- Wait, you have a TV? - No. I just like to read the TV guide. Read the TV guide. You don't need a TV. ♪ Scroll this planet ♪ ♪ Scroll this planet ♪ ♪ Scroll this planet ♪ ♪ Ah ♪ - Hello, everybody. Welcome to "TV Guidance Counselor." I am Ken Reed, as always, you're a TV guidance counselor, and we have an excellent episode today. My guest this week is the one and only Mr. Chris Kirkwood. You likely know Chris from "The Meat Puppets," the band he's been in for many, many years, along with his brother Kirk. I am a huge fan of that band. You, if you haven't heard the band, you probably know them from Nirvana's unplugged performance. They did two of their songs with Nirvana in the mid-90s and are just an incredible band. Chris is a really fascinating guy, fun guy, funny guy, a great artist as well, and does a podcast of his own, which we talk about here a little bit, which is appropriately titled "The Chris Kirkwood Podcast," along with his buddy Bill, who is another great guy and a filmmaker. And if you haven't checked that show out, definitely check it out. It's a really, really fun show. I'm a particular fan of the two-party with Mike Watt, who is another person who I very much enjoy. And I had a great time talking to Chris, as I said, I'm a huge fan of all the stuff that he's done over the years, and it was fun to just chat with him before their show here in Boston about old TV. So I think you'll enjoy it. If you've never checked the show out before and you're a fan of curses, I think you'll enjoy it maybe doubly. I don't know if that's possible. Everyone who's listening right now will like this show, I guarantee you. And if you don't like it, I'll give you your money back. The full price you paid for this, which was nothing. So here we go. Here's my episode with the running on me, Chris Kirkwood. (upbeat music) ♪ Yeah ♪ ♪ Yeah ♪ ♪ Oh ♪ ♪ Woo ♪ ♪ Ah ♪ (upbeat music) ♪ See that tail ♪ ♪ And she'll love her style ♪ ♪ See that tail ♪ ♪ And she'll love her style ♪ ♪ And she'll love her style ♪ - Chris Kirkwood, how are you, sir? - Hi, Dan, I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on the show. - You're quite welcome. I've been enjoying your podcast and I've always enjoyed your music. And so I thought, I'm gonna talk to Chris about television. - I think it's a great idea. It's a great idea. - So we were just talking about Portlandi, you were saying you had just sort of checked out for the first time. I brought some TV guys, if you want to flip her. - Oh, cool. I'm old enough to remember TV guys. - Did you guys get it every night? - Absolutely. - Yeah, I mean-- - Not all easily, you know. - I plan my week though. It's still published. - Everybody asked me if it's still published, but it's like such an obsolete thing that's still weirdly published. I kind of guessed based on your approximate age, which at what time did you watch in the most TV? I guess like late 60s and a year, early 70s. - I clearly remember spending an afternoon with a palamine. We raised home from school to watch the first episode of Sesame Street. - Oh, okay, how did you know it was on? - He knew. I'd never been anything but a follower, you know. - It was hip to Sesame Street. - And we both realized at the time that it was a little bit beneath this because that was like '68 maybe or something, you know. - So you're like-- - A seven, eight-ish, you know. - You're too cool for a lot. - Just a touch, it was just a touch aimed a little bit lower, but I mean, I remember that. Let's see, what else TV was? Early on, TV was always kind of there, you know. - 'Cause Kurt, how many years is Kurt older than me? - Kurt is 22 months older than me. - Oh, okay, some of that much. - I was born in October of 1960, so that gives you a time reference that you can. - So was he like, did he make the television and watching decisions? Is usually that there's the hierarchy of older sibling? - I mean, that was definitely the hierarchy of the older sibling. No, there was the torment of the older sibling. It wasn't just the hierarchy. It was like, he would like unscrew the light bulb in the bedroom. I would walk in, flip the light on, it wouldn't come on, and he would grab me from underneath the bed by my ankle, making me nearly fucking, you know. - He's making me stronger. - But he also, he also, I was a bed wetter. - Okay. - So let's get down to something here, you know. Yes, and-- - Okay, bunks. - Not bunks, it wasn't a bunk thing, but it was bed to bed, and it would be like, you know, suddenly I'd find myself incontinent, and Kurt, I would call upon Kurt, who wasn't that much older than me, but still was, you know, enough of being Kurt, him, you know, to be able to like, I'd just, you know, I'd be like, I've beed. - What do I do? - And he would take care of it, so-- - Oh, well, that's a true brotherly love. That's like, you know, they'll do it there. So a lot of scare it. You could just say it was like a time release of being scared from being pulled under the bed. - It's something like that, he owed me that. He owed me that much. - I think that's fair. - I was a handy thing to have on hand in a lot of ways, but he was aware of like, I don't know, it's interesting to like the, you know, the who people are in their family and whatnot. Kurt's always been really, really aware of himself in a different kind of a way, you know? - Okay, yeah. - And I've always been a bit of a-- - So he had like very strong likes and very strong things in your kind of life. - Definitely. - Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, the reason I'm in the arts is because of my brother for sure, you know, I would not be doing this on my own, you know? You know, I don't know what the fuck I'd be doing, but I wouldn't be this. - You guys are growing up in the desert in Arizona. Everybody kind of lives far apart. - Not really. No, not that far apart. I mean, Phoenix back then was a city. You know, we came from like, he and I were both born on Air Force bases in Texas, right? 'Cause mom and dad were together at the time. Dad was in the Air Force. And mom and dad were both from the Midwest. They're both Omehanians. - Oh, nice. - You know? So, and then shortly after that, mom and dad split. And mom wound up with another fellow who happened to be into horse racing. - Okay. - So we were on like the thoroughbred circuit. - Yep. - Through the Midwest, through the Southwest. - We'd call that being into the hosses. - Into the hosses, you know? - Way into the hosses. - In the hosses. - And we went up in Phoenix. 'Cause that's where we wound up, you know, with mom and her second husband, Paul. And by then it was, I mean, it was a city, you know? It was a town. It was a city, Phoenix, back then. It wasn't that big of a city, you know, compared to what it is now, you know? - But it's not the middle of nowhere or anything. - It's way in the middle of nowhere. Oh, it's totally completely in the fuck all. - I mean, there's no TV show set there or anything. Everything's on the West Coast, so the East Coast seem like New York or LA. - I think maybe Alice maybe? - Was Alice at Phoenix? - Or Flo or whatever or something? Mel's Diner. - Maybe. - Maybe in the middle of nowhere, yeah. - So there was a handful of things. One of the things that did exist though, in Phoenix, as far as TV is concerned. And this is something I'll absolutely happily talk about. It was a show called The Wallace and Ladmo Show. - Was this a local kids show? - It was a local kids show. And I think it still maybe stands as the longest running kids show, you know, ever. - Oh, really? - Yeah, 'cause it started in like the 50s and Wallace passed away last year. The guy, his name was Bill Thompson, actually. And his character was Wallace. And then there was Ladmo, who was his foil, right? Who was his sidekick, who was, no. He was a grown man. And his real name was Lad Quikowski. And the two of them, like Wallace wore like a Derby. And then Ladmo wore like a top hat. And he was the innocent. He was the nave, right? - I got your guess, right? - And then there was another guy who's still involved in the media in a big way, whose name is Pat McMahon. And he's still in like Phoenix. He's still does stuff, you know? And at the time, he played a variety of characters. - Okay, and this was, they should like cartoons. - They also, they had a handful of cartoons, you know? They had people come down to the studio and you go on the show. I vaguely remember going when I was really, really young. And there was a Ladmo bag that they gave out, you know? And it was some pretty far out stuff, you know? As far as like children's TV is concerned, 'cause they didn't play down to the audience in a way. And they were a formative thing to a lot of people, a lot of Phoenicians, you know? Like the main one that I can think of right up top of my head is Spielberg. - That was his formative show. - He grew up there, he spent enough time there to where he's definitely one of the people that, you know, has pointed out his love of the Wallace and Ladmo show. And it was a cool show. Like, I'll just run it down as quickly as I can. Pat McMahon played a variety of characters, right? Wallace would be kind of the straight guy. Ladmo was, like I said, the innocent kind of, you know? But he was a big gangly, you know? - Right. - Of, you know, some sort of Eastern European extraction. - With the man, child. - You know, exactly with a big top hat and it was just, you know, and then there was Pat McMahon, whose main character was Gerald, who was a spoiled brat. - Okay. - And who wore, like, these little knickers. - Short pants. - And he had, like, the blonde hair with like big glasses, you know, this little Dutch boy cut, you know? And he would actually, he would torment Ladmo and would cause trouble on the set with an actual monster that would come on. That only Ladmo would see. And then he would, and Ladmo would claim, you know, the monster did it, you know, and Wall Boy wouldn't believe him. But then Pat McMahon also played a variety of other characters, including, like, Captain Super, who was, like, a superhero. - Right, right, right. - He wore football pads and he would jump off a bench into the picture, you know? He played Marshall Good, like, a silent era actor, kind of down on his luck, who would hit Wall Boy up for some money at the end of the night. - And this is like smart stuff. - It was smart stuff. It was bitchin' smart stuff and it was out in the desert, right? And Phoenix was a lot smaller than, and I wasn't aware of the fact that it's like, you know, I'm out in the desert necessarily at the time. - Yeah, you don't want anything else to compare to it. - It's still a very American experience, right? Because it's, you know, people of European extraction winding up, you know, on this new continent, you know, forging their way. People that are from there have been there forever. No, they've been there a long time, you know? And they still have their thing. The Native Americans from around there, you know? And then the Hispanics as well, because, you know, those people have a rich and deep history of the place. - Did you get, like, Spanish language channels and stuff when you were growing up? - Oh, there was all over the place, right? - Okay, 'cause that, we only got that up here in, like, the '80s. - No, that was on. - So you're getting, like, Lucha Libre and that kind of stuff? - You know, that stuff was probably on. One of the things about my family's experience is that our grandfather on our mother's side decided to go, like, in the late '50s to Mexico. - Okay. - And forage, you know, ahead. - He lived down there. - He had a house, he had a house down there. He also had some hotels. He had a, you know, down there and whatnot. So we spent a lot of time down in deep Mexico, in Acapulco, actually, so. - Would you watch TV down there? - I would watch some TV, you know, and I was a lot more fluent in Spanish at that age. - Right, it's easier to learn that stuff then, too. - Sort of, you know, and I still am pretty, pretty fluent, you know, but-- - 'Cause I saw some bizarre, like, a show that just ended the show that was on for 60 years was Sabado Higante. - Oh, Sabado Higante, gigantic Saturday, 60 fucking years. - What a bizarre show, I remember I flipped it on one day and it was just a guy in a tuxedo yelling and there was a little person churning butter to, like, techno music in a girl in a bikini. I'm like, this is true entertainment, right? - Definitely. - 'Cause he had nothing like that, yeah. - One of my favorite places, Mexico, you know? I mean, just, it's such a cool-cut culture. The art from there is so bad else. - Oh, yeah, yeah. - You know, and the food, forget it, you know, just a really, really neat place. And Arizona used to be a part of Mexico until the Spanish, or the Mexican-American war, whatever the hell-- - It wasn't that long ago. - It wasn't that long ago at all, you know? And still, so there's a heavy, you know, Hispanic vibe in Phoenix, stuff at all, you know? So, but, you know, Phoenix was, you know, that, like we said, like, white-wise, it was a new place, you know, that people-- - So everyone was somewhere else, you were like the first generation Phoenicians? - Yep, you know, or second even, you know, my little sister was born there, my brother's children were born there, you know, but Kurt and I weren't, you know, so. And Wallace and Labmo, though, that's a cool thing. As far as TV is concerned, that's as cool as anything. You should check it out. You should check it out. It's completely online, you know? - The saddest thing, the thing I learned about local TV and I, you know, we both kind of come from the punk rock world of those sort of local scenes is I almost equate them the same way. So in the early days of TV, everything was very local and these people were kind of making it up as they went along. And they were doing amazing stuff that way 'cause they didn't know any better. - They were on every day, you know? And those things, those guys were so far out that they, like Pat McMahon, the guy that I was talking about, they had bands, they had these different bands. He had a band called Hubcap in the Wheels that I think knocked the Beatles off the chart at a particular point in Phoenix, you know? And to the degree that it had the networks coming after him specifically to be like a talk show host. Yeah, like a talk show host kind of a guy, you know? And he decided to not bail on the show in a way. You know, they didn't really want the rest of it in a way or so. - Well, he's probably the king of, you know, it's a big fish, small punk kind of thing, too. - But for me, he was the lesser fish compared to those two dudes locally, you know what I mean? - Sometimes it's better, you can go right under the radio. - And he's done well, you know? Pat's done well. Wallace and Ladmo, you know, Bill Thompson and Lad Quikovsky are both gone now, you know? But Pat's still around and there's still a player in the Phoenix scene. There's a play, actually, that some guys wrote that gets into the story of those guys, you know? - Really? - That's such a weird local thing that like we would never, I mean, when I talk to younger people now, they don't realize that every town had these local guys, you know, a monster host, you know, hosted monster movies or-- - Totally. - Like Gibby's dad. Like, you know, who I saw in New York the other night was Gibby Haynes, right? One of my, you know, I love Gibby, you know, dear, dear pal, Gibby from the butthole surface, everybody knows Gibby is. And his dad was a talk show host in the Dallas area, I'm pretty sure it was Dallas, if I'm wrong, you know, I'm wrong, but it's definitely Texas. And he was a talk show host, a children's host, children's TV show host. - This makes perfect sense. - Called Mr. Peppermint. - Excellent. - It was fucking insane. - It was real man. - And I actually saw that show a few times, and he'd be like, "Hello, it's Mr. Peppermint." And he had a little squirrel, and he'd be like, "Hello, Mr. Squirrel, hello, Mr. Peppermint." - Did you see it before you knew Gibby? - No, it was close, you know, it was like still on the air. By the time we were, you know, getting around the country and being able to, you know, learn who was doing what. So, yeah, that was like my such a pivotal Phoenix experience for me, you know? - And you were aware that it was a Phoenix thing, it was the local show, like you knew it was-- - I didn't, I mean, I knew the rest of the world was out there, but Wallace and Labmo was definitely a special thing, you know? - This is for us, this is here. - And Phoenix is still aware of who they were, you know, and what they did for the place in their own way, you know, to the degree that they did. - What was the first time you guys, that you remember that you guys were on TV? I mean, I think everyone probably remembers the first time, you know, mainstream TV guys probably on the unplug thing, but, you know, I know you made some videos during the SST days that were like one, 20 minutes, a couple times. - They were so completely homemade, I mean, those were, you know, talking about the Hispanic culture in Phoenix, there's a town called Guadalupe that's a suburb of Phoenix, and it's actually Gaki Indians who live there, and we were making one of our videos, you know, and making one of our videos back then meant that we borrowed one of our parents' video cameras. - Right, right, right. It was an actual video. - It was totally, you know, on the cheap, and we were just like, and we lived near there, right? So we're driving through town and they have some, some kind of cool little architecture, and it's kind of an impoverished part of town in a way, you know, but it's also a very personal part of town, you know, and there's some really good food there and stuff. But one of the things about those people is they're not that into you, filming them, right? You know? - Well, there's a lot of Native American culture stuff about like-- - And in Hispanic stuff too, where it's like soul stealing to film them, this kind of stuff, and you just like, "Hey, man, you know, we're all chill, you know, "and the next thing you know, we're actually being chased "through town by some of the locals," right? Where it's like, "Okay, we're good, we're out now." - That's a good video plot. Being chased through town by so many things they're showing your soul. - It's one of the only videos, I mean, it's the only video I know of that definitely features my brother's kids, Catherine and Elmo, right, right, right, when they were teeny-weeny. - Right, right. - And there's some scenes like in my backyard that the kids are in, and now Elmo plays with us and has for a while, so all these years later. - Does he ever get that out and try to embarrass him watching it? - You know, I haven't seen that thing in ages, it was for some-- - Did you see it when it aired or anything like that? - Maybe, maybe sorta, you know? We were always such outliers in a way, you know? The punk rock scene that let us be a part of it, you know, was definitely not like the TV side of stuff. - Oh no, absolutely, I mean, you had those target videos, I think was the only thing we would get where a target would do like a black flag video or you'd have to send away mail order, you know, through like the SSD catalog, get like a black flag concert movie or a flipper or the big boys or something, you know? - Oh, the big boys are so good, oh geez. And, you know, it just happened to do with, I don't know, with the money guys knowing how to make money off. - Right, right, right. - You know, 'cause I remember when MTV happened and right away it went to like a way more clothes, sort of a thing, you know what I mean? Way more dress up than I like, I'm just not that cool, you know? - You just wanna get on stage like you would walk around, it's not as theatrical for you. - Yeah, and it's not, you know, I'm good for them to be able to do that and stuff like that. But, you know, the first time we went on TV was probably like a local show of some sort or something, you know? And I think maybe my first girlfriend had recently broken up with me here, so I think that's a really good frame of mind for it. - I recall like trying to touch her through the camera with my eyes. - I'm in your house right now, even though you don't want me to be. Good motivation though, good motivation. So what do you, so you were just saying now that you watch, like you just watched Portlandi the first time and Steve Jones popped up in it. - I didn't realize it was him until the end of the show. - Oh yeah, he looks a little different now. - So don't we all, you know? Let's not get into that. I have a great face for radio. So, you know, yeah, I just started watching that show and just incidentally at home, you know, like just like a month or two ago. - Right. - And then the next thing you know, because of the podcast thing, like I'm doing now, now I'm a podcaster, which is like, we were talking about my pal Bill talked me into doing. - Right, right. - Which I managed to actually do, right? - Yeah, and you're great, yeah. - I go from my house in, I still live in Phoenix, right? Out to Los Angeles, to where he set this stuff up and I'm talking to people and one of the guests that I had on, I was telling him it was the Hayden sisters, Charlie Hayden's kids, triplets, and Petra, one of the sisters, like after the show, after we did our little thing, said, hey, a friend of mine, by the way. - Yeah. - Would like to be on the show, right? And it's like, it happens to be Fred Armerson. - Yeah. - And I was like, well, that's pretty fucking cosmic. That's so right up my alley in terms of, I just suddenly discovered the show that people have been aware of for a while and is doing, you know, is a cool show. But I was aware of that guy before that, you know? - Yeah, did you watch that in a while? - I've seen him enough, and then like his drum instructional video and just, you know, one of those people that's like, God, you make it look easy, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And you said you did stand up comedy? - Yeah, I do stand up, yeah. It was in a band for about six years and we started like Dropkick Murphy's events like that and then I had doing stand up for about 10 years now. - Damn. - I know a lot of musicians who have gone into doing stand up and they all think the same thing which I thought too, which was, it's just like when you talk in between songs and everybody laughs and it's not at all. - I never, I always fail talking between songs. - Okay. - It always comes off stilted and invariably invokes a negative reaction out of my brother, right? - Right, right. - He'll come over and scream at me, right? 'Cause we're about, you know, we're, you know, it just doesn't come off smooth. But after the show or something, - Yeah. - There's that humor point where, you know, I mean, already you're talking to people that know you. - Yeah, they already know you like it when they wanna talk to you. - You know? And then it's kind of like a defense mechanism in a way to kind of just get them laughing. - Oh yeah, it's a good distance point to get them. - But to like, actually get up on stage and try to be funny. I don't know, it's like podcasting. I mean, I didn't think, and I still don't know if I can podcast, I'm still-- - I mean, you're doing a pretty good job based on, you know, what I've heard and right now, 'cause it's just talking that the stand up is a little bit different 'cause it's strangers, you know? And when I first started doing stand up, I was opening for bands, 'cause those are the people that I knew and that's the worst 'cause those people do not wanna see, you know, they wanna talk to girls and listen to music or whatever. So it was a little trial by fire when I first started, for sure. - But what a great opener for a band, a comedian, you know? - I don't think so, I mean, that's-- - As a band, I would like that, you know? - Yeah, I mean, and I definitely, like maybe once twice a year old and for bands and it never goes well, but you know, it's always terrible and I tell them, I'm like, you know, they're not gonna be into it because listening, seeing a live band is more of a passive audience thing and seeing a comedian is more active 'cause you actually have to listen. Like to everything they say and you can't talk and it's not as social, so it's a weird dynamic shift that people have. You know, it's like difference between watching TV and watching a play, basically. You can't talk during a play, but if you're in a living room, chat to your family, whatever, and it doesn't really interrupt it. - Yeah, I can see that. I remember back in the maybe late '60s, more likely, the early '70s, I went and saw the Harlem Globetrotters. - Oh, nice. - Right? And for the opening act of that evening's show, and I mean, it was in a big, you know, it was like in the Colosse, and we were in Phoenix and stuff, and it was a great night. Metal like lemon, it was that era, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And for the opener, they had a contortionist, right? - Yeah. - Why not? - So you're in a basketball arena. You're in the basketball arena, like the sun's used to play in the Phoenix Suns, you know? And so it's a big ass, like, pretty open space with the basketball stage and all that kind of stuff, and they just had this little, you know-- - Getting in a box. - A little setteet, that's a little thing out there, and this guy came out, yeah, exactly, you know? Like, put his legs up to the degree that it's like, man, you know, you can lick your butt all the way down. - Yeah, what are you even here for? You should be at home. - You should be at home. - I'd be at home, if I were you. That's what you-- - One thing that was like, that show that's incredible and real people and all that stuff. They were like, every other week was a contortionist. - Right. - For the show, it's like-- - 'Cause it's circus arts. - You know, and when it chill opener, right? You know, how chill it is to have it open like that. - I would always rather see a show that was more like a variety show, like even, you know, talking about the early days of punk rock, where you're saying you guys are an outlier. Like, now you go to a show and you have the headliner band and two bands that sound like junior versions of the headliner band for the most part. - In a way, yeah. - But, you know, you could have you guys on a show with like, big black, you know-- - Oh, the variety was so cool. It's what allowed us to get out of Phoenix, for sure. - Right, right. - We happened to, we happened to, Derek, our drummer, knew some people from Phoenix that had moved to Los Angeles. - Okay. - And there was a band called The Consumers that had moved over there. There was a guy, Jimmy Gercetti, who goes by Don Polls, who was the drummer for The Germs, you know. Some of these guys had moved over to Los Angeles and through Derek knowing them, we wound up going over to Los Angeles and playing some shows, you know. - Which is now the heart of Hollywood, which is really weird, probably going from Phoenix. - It was cool, back then. I mean, it was definitely different, you know. We're really young, but it was also kind of like an embracing scene in a way, you know. Where you'd have these different kind of feels, you know. And we could bounce around from field to field in a way. - Really like more accepting, they didn't have like a-- - They weren't that accepting, but the show still happened that way, you know. - Yeah, yeah. - We were accepting. - The bookers were accepting. - Exactly, they were like, you know, some junkie that like had found some gay bar, you know what I mean? - They're not doing anything on Tuesdays. - 'Cause I remember watching as a kid, there was a show called Night Flight on the USA Network that used to show, they'd show like another state of mind. Or they'd show this thing called New Wave Theater. - Right. - This was actually, you know. Like the screamers were playing and stuff like that. And, you know, growing up around here, that stuff blew my mind. You know, like I would never been exposed to that kind of stuff or like shows like The Young Ones, which is where I first saw the damned and that kind of stuff. And that sort of would set me on the path to all the stuff that I liked, you know. And I can't imagine living in a world without that stuff. Like how you would find out about things. - Well, I think that's maybe what we were lucky enough to be a part of was just that second or third wave of punk rock. - Right. - You know, that was its own cool little youth movement. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, it just flat out. - It was time and a place. - And it was pre all the high tech stuff that we have now. You know, so there just wasn't any of that kind of, you know, electronic communication that happens now. - You could build more, like it could be a simple. - And flyers meant something now. - Oh yeah. - It wasn't, you know, you're actually letting people know through a piece of paper, you know, that something is happening. - I touched this and we're playing a show. - You know, and I drew the fucking thing, you know, or whatever, you know, somebody else did, we made this thing, you know, and it just, it was a different kind of a thing. But it was definitely a somewhat communal kind of a thing in a way that wasn't, I don't think it was as far reaching in a lot of ways as the hippie thing that happened, you know. - 'Cause it was a little more angry. I think it was a little more angry. - It was way more angry. - Way more fucking, well, maybe not more self-destructive. I mean, plenty of hippies definitely. - Hippies kinda definitely burned out pretty badly. - They, you know, and, but so did the punk rockers. - Oh yeah. - The motherfuckers, you know, they didn't burn out, they fucking died. - Oh yeah. - But it's like, Jesus man. - Yeah. - Well, did you ever see any of the, like the, the punk rock scare stuff at the time? Like that episode of "Queen Z" or there was like a famous episode of "Chips" where they were like, warning. - Parents. - Oh right, oh yeah, totally. - The tears of punk rock at this time. I mean, I can only imagine what it was, you know, lengthy. It didn't reach me, you know what I mean? Because I'm also coming from like jazz fusion, you know what I mean? - Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - A fusion of jazz in rock, jazz rock, fusion, you know. And plus I was, you know, I was way into like the dead. - Yeah, yeah. - I mean, and I got into playing music from seeing the movie "Deliverance." - Right. - You know, I saw that movie at like 13 and decided that I had to get a banjo. - I mean, there's a lot worse things you could decide after that movie. - You know, whatever, you know. Now I didn't leave those behind, you know. Those just haven't been quite as public. - Yeah, but you're like, I need to get a banjo and start playing music. - And you do have a pretty mouth? - Yes. - You know, so-- - Did you see that in the theater of that movie? - I did, I did. I saw it. You know why I saw it? It was because my brother had been assigned the Anthony Burgess book, "The Clockwork Orange." - "The Clockwork Orange." - It's cool. - Yes, right, and so, and that's what's his face. The director, Kubrick, Kubrick, who's such a badass, you know? - Oh yeah. - So they'd ask, like, the kids to go, you know, my brother's class, whatever, to go see "The Clockwork Orange" and playing in tandem with it was "Deliverance." - Is this in a drive-in? - No, no, it was at the theater of "Mom" Took us in. - Double feature of "Deliverance" and "The Clockwork Orange" - And "Clack of Orange." - And "Clack of Orange." - He's 13, he's 14. - And Kirk was, like, 15, probably, you know. - You see it with your mom? - Yeah, "Mom" Took us. - Was it awkward? - No, no, our mom was cool, you know. - Okay, 'cause I would imagine that would be-- - I don't know, I mean, you know, our mom was a force of energy under herself. No, she wasn't a progressive, definitely. - No, was she offended by those movies? - No, no, she wasn't like that. - No, not, you know, I mean, you know, their movies. - Our mom was a real neat lady, you know, in a lot of ways. A big lover of, like, things, you know, creatures and stuff. You know, I had a monkey as a child. - A spider monkey? - No, he was actually a squirrel monkey. - Squirrel monkey, did it bite you? - No. - Everyone had one that had one that got bit. - The spider monkeys seem more bitey. - But the monkeys are more bitey. - They seem more bitey. - And my mom got bit bitey. There used to be a candy around here called Charleston Chew. And you could send in for stuff with the wrappers. And one of the things you could mail order was a freaking spider monkey. They would mail it to you. - See, the world has changed, you know? - It's huge, quite a bit. - You can't go into, I don't know if you can still go into a pet store and get a monkey these days. - No, you definitely can't. - You know? - You definitely can. - I mean, I like when around and found my monkey. - You got it at a pet store? - Yeah. - How long did you have it? - I named him Abner. - Okay. - I had Abner for probably two and a half years. - Okay. - And it was one of the great mysteries of my life. One of the great pains of my life, one of the great sadnesses of my life, was one night Abner didn't come home. I'd let him run around, you know? We grew up on a small plot of land, but with like horse privileges and stuff. - Okay, yeah. - And our mom, Vera, was so critter-centric in a way, and we said the things that we had a lot of, like animal life in our lives, right? And I would let Abner run around during the day, and he would come home at night, you know? And one night he didn't come home. And, you know, I was concerned or concerned or whatever it is. At that age, the Abner episode probably happened. It was probably right before I saw deliverance. You're somewhere around, it was probably around 12. - Okay, sort of had a full year. - And the next morning I went, you know, got up and went and looking for him and found him on the back patio. He'd made it home, right? He'd made it home, and he was lying there dead. - Oh, no. - You know, pool of his own blood, with his right arm gone at the shoulder. - So we got a guy in a cell cell. - I have no idea, it's a mystery, it's one of the great mysteries of my life. Who knows, who knows, what could catch him for a while? - Oh yeah, coyotes and stuff, but they're wolves. - There's coyotes, but I mean, he was, there's no wolves, there's no wolves in Phoenix, but there's definitely coyotes, there's pigs of a sort, have lina, you know? And they're not like wild boars, they're little tiny, kind of little pigs, but I mean, none of those things could've caught him in a while, you know? 'Cause he's just so quick, so I just don't know, you know, so. - That's horrifying, was that the weirdest pet you had? - That was one of the coolest pets I had, definitely. I grew up with a lot of stuff, I had a hawk, I had a, it was a kite hawk, his name was Thor, and he wasn't very personable. - No, they're not the friendliest though, and I was weird, a tegu growing up. - You had a tegu lizard? - Yeah, I had a tegu lizard. That's fucking cosmic. - Very unpleasant. - They're not very friendly either. - No, this was a black tegu, which I guess is like the more dangerous kind, they can like break a horse's leg with their tail on, so my dad grew up really poor. - It's tense, I've never met anybody else that had a tegu. - We had this tegu, man, it was at eight rats, so one day, we come home from, you know, we're out doing errands or something. We come home and I see my dad, runs to the top of the stairs, and he goes, get out of here, get out of here, and then he runs off, and then my uncle runs after him, and then we see the tegu at the top of the stairs which is hissing, 'cause they had a couple beers and decided to give it a bath, which is a bad idea, and so we just had to come home like a day later, and this thing is vicious. - How do you get the phone cards coming? - I named my tegu Pierre. - That makes sense, so. - You know, we had iguanas, tegus, gerbolas. - I never had a gerbola. - That was a weird one. - Yeah. - Sakes. - You know, and I never went that far into the, what are they called, reptiles? - The reptile kingdom? - They're not great pets, they're a little born. - We had a raccoon, pansy. - They're cool. - They're cool. - We had skunk, that was great. - A skunk, that's nice. When you'd have to get their little stinks acting. - Yeah, yeah, the raccoons get their little hands. - Oh, they're so cool. - Yeah. - 'Cause he was a delightful creature. I loved her. And we had horses and that kind of crap. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're probably not inside watching a lot of TV if you get all this nature kind of around you. - But I was always there, you know, at four, four thirty, whenever it was, that Wallace and Labmo came on. - Right, that was your show. You had to see that every day. - It was the kind of thing that I came on. And, you know, our whole, our personal life, like it was kind of strange, you know? - Right, right. - 'Cause moms, subsequent husbands and stuff, you know. - Right. - And it would be like, is it a free zone for TV time? - Right, man. - Which the stepfathers truck in the driveway or not. - Right, right. - It wasn't fucking Wallace and Labmo, baby, you know. - 'Cause would he be capitalizing the TV? Or was it just like no TV? - No, he would capitalize our time. - Yeah. - It would be chore time. - Oh, I see. - There was chores involved, you know? - Yeah, it's a new time if he wasn't there. - Yeah, I mean, TV's such a great salvation for so many kids where it's like, you could just kind of get away from whatever. And it's, and it's consistent too. I mean, that's what it was for me. Like, I'd get the TV guide and I'm planning my week. And no matter how awful the week is, I'm like, you know what though? This show that they told me is gonna be on Wednesday night at eight. - It would be. - It's gonna be there. - And we grew up with it. - And we grew up with it too. - Definitely TV was a big thing back then, you know? And it was just the three networks. - Oh yeah. - And there was KPHO, which was Wallace and Labmo, which was the local affiliate in Phoenix, you know? And there was just certain things that we watched fairly consistently, you know? Like the Johnny Cash Show, you know? - Oh yeah, yeah. All those varieties shows in the '70s were huge. - You know, and Disney, Jesus. - Wonderful world. - The yearly magic of the Wizard of Oz. - Oh yeah, God. - It was a huge deal 'cause you couldn't rent it. - No, it was like the only time you could see it. - Oh, you know? That was like a waited for and magically wonderful thing. The definitely TV, you know, allowed us. And I was a TV kind of a kid too, you know? Like Kurt was, Kurt's always been a little more together than me in some ways, you know? So I discovered early on, like the advent of the, of the deep fried Cheeto. - Oh yes. - Now with the crackly crunch, whatever the hell, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And, you know, how well Doritos TV went together. - Oh yeah, just sitting there. I remember when Cool Ranch came out and I was like, it's gonna be a great year, everybody. It's gonna be a great year. So is there anything you watched as a kid that you re-watch now or like is like a comfort show that you're like-- - The Andy Griffith Show is still one of my favorite places of all time. - Okay, I love that. - You know, it's perfection in TV as far as I can tell, you know? Don Knotts is so unendingly brilliant. - Yeah. - Andy Griffith is incredible, you know? - Yeah. - The writing up until it went to color, you know? - Right. - Once Knotts left, right? - I think people always split it too, pre-stroke and post-stroke Floyd. - Oh, exactly. - It's how I split it a lot. - But, you know, I love my post-stroke Floyd, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And that speaks volumes about what kind of a guy Andy Griffith was, obviously, you know? - That's like, are you a glass half full half empty? You're pre- or post-stroke Floyd the Barbara? - You still walk, you still Floyd the Barbara, you know? - Did you ever see SC-TV? - Oh, all the time. - Yeah. - Whenever they do the Andy Griffith stuff. - Let's go. - Andy, you always do post-stroke Floyd. - Just today, just today in the hotel, I caught about half of Best of Show. - Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Or Best in Show, whatever it is, you know? - Yeah. - And that's Gene Levy wrote that with, what's his phrase? - Christopher Gast. - Man, you're getting all the names, dude. I am not on top of all my names. - No, I know who we were talking about. - Exactly, you know, and guest directed all those things. So, that's what, Maureen O'Hara, Catherine O'Hara. - Captain O'Hara. - Maureen O'Hara, close. - I thought you wanted to win. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Close enough. Yeah, those people are amazing, you know? And that, Saturday Night Live, when it first came out, you know, that stuff, I remember seeing Andy Kaufman for the first time. - Which was mine, but I mean, you didn't say anything like that. - Minebending, Robin Williams, you know? - Yeah. - Stuff where it's just like, what the fuck, Belushi, all that stuff, you know? - I mean, there's, everyone I talk to that, you know, is in the punk rock, especially like the early days of the first, second wave in America, a lot of them end up also kind of being sort of 70s comedy nerds, too, because kind of one of the things that ended up really connecting with them is like Carlin Records, or like, Andy Kaufman. - Good stuff, you know. - All this stuff and that? - Acidhead comedy, you know? I mean, Carlin was a professed acid head, you know? - Yeah, yeah. - And I think it really showed. - So when you're seeing them on Saturday Night Live, you know, he's hosting the first show, you're like, weird, this is like a major network that like my parents watch Wide World with Sports On, and they're getting this guy on. - And it's just goofy as hell in a way, you know? Some of the stuff, you know, these guys went on to be these pillars of the comedic, you know, world, and that was TV, you know, that was TV. That's like, sitting at home. That's the, you know, watching TV. - Right, but you wouldn't know what you're gonna get in a lot of ways, and that was a good thing. - Yeah, no, that thing, that show, yeah, I don't know, I still watch TV. - Was there a show that you absolutely hated that you watched every week? Or did like Kurt have a show that made you watch? - I can't remember, you know, I'm pretty, I was always pretty lax in terms of like, you know, my content and stuff. - Kinda go with it. - But I've definitely noticed like through the years, like stuff has gotten real, real popular that I haven't been aware of at all. Like Portlandia, you know what I mean? Where I was kinda like, I knew it that existed, you know, but I never really watched it. - It's easier for us to go under the radar 'cause there's so many channels now and that you can watch whatever. - You know what I recently discovered? There's a show I'll just mention real quickly, Doc Martin. - Oh, yeah, yeah, from the UK. - I just love the hell out of it. - Yeah, yeah. - So charming, it's this lovely little town that, you know, and I, you know, now there's the magic of the smartphone. - Oh, yeah. - So I realized, I can ask my phone to tell me what actual town this is, and, you know, look at it like through a satellite, you know, - You basically have a road track tricorder in your pocket that you can do this stuff. - It's intense. - Stuff has changed so much, and let alone like garage brand even, you know, where you can like, you know, you can-- - I mean, stuff that you guys would have had to pay for a couple of dollars to go into a studio. - And we had a, you know, we got to the point where we had our own little studio, you know, at home, and all the different things that I had, you know, would have to be acquired separately, and now it's all just right in the palm of your hand. - Yeah, and your phone, I mean, like this show, I mean, I used to work in radio, and I can do more with, you know, a thing the size of a pack of cigarettes than I could with like two studios. - It's intense. - And TVs the same way, I mean, people can make their own stuff and get it out there, and also you can watch anything you want from whenever you want. - And they do, that exactly, you know, it's all right there, and then you can see other people like falling in their faces, left and right, or whatever, you know, and horrible things, too. You can see these incredibly, like, well, that's not how I'm not that. - Any bizarre thing you want to see, you can see it. - And then there's the cutting edge of the technology as well. Like, I like to draw, you know, and the band has always had this, you know, drawing-ish, like painterly side-tores. - You did a lot of like the album covers. - Most of the actual covers in the front parts are usually curt, 'cause he's more, he actually gets into acrylics and stuff, but there's all, there'll be some doodly stuff that'll mean Derek's stuff as well, Derek always drew. You know, so to see the things that go on these days, just in terms of like animation, it's just absolutely mind-fucking, you know, where it's like, "Fuck God." - Were you a big cartoon, guys, kid? - Definitely, definitely, definitely love my cartoons, and then got turned on to like the '60s underground comic thing, like Robert Crumb, I'm a huge, huge crumb. - Oh yeah, and then all the Ralph Basky stuff, probably, too, like, what are you, the Fritz Kat movie? - I like that, but then I found out that Bob wasn't cool. - Was that cool with it? - So I was like, kind of prejudiced against it. - Yeah, yeah, I will not see wizards, you know? - I did see wizards, though, and I really, really dug the crap out of that. - Wizards was a cool movie. - Wizards was very far out, you know? I mean, Wizards was like, I probably saw that, like, on LSD at the local art house. - Kind of the only way to see it, you know? - It was like a little art house cinema that existed for a second, where I saw, like, Satiricon. - Oh, yeah. - And Bob, all stone is fogged. - Right, like, is it like-- - Is it like on a college campus or something like that? - It was near the college in Tempe, actually, near ASU. - So you see him, like, heavy metal and Rocky Horror, they're playing-- - Stuff like that, right, you know? - And I haven't even gotten laid yet, but I'm getting my fucking brain re-arranged. - El Topo! - Oh, El Topo, rule! That was the shit, and then I found out, what, Jerry Garse, you like that? No, I'll bet he did. - Perfect, did you feel like you had to suppress the Grateful Dead love at the time? Would you get found out? - No, not at all. - Okay. - No, no, no, that's the thing that we've done is just gone ahead and gone, well, everybody can definitely kiss our ass in terms of suppressing fucking any-- - Right, right, this is what we like, fuck off. - We just don't exc-- I mean, it just didn't matter, it just happened to be something that I really dug. I mean, they were one of the bands that made me be able to get into rock and roll in a way, you know? Them, the Beatles, of course, Zappa, you know? People that, well, it wasn't so obviously just kind of like this ego thing or something, or like an attempt. I mean, I just felt dorky, look at I wear glasses, you know what I mean? I was not gonna be in Led Zeppelin, you know? - You're not even Coverdale, you know? - So, for it to be something that was-- still, I love the colorful side of rock, you know? But then also, like I said, I got into, you know, bluegrass as a kid, you know? And then from there, I got into like jazz, you know? And the '70s jazz was really some tasty players, you know? And you can still easily reach back to some of the stuff that had happened, like the Bebop guys, where you're talking about fucked off artistic weirdness that's exceedingly popular as well. - Oh, yeah. - And people are like flinging themselves around 'cause they're all gonna go off to war and die, you know? And shit, it's like-- - Nothing matters. - It's a fucking hardcore screenshot. - Or they just got back in their brains completely. - Oh, they're not. - You don't know what I'm saying. - We won, we won. - You know? - Think we won? - You know, and, you know-- - Do you see like 200 motels and all that stuff? - Oh, totally, oh yeah. - And I saw Zappa live a few times, you know? And just stuff that let me, you know, be into rock more. - Yeah, you know? In the rock more where there was just like a little, a more like experimental element in a way. - Yeah, it wasn't as regimented. I mean, even like The Monkeys, which was as mainstream as it gets at the time. In season two, they're like, we got five minutes left at the show. Here's Frank Zappa. - Totally. - And they're putting them on TV? No one would do something, like whoever a Frank Zappa would be now, which I don't think we would have, but you know, that wouldn't just happen. You know, unlike some mainstream show. - And then it happened to us years later, right? Where suddenly the biggest fan in the fucking world, in Nirvana, right, turns out really, you know, liked us and like, you know, our contemporaries and stuff, but we're still around and actually use their new fan popularity like The Monkeys suddenly had to expose their fans and everybody else to something that they dug, you know, in a way. - And then you did two out of die was the record that came out right after that? - Yeah, then we did two out of die right after that. And you know, and that allowed all the business people to take something as, I mean, Zappa said it, you know, no commercial potential, you know what I mean? In a way, you know, that's a little more, you know, on itself, you know, actually able to, you know, get to that point where I was kind of like, I was always kind of like, yeah, but, you know, I, - I think it's good commercial. - I could funk. - Yeah, yeah, I could play anything you want. We can do it. - You know, is it about the clothes? - Did you guys do a lot of Palooza? - I don't remember. - The only lot of Palooza experience I had was we were making our first major label record, Forbidden Places, we were making it a fucking capital. You know what I mean? - Oh yeah. - So we were spending a hundred times as much. - Right, right. - As we've ever made before, we're working with Pete Anderson. - Yep. - Dwight Yokem's producer and guitar player, right? Who we'd met years before, when Dwight was coming up, opened for us at McCabe's, his guitar shop in Santa Monica, right? So the record label wants us to get a producer. So for our first, you know, record with him, we wind up with Pete, and not, you know, in a famous, nice studio, Studio Bee, you know, Beach Boys, Francis Andreia. - Oh yeah, I mean, that's an iconic. - I was bad-ass, you know, and like, like menu books that people are running off and fetch you tasty eats at all. - Studio Boy. - So, and friends of mine are playing the first Lollapooza. It was the chili peppers. - Oh yeah, yeah. So it's 1991, probably. - Like '91, maybe '91, or '91, whenever that first happened. And it's the last show of the tour, and it's at Irving Meadows, right? Urban Meadows, whatever the hell it is, out in Orange County, right? - Yep. - So, for me it comes down to the show, to their studio, and he's gonna go to the gig that night with my pal Mike Watt, who we were talking about, right? - Oh yeah. - And I'm like, he's a player. - And he's like, you guys, do you wanna come with me? I'm like, sure, let's go. So I go to the gig with Mike and Flea. - Right, yeah. - And then, their headlining, at the end of the night, he wants to have a bunch of us come up and jam on a P-Funk song, right? Like, standing on the verge of getting it on, right? - Okay. - And so everybody goes out, Gibby was there, you know, some of the fish bone dudes. Blackbird McKnight was there from P-Funk. You know, a bunch of other people. - Yeah. - They all go out. I'm not gonna go out, but then at the last I'm like, you know what, I will. - How could I not? - I go out with a roll of duct tape and start taping everybody together. - Nice. - And T-P-Funk's there. - Totally, you know, and the next thing I know, I'm actually being admonished by, like, some of the, like, you know, crew element of the whole situation, right? So, I go off to the side of the stage and I sit there for a second and I realize, you know, suddenly our little world of, you know, music had gotten to the point of like, you know, - There's business here. - The state, you know, the degree that I'm not allowed? I'm gonna fuck that. And there was a fire extinguisher there, right? Like, in like duct tape, you're gonna really love the fucking fire extinguisher. - I'm turning up a little bit here. - And the next thing I know, I'm out there spinning around in this cloud of like, fire extinguisher smoke, right? - Toxic. - I'm like, this rules, this is so great. This is so right up my alley. And suddenly, like, I'm like, hey, there's no more noise happening in the lights are on, you know? So, that was my Lollapalooza experience. I shut down the very last night for the first time. - What a way to end it. - What a way to end it. - You know? - Yeah, so. - Well, it looks like you got, you got to go do sound check with. Thank you so much for talking to me. It was great to talk to you. - Absolutely, again. - And you can't end with a better story than shutting down Lollapalooza with a fire extinguisher. - I don't really know if my friends don't get that much, you know what I mean? - Well, it's like an anti-smoke on the water. It's like the other side of that coin. - Right, smoke, putting out the smoke in the middle of Orange County. - Middle of Orange County, thank you so much. - Again, thanks man. - Thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - There you go, Chris Kirkwood, shutting down Lollapalooza. Some great stories in there. I had no idea that Gibi Hain's father was a children's show presenter named Mr. Peppermint, but apparently that's fairly common knowledge. But, you know, hey, I learned something new every day. Really fun conversation, thanks to Chris for doing that and to Bill from the Chris Kirkwood podcast for helping me set that up. And as always, we have new episodes every Wednesday. So if this is your first time checking out the show and you enjoyed it, which presumably you did, if you got this far, please subscribe to the show on iTunes, it's a huge help and you can rate and review the show there. We do a new episode every Wednesday, but we often have episodes off cycle and other days of the week in special edition. So make sure you subscribe so you don't miss out on any of those. But at the very least, we'll see you again next Wednesday for a brand new edition of TV guidance counselor. (upbeat music) - I was a bed wetter. - Into the houses. Man, you know, you can lick your butthole. - Yeah, what are you even here for? - You should be nice, man. - Oh, I could phone. 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