madison Square Garden, that makes perfect sense. - Yeah, but actually, that's not why it's called Madison. There's a Madison in every state. - Okay. - And at least that's what I was told. - It's like German chocolate cake. - But exactly, but there, it was, it's probably about 40 minute drive from there, but so we had the HBO box that you put on, on the top of the television, and it would go-- - It was so slow. - Oh yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Slied to think, the knob back forth, and basically, here's what was on all the time. The great Santini, the original swept away. Sports, sports, sports. - How did that, like did a guy come to your door, like a box, and was like, "I'd like to offer you a deal." - I don't know how it happened, there were a number of families in my neighborhood. - That had it? - It's just one of those things. - Do you imagine being one of the families in your neighborhood that didn't get it? - I don't think it meant that much to people, but I think it wasn't really a thing, but I remember being exposed to some things I shouldn't have seen. - Oh, absolutely. - I saw a movie called Lipstick starring Margot Hemingway, which terrified me. - That is a really, that's like a stalker-y movie. - It's a stalker-y, very graphic brutal rape of both Mariel and Margot Hemingway. - Which in the '70s, there's so many rape movies. - Yeah, there was a case of rape with Elizabeth Montgomery. - Yes, she was in a ton of both movies. - And now there's just rape TV, which is crime procedurals that masquerade as something they're not. It really is just torture porn and misogyny and nonsense, criminal minds and SVU, all kinds of stuff. - It's an excuse to really, under the guise of being above it, like we're solving this crime. But also let me tell you all the details of this crime. - It's terribly exploitive and unimaginative and Dick Wolf never meant for that to happen, I'm sure in the beginning. - No, and it's almost weird when you see like a Death Wish movie, which was actually-- - A walking talk. - Was this screen debut of Jeff Goldblum. - Oh, really? - In Death Wish, he plays one of the rapists. He's really young. - That is unusual to picture-- - Very old. - In that context. - Yes, I caught it on TV a couple of years ago. I was like, is that Goldblum? Like, it totally takes you off. - I'm sure he's totally recognizable. - Oh, absolutely. - He's very Goldblum-y in it. - And yeah, there was the movie with Linda Blair, where she was in prison. - Oh, yeah, that's um, heat. - Was it Caged Heat? - No, maybe not, yeah. - With the shower scene, yeah. But there's another rape revenge movie that she's in where her sister's death, and then she goes after these punks with a crossbow, it's called Savage Streets. - I don't know that way. - All the, like four or five of them. - Well, if the tale is all this time, I mean, this type of stuff is not new, but it's never been so packaged and slicked up as it is on like the CSI or these type of shows. - Yeah, 'cause even in the '70s stuff, it was, it had like a, it seemed sleazy, and even in these big studios, we're making these movies like straw dogs, had a, had kind of a, like a pedigree too. You know what I mean? But it still had this like grimy, like it was unpleasant, and the slickness of the stuff now. - And I actually read an article and you may have heard this as well that these procedural shows are making juries really difficult, because the procedural shows are essentially science fiction. Like they're like, oh, pull up the DNA on that, and you can't do that. - Right, they have things that don't exist. I was actually on a spin off of Criminal Minds, called Criminal Mind Suspect Behavior for a season. - Okay. - Where I played a fast Whittaker's partner. - That's it. - And never. - Oh, fast times there was one high. - Never, yeah. - Never have so many people been, worked so hard for no particular reason. There, force Whittaker, a wonderful person, great actor, should never have been subjected to what he subjected to, and myself, and Bo Garrett, and Michael Callie, and Matt Ryan, Matt Ryan also, who played Hamlet from Wales, and he played, he's a Shakespearean actor who thought he should do American television, 'cause he didn't know. - Well, British actors do, and then they come over here, and they're playing like a supervillain, or. - Or on, they're on Grey's Anatomy or something, but it's, it was such a shame, because it's, there was no reason to make that show. There's no reason to have that show Criminal Minds on, in general, right? - Right. - It does very well in certain segments of the country. - There's channels that you show up all day. It's just, yeah. - Yeah, Criminal Minds, and people, and the thing was, as bad as Criminal Minds is, this was way worse, this spin off one. - What was the angle on the spin off? I don't remember. - I have not, it just, it was mercifully canceled after a season, and my character was shot in the head in the last episode, and it was one of the greatest days in my life. - Yeah, yeah. - Honestly, to know that I didn't have to go back to that. Now, having said that, I liked the cast and crew very much, but I had nothing to say good about the structure. - I'm picturing like in a werewolf movie, where the werewolf gets shot with a silver bullet, and then, before they dies, the human, they just go, "Thank you." - I would love to go down that. That was my feeling inside. - One good shot in the show, and he's like, "Thank you for releasing me from my prison." - I was thrilled, I was thrilled. They didn't want me back, either, because they knew that I was very disturbed by the scripts. - Did you think it would be different when you went in? - I shouldn't have, I was just so flattered that somebody offered me a job, 'cause it's not like there's people banging down my door to work for them, so, once enough time goes by, and you're not, you know, you're auditioning and failing, you're not getting anything, you con yourself into thinking against your better instinct. I knew deep down, I would not be happy. I took it anyway, hoping, a little sliver of, but you never know. Force would occur, you never know. - It's a good, I mean, I've talked to people who, yeah, they, on paper, they're like, "Oh no, look at the people involved." You know, they explained it this way, and then you go in, and you're like, "Oh no, that's not, I just don't." - And the worst thing is, I intensely dislike criminal minds, and you know, Mandy Patankin, who I like very much left criminal minds for the exact same reason I wanted out, and of course they treat, the legend is he's the bad guy, you know, around there. - Yeah, so one more money, yeah. - That's not it at all, he just cares about what he does, you know, for letting. - This totally, I don't know why I know this fact, and this may be totally apocryphal and wrong, but isn't there a Mr. Show sketch? - Yes, he's in it. - When you came up with, Mandy Patankin was a horse, as a name of a race horse, it's where Bob Odenkirk plays the pool shark, right? - Well, Mandy Patankin was in an episode of-- - He's in the movie, isn't he, you know. - He's in the thing with Jack Black, the musical of that. - Run, run, run. - He's in that, yes, but he's also in the first season of Mr. Show. - Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. - In the musical version of that joke about the farmer's done. - Yes. - And then Mandy Patankin's horse is something like when Bob Odenkirk's doing a history through pool. - Yes, yeah. - I thought they were gonna say that you came up with Mandy Patankin's horse or something. - I might have, but I don't know for sure, it's just that there was a, I think my contribution was, I thought the horse should be called Papa's Delicate Condition. - That's where this-- - Which is-- - Yes, yes. - That was my name for horse, which was after Jackie Gleason found. - Yes. - But I just thought that'd just be so. Papa's Delicate Condition. - Yes, that is a perfect day for the thing. - Yes. - So I was like, oh, this is a long history with Laking Mandy Patankin, if that's because-- - Well, I do love Mandy Patankin, and I have for years, and I respected him immensely when I heard about Criminal Minds, that also should have told me something. - Yeah. - But again, like I said, you know, I always have stand-up, and I have been doing it since '85, I love it, it's very fulfilling creatively, but it's not always the most lucrative thing. - Yeah. - And also, I like to do other stuff too, in addition to it, and if you are successful in other areas, more people come so you do stand-up. - Yeah, absolutely. - So-- - But it's a delicate balance too, because you get that thing where it's like, you know, I've done shows with stand-ups that I've been lucky enough to open for, that have like a big comedy nerd audience, like Pat or someone, and so when you're opening for them, like the audience is like, you get the solo approval, we're here to see comedy, but then I've opened for people like Sagitt, who people don't even know that they do comedy. - Right, and they're not prepared for the type of comedy. - No, and they're going to see a famous person. They're not going to see a stand-up, so they spend the whole show being like, "Sock a dick!" And it's just like, no, this is-- - You have to be very careful, and also I have no social media platforms. There's a fake me tweeting in a fake Facebook me, it's not me, but over the years, that loses you audience too. So if you lose visibility in the acting world, and you lose visibility in the social media platforms, which I have, you have to expect that less people are gonna come see you, which actually is okay with me because I don't want to have social media-- - They want us, but the people who are coming, really are there, they're not stumbling in there. - Hopefully, yes, and that's also why I like to do comedy Sundays through Thursdays, as opposed to-- - It's not just, we're going on to do comedy. - Yeah, it's a different vibe, and also preferably, if you can do a venue that's not a comedy club proper, but if you have to do a comedy club, a proper comedy club, make sure it's Sunday through Thursday. - Yeah, 'cause on the Friday and Saturday, and I always say how weird this is when, I always point out, if you're talking to your friends something to do, you go, "Hey, let's go movie." You're like, "What movie are you gonna see?" "Just movie." - Yeah. - And you're like, "What do you mean?" You show up and it's like a horror movie, and they're like, "This is offensive and gross," and it's like, "Well, yeah, we did a horror movie," and be like, "I went to see movie. "This is not what I expected." - That's what happens on the weekends. - Yeah, they react that same way to comedy. - I came for a comedy show, it's like, "Yeah, you got one, not this." - But not like the one I want, or what I think I want, and you could say comedy's subjective, but it isn't, I actually disagree with that. - Some things. - Some things are funny, and some things are not funny, and now, there are people who do not think I'm funny at all. Okay, that hurts my feelings, and I hate when it happens, it just, it happens, it's just the way it is, but that doesn't mean that comedy's not subjective. - No, no, I mean, I would, I mean, kind of that as well. - I mean, it isn't, I just said that wrong. - Objective. - Objective, yeah. - There's an objective nature to it. There are certainly things that are like, "No, that's funny." - Or, "No, that's not funny." - Yeah, it's not funny. And yeah, I always think in this, you know, in my sort of like punk rock youth thing, I'm like, "If everybody likes it, it can't be good." But I'm like, that's true, though. - Which is sometimes true, then sometimes there are things that everybody likes, and it is good. - Yeah, but for art stuff, I feel like that's really rare. - But it does happen. - Yeah, for everyone's experiences, for something to appeal to that many people, it has to, to a degree, be really generic, because it can't be a very specific vision for a lot of ways. - True. - Because it's gonna be off-putting to somebody. - But then there are some things that somehow transcend. You could say, like, the Simpsons, as the example of there's something for the discerning person, something just for the casual. - Right. And that show's been on for so long, though, that it's like 10 different shows. - Right. - It's heads like SNL. You know, people, I need to look this up 'cause I always quote this and I don't know who said it, but someone said, "I can tell you the definitive answer "of what the best year for SNL was." And you can't argue with it when you were 12 years old. And it's always true because people argue their favorite cast and it's always the one they watch when they're talking about it. - You know, that's not for me because I have actually loved different cast members over the years and really, really admired some of the work through every year that no matter what, it's always been good and bad. - It always has. - That's the nature of it. But people like to make sweeping generalizations about it. So that's the way it is. But there's never been a season where there hasn't been something of value. - Yeah, and I agree with that too. But I also, I think we probably watched it in a way that your average person doesn't. Like, I'm not a sports fan at all, but I can rattle off SNL statistics the way people are like baseball players, stats, you know, I'm like, "Well, an A85 and a good team "and this person was their utility player." Like, I just, that, and I don't think people normally-- - Well, there's a lot of people actually who do that they probably just don't have, you don't talk to them that much, but there's a lot of people who do care very much about SNL because it's written about and discussed all the time. But that's a unique example because it is an institutional show. - It's the longest running show. - And I assume you watched that as a kid. - Of course. - But I was actually more of an SCTV fan. As big of an SNL fan as I was and am intermittently still, SCTV was-- - Amazing. - And it came on at 75 as well. We got it on an affiliate. - Yeah. - There was the half hour versions of SCTV. This was the original Canadian broadcasting version. We used to get it in Boston. You could get it from Canada sometimes. PBS would sometimes there. And then in 1980, they, NBC bought it as a Friday night show that they were grooming to replace Saturday night live, which they did in '85 as well with a couple of shows, including a Jay Leno sketch show, which is-- - Oh, I don't remember that. - Yeah, you did a 90 minute sketch show. They also asked Mike Nesmith to do television parts. - Mike Nesmith. - Mike Nesmith is my favorite person ever. - This is my favorite, I have unironically loved. - He's amazing. - Mike Nesmith's in '68, and I love the monkey. To this day, I love the show. I love the music. I think I love the monkeys. Mike Nesmith though, in particular. - Amazing. - And he's still tours. - I saw him twice last year. - I love him, and you know, I met him once, and I was so tongue tied that I fear it came off his route, which was not my intention. - But she's such a, 'cause I'm very intimidated by him well, but he's such like a congenial like, "Hey, how are you?" - It was so nice to me, and I could do nothing but be, what could only be perceived as surly, I think. This was probably around '97, '98, and we both happened to be staying in the same hotel. And for whatever reason, he was very, very nice to me, and he even invited me to lunch one day. - Well, he probably likes your work. - He's a big stand-up fan. - I didn't know that, and I said no about going lunch, 'cause I thought, I will never know what to say to this person, and I've always regretted that, and I've never been able to see him again, because when he's been on tour, both, one time when I was in Manchester, England, he was there, but I couldn't do it, and twice in New York, he was there, I couldn't do it, and I've always wanted to right that wrong. I'm sure he doesn't remember it. - You can reach out, I swear, he's a huge stand-up fan. His television parts show, which I don't know if you remember the show, he started, he invented the music video, which-- - That's right, and the MTV stole the idea of him claiming that it wouldn't work. - That they owned it, too, 'cause he sold it to Nickelodeon, originally, as I think, called Pop Clips, but he made the first video album, what you think, called Elephant Parts, and they used to air a lot of the sketches on Playboy TV, weirdly, as filler between things. - That's unusual. - Really weird. And so he did this show, called Television Parts, based on Elephant Parts, that he basically would take stand-up comedians he liked, he would say, "Here's a budget, make a three-minute short film." That was the only direction he gave them. - Wow. - And then he would air it. And so Gary Shandling did what ended up being the pilot for it's Gary Shandling show there. Leno did one of the things that I liked that he did, that was really funny. - Let me say this in Leno's defense, 'cause a lot of people, for whatever reason, feel like using him as a whipping boy. Fantastic, standard dynamic, especially in the '70s, '70s. - Before he got the "Tonight Show," he did some interesting stuff, and this-- - And he still does sometimes live. - Really, okay. - Yeah, when he-- And people thought he's a very nice man. - Yeah. - It's extremely nice, and he would like to be well-liked. I would say that I guess is his Achilles heel, which I can identify with. - 'Cause he's trying to make everybody happy. - When it's that important to you, and it is to me too, I can't stand it when people don't like me. - Yeah, no, that's-- - And unfortunately, lots of people don't, and it's devastating to me. - Yeah. - He carries it a little further than I'm capable of. You know, he's more capable of being well-liked by the most amount of people than I am. - Yeah. - Because I wind up alienating people. Somehow, mysteriously, I don't know how it happens. - Well, you think the more you're yourself, you're gonna inherently alienate people. - Yeah, I think that that's probably true. And the more you put yourself out, that that's another reason I stay away from social media. The more you expose yourself, the more you give people a reason to dislike it. - Well, especially people that do comedy, because you are doing a thing you created, and in the current climate with things like Twitter, everybody thinks that they're funny. - More than ever. I mean, doing comedy for a long time, I'm sure you've had people be like, "Oh, pretty funny," whatever. But we've basically invented technology to allow people to tell everybody that. So there's a weird antagonism where they're like, "Pfft, you think you're funny?" Like, instantly right off the bat. Like, and it's one of the only mediums I can think of it. Like, you don't go like, "Pfft, you think you can make a movie?" - You think you could be a lawyer? - I can make a movie. You think you can doctor, like, no way. But for that, it's so people instantly, it's sort of they're already sort of on the back foot. But Mike Nesmith is, I mean, he produced Repo Man, which is where that changed my life. Like, I'm like, "Yes!" - And that was back when it was unusual to have, like, an "indy" film that you had to go to the theater to see. - Yeah. - And it was there for as long as it was there. And then sometimes they would make these midnight shows of these films that really just captured the imagination of a segment of the population. And sustained, you know. - And you could, and that was how you found people that had to do the same interest. Like, if there were people at say, at a midnight showing of Repo Man, you know, like, all these people are my friends. - And they tend to like the same music you like, and they would tend to like the same comedians and television that you like. And it just sort of all goes together. - When you were at Emerson, right? - No, I did not. - Okay. - But I went to Providence College in Rhode Island. - Okay, but you lived in Boston. - And I lived, and then when I graduated, I lived in Austin. - Okay. - And hooked up with a lot of the Emerson kids. But I started doing open mics when I was still a junior at college. - In Providence? - Yes, Providence, but also I'd drive into Boston. - Okay, 'cause that was rough at that time. - Sorry, Winkles in Rhode Island and a couple other places. But mostly, it was only like a 50, 40 minute drive. So I would drive into Boston, not just to do open mics if I could, if there was space for me, but just to watch. - Yeah, I mean, it was great that what I was gonna ask too is in like the mid 80s, that's when the Midnight movie was like, the heart of it was sort of the corridor between New York and Boston. And you had the Orson Welles Theater, which closed in like '86, but I don't know if it was around or you were hanging around there in the brattle. - There was the brattle in the corner. - It was cornered. - Nickelodeon, stuff like that. And there's just, yeah, there was just a scene and some of those theaters still exist today. In different cities and have made a comeback in different cities. - Which is interesting because with the way television has changed now, so a lot of the spectacle in movies came about because of television. And this is more for the listeners benefit than yours, but you know, like widescreen. And 3D. And all these things, movies said, we gotta compete, these people can watch this stuff in their house. And so once they figured out how to do that, then television kind of became a different animal, but in recent years where people now have home theaters. They can watch whatever they want at any time. Theater's a couple of years ago, we're like, we're gonna go away. But they've kind of looked back and made them more communal experiences now with Q and A's and Midnight shows. And that's kind of nice. Like they've seen that we have to have human interaction 'cause it's what we can offer. - 'Cause people do like to do that. Now, having said that, there's still some communal theater experiences that are a real drag. You have people with their phones and ill mannered. And you know, in the same way with just, there seems to be a lack of consciousness in those areas on airplanes. And you know, just stores everywhere, people just being loud and being scary. - And when you say something to them, they're like, taking a back, what did I do? - I know. And as is human nature, you, depending on, people tend to only say something if they feel they could physically take the person. - Yeah, that's true. - And people only tend to say something back if they feel like or if they're in a group. Now, I can't physically really take anybody so I can never say anything, you know? I can't fight, I can't, I wish I knew Kraue of Maga or self-defense or something, just in the defense of public decor. - No, I've definitely-- - And quiet. That maybe I think I could physically take this people which actually is probably the case. That's one of the, growing up in Boston, there are inherent things to my personality that I just hate, that you're like, don't realize they're weird till you start traveling. And you're like, oh, most people aren't like, I'm gonna punch you in the face. - Actually, that's not true. Most people are like that. It just depends on which parts of town you're in. - Right, exactly, right. - Today, this very day as I was walking to you here, I was walking and for some unsolicited reasons, a woman's walking towards me and she just let me have it 'cause she felt I wasn't paying attention looking where I was walking. I was in, I wasn't on a phone, nothing. I rarely-- - Was she in a car? - No, no, no, she was walking towards me and maybe she forgot to take her medication or something. - Yeah, that's positive. - But she's like, why don't you pay attention, look where you're going? We didn't even almost accidentally brush each other. - That's very weird. - Nothing like that. And-- - Maybe she was your guardian angel. - No, I was-- - Maybe she made a metaphorically. - No, she was a person who was boiling for a fight. - She just wanted anyone. - She was boiling for a fight and it must have looked like she calculated-- - I can take her. - I can take her. - Yeah. - Which she could, she can't. - So you're just like, sorry. - I am so unused to stuff like that. - Right. - I am, I think sometimes people misunderstand, not just me, but comedians in general. - Yeah. - As being people that can handle crowds or stresses or stuff like love, confrontation. I do not in any way. I'm not comfortable with it, I'm not used to it. - The person who wants to go have a one-sided conversation that they're in control of doesn't like confrontation. - Right, exactly. - You were thinking-- - It makes no sense. - But I actually, I'm not in control of it. You're not in control of the conversation. And also, I try to be as interactive as I can. And also, getting back to what I was saying, I accidentally alienate people because of politics and culture and speaking on these topics when asked. - Yeah. - Why that offends as many people as it does, has something to do with gender that's undeniable, gender plays a role in these things. - But it's industry too. - Definitely. There's two things. There's two sins up committed, being female and being in the entertainment business. - I know you're thinking. - Which many people feel that those are the two worst things that can happen to the political conversation. - You're not black, at least. - Well, that's different for some of the naysayers, right? They wouldn't feel comfortable criticizing it. - Right. - A person of color. - Yeah. - Because their racism is turned to tokenism in a strange way. They fear it. But for a female, and there's some people going, "Ugh." But there is a low-level hum of misogyny that afflicts every one of us in almost every culture. - I wonder if it's like, "I think I could take her." - I don't think it's "I think I could take her." - Some sort of caveman thing. - But there's definitely the comfortability of-- - Yeah. - It's not threatening. - I don't fear, it's not threatening. - Yeah. - But there's just two things. When it comes to discussing politics and culture, if you are female, and in the entertainment business, you have two strikes against you going in. - Yeah, I mean, not that it's right, but the female, when I understand culturally, because people, especially older people, are like, "You let the husband have the opinions on you." - Oh, it transcends generation. - It transcends generation. - There are certainly people who probably still have those viewpoints, and again, I don't agree with it, but I can see where that travels from. - It's still wrong. - But what the vitriol level that women in the public, think of Amy Schumer at the Friars' roast. - Yeah, yeah. - 90% of that vitriol is because she's female. - Women shouldn't say those things. - It's not even, I don't know what it is, it's not even a stance as complex, and that's not even complex as women. - They don't even know what their plan is. - It's a visceral limbic brain reaction. - This is wrong. - And also, if it's a person who they feel doesn't fit into their definition of beauty, that's a whole 'nother strike against you that people feel very comfortable pointing out. - How dare you. - But we're getting off topic. - Yeah, but for the end of-- - We needn't discuss this further. - For the entertainment industry piece, though, the weirdest thing, and I brought this up in the show a bunch of times, is that they're like, "You're an entertainment. "You have no business having an opinion." - Right. - And they're like, "You're so fucking serious, you weren't just--" - Shut up and sing. - Shut up and sing. - Well, first of all, everybody, the newscasters is in entertainment. Every single Rush Limbaugh is in entertainment. - Sometimes he's in charge of it, and sometimes he's not. - All of those people are everything they accuse a person who has been in a movie of. First of all, people like Rush Limbaugh make about $25 million a year. - Yeah, but he goes on and on about blue color. - But they'll talk about just playing work in both Bill O'Reilly upwards of 25 million a year. - Former Boston newscaster Bill O'Reilly. - Irish bully. - Bully, yeah. - Bully, he's just bullies, but they will project. They will accuse the other of everything they're gonna do. - What they do. - But there's no, for the average Fox moron, and any other moron, Fox not withstanding, who is on the wrong side of history. - The email forward crowd is on the wrong side of history. But they love to imbue people who happen to be in the entertainment business, or in the arts, or any of these things, or live on the east coast, with all these negative qualities. - It's just-- - Not real America. - It's just this easy, low-hanging fruit. - But they don't do that for any other professions. That's the word thing is like, just be a plumber, shut up about politics, fix the sink, like they don't do it. - At last that plumber, it disagrees with them. Then it's shut up and fix my sink. But yes, you're right. For some reason, a tax-paying citizen-- - They live in America? - Your tax-paying citizen. Allegedly, it's a democracy, we don't live in democracy. It's a managed democracy of sorts. And the first amendment writes, sometimes do in a do-and-a-hole. - I know what they say, yeah. - And then there's the nonsense like Pamela Geller, which has nothing to do with first amendment. - Yeah, that's just asshole. - She's just a provocateur who is terribly, willfully ignorant, pridefully ignorant, and mean-spirited. Again, we're off topic. We need to discuss this. - It's fun. Speaking of someone not pridefully mean-spirited. - Yes. - Mary Tyler Tinker. - Yes, Mary Tyler Tinker. - Yes. - As was. - Yes, Grant Tinker's was? - Grant Tinker's was. - Yes. - In 1978, Mary Tyler Moore. Now, the reason I chose this besides it was my birthday. - Yes, yes. - I have very, very fond memories, as a lot of people of my age do, of watching Mary Tyler Moore Kale Burnett on Saturday, Mary Tyler Moore Kale Burnett's new heart. - All the MTM churches. - On Saturday, it was MTM shows on Saturday with my mother. And my mother died when I was young. This is something that we both shared, and I would fall asleep in her lap. Every second could barely make it to the end of Carolina. - Yeah. - And also, there's things, and I think a lot of people feel this way, when you see your parents laugh genuinely, it can be unusual, and it can be something you remember. - Yeah. - And- - It has a real weight to it. - It has a weight to it. And that's what I love so much about Mo Walent. This is a Mo Walentee, writes children's books that their parents can like too, and he's frequently at Sketchfest, and he has the comedians read his children's books and act out the parts for the parents and their children. And depending on, like Kevin Pollock, just as one example, was doing one of the parts as Christopher Walkett in this children's book, and to see the parents laughing that hard, I was noticing little children noticing their parents laughing. - You learn how to be an adult by seeing your parents. - Yeah, you don't really get to see it, 'cause I think life overtakes a lot of adults. The quotidian aspect of life and child rearing. I mean, I've never had children or anything but one. I can see how you lose yourself as an adult in a lot of ways, especially if you have children. You don't- - You exist in the vehicle to keep that kid alive. - Yes, as you should. - Yeah. - Or you're supposed to. - A lot of things can be, depending on how your marriage is doing or not doing. - Yes. - All of these things affect how much you laugh in a day. - Yes, there's a couple, one thing is that, not to say that John Hughes really was really capturing a thing, but there is a line in the breakfast club that I still bring up, and it's Molly Ringwald says, "When you get older, your heart dies." - Which, I don't know if that's true. - I don't think it's totally true for people who it's true for. - Yeah, it's a little morcy-ish, but I think it's leading toward hyperbole. - It is, but I think there's- - Your heart changes. - But I think there's a suppress emotional reaction to a degree to get shit done. - That yes, but your heart also opens when you have children, and if you're prepared anyway, and then you, I believe if you are good at it, you love in a way you will never- - You experience things all over again that you would never would. - And you have an unconditional love that is for your children only. You can't have that kind of, really, and sometimes for your pets. - If you're a good pet at it. - That's that would be us. - Yeah, that's how it feel about my pets. - Although he watches me laugh and doesn't understand the shows, I don't wanna get it. But the other thing is that there's been studies that show that the number of times a person laughs in a day from childhood to adulthood, and I forget the exact numbers, but someone, a child between like two and five laughs like a hundred times a day, and then like an 18-year-old laughs like four. - Well, depending on how it's going, you know what I mean? I laughed all the time when I was a teenager, because I had a great group of friends also. - Yeah, you had inroads, you had experiences, yeah. - I was lucky that way. There was Garden Variety bullying as there is for everyone, but I consider myself lucky for what didn't happen. - Yeah, absolutely. - And could have. - Right. - You know, when you witness happened to other kids, but I laughed a lot, laughed so much through college, and luckily, because of what I do and events like this Georgetown Comedy Festival, I get to laugh a lot with my friends a lot, and that's a very good thing. Not as much as when I was younger, because also, I don't hang out as much anymore. I don't drink anymore and all that kind of stuff, so-- - And you've seen so much more stuff, and it's hard. But when you laugh, it's like more, you really, 'cause-- - I'm really laughing, and-- - I'll watch a comic show and people are like, "You're not liking this?" I'm like, "No, I'm enjoying it." And they're like, "You're not laughing." And I'm like, "Yeah, you kinda don't after a while." So when you do, it's like a really big thing. - But then there's times where somebody'll get me like, "That was so funny." Oh, I can't believe that person just said the perfect joke. That is so funny. And I still love watching TV comedy as much, if I like it or-- - Although, the problem we have, when we watch things too, is I'm like, "Ah, that joke should've been this." - Well, I actually feel like, sometimes I see, with a little judicious editing, this failure could be turned around. Sometimes I'll watch a show and say like, "Yes, just don't hold on that person. "Don't cut away after these jokes." - You almost got it. - Friends did it all the time, and other shows, there's this flawed paradigm at the mainstream networks of, once a character says something allegedly funny, or maybe it is funny, they cut away to each other, cast member making a face, it's a killer, it's terrible. - I hate mugging. I hate mugging. - It's a terrible idea, and it's, ABC, NBC, and CBS are never gonna catch up. They're never gonna change the way they do things because then a whole lot of people would have to get fired. So they will never admit to these tropes. Now, there are shows that do succeed, sometimes on these shows, despite the structure, despite the network's best. - That's good, I feel like, is despite. - Yes, it is. - Because TV in America is for showing you commercials. That is it, that's what it exists for. - Except for the new one, I mean, there's new channels. - The new model is exciting, but for years, I mean, that's what it was for. And it's also by design, by committee. And stuff by committee tends to be bad because it doesn't mix. So when anything great gets on TV, it's amazing. And it's two things. It's either despite the network's best efforts and things just happened, or you have a Napoleon at the home who is smart and has a vision that they are not gonna wave her from. That is what is needed. - And that's Mary Tyler Moore. I mean, she had to have her- - Grant Taker and she together were a formidable. - They had the production company, MTM, was huge. And they did stuff that wasn't just comedies and in comedies, and people forget that she wasn't just this actress on these shows. She was the business person behind the stuff. But at the same time, it's almost said that she kind of had to be doing the business end in order to make a lot of this stuff. - Right, there is, and then they were writers like James L. Brooks, who were writing, but that's also because of her and her ex-husband's taste. And they left them alone. And they fought for them when the network tried to interfere. Now that, when that happens, you can get a good show. But also you can get a bad one. There are, I won't name names, but there are little Napoleon's who have Emmy went and chosen, very popular shows that suck, who are under the impression that they're very good at. - I got my way and it's great. - Yeah, yeah, that's just the way it is. And it's very hard to say, but that shows sucks, even though it's- - It puts all these people watching. - It does very well. - But again, it has its person at the helm who doesn't take the notes and doesn't need to at this point. - But this is my way that we're doing it. - It's the only way you're going to get something is if the power of no. - Right. - Now if it's a good note, sure, take it. But rarely will it be a good note because these people aren't really paying attention. - It's a non-creative person, that's the only thing they know. - It's a non-creative person who literally is just doing something 'cause they have kids in private school and a mortgage they can't handle. That's why- - Property needs a new pair of shoes. - That's why a lot of these shows keep going is because the very top heavy structure of the mainstream network and the mainstream studio is filled with people who spend way beyond their means. - Did you ever see, well America's filled with people? - Like, yeah, but they're not making television. - Yeah, yeah. - Did you ever see a show in the late '80s called The Famous Teddy Z, which is a chore? - Yes, yes. - That's a really underrated show. And normally I'm not huge on art about art, like shows well-making shows. Like for some reason it, you know, there are definitely some prime examples of amazing versions of that, which actually I'll get to in a minute with the maritime more show here. But that show has an episode with, first of all, it's a show about Alex Rocco, who's an old, unlikable man in that show. And they sold it. They did a great bait and switch with that show because they sold it as this John Cryer vehicle. And by the third episode, he's hardly in the show. And it's a show about Alex Rocco as an agent in Hollywood. And there's an episode where these two people sell a show that's a documentary about orphans in El Salvador. And by the end of the episode, it's a show about a woman in a tube top with a dolphin that talks. But as you watch it, it kind of makes perfect sense how it gets to this place. - That's happened to all kinds of shows, like if the development deal said, you know, every comic gets offered over the years, especially in the 90s. Okay, we're on in development. Or you pitch them an idea. Yes, we love it. - Love it. - Yeah, we'll never see the light of it. That particular idea, in that way that you pitch it, that they claimed that they liked, we'll never make it. - They already had something else that they were just-- - And just that the comedy by committee starts happening. Or whatever by committee. And you either take the notes or you don't. And then, unfortunately, sometimes you get taught 'cause I went through development with every network you can imagine. And you get bullied into by your managers and agents 'cause they're gonna get a commission. - Right, we're gonna lose this deal if you don't take notes. - And really what I should've done from the very beginning of all of them was say, "No, I'm not taking, it's either this or this." - You hired me for a reason. - But the thing is they didn't. They just throw enough shit against the wall. So you're not special. I'm a disposable lighter like anyone. But there is a power of no. If you, and this is something I think that Tim Allen did and Rosanne Bartlett, when you say no, then they want you. They think, uh-oh, that person-- - Where's she having? - And where are they taking this show then? If we don't hang on to them. - What does she know? - Or what does he know? What does she know? So once you start taking these notes, they know that they have you. They know they got a sucker. And it doesn't work as well if you stop halfway through. - We don't respect anyone that kisses your ass. - It's just, it doesn't work out. But I got talked into every single time. And then unfortunately, if you get into development and you have a writing partner, and that partner's got kids or something, you're fucked. Because now you're doing it because this person that you like very much, who is your partner, needs a living, needs to sell this, and they're desperate. They don't care about the notes and stuff like that. So what you have to do is you have to write, you've got to stay focused on it, and neither do it by yourself, or have another person that isn't beholden to very understandable obligations about their family. But that gets in the way of what you're trying to do. - Absolutely, it's business getting in the way of creativity and their dynamically opposed forces. And I've talked to a lot of people who are on shows that they knew had gotten bad. But they're like, if I quit this show, it would be over. And there's all these crew people. And there's all these people that have livelihoods, and I like them, and I don't, and it's a weird place to be. - That's the only upside to bad TV is that people are working. That's the only upside is because the crews are always so great. That's the only way I can put a shine on it is. - It's a weird position to be in. - These crews are working. - But then you have people like Bonnie Hunt's one of my favorite people of all time. And a person who doesn't come up enough when people are talking about great people who did things. - But when you do say it, though, people go, oh yes. She's one of the people that is not for mentioned, but when she is, people go, yes, yes. - She's gay, famously, and I don't know if you've heard the story, she turned on SNL several times. She turned down Designing Women at 80 Grand an episode because it was no good. This was when they were flailing everybody and quit to be a cancer nurse for $20,000 a year. - Well, I think-- - Or something like that. - There's, first of all, there's what's great about that if these are true stories and they may be. I'm not saying she's not, I'm no way being critical. These may or may not be true because these type of stories go around. - They tend to inflate. - This may, it may well be very true. And I applaud that. And I agree with sometimes like there's no value in going on a show when it's flailing. - Right. - You're not gonna be happy. In the same way that getting back to the pilot thing, if you take, the show's probably never gonna air anyway. Always know that going in. 90% of pilots will never be made or never air. So why are you taking the notes? But Bonnie Hunt, if this is true, it's the only way to live with yourself. - Yeah. - Because it's not worth the money to be in any job that is chaos, that is failing, that is sinking, no matter what line of work. - You're the face of it and you're gonna feel the brunt. - Even if the awful failure, nothing to do with it. You just happen to be the person who went out and said the things that people recognize. - And it costs you in the long run. - Yeah. - Because then you're associated with this law. - With the failure. - And it affects your career. - Yeah, oh, absolutely. - So that affects your income too. So it's hard to see that when you have-- - It's hedging bets. - Managers and agents breathing down your neck or you have children defeat. So, but the thing is, it doesn't always work out the way you think it's going to. But then sometimes some people get super lucky like they get on a show that runs for a very long time and they're not bothered by content. There's a lot of great actors out there who truly they have this way of, - They just have fun. - They just have fun. Yeah, yeah. - No one associates it with them. They're like, I love him. This shows terrible, but they're great. - Yeah, yeah. They just manage A to be very good in the role that's horribly written, but they're very good and they're not bothered, particularly by the subpar writing. That is an amazing feat. - Those tend to be I think people that started as like character actors and they look at acting like we'll be in a vacuum salesman or like a go to work, do my job. - Yeah, they're like journeyman actors, but they also like to live well. - Yes. - That's an, so yes, A, they are journeyman actors and B, they like-- - Yeah, they look alike style, I don't afford to them. - Yes, they do. And there's a lot of actors who truly aren't bothered by content, then there's some that they don't know that it's bad content. - Yeah, which is so much worse. - Which is terrifying when you recognize it in your coworkers. - Have I ever done that? Like you start wondering? - You're like, oh, this person doesn't, they're not just being a worker bee. They're not just, they're not just-- - They don't know. - They don't know how truly awful she is. - Should I tell them? - There's no point. - Yeah, they'll just be mad at you. They don't, they're happy. And they're doing it, they're working hard. - It's like someone dating someone you don't like and you're like, they're not evil. You seem happy, I just hate them. I'm not gonna mention it though, 'cause you'll just get mad at me. - Because also, I'm the one who dislikes it, so I need to try and get out of this. - It's about me. - Yeah, I don't need to have you get trying to get out of this. Now, having said that, there have been shows where I have tried to ask my coworkers to stand with me when I bring something up that's particularly offensive or not fun. - I imagine that's very difficult to get them on board. - It is very hard. I have only managed to have a couple of instances where the person truly has stood firm. Then there's been times where they claim they will and they will not when it comes to it. So I find that over the years, I'll just do that by myself too. - Yeah, it's 'cause now you have to do two things. You have to rally these people and then hope that they, - Yeah, I was in bands before and being in a scene in that kind of capacity, it was people, you know, the rising tide helps all books thing and people are like, if he does well, you know, people might say, "Hey, what's going on?" And so when I started doing comedy, I was like, "That's all it will be." And then I'm like, "That's not how it is." Just it's very difficult to get people to do something they think might negatively affect them. - That's a less life thing, yeah. - And no worries, that more clearly played out. Then again, I hate to bring it back up, politics and culture, you know, when the stakes, like say the Iraq nonsense, try and find somebody willing to stand up and say something. This is just John and J.Q. public, take a side to stand firm. Now if it were to affect them, if there was a draft, sure, you'd hear people say something. - Oh, absolutely. - If they had to pay extra taxes, a patriot tax, you know. Of course then they'd say something, but it doesn't matter what you do for a living. - Or only have it up here. - There's nothing but cowards out there. - Oh, absolutely. Every line of work, because I only happened to be exposed, you know, since I started doing a stand up at 19. - Yeah, you're a public figure. - No, no, no, no, no. I was gonna say only exposed to this type of work. - Oh, I see. - I haven't worked in a corporate environment. - Right, you've always, to a degree, although it worked for other people, kind of been your own boss. - Only in stand up. - In stand up. - But what I was gonna say though, I've been exposed only to specific types of work, stand up and acting work. I mean, I used to have day jobs and stuff until I was 27, and then I could fully support myself in stand up. But what I was gonna say is there tends to be a level of obedience that's really painful to witness. But then when I'm in like, courtyard, mariots or whatever, I see the same thing in the business world, but I see blind obedience and unhappiness and cell phone gossiping. So it's no different, it's people. - It's just people. - Yeah, it's how you survive. I think a lot of people have to do that sort of thing. And it's always hard for me when I'm work day jobs and stuff and HR comes in and rallies everybody up. And I'm like, fuck you, I don't care if you make money. But then there'll be people who are like, yay! And I'm kind of like this idiot, but then I'm also like, they need to do that to get through the day. And they're not, and they really are getting involved. So I'm like, there's a place for it, but it makes me uncomfortable and it's too weird. - It makes me uncomfortable too, but it's not wrong. - Right, exactly. It's bad to don't tell them they're happy. - Exactly, so let them do it. If you are the one that's unhappy or I'm the one, then that's all we need to worry about. - Solve that yourself. - And you just solve it yourself and remove yourself if you can. Now removing yourself can be very, very difficult from these, from comedy shows and from TV shows. They tell you when you're done. You don't tell them, that's why I got shot in the head, by the way, in Criminal Minds. I had asked about my episode three, may I please leave? But not in a, I didn't want anything. They don't believe that. - It's not you, it's me kind of. - They are very distrustful of people who just want to leave and don't want money. - Where you going? - They, that's, and they won't let you go. They'll kill you so that you can't come back, but that's on their terms of how to fire you, but I even on one show offered to return my money that I had been paid already to leave, still couldn't go. It's power. You don't tell them when you're gone. - Now it's a personal thing. - Yeah. So finally though, we got it down to just six episodes, because I think they just got tired of me saying I can't, you know, and the thing is there's so many other actors who are not bothered, let them do it. - They could, they, I would love for them to do this job. - And I don't want them to do it. And they would do a better job than I'm doing. And they did do that after episode six, they moved in another actor, who's very good. - And did you watch it after that? Out of curiosity? - I actually never watched the, I, and I'm not saying that at a petulance, I don't watch anything that I'm in. - Do you never watch anything that you've been in? - I have watched things that are years gone by now. - Okay. - 'Cause that's fine. But nobody needs to see themselves in HD. There are some things I have to look at for looping. - Yeah. - You know, for ADR. - When you see it over and over and over again. - Or production, you have to see it, and then, and then sync your dialogue. - Yeah. - Hate it. And I've perfected doing it with my eyes closed to an art. - So you don't have to watch it so? - Yeah, I'm very good at looping. I'm very good at looping because I don't want to do it. I can't stand looking at myself in HD or blown up on a screen. And also, I second guess every choice I made. - Why was I? Why did I say that or this? And then a lot of times, for 90% of actors, 90% of what they're gonna do is crap. - Yeah. - There is a very, and also 99% of the actors union is unemployed most of the time. - Yeah, the average salary is like two grand a year or something. - So it's a very misunderstood thing. There is a layer of very lucky actors who you see all the time, who get to do good work with people working at the top of their intelligence. They have the protection of sustained career success. They are protected. They get to do good work with good people. That is 0.55% of the union. The rest of us, and I'm not complaining 'cause it's elective, nobody makes you do this and people tend to get into it for narcissistic reasons. - But once you're in it for a long time, you start it, yeah, like you can't go and apply for a job at a front desk at an office. - I have no skills. - People are gonna be like, you haven't worked in an office for 20 years. So hey, we know you're from that thing. - Oh no, nobody's gonna say, I'm not gonna get that we know you. - Okay. - Yeah, that's-- - Really, you don't get that? - Very, it's ebbed over the years. - Okay. - And actually, that's fine. - Yeah. - And it's better that way. And sometimes I get people who will say, why did you quit acting? I'm like, I didn't. But-- - I was fine for that. - It's one of those things that's like just, I just don't have as visible profile anymore because it's just not a lot of work for middle aged women. And I didn't have that sustained career. I wasn't protected. And I took two and a half years off to work at Air America. That's a real-- - Which you probably were really proud of that work. - I was very proud of that work. But it really wasn't real-- - Took you out of the game. - A real problem. And I've never recovered from it. And then you don't have social media platforms and you don't physically take care of yourself. There's all these kinds of things. - There's things that hurt. - I don't do what it takes to. I'm also not willing, I do get offered work that I would not do. - Right, and you don't do it? - Yeah, yeah, so I don't do it. Luckily, I don't spend a lot of money. I live quite moderately. But I've always been fiscally prudent for that reason. I got very lucky in the '90s. It was a fluke. I knew it. - You were rare in knowing that a lot of people. - I was in the right place at the right time. It never made sense to me at the time. I was grateful, but I felt this is fine. - You're a healthy skepticism about your future. - And I also had a heavy drinking problem. - Well, there you go. - And that didn't help being there. But as quickly as it started, around 1992, it ended around 2002. - Which, to be fair, is a good run for most people. - It's, yeah, I guess, if you look at the averages, I mean-- - Some people don't ever get the opportunities. - Yeah. - But I've been unsuccessful at it for longer than I was successful in that things dipped around 2002. It's now 2015. It never picked up again. And I also don't do what it takes to help that along, to try and help it. - But I mean, I struggle with this kind of thing all the time, too. Like, obviously, so much smaller level than you've attained, and there I ever will, but I turned down a ton of stuff. And I have a reputation in Boston as like Ken turns down paid gigs and stuff. I'm like, but that's a shit chill. Like, I don't want to do that. And like, I still have a day job and all my friends who I started with don't, but they're also really poor. And I'm like, but you have to take every gig that gets offered you because you need money. And I'm like, I don't have to do this guy's retirement party. And I'm gonna go do something that I feel better about. And then when I go on stage, I'm in a better head and I do a better job. - I saved, I saved when I, and I hired a very great business manager who makes sure that I don't spend. But like I said, I had a sense that there's no way they're gonna let me stay, but I mean, I felt like, how did I get in here? How did I, in around '92 until 2002, how am I being allowed to do these things? People are putting me in movies. You know what I mean? - Yeah, but that's very, very unusual that you had that awareness. I mean, 1.2, a friend of mine, he coined this phrase as Hollywood poor, which is the thing that we see all the time in LA where it's people who did very well for a short amount of time had cash, bought a house, and then basically are just struggling to pay the tax on it. They don't have any other bills. So you go to their house, and it's a beautiful house, but it's frozen in 1998. And they have a big screen TV from 1998. - Their house poor? - Yes, or like my friend Shane Moss, and I don't know if he's Shane Moss, he goes, I have to hike in these $500 Prada boots that I got for free on a shoot because I don't have any other boots. It's a Hollywood poor. - There's a lot of, well actually there's a lot of people like that, and that's why so many foreclosures and things across country plus a rigged system and a very duplicitous predatory lending. - They're off of the transaction. - There's people that didn't want to see what seemed too good to be true with their homes, understandably. They wanted to start, some people think that's how you start your life. I don't know why, but they do. I have no interest in buying a home. But I like to, I keep it small. You know what I mean? I keep my expenses down stuff. I even did then. Now, granted I have blown money here and there where I shouldn't have on-- - But it's a balance, you know. - But it's a balance on certain things. - Like the boat. - Like the boats. No, I don't have any-- - She arrived at the show today in a helicopter everybody with her face on the side. - And my helicopter. But I don't have, I live in New York, don't have a car. I live in a one bedroom apartment that I own. I bought it in '94. I don't go buy great clothes or anything like that. - You got splurgeon. - I would say I overspend on my dogs. - But you get a soul set. - I love them, they're my babies. But be that as it may, I don't have to take work. And having said that, I wish I could work more. I would like to-- - You want to be able to-- - I would be nice. - I'd say no to more things than people, yeah. - It would be nice to, I wouldn't say no to good things. - Yeah. - It's not like I'm being honest-- - It would be nice if it was more good things. - It would be nice if I would, if I was able to have access to that kind of opportunity. Which I don't, a lot of actors do not have access to certain opportunity. Some people don't buy that. Some people say you make your own-- - No, don't go. - That's not true. - Because the money that it requires to make these things means that it has to be controlled by a small amount of people. And so obviously everyone's not gonna have access to that. It just couldn't work that way, as much as it should. I mean, I, soon you said 92, is that's the other Ben Stiller show started? - Well, 92, I was on Larry Sanders and Ben Stiller sounded simultaneously. 'Cause the first thing I remember seeing you when I was MTV half hour comedy-- - Yeah, that would be for that. - Must've been 91. - That's by 91. - I think you were doing material at 902.1 now. - Oh God, that was the young comedian. That might've been the-- - I mean the special-- - Tori Spelling's a little funny. - I hate, I hate thinking about standup I was doing. - 'Cause when you were-- - How culturally-- - Yeah, just that, but I mean, as anyone would, when you're say, you know, there's, thank God it wasn't a surveillance society back then. - But there's a problem picture, isn't it? - Yeah, there is footage of me doing standup at 19. - Yeah. - 22. There's things, I'm 51. You know what I mean? - Well, it's people watching new practice. It's like if you had a band and they had tapes of you doing guitar scales. You know what I mean? - Yeah. - I'm not comfortable. - You know what I mean? - I'm practicing. - I'm saying hacky stuff, it's painful. And also I'm saying stuff like, I cared about that then. You know, I would-- - Yeah, but I mean, that's, I remember that, that stood out to me seeing you on MTV half hour comedy hour and you were, I used to watch it all the time. And there were very few comedians that I went, yes, I like this. - Oh my gosh. - I was surprised. - And you were one of those people. And I remember one of the reasons I watched The Ben Stiller Show was because I recognized you and I recognized Bob Odenkirk from SNL. And that was, I was like, oh, this is gonna be a good show. It's got these two people that I've seen on things. - Oh, thanks. - And so it, you know, you never know who, what people are traveling with you on these things. - Right. - So you did Larry Sanders in that the same year? - Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Like this thing happened in '92, I didn't understand it. I don't, I still, both of them came out of standup. You know, Gary Shandling and Ben Stiller I knew through standup. And because they, they cast me without having to audition, I hadn't asked it. - Which is a very pure way to get a thing. - And I also got lucky with those two in that I got to, you know, Gary Shandling especially, he was like, this has to be very natural. If you wanna change the lines each time. - 'Cause we're casting you. - Right, right, but actually that wasn't me. I was asked to, that's another misunderstanding which had I been smarter, I wouldn't have taken roles where I was playing a similar character. I was, my character was based on a real person who had worked at David Letterman behind the scene 'cause it was sort of based on, behind the scenes, David Letterman. I was asked to be surly like Paula, the person I played, I guess was a real pill, but it that way. So I was asked to behave that way. That is not me, has never been me. Then, unfortunately, I wasn't smart and I was offered. Okay, do that in this. - You do that in this. - Do this and I'll do this. - Do this and do this and then what happened to this. - Now you're that person. - You're a typecast, classified, put it aside, blank, and then what you were asked to do, you did. That's my fault. - We're not a gene-girl or type type. Exactly, and it's like, okay, I'm not like that. - Yeah. - And that's what I'm talking about with access to opportunity. A lot of the doors that are closed to me is 'cause people think I do one thing. - Right. - And then I will say, please let me read for you, please. - I'm a general contractor, I can build this thing. - If I fail in the audition, that's fine. You know, I would very much like to audition for you because, of course, I wouldn't do that character. - It doesn't fit in this thing, yeah. - First, it makes no sense. I also, that's not how, yeah, I would do it the way that you wrote it and then hopefully try and bring something interesting to it in addition to that. - No, no, that's what I mean about access to opportunity. There are, there's-- - You can't convince them. - I cannot, they won't, whoever they are. I'm having difficulty and have had difficulty over the last few years, and again, don't misunderstand me. This sounds like I'm complaining, and I realize this is selective, and nobody's worried about just telling you what the reality is. - Your faith's not in your hands to a lot of, to a lot. - It really isn't. - And it's like if you're an interviewer for a job and you have a resume and they go, look, we see that when you were in high school, you worked at CalDore, department store. This is a financial institution, and we think, you did a great job at CalDore. It's really not CalDore. - Right. - And you're like, but I've done other, yeah, we're looking for someone who worked at this financial institution already. - Right, and then there's another thing where what's calculated is profitability. - Right. - And they, unfortunately, 'cause it is a business-- - And now all of that is just Twitter followers and they, they used to be, what was that number that called it, like the media number? - Well, there's a queue rating. - A queue rating, that's what I was thinking, yeah. - Which is a little bit different. They have a thing now where they say, well, you know, when my agent tries to beg on my behalf, can she come in and read for you? They'll say, when was the last time she was in a film and how much did that movie make? And it'd be unfortunate, like, well, she's done all these indie films. I have done movies that no one will ever see by, you know, bring your own genes from home type of thing. - But you probably really enjoyed the mood, like you did good movies. - I enjoyed the work. - Right. - They were no better, they were no better, most of them than any other crappy film. It's just that somebody's parents are broke down. - Right. - You know what I mean? - Yeah. - There's these people that just wanna be a director. I think for the sake of saying they're a director. - Yeah, oh, absolutely. - And they bankrupt their parents and they make terrible independent films that no one will ever see. - Yeah, just 'cause they're indie doesn't mean they're great. - Absolutely not. There is nothing but shitty indie films out there. That luckily we don't see. - Right, well we have a world now where everyone has access to the tools that used to have to be a very elite group of people to have access to, which is good because some people who never would have been able to make a thing can make some great stuff. But the majority of it is not good. - And that's some of the only avenues open to me to work. And what's good about that kind of situation though is everybody works really hard. Everybody does pull together on these and you meet some great people. So I like that. What I don't like is how hard everybody's working for how terrible it is and it'll never be seen. So it's almost like ants moving rocks around. But the silver line there is people are doing something. - They're working, the crew that you like is working. - And the crew, yeah, and they're trying to make it good. - It's sincere. - Yeah, it is all sincere, that's right. - If someone sincerely tries to make something and it's a failure or it's terrible, I have no problem with it. Then if somebody tries to make something that they think people want to see. - That happens too. - Which is how a lot of these things happen. I mean, this Mary Tyler Moore show that we have on the cover here was her making a show that she liked and it's not good. And it's her experience and it's the Mary Tyler Moore hour. And back to shows that are about the behind the scenes, which Larry Sanders did great. It was almost a proto version of that. She played a character named Mary who had a variety show. And the first half hour of the show was the behind the scenes single camera variety show, making the variety show, getting the guests writing and all the backstage stuff. The second half was the shot on video three camera variety show. - Gosh, why do I have no recollection of this? - 'Cause it was eight episodes. People hated it. And it was the first job Michael Keaton had on television. - I love Michael. - He was right after he was doing stand up and he played like the page at the studio. And Mary Tyler Moore was clearly like really into the show. She wanted to do stinging and all this stuff. She didn't get to do on TV. And she hired all these great actors from Vod Villain from the '40s to be on the show. And it's not good. It just isn't a great show. - And you know, I just read, I must have just read it 'cause I read a number this last year. I wrote Red Difficult Men, which is about the second Golden Age television, David. It's about Tom Fontana and Matthew Wiener. - All the show runner people that I'm not gonna do. - The show, the show runner people. And then I read a book about the making of Mary Tyler Moore, MTM. And there was interviews with James L. Brooks and the other writers of the time. And for some reason, this is not sticking out in my mind, but that must have been mentioned. - It was such a short lived thing. And it was supposed to be her big return. And she had another, she had a show called Mary in 1985. That also wasn't great, but was her making, I think this show, you know, obviously I don't know Mary Tyler Moore, but this show I think burned her because this was the show that she said, this is exactly what I wanna do. People like what I do, and this is me, you know, firing all cylinders. - Well she got ordinary. People is what helped when she went against type. - People did not think that she could do that. - And did, right. And that was one of those things where you hear, like I didn't wanna hire her, I didn't wanna hire her. - Well she was against type weirdly. People wouldn't believe this now, but when she was on Dick Van Dyke, because they were like, she's too young, she's too pretty. She can't be the funny wife. They wanted like a mumsie type, like let's laugh at her, kind of dowdy, you know, and they're like, no one's gonna believe, like think she's funny. - But actually it was Rob Reiner and Dick Van Dyke who went to bat for her. - Yeah, absolutely. Which is, so she's had nothing but success for to agree when she's gone against type. But Mary, her 85-show was her kind of, it's almost sad to watch because you're like, she's doing a show that she thinks people wanna see Mary Tyler Moore do. - Well it's like when Lucille Ball did a couple of others. - It's Lucille and here's Lucille, but she was also at her most terrifying at that point. - Yeah, she, you know, she's the best on Match Game. - Yeah. - 73, 74 when she's kind of drunk. - Yeah. - And then password when she's drunk. - Have you seen, she made a made for TV movies under her last role is called Stone Pillow. - Yes, Stone Pillow, I still, to this day I say, oh, he's sleeping around, Stone Pillow. I will say that. - Stone Pillow. - When I still see people who are, let's say, between jobs and between homes. - Yes, yes. - Shall we put it that way? - Yeah. - I always think. - Stone Pillow. - Stone Pillow. - No one, you're the only other person I've ever met that's seen Stone Pillow. Maybe Lucille Ball's finest. Did you ever see the look well? - Look what, oh my God. I even got to be at a live table read-through. - Oh, fantastic. - It was like going to heaven. - One of my favorite lines is that, in that as well. - Stone Pillow. - Adam West's playing, Adam West's playing. - Adam West's playing, Adam West's playing. I have it at home. Sidewalks, my pillow. - Yeah, and he just says it toss off as he's walking out. - Yeah, it's fantastic. I quote all of the, it sounds like I just do nothing but quote things about homeless people. - Look well is one of the greatest. - Look well is a show that, people that don't know, Colonel Bryan or Robert Smigo kind of got obsessed with Adam West in the early to mid 90s. It was born '97, '98, somewhere on there. - No, no, no, no. It's earlier than that. They did a table read-through of it. - I feel like it was around the same time as he fissioned in Jack, right? - No, that was after he fissioned in Jack. This was around 90, I think I was at that read-through in '92 or '92. - So it's pre-Colonel Bryan show? It's what Conan was still on S&F. - Yes, yeah. - Yeah, and so they wrote this pilot and it's sort of a parody show of like Colombo or Bana Check and these '70s cop shows that we all grew up with with Adam West as just a really inept actor who played a '70s cop. - Right, who still keeps trying to solve crimes. - Who still keeps trying to actually be a crime fighter because there's a really weird phenomenon in the '80s where you got all of these shows where people were a job and also fought crime. It was like just this bizarre thing. No one ever slept, they also fought crime and Midnight Collar is the one that I always referenced. And my favorite one ever is Baywatch Nights. - Do you remember Magruder and Loud? - Yes, yes, yes. There was a bunch of British ones too that tried to be American shows like Dempsey and Make Peace. - Oh, speaking, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry audience, but have you heard of a British action series called The Professionals? - Yes, '70s. - I've got the box set of-- - Yeah, you're nicked. - Oh my God, put your pants on, you're nicked. - This is the best, it is the best war show. - Stephanie's tough guy. - And then now, that actor, one of the actors, Doyle, I believe, is wonderful on George Gently on PBS. - Did you see Life on Mars? - Yes. - That was basically them doing like a meta version of The Professionals. It was like, what if a modern cop got dropped into The Professionals? - Right, but Life on Mars was far better. - Oh yeah. - But the American version was the worst. - Oh, when they made it all sci-fi at the end. I'm fucking blow something. First of all, why redo it? It was great. - Well, they very rarely made good versions of UK shows. Do you ever see The Young Ones' US pilot? - No, I haven't. - Awful. Young Ones is maybe one of my favorite shows of all time. - I love it, but it doesn't hold up as I look at it. - It's very '80s. - It's very '80s. - It's not even that, it's just not as funny as I felt like I thought it was when I was a kid, but I respect it, although I do love the quiz bolt one still has much. - Oh, yes, Bambi is that episode. - When the guy who stays his foot through the box. - Yes, yeah. - Love that one. - He loses his head on the way over there. I mean, that show was just, that blew my mind as a kid 'cause I couldn't believe they made that show. But they did a US remake and the only person from the UK cast that they held onto was Nigel Planar as Neil, who's maybe the least, I love him when the show was the least dynamic person on that show. They made a US version of Faulty Towers with B Arthur in the Basel Faulty Roll. - Although that sounds like it could've worked. - Could've worked, they fucked it up big time. So then they tried to do it again. And this time they go, the problem here is the Basel Faulty character. So they made a version of Faulty Towers as a pilot with no Basel Faulty just about a hotel. It's one of the worst things I've ever seen. - Hot-ail Baltimore, they just keep trying to remake I'm Alan Partridge too, which can't be done. - It's a very British character. - Well also, just show it here. Steve Coogan is just a genius, just absolutely. And that's what I've disappointed with Happy-ish. - Yeah. - He's much better than the show is actually. - I like Saxondale. - Saxondale's fantastic. - 'Cause it's tragic. - There's a sadness to everything he does. And you can't do that with comedies here. It's changing, I think. - You can, you can. - People just won't like it. - But it's just that it's very, I love Saxondale, but I gotta admit, I prefer watching on Alan Partridge. - It's easier to laugh at Alan Partridge 'cause you don't like him. Saxondale, you feel bad for him. He's a good guy. - He's complex, but the work. I mean, when you look at the work, Steve Coogan to me is like taking a master class. Oh yeah, I mean, he's great in everything. - And I don't mean just lag off Happy-ish, but I feel like the show's not up to him. - Yeah. - You know what I mean, like up to where, I feel like there's something about it that's good. I see these moments that are very good in it, and then I see moments that are just two mainstream TV for E. - You were on Ideal. - Yes, Ideal. - Good enough show, right? - How'd you know that? - I had a big UK cardigan. - 'Cause I was gonna say they made an American version of that one. - Did they? - Terrible, 'cause Johnny Vegas is just a book. - No, they made it with a tractive of young people. - That's not the show. That's not the show. - Boy, I loved being on Ideal, and when that got canceled, I can't tell you, I was not only a great to work in for the BBC, for BBC Three especially. - Did you ever see Graham Duff's Dr. Terrible's House of Horrible he did with Steve Coogan? - I probably have because I know Dr. Terrible's House of Horrible. I have the Coogan box set to do that thing. - You would enjoy it. - And I love Coogan's run. - Yeah. So this is September, 1978. - Yes. - You're 14 years old, where we started with you. - Yes, or this week. - This week, you're turning 14. - I'm turning 14. - For coming a woman. - Yes, but I was a bit of a, I was a young 14, put it that way. - Two siblings? - I do. - Are you like in the middle way? - I am, there is three and then two more after, but different. - Did you have to negotiate what you would watch before you got this TV in your room? - Yes. - Okay. So we were only allowed to watch a certain amount on school nights, so we had to pick. - Was it very kept track of? - Yes. - So you really had to value that time. - Yes. - And we were talking before we recorded, too, about like when you go through and you circle the things, when your time is limited. - Yeah. - I think you hang onto these shows for a lot longer. And when I talk to people our age, you know, we have this real passion for these shows. We watched as kids. And younger people don't have that now that I've encountered because they can watch whatever they want, whenever they want, on their phone or whatever. And the access, which is amazing, it's kind of not appreciated. - But then there's that passion that exists for shows like Grey's Anatomy, where when Patrick Dempsey's character gets-- - Keepers are still on. - I know it's a shock. But Patrick Dempsey's character gets taken off the show and there's this shoe and cry. There is that passion there still. - But it's not the-- - Not for shows, it's just different. - Yeah, it's a different group. I mean, it's not all people, 'cause there's more choices now. I mean, when there was a major change in a cast on a show on a network show and we were growing up, everybody knew about it. People would talk about it who'd never even seen the show. - Right, it was also like a Nash, like when McLean Stevenson's character was very callously killed. - Yes. - And I, that impacted me as a child in a way I can't describe to you. I did not expect it. - Yeah. - I wasn't working, and also on "All in the Family" when Edith is sexually assaulted. I was absolutely ill-prepared to process that information and it seemed terribly out of place. And "The McLean Stevenson" was sheer mean-spiritedness. There's no reason to have, but it had this dramatic impact-- - Absolutely. - On the people watching it, 'cause it was unusual. And then our good times-- - It's a trust thing, yeah. - John Amos' character was killed, again, for mean-spirited reasons. - He did not get along with that. - That's unnecessary. - Yeah. Well, I always, the story I told before, I love Valerie Harper, speaking of, you know-- - Yeah, me too. - Love her, and she was in the Hogan family, which is Valerie, her show. She was her show, she was the producer of Valerie. She goes, "Look, I want some more money than the producer." They killed her on the show, but as a kid, I think I was 10 years old. I tune in, I'm gonna watch Valerie. All of a sudden, Sandy Duncan, I'm like, "Where's Valerie?" Minute into the show, they don't mention it, and then Bateman goes, "Things haven't been the same since Mom died in the car crash." And I'm like, "What the hell has happened?" - That's just purely the egos and the pettiness of a handful of networked people who don't care how the viewer-- - And the viewer suffers. - They don't think about it. - The viewer, now I was older than that than I didn't watch Valerie's family, but I know about it. - I would not have expected you to. - And I remember that happened. - Yeah. - But when such things happen where they callously do that, that is a network executive flexing their muscle over that particular actor, much to the chagrin of the viewing audience. - They don't realize the connection people have. - They don't care, they don't watch it. I'll tell you another secret about this now. - Now I'm watching it. - Nonsense. They do not watch these shows. - Listing as a kid too, there's not as many shows that are long-running anymore, scripted shows. You have SNL and news and stuff. So Grey's and I, everything aren't for like 10 seasons, it's crazy. And so super natural have been on like 12 seasons, but when we were growing up, if you had watched the show, if you're 10 years old and you've watched a show for five or six years, that's your whole life. You've known this show forever, and when they kill a character, it means something. - It means something. - You've lost a person you know. - And even if you haven't, if you're a kid, just say from a child's perspective, even if it hasn't been 10 years, say a child I don't watch one season of. - That's a lot of time. - That's a lot of time. That's something strange to them, that things have been different since mom died. But to the person who made the decision to do that, it could have been the head writer, it could have been-- - They don't think about impact. - They do not care. - To them, it's like firing a guy at Denny's. - But oh, they just want to send a message to that one guy. And so that's that, and everybody else can go to help. - Yeah, that's the nature of that's business. - I met her at a local TV station I was working at, and I was like her, you know, I was a very PA basically. Super nice, we talked about freebie and the bean, and some city, and-- - Freebie and food. San Pedro Beach, but-- - Yes, best car chase ever. And you know, she's super nice and we're there all day, and then, you know, we're waiting for something at the end of the day, and I start talking about Valerie's family, and inadvertently, I just start welling up, like a maniac, 'cause I didn't realize it, like a factory that much, and she just like hugged me, and it was the single most embarrassing thing that's ever happened to me in my entire life. I was like, what a sweet lady, and what a goo, like I'm just like, ah! - I'm sure she thought it was a very sweet moment too. - It's such a weird thing that you don't realize has this, this, that you hold with you sometimes. - Well, and also they have the hold on you for things you don't even fully understand. - Right, right. - You know, you can't quite put your finger on. - And I wonder if people still have that connection with these shared experiences, so-- - I'm sure they do, we just, how would we know? - Exactly, and that's probably a good thing. - So here we are, I'm going through, I'm grabbing the 28. - Grab the 28th, so on your birthday. - Yes. - What would you do when a typical birthday, well it was like a thing, it would be like, it's your nature now. - I can tell you, I can tell you what, I got to pick for dinner, we, you know, and I would always ask for macaroni cheese with cut up hot dogs, 'cause my mom made excellent macaroni cheese with cut up hot dogs. - That's a good, that's, my grandfather used to make it, but he put peas in it. - I'll take it, I love peas. - I'd have that now, but at the time it ruined it. - Oh, I love peas. - Yeah. - Never thought of that. We've put some frozen peas in there. - And joy peas. - Yeah. - And then for dessert, we would get a carvel. - Nice, fudgy the whale? - No, that's, why would you get fudgy the whale for your birthday? No, it would just be the vanilla with just a round cake with the crushed up cookie. - Yeah, I would insist on a cookie puss. - Cookie, opus. - Cookie opus, and then the Father's Day tie cake that was just cookie puss upside down. - What's the same, it's the same. - Same mole. - Trade, yeah. - Yeah, they just have the one mole. - When I was in 11th grade, for some reason, biology class had brought up cookie puss, and kids thought I was making it up, and it was a dirty thing. - Why? - I have no idea. Carvels had kind of fallen out of favor. I was like, "No, cookie puss, it's great." - Really? - Yeah. - You've got to be kidding. 'Cause that was a huge, and it was also like a joke. - Commercials. - Yeah. - And there's commercials. - So I think we're like, "That's not a real thing." And so the teacher filed this away. This is on a Friday. Monday we come into class, and this teacher, this woman, Ms. Easton, she actually died this year. It was very nice. And I was like a weird kid, and all the kids hated. She might hang out in the teacher's lounge, she, we come into class, she's like, "People have a very special announcement for everybody. "This weekend, they stopped at a carvel, and I picked up a cookie puss." And she's like, "And you can all have a piece if you apologize to Ken." And so kids are going to be like, "So we can." - I just find that. - It was very weird. - I find that those kids were taking a false opposition, just to be bullies. - It's quite possible. - There's no way that not one other kid in that class knew about it. - Where was their youth, no cookie puss? - I just, I find that, I feel like they were just being coy with you. - I think they were cookie puss deniers. - I think there was some, yeah, much like the Armenian genocide. - Exactly. - Okay, so here we are, Thursday, September 28th, 1978. - Who you must see TV? - Okay, so this is the morning, so let's go. Oh, the reruns of Partridge Family on in the morning, okay, but we'll go into Tic-Tac-Toe. - Tic-Tac-Toe was fantastic. - We're going to go to after school, where after school, although I did extracurriculars, sometimes home. So maybe I should start with nighttime when I had to project here. - After the homework. - Colonel Flag. Colonel Flag from Mash, hilarious. - Did you watch Mash all the time? - I did watch. And Colonel Flag being a particular favorite. - Did you see how much you meant he never really got into? - No, all of the Gary Marshall shows never really did much for me. - Well, some did, you know, happy days, the first season, fantastic. - But that's a totally different show. - It's a different show on film. - I told people, I was waiting for-- - With Rock Around the Clock at the time. - Yeah, and then it became a three-camera sitcom. - That people, it wasn't even in the '50s anymore. - Right, and well, it was okay for like, see, up to about season two or three. And then Chuck, you know, they had two different Chucks, and then no Chuck. - Yeah, they never explained it. - Never explained it. Be that as it may. What's happening, I used to watch. - Yeah, do you watch What's Happening Now? - Yes, but not regular, but I just would say it. Okay, so Barney Miller. - Barney Miller's like all time favorite sitcom, and I think that anyone who wants to write TV should have to watch Barney Miller. - Okay, he said you heard of your folks. - 'Cause it's just people in a room talking, it's a pure writer's show. - That's very good. All right, so let's start eight o'clock Waltons. - You did watch the Waltons. - I did, not all that, it depends on what the-- - Yeah, that's the good night, John Boy. - But it depends on what season you were into. Okay, so this is Jim Bob's infatuation with the Baldwin sister's house guest. I've set some on the mountain. The girl was in a convent and is trying to decide whether to return. Now, I don't know exactly what you this would be. '78, but I do remember watching the Christmas special with Patricia Neal all the time. - Yes, yes. - This, I probably wouldn't have watched the Waltons that night, and I wouldn't have watched Project UFO. - Have you ever met, have you met nuns frequently in your life? - Well, at Providence College, yes. - Well, yeah, okay. - I was taught by Dominican Fairs and nuns. - Aside from that four years, they come up a lot in TV plots for the number of times I've actually encountered a nun. So people go to convents, nuns who are like, I don't think I want to be a nun. Like, the nuns in the Amish are in way more TV shows than-- - Well, it depends on where you live, because a lot of people are exposed to, depending on their educational background. - True, and like a-- - Catholicism and also, generationally speaking. - True. - And then if you live in Pennsylvania, Dutch country, you will see Amish. How many bank heist films are? How many bank rockers? - Well, Boston, we do have a lot of those. - That's a coincidence, though, that's never-- - Really, it's usually Amish. - Okay, family, for sure. - Is it the first show of the gay character? - Family was a really, ahead of its time, interesting, dramatic-- - It was like-- - Unhappy-- - Yeah. - --on we producing ours. - It was not a wish fulfillment show. - I loved it, I loved Chrissy Minickal. Now, by the time this is '78, they've got Quinn Cummings, who I like very much, but this shows you that the show was dipping. - Yeah. - Although I love Quinn Cummings, and she's wonderful, and the goodbye girl. But this is when this show was flailing. - Yeah. - But the show intrigued me, because it showed a portrait of a type of family that seemed as sad as many of the families that I can identify with seemed, but in a quiet way. - Yeah. - You weren't laughing at them, or like, I always-- - There's nothing to laugh at in the family. - No. I equate this with comedies, because like Roseanne to me is the blue-collar family with the gallows humor that I identify with the most. And they might lose their house, they lost their business, horrible things happen, and that show seems very natural. And then you look at Mary with Children, which I call a poverty minstrel show or poor face, because you're like, "We're going to carve up this line, I'm going to be in trouble." And you're laughing at them. And so a show like Family, which is sort of a realistic drama about a family, instead of a Dallas, you know, type so-- - Right, it had a quality like the ice storm, the movie "The Ice Storm," which is certainly much later, but it captures a type of middle class-- - Tri-state, yeah. - --that is not usual for television then or now. - Yeah. - And this is another thing about my mother that stood out, and I think why family stands out for me, not just because of Chrissy McNichol. - Right. - Who I loved on Apple's way. - And Little Darlings, one of the creepiest movies of all the yes. - Okay, my mom responded very much. Also, I would notice her responding to the show "Family," because of the realities of-- there's certain things that just don't work out for-- - Right, as an adult. - I'm in no way saying-- I'm saying it's just, just-- I'm sure everyone can identify with this, but there are times where say, marriages are not working that great, or what's going on with your children is not that great. - Human things. - These human things that happen to everybody. They happened also in my family, and there's something about the sadness that Sated Thompson portrayed that reached my mother. - It's a catharsis, too. - It was a catharsis. - You're seeing your life on TV in a non-exploitive way. - And in a way that I don't think my mother could have articulated it. And that also Sated Thompson's character, I don't think could articulate. And also to look at it, it's like, what are they complaining about? Look at that nice house. - And probably someone from your mother's generation, 'cause I don't think parents talk to kids about the adult things that were going on. - Not at all. And so it's an interesting way to sort of expose you to this, what they're going to do. - Well, my parents were 19. It was 1958. - Yeah. - They were 19 when they had my brother, and they got married. - Which is crazy, now, if you think of a 19-year-old. - Well, actually, there probably is lots of 19-year-olds just not in the circles that you and I tend to travel. I don't mean that in a class. - I was thinking of myself when I was 19. - Oh, no way. - No way. - No way. - I still don't want to be married, but be that as it may. It wasn't unusual, and it was not unusual in 1958. But I think what happens is, you know, and then cut to more kids and more kids. And my mom was a secretary, and while she was a very good parent, both my parents committed. They loved us and did everything they could to, now, this is what it is. - Yeah. - They weren't blaming, like, I got stuck with this burden. - No, no, no. - It's not going to happen? We get these kids to the best thing we can do. - Exactly, and one of my siblings had a lot of problems, neurological problems. Just what I'm saying is-- - Made things difficult. - Made things difficult. Something about that show, and Sadie Thompson's depression, I think, spoke to my mother. Now, I don't know this for sure. I never discussed it with her. - You would watch it with your mom and watch her watch it. - Yes, watch her watch it, and I think that's why that show is made. - That's how you learned about your parents, then. - Yeah. - How they were, like, back to the last thing. - When they laughed, yeah, exactly. - And when they were sad, you pick up on these things and go, "What is it about this?" - That's right. You're right. - And especially with your mom being gone, you probably could rewatch this show and feel like you're kind of-- - And this was around the time when some of the last-- - Right. - She was kind of getting into her mindset without being able to talk to her, which is interesting. - And here we are moving on, moving on, because that was pretty heavy. - No, no, no, no, no, no, I brought it up. And also, I'm not one of those people like, "Oh, see, we can't talk about it." - Yeah. - It's just what happens. It's just what happens, young people pass away and whatever. - That's the interesting thing about pop culture, too, is that you're-- back to, you know, you're just doing a job and you fire somebody, you know what I mean? In fact, it becomes part of people's lives with television because it comes into their home. And it's a shared experience that they have with their family. And so they attach these things to it. You could never possibly imagine. - Right. - And so that's why, you know, if people dismiss the work they did, if it means something to anybody, it's kind of like they're happy why they tell them. - Right, exactly. That is, because there is sometimes where people say, "Oh, I loved this thing." And I'm like, "Oh, should I say how much I thought it was horrible? Why? Why would you get it?" - Yeah, it's hard. - Soap now, so I would watch Intermittently. - Right. - Barnaby Jones, I didn't, but I'm certainly very well aware. - Not a huge Barnaby Jones guy. - Web, I did not, or W.E.B. - Yeah. - Did not, family. - Yep, family verbatim. - Okay. Gosh, now we're at 10.30, so that I would have to be in bed. But I may have had the little set in my room at this point, so if I was going to sneak, which I would do occasionally, Twilight Zone here, it says here on The Affiliate. Also, late night, I would watch Johnny Carson sometimes. Definitely in the summer, we were allowed to do that sometimes. - Yeah, which was such a, again, meant so much more. - Right. - Because you're like, "I never get to do this, so I'm going to do it." - And we could put our sleeping bags down on that. I loved that when I was sleeping bags. - I love the sleeping bags. - The sleeping bags. - The sleeping bags from the TV, I will admit this. People who know me would not be shocked by this. But if I see a sleeping bag on clearance, I'll buy it. And sometimes in the winter, we'll just sit on the floor and watch the sleeping bags. - Oh, we do sit me and Pete. We, the sleeping bags, we love it. - It's a real treat. I don't know what it is. You're like, "I'm enjoying this so much more." - There was a while, this is many years ago. This is probably when I was like 30, 34. I bought a tent and sleeping bags in my apartment. - It's just kind of fun. - And I thought it would be fun. Though an novelty wore off after well, but I was like, you know what? This is going to be fun for my boyfriend and I. It's a tent and we have two sleeping bags. We're going to watch TV. - Know something about that. I don't know what it is. Yeah. - And in the winter especially. - Yeah. It's just you're cooning and cozy. - Yeah. Okay. So in summation, wrapping things up, I think I would pretty much be asleep by now. If I could have made it through Johnny Carson. - Yeah. Which could be difficult sometimes. - Yeah. I think I'd be asleep. - Final question for you then. Because I could talk about STTV for hours and hours and hours. I think it's such an underrated. - It is wonderful. - What is your, maybe difficult. What is your all time favorite STTV sketch that stands out when you think of like your favorite STTV things? - I love, oh man, it is hard. - It's tough. - Because there was long running narratives. - Well this shows a world building show. - Yeah. - It pays off if you watch for one of them. - I of course love Bobby Bitman. - Yeah. - I love when Skip Bitman came on. And the giant real to real tape order to tape his stand upset. And I love when Bobby Bitman keeps getting interrupted by Bob Hope. And he's got the giant phone. - How you doing? - They're doing. - Napoleon Knappy. And then Bob Hope comes in. I love Lola Heatherton. It's hard to pick sketches because they leave. - So the real show busy stuff seems to be the stuff that appeals to you. - Excuse me. I love Martin Short and Eugene Levy as two obnoxious lawyers. - Yes. - Like what? I'm not getting there yelling in the street and gesturing. - Yeah. - Martin Short is so bizarre and more than that. - San Francisco did you drive and did you flow? - The way that show used grotesque characters was just unbelievable. - Yep, Rick Moran is kind of, it's just amazing. The people need to know more about SCT. I love it so much and it's such a great, great, great show. - And they also incorporated bands, sometimes the tubes, Southside Johnny. - Future musicians. - Yeah. - Roy Orbison. - Roy Orbison, that's right. - The Plasmatics. - And sometimes you could see how much fun the bands were having. - Yeah, because they would write them in. - Yeah, yeah, they'd be sitting in the boat fishing with them. - The one that comes to mind the most is the Hollin' Oats and Chariots of Eggs. - Chariots of Eggs. - And they are so game for it. - I know. - And if you compare it to SNL, it's a way that they use the musicians that they get stuck within such an amazing way. - Chariots of Eggs. - Mel's rock pile. - Mel's rock pile, I'm rockin' Mel's in the dance. And it wasn't essentially that funny, but there's just somethin' funny about that particular sketch. But the Mel's rock pile wasn't like a big belly laugh at me, but it's very funny. There's a number of things that are just very good, even if they're not like laugh out loud, funny, but they're just very good. - They're enjoyable, they're like a time release. It's... - Jerry Lewis live on The Shandalise. - Yes, yes. - That's one of the most brilliant things I've ever seen. And Tender fella went... - Tender, yeah, Tender fella. - When he's Tender felt when he used Jerry Lewis in Tender Mercies. Unbelievable. - It's so smart and weird. And Andrew Martin, it's so funny that I'm taking my own head. Do you remember that one? - I'm taking my own head, screwing it on straight, and no guy is gonna tell me it isn't. Libby Wolfson. - Libby Wolfson. She has that conversation with Rick Moranis. She's like, "What do you smell?" - C'mon, Rhett. - Did you have both of us? - Yeah. - You love that too. - I love that too. - You know? And the politician. You got the Kennedy looks. - Remember when she was running "Melon Vote," the whole episode? - Delivered Rashi. - Yes, yes, yes. - That whole episode "Melon Vote" is one of my all-time favorites. - There's a sketch in that episode. - And "Brock line of hand." - "Brock line of hand." Kids, what's the problem? - Baby Baha'i. - And we'll go all night, so I'll share this last one. In the election episode, there's a fake ad. And it's Joe Flary. And he's like, "I will drive you home." - Okay. - And he goes, "If you're drinking, you call me. "I will drive you home. "I will not stop to pick up women. "I will not." And then he goes, "I will find my own way home. "Don't worry about me." - And then one time he mentions Vic Hedges, too. - Yes, he saved my life. - Yeah, yeah. - Vic Hedges saved my life. Is this thing that goes for? Oh, and there's a Joe Flary. There's like a dating game show thing. And he's putting a real sleaze. And he goes, "I'll pick her up at four and take her home at 12. "And what happens in between is my business." - I'm like, "I don't remember that little piece, "but I do remember, I will drive you home." - I will drive you home. - Melon Vote is one of the strongest, I would say, straight through. And the Brock line hand. - Brock line has preteen world. - Preteen worlds with, oh my god. - It's great. We should just go watch like S-E-T-V for two months. - But Brock line hand with his wife. - Yeah, yeah. - And he's wandering through the woods. - In a fur coat. - Yeah, yeah. (laughing) - Love it. - Gene, thank you so much for doing this show. It's been great to talk to you. - Thank you, and I'm sorry I have a chest issue. - But you're coughing into the mic. - Gene's a big fan of "Dio Holiday." - I love "Dio Holiday." - That I get the same TB he had. - Oh, yeah, I do have tuberculosis, but it's not contagious as far as I know. - Nice. - Oh, no, I don't have that. - Okay, 'cause that's bad. - The bloody flux. - Oh, fine. - Yeah, that's fine. - Roman. - Yes. - It's a, I like to get an ancient Roman-style disease, the bloody flux. - Well, I enjoyed the Greek version before that. - Speaking of Rome. - Yes. - That HBO series for two seasons was one of my all-time favorites. - Did you see me worth watching? - Oh, my God. - I'll watch it. - I love Rome on HBO. - Okay. - It couldn't continue. It was too costly. They didn't have enough viewers, but I am a huge fan of any all things, historical, of all the Caesars. - Okay. - But this particular Caesars being the most famous were the Ides of March. Spoiler alert, Brutus killed Caesars. - Oh, my God. - Still watch it, though. - Yeah. - Still watch it, even though I just told you it was Brutus. - You know it's Brutus. - It was Brutus. - It's the way he does it. But yeah, was it a knife in the center? I don't know. - I don't know. - I don't know who were his co-conspirators. - I didn't say which Brutus. - I don't know. Did Cicero know anything? He said he didn't. - We'll never know. - Yeah. So I'm not going to give the whole game away. Cicero know. - Yeah. - Anyway, Rome, HBO. - Fantastic. - In the words of the B-52s, everybody. Rome, if you want to. Thank you so much. - Thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - There you go. Jeanine Grafalo, actress, comedian. All around, great person. I really like talking to Jeanine. As I said, I hope you enjoyed listening to it. I enjoyed it so much. I neglected to discuss some of my absolute favorite things that she has done. Like the fantastic role she played on The Adventures of Pete and Pete. Her work on Delocated. Just a lot of great stuff. But maybe I'll convince her again some point to sit down and talk to me about TV. And I can cover those topics then. As always, you can email me at tvguidenscounselor@gmail.com or at kannadikenread.com. Go to the Facebook page @TVguidens on Twitter. Subscribe to the show. I put out a new episode every Wednesday, but I may have an episode on another day. You never know. So subscribe so you won't miss episodes. And if you like the show, please, please, please, rate, review the show. It helps us get up the iTunes charts. It helps get the word out about the show. And I just want people to listen. That's all I want. That's all I'm asking. That's it. And we'll see you again Wednesday for a brand new episode of TV guidance console. That is unusual to picture in that contest. Nobody needs to see themselves in HD. I guess was a real pill. What did that one enjoy? Peace. Yeah.
