Hey everybody, welcome to Leading Thriving Cities, our show where we shine a spotlight on leadership in public service and have deep conversations about sustainability and how we build a thriving future for our cities. My name is Chad Wright. I'm the founder of Ford Partners. Today's guest is Dalton Rice. He's the city manager of Kerville, Texas. He and I met at TCMA this year and he and I have the best conversations about leadership. He really gets into this idea of collaboration among teams and how we tear down silos by collaborating together. We really talk about the idea that there are some unique challenges facing the future of city management and we are going to have to get really creative to find those solutions. I know you're going to find so much value in this conversation. Thanks for joining us on Leading Thriving Cities. Dalton, thank you for joining us on Leading Thriving Cities. We're going to jump right into the first question. You and I, before the camera started, were talking about the complexity of being a city manager. What's one thing you wish people really understood about this job? You know, I compare the city manager job, you know, very much to the entrepreneurial side around in a business, obviously, I'm very familiar with it and I'm familiar with the fact that no one should do it in a way. No one should also do the public service side, but no, in all seriousness, you know, I compare it to running a business. In a normal business, you have a market that you're trying to find. You're doing a service, a product, something that you're trying to introduce and you're trying to get a target market. My target market already exists. I can't change it, but I still have to provide those services. Just how I provide those services is very different. That's the difference right there. That's the difference. And so it is, you know, when you look at the CEO equivalent, which is a city manager, we have multiple business, multiple businesses that we're running. Some make money enterprises, some don't make money, you know, fire, PD, some of their just to serve. They're just, they're, they're, they're just to serve. And so, you know, really city hall, in a way, city manager's office is a holding company trying to balance all of these different services or product, if you will, and how do we make it into one simple machine? Yeah. All within a budget. All within a budget. People thriving and, you know, one of the graphics we show at these retreats and things we do is about an org chart and what it normally looks like. And then we flip it upside down to show them how much pressure is really on the person at the top of that org chart really there at the bottom of a very unstable pyramid, right? Yeah. And in city management, there's then this layer of five to seven people underneath the city manager. Yeah. And you would think that would provide more stability and it can, in theory, provide more stability if that team is united. And one of the complex parts of being a city manager is being that, that filter and buffer between the staff and the council. And that's such a unique role that I don't, I know it exists in terms of CEOs and boards, but it's different because the board isn't random people that decide they want to be on the board. They're selected, right? Exactly. And so I think there's some unique challenges there for city managers. There is, you know, a private sector board or nonprofit board are selected versus a city council who is elected, you know, and they're not even necessarily elected by the majority of the population. And so how do you have, and this applies to both citizens and residents that we serve, but also our internal teams, how do you have the greatest impact on the most amount of people while minimizing the negative impact on the least amount of people? Yeah. And it's a constant balance. And so yeah, when you kind of turn that pyramid upside down, you know, I instantly go to leadership, you know, when it comes to that, from dynamic leadership to bottom-up leadership, you know, how does that apply? But yeah, in a way, the city manager is kind of an umbrella to, you know, to, I say protect, but navigate the cultural challenges, you know, of both the workforce and, you know, and the community and the council and really navigating it's probably the right word, right? Because there are days, and this may not be your council, but I've seen this across a lot of cities. There are days where it is protect the staff from the council or protect the staff from one council member. And that's a weird part of the job when combined with how do we also get things done? And I'm interested in this idea of city managers leading the council, not from a, I'm in charge of you perspective, but from a, I'm going to provide this unifying force to try to bring the council and the staff together to accomplish the council's goals. Yeah, you know, the way I kind of described that, and I'm sure there's some official terms for it, but leading up, you know, you got to lead up. And, you know, you got to do it through advice, through guidance, you know, through council, in a way, pun intended, and, you know, and, and how you go about doing that changes drastically. You know, I have five council members now. We do have a very stable council. We have elections every two years, and so that can shift. So it's also not just about navigating, you know, the council's now, but navigating some of the future challenges that may persist. Yeah. And for me, I'd say that comes pretty naturally. I'm typically a cleanup guy. I'm the one that kind of seeks out those, those crazy, you know, councils. You like a good challenge. I like a good challenge, you know, and, and I like to feel like, I feel like I'm good at it. You know, again, it's, it's not about the conflict. You know, we talked a little, you know, kind of off camera about that. It's not about the conflict in the, in the necessarily a challenge. It's about, hey, we have the ability to do that. And when things get kind of tough, I don't ever underestimate the conflict, but we navigate it. And how do we, how do we navigate it for the short term, just like forecasting on a budget, we have to also navigate the political, you know, challenges and political landscape changing to make sure that we can withstand those ebbs and flows throughout, throughout government. Conflict, when it comes to city management, conflict is such an interesting thing that I don't know that it gets talked about enough. Probably not, because there's often conflict with the staff and the team that you have to help navigate and get in the middle of. There's conflict amongst the council sometimes that you have to navigate. And like I said, leading up when there's conflicts is difficult, but conflict often causes in most of us fight or flight. And the reality is there's almost this middle ground that is most effective. If all we ever do is fight, that's not, we're just fighting, right? If all we ever do is run away, we're not solving problems. So where is that moment where we know where to push and we know where to back away that, that kind of diplomacy point, right? Where we're being the most diplomatic, we're bridging the most gaps. How do you navigate that? Man, that is probably the question of the hour. And I don't know. It changes on a day-to-day basis. You know, I think the best way that we as anybody, humans, you know, leaders, emerging leaders, you know, dealing with our kids, we can, I can go into some topics about parenting. And I've learned more about leadership through raising twins and my oldest son that I ever have learned about city management. We always tell people everything in leadership comes back to marriage and parenting. Yep, exactly. Everything does. And so, you know, I think the best way to kind of tackle that as you're growing as a person, you know, is look at your attributes, you know, dive into that emotional intelligence, you know, start looking into yourself of how do I gain those attributes that can help me overcome some of these. Adaptability is huge, you know, improv to a certain extent. We think of it from comedy, but in reality, you know, it's something that we need to be able to pick up and very quick-wittedly think on our feet to either make a good decision, a bad decision, or kind of that neutral decision. And sometimes you just got to stick your foot in your mouth and then, you know, de-escalate it and, you know, come back from it. You know, sometimes you got to walk away. And so there's some strategy to it. You're never going to get it right, you know, every single time or even half the time. Again, it goes back to how do you have the greatest impact on the most while minimizing, you know, the least impact on the least? Yeah. It's interesting too, when you think about conflict and having to navigate that, when there's a relationship there ahead of time, it's so much easier. When I'm fighting with my wife, we're going to figure this out. We are not going to let whatever we're arguing about in the moment break 23 years of marriage. If I'm fighting with a random stranger, that is less likely to go well because I have no long-term attachment to this person. So how do you navigate developing those relationships with both council and staff so that when you do have to navigate conflict, it's, you have the long-term outlook to want to do it well. Yeah. You know, that's, it's kind of interesting. You know, when you think about that, those that you have relationships, you got the ice picks that you know, sting, you know, and you know, as a husband, sometimes I feel it. I'm like, who I burn. Whereas a stranger, you don't have that. So it's transactional. It's, you know, there's less emotion behind it, which can also be good and bad. And so understanding both the relationship side and the non-relationship side, as you're navigating it, I think that can help make decisions based off of what you have because if you have a relationship, you can intentionally harm that person, you know, verbally, through the knowledge that you have and the relationship that you have, that trust that you have. And so there is a, there is a balance between navigating those cultures. Yeah. You know, when you come into an organization, especially as a city manager, whether you're a new director, a new supervisor, you know, new city manager, you're having to find those balances. And especially if you can't come in and just clean house, which it's not always a good thing, you know, there's time and place for that, but it's not always the case. You have to establish this, this time that you've got to build a relationship while still being productive, while still navigating the political, you know, challenges. It's time, the hardest part of that, because you have, I tell people that are not city managers, you have no idea the weight they're bearing and the amount of pulls on their time. And so it's finding time to build those relationships, the hardest piece of it. You have to be deliberate. You definitely have to be intentional. So, you know, I, there's a couple books out there. They all kind of talk about the same thing. But, you know, when I, when I first got the city manager job and curvil, I've been there just over a year. Okay. I spent the first 100 days building relationships. My goal was to meet, you know, every single person I could in the community that had some type of influence, you know, nonprofits, directors. I wanted to meet every single team member in the community. We have 350 team members, you know, on staff, all internal external stakeholders. And I think it was like 100 days with about over 150 hours worth of meetings. And you have to be intentional about it. Yeah. My, my executive assistant, she's like, your calendar drives me crazy. That's also why she has a job. She has all why she has a job. Definitely babysitting for sure. But, but really does that sound familiar? Yeah. Sorry. We all need babysitters. And I have, I have a great one right now. So, it's awesome. But yeah, I know it's, you have to be intentional, you have to be deliberate. Yeah. There's, you know, there's city managers out there, you know, some, some of our friends, you know, as well, where they don't get out in the community, they don't get out, you know, they kind of stay, you know, in their, in their office kind of navigating, again, the day in and day out, it's, it's a lot. Yeah. And so big on a power end of your team, put the right people in the right place and just let them do their jobs. Yeah. Well, and the interesting part about having that great relationship, not just with your team and the council, but with the public, is often, I think a city manager's role involves helping people understand incredibly complex things. Yes. And if they know Dalton, and you're not just the city manager, and they know you, because they've connected with you, they're more likely to sit and listen and navigate those complex things with you. Yeah. You know, a great example. So Kim Meismer, one of my assistant city managers have too. And, you know, she had told me one day, and this was within the first probably 90 days, 100 days that I've been there. She was really interested. And I was, you know, out in the community, she's been there for 17 years. It wasn't, she had brought it up along the lines of, it wasn't that I got asked, have you met my, you know, have I, have you met your boss yet, or what do you know? It's, hey, I saw your boss today. You know, and so even, you know, it's a different feel, you know, even the judge is like, how are you at everything? And it's like time management. You know, you got to, you got to balance your efforts. I can't be at everything. I know I can't be at everything. But you know, the other side of this too, and this goes back to work-life balance that I think is, is important, because it's not really work-life when you live, when you live it. It's just your life. But I'm home by five or six every night. I'm deliberate about it. Yes. Do I take phone calls? Do I check emails? You know, I constantly doing things? Yes. But I can get away from the office and we step away. And you have to find that, you know, that balance. That was probably one of the biggest struggles that I had coming out of the military was it's going to be there tomorrow and it's going to be okay. That was probably one of the biggest challenges that I had coming out. Yeah. You know, and, and recognizing that it moves on without you just fine. Correct. The machine will continue to move on. And again, when you put the right people in place, that makes it a little bit easier. Yeah. You know what's interesting is the same thing is true of cities, right? You will probably not retire as the city manager of Kervil if anything of this statistic tells us is true, right? Correct. Three to five years. Yeah. Three to five years is the average. So odds are you may not be. Now you might. Who knows? Maybe you beat those odds. However, whenever you leave, the city of Kervil will go on. Correct. What's interesting about that is, you know, I'm currently writing a book about burnout and why we continue to burn out. And so much of it is we put unreasonable expectations on ourselves. Yes. And it's so funny how many of our habits and our choices are driven by, well, I have to get this done because, and we put the weight of the city on our shoulders. The reality is, if we don't get that thing done today, if we get it done tomorrow, because it's seven o'clock at night, the city's still going to be there. And you would think that would give us more freedom to slow down a little, to be a little more intentional. But often we don't take that. Yeah, it's tough. You know, again, you know, I spent a lot of time after I got, I officially got out of the military in 2012ish. And I spent a lot of time on emotional intelligence. A lot of time, you know, basically being the change that I want to see in other people, you know, being the leader, being the husband, being the parent that I want to see in others. I spent, I mean, it was very deliberate, very painful, but very deliberate. What drove that? The need to be a better person, you know, the want to be a better person. You know, there was, it's not that I was necessarily a bad person. It's just, we have to grow, if we're not growing, we're dying to a very simplistic perspective. And yeah, I had to, had to be very deliberate about that. And of course, you know, being a parent that, that really changed things. You know, my oldest 14, he, he, you know, that was a military, you know, relationship and he lived with his mom for a long time. And then of course, had the twins where then I kind of got sucked into it, you know, on a day-to-day basis. And so there's a lot of stuff that I had to learn and my twins are complete opposites. One of them, they're six. One of them I can go toe to toe with and I have to back down. And because you're not going to win that fight because I'm not going to win that fight. And, and you know, it's, you know, it's like taking on the challenges of the world and it's like, I'm getting defeated by a six-year-old. And you know what? That's okay. And that's okay. So yeah, so it's, it's interesting, you know, kind of what we learned, a lot of reading, you know, a lot of, you know, professional development and self-development and really a lot of just, in a lot of leadership discussions, I was kind of, you know, talk about, you got to ask yourself the hard question. You got to accept that often, often difficult answer. And then you actually have to take some sort of action, which is probably going to be unsettling and suck. And you have to do those. And most people, I don't think, in my opinion, don't get past the first question. They answer the question, they don't like it, and then they move on. And then they move on. And they don't try to do it because it's easier to avoid. And so yeah, so for me, you know, kind of, we'll call it, you know, quote-unquote, carrying the weight of the world, you know, the city on your shoulders. I don't view it that way. Now, for me, it's a lifestyle. You know, it's, you have to, you have to want to do it. And, you know, yes, there's, of course, stressors involved. But, you know, if you show up, you know, have integrity, you know, be unbiased, I always, you know, be objective on it, you know, don't bring your subjectivity to the table. It's amazing what you can get away without stress. And so, you know, as we kind of navigate it, you know, you always hear, well, the city manager is going to come in and make their mark on it. I'm going to have a mark. We all do. But one of my big marks is how do we make it unchangeable? How do we create a system that somebody else is going to want to come in that's easy, that works, you know, that is, you know, that they're not going to want to change because it's efficient. Yeah. And yes, there's some things that I do now that I'm like, yeah, I wish I would have done it this way. But that's not for the betterment of the organization. That's not for the longevity of the organization. Yeah. You know, we don't want somebody to come in and just have to turn it on its head because, you know, Dalton came in and put his mark on it. Yeah. He made it uniquely him where it couldn't run without him. Yes. And we don't want to do that. Yes. And you say, unchangeable, what I hear is sustainable. Sustainable. Like you really want to build something that lives far beyond you, that it is better than where you found it. And it will continue to grow kind of like that human growth. Yes. The city itself will continue to get better and better and better. And that was one of our big, that was our budget theme this year was beyond tomorrow was to focus on sustainability, not just for our team, but for council, for the community. You know, we had to run a very lean budget and, you know, make some tough choices that, you know, decisions this year. And so, yeah, how do we start preparing for the future? Yeah. And again, it's, there's things that I'm like, man, I wish I could have that, you know, I'm like, you know, kid in a candy store. But I'm like, all right, it's not time yet. And while I could do it, is it the best thing for the organization? You know, the more cities we're working with, the more I'm understanding that the some of the most important work that a city manager is doing in the current era is focusing on that future sustainability. Because there's, for a lot of cities, there have been a lot of decisions made in the past that in the moment were fine, but they were not sustainable. Yeah. And now we're having to pay those bills. And now we're looking at a lot of future pain because that was not taken into account. Yep. So how do you, how are you doing with telling that story of sustainability, helping people understand and embrace it? You know, when it comes to kind of the internal messaging and working with our teams, a great example of this budget, my fire chief came to me and he's like, hey, I need six new people. I'm like, we'll cut you over time and half and you can have them. You know, and I was again, a very simplistic, you know, in the mall and argument. But but that being said, instead of just saying, no, you know, let's try to find a solution and not me just find a solution. And I'll talk about that here in a second because I've shifted my thought process on don't bring, don't bring me, you know, a problem, bring me a solution. I've changed my, my way of thinking on that. I gave him basically five objectives. And he turned around. And within a week, he had another meeting and they, the, the short of the long is they created a kind of a career path in an EMS, added a EMS lieutenant. They had EMS supervisors. We were sending paramedics to firefighters to paramedic school. And for every two that were passing, we were losing one. And so we were spending, you know, a lot of money and overtime just sending people to paramedic school that didn't really want to be there, to be honest. And so they ended up just bringing in EMT basics, kind of created a career path through that. And they cut their over, they cut their budget by two hundred and eighty thousand dollars with only a forty thousand dollar net increase a year. Wow. And so we were, we plan on actually telling that story. We were putting together information on what that looks like because public safety is one of your most challenging ones. Yes. And just like, you know, just like police, I'm working on now saying, think outside the box. We can't just keep throwing money at the, you know, the problem, because eventually I'm going to tell you no, and then that brings a whole another set of morale issues. So for me, it's about throwing the box away. Yeah. And going back to kind of the solutions, not problems thing. What I kind of learned is by, by putting out there saying, bring me a solution, you know, not a problem, you kind of create this, this vacuum where if they don't have a solution and they can't think of something, they're never going to come to you. Yeah. So then it just dies. Yeah. So now I've shifted that mindset of, bring me ideas so we can come up with a solution, don't bring me a problem. Yeah. So at least we can bring ideas to the table, though, no matter what, we'll see what sticks, and we can brainstorm our way through it, and then come up with a solution. And then it's collaborative, right? And then it's collaborative. And I think that's the interesting piece of that is one of the things I've learned through doing this show is when we ask the question, what's one thing you wish people understood? A common theme in the answers is we wish people understood how complex the problems were when they land on a city manager's desk, even an ACM's desk. By the time they get there, they've gone through a lot of really smart people. So part of the role of the city manager of the ACM is to collaborate and help find those solutions. That is one of the key things you'll do. Exactly. And so I think that collaboration idea of, we're going to figure it out, and it's going to look wildly different than we thought. Because you're right, we can't just keep like every department I know is slightly understaffed. Yeah. But we can't just keep throwing bodies and money at the problem, because eventually, there's not going to be any more money. Exactly. And so we have to acknowledge that and say, how do we get creative sometimes to make this happen? Yeah, you know, and it adds a piece not just for the collaboration, but it also builds buy-in. Because if you have a solution you have buy-in, then you're more likely to, you know, integrate something or implement something a little bit more successfully. You know, a great example, when I came in, you know, came on board, you know, funny thing about org charts, right? They're like, you know, we're kind of running this high-performing team type stuff. I'm like, okay, well, let's see what works. You know, the org chart didn't make a lot of sense. So we were trying to, you know, process our way through it or think our way through it. And they're like, well, let's go to the traditional org chart and say, okay, you know, the ACMs have been here longer than I have. I've been on board for a month. If y'all think this is kind of the way to go, y'all know the directors, let's go ahead and put it out there. Yeah. And you thought I dropped a bombshell. I mean, you know, people freaked out. They're like, what does this mean? Who am I reporting to you? I'm like, guys, whoa, stop. If this is going to be this big of, you know, a battle right now, let's, let's reel it back in. Let's hold off. Yeah. And so then we started kind of navigating through, what does a high-performing team look like? What does that mean, you know, you know, in all practicality? How do we find a balance to that? Yeah. And we ended up finally, I'd say probably after about six to seven months, we finally kind of came up with the balance during budget, where, you know, we are going to have more of a traditional org chart, ACMs and directors report ACMs. But we've, we've kind of pseudo in a way shifted to where one of my ACMs is like a chief operating officer, anything project related external services, you know, working with, you know, projects, the day-to-day stuff. Yeah. And then Kim is kind of my chief administrative officer, all internal services. And so even though you are our director that's reporting, you know, administratively to an ACM through meetings and everything else, if you have an HR issue, you go to the person that's going to take care of and handle it the way you need to. Yeah. And so far we've been, I think, I think operating under that probably for about six months. Yeah. And it's going, well, we're kind of tweaking it here and there. But so far it seems to be working. Yeah. That's one of those interesting creative solutions, right? Let's collaborate on this. Let's hear all sides and co-create something together. Well, and you know, and this goes back to one of the things that I kind of wanted to implement on my own was I wanted to bring in executive directors. We have one. I wanted to bring in another layer of leadership in there. You know, while we could have done it, it wasn't probably the right time of one budget budgetary reasons. And two, I think morale reasons. We were still trying to figure some things out. Yeah. Something I still want to implement. So our kind of our senior executive team, if you will, is all the directors. Yeah. And we have a lot in there. And so sometimes it's almost a big group. It's almost too much. Yeah. And that executive director level would have kind of mitigated that some. But either way, it's still fine. One of the big pushes, though, that I told the directors is no matter what silos will be unacceptable. If we create silos, I'm not going to be happy. You know, because traditional art charts, you tend to create silos. And so that was one of my big visions was making sure that if we go the traditional route, the silos are broken. And I think our team has done a great job at, you know, continuing the collaboration. We've introduced some employee engagement methodologies and some employee engagement and recognition program. Yeah. Programs that have really helped kind of break those silos down. Yeah, I like that. How many years did you spend in the military? Almost 14 years. 14 years in the army. Was army, did infantry for about three years when I first got in, swapped over to Special Forces, Greenbury is basically. Yeah. Did that until really 2019. And I enjoyed it. It was good. I learned a lot about diplomacy. You know, you're having to operate in areas of the world that, you know, they don't want you there. And so you had to build relationships very quickly. You had to learn how to, you know, operate or be very diplomatic, you know, to a certain extent. You had to learn adaptability. You know, and then I got out and decided to go in back into public safety. So I was a firefighter paramedic for a little bit. Yeah. Realize that I wanted to do a little bit more. And those were some of the challenges that I, you know, kind of faced in leadership and, you know, hitting the glass ceiling a little bit. I was working on my degrees at this time and got into the private sector into health care for really a very small stint, kind of doing some cleanup in the health care sector side. Yeah. And I accidentally kind of got into public administration and fell into it. Yeah. Somebody had called me up. They're like, hey, you want to management analyst position? I'm like, I have no clue what this is. But sure, let's do this. Let's try a job. Let's try it and fell in love with it. Okay. Well, as you came out of the military and you kind of went on that journey of self discovery and kind of growth and driving yourself, what was some of the biggest areas you had to overcome inside yourself internally in order to be able to grow? Man, we talked about some of those, you know, some of the takeaways, never forget where you came from. You know, my hundred percent is not your hundred percent. And that one was a big one for me. And so as weird as the sounds as I kind of walk around, you know, you see this percentage bar above people's heads. And and and it's interesting though, because when you're your percentage bar is your high energy. I think that's definitely, yeah, I'm yes, I'm definitely high energy. And so one of the things that I had to realize was while other people may still have that level of energy, their hundred percent may not match my hundred percent. Yes. Does that take away from who they are? Absolutely not. Yeah. And but by being able as a leader, by being able to identify that, you can say, look, you're at your hundred percent. How do we, how do we work with you? How do we develop you? How do we make you to where you're, we can reach a new threshold of a hundred percent, not a hundred and ten percent, because that's when you hit burnout. That's when people start peaking. And so how do we, how do we increase people's bandwidth and capacity? Yeah. And so that was, um, I was kind of biopening as I kind of, you know, went through it, because I kept thinking, I mean, even even going into public safety. Yeah. I'm like, all right, I came from SF. These are their type A personalities. You know, these, no, yeah, not even close. So I'm like, okay, all right, I got to reel it back in. It turns out type A is too broad of a category. Like there's so much nuance in there. You know, yeah, it's, there's definitely, I think, been some bleed over from, you know, what they would call the traditional beta male versus alpha male. That's a whole different podcast. But, but yeah, you know, it's, it's definitely interesting. And, and, you know, having to navigate that was, was pretty tough. I'd say probably the biggest one I had to navigate was learning how to be a parent. That, that alone was tough. I mean, my oldest son, I missed the first three years of his life, you know, deploying military is easy. Military life is easy. You know, told where to go, what to do, where to eat, you know, I plan for my stuff. There's a clarity to it, right? There's a clarity. And it's also a choice. I chose to do it. Our families didn't. Not really. They sacrificed more. And so, you know, my oldest son, you know, we're kind of, you know, reeling through that of, you know, he's now a young man. Yeah. How do we, how do we work through those issues? The twins. I mean, that's a whole different story where, you know, my wife works. She's, you know, a nurse. She's a go getter. She's high energy. You know, we are very similar in a way, but our discs are actually opposite, which is kind of unique. Right. And, and so, there's a lot of stuff that I took on, you know, being a parent, you know, getting them ready for school, taking them to school. I mean, that sounds simple for some folks. But for me, that was a big deal. I had to learn a lot. I had to struggle my way through it. And now it's nothing. You know, now it's just, it's another part of being a team, you know, with, with your spouse. And so, having to learn that also helped me in the workforce and actually, you know, being a leader, having to navigate families, you know, people with, you know, kids, people with families, work is not everything. And that's okay. You know, if you're having a bad day, go home. Yeah. You know, you might miss, you know, eight hours a day, but I guarantee you, if you feel better, I'm going to get more work out of you in three hours than I would out of eight. Yes. Absolutely. And so really just being able to identify again, asking the hard questions and then taking some form of action on it. Yeah. It's interesting as you go through that growth path of discovering and taking on new things. Parenting forces us to do that, right? It forces us to learn so many different things that we would think we already knew at that point, but it reveals how much we don't know. I think that taking on leadership for the first time is very similar, isn't it? Yeah. You know, I mean, going back to the twins a little bit, you know, Rhett, he's my, my, my angry child. He's the one him and I will go toe to toe with, you know, mom will come in and be like, what's going on? And he'll be like dad started it. I mean, that is, and I'm like, no, he started it. And I mean, I mean, you're, I mean, he's, you realize you're on the other side of a fight with a six year old. Correct. You know, and I'm the six year old as well. And, you know, and of course, you know, the, the mom, you know, wife is just like, y'all are idiots. And mostly to me, not to them. You know, of course, they're precious little angels. Of course. Of course. And so, you know, it's, but, but in that, in that pursuit of it, I realized that I had a gap. I realized something was missing. And there was actually one book in particular, and I'm going to butcher it, but it was basically asking questions. So kids will listen and listening. So kids will ask questions. There's something along those lines and phenomenal, phenomenal book. And that actually helped me become the Rhett whisper, where I was the only one that could actually calm him down. We'll still go to toe toe to toe. But that's because by that's by choice. You know, that's like, no, no, I'm, I'm going after, I'm going after up against the six year old real quick. It's amazing how much of leadership, because as I'm thinking about your story there, right, you've got a six year old who's acting a certain way. And if you're not in a good place, you descend down to the level of a six year old. And now it's two six year olds fighting, not an adult in a six year old. And it's funny, often in leadership, you'll have a situation where people get in that exact same mode. Well, this person wronged me. So now we've got to go do something to them. And they want you as the leader to kind of come down to that level and be like, yeah, let's go do something. And in reality, you have to be the one going to hang on. Let's ask questions. Let's understand this. It's probably not the way you're, you're framing it, you know? Yeah. So the best way to sum that up, and I think what, what really helped me, and I'd say the military probably helped with some of this, you know, is your level of confidence, right? And so the best way that I can prove, you know, or simplify this is you have nothing to prove to anybody but yourself. And if you can go through life thinking about that, and from that context, then you will never have to challenge anybody ever again, because I'm going to be my own worst enemy. Yeah. I don't care what you do, what you brought to the table. I don't care. Everybody has some value or some flaw or something, but I can't control those, but I can control mine. And so as I, you know, as I go into these situations dealing with people with lots of money, political influence, you know, power, you know, all these people that can walk into a room and have presents, well, I do too. Yeah. And I, but I have nothing to prove to anybody but myself. Yeah. So I don't care how arrogant you are. I don't care, you know, you know, how naive you are. I don't care how smart you are. You want to be the smartest person in the room? Fine. Be the smartest person in the room. Yeah. You know, we'll, we'll, we'll prove that otherwise in other conversations. But, you know, but, but I think I think that that's, that's a lot of insecurity. And there's a, there's imposter syndrome to that we all have imposter syndrome. I have it too. You know, we all get it, but how we overcome those. And I think that was kind of a big, I must say influential factor of if you don't have to prove anything to anybody but yourself, you're going to be okay. There's a clarity to, no matter how the situation goes, I'm fine. I'm complete. This situation and the result of it does not speak to me and who I am. I am complete. I'm whole. I'm fine. There's something to that that allows you to then speak truth and be more diplomatic and understand that maybe the way to get what we're after is a little bit of a retreat so that we can go around the other side. Yeah. Often people get so locked in. I was talking to somebody one day and they're really wrestling with another person, another director. They couldn't get it to work, you know. And I said, well, can you retreat just a little? Give them what they want in this area. Yeah. And see if it changes the interaction. That idea of retreat, like I could just hear it on the phone like the gears grinding in their soul. They're like, no, I can't retreat. Yeah. Because we see it as loss. But we are playing a finite or we're playing an infinite game, right? Exactly. We're playing this game where the goal at Simon Senate talks about in his book, this idea is just to stay in the game. Yep. It's not. There's no win or lose ultimately. And that's where your team comes into play too. You know, our our leadership team or our executive leadership team, which is Kim, Michael, and our city attorney Mike, we are very different personalities. Yes, you are. And that's good. You know, I met you and Kim at season, they are wildly different. We are completely different. You know, she provides no structure and balance and clarity. Yeah. And that's how she is. Michael Horness is kind of him and I are I'd say, you know, very similar in a lot of ways. But when I'm bad cop, he's good cop and vice versa. You know, and it just kind of so happens to flow that way because we'll go into meetings where he is a lot more comical and collective when it comes to certain things in other areas when things get really chaotic, I'm more comical and collective. Yeah. But if if people rattle off, sir, I'm trying to think of some meetings like, you know, people will rattle off something. Well, I'm very direct. You know, sorry for my manners. I'm like, well, me too. You know, and so we can have a conversation. Can we both be direct? Can we both be direct now? A lot of people don't like the two way street of that. Correct. And you know, and unfortunately, I'm going to test that theory because I'm okay with that. Yeah. So we are very wildly different. And especially with my peer, you know, the city attorney, we have a great relationship in two completely different people, which is needed. You know, you don't need, I don't need 10 me's. One of me is plenty. That realization for leaders, it's funny, early in leadership, how we think we need more of us. No. And if we're self-aware at all, we very quickly learn, no, we're good. Correct. We want us as enough. Let's get people with wildly different talents. Exactly. You know, and that's where it really comes out for leaders is, and this is probably an area that I can still get better at is providing expectations, you know, managing expectations, you know, trying to provide that clarity. You know, what do we want? How do we want to do that? Yeah. You know, I always kind of joke around, you know, people know me, be brief, be bright, be gone. That's that that sums up my meetings. Yes. Pretty much to a T. Yeah. Be brief, be bright, be gone. Yeah. And there's more to it than that. But sure. But, you know, we'll go into, you know, meetings with vendors, you know, a director has vetted them and, you know, in all this, and they're like ready to do a presentation. I'm like, no, show me the numbers. If the director likes what you have to say and you're sitting in this, give me the brass taxes. I don't want it. Yeah. I don't need a sales pitch. Yeah. Yeah. And that throws people off sometimes, you know, can imagine that. But, but I'm like, I don't, you know, time is valuable for everybody. I don't want to waste your time if I already like your product and my director likes your product. Yes. I'm going to give you your time back. Yeah. But yes, the, the self realization and, you know, the self awareness, I think is what a lot of leaders lack. Yeah. And I think that intimidates a lot of folks too, is because if you got somebody who's in a management role or a leadership role, they have nothing to prove to anybody but themselves. They can walk into a room and have a presence. They're okay to be vulnerable and talk about our weaknesses and talk about our failures. That throws people off. People are not used to that, especially other leaders. And so when you have emerging leaders that, that are that way and their director may not be, sometimes there's conflict. I think what's interesting is you have a version of that that's not actually that. You have a version that is, I'm pretending like I have nothing to lose here. Correct. You have a version that is lacking vulnerability and that becomes tougher. You got to have authenticity. And that's, you know, being, being genuine and, you know, having authenticity, you know, it's one thing to brief the right words and to pretend to have it. It's another thing to live it. And I think that's where a lot of people, again, my opinion, just from my experiences, where people get stressed out and then the way to the world is carried on them, because they were trying to be something that they're not. And, you know, they want to be that leader that doesn't micromanage. They want to be that leader that, you know, that is there for the people that's genuine, that talks about their feelings and emotions, but then they can't. And then that, that weighs on. So sorry. It happens. Allergies are killing me right now. Pick a temperature colder hot. Pick one for four seasons and one day. I was born and raised in Texas. I know how it is. But yeah. So no, I think, I think the authenticity is what gets a lot of leaders is they, they, and especially too, you know, in this world of professional development and all the things going on and how do we become better leaders? If you write those off, you're that guy. So you at least have to pretend to be a part of that and, you know, be that, you know, the buzzword servant leader, but then most can't. And I'd be curious to see the percentage of those, you know, who couldn't do it, but I'd be willing to bet it's probably probably a pretty high number. That was a huge percent. It doesn't last. The thing is if we're, if we're showing up and pretending to be something, we're lying to people. And ultimately, if you're lying as a leader, it will come out very, very quickly. Exactly. It happens fast. It does. So you chose public service when you went into the military. You were now in a career of public service. If you had to go back and talk to somebody that was thinking of getting into public service, somebody that was younger and looking at it for a career, what would you tell them? Do it sooner. I wish I knew then what I know now. I probably would have gotten into public administration a lot sooner. I probably went to, probably went to delayed it so much. I just didn't know. And so I kind of took a really roundabout. I mean, my bachelor's is in business administration and law and my master's is in health care quality and organizational development. And now you're a city manager. And now I'm a city manager. So what's the advantage of starting sooner? Well, I think there's, there's pose and cons. I'm a contrarian by nature. Present. Notice that. Yeah. No, not at all. Not at all. The advantage of it is just like the military, you get to grow up in it. I've already had a career. Yeah. I did 14 years. Yeah. And so I'm able to bring some leadership to the table that you would otherwise learn as kind of a linear path. And so by having a linear career path into it, there's a lot of advantages to that. You get to start small, you get to work your way up, you get to have diversity throughout the, throughout an organization. There's a lot of value to that. The other side is, and I realized it pretty quick, the same, the same sentence that I was excited, I was also defeated. Because I'm like, Oh my God, there could be morticians that are city managers. I'm like, Oh my God. So the pool just got very big. You know, and so what separates you from other city managers? Because anybody could be a city manager. You know, it's leadership. There's in smaller of the city, you go the more day to day, you know, you deal with, but anybody could be a city manager, whether you're a linear path or whether you're nonlinear path. And so for me, it's, I wish I would have had in my mind, Hey, I want to be a city manager one day sooner. So that way, I could be very targeted on my, you know, my skills, my certifications, my degrees. That is one of the neat things about it, though, is there is this almost infinite amount of paths to a city manager's office, right? I've known city managers that started in public works. I've known ones that were police officers, known ones that came through engineering, like there's all these different paths to get there. And it's, I'm trying to think if I've known a parks director that became a city manager, that would be a fun place to work for would be my guess. But I really love that diversity of, there is no one path. No, there's not one path. And you know, and again, I took a very non-linear path, where I do think that there's more advantages to the nonlinear path is you get exposure outside of government. Yeah. You know, one of the big, I'm not going to say challenges, but opportunities that we have with our directors, some that have been there for 20, you know, plus years, is starting to think like an entrepreneur. Yeah. Run your business like you would run a business. Let's put a financial model together together. Hey, well, we want to do all these projects. Well, let's go and issue some debt if we can. You know, let's show the progress. Let's show the losses for the year. Let's show the benefit. Let's run it like a business. And so we're in the process of kind of creating some internal classes on entrepreneurship. How to do that. How to run a business. Because it's a mindset as much as anything. It is. And you know, when we, when you grow up in government or in any industry, that's what you know. Yeah. And until you start kind of seeing the challenges of things on the outside, whether that's running your own business, you know, seeing diversity of industry, you really get an appreciation of when you get in there, like, okay, there's its own set of challenges, but you're able to kind of take from a lot of different experiences, you know, across. It's my turn to be a little bit contrarian. The, the, I think in the private sector, you do encounter a lot of people who are entrepreneurial, right? They've learned that, but then there's still a lot of people that are very much like your average public servant that just wants a clear path. We always do it the same way. We never change their, I think it's a mixture and I've done it so much work as an entrepreneur and with entrepreneurs. There's something unique about that mindset that I think says anything is possible. Yeah. And that's the thing. If we can get our directors throughout a city structure believing anything is possible, that's where the creativity starts to really generate, right? It gets exciting. I think entrepreneurship is, is unique and it is so so very valuable. And I agree, it can be taught. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I agree. And, and you know, and I think, you know, when you start looking at cities, I think those, the cities, larger small, the more collaboration there is throughout all stakeholders, I think the better off it is, you know, walking around, you know, the city and, and people knowing who you are, not just knowing who you are, but they know, like, hey, let's have a conversation, you know, you know, getting out and talking, you know, about water, talking about some of the challenging issues. You know, I always joke around, you know, I'm going to set up the, the city manager punching bag. You know, we want to have those conversations. Yeah. You know, and, and our community knows, I don't care what group institution doesn't matter. If you want me to come and talk, talk to you, I'll come and talk. And I don't go with prepared speeches. I don't go with prepared items. I don't even go typically with notes. Yeah. Because I either know or I don't know. And if I don't know, I'm going to follow up and we're going to get that information. But I love going in to just open town halls and letting people ask the questions because what's the best way to get a pulse on the city? Ask the hard questions. Yeah. And, you know, there's, there's some value to standing up there and being like, I don't know. Yeah. And we'll, we'll figure it out or, but, you know, I've, I've learned more, you know, more talking with our community, you know, stakeholders and community members. You know, again, like I said, they appreciate the, the candidness. They appreciate the opportunity. You know, they haven't had that before. People actually like the vulnerability of someone, a leader, especially saying, I don't know, but we can figure it out. Exactly. And again, that comes from that place of completeness. If I'm not trying to prove that I'm okay, that I'm enough by having all the answers, I'm okay saying, yeah, I don't know. Let's go figure it out together. Yeah. You know, and I, I do want to, you know, lead with this too, because, you know, one of the, I'd say the other learning points that I, that I saw coming out of the military, you see people successful. Yeah. And that weighs people down because you're like, man, when is it my turn, you know, you know, how do they do it? You know, they're wildly successful. They've done this, but they failed nine out of 10 times. They probably failed. And so I failed. I failed numerous times. I've hit rock bottom numerous times. You know, you know, I've struggled in life and parenting and relationships and, you know, in the job and the career. That's okay. Yeah. You learn, you learn from that. And so I always tell people, as we're sitting up here, you know, talking about the success is talking about all the stuff, you're going to fail. And that's perfectly okay. Learn from those failures. Yeah. I mean, when I talk with education, which I'm surprised they still let me talk with education, but, you know, I barely graduated high school. Yeah. And so I love talking to CTC programs or technical programs. You know, I love mentoring, you know, some, you know, I'd say troubled youth because like, dude, I was one. I was you. You and I share the barely graduating high school club. I'm the vice president. Yeah. It's like, it's like, you know, hey, I was you, you know, put your head out of your, you know, your butt and let's figure this out because you can still be successful as long as you don't make, you know, you know, permanently damaging, you know, choices, you still have a path to success. Yeah. You know, and that, and you got to take it, you're going to fail along the way and that's okay. I like that. So speaking of the idea of asking the hard questions, what are things that cities need to completely rethink? What are the hard questions that need to be asked in order to create a sustainable future for their teams, where their people can genuinely thrive? Man, I almost want to complicate this. It's, it's a multifaceted question. And so kind of breaking it down into two parts. Yeah. You know, we kind of talked about that a little bit earlier. You have from the city manager down. So all your team, this, you know, the staff, those that provide the services, and then you have city council, city manager, city council, and then the community. And I think if we break those down into two separate components, now again, you still have to answer the city council. They set policy directions at the budget and you have to operate within that. But if you have a good leader that can navigate and say, all right, we're going to build a sustainability within our teams. And we're going to predict and, you know, and anticipate some of this, you know, some of the future, you know, political challenges and landscape. Cool. We might have a bad couple of years. That's life. Get on board, you know, we're going to figure it out. Yeah. And life goes on. But I think on the other side of the coin is there's there needs to be a lot more community involvement. You know, if you want parks, if you want amenities that cost money, that you're going to have to potentially raise taxes on, you know, or take bonds out, you know, if you want to do these, I'm going to say mildly progressive things, you know, you know, to get kids out to get families out to get them outdoors, there's a cost to do in that. Yeah. And so education is huge because those who vote typically aren't the ones that want the walking trails that want the parks that want the systems. And so there's there's a huge misinformation campaign that goes around in every city to a certain extent, especially when things start when you start issuing bonds, when you start issuing debt, you know, I got to understand how it works, do they? They don't. They don't have a clue. And, you know, like our park system, you know, we have a thousand acres of parkland, you know, we have a, you know, a huge park staff. But guess what? It's a loss leader, you know, doesn't necessarily make money. And it's a, it's an amenity, multiple amenities that we provide to our community, but people will choose to move there because you have nice parks. Correct. They will choose, but then, but then when they, when they say, well, I don't want to raise taxes, I want to fix my roads. What's the first department that typically goes is parks. Yeah, because you can only cut costs in areas that are caught, you know, that are, that are expense heavy. I can't add more revenue. I can't, I can't create blood from a turnip. Yeah. You know, and so navigating all of this stuff and the sustainable change is important, both culturally and, you know, monetarily. You know, this year, for example, we, we only increased our budget about 4.7% across the whole city. 142 million dollar budget. Most of that was salaries and staff. Our departments are running very lean this year, very lean, but we were able to add about three million dollars into sustainability, fix that. So replacement, you know, general facilities fund, things that hadn't been done before. You know, we slowly started restricting little things, and this is where the cleanup side really comes into play. Yeah. Great example. You know, we were charging our credit card merchant fees. We were, it was, we were subsidizing it, basically, to the tune of a quarter million dollars a year across the whole city. You know, and yes, is it a tough decision to have to go and say, hey, guys, sorry, we're going to add 3% onto your credit card bill. Yeah. So, you know, so sorry, you know, but that's okay, because in the new cycle past, we were able to, you know, cut some costs, unnecessary, you know, costs there, but we had to make a tough decision on that. And ultimately, this is where council comes in. Council ultimately had to make that tough decision. Yes. The big difference between the public and private sector is, as a CEO, I still have somebody that I have to answer to, more so than a board of directors, because they set the policy in the budget. I can only bring them what I call the good, the bad and the ugly. And I think that's what's very different is, I don't just bring them an idea. I have to bring them, all right, here's the good, here's the bad, and here's the catastrophic. And it's, we recommend this, but it's up to council to ultimately make those tough decisions. Yeah. And I think cities set themselves back a little bit as the political landscape changes, but by breaking it up into two prongs, and if you start preparing for some of those political challenges, withstand the change or keep it sustainable, then it doesn't matter what city manager comes in, because they're going to be able to withstand or, you know, be sustainable through those operations. And that's ultimately the hard work of a city manager is your, your staff and your team, you're trying to build an engine that is going to run efficiently and sustainably, no matter what, no matter who's on council, no matter who's in the city manager seat, this engine is built to run and that's where it can withstand the hard years. It is. And that's why not putting, you know, not overly putting our unique leadership onto it is important because a new city manager is going to come in and be like, why did the city manager do that? And they're still going to do that. We all, we all do. But if you do things that are so far outside of, you know, of the box, then if you build an engine that literally only Dalton can run, you've not set the city up well. Exactly. And then every three to five years, it's having to push the reset button. And again, when you look at some of these cities, the more politically charged cities they are, the higher the turnover is, whether that's by choice or not by choice, because it goes back to you. How many people really want to deal with conflict? Does being a person who doesn't mind dealing with conflict and loves a turnaround or a rescue job, does that make you uniquely equipped for a job that has a three to five year lifespan? Yes. And one of, one of the big, let me put a disclaimer out here, Kervil was not a clean up job. It's not. It's operating at 80%. It's done, you know, very well. The little tweaks that we're doing are just, they're small processes. Yeah, let's get to 85 to 90. Yeah, we can slowly increment up, but we're able to operate on a very high, you know, high low. That's fair. And so that, so that's been great. But yes, I think having, you know, dealt with very politically charged, you know, areas are dealing with cleanup, I think it does make you, you know, uniquely equipped to be able to tackle it because it's not that bad. Yeah. Like guys, it's going to be fine, which is really interesting because I never encountered this in city management before city management, where you can be doing an incredible job. One election happens and you lose your job the next day. Yeah, they just don't like you. They don't like you or they want something different because again, you're not their person. And so I think it's really interesting that that is the reality. And often you look up in six months, that city manager has a job in a bigger city or they have a better job. And it happens all the time. And that's so unique. And in reality, when you look at the private sector, you know, and a board of director hires, you know, a CEO, but they're hiring a CEO to really run the job. CEOs are typically going to replace the C suite. Yeah. So the only difference is the city councils, you know, are putting the personalities that they have in place. So that's why, you know, equipping the, you know, assistant city managers, you know, equipping the executive leadership team to be able to withstand that change and be able to accommodate, you know, those changes, you know, being able to plug those folks in have, you know, have some succession planning in place that that should or when a change happens. It's okay. I like that. You know, and it doesn't move on. And by keeping it objectively simple, that's simplicity is the hard part, right? Because, you know, yes, there's things that I want to do. And sometimes you just got to suck it up and be like, man, that's not what's best for the organization. I like that. Last question. And I didn't, in any way, prepare you for this one. These are the best ones. This is the best one off the cuff. You got this. If you just finished writing a book about your life story up to this point, who would you dedicate that book to? Definitely have to be to my family, for sure. Again, I would not be anywhere that I am today without my wife and kids. Period hands down. I like that. There's a clarity. I've been thinking about that question and there's a clarity to it that really shows us what's the most important. Yeah. And then what I've been trying to do is look at how I spend my life versus how I would answer that question. And the two don't always line up. No, they don't. And that's usually a sign I need to work on something. Yeah. No, you know, one question I always ask in interviews, again, because you can't make it personal. You got to keep it objective. Do you love to win or hate to lose? You know, there's no necessarily wrong answer, but you can really kind of very quickly get a, you know, get an idea of where people mindset is. Because for those that talk about failure or hesitate to answer the question, I can probably assume that they failed. And every now and then you'll get somebody that'll be like, I love to win. You're like, I'm not going to hire you. You need some life experience for us. Failure really helps us see the light to a certain extent. That's part of that entrepreneurial spirit too. Most entrepreneurs are not afraid to fail, like true entrepreneurs, not the ones who say they are, but then the first time they fail, they quit. Yeah. I'm talking about the ones who have failed. I have so many failures under my belt. Yeah. And yet I get up every day and I love doing this. And I don't think, I think at this point, I'm unemployable after 20 years of this. But ultimately it is, I love the ability to get knocked down and get back up. I love the getting back up. That's what I'm after right there. You know, that's something I've talked about, you know, you and I briefly talked before, you know, looking at a, you know, I'm writing a book right now. And I always joke around every day is a Monday. Yeah. You know, and it doesn't mean that it's a wildly bad day. It just means that, hey, you know what, you're going to have bad days. It's okay. Embrace the bad day, think through it, work through it, you know, eat a gallon of ice cream if you need to, and then get back up and move on. Yeah. But there's other days where there's, you know, you have a Monday, I'm like, man, I wish I had another hour or two because I can get so much work done. Yes. And so it's how we, how we reframe our, our way of thinking. I like that. I like it a lot. Dalton, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, brother. No, I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Thank you for joining us for leading Thriving Cities. If you'd like to find out more about what we do at Forward Partners, you can find us at www.forwardpartners.net. We love partnering with cities to learn how to develop healthy leaders and thriving teams. We do that through a variety of means from leadership coaching to online courses to facilitating retreats. If you ever need anything, please feel free to reach out. You can also find us online with all the different socials, Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. We are putting out content all the time and you can find it at Forward Partner. [MUSIC]
