This week Ken welcomes comedian, actor, writer Jonathan Katz. They break format a bit discussing general 50s/60s shows and Jonathan's amazing career in television.
TV Guidance Counselor
TV Guidance Counselor Episode 31: Jonathan Katz
- Wait, you have a TV? - No, I just like to read the TV guide. Read the TV guide, you don't need a TV. (rock music) - Hello and welcome to TV Guidance Counselor. I am Ken Reid, your TV Guidance Counselor, and we have an all-new episode today as it is Wednesday. My guest this week is one of my favorites, Mr. Jonathan Katz, you kind of get jaded when you see so much stand-up comedy, and with Jonathan, he's a guy that always makes me laugh. I've been watching him for years, as many of you have, I'm a big fan of Dr. Katz. Now, if you're new to the show, the format of the show normally is someone takes a specific issue of TV guide, they go through that week, pick what they would watch, and then we talk about the specific shows. We broke format a little bit with this one. Jonathan kind of flipped through some old TV guides from his youth, and we talked about shows in general that he grew up watching. In addition to discussing his great career in television over the years, so that's what we're discussing. It's a really fun, interesting conversation. I do want to mention as well that there is some weird noises in this episode, that is Jonathan's dog who was having a good time in the room and also having a bad time in the room. So that is not me or him, that is his dog. There's also Jonathan's assistant, Katie is in there, and a couple other people. So if you hear other voices, that is not the dog, that would be very impressive. So please enjoy this week's episode with Jonathan Katz. ♪ I've gone blind ♪ ♪ TV movies made for TV ♪ ♪ TV movies made for TV ♪ - Mr. Jonathan Katz, hello. - Give it up. Give it up to the audience. (clapping) - How are you, sir? - Can't thank you so much. This is a... - Oh, you're welcome. Thank you for doing this, yeah. - But I didn't finish this sandwich. This is a disgrace. - Yeah, well that's what I go for, is a disgraceing as much as possible. So you were just trying to remember some of the people that were your sort of your first exposure to people that were on television when you were growing up, but you grew up, I'm right in Manhattan. - I grew up the first few years of my life, and ships had bay, and then we moved to Manhattan when I was still a little kid. - And so at that time, the majority of television in the United States was produced in Manhattan still. - Right. - And so I imagine that was kind of an interesting place to be in. - I went to the merry mailman with my sister. - In the audience? - Yeah. - And that was probably what a cartoon wrap around show on daily. - And on a really live show, the merry mailman, she threw up on the guy. - She threw up on the merry mailman? - Yeah. - How old were you? - My sister's two and a half years older, so I probably was about six and she was eight and a half, and I'm very nauseous. - How did she was just nervous to be on television? - Yeah. - Yeah, she was. - And he came over and was like, play a game, or? - Something like that, I don't know. - She just, yeah. - When that was probably live TV, was it when it was on the air? - Yeah. - What did he do? - I guess he just played with it. (laughs) - He literally played out with it. - Oh, special delivery. - Yes, special delivery from the esophagus. This is a great time to learn about the digestive system. Yeah, I can imagine. The, I have a new found respect the older I get for those guys that had to do sort of live television with children, and there was no, you would just have to go with that. Like you couldn't, I mean, your first in sync would probably be to swear at the child, I would imagine. - Oh, yeah. - Or just vomit yourself. But you had to just deal with it. - How do you duty to them, if you? - Yes, yes, dealing with a puppet. I mean, imagine if how do you duty was vomited on, he would have just let loose a tyrant of swears that would have just made children the world over, become criminals later in life. So that was that the absolute first time you were ever in a television studio? - Uh, yeah, I'm glad, yeah, I forgot about this. There were all these focus testing groups in New York, Petibio shows, and somebody once invited me to a show about the Royal Canadian Mounties. - And this is one of your kid? - Yeah. - And they had a raffle, and I won a year's supply of Mr. Goodbears. - Very nice, very nice. How was the Royal Canadian Mounties show? - Not that good. - No. - What was the good bar for a year? - Oh, that was unbelievable. I've never won anything before, since, except, T.M.A. (laughing) - But is it a year's supply of that? - Yes. (laughing) - Did they just give you 365 Mr. Goodbears, or did you get, like, coupons from Mr. Goodbears? - No, I actually got a box in the mail. - Just a giant box, Mr. Goodbears? - Yeah. - Wow, that must have been probably about 10, by about 10. So, how often did you go see, was that a live taping, or did they show you, like, a, you know, rejected? - No, they couldn't put it from there. - And then they were just like, "Do you like this or not?" - Yes, I don't even remember that part. This was so excited about the candy bars. - Yeah, I imagine if you won a year's supply of candy bars, - Yeah. - would overshadow anything that happened for up to two weeks after that event, I would imagine. Although, it was after your sister threw up, correct, 'cause maybe she ate the whole year's supply of Mr. Goodbears. - It's possible. This has nothing to do with TV, but it does have to do with sweets and my sister. - I like it. (laughing) - She has my father get her a chocolate cake for some occasion. - Who needs an occasion for a chocolate cake? - And he got the wrong kind of cake. - It was vanilla. - So she threw it at my dad. The whole cake was really emotional adolescent. She threw it at my dad. He ducked and hit the maid right in the face, and her cigarette was hanging out of the face. She was smoking. (laughing) - How did the maid react to that? She was like, "Now, not only do I have to clean this up, "but also it hit me in the face." - She didn't mind that part. I think that she was mostly upset about the cigarette. - Yeah, yeah. - Well, those were hard to come by. - They're still smoldering. - That would be a really good ad for cigarettes. - Yeah. - Like an even apple. It takes a lick and then keeps on smoking. So you had a maid, did you have a living maid when you were growing up? - She would just come down the house. - No, this is for a short time. I think when I was in junior high school, it was really pretty disgusting the whole thing in retrospect. - That you haven't made at all? - Yeah, yeah. Just that we would ring a bell in those times. - Would you really? - I'm so ashamed. (laughing) - There were a lot of shows in the 50s and 60s with people having helped. - My parents were communists. That's the part that was really rude. - So did they do the cleaning with her? (laughing) - He would think so. - We're hiring you in solidarity so that someone else doesn't have you. There was a huge number of shows where people had like butlers or maids in the 50s and 60s. And it seemed very alien to me. Did you know other people that had that? - Well, here's what happened. My parents were both- (phone ringing) - Oh my God. - This one I've ever heard. Is that reality online? - Yeah. (phone ringing) - Mikey, we're sitting on the speaker 'cause it could be somebody in the shoulder. - No problem. - Hello. - Hello, this is Miranda. I'm Nancy, speak of Susan K. - Can you hold on one second? Can I count on what this is regarding? - We're conducting a study about college graduates, academic and social experiences. Both will in college after graduating. - Well, she's in her last year of college. - It doesn't specify a certain year. - I mean, she's a senior now in college. - Okay. - But would you like to talk to her when she graduates? - Yeah. - Okay, well, is there a number she can return? - Yeah. - That's it? - All right, thank you. - Okay, thank you. - So there's an actual personal call. - I used to get those calls for those cash for gold things. Sometimes at work, they would just call, you know, like random numbers. And I would see how long I could keep them on the line 'cause I'm obviously very busy at my day job. And I was like, "You guys take all the precious metals?" And they're like, "We do." And I was like, "My wife's got all these frigging metals." But they're like bronze. I always tell a bronzer loser, "Get rid of them." And so when you take those and the lady was like, "I don't know." I didn't get very comfortable. I would just see if I could get them to hang up on them. - So my parents, so they-- - Yes, they were communists for the day. - Yeah, they were activists in the labor movement, both of them. And in the '50s, they were subpoenaed by the McCarthy. - So the House on American Activities Committee, subpoenaed your parents? - Yep. - And was that scary for you? Were they like, "We might go to jail?" - I turned them in. - Yeah, but I don't know how this happened. - No, it was scary. My sister and I had to say the scariest part was, we had to stay with my aunt Beatty and my uncle, Haskell. - Oh no. - 'Cause who was Martin Haskell? But he didn't like his first name, so just called him Haskell. - That's very strange. - That's very strange. Eddie Haskell, very popular at the time, so maybe he was just going with that for that name recognition. - No, he taught me, me and my cousin Paul, he took us to, they had a home in Connecticut. And he said, "Learn to kill." That was his advice to us. - Learn to kill. - Learn to kill. - Did nothing specific, just anything generally. - And then he gave us a beer, it would only be 12 maybe, most. He would teach a beer and learn to kill. - That's pretty good. - And then he lost fire his gun. - Those are in that order? Because that's a very dangerous order to do those things. Learn to kill, have a beer, here's a gun. - Something like that, yeah. - Well, people say that the time before children were stuck inside watching TV and not doing activities was a golden age, but from what you've just told me, I would kind of rather my children sit inside and play video games than have a beer and a gun. In the woods of Connecticut. So, did you just have one sibling? - Yes, I have a sister who lives in Puerto Rico. She has two grown kids and a husband. - So when you were growing up, did you guys watch a lot of television? Do you remember when the first time you got the television in the house? - I'm just going to list some names here that I remember off the top name. My little Margie. Bachelor of Father. - Bachelor of Father, it was John Forsyth. - Yes. - There was a movie, Bachelor of Mother, that was a Christmas movie. - Can this is yours? - I know, I know. But it was, Bachelor of Father was a flip of that movie. - And this amazing show, Topper. That's the one that most intrigued me because it was such a great premise. I don't know if you guys know about this, but Topper lived with Marion and George. And they were, you know, they were introduced in the opening credits as having been killed in an avalanche. So they're ghosts, but it was such a breakthrough because they were just people. - Yeah. - Actors. - And it was one of the first shows that had a supernatural element to it that wasn't a horror show. So it wasn't like the 11th hour or one of the sort of horror anthology shows. And that was the first show. I think that started in the late '40s, early '50s. - Well, it was based on the movie. - Yeah, the future. - And that sort of ushered in that era of very high concept sitcoms, like My Living Doll with Julie Meemar playing a real boss. (laughing) And you know, bewitched in Adrian Magini, probably being the most famous, but there were things like My Mother of the Car and My Favorite Martian. And these very, very silly shows. - Second favorite Martian. - My second favorite Martian, my least favorite Martian. - It's also the vintage of, was that quite show produced by, it was like a science fiction show? - Twilight Zone? - Yeah. - Same vintage. - Yeah, Twilight Zone started in the early '60s, but then did have a few comedic episodes, but for the most part were more horrific. So it was always weird to see that most of the comedies at the time were very, very high concept comedies. Did that appeal to your album? Because all the shows you've done tend to be pretty realistic, little concept. Well, yeah, in a good way, where it's more, it's people just sort of chatting. It's not someone's an alien and your mother's reincarnated as a car. - Hey, you know, (laughing) - But if you said that to me in a bar, I would-- - I drove your mother over here tonight. (laughing) Just trying to think about it. And then it was, I'm sorry, I can't focus on it. - Oh, it's all right. - Lassie. - Yeah, oh, Lassie, absolutely. - I mean, Tim, Tim. - Yeah, there was a lot of doll shows and dolphins. You had Flickr a little bit later, and my friend, Flickah, at all these shows and the horses. - I probably asked you this, is one sitcom that nobody remembers called... - That's why nobody remembers. (laughing) - I'm the only one who knows, and I don't even remember. - I'm not telling. (laughing) - Corla's Archer. - I don't know Corla's Archer. - Yeah. - What was the concept of it? - I don't know, it's just a teenage girl, but then a family show. - Isn't the mold of, like, Patty Duke, or Toby Gillis or something? - I really think, yeah, that was a great show. - Kijit. - But what I learned from Corla's Archer was, you don't wanna beat your boyfriend at ping pong, 'cause he won't wanna date you after that. - It's sad that we live in an America where we have to teach people that lesson, and they don't just know it already. - Sad, barely begins to describe it. - Yeah, it really is. - So, would you watch stuff with your parents and your sister together? - This is Caesar's show, show of shows. - Yeah, your show of shows. - And the Ed Sullivan show. - So you'd watch the big, sort of, variety shows. - Yeah, we had a big TV with tubes, so we used it mostly for heat. - Yeah, oh, absolutely. It would make that odd ping when you would treat it. Well, television was furniture at that point. I mean, it was a focal point of the room. And do you remember when you first got a television, or did you kind of always have it at first? - Well, we had a black and white TV. - No, we had a TV of color. - Yeah, that's the proper name of a television of color. - All it was was a little filter of some, so that you put it in front of your black and white TV. - Yeah, it's like saran wrap, and you just wrote it over the thing. - Yeah, absolutely. - Were there any shows that you absolutely could not miss? Did you argue with your sister about things? - Well, I think it was mostly questions that we refused. I would never miss an episode of-- - "Bad Masterson." - Oh. - "Bad Masterson" was great. Was he the name? - Oh, yeah, Jim Bowie. - Yes, Jim Bowie. - "Bad Masterson" had the whip, I think. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And then it was "Rakeleman." - Yeah. - "Shuck Conners." - "Shuck Conners." - "Shi-Ann." That's the theme song from "Shi-Ann." - Yes. - "Sugarfoot." - "Sugarfoot." - It's the theme from "Sugarfoot." - Yeah, he was the guy who didn't carry a weapon. That was the point that I'd show he only had his law books. - And diabetes. (laughing) - Say it only with people to beat the shit out of it. (laughing) - The Western is a genre that was huge in the 50s and 60s, and then just pretty much completely disappeared on television. It's some kind of-- - "Wagon Travel" is great. - Yeah, "Wagon Train" and all these shows. - "Wagon Travel" is such a racist show. - Oh, I'm glad. - 'Cause I don't doubt it. - He had an assistant, an Asian guy named Heboy. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - What's that all about? - Heboy. - Yeah. Well, the old West wasn't known for its racial tolerance, and neither were the 1950s. So when they go together like that, it makes perfect sense. Now, I'm always sort of fascinated by people who've later gone on to create television. And what your first experience was like the first time you were on a television set, how it lived up to what you thought it would be like. And it sounds like the first time you were there was for the mailman show. - For the mailman, yeah. - And was it, did it seem disappointing? Was it small? Was it, did it ruin the-- - Just, you know, I still wanna watch TV with my wife. - I feel like I ruined things by inserting the reality of the show. - Right. - You know, it's, the, her, at least her Atlanta, but I said, "Well, if that's a note "from the production company that they're trying to address." - Right, so it's almost like being a magician and being like, "He's got it up his sleeve. "It's, he's palming that." - But I remember watching this might be one you don't know about. Do you trust your wife? - Are you asking me or are you telling me about a show? - No, I'm, what I'm telling you is that you shouldn't trust your wife. - I know, she shouldn't. - There was a show I watched called, "Do You Trust Your Wife?" - Was it a game show? - Yes. And for three points, I'll tell you the story. - Who was it so? - Jeremy Carson. - Really? So this was pre-tonight show. - Yeah, this is in the, let me see, I went to, I was in high school. - So Jack Paurer was probably hosting the tonight show. - Yeah. - All right. - I had one friend, the winter basser, hi. His name was Alfonso Grams. He didn't really like me that much, but just waited for the bus to get there. - That's how you make friends at that time. - So I would go home to watch the show around four o'clock in the afternoon, and Jeremy Carson was so funny. - So that's when you first became a fan, "Do You Trust Your Wife?" - Did you ever meet him? - Twice. I mean, I was on his show twice. - Yeah, that's right, yeah. - I never, the most amazing thing about him is that, is the illusion he created when he came out onto the stage of being a very proud and dignified person. - Right. - And then you'd see him in the hallway, this guy in his undershirt. - Slump over. - Slump over. - Yeah. - So he was sort of fueled by television. He was a guy too that was sort of a mystery to people when he wasn't on TV. I mean, it was much easier than to sort of live a private life with television, but he's someone that just people didn't seem to know a lot about. Did you bring up "Do You Trust Your Wife" to him when you met him? - I had a very interesting private moment with him before the show. - No, no, no, I had no conversation with him. But my weirdest thing about doing that shows, but every comedian wants is one of the, is the highest time you're trying to come over. - Right, come on over. - Yeah. I was so anxious to get it, I gave him one. - And he came over to you? - No, I did, I did my last joke and then went like this. Like, I was pretty approved. - Did you, was that the first time you appeared on television doing comedy was on "The Tonight Show"? - No, it was Letterman. - Letterman was your first spot. In 1985 before there were jokes? - Right, right. Back during the joke tariffs before they dumped jokes into the harbor to protest. So what was that experience like as a, someone who grew up watching television and obviously you had your mailman experience which was probably the credit that Letterman used for you. But in '85 Letterman was huge. - Yeah, I think if you watch all of my, I made nine appearances on that show. And it's almost like a montage of him losing his hair because I showed up bald. - Right, right. Someone could just morph as your set goes on. He gets balder and balder. - Right, but he's true. I think the best guy in the business. - Is he your favorite talk show host? - Yeah. - So he, 'cause he did something, his sense of humor was in a lot of ways, sort of a throwback to some of the stranger stuff from the '50s and ericowbacks and that sort of thing. But he was definitely connecting with a certain group of people that weren't really watching late night shows, sort of college kids and kids in the '80s were, he was sort of the guy that was setting the tone for comedy. - And he had a daytime talk show before. - Right, the morning show. - Yeah. - And I was offering a job as the musical director but I couldn't have three hours. - It was too early. - So yeah, I was a night guy. - Did you regret not doing it? I mean, the show only lasted a couple months, so. - No, yeah. - Right, so the other thing about appearing on talk shows is that sometimes a cast and director would see me on this talk show and confuse my fear with some other comedy that I could portray on camera. - Right, right. Were you always scared when you would make these appearances? - Well, my first appearance on the Tonight Show was terrified and I had this hair sticking out of my head and my wife yanked it out of my head just before it went on, so I was mentally scared, I was in pain. - Tear it up a little bit with a big red spot on the top of your head. - So what kind of, onto the camera and this, whoever casts a show called the Commish? - Yeah, the Commish, yeah. - With Michael Chiklas for a low message. - They called me the next day and said, "If we think you're right." The show hadn't been made yet but they thought I was going to be the Commish. - Really? - Yeah, I was just scared, it wasn't tough guys. - Well, I imagine you and Michael Chiklas people confuse you guys very frequently. - That's very interesting, so. Were you instantly starting to get recognized by people after you made your first tournament appearance? - Well, I remember the first time I got recognized was, you know, I commuted from Boston to New York and I came back, I said, and I'm going to be appearing at Nick's Commie Club in Boston tomorrow, next night. And I shared with Nick's and they said, "I had to say that, I didn't believe it." (laughing) It was a guy named George Macdonald for the nice guy. - Yeah, George Macdonald. - Yeah. - Is he still doing standup? - He still is doing standup, but I don't think he's-- - It's just good looking for kind of a-- - It's his brother. - Some people are, sadly. You've got recognized from doing Letterman your first time and then you started just doing mostly standup on all these different-- - Cable shows. - Cable shows, 'cause there was just a boom of these things in the '80s. And every single basic cable network was like, we'll do a standup show, it's easy to do. - There was a show called Comic Strip Live. - On Fox on Sunday nights. - Didn't ask. (laughing) - Live from Carolines. - Yep, Carolines, the improv had one as well. - Yeah, evening of the improv, but Carolines was hosted by Rich Jenny, the late Rich Jenny, and also caving by Carol Liefer, who is such an amazing comic. - Absolutely went on to be a writer for Seinfeld and I don't know, stuff like that. And so, did you have aspirations to create television instead of just trying doing standup? At that time, or did you just kind of fall into that role? - No, I think I fell into it. By beating my friend Tom Snyder, who approached me about, he saw me in a movie, I feel like I'm being a little bit, what's the word I'm looking for? - Interesting. (laughing) - No, but I was a movie that David Mamet wrote with Shel Silverstein and cast me the role of Jackie Shore. - Yes. - The comic in Las Vegas. So Tom Snyder and his wife saw that, and he discovered that I lived nearby, so that's how we met. 'Cause you went to college with David Mamet, right? - Yeah. - And you guys played ping pong together. - Right. - And your girlfriends never beat you. - That's correct. (laughing) - Well, the one around here was saw that show, Corla Sartre. - Well, I think it's clear in his work that he did. I think that David Mamet is very influenced by Corla Sartre, and he'll tell you that as well. - Right. - And so you went to college with him, so you started doing sort of acting roles just by chance, by knowing him. - Well. - Yeah, did you play a comic? - No, when we went to the school club, Goddard College was in the '60s, was pretty much about sex and drugs. - Right. It's the '60s. - Yeah. He knew at that time that he wanted to work in theater, and he did a show in the basement of a dorm, a review called Camel, and you can see that those are upstairs. The main thing is that even though it was a college show, he charged everybody 50 cents to get in, 'cause he wanted to pay the actors. And it was like the most, it was the beginning of his professionalism. - Right. The opening experience at someone would actually do that. - Right. - And then you go through comedy for years where not, that does not happen. - Right. - So you, instead of doing, just acting, you were drawn to stand up at that time, is that when you knew you wanted to stand up? - No, I went through years and years of being a failed musician. - That's a lie. - This first song. (laughing) I mean, I've been promoting this CD that I haven't done for many years, which is just apologizing for my music. It's called Easy Listened, but not that easy. - Excellent. Yeah, I always say my band was the funniest thing I ever did, but now it's just intentional. - 'Cause every song I ever wrote had some tragic flaw. I'll give you an example. And they weren't bad. They really weren't bad. They just weren't that good. - Right. Well, that's a very fine line. - Well, let me see if I can play this. ♪ It's a string, it's a, it's a string situation ♪ ♪ I said I find myself in ♪ ♪ Perhaps you'll have been there too ♪ ♪ Yes, I'm caught between ♪ ♪ A hard place ♪ But now I'm fucked because I wrote myself into a box. - Right, right. - So that's the first song. - And that's the first song. - Yeah. - What's your favorite TV theme song of all time? - "Shine." - Is it "Shine?" - "Shine." - As we'll get dreamy-eyed, ♪ Will you be camping tonight? ♪ (laughing) - What a weird question to ask somebody. Hey, will you be camping tonight? I don't know. - It's in this for me. - Tonight we ask the musical question, "Will you be camping tonight?" Which sounds like a '50s game show. If you lose, you go camping. Or maybe if you win, you go camping. I don't know, it is, it depends on your economic situation. - Move along. - Right. So he was a big, I think he was a native American, okay, Clint Walker. - Yes, he was obviously a very different experience growing up in Manhattan than these Western shows. It must have seemed like a million miles away from anything that you'd experienced. Was that why it was appealing? - Yeah, I wanted to be the rifleman's son, Johnny Crawford. - Not him, but his son. - Yeah, although I love the rifle he had, you know. - He'd flip it around? - Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Chuck Connors went on to an illustrious career in B horror films in the '70s. Was there anyone that you met, that you had watched on television growing up that really just sort of star struck you? Aside from Carson. - Well, buddy Hackett came to me when I was casting a show or a pilot and he said, "Jeb, I don't need a job, I just need a place to go." What a sad thing to say. - Every day I go to Perry Como's grave. - Buddy Hackett goes to Perry Como's grave every day. And so he just wanted a job so we could do something else. - That could have just been his opening line, you know? - And he with no punchline. - Right. - And you didn't ask for any follow-up and he's like, "I had a great hit that was gonna finish that." - Try that, staples, you know. See how that goes. - So I was a huge fan, still I'm a huge fan of Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World, which he's great in. Did you feel star struck when you met him for your show? Was it weird to you to be like, "I'm casting a show and Buddy Hackett is coming to me?" - No, I think I cast it. - So I did a pilot with Robert Clann, Peter Fock, Marcia Gehar, David Paymark, and Jane Adams. - When was this? - In the '40s. - In the '90s. - No. - I think in '19, what year was that, Katie, from where I sit, do you think? - '90-ish? - Yes. - Early '90s? - I think it was part of a deal I had with, with DreamWorks that had to make TV shows. - Yeah, and this was before Dr. Katz? - Or after Dr. Katz? - It was during. - 'Cause that was where most people probably know you from, is Dr. Katz. - If that was said of my Hollywood calling cards. - Right, right. And did you, how did Tom Snyder sell that to you? Was he just like, "I wanna do an animated show "and I saw you in this movie?" - Well, that was not the first, we worked on a few other projects first. - Okay. - One was called Live from the Teachers Lounge, which is now a work series. Somebody's making. But he and his wife were both teaching at Shady Hill, became rich and he thought that was a funny premise. Oh, what he did was a funny vocation and he's still very good at finding situations. He himself is a very funny guy, but he's especially good at finding scenarios in which people can do comedy. - Right, that octocats was one of them. - Right. - And it was a show called Dick & Pull, a celebrity chat show. - Yes. - And it's a season in FX. - And Science Court. - Science Court's a little more high concept, but the compliment of a low concept show is that it's, you know, Dr. Katz to me was in a lot of people that I talked to, was essentially a stand up show. I mean, in a lot of ways. - Well, 11 minutes of an episode was. - Yeah, but it was presented in such a way that you didn't feel like you were seeing stand up, which was really great. - And for me in time, the part we like was the parts with Ben and Laura. - Right. - The stand up was just 11 minutes of material that had already been written. - And was that sort of the end to get it on Comedy Central? 'Cause I noticed as the seasons went on, the stuff with Ben and Laura got longer and longer. - Yeah, it was a great marketing tool, the comedians, but not really the heart of the show for me. - Right. Did you like animation when you were growing up? Were there cartoons that you, not at all? - I still don't. I'm not crazy about it. - Right. So many cartoons, some black and white cartoons, Felix. - Felix. - No big Felix the cat fan. I think you mentioned you liked the Phil Solver show. - Yes. - And Top Cat was basically Phil Solver's. - Yeah. Well, I was when I told a man that I was writing a script. I didn't have to write a script. He said, "Go to the library, look at Central "and get a Phil Solver script." - By Nat Heingen's script from the Phil Solver show? - Yeah. - Yeah, Nat Heingen might be my favorite television runner of all time. - Are you practicing? - I think it's Heingen, H-I-K-E-N, not Heingen. - Right. - He was an old Oddville guy. - Right. - And so he created the Phil Solver show and then also did Car54RU, which is one of my all time favorites. And he only made one movie, this movie "The Love God" with Don Knots, and then he died before the movie came out. But his scripts were the precursor to things like "Curb Your Enthusiasm" and "Seinfeld" where they were very, very complicated series of misunderstandings that just built on themselves. And George Burns and Gracie Helen. That was such an incredibly funny show. - Innovative. - Yeah, yeah, they had cameras all over the house, but I remember one scene that stayed with me was Gracie staring at a painting and their neighbor, Harry Vons, all comes over. He said, "What is that a painting of?" She said, "It's a guy of course." And Harry says, "Well, where is he?" I guess he rode away. She was just like the ultimate dumb. But always was still sort of a step ahead of people sometimes that she would come out on top. So you started doing stand-up 79, 80, somewhere around there? - 81. - 81. And still in New York. - Right. - I think the ultimate goal for stand-ups at that point was probably to get us to come. That seemed to be what people were striving for. - Yeah, I didn't like the little migrating. When I started from New York to LA, Paul Reiser. - Yep. - "Seinfeld" was the first lead, then Reiser who did "Man About You" for years. - He wrote the theme song to that. - Yeah. - Oh, Larry Miller. But I forgot his sitcom. He just was a great guy. - Yeah, he would get started and stuff a lot. Robert Klein weirdly would do mostly dramatic stuff. He was in a great episode of "The New Twilight Zone" in 1985. - What's it called? - "The New Twilight Zone." So they brought "The Twilight Zone" back in '95, and Robert Klein is in an excellent episode of that. He was in a great episode of the New Alfred Hitchcock Hour, and he would do a lot of things like that. - I'm not quite sure. But this special is where he does a particular line that made me laugh at loud. 'Cause he's just, and differently was as heavily into as the rest of my peers. There was a scene he was doing in a special about, there was a bit about this guy who was caught with his pants and on a bathroom, Larry Craig. - Mm-hmm. - Was he a senator? - Senator Craig, yesterday. - I have a wide stance senator. - Right, right. - He says, "As Larry Craig said." So he walks into the book, he says, "I could settle here." (laughing) - No, that cracked me up. - Like, he's traveling west. He's trying to find the new land. So you did "Dr. Katzen" at the same time, it was pretty recognizably huge show on Comedy Central, sort of right away, as I recall it. I don't know if that's true or not. Was that the case? It was pretty popular right out of the game. It was a cult hit, but not just, it was all the cults. - Yes, every single cult, the moonies were very into it. - Right. - And so you got these development deals and you did a series of shows after that. Did you do ink? Was ink after that? - Ink. - Why don't I say it like that? (laughing) - Correct, it's pronounced ink. - You say ink. - Yeah, ink. - Yeah, I pronounce it I-N-K, and it's I-N-C. - That's correct, yeah. - Yeah, that was fun with Ted Dance and then his wife, Marystein Virgin. - And so you had a hand in creating that show? Were you just on that show or you had a hand in creating that show? - No, no, I was just an actor. - You were just an actor on that? - It was my first time working in front of a live audience on TV, and everyone was very nervous to be able to do it, and I think, because I had learned how to hold to the live, which you had to do in front of live audience, but worked out okay, and I told the director, a guy named Tommy Schlami, that's true. - Tommy Schlami? - Yup, and I said, "Tommy, I can't walk and talk "at the same time." And I was wondering if that was for years, if that was my MS, but it turns out it was just my acting. - Right, right, right, that's happened for a lot of people. - Yeah, yeah. - So he figured out this solution where I would just be, I would be on the other side of the door every time Ted opened the door. I was just there. - So you didn't have to walk to the door? - Right, yeah. - And I would scare the shit out of him, because he was, I was, my character was called The Angel of Death, that was his nickname. - Unofficially? - No, no, it was on the show actually. - Did you watch the show? Did you watch yourself on television? Was that weird for you? Were you excited? Did you use to watch things when you would appear? - Well, what was exciting was my dad died around the same time, and as he was being on a gurney going to his deathbed, he said, "Dad, check this out." (laughing) - Well, it's good you got it in there, right, before, you know, did you actually see it? - Yeah, yeah, he did, he was so proud that I had succeeded, he would, he would never laugh at anything I said unless somebody his age was laughing. - Right, if it was okay. - Yeah. - So did you, did your parents watch you when you first let him in appearance? - My mom was, died when I was very young. - Oh, I'm sorry, I don't know. - She was in the car with Kennedy. (laughing) But it was the same year. - Yeah, yeah. - And he was shot, she died. - And he overshadows yet again. - And there's one thing about Kennedy, the man was a spotlight hulk. - Yeah. - My favorite junk Kennedy thing is, in his, we'll go to the moon speech, there's a line he says that no one's been able to explain to me. And I've looked up transcripts of this speech and he goes, "We will go to the moon, "we will go to the moon and do that other thing." - Yeah. - And he says that in the speech and never references the other thing again. And I've looked at speeches before then, and after that I'm like, "What? "What is the other thing that he's talking about "in this national speech?" And no one's been able to answer it. - That's fine. - We will do that other thing. I just want a president to be that big now. - My dad was so uncomfortable with the truth when I was at age, when Kennedy died that he told me it was whiplash. - He just had whiplash? - Yep. - And he cannot be president with whiplash, that we have Lyndon Johnson coming in. Did you, you didn't see that on the coverage on television as a kid, did you? - Well, I was 15 years older, I think. - So I didn't see it, why? - Right. - So the broadcast night comes. - Yeah, in fact, he was watching it when I got here. - Yeah. - Listen, it was over and over. - I have a cousin who still thinks it's an ongoing-- - Conspiracy? - Yeah. - I never got the conspiracy. - That's the other thing. - Yeah, that's the other thing. We will have an ongoing conspiracy. Maybe he was gonna tell everyone what the other thing was, and that's why they told him out. After that you did, was it raising dad? Was that the next day you did after, I think? - Stuff in between, I mean, it did show us a term. Somewhere in between Inc, there was a pilot for CBS, couple of anime shows with Tom. - And you would go out to Los Angeles to do shows? - Yeah, I was creative because I was flying on someone else's dime. - Right, so you go in first class. - What's his dime, you're-- - Sit down. - Sit down. - He doesn't die. - Yeah, he also put a cigarette in his mouth when he said it for some of his first time. But you never moved there. - Did you not like it out there? - No, I didn't until I don't. Although it was fun being paid so much. - Right. - And I didn't realize that it was the executive producer of the show and the creator of the show until I got there. And I saw this list of several hundred names of mine at the top, because it was a typo. - You're in charge of this. - Yeah, it wasn't at all ready to do it. - You didn't think you were ready to do it? - No. - So how did you just kinda fall into that show? - Well, I ended up hiring this guy, Norman Steinberg, who did not had to produce TV shows. - Right. - So to rescue me. - So how did you end up being in that position in the first place? - I wrote a good script. - That's all it took? - I said that's so Jewish. (laughing) I think I'm comfortable. - I said, well, the people aren't Jewish here. - I wrote a good script. - What? - Yes, it's so hard, do I? - So, do you've been trying to write these scripts for a while to get these shows off the ground and that one just hit with the networks? - Well, Norman said to me, I auditioned for him for a show called Dr. Doctor. - With Matt Fruer? - Yes, and he didn't cast me, but he let me know in such a nice way that a couple of years later I sent him this script, which was called, at the time, and Brendan was working for me at the time, it's called, "In Your Dreams." And he said, Jonathan, you've written a template for a sitcom. And I didn't know if that was a good thing or bad. - Right, right, right. - That's what I apologized. - And were you trying to write like a film script and he said it was a template for a sitcom for? - I didn't, that just was writing because he was getting paid to write stuff. - Right, right, right. And so that show had Bob Saget in it. - Kat Denings. - And Kat Denings. - Brie Larson. - Jerry Adler. - Did you feel that show was - Don't like your ass on the road, we have company. - He's not talking to me, everybody, it's the dog. (laughing) From what you envisioned creating, did what ended up on the air, live up to what you thought it would be? - No. - No. That's something I hear over and over again from people who've created things on the other side. - No, it's just my own fault. I wish he could see this in a more delicate way, but my manager at the time said, Larry David could kick a dump on the sound stage and nobody would object. (laughing) Meaning that he would just fight for whatever he wanted. - Right. - I was not that guy. - Right. - I would fight for whatever Larry David wanted. - Right, and he wanted to take a dump on your sound stage. - Rich. - So you got put in this position of power that you don't have that sort of personality. - I didn't know how to wield the power. I'm like a, I run a very small business now. I mean, I started in 1996, we were incorporated. And at the time, it was just me and one other employee. And now it's me and one other employee. - So that's not, at least it didn't shrink with the economy constricting. When you made this show and you kind of saw, start to finish how a show was created and got on the air and for better or worse, is or isn't like you envisioned it. Did it sort of ruin your enjoyment of watching other television shows later? Do you still watch things now? Or like you said, you ruined things for your wife. Can you personally enjoy watching anything? - I can, and it's not really comedy that I like so much. I like dark. Well, I had somebody called Fargo, a comedy. - I'm ready. - Have you seen it? - I haven't seen it yet, but I've heard it's very good. - Yeah, it's kind of like the movie, but darker. You can imagine that? - So you like the sort of gallows humor of-- - Yeah, I kind of like shows with, I like shows with good guys and bad guys. I would watch the Sopramas long after it was off the air and I would watch an episode until I would wake, I like to wake up to violence. - Don't we all? What a great album title that would be "Wake up to violence." - Smell the blood. - Which sounds like such a film noir, like pulp book, "Wake up to violence." - I sometimes feel like my taste in TV is like a teenage girl because I like Dexter. - Because he's cute. - No, because he shows violence. - Yeah, so you like anti-heroes and violence? - Oh, but it was so hot. I had two daughters who said that for years and years. - Did you have to watch things with them that they wanted to watch and anything you just were like, I don't understand this at all. - I don't want tree hills, a good example. I would never have watched that on my own. - And did you get into it? - I got into the character named Skills. - Were Skills very violent? - No, but he was a, I guess it was two to girl was one of the characters. That's Skills. I watched much to myself too. - But those shows can be very engrossing. - They're so trashy. - Oh, they're horribly trashy. I worked at a local network affiliate when I was in college and we had to watch the feed all day. And by the third week I was into the silk operas. Like begrudgingly, you know, you just stop and they're sort of almost hypnotic that you just get into this trashy plot line and they're almost perfectly designed to hook you into them. - Nashville is a trashy show to watch. - Nashville? - That's the trip that Katie and I made to Nashville where I performed and we went to that club which is one of the sets of the show. What's that called? - The Grand Old Alpha? - Blueberry. - Blueberry? - Blueberry. - That's the show with what's her name? - Connie Britton. - Connie Britton, yes, from Cambridge, Massachusetts. - Oh, did she? - She is from Cambridge, yes, she grew up in Cambridge. She was great on Spin City, which was, she was very, very funny on that show. - She said no, she was on Spin City. - Yeah, she was on from the beginning. And it's interesting that she-- - She's a dream work show. - Yes, yes. - One of the two times I met Michael J. Fox. They went to the set with my partners in DreamWorks. - Oh, that's one of my favorite shows in the 90s. That was Gary David Goldberg. - Yeah. - Who did "Family Ties." - He died recently. - He did, he died about maybe a year or two ago. He was great, I mean, he did Brooklyn Bridge, which was an excellent show. - Yeah, so when you were working in DreamWorks, did you often go visit the sets of the other shows that were producing? - I did. - Just 'cause you were curious? - Well, not so much a dream, it's more paramount because there was, you know, the same set that we shot in kind of was also used in "Cheers" and other shows of his-- - Right. - So to swap out the sets. - That's very interesting. Were you fascinated by the sort of behind-the-scenes mechanics of that? - I'd say curious. - Just how it worked. - I think you're the dance fascinating. - I am slightly fascinated by the dance that probably would not be fascinating. - You know, it's very cool to walk, to see these sets of New York City, was probably where they shoot, where they shot some (speaks in foreign language) - And how authentic did it seem to you having come from there? - Had me fooled. - Yeah. - I looked at West 88th Street for a while and looked just like it. - So if you, if they drugged you when you just woke up on that street and be like, "You're in New York," you'd be like, "I guess I am." - He has a camera lot, that's a pretty cool place. - I have not been, I've always wanted to go and see sort of where the monster's house is and all that sort of stuff. - Have you worked on cameras and actors? - I never have. I never have. - So that's a good reason to go there. - It is a good reason. I've asked people, you know, "Hey, why don't you put me on camera as an actor?" And they are like, "You have to be able to act for that." And also you have to be younger and better looking and also talented. I've tried to do those things, but then, you know, I just, I can't pass the acting test that they have. - It's so acting for film is so easy. - Is it really? - What if you do it in life, just do it a hundred times smaller? If there was a camera where you are now and I was talking to a newer filmmaker and I'd be saying the same thing to you, but Ken, I'm really, I'm just so much smaller. - This is just ripping me up inside. This is just mission accomplished. - And then I'll go like this. Can you hear me back there? (both laughing) - Prank it. - So how do I resist? So you would have obviously these film set experiences with me and that were probably more intimate, I guess. And you're filming in this much smaller way. And then to go from that to your next sort of nom, stand up role is in front of a live audience and a sitcom, you can't get any more different from that. - I know it's pretty jarring, but I think the first time the director ever said the word action, action to me, I said, "Do you mean now?" (both laughing) - Did you, do you have a preference for that sort of stuff? 'Cause some of the stuff you've done with me was pretty dark like House of Games. - Yeah, which I didn't, I did not appear in. - But you're co-wrote with him, right? - I co-wrote the story, he invited me to come out to Seattle and play the role, but I thought he was kidding. - Did you really, yeah, you was kidding. (both laughing) - It's an odd mixture of, I think a lot of people are probably surprised of this connection and you say, you like these sort of dark, violent shows, which I assume you actually do. (both laughing) - Tenepypants. - Oh, nice, nice. Many people have allergic reactions while I am. (both laughing) - You know, if it gets done by me, I have my EpiPen, but I'm just looking for Hank at you right now. - When you create these things, and they kind of go out into the world, is it odd to you to have people come to you and have watched you on television on all these different capacities over the years and have a sort of familiarity with you that is almost falsely, you know, they feel like they know you and do a weird degree because of television. - And that is the longest sentence. - It really is, it really is, that's a grown-on sentence. - There's a false sense of familiarity people have, I think, for people who are on television, more than people in films because it's sort of an intimate thing. - I think people know my voice and my likeness much better than they know me. That happened to me in the Berkshires, we would spend part of the summer near Tannlewood, and I went strove to this very tiny airport just to get away from my family. I'm kidding about that. (both laughing) The guy said, "You sound familiar." And he had picked my voice from Dr. Cat. Does that happen on the phone and things to you all the time? - It did, you know, people would hear me different parts of the world on TV's. - Yeah, I mean, when I lived in England, Dr. Cat's was on very frequently. - How long have you lived there? - I lived there for about a year, I'll send, Dr. Cat's was on two or three times a day. - On ITV2. - On ITV2. - It was on an ITV2, I think, yeah. - And apparently, it's still on the air and Puerto Rico going into my sister. - Really? - She's a little confused. - She might just have the DVDs and doesn't want to take them out of the player. - Well, my dad once was a guest appearance, excuse me, on the Phil Donahue show. - Did it really, for what was the topic? - The thing was seniors who date. - Oh, nice. - So he was a guest on that. And then he left the show with a VHS tape. - Yes, of the show that he wrote. - Right, so he would call me at one of the ones who, "John, I'm on TV again." (both laughing) He would know that he'd just push the remote. - At least he didn't think he was trapped in the television. And that's happened to some people as well. - Do you want to see that? We have that on there. - Oh, do you have the Phil Donahue? - Oh, I got it. - I have it transferred. Actually, when we, you and I performed on a show for Eugene Merman's Festival, and one of the comics actually was, and I don't think you were in the room when they said this, but they said, "Oh, that's Jonathan Katz. "I've never seen him not as a cartoon." That has to be strange. I imagine it's probably good at the anonymity's probably interesting, but it's also strange. - I'm being cartoon famous is so different because if you're in a restaurant, well, I can get recognized in Los Angeles often, but if I'm in Newton in a restaurant, I would have to go, if I was in a restaurant and say, "Somebody, look at me, too long as you." Oh, thank you very much. I enjoyed making you. (both laughing) - 'Cause would that have it a lot when people come up to you and sort of-- - No. - Just the room in your day? - They wouldn't come up to me. I'd have to point out that I'm the guy. - That you're the guy who knows it? - Yeah, I'm that kind of famous, where I have to tell people of him famous. - That you're famous? - Yeah, well, that's not a bad position to be in. You still do a lot of cartoon voiceover work. You're in a very good episode of Adventure Time that I enjoyed very much. It must be even more strange where you sort of record these things almost in a vacuum. You kind of have no idea how they're gonna lose it. When you watch it, you're just like, "I have no idea this was what we were going to be doing." - Well, I did a series called Hopeless Pictures. Everybody else was in LA. - And it was what, Hollywood Agents. - Right. - It was all the time when the animation was kind of cool. - Yeah. - And along with this room, everybody else, is it having fun? - Right, right. They would all record together and do some recording. Yeah, I mean, in some ways you have the technology and the capability to do that, which is great. But then also, it's sort of isolating, I imagine. - I'm a little lonely. - You're a little lonely? We could get all those people here in record record shows. Do you often watch the voiceover stuff? 'Cause I imagine that would be sort of a different experience than ink or something, where it's a live audience. You kind of saw the whole show because it sort of almost went in real time. So this, you just sort of get a script. You do your lines and then you're like, I have no idea what this will be like. And are you more curious to see that? - Actually, not unlike, I think Bob Albelman was sort of fascinated by Dr. Katz. And also by another project that we did with his voice called the Traven Township, a full length feature, which was recorded the audio for the entire movie. And we did about 45 seconds of animation. - So nothing ever came of it? - Well, yet. Oh, you're still, you're still, like, to really sit at some point? - Yeah, it's so good. It's so good. Sir Bob Albelman, David Pamer, a guy named Tom Lee called me, my daughter Julia. - Oh, from Julie's point of view, fame. - Adventure Time Weirdly has a lot of Boston comedians on that show. - Isn't Tom Kenny in that? - Tom Kenny is on it. Marin does a voice on it. Tom Kenny does a lot of voices on it. - The guy who created it, though, is-- - Penn Ward. - Yeah, it is, like me an eccentric guy. I think you sort of have to be to create things. - Every once in a while, I offer people unsolicited advice. And I almost did it on Twitter the other day, which is about not confusing the creator of a show with the actual person, that the character that he creates. And I was thinking of Louis in particular. - But don't you think that there are true aspects of them in the show? I mean, they're not exactly that way, but, you know, it's exaggerated versions, I guess. Do a lot of people think you're a doctor? Oh, for years, people in Newton, if somebody yelled help on the streets, I would go out. I would have thought of citaloprams. That's kind of anti-depressible. - Everybody just chill out. If you could have appeared on or written for a show that you watched as a kid, what would it be? - Sure. - Yeah. (laughing) - I have gum or travel as a great show. - Yeah. Would you have been a villain or a hero? White had or black had? - I think I would have, I'd like to be a bad guy and something. I've never really played a really-- - I think you could be a good bad guy. - Yeah. - Like did you see Drive with Albert Brooks as a really chilling bad guy? - Oh, I did. I want to read. - Yeah. He was terrifying in that. - Yeah. - And I think that there's something to be said for sort of calm, comedic actors being really chilling. And-- - Well, an alcoholic. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Not a comedian. - No, not at all. - Yeah, I do enjoy laughing at him. - Yeah. - One night I was standing outside the comedy studio in Cambridge with a very large comedian and John Malkovich walked by 'cause he got, I don't know if he still does, but I believe he was living in California. - Ah! - Dog hates Malkovich. And the other comic was like, "Oh, we're going to a comedy show. "Would you like to come to the show?" Which was a weird thing to ask anyone on the street. And John Malkovich goes, "Oh, absolutely not." (laughing) It was funny. I was like, "It's a pretty funny guy." - Matt wrote a really great joke about John Malkovich being, he's a classically trained actor. - Yes. - And he wants to put on 40 pounds for a voiceover. (laughing) - Well, you can tell, I mean, you can tell behind the mic when people are doing that. So you'd want to be on a Western, if you could. - Yeah. - If you could be on there. - Yeah. I'd like to be, well, the thing about Paladin, who's a guy from Have Gun Will Travel, is that he was very eloquent and before he would kill somebody, he'd quote Shakespeare. And then he'd give him his card, which said, "Have Gun Will Travel." I don't have it, this is just my amics. - Right, right. - "Have Gun Will Travel." And then he'd shoot them. - Yeah. Which is kind of a waste of cards. - Yeah. - Would he take the card back after? You're not gonna need this. - Hey, look, give the card back. - Do you think Westerns would ever make a comeback? I mean, you'd have stuff like Deadwood, but do you think society sort of moved past it? - Every TV show on the air now would be better as an adult Western. Everything from carpenter enthusiasts. - Sex in the city. - Sex in the city. And somebody was just about vests. - Yeah. - But I think there's just something about good guys and bad guys. - So you like very clear heroes and villains. - Yes. - They don't like the ambiguity. - That's not the name of an album. - Heroes and Villains? It's a song by the Beach Boys. - Yeah. - Yeah. - It's on Smile. - We know too much. - I know. And it does me no good. I don't know what I'm gonna do with this song. - Oh, now you're Jewish. - Yeah. Now I'm Jewish. This is what happened. - You've got a full cycle. - Oh, I'll try my life if you're Jewish. - Well, I am of Norwegian descent, so maybe I've gotten that. - All right. - Yeah. (laughing) - That sounded just like a Norwegian people. (laughing) - Do people from Norway sound Swedish? - I don't know. My grandfather came from Norway, but he moved here when he was about 10 and he just sounded angry. I don't know if that was inherent to the Norwegian people or not. - But if you wanna sound Swedish, this is something I get down my various wife discovered. You just say the word, the town that we're in right now. If you say it twice in a rodeo sound Swedish. - Newton Newton. - Newton Newton. - Oh, nice. - Yes. - Of the fig fame? (laughing) - You didn't believe that. Harry did not believe that Newton seemed after the fig. Well, fig Newton is named after the city. - Yeah. You thought it was named after Sir Isaac? - I didn't think it was named after anything. - Oh. - I didn't know it was actually. - Oh, yes. - This is Jaden. - It was the official cookie at Massachusetts. There was a big fight between the Toll House and the fig Newton as to what the official cookie at Massachusetts would be. There was actually a lawsuit in England about whether these things called Jaffa Cakes, which are basically cookies, when cookies are cakes, because there's a tariff on cookies, but not on cakes. So in England, they have a legal definition of cookie and cake. So just to wrap up, I always say, the TV Guide is not just informative, it has opinions, and it cheers and it cheers. Yeah. And if you had a cheer-a-jear for television from when you were growing up, what would they be? - Cheyenne for both? - No, no, no. I think the show that there's a kid I knew was just dopey. - Believe it to be. - Yeah, that's a good, I actually have a, just almost brought in a picture of the beaver, which is a, - Jerry? - Yeah. - Have you met him? - No, but there's a photo of him from the show in the pool hall. - Is it Holocaust? - No. (laughs) There's still time. So those were the show that some of the shows just were arriving. - Yeah, down to a read show. - You never liked that read? - No, I mean, it just seemed a little too. Maybe I'm imposing my... - Unrealistic? - Maybe I'm imposing my adult mind onto my childhood. Because I can't imagine that I would even know what the word sophistication meant. - But I think you probably have a sense of it, I imagine. I mean, there are definitely shows that kids can watch and just be like, - Right now. - This is not like real life. - I also love Jerry Lewis. - I like the kid. - Look, look, Jerry Lewis movies. And apparently it's sort of Bob Dylan. - Really? - Bob Dylan wanted to make a sitcom with Larry Charles, who's one of the curp guys. - Yeah. - One of the things, based on Jerry Lewis movies, he wanted to make a very physical sitcom. - And he would star him? - Yeah. - Wow, I would watch that. - Bob, are you making too much noise? - It's a pretty good noise though. It's been a consistent rumor. - It's winter, yeah. - My final question for you then is if there was a theme song, "Assage from China," that you wish you wrote, what was it? ♪ Sugarfoot ♪ (laughs) ♪ Never underestimate a sugarfoot ♪ - What about a sugarfoot shot and cross the line? - But I also think the best theme song ever for TV show is the Perry Mason thing. - Yeah. ♪ But I don't know ♪ - Dude, yeah. See like the instrumental theme songs. - Yes, Letterman used to play me on with that show. - Full Shaper. - Did you ask for that? - Yeah. - Yeah. - You also play that me on with Mr. Big Stuff. (laughs) - Ah. - Did you ask for Mr. Big Stuff? - I did. - Excellent. - It's such a good thing, and Willie is a guy who will be four Letterman. - Oh yeah, yeah. - He's a bass player. - Yeah. Excellent, excellent. Well, Jonathan Katz, thank you so much for doing the show. - Oh, Ken, thank you so much for coming with me. These next Yiddish folk tales. (laughs) Yeah, thank you for making the trip. - Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Happy to come to Newton this time of year. - You should check out the billiard room. - Oh, yeah? - The trip, kind of like a little recognize and stuff from there. - Oh, yeah, absolutely. - Yeah, I'll check it out. - Cool, thank you. - Thank you. (claps) - Get up. (laughs) (hip hop music) - And that was our episode with Jonathan Katz. I still have to research this, but I'm fairly certain this is true. That is our first, and thus far only, Emmy winner we've had on the show so far, so hopefully one of many to come in the future. Thanks to you for listening, and as always, please email me at candidateikendread.com. Let me know what you think of the show. If you have requests, if you have complaints, if you have questions, anything I love hearing from people, please continue to review the show, rate the show on iTunes. Like us on Facebook, we'll have more contests coming up. You can win some cool classic television memorabilia from my personal collection, and be sure to check back next week for a brand new episode of TV guidance counselor. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (music)