TV Guidance Counselor
TV Guidance Counselor Episode 46: Bess Motta
- Wait, you have a TV? - No, I just like to read the TV guide. Read the TV guide, you don't need a TV guide. ♪ Smell of this planet ♪ ♪ Smell of this planet ♪ ♪ Smell of this planet ♪ ♪ My life ♪ (rock music) - Hello and welcome. It is Wednesday, which means it's time for an all new episode of TV Guidance Counselor. As always, I am Ken Reed, and I am here to discuss classic television. My guess this week is the incredible best mata, and you probably know best best. That's difficult to say, best best, from playing Ginger in the original Terminator film, which turns 30 years old this year, which is kind of scary for me. As the first movie, I remember owning on VHS. There's a little fun fact, that is probably not interesting to anybody listening, but I felt like I needed to put that in there. But Bess is fascinating, she's incredibly funny, great person to talk to. She also is mostly known to a lot of people being from the 20-minute workout, which was a huge cultural phenomenon in the 80s, which we really get into some interesting stuff about in this episode. It's a long episode, but I could have talked to her for even longer. She has a fascinating story, and I think you will enjoy it. So please sit back and listen to the brand new episode of TV Guidance Counselor with my guest, Bess Mata. (upbeat music) - Bess Mata, thank you so much for doing the show. - It's my pleasure, it's beyond pleasure. - It's great to talk to you. You have such a great story as we were chatting about a little bit earlier, and we're in some of a couple of my favorite things ever that were, as you kind of categorize them as being very culty, but I guess that's most things that I like, but you grew up out here. So this is like your, this is your area. - Yeah, yeah, I'm, you know, most people come to Los Angeles and I grew up here, and so for me, it's always been my home. I'm happy that I didn't have to come here. I think it would be difficult to try and get here, but you know, having grown up here, this has always been my-- - Was it weird having the sort of the business be the predominant predominant business? - Yeah, that's what I was gonna say, having grown up here, that having the business kind of in my backyard my whole life, it's always been kind of second nature to me to be involved in theater or some sort of-- - Right, performance. - Just type of thing, whatever I could get in my hand. - Right, exactly, exactly. And the thing you felt, not pressured, but you felt like it's just a natural thing. That's what you do when you're out here. - Yeah, well, you know, as a child, actually the house that I grew up in, I grew up on a hill, and the house above my house, which had an amazing view, was Clint Walker's house. - Okay. - Now, do you know Clint Walker for your Cheyenne? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So that was one of the original fabulous Westerns. - Right, which was huge. I mean, people forget that the Western was the television genre for decades. - So huge, and so his daughter was my babysitter, Valerie, his daughter was my babysitter. And so just, I just can't really remember being four or five years old, and just because she was my babysitter, and I knew that he was on this show and he would watch the show, I just had just sort of a magical feeling that I was in the business already, even as a little kid, yeah, yeah. I was just like, one of them already. So to me, there was never any question that I was gonna be anything other than an actor. - And you kinda got early that it was like seeing him on Cheyenne and seeing him at the house that is different. He's not that guy. - Well, I knew that he wasn't that guy, but I knew that he was very special, because when he would come down the hill to pick up his daughter, babysitting, my mother would have practically a heart attack, and he was at the front door, 'cause he was very tall, very handsome, gorgeous voice. - Classic Hollywood. - Yeah, so he wasn't just Valerie's dad. I can remember my mom closing the door and just being like, yeah, yeah, yeah. - And each of the houses is clean and each works in here. - Yeah, so I was introduced very early on to the magic of the actor, and I was digging it the most. - Right, and so you started doing theater as a kid and all of this. - Yeah, yeah, I started out as an ice skater when I was a child. - What drew you to ice skating in a very hot climate? - I loved the Olympics. I loved Peggy Fleming. I loved just the pageantry of ice skating, and we had a gorgeous ice skating rink called the Ice Capade Chalet at the Topanga Plaza, which is for anyone who grew up in the valley at the Topanga Plaza was just, you know, that's like-- - That's the spot. - It was the Rockefeller Center of the Valley. - Okay, okay. - Such as it was. - Probably everyone calls it that way. - I'm telling you, it was a magic place, and then even there at the skating rink as I got older, I started skating when I was about seven, I think, and even then there was magic at the skating rink. Bobby Sherman, who was, what was it, here come the prize. - Yes, and did a lot of music, too. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was like a teen heartthrob, so as I got older, Bobby Sherman would be at the mall, and the girls from the Brady Bunch were all ice skaters, and they would come skating, and there was just always like a lot of actors, and just that vibe was around. - It just was normal, that's who was here. - It was completely normal, it was completely normal. - So the only thing separating you from them was that they were on TV, and you weren't. - Yeah, but-- - Basically, but it was everyone was kind of in the same-- - Yes, and-- - Very welcome. - And I was friends with the girls that, you know, were on TV shows, and a lot of the kids that went to my school, their parents were actors I went to school with in high school at April Winchill, whose father is Paul Binchill, I went to school with, oh my gosh, the rifleman, I'm like-- - Chuck Conner. - Chuck Conner's son was in my class, just so many children of actors, and so many actors, and so I always felt just very natural with that. It wasn't a big deal as far as Sunday I'll be an actor. It was just like, I already was one, I already felt that I was one. - 'Cause people, a lot of people that come out here, it's a destination, like I've always dreamed, they really build it up, so in my corner, it's like, it's this huge thing, but I imagine, yeah, I want it to do the everyday thing, and it's like a mining town, everybody works in the mine. - Well, I was always very mindful of the magic of it, and I just felt very, very, very special, because I-- - I get to live here? - Yeah, yeah, because I was here already, you know, I had cousins that lived in Chicago, and of course, when they'd come out, they'd wanna see the movie stars, and we'd try to find them, 'cause you could never find one when you need one, but-- (laughs) - What I think of that's probably unusual to be that self-aware of it, I think a lot of people that grew up, or maybe can easily become very blasey about it, so kind of being able to recognize how, how-- - Well, you know, it's, for me, I guess, I could've been raised anywhere and still had that same feeling when I watched television, you know, and however old I was when I was watching the Brady Bunch, - Oh, you do this. - And saying, I wanna be-- - It feels right. - I didn't wanna be Marcia Brady, I wanted to be Marie McCormick. - Right, right. - So there was a big difference. - It is a big difference, yeah. - You know, like a normal little girl wanted to be Marcia. - Right. - I know, I wanted an agent, and I wanted to be auditioning when I was 10, so, you know, by the time I was 11, I actually was going to acting classes, and with another girlfriend of mine, and we would take the bus from Woodland Hills, which is one end of the valley, and we'd come right down Ventura, all the way to, kind of just right around the corner from where we are right now. - And your mom would be supportive of it. - Oh, absolutely, that's what you wanna do, it's not a word. - You know, my mom was an only child. - Okay. - And she was a very gifted singer, more of an opera-style algorithm, or they called it back in the day. And she never really got to follow her dream of theater the way she wanted to, as fully as she wanted to. - You didn't wanna get in your way if you wanted to. - No, I mean, she just was my biggest fan. It was one of those things where she just couldn't believe that I was so smart and so beautiful. - Right, that's exactly what you want from. - Wow! - You know, she was pretty good at building me up and making me think even at age 10. - So many people's parents aren't, so that's such a great way. - Well, I know. Well, my dad was kind of the other side because he was a scientist, so his question to me was always, what book are you reading? And, you know, in my head, I was like, "Book, why are you gonna be kidding?" "I'm gonna be reading a book of monologues for acting lessons." Yeah. - Right. - But he was just kind of, "Oh, if that's me, did you have siblings?" - Yes, I have a younger brother. And he was not really interested in theater or that kind of stuff, though. - Kind of conceptual dad more. - Yeah, he had his own things. He played the trumpet for a while, so he definitely is musical and musically aware. But, you know, I was more of the go-getter as far as knowing very young that this is what I wanted to do. And I was never particularly, you know, when you're young, you've got so much energy and bravery for that kind of stuff. I think now I'm probably much more nervous going on an audition than I ever was when I was young. - You know, the stakes probably more now. - Yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, exactly. - I mean, you know, you go, "I don't know any different, so let's, you know, see how it goes." And were you watching a lot of stuff at the time or? - I did, I think I always just could watch, would go to the movies and watch Funny Girl's, Funny Girl five times in a row, Cabaret five times in a row. - Okay, so you were really musicals. - Very much musicals and did a lot of musicals in high school. And then we had a great summer program in the valley where all the kids from all the high schools, actually all over L.A., they would come to Pierce College to do summer theater. - Okay, so good summer stuff. - Yeah, it was like a summer, it was. It was like summer stock for us. And so I was always actively involved in that. And, you know, I was really lucky I would get the lead in the plays because I had a really big singing voice. So it was kind of, you know, it was kind of a natural thing for me to just do these musicals. And it was such a fun time. But, you know, again, talking about growing up in L.A., the kids that I would do these plays with, I mean, you know, Kevin Spacey. - Really? - He had, yeah, he was Kevin Fowler then. But Kevin was an up and coming and April Winchell and April's done just a, she's been so successful in the voiceover world. - Right. - And who else, Stephanie Kramer from Hunter. - Oh, wow, yeah, yeah. - And Diane Delano, who's done just tons of television, I think Northern exposure was unpopular. She was, G.I. who lived again. Val Kilmer was there. - Oh, really? - I mean, you know, I could just, whatever. There were just so many kids that we were just all kids at the time, but they all went on and, you know, to varying degrees, just. - And you just, you might today, or over the years you just flipping through the channels, you're like, oh, there's my buddy from summer musical. - Well, I tell you honestly, many of these, many people I do stay in touch with. Some I haven't seen in years, I don't know if they'd even remember me. I would hope they would. - Sure, they would. - How could they not? - But, you know, whether it was, you know, high school or even from being in LA for several years, Sandra Bullock lived across the street for me. And it's when she was, when she had just kind of come to town and she was doing, well, working girl, the TV series. - Yes, yes, she was in a bionic woman. - Yeah, so she had just started and she was living in a very small kind of older house. And my house, they had already torn down the older house and put up a newer house. And that's where I was living. I just have such a vision of her coming in and saying, oh, I love this house, I hope I can have a house like this someday. And I was like, you will save her. - Maybe you might do that. - Yeah, I make it, right. And then just to see if I bloom and just, you know. - Doesn't work out for everybody. I don't wanna see her, but. - No, I think everyone was pretty sure she was gonna hit pretty big. - Were there people like that that you were just like, oh yeah, that person, they're gonna be. - You know, it was funny, and some of them did. Just went right through it. And then of course, there's always those people that you think are the sure thing. And they just, I don't whether they fall through the cracks or they get married and have kids and change priorities. And then some people that you never, I mean, I wouldn't name them right now. - Right, right, but you're shocked. - But yeah, you would've never thought some people would become, you know. - Yeah, like how did this even happen? Hopefully they think the same thing. (laughing) - So you're watching, so you're more sort of into movies and you're, it sounds like you're more obsessed with the behind the scenes. So I imagine you're probably reading a lot of the magazines and that kind of stuff. - I loved it, of course I was very, I mean, I can remember being very, I don't wanna say obsessed, but very interested in the grocery store magazine newsstand scene. And I can remember, this is, I mean, when you're older, it's just hysterical to say the stuff that you remember, 'cause I remembered it when I was in the early twenties, but seeing Sophia Lauren holding her baby, which I remember on, it was like a miracle baby. She wasn't supposed to be, they'll have a baby. There she is holding the baby. And sometimes I'll see one of these magazines, whether it's, you know, Kim Cardassian, whoever it is, holding their baby. I actually will have a deja vu, oh gosh. Wasn't it just yesterday that it was Sophia Lauren or Audrey Hepburn holding the miracle baby? - No mattresses. - Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, don't, don't, don't get mired in the details, but just that that same kind of, there's probably some little, you know, seven-year-old squirt right now at high level who, yeah, who'll have that same thing of those beautiful magazines as my mom is paying for groceries, you know? - So were you into like the variety shows and that sort of thing, 'cause that was sort of the time of the variety show? - Oh my gosh. - And that's when these people were being these bigger than life personalities instead of playing characters. - Honestly, my dad loved Red Skelton. - Okay. - Jackie Gleason, wrestling. - Okay, it's a big wrestling show. - You know, pretty much I think a kid, don't you think that a kid grows up kind of, whatever the taste of the dad is? - Yeah, yeah. - Especially from my generation, you have one TV in the house. - They make the call. - Right. - And the mom is busy doing everything. - Right, the mom's in the kitchen cleaning. I mean, obviously, that comes without saying. But, you know, you would just sit with your dad and those are kind of the memories. And yes, I definitely was all about variety shows and, you know, sketch comedy and all of that stuff. And just thought that those people were geniuses, but I was also into June Taylor dancers. - Right. - I mean, that was everything. But there was a real lot of overlap with that. I mean, 'cause they would have these very classic sort of spectacle of dancing and sketch comedy. And then, it's almost interviews and live music. - It's so delicious. - You don't really have that from that, definitely not that sort of level today. - No, it's not that-- - But the variety show is never really-- - Right, you know, we've got like, honestly, I've never watched American Idol because the idea of a singing competition. - Yeah. - I'm saying it right now, my stomach flips. Because to compete is a singer, I can't even imagine anything more terrifying. - No, anytime you apply sports rules to a subjective art, it's really, I'm like, that doesn't work. You can't do that. - Exactly, I mean, just the, well, I go back to ice skating, which was my original sport of choice, which was like my ground zero for being athletic, or for wearing tights in public. - Right, right. Which, once you get that down, you can do anything. - I will say, once you wear tights in public, you're never the same. - Back to the wrestling. - Right. - It just seems normal, isn't it? - Right, you know. (laughs) But I think the athletic component of the singing, the dancing, all that kind of stuff is sort of always played in. - And so you're ice skating, and then you kind of got out of the ice skating because-- - Right, so because of the skating, I was taking a lot of dance classes to support the ice skating, to work on the grace factor and all that. And so when I let the ice skating go when I was about 13 years old, because you really had to choose if you were really gonna become a hardcore skater, which was insanely expensive. - Oh yeah, and that's 10 hours a day. - And your parents were like, yeah, drive you everywhere, and we just weren't that, it was not about that at all. So then I started doing more dance classes, and then that was around the time that I started getting into drama at school. - Right. - And just that, once I started taking drama at school-- - Right. (laughs) - It's real now, yeah. - Yes, that, once that happened, all that's rough. I mean, that just cemented that I was going to be an actor, which was fine, because I already knew it in my art of hearts anyway. - Right. - And from that-- - It was a formality at that point. - It was a formality. It was just the beginning of my training. So, you know, once I got into that, it was really, it was all about that, and-- - And you started doing musicals, and you moved to San Francisco to do a musical. - Right, so after I got out of high school, and had done a season or two of these summer productions, I started auditioning right away. I had no interest whatsoever in going to college. - Right. - None, and a lot of my-- - What are we going to learn there? - Well, I'll tell you, I did try to go to LA City College, because they had a wonderful drama program, but to me, I could not bear driving past Hollywood to the campus, and I'd look over like a puppy out the window, it's like I want to be there. - But just stop here, whatever you got. - Right, just stop, and I couldn't stand being in a classroom setting for one more minute. It just felt like being in prison, and, you know, in hindsight, I probably should have applied myself to that for a while, but I kind of didn't need to, 'cause I started auditioning, and started getting theater jobs right away, and so when I was, like, 18 or 19, I did a show in San Francisco, which was called The Great American Backstage, a musical, and the show had already been a huge success in Los Angeles, and had gone up to San Francisco, and then I was replacing an actress named Marcia Kramer, who was wonderful, and this show was just six people. It was sort of a loving homage to the musicals of the 40s, and my character was sort of the little Judy Garland blend of, you know, wide-eyed wonder and big singing voice, and it was a wonderful show, and I loved living up there. That was the summer that Elvis Presley died, so whenever I need to kind of, like, say, when was that, I can remember distinctly, yes, walking down Gary Street and seeing-- - August, 1977, yeah. - Yeah, the newspaper, and the-- - Which was the first, like, there was maybe four celebrities of Elvis level fame at that time, I would say, and that was the first death of just, someone who'd been through several generations of people that were probably like, "This will be around forever." - And then, for, if you lived in L.A., you actually saw Elvis driving in convertible. - Did you ever see him? - Oh, at least two or three times. - Wow. - And he, you know, in my mind, I think I saw him in a turquoise convertible one time, and a white convertible, but I know where I was. I saw him in the same place, specifically two times, which was on sunset, right where it kind of shoots up to Dohini, that's the hamburger, Hamlet was there. So I'm in that same place twice, it was sort of an Elvis sighting. - And when people would be like, "Yeah, there's Elvis again." Oh, would it be kind of a big deal? - It was a big deal, but it was definitely a big deal. This all was a big deal to see celebs. - Oh, yeah. - It just wasn't that unusual, but it was definitely-- - Right. - It was definitely an "Oh my God" moment. - Oh, yeah, and I'm sure there are still, there are ones too where it's slightly different, where you're like, "Oh, I know this guy off TV, "that's pretty cool." And then like, there's Elvis, though, it's kind of a-- - It was Elvis. - Yeah. - And also when you're like 19, or 18, Elvis seems so old, which how old was he when he died? - He was 40. (laughing) - He was like 44, and I think, yeah. - Yes, I would love to be 44. (laughing) So yeah, so he was an legend when I was 19, he was it, he was everything. - So that's a huge deal, and you were never, you never wanted to move to New York to do theater, or 'cause I always think of, you know, that when people wanna do theater acting, - Right. - It's like New York as well, yeah. - Yes, that had been in my mind for years and years. What had happened, in my particular case, was I went to San Francisco with the Great American Backstage musical, and while I was doing the show there, Anthony Andrews, who was a, well, he's still a wonderful British actor. - Scarlet Pemprano, but it's had-- - Right, he was huge at that moment in time for Brides had revisited. And the producers of the show were British, and Anthony had come over to check out this tag. As I remember, he was friends with them, and he had come to see the show. And he loved the show, and particularly, was fond of me in my little role. So he wanted to take the show to London, and produce it there. But he only wanted to do that if he could take me with the show, which I mean, just saying it, I feel embarrassed, but that was just the way it was. I mean, when you're young like that, you just don't realize how amazing it is. I was just like, you know, of course. - That's what happens, yeah. - Yeah, that was exactly, that's what happened. So he went to British equity, and said, I want to produce the show, and they said, at the time you couldn't go back and forth at the actors. - Right, they were very protected, but perfect. - Very, very strict about it. And so they said, no, you've got to do it with six British actors. And he said, well, either I do it with Bess and the five British actors, or we don't do it at all. So I think that's how I got to do it. And I think at the time, I wasn't even quite aware of all the mechanisms of getting me over there. It was just once I came back, and I told people, and they were like, there's no way you could have done that. You're not allowed to. And I was like, oh, well. - I guess I'm allowed to. - I didn't think of it that way, but I think at the time, it was just like, yeah, how did I do that? And then kind of figured it out. It was like, did you have interest in staying there and trying to do other plays that would be like, oh, I'm going to go back to-- - The cast was very small, only six people, three boys, three girls. And I became very close with an actress named Marty Webb. - Okay. - Who had done lots of fabulous shows over there. And she and I became close, and she would come visit in Los Angeles, and she loved coming and staying with me, and then I would go over there. And as it turned out, she was the first replacement in theater, it's a big deal. At least it was then, to be the first replacement for the person who originates the role. - Okay. - So in Evita, which was a huge, huge, huge, at that point, enormous, Elaine Page had originated the role. And my dear friend, Marty Webb, was going to step in as the first replacement, which was just the biggest deal in the world. So once she had done that, she came and stayed with me for a month before she went into rehearsal, and then once she got the show up and running, I came over and stayed with her for a month. And that's when I was still doing a lot of auditioning and things like that for theater. And I saw Evita from every conceivable point in theater. Anywhere she could stick me or hide me, or I could climb to or squeeze into-- - It's just over and over and over. - It was a ride, it was really a ride. Which is probably a great vantage point for someone who obviously is very interested in theater. - It was amazing. - You know, you don't get to watch a play that you're in every night. So getting to be around a play almost every night, probably. - Oh yeah. - But not having to worry about actually performing in it, you could probably just learn so much from it. - It was exquisite, it was exquisite. What happened to me was I fell so in love with that play. And so, so in love with that role, that I really, I mean, I can tell you in hindsight, I was obsessed. I was really obsessed with playing the role of Evita. Now I was quite young, I was still just like, at that time I was probably 21, maybe 22, I don't know. But when they did decide that they were gonna do the show in New York, a lame page couldn't come because she was pretty interested. And so they held a huge audition, just a huge audition. And I flew myself out from Los Angeles to New York. And I think really, I had gone to New York a couple times when I was 15, with my boyfriend, over Christmas vacation, we had seen like, you know, 20 plays in 15 days. - Right, which is kind of magical and touristy. - So magical. But those were, and it was at Christmas time. So it was Christmas. - Yeah, 'cause New York and Christmas. - It was just, first of all, you've grown up here. I mean, that was for the first time you were exposed to that kind of weather and that environment, yeah. - So magical. And so, I mean, those were the years where I was really like, I am going to New York. But this trip where I came out and auditioned for Evita, the casting director, who's this really famous, amazing casting director, Joanna Merlin. She was interviewing everyone who had, wasn't being submitted by Agent, all with just people who were, you know, inequity, - Right. - But you just, they're cold. And I remember her, you know, sitting down with me and saying, okay, what makes you think you can do this? And I showed her my resume and said that I'd done this play in London and she said, well, if that's impossible, you couldn't have it. - Right, right. (laughs) - So, she said, you know what? Y'all right, you can come in and do the audition. And I'm telling you, this is that thing about being young and brave. I didn't know New York at all. I just, I had a girlfriend that was living there and I stayed with her for a couple of days. And I kind of remember just walking around trying to find the theater. But the next day, I came in and sang. And I don't understand, I can't remember if I, I don't understand my own story. I honestly-- - But many people don't, I understand my own stories. - No, I'm like, was this me or did I dream about this person? I think it was me. Andrew was there. So, I don't know whether Joanna had separated the people that-- - Right. - Who were going to sing for him or what? But I had somehow been so complete, I guess I told her that I'd seen the show from every inch of the stage. - Andrew had a pretty good credit I've already performed. - Yeah. And so, Andrew was there and I know I sang for him. And I know I sang "The Man I Love." That was my big audition. - Did you know he was there after? - No, I knew he was right there in the front row center. And I'm trying to remember the two people that I auditioned in between. I know one person was Barbara Streisand's sister, Rosalind Kind. - Rosalind Kind. So, she went before me and I was like, "Well, that's great." (laughs) - That's a little bit difficult to follow. - And I'm trying to remember who came after me. It was somebody else who was amazing at the time. It wasn't Pia Zadora, but it was someone who was like, maybe it was like Lena Zavaroni. I don't know, it was someone who was like, a fabulous belting-- - Yeah, you knew who they were. - Obscure culty singer at the time. So I was wedged between these two obvious legends. But I think I might've had one more audition after that, but it didn't pan out from there, which I don't know why I thought it would have. I was so young for that role. I should've been auditioning for the role of The Mistress, which was the perfect role for me. - 'Cause not to what you wanted. - Exactly, and being that age at that time, it was like, no. So, I'm telling you straight up, that experience made me so sad. - Like that? - And I, I mean, I'm a very, you may not know this about me. I'm an emotional person. - Okay. - Okay, I will share that secret with you. I was so completely wrapped up with that avita. That after that experience happened to me, it really took the love of theater out of me. I can remember when the show opened. I was just despondent. When the show came to LA at the music center at the Dorothy Chandler, I really think, I know I went to see it, 'cause I hadn't seen it in New York. I already knew the play-ups. I didn't say that, I didn't need to see it. But I did go to see it, and I know that my friend that I went with, I really think I had to be sedated when the overtures started. I mean, it was so overwhelming to me to have not been able to do something that I wanted. - But you had also had this kind of fascinating career path up to that point, where, to your point, you didn't know that you couldn't not, you couldn't be in equity. So to have this, it makes sense that you would go, "Yeah, you can just--" - Do you know, I think, I'm happy that I'm talking to you about this, because honestly, that's something that I really don't scratch up very often, 'cause it was a very painful time for me in my life. But I think that that really probably was the biggest component of my disappointment. It was really the first time. - Yeah. (laughs) - That's a big disappointment. - That it had, that I hadn't gotten the lead in the high school play, right? Which, I mean, you know, you can laugh now at this point. - But with your 20, you know, 20, 22, 23, and you've been doing 12 years of plays, and that's half your life, and you've yet to need to get a no. - And then at the time, Evita was the end all, be all, it was the most magnificent piece of theater I had ever seen, so I just didn't want to audition for Annie Get Your Gun anymore. I just didn't want you, and it really took-- - Nothing else will do. - Right. - Evita or nothing? - Yes. - So-- - Did you see the Madonna version? - Yes, I did. - Okay. - God, love her. - That had to make you feel a little bit. - Oh, yeah. (laughs) - Plus, I mean, you knew it. Anyway, that was bad. But that's when I sort of switched from having this musical comedy thing. Also, when I came back from doing the show in London, I had gained weight where, like, you know, I wasn't obese or anything, but I was like 10 or 15 pounds over what I needed to be, to be auditioning. - For acting, it's not a normal weight level. - Right, and I'm small, it looked like more than 10 or 15 pounds, and that's right when, at the beginning of the '80s, when the whole aerobic thing was starting. So I had joined my little neighborhood gym in Brentwood, which, again, just happened to be a magical spot. There was so many cool, fabulous, magical people there, and I loved it, and I started taking classes, and it was right when people were starting to understand what a leg warmer was really for. - Right, and this was, I mean, the late '70s, early '80s, there was this, just, people don't understand now how exercise was not a thing anyone really even talked about in the early '70s, early. You had Jack Elaine in the '50s on TV, but it wasn't, it became a phenomenon. - It was such a phenomenon, and, you know, it's funny you'd say Jack Elaine, because there's, oh, of course, everybody's life story has so many details, but we were talking about what I watched as a child. - Right. - Jack Elaine, every day. - Okay. - When my mother was ironing clothes. - Then would you do the routines along with him and everything? - I didn't think I did the routines. I think I just stared at him. - Well, he was like a superhero. He'd have these jumpsuits, and was-- - He was such a superhero, and I know you, I don't know if you've ever seen a real Jack Elaine show, if you just know him. - Yes, no, I have, yeah. - But they had this organ that would go, "Bruh, brr, brr, brr!" I mean, so there was this bizarre-- - It was sort of like a children's show in a lot of ways, yeah. - It was. There was a bizarre musical, can't look away, a component to it. It was in black and white, and then he had these, again, did I dream this? No, he had two white German shepherds. - Yes. - And it just had everything I needed. It had gorgeous dogs. - Right. - It had a man and a unitard for the love of God. - I've never seen that before. - It was a very Elvis-y jumpsuit, actually. - Yes. - Free for Elvis. - And he was saying, "You can do it, you can do it, you can do it." That, so that, at the time, I didn't realize that that was being layered into-- - Right. - The torts of who I am, and everything I became, but Jack Elaine was so in there. He was so in there. So as I began to take these aerobic classes, which at the time were very hokey, they would do like, hoedown routines, and really goofy choreography. - Right. - Goofy. And so I came to these classes, and I just thought they were really corny. - Yeah. - And I had this component of having taken all these jazz classes with some of the most amazing, Joe Tremaine was just an amazing jazz teacher that I studied with for years, and he was just the sexiest man alive, and he taught me all these great moves, and I was never a great dancer because I couldn't remember the steps. - Right. - And I just, I couldn't remember choreography. I needed to rehearse and rehearse to remember it, so I could never really audition as a dancer. - Right. - 'Cause you didn't just get something to do for a choreography. - No, I was not a five, six, seven, eight. - Correct. - Boom, no, that was not me. I was like a five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, I was like. - Right, right. - I'll be back in a week. - I'll be back in about three weeks. I could do the dance, but you had to give me the part first, and that's not how it worked eventually. So, where was I saying? Oh, I had all this dance and movement background. After a while, I made friends with everyone there, and the girl who was running the show there said sure, if you want to teach a class, you can teach a class. I started teaching classes, and my classes got very popular, very quickly. - 'Cause you were incorporating all this stuff from me or other people. - Yeah, I wasn't playing a whole-down music. I was playing Prince, and I was playing the most delicious, fabulous, and I was doing these great hip movements that no one was doing. - Well, I think these exercises classes, before that, they weren't aimed at younger people. They were aimed at sort of like retirees and things. - Do you know who Gloria Marshall was? Do you know that name at all? I think she had like an international chain, but this was back when they put those conveyor belts on you. - Yeah, yeah. Shake it. It was like, that's who needed exercise. It was like 55-year-old women. They might need an exercise, but young people you kind of didn't, getting in shape wasn't really like a thing. - Right, exactly. So it was the perfect storm. I was at the right place at the right time. I lived two minutes away from this completely happening, Jim. The clothes were on fire. I mean, I was made to wear a French cuddly attire. I mean, that was it. - Any of us aren't, we've tried, yeah. - I'm telling you, I've worn those tights but to take the plazas, so I was prepared. So, you know, I just, it was the perfect storm. So I loved teaching aerobics. And one, one fateful day, I was watching the Tom Snyder show. And this was when cable was first starting. And there was a channel on there. I don't even remember. It seems like there was only one cable channel, the Z channel. - Z channel was the only cable channel in the Los Angeles area. It was specific to LA. And it was legendary for showing all kinds of cult movies specifically. But that changed the lives of everyone I've talked to in LA who grew up here around that time. They were just exposed to all these amazing things. - I'm telling you, I almost well up with tears when I just sang the Z channel. It's like, again, did I dream that or was that real? And you had a big box thing and you had to push this button which eventually the Z channel was just worn out. You had to replace that button. But on the Z channel, there was this amazing, beautiful exercise show called Auroba Sides. And the girls were just, they were just exquisite. I mean, I was not that old that I just had never seen such beauty. It was everything. I just loved it. So they shot them on this white background and the girls wore these gorgeous leotards of bare legs and had big, wild hair. And they just danced to this dreamy music. - They were shooting almost like a Bubsy, Busby Berkeley sort of performance. - Yes, exactly. Well, this is why I wanted to mention the June Taylor dancer. So again, that layer of frosting was in my cake. And I was like, it's June Taylor, but with sex. - They're all coming together. - Exactly, it means something. This is important. - Right, right. - And I hope that's it, I was just hooked. So this is the fate thing again. It just seems like a month after I got hooked on that and I'm not kidding, I was hooked on it. I started taking class at my little gym from this girl and it was like unbelievable. She was one of the girls. - Really? - Yes. - Did you recognize her? - Oh, yes, I recognized her. Her name is and was and is Debbie Corday or Deborah Corday. - Okay. - And she was the one with hair like mine, the big fabulous Buddha. And she was the most beautiful girl I'd ever seen. She was just, she was just forget theater, forget musical comedies. - This is the thing now. - So fantastic. So I started taking Debbie's class, Deborah's class, and we became friends and we were very friendly and she pretty much was just, you know, she was my complete inspiration. And that's really when I started teaching more and really just got into it and just loved her. And then the guy who had directed those beautiful other sides started taking my class. Oh wait, let me back up one night. So one night because this was before I met the director. In fact, this was even before I met Deborah, but I did know the Z channel and I did know the aerobics that's girls. One night Tom Snyder had Ron Harris, who was the director of a real size, on his late night show. - 'Cause it became kind of a phenomenon. - Oh yeah. - 'Cause it was an interesting time in television in that we started getting these cable channels. They were looking for stuff to fill airtime. And so they got very experimental. And things like Z channel said we have these five movies but we have to show stuff in between the movies that go a lot of time. So what can we hear? - And aerobics was one of those things and people started becoming more obsessed with the interstitials than the programming that they had kind of intended to do. - Exactly, exactly. And now that, you know, again, it's not like I tell my chronological history that I was talking to you as interesting. I'm even interesting myself because I'm like, oh yeah, now I remember. I think that actually the first time I'd seen the show was on Tom Snyder and Ron Harris came on and played a clip of it. I just remember that's when I saw the girls for the first time. And then that's when I started watching it on the Z channel. But I remember that night and I'm not kidding. It's a cinematic moment, which everybody's life has cinematic moments. But I remember going to bed and this is when I was still overweight. I hadn't gotten to bed. - So that might be one of the reasons that it really appealed? - Yes, yes, as we're saying now. But I can honestly God remember being in bed with little tears coming down the outside corners of my eyes. - I'm the thing. - Honestly, I remember saying I'm going to meet that man. I'm going to be one of those girls. Honest to goodness is sleep. Going to sleep saying, I'm going to meet that man. I'm going to be one of those girls. And that's how I fell asleep too. - She knew Avita. - She is right, look out, look out, she's got a plan. So that's when I joined that gym and that's when I started teaching the classes very, very small time. And that's when Deborah was a teacher to start taking her classes. Anyway, so that's the story. So then Ron Harris, the director, was friends with Deborah. He would come and take Deborah's class. So I met that man. - And you'd have them from Tom Snider and it's all, it's all good to give them. - I mean, I knew I was friendly with Deborah. So as he was going to be doing a norm, I think I auditioned to be, he did several seasons or versions of Aerobasize. But I was not ready. I was not one of those girls. I just wasn't one of those girls. They were exquisite. But I did audition for him a couple of times. Now he decides he's going to do a more instructional version of the show. And here's where it gets good. Because of my singing, dancing. It's like I could sing and talk at the same time. Whereas there weren't a lot of-- - You have good breath control. - Right, a lot of instructors were just like, one, two, and right, right. And I had a voice that could be as interesting as the picture. So, I mean, and I was lucky that way. So when Ron decided to do this, I don't think I particularly auditioned for the 20 minute workout. Why had already been trying so hard to be one of the sexy barefoot cable girls. He was like, okay, Bess, we'll just let you. We'll put shoes on you when he talks. - I gotta think, right, here you go, yeah. - And so that's how that happened. And then, everything changed. - And that was a nationally syndicated show. And was it produced partly in Canada? - It was completely done in Canada, in Toronto. - Did you flew up to Toronto to film it? - Yes, which was so much fun. Ron had an amazing studio off of La Brea. I wanna say it was near La Brea and Wilshire. And Ron was an amazing, amazing fashion photographer. - Okay. - And I-- - Which makes sense given, especially with the original Robosize, which was basically like a moving fashion. - Honestly, I mean, the detail to lighting and just everything. And he was a genius how he did it. I mean, he had the cameras and-- - Composition staffing. - Everything, and he would edit it online if I remember correctly. Like, he would just go from one camera to the other. - Very different from Jacqueline. - Very different, you know, it was just so gorgeous. So, you know, I remember spending a lot of time at his studio rehearsing and auditioning girls. We did an audition here and got several girls from Los Angeles. And then I think we went up there. I don't know if they had already auditioned the girls and just brought me the girls. But when we went up there, most of the girls were Canadian. I think we brought maybe two or three girls from Los Angeles. I think Annie and Holly were from Los Angeles and the rest of the girls were from Toronto. But we went up there and had a real intense week or so of rehearsal. And then we just would shoot five or six shows a day. I mean-- - So you did a whole season in like two weeks or something? - Seriously, in like three weeks. And we shot at Nelvana Studios, I believe. - Yeah, it was an animation. So you did the Care Bears later. - Right, right, exactly. And we shot, we had the same dressing room where the kids from, second, S-E-T-V. - S-E-T-V, right, right. - Yes, we had their hair and makeup people. - Oh, wow. - Which, for me-- - But Jules, what was the guy who was the costumer? Jules something? - You know what, we didn't have him because we had a girl for the-- - Oh, you're trying. - I don't think we had, wait a minute. Now I'm gonna do it. - Jules Hollamyre was the costumer or makeup person for S-E-T-V. - Well, we had Beverly Sheckman, I would say Beverly. And Judy, Judy Cooper Celia, Judy Celia Cooper. - Okay. - And I apologize for the money. - Jules Cooper Celia, I think, was her name. And Beverly Sheckman, I believe, was the name. But they were amazing. And then, you know, I loved S-E-T-V. - S-E-T-V is my all-time favorite. - Oh my God, I should've brought a photograph to show you. I've got an amazing photograph of me, all like in my 20-minute workout, hugging Andrea Martin. - Oh, she's my favorite. - Oh my gosh, and her hair is all like mine. And we look like sisters and it's just so great. It's like the most treasured photograph of that. So that was just magical. That was so magical. - Right. - And we went up there that one season and did all those. They would have the, yeah, they would have this big white background and the white turntable and all the lights. And we would just shoot it in one. We would, I mean, you didn't stop. There was no editing, you shoot it. And then they could be all dizzy and hot. - Right, it's just been ironic. - Stone feeling. Of course, we weren't eating. 'Cause you stand on a white background and a leotard say, "Oh, hungry, you are not." So, you know, they kind of help you down and then they bring three more girls up. And while you went kind of sat down and try to focus on that. - Could have not passed out for 30 minutes. For 20 minutes. - Right, right, right. They kind of turn you around, fluffy up. And by then that show was gone and they bring you back up. - And you have this for a rock video aesthetic too. And I think that it was also, you know, the time where the look of television was changing more in line with that sort of thing. So, I believe it was nationally syndicated, I think. - Yes, so it was nationally syndicated. And I can't really tell you everywhere it played. I was huge in Canada, huge. City TV played it. And from, I mean, I don't even know where to go with this. Because I was a Robics teacher in LA, I was always in the gym in the morning. I've spent every morning in whatever gym I was teaching and really my whole life. So, I didn't know the show was, I didn't know anything. It was, I was in the gym. And that was even before they had TV's gyms. - And they're not gonna be watching a workout show. - No, so apparently it was quite popular with the masses. So Orion Pictures had the syndication on it. And they would send Holly and Annie and myself all over the country to the different stations to make personal appearances. Like we, you know, they'd set up a big thing in the park and we'd do the 20 minute workout in the park. And then we'd do all the news shows. And, you know, they would take us around. And it was a big deal. So I did that for several years after the show had started. And that was amazing. - You must have just had tons and tons of people come out. - I'm telling you, you say it was Rockstar, it really was. I know one time, I mean, we would go to all the, we did malls, we did lots of malls, we did lots. And I remember, I can remember several times where it was really like Jackson Fidey, like you could have-- - Yeah, we need security. - Exactly, like protecting you from the limousine into the mall. Because this was, I mean, this was the sort of first exercise show that hit with everybody. And I'm really certain that it was after that. You had like the Jane Fonda workout videos and once people started getting VCRs and stuff. - Right, I think Jane was kind of happening concurrently. - Right, right. - But even Jane, like we were in our 20s and Jane was 45. She was-- - It's a different audience. - Right, she was still kind of in that. She was in that fabulous, I'm 45 and I can kick and stretch. - You're getting the people who are watching the Prince Video on MTV and then flipping over and watching this. - Right, right. - And it was a game sort of sitting. - Yeah. - And there was an LP, I think an LP came out of the music from it. - Yeah, the music from the music was fabulous. The music was great on it. So, you know, that was just a super duper, fabulous, magical, amazing moment in my life. I went up and did a second season. Now, the second season, I honestly, again, I don't know what the situation was. I don't remember. I think that Orion or somebody had bought Ron Harris out. They had bought the property or whatever. - This is, there's some money here. - Right, so they, Ron wasn't involved in the second season. I went back up and did the second season and unfortunately, and I, to this day, I really, it makes me tear up. Ron was very, very, very crossed with me over it. I didn't realize at the time what the moving parts were. I think he felt that because I had gone and done it. - Sort of a trail. - Yeah, I think so. And so, you know what? I never saw him again. Isn't that the saddest thing? - Yeah. - And it's kind of like Joan Rivers and Johnny Carson. - Right, right. - Straight up. But when we've been hearing so much about amazing Joan Rivers and every time I hear what happened, it always reminds me. I'm like, yeah, I know that feeling. I've had that feeling several times. - But I bet there's a lot of stories out here like that where it's, you know, it's supposed to be where you're, you're doing creative things that are personal and when you have to put the business piece in, which those two things shouldn't mix at all, and they have to and you get these situations. - It's so heartbreaking. But I've always tried to, like in a case like this, I've always tried to, I don't wanna say, communicate to with Ron to an interview, but I've always wanted to communicate to Ron how much he meant to me and how I never took for granted the gift that he gave me because it really set up my whole life of fitness. You know, on the other hand, I was doomed to a life of fitness. - Right, right, right. Yeah, it's a double-edged sword, yeah. - It is because, you know, after the whole 20-minute workout came out, there was a huge period of time before the internet. It took a long time for me to understand what my effect or what my gift had been. I had no idea. I mean, we can back up. - So you didn't get like fan mail and that kind of stuff? - We did get fan mail. We got, they would send that up. We'd go into Orion every once in a while and they'd give you, seriously, just sacks and sacks of fan mail. Most of it was from what we called incarcerated-- - Yes, that was my-- - And they were very sweet. And then there was, y'all was the odd letter from the guy who would say, I am your husband. I'm coming to get you. - Remember me. - Or I'm, I've made a gym for you in my basement. You're going, I'm gonna come get you and put you there. - So Orion would not filter any of these. - Well, there were too many. There were too many letters. I mean, there was just too much. So that, I mean, that's another component again. This is interesting to me to remember these things. There was a component of stalking that made me very, - Scared or uncomfortable? - I was never really scared, but it made me hesitate with, pardon me, moving forward with being famous. - Right. - It took a lot of the joy, the childhood joy of being Maureen McCormack. - Right, you could see this sort of dark underbelly of that a little bit. - Yes, yes, and a particularly because I was upside down in a leotard. - And you're also coming out there and saying, I'm best. You're not coming out there and going, I'm at Marcia Brady. - Right, and you can't underestimate, and you cannot overstate when a person has the power of looking into the camera and talking. - Right in their home, right to the person. - Right, and I was talking to men who were in bed at six in the morning. Can you imagine? Now, since the internet has been invented, thanks Al. - Right. - Since the internet has been invented, and I've read, they've put, you know, the 20 minute workout on YouTube. And I've read the comments that people put. I can assure you, the comments that I read are so mind-boggling. I mean, I'm not embarrassed by anything I read. It's not that kind of thing. - Right, YouTube comments are always just the weirdest. - What blows my mind is the reality of the, well, the comments that I read, which like I said, I think they're funny, and actually, I mean, even the most disgusting comment is a compliment. - That's true, they watched it. (laughing) - It's all very flattering, but I had no. - That it had that component to it? - No idea. Let me assure you that every glance, every sparkle, every smile, every flat back over, every person of the lips was coming from the most innocent and sincere musical comedy place in my heart. - Right, in the name of fitness. - I had no, well, I knew that I looked cute. - Well, yeah. - But it was the same way that anyone would look cute on the stage, I mean, I was working it, but I had no idea that those, those that were watching it. - And this whole other audience, yes. - So as I've read over, you know, to me, it feels recently, but over the years as it became more obvious to me, what the heck, I cannot, I just laugh and laugh. - Well, I imagine too, you, you know, you went up to Toronto for two or three weeks and shot this thing, and then you can kind of forget about it in that it's, you're not your everyday job. It's kind of a luck that you do. And so then it goes and spreads out in this world. Everywhere, inside markets, it was airing two or three times a day. - Right, that's when I found out I had no idea. So maybe 10 years ago, maybe 15 years ago, who the hell knows, but I'm at the gym and one of the 20 minute workout girls walks in, one of the girls from Toronto. - Right. - And now she's out here living, she's fabulous and with somebody in Malibu, what a gal. She was a model that had been hired on the show, and she fills me in, and I'm not kidding. This was before the internet, before Facebook and all that stuff. I mean, it's before everyone came together. I stood there in the locker room as she told me, who I, she told me who I was. I had no idea. - Right, right. - She's like, you should have come back to Toronto, you are very popular in Toronto. - Very popular in Toronto. - And when I, no idea, when I, nobody told me, when I think of the years of, when I say struggle, you know, I mean, I've had a, I had beautiful, happy life. I was teaching classes, but... - But you're leading this double life you're unaware of, basically, yeah. - Right, right. What was the name of that movie that came out? Were you looking for Sugar Man? - Yes, yes, yes. - I had that with me. - You got me Sugar Man in the body? - I was Sugar Man in the body. - Well, you know, I mean, that show was parody, you don't know all kinds of things at the time. There was, in the David Cronenberg movie video drum, the channel that James Woods runs is a very thinly veiled version of city TV. - Oh, and they got it? - Yeah, but yeah, so it was, you know, a huge part of popular culture. - I had no idea. Now, I did know that Ghostbusters, which is also celebrating its 30th anniversary, they had a great homage, Rick Moranis says. - Yes. - I just finished doing the 20 minute workout. - Fantastic TV. - Yes, yeah. - He said, I watched it on Fast Forward and did it in 10 minutes or something. - Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, not that just, I mean, when I saw that, and that came out, you know, around the same... - Five, yeah. - Oh my gosh, and my heart just exploded like that. - That can't be the same 20 minute. - Oh, I was just, I was just so like, excited, I was like, yes, yes, yes. And then there's a film, I love Norm Mcdonald. - Right. - And apparently, he's Canadian. - Yes, yes, yes, he's from Toronto. - Oh, everyone who works in LA is Canadian, apparently. So, I'm actually surprised I didn't get more work. - Yeah. - By people who thought I was Canadian. He, I guess, was a big 20 minute workout fan and used a great clip in Dirty Work, which I think gives his dad a heart attack in the movie. - Which Bob Saggot directed Dirty Work. - Oh, did he? - Did he come up earlier that you... - Amazing. - Yeah, he used to hang out at the, that wasn't Buddy's team. - Yes, I was thinking that my, my best friend in my early teen years and, and up until really, up until the time we're talking about, my closest friend was Wendy, just Ferber. - Right. - And when Wendy Jo did Buzz and Buddy's, I was on the set with her so much and talking about, you know, Peter Skalari being so amazing and of course, John Banks. - That's Bob Saggot's name. That's Bob Saggot's name. - And Bob Saggot was the warm cop. - And Bob Saggot was the warm cop. - And Bob Saggot was the warm cop. - And just used to make me laugh and laugh. - And just, just, oh my God. - Yeah, oh absolutely. Wendy Jo's friend was so funny on those things and she was in, I want to hold your hand, I think it was the first thing she would, Robert Zemeckis's first movie. - Yeah, and Spielberg had produced that. - She would get her in for a year and back to the future. And yeah, so it's such a funny comedic actress. And you grew up with her out here? - Yes, and she, she was not in my, in my high school, but when you do the summer. - Right, when we would all come together. - Yeah, all stars, if you will. - Yes, it was, it was like the musical theater, high school theater, all stars. And we would all, well really, it was a bunch of drama geeks, right? A bunch of goofballs. - Holy run the world. (laughing) - Fake holy, so as it should be. - Right. - So yes, we would all just the kind of little cream of the crop of drama geeks from each high school would get together and, you know, that's how Wendy and I met. - She the first person that you were friends with that was on a regular series that you would go. - I think so, because Wendy did that when she was quite young. And I think, yes, I do think that Wendy did that. Honestly, I'll tell you what. Wendy did that before I had gotten into fitness, because I remember there were a little group of us. Wendy was one, our friend Claudia, Jan, myself, and I think there was one or two other girls. And we called our little group the Slenderellas. - Oh, very nice. - This is a detail. So we would do the Slenderellas and all that was, was Wendy Jo was working and she'd gotten this fantastic condominium. And she was the first one to buy something, you know. And condominium on Sepalveda, and they had built the sports connection, which was just the most fantastic gym. Yeah, that was the gym that Jamie Lee Curtis, where they shot perfect. So Wendy was right across from the sports connection, and she was taking classes. And I hadn't even joined the gym yet. So she would come and teach us the exercises that she was doing there. And we would meet on Tuesday nights for Slenderellas. Now, from Rema correctly, I could be wrong, but I think after we did our exercises in the rec room, I think we'd go back to Wendy Jo's and then eat. - Yeah, well, you're hungry after that workout, yeah. - But that was another layer in the fitness component. Yeah, that I was totally into that. We loved that stuff. - And it was a run at the same time that you got a determinator as well, right? - Right, so yeah, so coming out of the Wendy moment, yes, let me move them back up to that. - Yeah, absolutely. - Because Wendy was such a huge part of my life, and especially at that time, it was just, she was such a magical time to go to the Paramount lot. - Right. - Because Wendy was shooting, I'm sorry, I can't remember the number of the sound stage, but you know, every sound stage on Paramount, something magical is happening. - Oh, the history, that's all that I was, yeah. - Which is the acutely aware of having grown up here of all the things, yeah. - I can't even tell you, to me-- - The ghosts in those rooms is just-- - You know, we have Disneyland here, so to me, of course I love Disneyland, who wouldn't, but to me, Disneyland was never, like you have people come from out of town, they wanna go to Disneyland. All I ever wanted to do was get on the Paramount lot, as much as I could, 'cause that was heaven. And of course, once you're on, especially back in the years of Buzz and Buddy's, once you were there, you just meander all the way up a lot. I'm yeah, exactly, and you could go in and out of stages, and nobody asked you anything, 'cause there's no way you could've gotten in. Now, I think they might say, you might have to have a tag, or something, probably, but-- - And there was no such thing as someone who didn't look like they belonged there, 'cause who knew what they were shooting? - It was also, it was just such a delicious magic. - Was that the first time you made it on there? When she was shooting that? - I think so, I can't remember, I can't remember ever having, no, no. I think the very first time I was in any TV studio was when I was a little girl, we were talking about when you know that you're an actor. I believe it was Chuckles the Clown. - Okay. - I believe it was Chuckles. - I just had a morning TV show. - Yeah, a little cartoon rep around the show. - And they would have two birthday, a birthday girl on a birthday boy. And a girl on my street, Bonnie Ross, I believe it was Bonnie, I'm quite sure it was Bonnie Ross. She was the birthday girl, and saw all of her little friends got to go. And so, of course, everybody else there is about the birthday, and about Chuckles the Clown, and about the magic, whatever. - And these lights and the camera. - That's it, I'm like, I'm on a TV sound stage. - Oh, yeah, yeah, that was huge. - I was highly distracted, and I would love to find out what year that was. I think I had to be, like, five? I know I was not six or seven. - It was probably the sort of height of that local clown show format was sort of late '60s, early '70s. - Right, I mean, it wasn't Bozo, it wasn't Sheriff John. - Bozo was a franchise, which is a lot of people. - So there, yeah, right. - But Dad was on the Boston Bozo, the clown show, when he was eight years old of my uncle. And I actually found the episode. - Oh my gosh. - I showed it to him one day at Christmas, and it was hilarious, because he ruins a big surprise on the show. There's a thing, stuff that falls down from the ceiling as like a joke, and you see my dad, he must be six. And he nudges my uncle, points up, like a second before it happens, and I'm like, oh, already, you're reading the jokes. - You're the one, right. - And then at the end, he dances with a robot to a song called Chicken Curry, which we all still, it's hilarious footage to have. - Oh my gosh. - Yeah, so I was like, there was a Henry, got a TV credit before me a little bit before. - Nice, I like it. - Yeah, so that stuff would be very, very... - I like it. - I don't know how in the world you'd ever find that. I would think it had faded and disappeared, which, you know, we're going back to 20 minute. We're got the, I worry that those shows are fading and disappearing. - 'Cause they're all shot on video. - Yeah, I don't have any of them, really. Any I have, or kind of on beta or something, I'm glad people have put them up on YouTube. But even the ones on YouTube are kind of... - Second generation, taped off TV. - Yeah, I mean, that's one of those. One of my sort of hobbies is that I, amongst my odd hobbies, is that I collect television broadcast tapes. So VHS tapes, beta tapes that I find, I add flea market, so whatever, the things people tape that TV, and then I archive them on to DVD. - Oh, that's so kind of you. - And so I have... - 10,000 hours of these things, so... - Well, try to find a joke. - If you have to take a transfer, and I'll look for some sort of work, I know there is some... - See what you got, see if you can find a good one, 'cause I hate for those to disappear. - Yeah. - 'Cause there's just such a goal. - Well, I mean, in the television in the '50s and '60s, they used to just wipe the tapes and reuse them of things. They didn't even archive at all. So it's in the world now where you couldn't get rid of things if you wanted to. - Right, right. - Back then, it was like, even things you wanted to keep, they would, they would want to feed other tapes. - Yeah, it's amazing. - Big things. - Oh. - Well, okay, so after that show came on, I started touring all over the country. - Right. - Fitness stuff, and then I got approached to start hosting a Robix contest. - So I hosted a Robix contest. - What did you want in a Robix contest? - Oh, you'd be surprised. - Okay. - We would go to malls, it would be me, I would be the, either Crystal Light or Avion Water. - Okay, yeah. - This is when bottled water was just starting. - Yeah, it was the new thing. - And Avion was it. So I was the Avion bottled water girl and went around the country to malls, which is fine, I'm very comfortable in tights in a mall, and they would put a big stage in the center, part of the mall, hundreds of people would come. They'd be hanging over the rafts everywhere, and they would do the competitions just like a little mini Olympics, and there'd be single girl, single guy, pears, trios, all kinds of different. - Or routines that they had created. - Yes, the people would create them and then bring them, and it was a big deal. I really had nothing to do with the organization of it at all. - Right. - I was just-- - You're the name and the face and the MC of it. - Yes, and that's why I draw. - Yeah. - And that's how I met a lot of the trying to work out fans. That was one of the ways that I knew that it was a big deal. - Right, because at that point, malls had sort of become the new town square. - Exactly, remember when they were breaking, like, Tiffany? - Yes, they had her travel the malls. - It was all that same time. - It was when I was growing up in Boston, that's how they broke Mark Wahlberg. They had Marky Mark in the funky bunch come and play all the malls, and it was kind of a joke that you were like, "I went to mall, and I had to watch Marky--" Like you would just-- You'd be like, "I didn't even know they were there. It would be a big concert there." And so that was the new town set, and people would congregate there, and it was the social mecca of everything. - I mean, malls had been around for a long time, but not 80s malls. - No, 80s malls was a whole new phenomenon. - Really? - Again, I think it was because they were aiming-- malls were aimed at middle-aged housewives in the '60s. It was like, "It's very convenient for you to get all your shopping done in one place so that you can get home and clean." But it was like, "Hey, kids, come hang out here. Teenagers come hang out here." - Right, exactly. - And I wonder part of it was people were a little more affluent, and they had a little more money to spend and recreational money, especially teenagers, who prior to that probably had no money. - Right, right. - But you know, you had things like fast times at Ridgemont High and all the things that were saying-- - Right, Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - Valley Girl. - That were really making people who didn't live out here kind of aspire to that sort of teenage group of leg warmers and Valley Girl, I mean, and I was a Valley Girl, I mean, I had grown up in a mall. It was just like it had all been-- - Did you see the movie, Valley Girl, and it came out? - I'm sure I did when it came out. I don't remember. - I was wondering what like-- - Was it Jennifer Jason Lee? - Jennifer Jason Lee isn't fast times. - Oh, that's okay. - It was Deborah Foreman, and it was Amy, not Amy Herkeling, Martha Coolidge directed it. - I'm sure I saw it. I saw everything at that time. - Yeah, I was wondering what, but like the real teenage girls who grew up there at the time would be like this is-- - This is, oh, this is just-- - This is not over. - Oh my God, this is so stupid. - Right, right, right. - I was telling how I would be there. - Right. - Yeah, that could have been the case. I don't know. I remember that time, for me, I was so about Prince, I was so about Prince. My whole, my brain was just purple, and so, I mean, I can remember, you know, when purple rain came out, that was just, you know-- - Oh, it was a huge movie. Such a great, I still love that movie. - I was, I forget what I was telling her this week, I went on a date to go see the M&M Movie 8 Mile, and I was like, "This is just bad purple rain." - You know, I've never seen 8 Mile, and I've got you, and I love M&M. I absolutely love it. - This is not purple, this is just purple rain, it's not without being purple rain. - It's not being purple rain. - And the girl was like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "No, purple rain is a better version of this movie." - Just yeah. - Yeah. - Speaking of "Mall" God, I've said the word "Mall" more today than I've ever said in like the past 10 years. The Beverly Center was the amazing mall, and I don't know how it happened to be there what I was looking for, but it was really in the day, there was nobody in the mall, it was myself looking for whatever I was looking for. "Oh wait, there was one other person in the mall, Prince." - Really? - Oh, with his gigantic bodyguard, his name was Chick, I don't know if you know this Prince detail, but Chick was this huge sort of Harley, what, Hell's Angel guy. And Prince, I'll hand to God, was wearing his little purple suit with the buttons down the side. It was a lavender one, it wasn't a dark purple one, and there he was, and I was coming from one way, it wasn't like I looked over and he was there, I could see him coming. - Right. It's like a high noon showdown. - That's precisely, except that, you know, I mean, there was that moment of, is it, that he's with this huge white man. - Cause there were a lot of people trying to cultivate that look at the time. - Right, but he had Chick. - And if you were a Prince freak, you knew Chick. And he was coming, you know, I think at that time, that mall, that Beverly Center had a really happening disco, tramps or trumps, stuff, yeah, so yeah, so I don't know if he was coming out of there, but he was familiar with the Beverly Center, let's put it that way. He's coming towards me from one end, and I'm coming, and it was just enough time for me to almost get physically ill, because I wasn't going to stop or turn away or duck into a store. - Or else you're going to see Prince? - I was going to talk to Prince. - Yeah. - Because there was no one around. - Yeah. - And certainly at that time, no one really knew who Prince was. - This was like 82, 83. - Yes. If anyone looked at him, it was just because he was a tiny little man in purple, with a huge, hell's angel, you know, exactly. - So this was like dirty mind. - Yes. You know what? I think purple rain hadn't even come out yet. - Yeah. - That's what I'm thinking now, as we, as we, as we have this lovely therapy session, where I should be taking notes. I really should. - It's all coming back now. It's, I remember, I really have something. - Yes. - Okay. So he's walking towards me and I have just enough time. I'm not kidding. He gets up. We get to the point where I've now kind of, you know, gone towards him, honest to God, the words wouldn't come out of my mouth. It was like. - Right. - Was it the only time he'd been starstruck? - In my whole life. In my whole life. I mean, my stomach, I really felt like I was going to, like, lose everything. - Right. - In all directions. - Right. - To the point where Chick put his hands on my shoulders and guided me to a little area. And he said, I think you've had enough. - Because he's probably like ugly. - Yeah. - It's happening again. - You know what? It was before purple rain. But I was so familiar with Prince because why, teaching aerobics, little red Corvette. - Yeah. - Donkey kicks. - Yeah. - Yes. - Okay. Perfectly time for donkey. - Yes. Exactly. So, yeah. So that was, that is one of my, you know, when they say that when you die, your life will flash before you. - I've told you several things. - That will come through. - That will come through. Prince at the Beverly Center. - Well, then you've seen too, like the, the Apollonia and the vanity stuff seemed somewhat influenced by the 20 minute workout. - Well, you know what it is funny. It's funny in, in, in, when I see the big picture, even, um, I'm sure if Madonna were to hear this. And I hope she does for your sake. I know when I see, uh, I think it was, um, it wasn't borderline, it was, which one, which she doesn't. - It's one she does on the white background. - Oh, yes, yes, yes. A holiday. - A holiday. Yes, exactly. A holiday. Looks a lot like 20 minute workout. - It really does. Yeah. - And, and I remember at the time when I saw that I was like, well, she knows what's going on. She's watched. - Oh, absolutely. - So, you know, there have been different things that, that I've seen where I'm like, I think I might have influenced. - Right. Well, like physically live in Newton John video. - Right, right. And I know that, I know that a lot of people did try to do what, what we affectionately in my house called Motta Hair, which was that, that amazing layered poodle cut where no two hairs were the same length, and somehow it curled up like, I don't even know. - Was that Toronto humidity? - I don't know what it was. I mean, you can see I have curly hair, but nothing like that. That was just a freak of nature. - The environment was different. - It was different. - The moisture. - The air was different. - Much more moisture. - Yeah. So, I've seen Prince Live, but he's easily in my top, you know, performers that I love. And I probably would have had a similar situation, or I probably would have been tackled by Chick. - Yeah. - Not a young girl. But he was so influential, and so, so much my, just my touchstone in my everyday life, obviously because of the music, and because I was going to marry him and have his babies, you know? - Clearly. Yeah. - But, you know, like women were gonna marry Paul. I was gonna marry Paul. - Right. - Well, I'm very small. And he's very small. I just thought we were, you know, very suited to each other. - Yeah, yeah. - Yes. And of course, it's so obvious. And then they finally, when he did the Purple Rain tour here in Los Angeles at the Forum, a very dear friend of mine had the ability to get fabulous, amazing tickets to any concert. Like I saw all the Bruce Springsteen concerts from Provo Center. - Yeah, yeah. Wow. - And he got me, I believe it was Five Nights in a Row, Prince. - And that tour was The Time and - It was Sheila E. - It was Sheila E. And I don't think the time was with him. I think it was Wendy and Lisa. - Okay. - Okay. - It was the full on revolution. - Yeah, it was the revolution and it was Sheila E was the opener. And she would pull someone out of the audience and one night she pulled my friend that I brought with me up to sing, I can't remember which song it was that she sang. - Next time I put the lipstick off your collar. - Oh, yes, yes, yes. - Yes, that's what she did. And my dear friend practically passed out too. Anyway, front row center, every single night, to the point where by the third night, Prince had his peeps, his people come out and asked me who I was. - Why are you in the front row? - How are you doing this? - Wow. - Yeah, for real. - Wow. - And then that night, every night, Prince would give a purple rose with a purple ribbon. - Yeah. - That night he handed it to me, which was like, that to me was the wedding. - Oh my God. - Yeah, yeah. I think that's legally binding in mid-states. - I still of course have that rose, everything about that little rose is gone. - Right. - Dead, except that the ribbon on this horrible little shard of stem, which I do keep it - I keep it where I can see it because it's such a pressure. - Yeah, I'm sure you have it. Yeah, I'm sure people are like, why do you have a broken story? - I think those are all my Prince stories. - Yeah. Those are pretty good Prince stories. - I will say later on, when I was trying to get a recording deal, I did go to the woman who had made all the clothes for the girls. Her name was Eileen or Ellen Warren, she had a shop on Melrose, and I did, she did make my clothes for me. - She did all the vanity and Apollonia clothes? - Yes. - And I also had, I want to say her name was Mary France, and she was Prince's stylist for a while. So I got as many Prince-type people that I could go in. - Yeah, you got to do it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you ever want to go on my Facebook page, every once in a while, I'll put up one of those pictures. They're absolutely hilarious. And I love them. They're just, to me, they're so precious. I just... - That's fantastic. That's, and I think you said, to the Terminator, you were listening to Prince and the scenes that you showed. So I think, I think I had done the first season of 20-minute workout, and then I was auditioning at the time, quite a bit, and somehow, don't ask me how, because I have not been able to do it again. I got this great role in this movie, the Terminator, and no one knew who Jim Cameron was. - Yeah, it was a little B-movie, basically. - Nobody knew who it was. And really, at the time, and I don't mean this as any disrespect to Arnold at all, but at the time, he was Conan the Barbarian, he was not an actor. - He was the guy from Pumping Iron. - Right. And to me, as the serious actress, the trained actress, part of me, I was like, "Oh, great. You're like the 20-minute workout girl, and he's Mr. Universe, and now you're gonna be in a movie with Arnold." - It was like this thing going on. - Yeah, I was like, "Ah, shoot, you know. To me at the time," I was like, "Wow, well, okay, but I really wanted to do it, because I was still enough of a geek that it looked really, really cool." - Yeah. - However, at this particular moment in time, I had all these fitness contracts. I was the craft, light-line girl. - Right. - And I was the crystal light girl, and I was the Evian girl, I was the Converse shoe girl. - Wow. - And back then, unlike today, you had to sign a morality clause that said that you would not do anything to humiliate the brand, and in the original script of The Terminator, there was a really, you know, a sex scene called a love-making scene, but it was a sex scene, and it was all done in silhouettes, and it's ginger and matte, and matte's flat on his back, and ginger's straddling matte with the, what do they call those, a sliding glass door, with the light coming through. - Yes, yeah. - Big blade runner looking. - Yes, exactly, and you can really see they're going at it, and it would be me best. - Right. That's my character. - Yeah. - Exactly, it would be me sitting up there ever so topless and naked, grinding on that, and it was like, "Oh, well, this is a deal break." - Right. - Because- - I have some things I have to do. - Right, and even then at the time, even though I was a leotard girl, and not at all, you know, prudish or any of that kind of- - But it's different. I mean, that's a new level. - It was different. To me, it was very horny. It was why it was crossing the line, and it was at a moment in time when lines were not to be crossed. So I did have to respectfully decline and say, "I can't do that," and I'll be darned if somehow I didn't get switched around, and that's when the headphones, when Jim came up with using the headphones, he said, "Well, we'll still have to do a bed scene, but can you do it if we do it this way?" And I was like, "Can I?" This is- - And then if it comes so much more memorable as a scene, because it's unusual. - Yeah, even though I completely forgotten that that scene existed until all the internet comments. And then everyone's like, "Yeah, that's when that was giving it too good." - Right. - And I'm like, "Oh, yeah." - That must be so bizarre. - Oh, it's so bizarre. It's like, "Oh, yeah, I guess I've done a sex scene, because I never think of myself as having done even any movies." - Right. - Well, it's like probably about two, three days of work, and- - The whole thing was three days. - Yeah. - And again, it's very much like the 20-minute workout where you have a very small amount of time where everything got changed, and again, so fortunate, just like the 20-minute workout became so iconic, of all the movies that I could have done besides Purple Rain that year. - Right. - I've been a better Apollonia. - Yes, well- - Of all the movies that could have been done in that year, for it to be the Terminator, and all of the mileage that I've gotten from that. And when I say mileage, I mean, you cannot meet a person pretty much that hasn't seen the Terminator. I mean, people forget that that movie was a low-budget exploitation movie for all intents and purposes, like a hundred other movies that came out that year produced by Independent Studios, but because it's such an American Institute or a world institution now, that movie just was a huge hit out of nowhere. - I can't believe my luck. I mean, I just cannot believe it, and I will tell you, James Cameron was an amazing person then. - Right. - He was himself. I think he was 30 years old, because I know he just recently last month turned 60, and it was 30 years ago. I mean, I'm doing math here. - Right, right, right, right. - I'm showing off, so he's, you know, it's amazing. - Come on to the Roger Corman. Cameron rose up from being basically an intern to correcting this movie. - Oh, it's so magical, isn't it? - It was such a huge hit that it was a crossover move for him instantaneously. - I just remember seeing it. I think at the time, there was some movie theater in the valley. I wish I hadn't knew where it was, but I wasn't paying that much attention then, because I had no idea. - Right. It's just a three day job. - No idea, and I just remember when the movie started, and that music came up. - Yeah. - And it's supposed to pop it up, it's still crushing. - And I turned to, I was with my two daughters' friends, I'd turned them, and just we all looked each other and went, and my name came up, and I was thrilling, and my name, I don't even know how I got my names at the beginning of the movie, and it was like- - It was not that many characters in the movies, it's a pretty big part. - And it was just like, it was the most delicious hamburger I had ever tasted in my life, seeing that. Those few moments when that movie began, I couldn't believe it. I'll tell you something else, when I was a little girl, we'd have to figure out what your sounder came out. - Yep. - I loved Paul Winfield. I cannot even, I can't even tell you what the movie sounder meant to me. - I loved that movie, maybe that's the first movie where I just cried and sobbed at a movie. - Right, where you have that deep emotional connection with the movie for the first time where it's like, this is more than movie. - Yeah, I think that was the first time that I was really touched from a dramatic rather than a fun and things- - Right, right, right. - Or a shocking kind of scary thing. - Yeah. - So I couldn't even believe it, that he was in that movie. - Yeah. - And I had no idea he was in the movie. - 'Cause you just did your scenes- - Is that just a male little thing? - Yeah. - I never saw my, I never met Michael. - Right. - You know. - It's such a weird thing to be associated with them for, I mean that movie- - Yes. - You know, if you had done a vida, probably it wouldn't have been as lasting and memorable as the Terminator. - Oh my gosh, well of course, everything unrolls the way it's supposed to. - Right. - It's just that you, you have so much resistance to the way the things are supposed to be. - Right. - But I'll tell you another, a quick little aside about that and I, if I'm inaccurate, if anyone hears this that says that's not how it went down, I apologize, but it seems to me that Linda, right before we started the shooting, that Linda had twisted her ankle or some twisted her ankle or something had happened to her where she couldn't run and there was a- - Which is very important in that movie. - Very important. There was a brief moment, a brief afternoon, I can't remember whether it was James Cameron that called me or whether it was my agent or my manager or whatever the heck, but there was a moment in time where somebody said to me, "There's a chance Linda can't do this." - We might need you to do it. - And we might need you to do it. There was a moment. - Yeah. - Isn't that bizarre? - That is really, I mean, that really would be a life before and after. - Isn't it been amazing? I had forgotten that for so long, for so long, and that something reminded me of it and it came to me and then I was listening to Linda talk about it and she said something about having twisted her ankle or whatever it was. And that's what kind of tickled in my mind, I'm like, "Oh yeah, I think it could have been this easy. It could have been that I was going for a costume fitting and it could have been someone there that said, "Linda's in messed up." Yeah, it could have been that I really don't remember the detail, but I do know there was a moment in time where I was like, "Oh, without even better." - Right. - We're going to do that. - Right. - But can you imagine? - Yeah. - And people over the years, and I don't like- I love Linda, she's a most amazing person just, I do these autograph signing conventions and there's so much fun to do. I just, there's so much fun and after years of never seeing Linda, we reconnected at a couple of these- - Oh no, and Michael does a lot of those as well. - Yes, and they're both just amazing. I've done a couple of them with them and they're just, it's just so much, Linda's just so, so there for her fans, so giving. But anyway, so I don't mean this in disrespect little to Linda, but people who are best fans always say to me, "I wish that you hadn't gotten killed. They should have killed her, not you." - Well, it is a time travel movie where the past can change. - Well, I wish. - You know that- - We're an alternate future. - Well, as I always said, no sequel for Ginger, because her evil twin comes back- - True. - A Terminator from the future. I was hoping there'd be a dream sequence in T2, or maybe I should have tried a little harder now that they're redoing it. I think it would have been cute if I played Ginger's mom in this redo that they could. - Right, right. - I mean, I don't know how exact, how true they are to the original, whether Sarah has a friend named Ginger or a friend, but I think it'd be funny if I played the mom- - Oh, yeah. I mean, and they definitely like doing those kind of homages to the original. - Well, I think this one's done, but at the time I was like, "Who, who do I call? I want to make that happen." - You mean this thing now. - Fans love that stuff. That's what's so, I mean, of course an actor wants a job, an actor's always angling to figure out a way. - But do these little hidden gems and the thing that you enjoy an extra level, then? - Right, and once you start doing some of these fan conventions, which I know some actors just don't like doing them and think that they're a big imposition or hard to do. Personally, I like it. Why wouldn't someone want to sit in a chair all day and have people come up and say, "How much they love you and how great they think you are?" And you give, you know, do an honor if it's still, it's fun. It's just unbelievable fun. - Well, to see, sort of, right in front of you, the impact of a three-day job you did has rippled decades and decades later is kind of amazing. - It's interesting to hear what people say. I've always been surprised how many people have said, "How come you didn't do any more science fiction movies after that?" And how do you say to someone, "I tried, I really wanted to." But, you know, it's kind of-- - Your fate's not kind of in your hands in that situation. - Right, right, right, and, but it is very, um, um, satisfying to hear people say, "Well, I wish you had." - Right, they want to-- - Or, "I wish you had." To me, that's almost the same except for the money. - Right, yeah. - Right, except for the money, the actual job. It's almost the same as having done it to hear someone say, "Well, I wish you had done it." - I wanted more, yeah. - It's like, "Oh, you do? Okay, we'll cool." - And they're not saying, "Oh, you're in so many movies." - Right. - You know, it is, which probably people get as well. - All the time. - Like, I could name three, but I know what that's doing, but I'll tell you later. - Okay. And then, to the beginning of the podcast, what I mentioned, the new monkeys is really the thing that you would kind of ask me how I thought of you for the show. And I'm a huge new monkeys fan, and it's sort of a-- it's a thing that people sort of forget about, and was such a smart, weird, funny, odd show that I think just people didn't like that it was called The Monkeys, and if it was called The Band or something, it would have been a huge hit. And I kind of recognize that that was you from that, and also the 20-minute workout person, and I was like, "I bet her story is fascinating." - Well, right here to the new monkeys could tell me all about me. - New monkeys started in 1987, so it was one of the first television programs produced by the Coca-Cola Company when they briefly bought a production studio. - Oh, I did not know this. - Yes. - And the monkeys had a huge resurgence in 1984, 1985, because MTV and Nickelodeon started airing the monkeys. And so all these kids started loving the monkeys, and people said, "What if we do one that's we own completely, and it's contemporary, but with that same kind of vibe?" So they went on this search the same way they did for the original monkeys, and interviewed these guys, and put it together, and then produced the new monkeys. There was a lot of controversy at the time, because some of the-- I think David Jones was like, "They should have got our kids to do it," or something. - All that was in the kitchen. So that's sort of where it came from, and it was a very high profile show. I mean, I had a ton of promotion behind it. - You know, I was also supposed to marry David Jones. - Well, yeah. - Before I was supposed to marry him. He was also such a small gentleman. - A small gentleman. - Yes. - And I thought we'd be a perfect man. - Well, you wouldn't want to have to have had David Jones and Prince get come to blows for each other about you. - Just finding over me, actually. I'll work on that later on, and I'll have that in a sense, or that later. Okay. - Well, listen, I think the way the monkeys happened was that I just went up for that audition, and just like a normal actor, agent saying, "You're up for this." And I do know that the audition was held at the improv on Melrose, not in the club, but where they gave their improv classes. - Yeah. - It seems it was upstairs. - Yeah, they didn't. - Like you went, yeah. That's where it was. And the audition, if I remember correctly, there wasn't even any lines, you just talked to the camera and told a story, and my role that I was up for at the time, I knew that it was the new monkeys, which I thought was great, because I was a huge monkeys fan or original. - I've missed one of my all-time heroes. - Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I got to meet Peter Torque at one of these sign and convention. - Oh, yeah. He does a lot of them now, yeah. - I wish I could have met David, but I met Peter. And are these interviews when you do them, or is it just like a bunch of back and forth with people? Because every single sentence, I say reminds me of something that I'm like, "No, no, no, no. I mean, that's how I like having conversations on my brain works the same way." - I feel like I'm making you crazy, but it's just the way it goes. I'll go back to the audition for the new month, because I remember that. But when I met Peter Torque, honestly, I had been signing all day, and I heard somebody say something about Peter Torque. And I... - From the monkeys? - Seriously, just like maybe three years ago, David hadn't even passed away yet, so maybe it was four years ago. I don't know. They were like, "Yeah, Peter Torque is here." And it was on. - Right. - Well, you can't just get up and leave, because you've got to stay there and do your thing. And so I just kept my little eyeballs out, but these signing conventions, let me tell you, they're beautiful, because I'm seeing all these cool celebrities, too. I mean, Rita Moreno, Julie Numer, I can't even think of all the people, Natasha Kinski, Natasha, I wish she was like, "I mean, all kinds of people that I adore, and you're just sitting there like in line with them, and you hold it together. It's so cool." So didn't see Peter Torque, didn't see Peter Torque, and I was really disappointed that I didn't see Peter Torque. - Right. - So at the end of the day, and walking through the parking lot, going back to my car, and I look over, and not as far away as Prince was, in law, but it was out... - And without you. - Far away, right. I can see that it's Peter Torque, and he's alone, and I'm like, "Oh," so I just walk up to him, and I say, "Excuse me," and I show him my badge, and I say, "Hi, my name's Esmada," and I was in the Terminator, and I was here, so I'm trying to let him know that I'm... - That's so credentialed. - Yes. - I'm not this crazed fan that's waiting to just, you know, kidnap you. Get in my van. So we had a beautiful, beautiful little conversation, and I told him what he had meant to the young me, and that I will never forget it, because that, really, the monkey's word is just my first... - Oh, yeah. I love that. And the comedy in that show, I think, holds up so well, and she's such a... And Nesmith has been such a huge, like, ongoing influence, because he wanted to do, you know, produce Reebo Man, and made television parts, which was a great sort of sketch comedy show on NBC. - And the music, the albums. - Yeah. - I mean, those albums are the albums of my pre-13, my 2011... - That's the soundtrack to your childhood. - It really is. I mean, you know, just non-stop wearing out the grooves, literally wearing out the grooves, lumber parties, and, you know, just my girlfriend had an older sister, and she had a map. It was called the monkey's map, and it was a map of Hollywood, and it showed, like, where the monkey mobile was made, and it showed, what's it called, the monkey mobile? - Yeah. - Okay. - I'm like, wait, without them. - That's what I do. - It was the same place as the Batmobile, which was Barris. - Yeah, same guy. - Right, okay, so right around the corner from the Hollywood Bowl. So it had that, and it had, I guess, where they lived, and it had where this was, but that was one of those, another one of those magical childhood moments where I was like, "Yeah, I live in Hollywood." - Where the monkeys are. - Yeah, I hope you understand that I could see them in your town. - Right, you're not coming to your town. I think they're going to your town, they're in my town. So just to have that moment with Peter Torque was insane, I'll never forget it. And I said, "May I hug you and kiss you?" And he said, "Yes." And I said, "When I hug you, I really want to hug you for a while. Isn't it okay?" I said that to him. I said, "I'm not just going to hug you and kiss you." - I have decades of hugging here. - I did. I said, "I want to hug you." - Yes. - I did. I wanted to hold him and feel him, and he was, you know, he's like a hippie. - Yeah, yeah. - He was about it. - I bet he was all into it. - So it was like one of the most like full circle moments. - Right. Amazing. Did you mention you were on the new monkeys when you talked about that? - You know what? I'm not kidding. You think I'm joking? That show was so, I never even think of the new monkeys. - Yeah. That was horrible. - Well, that was there and gone. - It was there and gone, and... - It's never really been rediscovered. - I should've said that. - Yeah. - Oh, of course, maybe if I'd said that, he would've said, "No, you may not--" - You may not. - Scabs. - You may not have on me. - Yeah. - You may not. You may not. - No, I'm sure. He was the one, you wasn't the one that was angry about it, it was, but, and Mickey, you don't actually directed a few episodes of the new monkeys. - I don't remember having Mickey, I mean, he didn't direct anything. - Or pieces, at least. He might've done. Because the show was very cut up. It was very cut up. Okay, we shot out in Valencia, which I think is where they ultimately, and at the time nobody was shooting in Valencia near Magic Mountain. I was like, "And we're shooting where--" - It was another, yeah. - It was another, like, Terminator moment. It was like, "Who's this guy? What's this?" You know, it was like, "Oh, Valencia, I want to shoot at Paramount, don't shoot it." - There's a proper studio here, yeah. - Yes, please. So I had to drive out the Magic Mountain Parkway or McBean or whatever it was called, McBeanway. And we shot it out there. So the audition, I'm back up to that audition, there was no script. And my character didn't even have a name, it was Waitress. So I think the audition was just to talk about having been a waitress or just tell us your embarrassing story. I think that's what it was. Well, I was never really a waitress, and I used the word "really." I did wait tables at a beautiful hotel in Brentwood, which I can't remember the name of it now. It was the Sunset something. It's called the Lux Hotel now. But it was a lovely hotel, right on the corner of Sunset, and kind of where the freeway let's out. - Right. - Can I forget the name of that hotel? Oh, anyway. I was a waitress there for two weeks. I had never been a waitress. I was a terrible waitress. - Although you were longer a waitress than in the Terminator? - Right, right, exactly. I hated it so much. I left every day crying because I had no skills. No skills. Coming through the kitchen with the tray every single day, it would get stuck between my throat and my hand. So I'd be holding it up, the tray on my shoulder every day. I did not know how to glide the narrow end of the tray through the door to get out. I would truly be stuck. It was horrible. I dropped things on a regular basis. I didn't know how to balance cocktail tray, and I would walk and it would just all start wobbling. It was just dreadful. So I just told those experiences and I had a story about a man, and this is true. He would come in for lunch. I worked at lunchtime for two weeks, it was probably 10 days, and this man came in every day and would order the special. Let's say the special was $12.99. He would leave $13 cash. - Oh, nice. - He was leaving. So I hated this man. And I was a horrible waitress too, so I felt bad about that, but he was so mean. And one day, guess what this guy did? He left his car keys under the charger plate. He finished his plate and they took it away, but under the lip of the larger plate, he left his car keys. And I guess I really had had enough of this guy, so I took those keys. - I would have done the same thing. I have many stories like that as a waiter. - For many years, I wasn't even ashamed of this. Now, as you get older and you really understand that that just isn't right, because the way the world works, that wasn't right. I like to think that maybe I saved him that day from getting in a car accident. - Right, maybe had a couple drinks at lunch? - Yeah, yeah, I must have been helping him. God put me in his powder. - Right, right. - But-- - Yeah, we'll go with that. - Yeah, but really, at the time, it was bad. My grandmother was kind of a fixer or kind of an imp, and I could hear her in my ear. Her name is Bess. That's why I'm named 40. Her name was Bess. And I heard her say, "I've left you those keys, now you take them." So I really thought that those were from my grandmother Bess. So I took those keys and I hid them in a stack of ashtrays. I just lifted the big stack of bull-ass trays and put them in there and put it back on. And he came, of course, he came back in in about 10 or 15 minutes. - He had to. - He had to. And he looked everywhere, and they looked through trash, and they looked there everywhere, and I just watched it. And by then, I think my shift was over. - Right. - And I went and got the keys, and then I took them to the bathroom and I flushed them down the toilet. - Very nice. - In lobby. It was a strong toilet. - And that's why you always tip service people. - Yes, here's the motto. So then, in fact, I think, I even remember that as I came out from the bathroom, he was on, well, we had this thing called a public phone. - Yes. - So there was a block. - One of these, yes. - There was a block of phone, as he was on the phone, the pay phone calling for someone to come pick him up, and he's like, "I don't know where they are." - I don't know, yeah. - Yeah, and I left that day. That was probably my best day of being waiter. So that's the story I told. - Great story. - I don't tell you the story to relive it. I'm not proud of that now. - I won't share anything as I did as a waiter. - So that's the story I told. And as an after, sometimes, well, sometimes, when you get a role, it's fascinating that you've actually been picked. - Right. - It's on freaking belief. - Wonder what it was that they saw. - Exactly. So any time I've ever gotten a role, I always try to find out why. - Right. - Actually, well, you start trying to find out why you didn't get the role. - Right. - Then no one will tell you. - Right. - Don't talk to you. - Yes, right. Exactly. You can't find out why you didn't get it. Because it's not that you didn't get it. It's that somebody else got it. - Right. - So that's why I wanted to start finding out why I got it. - Right. 'Cause it's not like applying for any other job where you can go look at my resume. I'm qualified for this job because you need someone that's just in this skill. It's not a one to only get it so intuitive. - Exactly. So when I asked them in Valencia why I got the job, here's what they told me. They took four or five auditions and they played them for the secretaries in the office and the secretaries voted on who would have that role. - Right. - And that's what they told me. - That's kind of mean so much more in a lot of ways. - I didn't know whether to fall over or, you know, I know I thanked all the secretaries. - Right, right. - But I was just like, you know, you're kidding me, that's how it is sometimes. - Yeah. - That's how your fate is in the hand... - I'm sure I'm not the only one that got the role. - Oh, I bet. - So the waitress didn't have a name. And so I asked if we could call her Rita, which was my mom's name, so that's how she became Rita the waitress. - Right. Which was such a... So a lot of people don't know that that show was sort of set in a weird mansion that was sort of outside of time and it was like the Winchester mystery house with all kinds of heat... - Right. It had all kinds of rooms and all kinds of possibilities. - Yeah, it was like the Adam's family, Munster's house mixed with MTV. - Right, and that's another show, much like the 20 minute workout, that I never saw the new monkeys. - Right. - Are they on YouTube? - Some of them are. I can get you some copies. - Yeah, 'cause I would really like to see them. I can tell you all of the boys, all of the new monkeys were the sweetest guys, charming, adorable... - Really funny and all this stuff and wonderful. - Wonderful. - I really enjoyed the music that from a lot of the stuff. - I was particularly close to Dino and I know it's the drum ride. - Yes, it was very funny. It was the most comic relief of them. - Loved Dino. Really? - From Detroit. - Yeah, he was just the greatest guy, Greek from Detroit, yeah. And over the years, we've run into each other several times, but when, but I mean, really over the years, like I've run into him at Trader Joe's. And back when I used to run into him, I would say, "How can I get a copy of this, 'cause I wanted to put it on my reel?" And even he didn't have them. Of course now, I mean, it's so many years ago, I can't, it's useless, but I would like to see it as far as... - Oh, no, I have copies I can get on. - Yeah, yeah. I know there was one that was a Halloween. - Yes. - Did that one ever make it out? - Yes, that erred. - Yeah, I had a wicked outfit. I had a fantastic outfit. - Yes. - They let me wear great stuff. And I had, I know I was in amazing shape at the time. I remember that. They let me wear a lot of my own rock and roll clothes, which were fabulous. I know there was one thing, I don't think it was so much a new monkey's episode, but within the new monkeys we were shooting a music video. - Right. - Really? Did that come out? Do you know what I'm talking about? - Which video was it? There's a video on every episode. - Well, I honestly, I can't tell you, 'cause I just don't know the show, but I know that I was wearing some fabulous like Apollonia lace thing on a motorcycle. - Oh yes, yes, that is in one of the videos. - Okay, good. I've got to see that. I'm dying to see that, 'cause I was so disappointed that I never was able to see it. I couldn't find it. Did that show in LA? - I don't know if it showed, it was syndicated nationally, so it didn't, it didn't air in every market. It may not have, or if it did, it may have been in sort of fringe hours, and Warner Brothers put out the LP, and it was in cutout bins that, you know, it just didn't. - So it just didn't happen? Well, I'll tell you what, regardless of me being in the show, I think that's something that could have worked beautifully just a few years later. - I agree, I agree, it was sort of ahead of its time, and it was actually reminding me more of the show, The Young Ones, which was a British show that was very- - And I've never seen that, I want to see that. - That's great show, and it was much more like that than the original monkeys. And it was just so ahead of its time, and referential the television, and breaking the fourth wall, and the stuff that became very popular later, but kind of a lot later. And so I think that people just weren't ready for it, and I think it was also aimed, the marketing was kind of to teenage girls, because they said, "Oh, teenage girls love the monkeys." But that show was- - It was a lot more. - It was a weird, it sort of absorbed what I imagined was going on here at the time with this sort of punk rock aesthetic, and the art world here in LA, and that sort of underground, sort of like Peewee's Playhouse, sort of vision, that kind of stuff all cemented in that show, and I don't think people were kind of ready for that yet. - Right, I'm trying to think what music I was listening to when I would, oh shit, I can't remember the name of this guy, he never hit it super, super big, but, Isaac, Chris Isaac, I was listening to a lot of Chris Isaac when I would drive the long driveouts to- - That was around the time of Silvertown coming out right before Wicked Game, which was like '88, '89. - Who did this song? ♪ Some days, some way ♪ - Oh yes, Marshall Crenshaw. - Thank you. Marshall Crenshaw. - Robert Gordon also recorded it as well. - Well, it was Marshall Crenshaw. - Yes. - Loved, loved. - Amazing. - Honestly, this is- - Yeah. - I mean, I cannot even believe that I- all I could think of was Marshall, and I was thinking is because I was looking at his stack of Marshall amps, but Marshall Crenshaw, I would follow him all over L.A. when he was playing, oh my God. - Never mind. My mind is one of my all-time favorite songs that anyone's ever done. - I was there one night. The club was called "Laugere" on Sunset, and they played one night and his drummer, was it- the drummer, his brother? - I think so, yeah. - Oh my God. - He's another guy from Detroit, actually Marshall. - He was drumming his ass off. He broke his drumstick. It came up. It flicked him in the face. It took out his front tube. - Probably didn't miss a beat. He didn't miss a beat, but I'm not kidding. He was bleeding like someone who just, I think it was two teeth came out. Of course, at the time, it was like, yes, yes, Marshall ever. - It was, it was like, oh, I just couldn't, I couldn't, just love it. - Yeah, it just, it hit me now the first time I came out to L.A. that sort of my aesthetic and everything I enjoy, not everything, but a lot of the stuff I enjoy sort of came from here in that 80s realm of all this stuff going on, and you had, you know, cable was coming out, the syndicated market was different, so you had producing all this content, so a lot of people got opportunities that they wouldn't have in the old system, and all this great music, and the art, and all that stuff, so envious of you getting to experience all these, that sort of, very, very, very dreamy time. One of the things that happened for me or to me, eventually it happened to me, it started out happening for me, but was, gee, this just seems incredible, but I was hosting one of these aerobic events at Amal out here in Glendale, I guess it was Glendale Gallery, and this was, this is before Oprah Winfrey was Oprah Winfrey. - She's still local in Chicago. - Exactly, and, and, but it's right when they were starting to syndicate those kind of shows and stuff, and the only reason I mention Oprah is that the producer that approached, my situation approached me, ended up being, I think, a big producer on Oprah, I'm pretty sure. But anyway, I'm hosting one of these contests, and I'm the MC, which, you know, is pretty much, you know, like a stand-up comedy, even though I'd never worked stand-up comedy in a club, you know, it's hosting. - I believe you can do it, yeah. So this guy and his partner decide that, that they're going to tell Fred Silverman about me, and I'm sure you know who Fred Silverman- - He was the head of NBC at that point. - He was the head of all the networks at one point or another, and they decide that, that Fred Silverman's got to know about me, and so somehow, and again, it's so funny when your own history is so foggy in your mind, and I don't even ring that much, and I've never done any drugs, but it's also foggy to me. - Yeah. There's a lot in there. - Yeah, there's a lot. So somehow, they, um, hit Fred Silverman to me. I can remember being in an office on the Paramount lot, like my dream was coming true, and then putting me on the phone with Mr. Silverman, because I think he was in Chicago or something at the time, I don't know where it was, wherever he was, maybe New York. And um... - Yeah, I think he was New York. - He was in New York, and him speaking to me, and it was just like, oh my God. - What's happening? - Exactly. What the hell is happening? So this was another one of those... - Ah! - What? - What's happening? It's coming together moments. And I ended up, for a while doing something on a morning show, there used to be a local morning show called, I think it was on the morning, called The Love Report, which had a couple of, it was like Chuck Henry, who was a very famous local guy, and a gal named Tawny Little, who had been a Miss American. She was very popular at the time. So they hosted sort of a, it was kind of like the view, but it was a morning show called The Love Report, the two of them. And I did, at Mr. Silverman's request, this little, it was like a little exercise vignettes, where I would do some kind of exercise. - When did you do it home, kind of thing? - Yeah, but it wasn't even that much. It was always revolved around this imaginary husband, like Phyllis Dillard to fame. - Right, right, right. - I had some sort of imaginary house. - Some of like sketches. - Couch potato husband that I was always trying to get to. - Oh, weird. - This is another thing that I would love to find. I don't know what happened to The Love Report, but anyway, I did that, and then apparently Mr. Silverman really liked it. And there was a day when he brought me into his office, and by now he was out here. I think we even wouldn't have met him in New York. But anyway, at one point, I know I sat on the other side of his big desk, and he actually said to me, "What is it you would like to do?" - More questions? - He looked at my face and said, "What would you like to do?" - I didn't even answer that. - Well, yes. In hindsight, I know exactly. I should have said I would like to have an afternoon chat show. - Well, there's too much. I mean, there's too much. At the time, I was all about the music. I was all about it, and I said, "I want to be a rock star. I'm a singer. I'm a great singer. I want to be a rock star." And I didn't want-- at that moment, there weren't pop stars. There were only rock stars. I was Chrissy Hine. I was Stevie Nix. I mean, even Madonna was a little bit-- - She was kind of edgy. She was very underground. And it also came from the dance world, which is new. Those charts were very different. - Right. I was used to having a guitar and a bass and drums. I had a band. You know, that's-- that was me. We did, you know, rock and roll, that's what I was, you know? So I said that to Fred Silverman, and he was like, okay, I could have said anything. I could have said I want to be on a soap opera. He would have plugged me into a soap opera. I could have said I want to do a talk show. He would have developed a talk show. He was taking me very seriously. Is this insane what I'm telling you? - Yeah. - Yes. Okay. So I told him I wanted to be in a rock band. So here's what Mr. Silverman did. He developed for me around me a rock band. It was an all-girl band. - Okay. - Okay. We named the band Big Trouble. - Okay. - Okay. So which was a very-- we're doing this name. It was an all-girl band. And at the time, I was more-- in that moment, I was much more of a hard rocker check. - Right. - I mean, the lightest I could imagine myself being would be Pat Benatar. - Which is still pretty heavy. It's much for that. - Right. I mean, I was Chrissy and Pat. That's what I love. That's who I adored. Pat, I love because she had that amazing voice. - Yeah. - And Chrissy, because she was just standing there daring you. And I adored Linda Ronstadt, who had taken my exercise class. - Oh, wow. That's very cool. - Yeah. Can you believe one time I said to Linda Ronstadt, "I said this to Linda Ronstadt." Yeah. If you can do an aerobics class before you do a concert, it will really help you sing. I said that to Linda Ronstadt. I helped her out. - Right. - Right. - Linda Ronstadt's in the room. - It was real. I had so many things like that. I mean, I didn't even think of that until we're on this. I mean, I had millions of things that happened to me every week, something like that was happening. And then her best friend and she were taking class. And so then when she did her concert at the University of Atlanta Theatre, we went, we were backstage. I mean, everything. I mean, backstage. It was amazing. It was amazing. It was amazing time. Okay. So where was it? So Sister Silverman developed this band for me. And, you know, auditions and gets all these girls. But now for me, I was like, girls, to me, it was like a female version of the monkeys, which I don't even think I'd done the new monkeys yet. I hadn't. - Yeah. This was probably like 80, 45 or something. - Right. So to me, this was a horrible. - Right. - Horrible. - It was an unnatural way for a band to come. - It was a horrible plan. It was a fake band like the monkeys, which at that time, I know the public consciousness really didn't understand how beautiful the fake band of the monkeys was. So we get this band, which I'm already like, oh God, the girls were all good musicians too. But it was still fake. - Yeah. I think it was true. - To me, it was fake. - It was true is important with the band. You just hire people. - There was nothing wrong with the girls. They were all over the girls. But to me, we had not come together in an organic way, like the Go-Gos. - Yeah. - And I don't think the Go-Gos had happened yet. No, we had the Go-Gos. - Go-Gos started working one and two. - They had definitely happened. So anyway, I just was not happy with this situation. And the thing that I was least happy with was that we were singing all cover tunes. Now they were great cover tunes that can actually go on YouTube, and put it in big trouble and find it. So anyway, he plugged this band into a comedy show that was called Comedy Break. - Yes. - Mack and Jamie, Comedy Break, and we were the house band. - Was Kevin Paula coming up? - Correct. Kevin and Jan Hooks. And that was the other thing. So here we are, we're the house band. And they would let us do a little bit of the sketch comedy, but mostly they kind of treated us like the June Taylor dancers or like the, what were our Dean Martin's girls called? - The Gold Diggers. - Oh, the Gold Diggers. - They treated us kind of like the Gold Diggers. Like if they needed a girl to stand there. - Oh, like a Benny Hill kind of way. - Right. Correct. And that was rubbing me way the wrong way. So if they had a sketch where they were supposed to make a joke about some girls boobs, that's where we would stand. And I was like, "Oh, no, no, no. I want to be with Jan and Kevin." - Yeah. I can make the joke. - So to me, it just got very in my stomach and I was very, very unhappy with it now. Of course, in hindsight. I should have been thrilled to have had a job. I should have been thrilled to have had a band and I should have been more than thrilled to have Fred Silverman even knowing my name. But at the time I got very itchy and ultimately, shall we say, I left the band. And another girl came in and she finished the run of it. And that was fine. And she's a wonderful singer. And she went on when the whole thing went away to be on a soap opera because I'm sure Mr. Silverman said, "Would you like to do this?" - "Would you like to do this?" - "Well, we've done that. What's next on the list?" - Right. So I'm just giving you, I mean, to me, that's one of my stories. I will tell that story happily, not proudly, but happily, to anyone who's listening with the young years, young, I won't even say arrogant ears because I don't think I was arrogant. I was just confused. - Yes, but I will just tell that story with love and joyfully to anyone who can pull their own situation perhaps out of that story and try not to make any missteps. Because as silly as I thought it was, didn't I have to live through the Spice Girls a couple years later? I had to live through the Spice Girls and see what they became and really pretty much that's what he was doing with the Spice Girls. - Yeah. Which is the Spice Girls. It's pretty strange, too, to see stuff like, you know, this insanity and that sort of, the grandchildren of the 20-minute work I've worked with, these things that are, that they, instead of giving away for free and syndication, you know, the infomercials are on just as much as 20-minute work. - Oh, yeah, right. Right. Well, that's been a whole nother thing. - The world catching up to the things that you had been doing. - Right, right, right. I mean, that's been a whole nother thing. Just that I feel like the whole 20-minute workout thing was the beginning of the leotard crease. I feel like I pitched, you know, set it up for a lot of people to come in and do well with it. - Right, right. And I mean, you know, you see the world sort of catch up with you. It has to be sort of exciting and flattering, but also kind of frustrating. - Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I was very frustrated about that show for years because there was no financial joy from it, let's put it that way. But over the years as people have written to me, and especially now with like Facebook, that people write me personal messages that would just rip your heart open. - Oh, I imagine. - Tell me, telling me how I got them through a hard time in their life or just amazing stories. - Yeah. - I would not trade one day, I would, of course, we all wish to do different things happen, but I would not trade one thing that has happened as I've found out as many things that happened because of how everything unfolded for me. I wouldn't change anything. I've helped so many people that I had no idea about. And to me, it's the most... - Yeah, you never know what reached the things you do. - I know. And that's why I love the internet so much and YouTube and all the stuff that comes out because it's just, it's magnificent and to be able to see all the great old TV shows and so much stuff. I mean, it's just fantastic. We live this stuff that, you know, as we were talking about it, but now we can actually go and see it. You can go, "Oh, what's that thing? Oh, let's look it up." And you can see it. And it's amazing. - Right, right, right. - You just have to know what you're looking for. - Right. You do have to know what you're looking for. You have to just sit quietly and kind of remember what was a day when you were a kid. Like, I can remember the Friday night lineup of the Brady Bunch into the Partridge family into whatever it was that came next, but I can just remember getting your little Reese's peanut butter cups and sitting there. - It's an appointment. It's an appointment. Exactly. And that's just gone. - Yeah, it is. And it's better and worse than that, you know, I think people don't watch things as families anymore because everyone can sit on their phone and watch whatever they want, whatever they want to watch it. But you know, who knows what their memories will be, you know, when they, if some kids do like a show like this in the future, where... - Do you find you watch on your phone a lot or do you... - I don't. I don't. And I don't watch on my computer a lot either. - Yeah, I just can't because I've got that big screen sitting there. - It's just the same. My phones were like, I don't even listen to music that much on it because the fidelity is not as good. Although, you know, I listen to more of my music collection now because it's easier to access and I have to go poll records or whatever. So if all of my, you know, thousands and thousands of hours of television was digitized and I could access it very easily, I might watch it that way just from an ease of use. No, I still like, you know, Rachel and I, we sort of program the evenings, so we'll sit down and, you know, we'll go, we're going to watch a Friday night from 1981. - Right. - And no more. We'll do that, you know, and that's kind of a fun night that we like doing that kind of thing. - And then let me just ask you. I hate to turn the interview around that, but because you have such exquisite knowledge and background... - Oh, thank you. - So much stuff. I'm very interested as to what it is that you love now. - So I don't watch that much stuff now. - Do you watch like Ray or Ray Donovan or...? - No, and everyone said it's great. Everyone, my dad loves it and 10 other people have told me you got to watch Ray Donovan. It's great. I love French, which was amazing. French, I was like hooked on and just that show. - So you don't do like a modern day binge watch, particularly? - I will sometimes. We, I have like a stack of things like I haven't seen Breaking Bad yet, but I have it sitting next to the TV. We watch a lot of British stuff, so like a lot of British comedy stuff because it's so easy to get, you know, on Amazon and stuff like that. We watched Moon Boy, it was the last thing I really, really loved, which was just such a sweet, funny, weird show that Chris O'Dow did, who was in Brad's maids and the Etsy crowd. So that was the last thing we watched a lot of, but a lot of it too is, since my wife is British and I'm like catching her up on all this stuff that I watched as I think she comes up with it. - Education, it's called education. - Yes, yes. So a lot of it is sort of revisiting some older stuff too. - And then when you were a kid in your time frame, your time period, what was just your show that you couldn't live without? I mean, I know you did. - It was, it was nights. I mean, S-E-T-V was, I had to watch that anytime I was on it, love it, and Nick at Nightstar had re-earned it in 1987 and I would stay up all night and watch it a little. - Wasn't it just the most amazing? - Never missed it. It's such a great show. I was a big siren at Live person, and I watched a lot of sitcoms and stuff too, like I was just, the whole night I would be in and sitcoms were the thing that sort of along with, you kind of had to be quick to deal with my family or else you'd just be eating a life. But that was the thing where I got my sense of humor from and timing and sort of learned all that stuff. And I was saying to a guest previously that I didn't, it didn't occur to me that there were writers. So I was like, I love the sense of humor here, but I guess you just have to be really quick when someone says something to say the right way because it's a situation. - I love it all tonight. - Yeah, he's kind of waiting. So I'm like, all right, you're really good, I did good at that kind of stuff. So when I started doing comedy, I was like, how do you do it? And then obviously I figured it out later, but that kind of stuff I love like Night Court and Barney Miller, and those shows I would watch all the time. - Oh, Night Court? That was huge. - Yeah. I just loved writing on that show and the kind of love Joan Larkett and the characters, those shows I would never miss. And then I'm a huge horror fan, so I ended up watching stuff like Unsolved Mysteries and the New Twilight Zone was a huge one for me. I love the old one too, but the new one was really exciting because I'd seen the old ones a million times. - Right, right, right. - So yeah, those were kind of the things that made up everything. And the young ones actually, which was a British show that MTV used to air, actually stare it back to back with the monkeys, which was kind of why the new monkey is so cool because it's like, oh, they just mash these together. - Oh, I've got to watch that. And then do you know how many new monkey episodes there were? - 13. - Only 13. - I believe there was only 13. - So that is really super cult. - Yeah. - And it didn't, it didn't earn a lot of markets and it never re-ran because you can't sell 13 episodes in the syndication packages for later. So most of them really only earned them on time. - I've got to tell you, I've had the funniest, and by funny, I mean horrific luck with anything or a residual would be- - Oh, I bet. It's not just rearing over and over and over again. - Right. I mean, 20 minute workout was a buyout. - Right. - So even though they showed it all day every day for years, I was bought out immediately. - You got paid for three weeks and that was it. - That was it. - And that's fine, honestly. I mean, I made my piece with that years ago because that helped so many people and that's just fine. And the Terminator or Ryan declared bankruptcy. - Yeah, so many people have owned that movie. - Oh my gosh, I get one penny on the dollar. So when I get a residual check from the Terminator for $100, I mean it's taken like- - Yeah, that's like 7,000 errands. - It is. It's hilarious. I mean, and the checks are so funny. I mean, I will get a check for like 2 cents and yeah, it's crazy. And people forget that like, they're like, "I've seen that movie a million times." And it's like, "Oh, you just earned your 4 cents." - I know. It's like, "Could you send me a dollar every time you watch it?" Because then that would really mean a lot to me. - Yeah. It's- - I just laughed. I really laughed. In fact, there was a moment in time where I thought, "Well, if somebody wants a show to be completely unsinducatable and go bankrupt, I thought that that was nice." It's like, there's nothing- Meanwhile, I have all these friends who are actors that would do like one show, but it would- - Right. - They'd do five years and they'd be buying these huge houses and they'd never work again. It was like- - But it's upward in the lottery, you know, I mean- - It is. - It's like saying, "I buy these fresh tickets every week and I don't know." - I know. - But that car won one time. So it's- - What? - I feel like the sorts of stories are definitely the exception. And when anything lasts a long time or even is of really good quality, just the way television is made by comedian with all these factors that could go wrong, whatever it works, it's a miracle that it even works. - Right. Well, I do remember, though, when I got the new monkeys, I was like, "Oh, yeah. Now I'm going to be known as this waitress." - Right. - It is going to be- - Right. Big eye roll. So, I mean, I think, you know, you have to laugh. Any little job that a young actor gets, it can be gold. - You never know. - Absolutely. - And you never know what even that job, what it'll lead to and who would see you in that for something else? And, you know, Fritz Silverman will call you. - Oh, yeah. Is that the funniest thing? - That's not- - I mean, it's just, there's just so many little moving parts to- - Yeah. - To a career or to, you know, a lifetime as an actor, and there's so many little stories. And I'm sure if we sat here longer, particularly if we had a glass of wine, I would remember - Right. - A lot more stuff. I think I've told you a lot of stuff that I had totally forgotten about. - We'll have to do a part two the next time we're out here. Absolutely. - I don't know if I weren't a part two, but I just want you to know this has been so much fun. - Oh, thank you so much. - You are charming and adorable. - Oh, thank you. - And I would love to watch you on a syndicated show. - Oh, thank you. I would do syndicate here. - Or in a horror movie. - Yes. - Yes. - I would be a waitress. Anything for you. - I think you need to put on a leotard and work in a mall for a while. - I'd try it. Although, I'd see how long they would take them about the police. We're waiting to do that. Best, thank you so much. We appreciate you. - Thank you. You are just wonderful. I just so appreciate it. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you so much. - Thank you. - Thank you. - Thank you.