"Wait. You have a TV?" "No. I don't like to read the TV guide. Read the TV guide. You don't need a TV." Hello and welcome to TV guidance counselor. It is Wednesday which means it's time for a brand new episode. As always, I am Ken Reed. I am your TV guidance counselor and I am here to talk to you and my guest about classic television. My guest this week is Mr. Kevin Allison. You may know Kevin from the risk podcast. At podcast, I am somewhat biased towards since I've appeared on it several times. Kevin's been incredibly nice to me having me on this show a bunch of times and I always like talking to Kevin. You may also know Kevin from the state MTV's sketch comedy show from the 90s. My Colleen Black was also on that show who has also been on this show. I'm slowly collecting them all. The state are like my Pokemon. That sounds a little creepy. That's not actually true. If you're tuning in to this show for the first time because of my excellent guest this week, the premise of this show is that I own every issue of TV guide. Somebody picks a classic issue of TV guide. They go through it. They write down what they would have watched that week from 8 to 10 o'clock in prime time and then they hand me the TV guide. They have their list and we talk about it. I do no research. It's only what's already in my tiny little crammed brain and it's a lot of fun. I always enjoy talking to people during this show and this was no exception. Kevin, great guy. So I think you'll enjoy it very much. Please sit back, relax and listen to this week's episode of TV Guide and Counselor with my guest, Kevin Allison. Mr. Kevin Allison. Hello. Hello. Thank you so much for trekking out here to the homestead. Oh, it's a pleasure to be here. It's a bit like the Adam's family house I've been told. I actually love it. I used to have an apartment that was this filled with crazy stuff, crazy colorful stuff and everyone thought that I was insane that I might murder them. Yeah, no, I get that as well. I get that as well. It's sort of a lifelong effort to convert my house into Peewee's Playhouse. Yeah, there you go. You're doing good. It's sort of in transition from a respectful colonial era home into a fantastical cartoonish playhouse. Museum, too. Yeah. So you would have said before when I'd ask you about doing the show, you said I stopped watching TV in 1983. Well, you know what it was, was that I went to a Jesuit high school, Saint Xavier High School in Cincinnati and was immediately overwhelmed by how much homework there was. He just didn't have time. Yeah, all of a sudden just really cut down on that. And I don't know. I guess I developed a sort of a moral compass idea of, oh, television is a waste of time. Was that something your parents kind of pushed her? I don't know. I don't know where I got that idea actually. You know, another part of it might be that I became so fascinated by film and by film with, you know, a capital F as like an art for the French New Age. Yeah, I discovered Citizen Kane. I actually discovered Citizen Kane when I was nine. TV. Yeah, what it was was that I was home alone. One, you know, but my parents were going to leave me alone. I was nine years old. So this would have been 79, which is the same year that we're looking at the TV guide for. And my dad said, as they were leaving, you know, because I had four brothers and sisters, so it was very rare for me to be home alone. Were they all older than you? I was the fourth of five. Okay. Yeah. So I don't know where my little sister was, but they were leaving me home alone. And my dad was like, Oh, there's a really good movie on PBS tonight. You should check it out. But he didn't say, Oh, there's a movie that is reputed to be maybe the greatest ever made. So I fell asleep in front of the TV, who's one of those little black and white TVs. And I remember, you know, it starts like a horror movie. It starts with a horror movie. And it's filmed like a horror movie because he gets all that sort of noirish language that he uses in that movie. And what I did, I woke up startled to the opening chords. And I had never seen a movie that plays with all sorts of things. It plays with various genres. It plays with time points of view. Yeah. It's a rush of money. Yeah. So I had never seen a movie do all this before. And at the end, there's this big spoiler alert. There's a big reveal at the end where the camera all of a sudden takes a completely different point of view of its own and reveals something to you. And I found that so horrifying for some reason. That it sort of pulled the rug out from under you. Yeah. That and the fact that the fact that Rosebud ended up being a sled was just like, I was like, what? What'd you get with this? No, I did not I did not understand like Freudian symbolism or anything at that point. So I was just like, age nine Kevin, you're very, very far behind all the develop. You had some sort of developmental issue clearly, if you didn't understand Freudian psychology, age nine. So I was I literally quiet. I was so frustrated just out of sheer like frustration and bewilderment and turned the lights on and found that I had been twiddling in my fingers the entire time I was watching the movie. Yeah. A box of Rosebud matches. Really? That's quite a weird coincidence. Also, I'm mostly shocked that a nine year old just had matches. You just always carry matches. Like your dad was like, Kevin, two things before to go on. We want you to hang on to these matches just in case and Citizen Kane is on. Can you imagine a nine year old now? Because that although I'm sort of being facetious that that's not that unusual a story for a nine year old to watch something like Citizen Kane on television when we were growing up. Sure. And all of these great movies were on television frequently. And I remember, you know, it's not quite the same thing, but I remember around that age first seeing Knight of living dead on television. Oh, he's similar vibe weirdly and a similar twist ending and having sort of a similar experience. And the fact that you were sort of jarred awake by it. Yeah. And you're sort of probably in like a half a sleep dream state. What has happened? You know, probably like a little more open to whatever was happening in that movie. Yeah. Is insane to think of now with like a nine year old now. Like I don't think a nine year old would sit and watch a black and white movie or Citizen Kane. It's hard to say. I mean, yeah, I guess that you're right. I love. I always want to give kids the benefit of the doubt. You know what I mean? Because like it always frustrates me a little bit when I hear parents saying, Oh, just sit him down, he'll watch anything as opposed to no, no, you know, a kid should have some idea of quality. Or like curated a little bit. Oh, yeah. Have his time show him something good. Just be like, he's a more just just wag your keys in front of his face for an hour. Absolutely. I, you know, what happened after Citizen Kane was that I got Leonard Moulton's book. Yeah. And so I became fascinated in movies. And I guess I became a little bit of huiti to I also got this book called understanding movies, which was actually a college tax. No, no, it was a G. G.A. Medi. Okay. Yeah. And so I started really getting into this idea that movies are an art form, right, which I guess had never occurred to me. Yeah. Well, although, although really, it wasn't until the 70s. Yeah. That that was sort of looked at as like a legitimate viewpoint. Yeah, where where people were being taught. Yeah, in schools and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so yeah, so at that point, if I was watching TV, it was specifically like I was hunting down movies. And I do remember being, I think 11, 11 when I saw that the boys in the band was going to be on at like two o'clock in the morning on channel night, because Cincinnati Ohio very, very at least at that time, very, very conservative city, right, very Catholic. I was raised very Catholic knew I was gay all throughout my childhood. We're in the suburbs are in the city proper. I was in the west side of Cincinnati, the, you know, kind of more working class side of the tracks. And and I do remember staying up till two o'clock in the morning to watch the boys in the band. And if you don't know, it's the it's like the first major Hollywood movie to be about specifically about gay men who know their gay and are talking about being gay directed by William Friedgen, who I think this was before he did the exorcist and before cruising. Yeah. What's the thing? He was really. He was in that stuff. Yeah, yeah. Getting freaking into gay stuff. But also before French connection. Right. But anyway, boys in the band, I remember being fascinated and horrified. Like it was so many feelings all at once. Was it the first time you had seen like gay as a thing? Because you say you knew you were gay forever. Did you know that that's what it was? Oh, I knew well, I didn't know of gayness as a thing that men got together and compared notes on and had jokes about, you know what I mean? Like normal people do with like, you know, they're just like, no, any, any normal person talking about the thing that they do. Right. I mean, I had a, I had a sense of it. But the boys in the band was the first time that I could see this is a sort of a cultural way of being. It's sort of an okay thing. Well, it's actually what's horrible for a long time. It was it was hated by the gay community. Really? Because it's seen there's so much self-loathing presented in it. There's so many catty jokes about hating oneself. But now it's looked back on as being like, no, that's a very big deal. And that was a very real thing. Probably what those people felt in the mid-70s. Like, that's how it was, you know, which is, which is pretty interesting as well. And I, I wonder if, so I guess what I'm getting at is that you sort of just discovered these things because of television. They were just sort of there. Oh, absolutely. And as a kid, you wouldn't have had access to them otherwise. No. These very heady sort of things. And a lot of times you just sort of stumbled on them. Yeah. And so it was a way for you to get an education sort of without having to have somebody be your guy. Oh, absolutely. Like one of the, a lot of the, a lot of my very favorite moments from my entire life as someone who considers himself an artist of words and who loves art of all kinds is those moments that I have stumbled upon something and have not, and citizen again, there was a perfect example of that. I prefer not to know what a movie or a TV show is about before. I love those. Like, like, I was just on the air the other day with, um, uh, what's her name? Mary Lou Hannah. Yeah. And made the mistake of referring to, uh, Andy Kaufman without acknowledging. But you know, I didn't say Andy Kaufman, your old friend, and she got a look in her eyes. And you also weren't like, this guy, I don't know if you've heard him this guy. I wasn't quite like that. But, but she kind of was like, do you know who you're talking to? Yeah. And I, I wish I had rectified it and said, Oh my gosh, I remember seeing the first episode of taxi when it first aired with my dad who was like, this is a really well-written show. Right. Yeah. Um, I remember seeing the first episode of the Dukes of Hazard. And I mean, not, not that that was a, which is sort of like the citizen cane of television, I think, when you find out the whole time that the generally is a sled, it's actually a sled. But it, but so you're watching this stuff with your dad and he sort of, um, he's sort of your cultural professor to a degree by sort of giving you an indicator of signs of quality. Oh, absolutely. My dad was a huge fan of two things all the time when I was a kid. Football, which I had absolute, I've never had a single bit of interest in any sport whatsoever. Me either. And the other was opera. And so my two older brothers, he was like, okay, these two, I can take to the football games. Right. And me, he just sensed this kid I can take to the opera. Right. So he would take me to the opera, which was freaking fascinating. Oh, yeah, six, seven year old, larger than life. Yeah. And so yeah, that transferred over into television and stuff like that too, of him being like, Oh, here's an Alfred Hitchcock. This is a really good movie. You were like his cultural son. Like the one who he's like, let's talk about art. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He would buy me symphonies, you know, records and stuff like that. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of amazing. Like, that's what a great experience to have where it was sort of both. He was able to sort of provide different things for the different members of his family. Yeah. And there is also, you know, I totally sympathize when people say, Oh, it would have been when people are like, Oh, I was an only child. Because I had my older brothers also brought something to the table. Like, for example, another seminal moment in my life is, okay, I'm maybe six or seven years old. They're watching the good, the bad and the ugly downstairs in the basement and I'm finished basement terrified. Yeah. Well, it's all like that, you know, fake would panel. Yeah. The old TV that used to be in the living room is down there. Yeah. And just the theme song to that movie horrified me. It was like that scared you. Yeah. So I could not watch the good, the bad and the ugly. But a week later, they're back down there. It's about 11 or 12 midnight or something like that. And on PBS is a movie called Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Right. This is 77. This is so I'm seven years old. And it starts again with very scary music. Yeah. And I instantly jumped up and was about to run away and they're like, Kevin, Kevin is watching. Yeah. So is that the first sort of comedic thing you remember really connecting with you that you and you saw it via PBS? Well, I saw a lot of the muppet show and the electric company and Sesame Street, all of which had a lot of great humor. And a lot of very respectful humor towards children. Like it didn't it didn't talk down. It was it's very, very funny. And also was sort of an education in a lot of ways about show business, like especially the muppets because it was behind the scenes. It was kind of fun. Yeah. And the more you could you could just enjoy it on so many different levels because the more you knew about showbiz, you would get all these jokes. But even if you knew nothing, it was entertaining because the at its simplest, the muppets, every episode was somebody trying to sing a song and a monster interrupts them. Yeah. That and you could just enjoy that. Yeah. Or there's all these other amazing things where you're sort of also getting an education inadvertently. Yeah. Well, you know, there were do you remember they would have like moment shots? Yes. Yes. From Norway or Germany. Yeah. So these were these pantomime artists who would do these weird performance art pieces with like without dialogue. Yeah. And and then of course, like on Sesame Street and the electric company, they would often have these like really experimental sort of like cartoons, you know, little, little, yeah, like they buy student films and a lot of it is actually, you know, to the sort of era that you were working on MTV, Liquid Television was a show that I don't know if you watched, but was often paired back to back with the state was almost like a just slightly more adult version of the weird experimental cartoons on Sesame Street. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't that great? They're not that different. Do you remember the one I don't remember if it was the electric company or Sesame Street, but it was it's the plumber. Yes. Come to fix the same. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like really funny sketches. Like I feel like a lot of a lot of electric company and Sesame Street sketches, you could pretty much refilm now with the same scripts and air them on any sketch show. Yeah. And people would be like, this fits. I think that the electric company was probably the introduction for me to Spider-Man. Yes. A lot of kids, that was the first place they saw Spider-Man. Yeah. There was a 1967 Spider-Man cartoon that actually Ralph Batsky worked on, who did Heavy Metal and Coonski and an American pop. And it's pretty terrible, but in a very entertaining way. And there was also a Marvel superhero's hour, but that was the first sort of live action Spider-Man. And it was really, really popular. Yeah. And also Morgan Freeman was introducing Morgan Freeman was easy reader, of course. Of course. I remember I my mom used to do daycare, so we would get like money from the government to like watch some kids or something, which actually think about it seems like that shouldn't have happened. But there was one kid that we would watch and his parents were like, the only thing is he can't watch the electric company. And so I was like, what? And I was a huge fan of electric company, but like for some reason I was like a four-year-old, I was like, oh fuck this kid. And so I would go out of my way to watch the electric company. This kid would freak like Rain Man freak out like smacking himself on the head screaming about the electric company. But otherwise was perfectly normal. I have no idea why. Because he loved it or because it triggered like he hated it or something was terrifying on it. I think it was Spider-Man. I have no idea what it was. I think it was like conducting a social experiment to be like, what is it about the electric? Let me take some notes about his reaction to the electric company. That is a trip. Did you watch the new electric company a couple of years ago? I auditioned for it. Did you? And it was so funny because when I auditioned, I thought, well maybe they, I've done sketch comedy, maybe they want some older people in it because they used to back in the day. And you had a reverence for this show? Yeah, for sure. But sure enough, it was I think it was all like kids. It was all like 19 years old. Did you watch Zoom a lot? No, you know, it's funny because there's those like blank spots, right? Like people constantly refer to Zoom. Yeah. And I'm like, somehow that just wasn't on our because a lot of those shows, a lot of those PBS like kid shows, your teacher would say, all right, it's time for us to watch this particular show. You watch it at school? Oh yeah. Oh, we had like in grade school, we would sometimes watch the electric cup because it teaches you how to read, you know, right? Or, but, and I think Zoom was a show like that. Yeah, it was. Zoom was very electric company. Zoom was actually produced in Boston at WGBHR PBS station here. And it was very experimental and kids could send in short films and they would actually allow them to air. And so these kids were making these like really bizarre experimental eight millimeter movies. Yeah. And they would they would show them on Zoom, which is crazy. Yeah. And really, really interesting. And a lot of people, like I talked to James Arbaniac, and he actually sent in shows to zoom him and his friends had made short short films and sent them to Zoom. That's amazing. And it was sort of one of the first sort of interactive national shows. Yeah. It doesn't really get a lot of credit. Like 70s PBS, I feel like, is something that has not really been explored very well. Yeah. And it really was very, very important for people all over who weren't in New York and weren't in LA, was was the news review a part of that? No, no, that was that was a syndicated show. Okay. But was also sitting Marty Groff? No, it was these Christian people who are trying to get like a covert Christian message in through news. Are you kidding me? No. So it was like a Davian Goliath kind of situation. Yeah. And they have those weird googly eyes. And I always hated how the mouth went in too far. Yeah. Like like they like their whole face would sort of cave in. Yeah, there was a Henry had a hip ball. Yeah. Yeah. And a big frog, Freddy frog. I do remember them. But that that kind of sucks to now realize, Oh, that was that was, but then again, I was raised so Catholic. Yeah, probably just seen normal. Like, yeah. Yeah, it's just like, Oh, this is actually not religious enough. Right. This is the way everyone talks. Would you guys watch like church on TV and stuff like that? No, God, no, because we would go to church all the time church on TV was for your elderly grandmother who can't get there. Yeah, because we had to think of Boston Catholic television. It was a whole station that was Boston Catholic television. And it was like, it was just like church after church. And there was all these weird kids shows. There was one called Gerbert that was a weird orange puppet. And he would teach you like sign language about Jesus. I still know the sign language of what Jesus is in sign language, which is pointing to the wrist, the holes in the wrist. Oh, great. That is. Yes. Let's teach the kids that. Yeah. And also, weirdly, Gerbert was always playing a game called Captain Towel. And they never said what that was. It was like, I'm just playing Captain Towel. And I was like, I did watch Captain Kangaroo. Yes. Yes. Now that was that wasn't a that wasn't a PBS show. No, that was a syndicated show as well. But that was a really smart show. It was a weird show. I do remember that that Mr. Green jeans. Yes. He went by the name Lumpy Branham. Yes. And I love that name. Yes. Yeah. Both Mr. Green jeans and Lumpy Branham are great names. My real name is Lumpy Branham. But professionally, I go by Mr. Green jeans. I don't want to, you know, I like to keep a little bit of anonymity here. So you watch a lot of kids stuff, a lot of PBS. Yeah. And were you watching sort of sitcoms and that sort of stuff with your parents? Were you mostly watching as a family or was it sort of on your own? As a family, we always watched the Sunday night movie on like ABC or something like that. Sunday Night Mystery movie. Well, there was there was always, you know, like whatever one of the networks had gotten as like, you know, a movie that had been in theaters maybe a year before, a year and a half premiere of. Yes. Exactly. Or Jaws or something like that. Yeah. Those were always so exciting. The other things that we would watch as a family were if there was an old, well, not, oh, I mean, old, I was a little kid. So, you know, like the sound of musical or West Side Story or some 60s musical. Yeah. Some big movie like that. We would all watch as a family or the mini series. Roots. North and South. Yeah. The Thornbirds. Really? You watched that with your parents because there's some controversial sort of. Oh, God, well, you're a religious, almost blasphemous things in the Thornbirds. Well, that's the thing is that those steamy those were most popular among Catholics. Oh, yeah. Thornbirds. And there was even a guy that was a Jesuit who used to write novels in the late 70s, early 80s, and they were always about priest fucking women. Yeah, of course. Of course, because that's, that's how you get that kind of stuff out in an ABC TV mini series. Were there like awkward conversations with your parents or everyone just kind of not look at each other and be in silence when these things would come on? Well, it was just said, Oh my God, this is so intense. And, you know, you know, I don't remember how they handled it. I do remember there was nervous. I became fascinated also when I was a kid with, with pulp books, like, for example, for some reason, we had jaws, the, the novel, yeah, and the exorcist. Yeah. I think every home in the 70s had to have the exorcist in the Amityville Horror in their house. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know what? I did. I actually listened to the exorcist as a book on tape recently. Okay. And it was really good. It really is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's in some ways better than the movie. And I imagine a movie like that because of your upbringing will be particularly the exorcist. I mean, that's as far as like, you know, what, what, what the Catholic family is okay with my Catholic family is okay with the exorcist was one of those movies that they would prefer that I not see. I did manage to read the novel and somehow like, you know, one of the ideas presented in the book and the movie is that she the child becomes susceptible to becoming possessed because he's unbaptized. Well, no, because she starts learning about the occult. Yes. Yes. She finds a book. So, so the, but it's almost a little bit of a trick in the novel to say because she was aware of these things. Yeah. She was susceptible trying to scare the reader. Well, I also remember in the book too, like, they sort of plant that as a red herring when before it's like clear that she's actually possessed. Like you're wondering if she's just mentally ill and picked up some of this stuff from these books and in that fed into her delusion. Right. And then, but then you're like, Oh, no, it's a demon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Did you actually believe in any of that stuff when you're watching these? Like, did you believe there were demons that could possess you and, you know, ghosts and supernatural as a kid? I did. And it really, you know, the thing about the exorcist is even in the movie, if you look at the end, there's like a list of like 15 people with SJ behind their names who were who are yeah, Jesuits who are advisors on the film. Yeah. So, that was a movie that that I think Catholics were especially terrified by because they're like, Oh, there's some legitimacy to this. Right. Because the church itself is giving some, I mean, you know, the Jesuits have always been the liberal outliers of the church. Right. But, but that really lent some legitimacy to it that made people especially afraid of it. Also interesting is that as a kid, if there was something sort of banned by your parents, you had the option of reading the book. Yeah. Can you imagine someone now is like, I won't allow you to watch? I don't know what kids watch now. Gossip Girl. I don't think that's been off for about 10 years. And they're like, I'm going to read the books. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Secretly read the books under the covers. And what's so funny about that is that you're probably going to get more information from the book. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. There was also sort of a strange, I always associate the 70s with like a real fascination with the supernatural. And for some, whatever reason, you know, you had all these movies that were huge movies. There was a lot of TV shows on like in search of and yeah, I'll really believe it or not. And all these sorts of things that were sort of like, oh, the 70s were all about this weird exploring these occult things and almost making them seem more legitimate. Like, yeah, oh, absolutely. There was, for example, Satanism is you see like some of the some of like, for example, in Staten Island, the whole case of a cropsy. Yes. Like whether or not there was a guy named Cropsy or not, I'm not I'm not exactly sure. Or like the what we were talking before about the western Virginia, the three west Memphis, three west Memphis, three, right. A lot of those cases where something weird, some sort of murder or a molestation or something like that happens in a woods, it'll get lent some legitimacy. This whole idea of, oh, they were probably Satanist, you know, yeah. And that was especially popular, I think, in so much of the movies and TV of the 70s, that it made people think, Oh, yeah, exactly. They must be out there, the Satanist. Well, do you remember the mid 80s satanic panic, a complete freak out? It was there's a great book about it called blasphemous rumors. That's a really, really great exploration of this. And it was every talk show, Harald, though, Jenny Jones, Sarah Lee Jesse Raphael, all these people who claimed to have been abused by these satanic cults in suburbia. And then it turned out it was all bullshit. Yeah, every single, but these people legitimately thought, like they almost had post hypnotic suggestions by their doctors who essentially wanted to write a book. And it was this and everyone was bought into it at the time. And it sort of grew out of that 70s sort of popular culture obsession with these things. Yeah. And I do remember watching something like in search of, yes, because Leonard Newmoi had a gravitas. Yeah. And it was like, Oh, Bigfoot must be real, if they're they're showing it in a documentary style and not just on the bionic man. Absolutely. Right. Right. Now that was big. That was both both in search of doing doing Bigfoot and and the bionic man was amazing. That my people are always like, what's your favorite gift you've ever been given? For me, it's definitely, I'm nine years old. It's my ninth birthday. And I get the bionic man doll. Oh, yeah. Where you can peel his arm and look in the back of his head through his bionic eye through his eye. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, that was always such a funny show because there were like all of those, all of those the bionic man, Charlie's Angels, the bionic woman, they were often running into weird supernatural phenomena as well. Because that was also with the charity to the God stuff, which was a book, I remember getting at the library that came on 75 about like aliens built the pyramid. Right. And a lot of that stuff was all sort of bubbling to the surface and popular culture in the late 70s and early 80s, you know, which ended up leading to like close encounters and that sort of stuff. Yeah. So TV is serving as sort of your video store almost because I assume you didn't have VCR. No, I bought with my own money that I saved up from like cutting lawns a $300 beta max top loader. I think I think it was 1980 when I bought it. Yeah, that's that's an early adopter. Yeah, I mean, you could buy a beta max in 75. And actually, one of my other hobbies, aside from collecting all this junk is collecting old tapes that people taped off television of TV broadcast. And a guy taped the whole first five years of SNL. Oh, this guy had a beta machine starting in 75 and taped and those are great because they in later earrings, they totally reworked all the episodes. Oh, so on the first earrings of SNL, there's a lot of different stuff. Yeah, they would sweeten things, they would replace sketches with rehearsal sketches, they would cut things out and just never to be aired again. So the first earrings of SNL's are always difficult to grab and are very enlightening. Fascinating. So those are interesting. And I'm like, oh, this guy had a beta player in 75, but even 80 was really early to have a VHS or beta machine. Was there even a place you could rent tapes? Gosh, I think so. Gosh, I don't know. Am I wrong about that? In 1980, I would have been 10. And let's see, I wonder what the most contemporaneous movie I had at that time was. I don't know. Did you own movies? No, they were mostly things that I would tape off of TV. And tapes were spent like a blank tape was like $25. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was closer to 82 or 83 somewhere in there. Did you guys have cable? No, I never had it. And it was one of those ways that I always felt kind of deprived. You know what I mean? Everyone who knew how to? Yeah, right. The kids next door. So we would watch things over there. Oh, I do remember, you know, it's so funny. Do you remember on TV? Yes. Yes. Yeah. It was huge in the Midwest and the middle part of the country. John Glaser actually brought that up recently. Yeah. We once went over to my dad's work, his partner, that he did artwork with. They were commercial artists. And he had on TV, and we watched the in-laws. Yes. We could just come out like the, you know, the summer before. Alan Arkin? Alan Arkin and Peter Falk. Yes. Yes. Very, very funny movie. Yeah. So I remember loving that. But I also remember that on on TV, you could see things like 10, you know, and see like. Oh, yeah. The late night after 10 p.m. stuff, they would get a little salacious. But even up into the 70s, I mean, Playboy after dark was on regular network television. It was. And to the early 70s. Yeah. That was like Hugh Hefner's welcome to my nightclub kind of thing, which, you know, wasn't Playboy TV. But at the same time, on a network, you're getting essentially sort of an under-the-counter show. Yeah, yeah. And in 1979, ABC aired a Playboy roller disco special. Wow. And so I think people, you know, when they think about the networks being much more conservative at the same time, they were like, man, this will sell. And they'd hair these things. Yeah. Yeah. Which is, which is interesting. Well, it is funny because there's, there's all of these currents in American culture where, where oftentimes things seem more conservative, but then there's always a exception. Oh, absolutely. You know, I do remember that, that PBS would sometimes air Benny Hill or, or Python. Right. And that they would sometimes show breasts. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like, that was a lot of things. Like people would be like, I can't watch these on PBS and it's okay. Yeah. Because it's sort of educational. Yes. And they're not, they're not beholden to FCC rules. Yeah. Which is still true. PBS is not because it's a, it's a public station. And they basically are just like, well, if people don't like it, they won't give them money. I remember them running the deer hunter uncut in this is probably around 1980 or something like that. And I watched it. That's a mind blower. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And that is, that is a very intense, very anti-war movie from a very contemporary war. Yeah. For a kid to see. I mean, these are, again, at the time was not unusual for someone of your age to have watched these kinds of movies. Yeah. But I remember seeing Apocalypse Now on TV too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they would have pretty, or TV, pretty soon. I mean, relatively soon after they were in theaters. Because that was the only way that a lot of people could see them. Yeah. Which was a huge deal and they would get massive ratings. Oh, yeah. And now when I watch a show like Three's Company, yeah, it's sleasier than if I'm watching 10 or one of these movies that was like an already movie of the time. But something about a lot of those shows are just like more salacious and kind of almost like the jiggle factor of it is so kind of like, is it because people are having to you know, use more innuendos? I think so. Yeah. And so it also makes it what everything's about. Like it permeates everything on those shows. Yes. Right. Right. Right. I do remember that my mother, you know, my mom, like as a Catholic woman from the, you know, who came of age in the 1950s and everything, she did have, there were certain shows we were not supposed to watch. Right. Love American style. Right. Mary Hartman. Mary Hartman. That I could see. Uh huh. And at Three's Company, she even frowned on. Yeah. Yeah. Was that because the character was faking gay or just because of like the, the jokes. I don't know if she would have even caught on that one of the characters was faking gay. I mean, maybe I'm, I think it's that the two girls were just so, you know, voluptuous and everything. Everyone was, it was the squinger. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, the Regal Beagle might be the slisiest place ever on television. Like it just like, and they're like, Oh, yeah. Regal Beagle. I can't believe that was a place on a show. And Mr. Furloughly, I was being like, Oh, gonna get me some girls. Yeah. That show really is kind of shocking to watch as a time capsule of a very specific time in American history. Uh, to be like, this was one of the most popular shows on television. Oh, yeah. Families are watching it. I do remember getting a huge kick out of it. And, and you know, when it was also when it was syndicated, you could see it at earlier hours. Oh, absolutely. Do you know the, the famous, um, John Ritter testicle story from three school? I've told this on the show before, but you'll enjoy this. The, uh, John Ritter wore very short shorts. It was the seventies. And in 2002, somebody was watching a rerun of three's company on TV land. And they're like, Are those? And it was his Tesla was just pop. He's on the, on the bed on the phone. And he complained and TV land was like, yeah, they're there. And no one had noticed it before because TV started getting bigger. People's reception was better and just nobody had noticed them. So they ended up cutting it out of the episode. But John Ritter is like, Yep. He confirmed it. And it was like 20 years and nobody noticed, which is crazy. That is amazing. Maybe the, maybe the most shocking moment of television and unnoticed for over 20 years. That's amazing. Yeah. But that's funny. You know, technology and rerunning these things for so long, people just get so familiar with them. And they're not, and they also people aren't looking for that sort of stuff at the time, I think, because they just wouldn't expect it. Yeah. So you, um, you wrote down a bunch of shows that you watched it. We picked a TV guide from July 22nd, 1978. And, uh, you were instantly drawn to this one because the love boat on the cover. Yeah. You know what? My sister, if I recall, I think that the love boat was on when I was a kid on either Friday or Saturday nights, around about eight or nine at night. Yeah, it was on eight o'clock. And then, um, fantasy island was on at nine. Yes. And my little sister and I, for the longest time, went through a period where it was just the two of us at home. Okay. Because our older brothers and sisters were out, you know, with friends, our parents would go out to like parties and stuff. And so they just leave the two of us home. And so we were always watching those two shows. And then that's why I mentioned the Dukes of Hazard because at some point that came in as like being on before all those or something. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but what we would do was we developed a game where we would watch, uh, the first, you know, up to the first commercial break in the love boat and then get out pads of paper to make predictions of what was going to happen with the various characters who had been established as having problems. Because both those shows were of a similar format. Well, absolutely. Yeah. You establish a few, uh, problems that characters are having. There's a couple with a strained marriage. There's the single lady. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And what was funny about it was that, you know, I guess that we weren't, that we weren't the sharpest kids because we were often wrong about what went up into these. But you're almost writing fanfiction to a degree, right? You're sort of educating yourself in, um, story structure. It's true. It's true. Which is just completely inadvertently just trying to amuse yourselves. You're like, I'm learning how to write for television. Yeah. I think it's probably also because we were also, I think we were, we were becoming a little bit savvy to the fact that these shows were a little bit ridiculous. Right. And we're manufactured. Somebody was making these. Right. Right. So, so that we were definitely like being able to play around with, oh, and you know what? But when I started to, once I got that Leonard Molten book and started to get into movies that way, that that sense of, oh, a lot of this is silly, uh, really built because by the time I was in, oh, I don't know, maybe the eighth grade going into freshman year in high school, by that time I started becoming very interested in like, um, like grindhouse, for example, like, right, right, right. Movies like Basket Case or Frank Hennell Letter. Yeah. Or Dawn of the Dead and stuff like that. And just kind of enjoying movies that were like not trying to be all, all that barbie. Yes. So you, but we're still sort of saying something. Yeah. So, so you sort of came around. So you were sort of dismissive of television when you discovered movies because you're like, ah, this is kind of stuff almost. Right. And then you realize, oh, no, wait a minute. Right. With the tools of this, you can take this sort of more sleazy stuff and make something interesting out of it. Yeah. Were you renting these movies? Yeah, definitely. Those, by the time, by the time I was, you know, watching a lot of those grindhouse kind of movies, they, those were then rentals, you know, Dawn of the Dead was the first movie I ever rented. Yeah. August 1st, 1983. That's great. Moved, uh, to the suburb that we, that I grew up in. And I still, I have the actual VHS we rented because that video store were not a business in the early 2000s. Oh, wow. And actually these, these shelves that you're sitting in a store from that video store. Oh, wow. And I got those and the actual tape of Dawn of the Dead. And, uh, in 2005, I went to the Monroeville Mall in Pennsylvania where they filmed it. Uh-uh. And it was very, because I've seen that movie maybe close to a hundred times. Uh-uh. And I had never been to that mall, but I knew where everything was. Wow. Because I'd seen that movie so many times. And it was really uncanny and strange. That is, like, around this corner will be this. And there it is. Wow. It was really the first time I ever sort of went to a place I knew from a movie or television. Yeah. Since then, I've been to a ton, like, I've been out in LA and, you know, things are so familiar. But it was very weird. It was like the closest thing I've had to a religious experience. Yeah. Where I was like, this is where it happened. That's amazing. Very weird. And so you're watching stuff like the Frank Hennell and our stuff and a lot of this stuff set in New York. So I imagine that maybe colored the way you saw New York before you actually went there. It was the first time you went there when you went for college. No. The first time I went to New York was in 1980. I went to choir camp. Okay. I was 10 years old. And what was most fascinating about that trip to New York was that that was actually my chance to see the boys in the band before they all died of AIDS because my choir director was a gay man. And, you know, that was like not something that was spoken aloud by anybody. But nobody said it. Right. Exactly. And we're a bunch of 10-year-olds so we don't know what to say or make of anything. And he was going to meet up with our former choir director who had an apartment in Chelsea. Right. And that's where we were going to stay for a while while we sang concerts at St. John's right by the music of my modern art. And I remember there was a black man named Robert Love who had a huge afro and wore an all white sort of like, you know, polyester suit. Yeah. And everyone was listening to disco and funk. And they smoked cigarettes that smelled strange to us. Because it's the height of Studio 54. It totally was. It was 1980. So, you know, it wasn't until what like two or three years later that people started to be aware of this thing. Yeah. Yeah. And years later, I had lunch with my old choir director and I was like, what's up with Robert Love and Mr. Manz and Yana Yana? He's like, they're all gone. All of them are dead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was, I guess, lucky to be horrendously overweight. Oh, really? Bought me a little time, bought me some time. So when you're so to that respect, like, you know, you kind of know that you have like a kinship with this, with this guy as a kid, maybe not know why, like, when you were watching shows like, say, bewitched and, you know, like Paul Layne would show up and stuff like that, where you're like, oh, yeah. No, you know, it's so fascinating, because my friends and I, just a couple years ago, went on a total Paul Lindkig. Because he's amazing. Oh, he is amazing. And but at the time, I did watch Hollywood squares and got a huge kick out of him. Oh, he's great on it. Yeah. And stuff like that. But no, did not put two and two together. Yeah. So yeah, it is really and then there another one was Charles Nelson Riley. Charles Nelson Riley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Riptorn. Riptorn. Riptorn. Riptailor. Riptailor. So yeah, no, I really wasn't, I really didn't pick up on that stuff when I was a kid. But I certainly do now. And it is, it really is fun to watch like collections. You know, you can watch like YouTube videos of the best jokes of Paul Lindkig. Yeah. Yeah. I love, you know, his stuff and Bye Bye Birdie was like this dad and you're like, really? You know, but people really didn't assume that sort of stuff, you know, like Liberace, you know, like what a good guy and all this stuff like that. So I, you know, I imagine growing up as a kid and feeling that way, you, you didn't have a lot of things to point to. So when you saw boys in the van, you're like, yes. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Where it's being overtly discussed. Yeah. Yeah. Because up in the late 70s, you had soap where you had Billy Crystal. Right. Now that was, that was either one of those shows that my mom didn't want me to see or I just never, I mean, I knew of its existence, but I didn't know what it was all about. Yeah. And I think that show would, again, it's, it's parroting soap operas, which is something you wouldn't have the lexicon of. And unlike something like The Muppet Show, if although I do enjoy soap, if you're not aware of a lot of the cliches, it's not really that enjoyable. Yeah, I'm sure. Because you're like, this show, silly, but you're like, no, it's actually fairly accurate for what was sort of haunted. Yeah. Same like Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman. Yeah. Yeah. So, so it would have been probably to adult for you. So was there anything that like a sitcom that you did watch that was like a, like a guilty pleasure where you're like, even though I'm into this film more and I'm watching, you know, breathless, is there something you're like, but I really do love Mark and Mindy. You know, I, let's see, just from this list here that I wrote down, I remember thinking the Jeffersons was remarkable for a while, you know, totally getting into the Jeffersons, especially the character of the maid. Yeah. She was, yeah, she was just such a great snarky character. And I don't know, I remember just taking a lot of pleasure in the, I don't know, the, the fun and the, you know, rapid fire dialogue there. Right. So a lot of the Norman Lear stuff was probably pretty. Oh, was it? Yeah. Was that a Norman Lear thing? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, for some reason, all in the family was kind of, I guess, before my time a little bit. And also probably a little adult. Like the Jeffersons, although a spinoff of all in the family and did deal with some social issues like interracial couples and that sort of stuff was definitely not as heavy as all. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It was definitely fun. Did you, did you grew up at a very, very white bread area? Like, did you interact with black people or was it just pretty much like I saw them on TV? And that's it. Mostly that, mostly just, yeah. Yeah. Cincinnati, very, very segregated. Yeah. So that was probably another factor where you're sort of seeing this sort of almost exotic, you know, how, what are these people? What are their lives like? And that sort of thing as well. I do want to point out the love vote on the Saturday night here in the week that you've done is a, you know what, maybe I'll see if you know how these stories end. Oh my God. One, a comedy of errors has a frantic wife played by Michelle Lee trying to elude her husband convinced he's trying to kill her when he's really arranging her surprise party. That is the classic love vote plot line, I think. Then we have two, Isaac falls for a sizzling singing dynamo and three an intolerable bore played by Jim neighbors. This is, this is the best one. Turns out to be an international jul thief. Jul thieves huge in the 70s. Huge. The big panther and all. Yeah, sure. Jul thieves. And then also on the bionic woman that that night while investing in a security league, Jamie becomes one herself after a hairdresser gives her shampoo that is actually a chemical brainwash. Yeah. Again, we had talked before the show brainwashing was huge then. Absolutely. Like, you know, we were, I have written a story or performed a story on risk recently about how fascinated I became with hypnosis when I was in the sixth grade. So what's that? How old are you in the sixth grade? Maybe 10 or 10 or so? Yeah, about 10. So this is all around the same era that we're talking about all this other stuff. And I saw a barber Streisand movie on TV. I also, when I was a kid, became fascinated with musicals. And thank goodness I got over that. Yeah. So dark times. Although to this day, I'm still like, because now, you know, it's hard to avoid Broadway musicals. Yeah. I'm still convinced that the old Broadway musicals that, you know, the stuff up through the 70s, up through like a chorus line, were better than today's because there's something about the way that pop music has influenced the writing of the music itself. I think up to the 70s, they still had the tradition of like the 1930s musical. Yeah, in a lot of the, in a lot of the guys still working on those were from that era. Yeah. And now you go through pop music to sort of get people interested in them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, something about that whole American idol and Glee and Yada Yada, that stuff. In a lot of ways, I think it's, it's due to Greece, which did come out of that era, but also became pop music. Well, you know, came all the way around. That's really interesting. Like that's another thing that was going on during the 70s was that there was this obsession with the 1950s. Yes. So Greece was a part of that as was happy days in American graffiti and Laverne and Shirley. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Until they stopped pretending it took place in the 50s. Yeah. Did they? Oh, yeah. By the later seasons, they just didn't even bother anymore. Really? Yeah. Which was really weird in Shirley. Yeah. And actually happy days, too, but more Laverne and Shirley by like season five, they're like, it's not really in the 50s, ain't it? Don't even bother. That's hilarious. Yeah. No, I did watch all of those shows. And that was the 70s was the first nostalgia decade. Oh, it was. It was where nostalgia sort of happened. Yeah. And people started wanting to look back at their teenage years, because the 50s was really the first time teenagers were a thing. Yeah. Because before that, you were a kid, then you were an adult. At 18, you got married, you got a job, you had kids, but you know, and your what became teen years were just preparing for that. Yeah. And so there was that's when the teenager became a thing and you started getting these AIP movies aimed at them and the beach party movies and into the 60s. Yeah. And so once the sort of hippie dream of the 60s was over in the 70s, people started looking back at the 50s and you started getting nostalgia, which really went in 20 years. Shana, you had a huge variety show and all of these things. And then in the in the 80s, it was 60s fascination. And you know, and then you got stuff like the wonder years. And in the 90s, you had 70s. And even in the 2000s, it was 80s. And it was always sort of these 20 year cycles, because people in their mid 30s started to life started to get a little boring, or they started kind of, you know, getting a little semi and they start reflecting on what things were like when they were, you know, that 70s show in the 90s. Yeah. And it really, the 70s was the first time that happened. Yeah. So, you know, West Side Story had a big revival. Oh, well, you know, when the 90s being kind of my decade of like, you know, like the most happening decade, I guess, of that I can remember in my own life. Yeah, people were obsessed with the 70s. Absolutely. Especially New York. I mean, I used to, I was obsessed with House of Style. It was my favorite show on MTV. No, no offense to the state. But I love houses and I loved it so much. And so much of that was all like, we're going to show you how to get a good 70s look. And you know, they were kind of focused on like the club kids and all the very 70s. And it was sort of a revival of the disco stuff started coming back and that stuff. And it seemed so cool. And I hated the 70s because I was always like a punk rock kid. And I was like, oh, but for some reason that in the 90s, I was like, ah, this actually looks kind of cool. Yeah. Getting this all in there. Yeah. And in New York to me at the time seemed so 70s obsessed, you know, and that Brady Bunch off Broadway show. It started. Yeah. Did you ever go see that? I did go see it because Ken Marino from the state was cast in it for a book. Oh, really? Who was he playing? Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm sorry. He was cast in a version of Valley of the Dolls. Oh, really? Which was produced by the same people who had done the Brady Bunch. Yeah. Who was he playing in Valley of the Devil? Oh, God. I don't know. Is there a handsome young male character? I'm sure. I'm sure. That was a huge thing. So people were basically taking scripts of movies and television shows in the 90s in New York and sort of putting them up in black box theaters and as kind of kitschy. Yeah, just leading them as written, but really pointing them out. And that's actually how I think Melanie Hudson got on Saturday Night Live. She was playing Jan Brady in the in the Brady Bunch thing that they were doing. The Brady Munch, I definitely watched a ton of, but that would have been when I was younger, 5th grade, 6th grade. Right, right, right. That plays a big role in the story of my first, of when I was first really at a moment of crisis for myself as a child, I'm dealing with the understanding that I was gay was there was an episode in which Bobby Brady, the youngest Brady boy, is mark looking land. I think kissed by a girl by surprise or something like that and sees fireworks literally sees fireworks and which is a mental illness. As any test, he's like, what the heck just happened? So yeah, he runs up to her and kisses her and surprises her. And then again, sees fireworks. And so I was like, okay, I'm not an idiot, even though I'm in the 5th grade, I was like, I can gather here that you don't actually see fireworks, but I should test this out because hopefully I can get over this whole liking boys thing. Yeah, like it was a temporary, yeah, yeah. So there was a game of spin the bottle that my friends and I had in the in the 5th grade at over at Carolyn Altov's house, which is actually also where I hypnotized Carolyn Altov and got her to lose her feeling in her leg. But side note, not the same night. Yes, no, indeed. I did not see fireworks when I kissed Kathy Hassell. Maybe needed to be hypnotized. That's true. What a cool thing to hypnotize someone would be like every time you kiss them on fireworks. Now that would be erotic hypnosis. Absolutely. Brainwashing and Bobby Brady. This is what I want your memoir to be. It would be really interesting to do a sort of a study of like brainwashing hypnosis, mind control, all that kind of as it's represented in movies. Like, for example, it was many years later that I ended up seeing the menturion can. And that was the first time it really came into public eye. I think the communist scare, that's when brainwashing was like, that's what they do. They brainwash you and you're a sleeper agent. You don't even know, which was almost like a more, which is just as sci-fi as the vision of body snatchers, but is essentially the same exact plot. That's true. You're right. It's interesting. It's, you know, we are not who we think we are. That's right. Was it was really when people started to explore that kind of stuff? Yeah. One of the things too was that when when you're doing the state, a lot of the, a lot of the state's sketches were, you know, maybe not consciously sort of deconstructing a lot of television sort of cliches. You know, like the one that comes to mind is like the immigrant, the Italian and the red. Oh, the Jew, the Italian and the red. Which was like, like a, like a slightly, slightly exaggerated 70s sitcom. Oh, absolutely. That's exactly what it was was David Wayne and myself and Ken Marino said, oh, you know what? The three of us have never written a sketch together. Right. So we said afterward today at five o'clock, when everyone else goes home, we're going to lock ourselves in an empty office at MTV that no one's using. And we won't come out until we've got some sketches. And it took us a long time to think of anything. And then someone, I think David said, well, what's a sketch that only the three of us? Right, right, right. And I said, the Judea time and the red and gay. And we were like, let's do it. Yeah. And of course, what it's really about is, yeah, the simple stereotyping that you might find in a 70s sitcom. And that's, and, but it doesn't go much beyond that. I mean, it's so quick that it's just like, here's what we are. And that's all that we are. Yeah, but I mean, that was, that was a show. Like, like people would pitch that as a show, you know, in like 1975, and like what a high concept show, you know, because like, like a show like Love Sydney, which is the first sort of positive image of a gay character on television. And again, everybody hated it. But that was when love Sydney was 1983. And it was Tony Randall. And he was a, he was a gay man, lived in a New York apartment building. He sort of adopted this single mother and her kids and took care of them. And it was, you know, not, it was a gay character presented in a way that wasn't like a, like a comic relief character, like I'm sober. You know, it wasn't like a mincing, like, and, and people just didn't like it. It was a shame. I always assumed that he was gay, but he wasn't right. Tony Randall was Tony Randall was, do you think so? Oh, okay, I should look that maybe not. Well, we were just talking about how we were shocked that Don Deloise wasn't in some cases. It's hard to know. You're like, Don Deloise, Tony Randall, and people were like, no. And then you're like, but Pauline isn't yet. No, you're, you're, it's off. It's off. Oh, God. So when was the first time you saw MTV as a kid? Because you didn't have cable? Did you watch it at all? Oh, God. Yeah, it was over at the neighbors. The next door neighbors had it. And so I remember sitting over there and seeing things like, Oh, gosh, what, what's some of the earliest? I saw some of the earliest MTV. Yeah, Benatar was absolutely. And the Quinn. Yeah, I don't know the guy with the curly hair. Oh, my not my curry. Adam something or other. Yeah. But yeah, I remember videos like, like, Bowie and Jagger doing dancing in the streets. Yeah. And have you seen that? Where's Michael Jackson? He's in the web video. People did of the boa. Oh, that's amazing. It's really funny. But so when you, when you guys got to MTV and they're doing a show there, what was that like having sort of, you know, seen MTV and probably felt like a million miles away when you're growing up? Did you link those two things together? Because it was pretty different in the early 90s, but it was still MTV. We totally did. And I think we actually did a sketch about that. It wasn't on our on the state proper. It was on, you wrote it, you watch it. The first thing that we were hired for was a show called you wrote it, you watch it that had only 13 episodes. John Stewart was the host. He had just come off of short attention span theater, which was on Comedy Central, which was owned by MTV Network. Oh, okay. And we were one of various entities that were making these little sketches. So people would write in, I went through this experience and then a sketch comedy unit or a director or so would recreate it in a funny way, which later, Chappelle kind of did a good job of interviewing people. I will admit, I wrote in several stories through you wrote it, you watch it. Did you? I did. Yes. Actually, that story I told on risk about Eddie Murphy. I wrote it. You watch it. Yeah. Holy cow. What a trap was never made, obviously. Oh my gosh. Yeah, but it was the state that we were the ones out of the whole unit who were like, no, you should just interview people and intercut it. So we were doing, we did a lot of stuff. And one of them was what it's like to work here at the offices of MTV. Right. And so we were dressing up as all these ridiculous, you know, characters like Rico Swabe. Yes. Sure. They love my appearance. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So yeah, making it seem as if MTV itself was what it was trying to look like. Right. And because you guys were the first generation of people doing stuff on MTV that had grown up watching MTV. That's right. That's right. Yeah. So that's when stuff started to change there because sort of the innovation of MTV when it was first happening was just sort of blatantly out of ignorance. Yeah. There's nothing. There's no precedent here. We don't know what you're doing. But you've sort of, you know, you've experienced it. So you're kind of like, I get what this is. Yeah. And let's start playing with it. And I think one of the things that so baffled or frustrated them when we came in was that they wanted us to be doing comedy that was mostly pop culture referential, right? Right. They wanted us to be writing sketches about Marky Mark and, you know, whatever else was happening on MTV at the time. And we, as kids who had been raised on Python and SNL and, you know, the Muppet Show and whatever, we just wanted to do archetypal comedy. Yeah. Yeah. So we, that's what we mostly did. And the story we always tell is finally, at one point, they wanted us to do that. They wanted us to do pop references and recurring characters. And we were very hesitant. Finally, one day they came down, they were like, guys, here is a list. Here is a mimeograph list. We're going to give it to you all of things you should write sketches about. Very helpful. It was like Madonna. And then girls are wearing chokers nowadays, right? Something about that. You know what I mean? 90210. So here's the before started to interrupt you. But I, this is a sketch I would like to see is the soulless executives sitting around a table, creating that like some guy being like, that's not like girls with chokers. They can do so much with that. I like, I don't know, you know, Madonna's boobs or whatever, you know, it'll help these kids. Oh, shit. So, um, yes, Ben Grant came back with them for a sketch about 90210. Right, right. Have you ever heard this story? It's no, no. It's the kids in 90210 are like, have you seen Dylan? Where's Dylan? He's blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Bob Dylan enters, right? And he's like, Hey, guys, I was just at the Pete Pit. And the executives at MTV said to us, who's Bob Dylan? No one knows who Bob Dylan is, meaning no one who's eight years old. And we can't admit those. That's the age of the people watching. Right. So the first season of the state has a reference to Bob has a secret reference to Bob Dylan in every episode. Oh, I did not know that just to sort of stick it to them. That's, that's amazing. So you're, so, and again, you're, you're playing with, you can do that on television. You're sort of doing the secret reference, like almost like if people notice this, they're going to be the people we really want to get to. And I think, you know, one of people's very favorite sketches from the state is Taco Man, the Taco Mail. Yes. Yes. And for me, that's always been like a real, like, I don't know, that I love the way that that came into existence because David Wayne, Michael Black and myself all wrote it together. We thought it was hilarious. We pitched the script to the group. It got three votes, which was three of us who wrote it. And we were like, all right, it's not even going to get to the executives to say yes or no. So we were like, let's do it anyway. Who's going to stop us? So we took David's high eight cameras, family's high eight camera. Yeah. And when the group was filming some big budget sketch, we just like went around the corner to some suburban neighborhood, knocked on someone's door and said, do you mind if we use your front lawn for a little while? Did they recognize you from the show? Oh, no, I don't think so. I mean, you know, I think they just sort of like, well, MTV is around the neighborhood and these kids want to shoot something in our front lawn. And we asked our, you know, secretly asked our art department. Can you correct us get like a mailman suit and yeah, yeah, yeah. Kevin, is this just a way for us to get you tacos? No, it's a sketch. So he shot it and edited it. And then we presented it to the group and they were like, okay, we like it. And so it went. And so I think that that's almost like symbolic to me of a lot of the spirit of MTV back in those days. Which would never happen. Yeah. Would never happen now. Yeah. I mean, be able to do that like essentially filming a YouTube video. Yeah. In 1995. Yeah. And getting it on MTV is great. I mean, and Jake Fodemest who actually wrote something recently about loving that. Yeah. Yeah. He had his score TV show on at the same time, which was a New York cable access show. Yeah. Hosted by a 13 year old. Was he 13, 14 years old? Yeah. He was a little kid. In his bedroom. Yeah. And MTV airs that as a show on MTV. It's a teenager show and is legitimate, not a manufactured show. Yeah. You know, he's interviewing Luscious Jackson in his bedroom. Yeah. You know, and the kids in the hall and crazy. It completely insane that it was sort of this, this sort of, you know, I hate to say magical time. Yeah. But it was that sort of a crossroads where the corporation hadn't quite got the formula yet. Yeah. And I think that I think that so many of these magical moments in, you know, where art and commerce, you know, where something like, like they always talk about how in cinema, in the late sixties through, you know, like the mid to late seventies, it was that period where, where the studios were kind of at a loss or wait, wait, it was a new, new guard coming in, old guard was like, didn't know what the hell to do. So there was a lot and a lot of going bankrupt. Yeah. The old studio system falling apart. Yeah. So a lot of masterpieces came out of that period because people were given a lot of creative freedom. They were given tools in no direction. Yeah. So you had resources without, without oversight. Yeah. And, and so I think that, you know, a similar thing happens in TV sometimes. I'm rather hopeful about this period we're in right now, simply because I think that there's so many television outlets out there. I agree. I, right now, and I've, and I've said this for as well, it reminds me so much of the mid eighties because in the mid eighties and up to the mid nineties, you had all these cable outfits. Yeah. You had still had local television producing its own programming and syndicated market was still there. You also had, you know, movie theaters were, were presenting a lot more different stuff. You had drive ins and grand houses still around. Yeah. So there was just this need for content. Yeah. And it was sort of an arms race. Yeah. And now we have the same thing with all of these web, you know, Yahoo, Google, Hulu, Netflix, they're all trying to produce stuff as well. And they're not TV production people. So they're kind of saying, we get the platform. You're the person who knows what you're doing. You just do it. And that's what it was kind of like then. It was like, you know, we don't know. Yeah. And MTV was very experimental. And it was, you know, showing stuff like liquid television in the state and, you know, stuff like the first season of the real world, which changed the world. Yeah. I don't think, you know, some many would argue for the worst. But that was the blueprint for everything. Yeah. Yeah. And that was just like someone pitched them a thing and they're like, yeah, whatever. I don't know. We don't know anything. Yeah. And so that's where these innovations come from. Yeah. And again, it's almost like stumbling on Citizen Kane. Yeah. You know, they're like, what is this? And it ends up being this thing that resonates. Yeah. And I think that when, when you try to force that sort of stuff, it doesn't work. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. And you get the reas company. You know, I mean, when you're, you know, a show that I feel like was old men, and I don't know if this is true, but trying to write what the kids will like. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. You're never going to get something interesting out of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. So what else, you know, before I take too much of your time out, what else did you write down there for some of the other shows? Maybe we haven't, we haven't touched upon yet in there. You know, at the very, on this list, one of the things that, that does stand out to me is the gong show. Right. That was one of those shows in the 70s that I felt like was a kind of a window, a window to a world that another like, just like Monty Python and the Holy Grail, I was like, what is, where does this come from? Because it's basically a performance art show. It is. And, and it's so, was it shot in New York, the shot in LA? Yeah. It just has this feeling of, yeah, that it's very much kind of like small theater performance art. Yeah. Nobody knows we're doing this. Yeah. Yeah. That's a show that actually hasn't come up on this show before and was a massive phenomenon in the 70s. They made a movie. They made a gong show movie because it was such a popular show. Right. And you had people like the Unknown Comedian, the Unknown Comment, Marie Langston, becoming a superstar, basically, nationally, and he had a paper bag on his head, you know, you have like gene gene, the dancing machine and all these bizarre things in the, in the one sketch, well, not even a sketch, because they literally would let pretty much anyone get on the show and do their, their talent was these two girls that just came out and Hot Pants and eight popsicles. Remember that? It was like these two girls in two tops just like eating popsicles. They didn't get gonged. They were just like, yep, just sitting on the stage eating popsicles. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was such a strange, such a strange show, but, but really so fun. Yeah. And very aware of what it was. Yeah. And, you know, almost taking the sort of star of the day 1950s sort of model and really incorporating everything that was the 70s into that show. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that it really has, it has the feeling of it has the feeling that there that folks there on that set are definitely on, you know, some kind of drug. Yeah, a lot, there's a lot of drugs flowing around, you know, in the same way that like Saturday Night Live kind of had that feel in the early days too of like, and I think that this is an interesting thing to to note that there were so many interview shows like the Dick Cavett Show. Yeah, Dick Cavett. Where people would come on like, you know, like for example, David Bowie coming on to the Dick Cavett Show around about, I don't know, when he was in his white. Thin white dude. Thin white dude. Yeah. Yeah. We're American. He's clearly like out of his mind. Oh, yeah. He's basically the man who fell to earth. Yeah. I mean, he is really out of his mind. Like, even for people who don't know, who've never heard the word cocaine would look at him and go, this word cocaine just came into my head. I don't I don't know what that is, but I just looked at him and I just that popped in there. But you know, I mean, I suppose that that sort of thing happens occasionally, occasionally now, but even it does go back or I mean, Judy Garland was often like completely bomb. Oh, yeah. But it's almost like the same thing where people don't, you know, people didn't ever think, oh, Paul Lynn's gay. People wouldn't ever think, Oh, Judy Garland's out of her mind on Quayludes. You know what I mean? Because people just there was an ignorance and it was an innocence that people weren't aware of this sort of stuff. So they would never think that. But they would often like, wouldn't they even on like the early Carson or maybe Jack Parr or stuff like that? Wouldn't they wouldn't they often be smoking a cigarette or all the time? Not even on the early ones. Like, you know, Carson was, you know, people would smoke up to the 80s. People were smoking all the time on, you know, Merv and all these shows, people just sitting smoking a cigarette. And one of the things that is really fascinating to me about that era of talk show and that is is completely, for the most part, lost now with the exception of someone like Graham Norton, who I think does this still and does it well, excuse me, is the mixture of people. So you would have David Bowie and then, like, Alexander Sotsanito, you know what I mean? And, like, yeah, you'd have, like, Gore Vidal with someone from Little House in the Prairie, you know what I mean? It's Michael Landen, yeah, Michael Landen and a Playboy bunny and, you know, Nixon, you know, it was like just this bizarre and it was totally taken as, yeah, that's what happens, you know, and they're all out on stage at the same time. And you're seeing this really weird interaction in these other sides of people. Yeah. And that doesn't really happen now. Yeah. And it was sort of, it was exciting because it was sort of an, and, you know, it was almost like anarchy. It was very unscripted and now it's all so scripted. It's all promotional machine completely. Yeah, you'd have someone who was in the real life, Amityville Horror, you know, they're a dinosaur, you know, crazy, crazy stuff. And exposing kids to just a lot of culture. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. That's one of the things that strikes me because, unfortunately, I tend to date guys that are half my age, is that I'm always struck by the fact that most of the culture that they're aware of is incredibly packaged by is incredibly short and incredibly packaged by a lot, a lot of money, you know, whereas in the 70s, I was exposed to a lot of culture that just came from all the fuck over the place. Oh, yeah, because it was anything, you know, we were getting weird on PBS, weird shows from Canada, we had foreign things because they're just trying to fill time. Yeah. And, you know, you're seeing film war movies because they were cheap. And you're seeing all these shorts and weird stuff because it was just we need to fill time and we're going to show whatever we can, stuff from, you know, 40, 50 years ago and you'd watch it. You know, I think a lot of people now are instantly dismissive of stuff in black and white or stuff that's more than 10 years old or anything like that. And it was entertaining and you were inadvertently getting an education, yeah, which was interesting. And I'm curious to see what, you know, people who come of age in the next 10 years, you know, almost like how you guys grew up watching MTV and then are making MTV and how that influenced what you were doing. People who are growing up watching the things now, what they start doing because they're, it's a very short, a very shallow pool, yeah, to draw from, I think, which could be good and bad. Well, there's definitely a short attention span. But, you know, like I said before, there's always big pluses and big minuses. I've been so impressed with, you know, the way that like, for example, Amy Schumer's most recent stuff is so smart and savvy the way it presents, you know, women's sorts of points of view. And, you know, I think that there's, there's a lot of that going on now, like, not just with women, but with gay people, trans people, there's like an incredible amount of unrest and upset about racism nowadays. And everybody has a voice now, which is kind of great. I mean, you know, like back to Norman Lear, he was really presenting sort of black issues, but it still took a successful white television producer who was a proven entity to say, Hey, I want to do this before it would be done. And now pretty much anybody can get their message out there. But sometimes it's gone almost full circle. Like Amy Schumer is a good example. She recently had a trans woman on her show. And, you know, me being, you know, I'm a straight white guy and I'm pretty ignorant to that stuff. But, you know, I don't know a lot about that culture. And so she's interviewed the person and it seemed pretty respectful and enlightening to me. I'm like, Okay, I'm learning some stuff. But there was an absolute outrage from people being like, this is patronizing or whatever. And that's an interesting new thing. Like, I don't obviously wasn't around like the Jefferson's was on or anything like that. But I in my research, I've never come upon people saying, this is actually the worst representation of us. We hate this, you know, it's all wrong. And now I feel like anytime anyone tries to present any sort of culture, subculture, represent any people on TV, it's never all positive. There's always a backlash. I totally, I'm totally on board with you on that. I think that like, for example, I watched that interview and was completely in in vibe with her and the way that she was to me, an interview, what's interesting about an interview is, are two people connecting? Are they are they, you know, seeing, you know, making good points together and on the same page? And she totally seemed to be having an enjoyable conversation with that. Yes. But, but yeah. Oh, okay, it doesn't fit. And I was glad to see that at least the advocate or maybe out or maybe both were like rushed to Amy Schumer's defense. But anyway, no, we're also living in the Sarah where the internet gives everyone so much of a voice and an immediate voice without having to vet or think about exactly that there's a real mob mentality sort of thing, especially in the realm of political correctness. Yes. It's my theory is in the 90s, political correctness started to become rather popular on college campuses. Right. And for good reason, I think, yeah. But in many cases, it could get a little bit out of hand. Yeah. It feels stifling. Right. And I think that I think largely it was because we we had a democratic president. Yep. And we felt kind of like, oh, okay, well, we can start criticizing liberals can start criticizing liberals now. Then Bush came into office and that just came to a total dead stance. We're like, no, that's the end. Yeah. We were wrong. We were very, very wrong. Yeah. Yeah. Now we've had another democratic president. And there's just this, you know, a lot of I think political correctness is at a higher peak than back then now. Well, it's almost the boys in the band. It's the self loathing self hating again, you know, but for for liberalism. Well, you know, now that is interesting. Like, like, for example, the boys in the band. And then later you mentioned cruising. Yeah, those two movies and then like basic instinct, you know, a lot of those movies were there was an outrage for those were you there was upset. But still it was, you know, in all of those cases, I think it was still a little bit more muted than now where like with the it's just the internet with Twitter, Facebook. It's just so easy for people to create these big brew hahaha. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so but no, I totally, you know, I, I don't know if you saw the the little back and forth, it was kind of a, you know, point counterpoint between Patton Oswalt and then Joe Garden. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, where Patton went off on Twitter, just kind of making fun of Noah Trevor Noah's. Yeah, people taking offense to jokes. Right, right, right. And then Joe Garden pointing out, yeah, I get that I respect Patton's point of view, but I also see how telling a joke, seeing how it hurts someone feelings and then learning from that is a valuable thing as well. I think that all of that is great. But I really do think that, you know, in order to be comedians, we really, we can't, I just don't want people to be stifled to the point where they don't feel like they can where they find themselves like watching everything they say. You can't watch, walk on eggshells and do interesting art. Yeah, even comedically or anything. I think that and I think some of this points to a lot of the things we've been talking about here is that the generation that is has grown up and over the last 20 years is not used to example, the old talk shows. Yeah, the old talk shows were more like that Amy Schumer interview, more like what we are doing. You know, David's he's just shooting the shit with these people. And they're used to interviews that are very curated. They're very, we're going to approve all the words you say. Yeah, even stunts like Drew Barrymore and Madonna swearing on Letterman, like that was all staged stuff that was stamped and approved by the network. So when you see real people talking like real people talk, it's jarring. Yeah. And when when people are see a more conversational style where people say things like you're going to say, they take it as this is what's in your heart. You and there's no context for anything now, which is another issue. Right. And stuff lasts forever. So you can go back and look at jokes Trevor Miller made right on Twitter. Right. Whereas if someone was, you know, when when Carson's becoming the new host of The Tonight Show, people aren't going back and watching tapes of every TV appearance he's ever done, you know, and they're right, right, right. Well, you know, you have Steve Martin, you know, guest hosting and they're not like, you were on Merv in 1974 and you made a joke about American Indians. You know, that wasn't we didn't have that access. And it's not that people are meaner now or that were more enlightened now, I don't think it's just it's it's lack of context. It's access to information without that context. And people who have access to everything and are familiar with everything without being familiar with anything. Yeah, I mean, you know, that's one of the reasons that I love this format, the podcast, right, is a show like this like like we can we can say whatever we want and we can go on for whatever whatever length about whatever we want. People are bound to like talk about whatever the hell on on Marin. And risk is like that as well, like even even though the stories that people tell on risk are they have thought them through and prepared them. You know, we also do radio style stories where a person might say something that they didn't think through so well, because it's more of an interview sort of thing. But anyway, the intent is that a person is really just expressing themselves as freely and thoroughly as they can. And so yeah, I think that that podcasting is fighting against that wave, you know, tell it. It's a way it's a way I think of showing how people really do talk and think. Absolutely. And and and I think stuff will swing around eventually has to you can only go so far. But it does make me question things when I'm I'm pretty liberal. I'm I'm pretty understanding. And I don't really I'm not that judgmental against people. And I feel like everyone should, you know, present their ways. But that the Schumer thing made me go, wow, I people were offended by that. Oh, you know what I mean? And like, or anything like that, I'm like, I would have had no idea. You know, I would have thought I was doing a good thing in not in a patronizing way because I've seen that too. You know, I've been to comedy clubs or or things where there's been an audition show and the the booker has said, oh, I put a black on the show and a gay on the show, you know, because they're like, look how diverse this is. And I'm like, that's that's worse than, you know, that's the most bad instead of just being like, here's the funniest people. Yeah. Oh, here's the funniest people in these categories. Yeah. Or whatever there's like, it's the black show at this festival or, you know, the woman. Right. Is that enough of a novelty? They really have a whole show. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, you know, so I think this stuff is going is going to come back around a bit. And I hope that it's not in a way where I see because at the same time, I see a lot of coming and stuff that's far more hateful than anything I've ever seen, where these one minory hateful, like really just mean spirited sort of the roast culture type jokes. Oh, right. And people seem okay with those more than interviews. And it's almost like because they're so, uh, so small, you know, they're sort of so encapsulated as these little jokes. But I'm like, but I would never say anything like that even as the joke because it's so hateful. Now, do you mean jokes specifically from roasts? Um, either specifically from roasts, or I think that the sort of rise of the last 20 year version of a roast, which is, which is very different from the Dean Martin Roasts in the, in the roasts that kind of we grew up on television watching. And I've never been a big roast fan has really, and those old ones were people who were actually friends. They were actually, you know, friends busting each other's balls. Yeah. And these are, what is the absolute meanest thing you can see? Yeah. Yeah. And it's not, and I see that a lot in culture now. Yeah. And I, and, and it's weird that the same people who are offended by, you know, say the Amy Schumer thing are often the same people who are okay with, you know, um, Tosh.0. Yeah. Or, and it's weird. It's, it's gone extreme in both directions. Yeah. It really is weird. You know, you know what really struck me as like one of the most interesting examples recently was when Joni Mitchell was interviewed by, uh, New York Magazine. And, uh, she was asked to, or, or somehow the conversation went on to, you know, in 1974 or 75, she, she dressed up in blackface as a, as a pimp on the, uh, like a, like a variety show or something. No, on the cover of one of her albums. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Now, you know, Joni Mitchell did a lot of work with people like Jocko Pistorius and Charles Mingus and, um, a lot of, of great jazz musicians. Yeah. She did a whole record with Mingus, just called Mingus, right? And so she's, you know, was a good friend and great admirer. She's not a Klansman. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Um, and I think, you know, if she was whatever she was, 30 years old today, yeah, she would know, okay, don't dress up in blackface, uh, as a way to like pay homage to your, you know, but again, no context. I mean, there's an episode to give me a break of the Mel Carter show, if you're familiar. Yeah. She adopts Joey Lawrence. And so her and Joey Lawrence, at this probably 1985, are performing, uh, me and my shadow at her church. And he shows up in blackface because he learned it from the Al Jolson records that she had. Uh huh. And the church is like, what the fuck? You know, like, but I'm like, no, that kid said, this is what I was presented with. I'm doing this show. What am I doing wrong? And it was that to me was a very interesting, uh, exploration of context and, uh, societal changes in a pretty light sitcom. Right. And you couldn't, you couldn't do that today. You couldn't do that. Right. Right. Right. Right. And that, that show, and it was funny still because it's fun, like a, a six year old misunderstanding and coming out at a black church in blackface, that's funny because it's, it's, it's someone missing the point out of a place of innocence. Right. And that's an interesting, uh, well, for humor, and then to come to discuss why is it wrong to do that? Right. Is something that's also very educational for, you know, a kid watching it. Just like Huckleberry Finn. Exactly. And I think if we lose those kinds of things, where you sort of, not candy coat, but the spoonful of sugar, you put it in a comedy and you put it in why, why it's wrong to do that. And not in a heavy handed way. Like you should never say that. Why? Just don't ever say it. But it's like, but what, where is that coming from? Is the thing we start to lose. Yeah. And that's the stuff that I hope comes back. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. That, that, that, I think you and I are both big fans of the randomness, the, the, you know what I always said? That when you watch the Oscars, it's so funny that, that every, like, I never watched the Oscars anymore, but I was always impressed that, um, once every other year or so, someone would say, this just fell through. Thank God. This fell through the cracks, right? That somehow this made it through the system, that somehow blue velvet got made, you know, despite everything. Yeah. When quality stuff gets made on television and the movies, and not quite as much now because it's easier to make stuff with less resources, it is not because of the system. It is, it's bite bite of it. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I'm, and I'm all for that. You know, the more stuff that's not so controlled by the big corporate money, the better, uh, and, and the more we're speaking, you know, freely, like we do on podcasts, the better as well. Yeah. I completely agree. And it's, and it's sort of the best of times and worst of times because you can do everything, but at the same time, everyone can jump on you for it, which is difficult. And you have to just sort of, hey, that's, that's going to happen. Yeah. Um, so given before we wrap up, is there anything else that you wrote down that you really, um, really jumps out as something that you really, uh, was something that stood with you from watching as a kid? Uh, the sleestacks on land of loss. Yes. Still terrifying and played by NBA, uh, basketball players. But yes, Kareem, I think Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was one of the sleestacks. Yeah. Because they were seven foot tall thin guys that could fit in these costumes. So a lot of NBA basketball players were in those sleestacks suits. But why on earth would they, like, wasn't green? Like, hey, well, and probably what they're like, hey, you want to wear this green dinosaur suit? Sounds good to me. Why not? Wait, wait, we have to figure out whether he actually played a sleestacks. Yeah. Yeah. It was. There were basketball players that were sleestacks. And I think Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was one of them. I'll look it up later, but I'm a hundred percent certain there were basketball players that were in the sleestack suits. Yeah. I do. I do love like probably puffin stuff is maybe one of my earliest, TV memories. So a lot of the cinematocross stuff was big with you. Oh, yeah. When I was real little and I used to have the puffin stuff record. Yes. Yes. Uh, oh, you know, did you see the movie? Well, I think that's what the record was of. Yeah. It was, it was, um, like for, I do remember mama cast singing the song different. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, and I think that that actually, you know, a lot of those records, like, like a song like different, which is all about what it's like to feel different. And the record free to be you and me, like there were so many great records and things like that for kids that were really encouraging of the idea of being diversity. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I, I definitely remember that. And, but also there was that sense of, I remember seeing the monkeys head. Yeah. Yeah. Around that same age. And you know, even, even stuff like, like, for example, God's bell, the movie God's bell is psychedelic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you could watch this as a kid and be like, that's perfectly fine. Yeah. Here's Putney Swope. Jesus Christ. Superstar. Yeah. You know, it's all like my Rebecca Ridge. Yeah. All these stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And a lot of it is, you know, like, or the yellow submarine, a lot of that is so, you know, like, like, right now, I'm in the process of sobering up, but not on the show. Not right now right now. He showed up. I found him this morning. No, no, I'm going through a dry stretch to improve my health. But, uh, but yeah, no, I, there was definitely also as a kid like this, like, gradual awareness in the 70s that, oh, yeah, a lot of this is influenced by drugs. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. The drug culture, uh, was almost permeating everything without knowing it. So the one you actually get introduced to it, you're like, oh, that makes sense. Right. Oh, we sure make a lot more sense now. Right. Oh, now I get the Beatles. Yeah. Okay. Okay. And the other people have that now where they're like, oh, there's not that revelation moment. That's almost like, I see. Right, right, right. I remember, um, getting stoned and listening to Dylan singing Desolation Row and being like, Oh, I get this. This makes perfect sense now. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like there's not a lot of people aren't doing Molly and being like, Oh my God. Oh my God. Maroon five makes so much sense now. Perfect. Well, it's really interesting to see where where it goes from here. I think, uh, and what, what if things swing back around or continue down that path? Well, let's check in in another decade. Yes. Yes. Well, we'll make an appointment 10 years from this day. We'll meet on this spot and we'll do a check in. Thank you so much Kevin to do it. Yeah. Very interesting conversation. Really good guy. Uh, if you have not heard the risk podcast, I recommend that you check that out. Uh, I will warn you though, it is not as PG as this podcast is, uh, so be, uh, be very adult about it. Everybody is rated R or more than that. Uh, it's at least density 17, but it's very entertaining and very, very good. Uh, also please, please, please, please contact me at TV guidance counselor at gmail.com or at TV guidance on Twitter. We have a TV guidance counselor Facebook page or you can reach me at can and I can read.com. Any of those ways, let me know what you like about the show, what you don't like about the show. If you have questions, if you have guest suggestions, I always try to get guests that people would like to hear on the show. I do my best to hound them until they do it. And we have new episodes every Wednesday, so make sure you tune back in then, but also subscribe to the show on iTunes because sometimes I have sneaky extra episodes that you wouldn't know about unless you subscribe. And if you do subscribe and you like the show, please rate and review the show. It is a huge help. It helps us get the word out about the show and, uh, helps me stay ad free. I don't know how it helps me stay ad free, but it sounds like a weird threat that I've that I've said to you. If you don't tell people, I'm going to have ads. That's actually not true. Anyway, had a great time this week. Hope you did too. And we'll see you again next Wednesday for a brand new episode of TV guidance counselor.
