The Lawyer Stories Podcast
Ep 189 | Cynthia Sandoval & Matt D'Abusco | Elite Litigation Training Trains New Lawyers to be Confident Litigators
The Lawyer Stories Podcast Episode 189 features Cynthia Sandoval & Matt D’Abusco, Co-Founders of Elite Litigation Training (“ELT”), located in Newport Beach, California. We discuss why both Cynthia and Matt became attorneys and why they launched Elite Litigation Training together. ELT trains new lawyers to be confident litigators. We discuss the sometimes difficult transition from law school to law firm and how ELT provides live and on-demand training to understand the litigation process and work more efficiently. Lawyer Stories enjoys working with ELT and their courses are accessible at https://www.elitelitigationtraining.com/ - our discount code is LawyerStories
You are listening to the Lawyer Stories podcast with host Benny Gold. Lawyer Stories was founded in July 2017 on Instagram and is an expanding global network of lawyers and law students sharing their personal journeys to the noble profession of the practice of law. Join us on this podcast as we dig deeper into these stories and hear from lawyers and law students from around the world in all areas of belief and profession. Here at Lawyer Stories we believe that every lawyer has a story. What's yours? Welcome to the Lawyer Stories podcast with Benny Gold. Today we welcome in Cynthia Somdevall and Matt Debusco. Next Matt and Cynthia are with Ares Law Group in Newport Beach, California and are both co-founders of elite litigation training. How are you both doing today? Even all right. It's great to be here. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Thank you. So Ares, did I say that right? Ares? Yeah. I got it right. I shouldn't have second guessed myself. Okay. Well, hey. It's great to have you guys here. It's really half of Lawyer Stories and all of our staff, which we just talked about. I want to thank you guys for your support. Put your videos out there with us. I know people have seen the videos. You're doing some cool stuff. I really enjoy watching them. You want to help young lawyers. We're going to talk about it. So we'll kind of go one at a time here. Just get a little back story since it is Lawyer Stories. So Cynthia, let's start with you. Tell us, Californian. I grew up in L.A. County. Nice. Yeah. So I've lived here my whole life. I've moved around the state a bit. I was up in the Bay Area for a while and then came back to Southern California. Wow. Oh, wait. Yeah. It's been a minute. Wow. Okay. So when did you decide what's your back story about when you decided to become an attorney? It's funny that you should ask that, Benny. I grew up in a family of modest means. I grew up in a barrio in L.A. And my neighbors were not professionals. My neighbors were gardeners. My neighbors were recent immigrants. My neighbors rented out their garages and sheds to immigrants. So that was kind of where I grew up. And I went to school in a lot of environments where I was around people that didn't live in that environment. And I was very conscious of the fact that even though I didn't feel like I needed anything, I had a wonderful family, wonderful community. I was very aware of the fact that I didn't have what other classmates had. And my parents, my dad never finished high school. And so they struggled, but they did well for themselves and I'm very proud of them. But I never wanted to worry about money because I've grown up worrying about money. Sure. Yeah. So I thought, well, I could be a doctor or a lawyer. I really didn't know. And I would faint, usually when I would get a shot or my blood, I think the doctor thing is out. That's out. Yeah. So lawyer it was. And that's how I decided to be a lawyer. I don't know if that was a matter of deciding, but it's been a good run. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And you have tremendous experience. I've seen that you've represented plaintiff's side, defendant's side, been in-house counsel. And I think it really helps probably with the mediation practice that you have. How would you say that that helps in your practice? I think having the diversity of experience certainly helps in the mediation practice because I've been in every seat in the mediation room, right? Sure. I've been a mediator. I've been plaintiff's counsel, defendant's counsel. I've been the client at in-house counsel. So I find that it enables me to really speak to the participants in the process candidly and honestly and openly about what I see, what questions I have, what I think might be a challenge going forward, or just about what are we really trying to accomplish here. Let's roll up our sleeves and get some work done. And I think I can appreciate being, having been in-house counsel, the dynamics of business relationship that they have with their business partners, and also the push and pull of employers wanting to be in compliance, but also wanting to stay competitive in the friction that exists there. Yeah. And also with plaintiffs, with employees, I can appreciate that when someone finds their way or has found their way to my office or our office as a plaintiff in the past, I can appreciate what a significant impact that event that pushed them to reach out to us has had on their life. So I think I can empathize a bit more with the plaintiffs. Yeah. For sure. Mediation's such an interesting thing. It is. So that's really great that you're using that as an approach. So Matt, tell us about yourself, Californian, you know, when you just go, "I'm also a native Californian. I have lived in Southern California my entire life on a school in Southern California, lived in Southern California. I've practiced in Southern California, although, you know, we've had cases that have spanned the borders of the state as well, but I am a native, I am here in Orange County, California. Okay. So like, when did you decide law school was for you? That is a great question. I'm going to have to speculate a little bit as we knew that we were going to come on this podcast. I really thought about it. I have this memory of just being somewhere in high school and being like, "I'm going to be a lawyer." And I just come that path and I went straight through it. I have to say, I think maybe that seed was planted, you know, in Los Angeles, across the country, the OJ Simpson trial was a really big thing. Yeah. That's interesting. I was actually going to ask Cynthia, like, when she was talking about, you know, LA and like all that. Go ahead, Matthew. I didn't mean to cut you out. I was a big thing. I remember where exactly where I was when the Bronco chase happened and then every night at home, we would have, you know, the CNN recap show of the trial for that day. And I think at that time, that was the time when I was starting to go to high school. I'm happy because I was married when I was watching the OJ Simpson scenario. I was going to high school. Oh, okay. Yeah. I was just talking about lawyers and legal strategy and things like that. And at that point, it seemed like a lawyer tries cases and they're in court and that's so interesting. Right. And so I see you got planted there. I don't know if that was ultimately what got me to there, but this was planted. And I think that that seemed to me to be a very interesting career to go into. And so, yeah, for sure, and then I just went straight forward on it and yeah. And by the way, you know, we did have our guy Alan Hert Dershowitz on the show a few years ago. We had him video and we also had Marsha Clark on the audio. So that was kind of a thrill. You know, I was actually thinking like after that, like, okay, well, maybe actually a lot of this demographic is not does not know maybe who they are as much as like maybe you do. You know what I mean? Yeah. It was it was pretty cool. So that's yeah. OJ, that for sure. I mean, that's I can remember the case for sure. Yep. Being in front of the box TV in the later, you know, the seven o'clock this eight o'clock. I don't know what it was. And it was an hour long where all they did was talk about the Simpson trial and we did be looking in Southern California. It felt close. Yeah. You know, we were I didn't live particularly close there. It was probably about 50 miles away, but it did feel yeah, sort of, yeah, that happened. And that's like when they had you were sitting in front of your TV and that was when they had like one remote, not like two or three. Yes. And now I can't even now I struggle to turn it on. Okay. Yeah. Which is the run. You could go up and touch the TV and it would turn the volume up in the channel. That's right. That's right. Really. So. So, all right, I want to talk about elite litigation training, ELT, we'll call it, but in a minute, because first I just want to talk about just one question, either of you can answer it. Aries law firm, just tell us what you do there just so we get that out there. Yeah. So Aries law group is a firm well, let's take a step back. So Cynthia and I actually met one another at a nationwide employment defense firm. Okay. That was a question. That was my next question. So go ahead. Yeah. I'm going to talk about employment defense attorneys. And that is something that we had done throughout our careers. And then I left that firm where Cynthia was actually my boss. I interviewed Matt. I remember. She interviewed me. She was my boss. He was like my go to associate on my team. The one that I could give an assignment to and know this will be handled. It won't need a huge rewrite. You know, the depot will be done well, you know, draft the MSJ, it's all good. And it got a little weird then because pressure. All right. He had found out that I intended to leave before I had the opportunity to tell her, which was by not by my own doing. And one day she called me into her office and she just said, well, it was funny because Matt was telling me about how he was wrapped kind of tidying up my cases and everything that he was doing. And I knew I'm like, this guy is so great. Like I know he's getting ready to walk out the door and he's just trying to make sure everything is lined up for me when he leaves. Oh, nice. You know, we had a good working relationship and I just looked at him and I thought, I can't lie to this guy. And I said, I know what you're doing and I appreciate it. Thank you. And he just went. Why is that? What do you mean? What do you mean? So we actually met at that firm. I went off and I started Aries Law Group and Aries Law Group represents plaintiffs and employment disputes. And the entire other side, no matter, you know, some people call it the dark side, some people call it the good side, just depends who you are. And I stayed in contact with Cynthia and I said, when you're ready, you have a home here. And it took me two years, it was two, about two years. And then Cynthia came to Aries Law Group and for the past seven years now, we've been working together over here as well. And we represent plaintiff and employment disputes and we help people and nobody ever calls us then when things go well. Right. Nobody ever calls us with good news. And it's an entirely different approach in practice, really, because when you're on the defense side, you know, a lot of times it's numbers and there's a lot of people and it's more business. And on this side, it's very personal. Yeah. And you asked a question before to Cynthia. And I think one thing that Cynthia intermediation practice is able to do and me as well is you can really relate to those people because we've been with them. We've spent a lot of time with these people in our plaintiff cases so that when we do go into the mediation area, we can have a better understanding of what we're dealing with and who we're talking to. And we've really been able to work with some great people as defense attorneys that went to be plaintiff's attorneys, where we have been extremely critical and selective about the cases that we take because we never really stopped from the mindset of being a defense attorney. Right. So, you know, when we look at the defense and we don't think of it like a plaintiff's attorney, we look at it and be like, well, what, how would we attack this case? And is there a way for us to move forward in this case that makes sense? And so we really were, what was more than two hats, but the experience has been different. It's been great. And, you know, Ari's law group has been an opportunity for us to impact people's lives in a positive way. And that's something that is really nice to do, I think, isn't it? Yeah. What was the name of the firm? I didn't. Okay. Somebody else came up with the idea. I got you. That's my last name is a little complicated to spell. Okay. It seemed like asking somebody to spell the bus go and this would that didn't, that didn't sound like SEO. Okay. And so what about that? And it's, it stands for a warrior, basically. And so we figured we were kind of social justice warriors and it was at the front of the keyboard or the, the, probably the alphabet there. And you don't have to learn how to spell the bus go with or without the apostrophe, which came down to the other column. So it seems like maybe right after a few months after you launched, or you had Ari's law group, and then in, in like March, you launched elite litigation training. No. No, it was a little, it was a little later. So we started, Cynthia joined me in September of 2017 and we kind of got this idea for elite litigation training in the fall of 2019. Okay. And we were working on it and we were getting ready to launch and we were going to launch at the end of March, 2020. Okay. I didn't work out. Right. March, 2020. Right. Well, virtual. That didn't work out for us. We were going to have an in-person training. Yeah. It was going to be wonderful. Yeah, well, that kind of put the brakes on things and we sort of just had to figure out how to balance the law firm and the new world and how things were working. And so we deeply believe in what we're doing at elite litigation training, and so we never really forgot about it, but we had to figure out how it was going to now shape in this new environment. Yeah. It was going to look like how are we going to be able to deliver what we felt like was really such important content and resources for new attorneys, how are we going to deliver that now? Yeah. So it took us a while to get it out. It took us a while. It took us a while. Just a couple of years, honestly, maybe we wish it would have been a little quicker, but it took us a couple of years and now, you know, we're really often putting some good content that we're very proud about there and that we can really offer new lawyers. Yeah. Yeah. No, the content looks great. So first of all, just go back and tell us what elite litigation training is and why you decided to launch it. So elite litigation training is kind of the training that we wish we had had when we were new attorneys starting out. And it's funny because Matt came up with the idea of how is it that when you get out of law school and then you transition into practicing law, you really overwhelmed because you don't know how to practice law. You know about jurisdiction, you know about what the FRCP says, you know about evidence and objections and all of this, but you don't know what to do day to day or how to move a case forward. And I think that was something that really was kind of the impetus for our discussion of, boy, wouldn't it be nice if there was a training that associates could take that would really help them to accelerate that in their career and put them in a place where they could contribute either to a firm or to their own practice faster and have more confidence and not have that feeling of being so overwhelmed because we've both been there. Oh, absolutely. And you know, the idea wasn't exactly novel to me. I'd like to think that I had this big epiphany, but I was driving around one day and I remember when I was first year associate, I was at a firm and they sent me to this five day training it was called the nuts and bolts of civil litigation at a bar association here and the partner that I worked for at the time said, you're going to go to this and you're going to come back and you're going to know how to litigate cases because, like Cynthia said, I don't think it's a big secret law school doesn't teach you how to be a civil litigator. No. You might think it does, but then when we show up at that firm or office of first day, it's a big shocker. So I did that course then and for me had a bunch of money for me to go there and I came back with no new skills at all. Really? Why do you think that? It was all about theory in theory, what we show is that it was very disappointing because I was excited about it. I was I was I was ready to really be a lawyer after all this schooling. I wanted to go and I wanted to be ready to be a trial lawyer and it was, you know, in theory we should we should tell people these things or do these things and they did not teach any practical skills. They did not teach any practical technical skills and that's what we really focus on. Our trainings are we don't we talk about the law, but we we're not here to teach you the law. We teach technical skills. We teach practical skills and we teach you skills on how you can take one of our courses. For example, let's say a preparing motion for summary judgment. You can take our course, which we try to keep our courses to an hour, but I think you probably won't notice over the course of this podcast Cynthia and I, we like to talk. No. We end up talking a little bit more, but our course for motion for summary judgment because it's such a big topic. It's about an hour and 20 minutes. You can take that course and you can really feel that you can go back and do the work. I remember when I was maybe a second year, I was assigned a motion for summary judgment and I was at that office then for four weekends, Saturday and Sunday, I built about 130 hours to this and I turned it in and it didn't go so well. And I lost 130 hours of time that I had spent preparing a motion that I had no guidance on. So Cynthia will say it's hard sometimes for, depending on the size of your firm and what structure you have, you don't always get that training that you hope that you have because partners are so busy with other responsibilities. And so if I, like Cynthia said, we created this motions for summary judgment training with the idea that, well, if we would have taken this, I could have maybe avoided that. I could have built those 130 hours and turned in a product that people would have been like, wow, that's, that's good work. And so I went to that training and I came back and I learned nothing and then over the course of the next 10 years, I learned how to be a litigator by, you know, bumps in the road and making mistakes and being horrified. So did that actually happen? Like when you came back, like the partner gave you an assignment and you're like, I learned this thing, you know, like, they don't, they said, no, no, there was no follow-up actually like, hey, what did you learn? I think the expectation was that I learned a lot and I, you know, I, yeah, I, I wish I had something out of law school, I mean, I, I think we might have graduated around the same time. I, I'm looking at like LinkedIn and stuff, but, um, and I, you know, I wish I had because I, I didn't have like great experiences when I worked at small firms and I, I was, you know, I think either you need like a, a really good mentor, you know, somebody who's going to let you mess up like two, three times, if that's really what you need to do, some people can just go off by themselves and do it and they have no fear. I mean, we see that all the time. Young entrepreneurs just like doing their law firm, going into a personal injury. What's that? A hang in the shingle, right? But some people who are like a little more okay, I need to take it slow, like they need either a mentor that's going to like be slow with them and, and pay them to or have, you know, or they need videos and guidance like what you're providing here at ELT. So this is definitely something that I personally, if I was, you know, coming out of law school and I want him to go that route to a law firm that I would definitely be looking into. Yeah, we really think that every attorney deserves a really simple way to accelerate their legal career and, you know, so many of us sacrifice opportunities and career growth to just that trial and error learning and it doesn't have to be that way. And we really are mindful in every course that we put out, to try to provide an opportunity for people to take jumps forward by just taking an hours class or our bootcamp is two days and we really, our bootcamp is our signature course. And that takes you from when a client walks in the door all the way through judgment collection. From both the perspective of the plaintiff and the defendant, it's a really comprehensive course that teaches you everything and we think of litigation as a puzzle, right, Zendia and every procedure, every project, everything that you do is a piece of that puzzle, but a lot of times as a newer attorney, you don't know how that piece is going to fit into the puzzle. And I think that was kind of where I came at when we were talking about the development of ELT and what we wanted it to be, having been a partner at a nationwide firm, you know, I was in the room when we were deciding who we were going to hire and what we were advertising for. And it was no secret with my partners that I did not like to hire associates right out of law school because it really meant that I was then going to have to commit a lot of non-billtime of my time to help train the associate like, okay, I need you to draft discovery on this case. Here's what I need you to think about and we're going to do wrongs and we're going to do RFA's and we want to get RFP's and let's talk about the timing of that. And it really is a drain on partners when you're looking at not only do I still have to litigate, but then I have client relationship I need to maintain. I've got admin duties. I've got to be developing. So I wanted laterals who could just, you know, plug and play and you know how to do this stuff. I can give you some general directions and you'll be able to run with it. And I think I probably missed out on some really stellar associates because of that, but it's just the luxury of time that unfortunately firms, partners usually don't have. So from my perspective, ELT not only filled the need of new attorneys who can have this big picture, if you will, of this is the whole process, but also, you know, large firms might have their own internal training, but if you're a small, medium-sized firm, you might not have those resources. So ELT is really the partner that you need to provide the training to your associates so that you don't have to sacrifice and develop a training program and then get out there and train associates, let us do it for you. And so that's kind of where we really thought about this is a good resource for both. And so you're a professor too, like did you work at a college as well or no? No, she could have been, she thought that, I don't know why I thought that, okay, no, she could have really good. When I was at the firm, I was the co-chair of the firm training practice, so I did do a lot of speaking and I did do a lot of training development, which was kind of a nice thing to, a nice resource and experience to have as we developed ELT as I had done an extensive amount of training. I like teaching. She would be the dean. She would be the dean. She would be the dean. That's awesome. She'd be the dean. So, do any young attorneys who take this or new attorneys, do they have access to you guys too? Like if they have a question? It's a great question. Yeah, they do. So, for example, everybody that took our boot camp, which took place in April of this year, everybody had the opportunity to sit down with us for a half hour, an hour, and you just ask us whatever you want, you pick our brains collectively between us, we have almost the 45 to 50 years of legal experience and needs really... I'm thinking how that falls in terms of education and years there, we're just going to leave that. And we've done it all. I mean, between the two of us, we've done it all. We've done almost everything together, but also separately as well, and almost every kind of cases, trials, appeals, all the stuff that comes before that, most of the contemporary judgment, class actions, class certificate, oh, we've done it all, so they do have access to us. One thing that we are working out now, Ben, is in something we're kind of excited about, because we really did enjoy the opportunity to interact one-on-one with the people who took boot camp. Sure, sure. And so, one thing that we are starting to implement right now is, if you sign up for any of our courses, even though you might sign up for a $45 course, you have access... Number one, to that course, you have access to it for the course of an entire year. And with the course as well, you get a desktop manual. It might be five, ten pages, but that manual will give you everything you need to do what that course was about. And we intended, when we draft these, for them to literally sit at the corner of your desk and be there for you as a resource. But we're also implementing office hours, where every month we will set up a time, and you have access to us, and you can ask us about the tactics and the strategy. You can ask us about career stuff. You can ask us about navigating firms. And some of the coaching people have asked us about, "I'm taking a third-party deposition. I'm not quite sure if I approach it." Obviously, not sharing anything about the case because it's obvious reasons, but just some practical things. And I think that that's really what makes our training unique, is just the practical aspect of it and the strategic aspect of it as well. But we're really invested, to be honest, we really want the lawyers that we train to be competent litigators who make bigger contributions, who work more efficiently, and have greater opportunities. And we believe that, first of all, we believe our training is obviously going to provide that. But we want to help you get there. And so that's why the office hours is something that we believe can help with that. And you've come to us with what you need, and we're here to help you. Every student that's been through our courses knows that they can contact us, and we will respond. And we will talk them through what issues that they're having. No matter if it was a year ago or two years ago, or it was yesterday, we want our people to be successful. What about, so we talked about COVID, you were going to have something in person, but now is it all virtual? It is. It's virtual and it's on demand, which has really been an exciting development for us to be able to think about our content and how we want to deliver it and how we can have different little pieces of the puzzle. Because we do at ELT, we talk about the litigation, it's a huge puzzle, and every piece fits and connects with the others in a very specific way. But being able to deliver them on demand, so people have access to it for a year. So maybe you think removal to federal court in July, and then you have another removal in November. And you think, what was that thing they said about filing the answer first, if you have what kind of an answer, you can go back and watch it again, so you have access to them on demand. If you can't take the whole training in one sitting, you can go back to it at a later point. We have a number of flexible options though, Ben. Generally speaking, everything is on demand and available, but for firms we've gone in house and we provide specifically tailored firms for, excuse me, trainings for the firms that we've gone to. In-house trainings, if that's what people want, we're able to provide the on-demand trainings. We provide coaching as well, and then we have the subscription model as well, where you say, "Hey, look, I love what I see here. I want to see all of it." And you're coming out with new courses all the time, I want to be able to have that too. So we have options for everybody, whether you're an individual, whether you're a firm, whether you like doing things on demand, whether you want to see our lovely faces. You can do that too. We are here to provide the service that we believe so much in. And we have a promo code, lawyer stories. We have a promo code, lawyer stories, 20% off any course. Any course. Yeah, it goes either from our one hour courses, which range from $49 to $79 now. Those are our lowest prices ever. We wanted to lower the price so they were accessible to everybody. So they are there, they are available, and 20% off with lawyer stories. That code will also apply to bootcamp. Bootcamp is an eight part, almost 13 hour course. You all get full litigation process. We believe so much in bootcamp. And the people that have taken bootcamp, you can see some of the testimonials on our website from both partners who previewed it, as well as people who've gone through it about the impact that bootcamp makes. But that code applies to bootcamp as well. And we're excited for people to see what we have. We also do have a free course then. We can't apply the 20% off course to the 20% of the free course. You just got to take it. It is what it is. Our free course is the five things that we believe every new litigator needs to know right now to fast track career success. You can take it on our website. It's a micro course. It's 25 minutes. Even though it's a micro course, we still give you great written materials with it too, with tips that are very valuable as well. Totally free, totally free. And just before I forget, this is all jurisdictions. This isn't limited to, or is it limited to California, or like, how are we doing this? It's federal. It's federal. And then we do have, and some of the courses, a focus on California. But we do really provide it in a way that it is applicable in every jurisdiction. So it's something that, you know, if you're in California, great. If you're not, you should still be able to take the principles and the strategic tools that we're providing you and apply them wherever you are. The only one that's slightly California-specific right now is our on-demand bootcamp. But we had people from out of state take that course and gain everything that the people from California took. So having that round that we videoed and recorded it, a substantial amount of California people. So it made sense to help them a little bit further along the way. Everything else is completely focused on the federal rules of civil procedure, which we thought was the best way to give it the broadest possible application. We do intend to have a federal bootcamp up that doesn't cover California law. We'll be probably providing that in the fall. So that'll be applicable to everybody. Okay, so, you know, there are, being here at lawyer stories, you know, we do see a lot of things come through, like a lot of different people doing this. They're doing that. They're doing this. They're doing that like a lot of, a lot of different, just a lot of different brands, you know? And I can just, honestly, I could see the passion that you both have for what you're doing. But tell me, tell me, like, what makes it unique, and I know you, you know, you talked a little bit about, you know, just the strategies and, but tell us what makes ELT unique? I think one thing that makes us unique and different is that there's so many ways that you can participate in our courses, right? But also, just how the material is delivered. Let's be honest, a lot of the MCLE or trainings that you take, they're just a talking head that's there talking to you about the code and they might have a PowerPoint and 15 minutes in, you're falling asleep. And that was one thing that, and I were really conscious of when we were thinking about ELT with how we want to deliver this, so you get off of us. And it's not so much a lecture as it is a conversation about, let's talk about removal to federal court. Let's talk about, if you have the ability to do a general denial in state court first, before removing to federal court, you're going to want to do that and here's why. And I think that's one of the big differences as well, is we talk about the why, so that you understand because, you know, to, let's be honest, when you start, especially if you are at a firm, I know my first job, I was given 10 cases and kind of go, here you go, and I had no idea how to move them forward, what do I do, because you don't know the litigation process. And in your first few years, you're given these just as isolated projects and assignments, and you don't have the opportunity to see the entire litigation process. And so that's something we really try to make sure, whether you're taking boot camp or one of our small courses, we try to explain the why and how, how is this going to connect to a motion for summary judgment or trial down the road? And we also have been trying to produce the content in a way that is different, like Cynthia said. Cynthia says as a conversation, it really is, and a lot of what you get there is not just the instruction, which we take great pride in, but we tell you about our mistakes so that you don't make the same sense that when it's important, it real stories about things that we've done, that we think might be maybe a little bit embarrassing, but we bear it all. We tell you because we want you to learn from that. And so everything that we have put forward is really conversational between Cynthia and I. We work together and everything. And Cynthia, like she said, we talk about the law, you know, everybody's got to talk about the law, but we're interested in teaching you how to do it, why you're doing it. What do we, what's the purpose of this? Yeah. Because if you can understand that, that gets you a lot further down the line. And then we teach you how to think strategically about how to apply certain things. For example, when we talk about written discovery, which we have a course on, there's a lot of tools in the discovery process that can be used differently. And you can emphasize, for example, a request for admission to really maximize the potential of it, whereas a lot of people will be like, I'm just going to ask that in a rocketry. And strategically, you lose opportunities that way. So we talk about leverage. We talk about strategy. We really try to get people thinking on a sort of a higher plane about what they're doing because so often as a young attorney, a new attorney, I should say, you get lost. You get lost. And we like to talk about specifically, you know, you're in an office, let's say you work in a firm, somebody comes in, hey, can you prepare? Can you prepare this? And you go, of course, I can prepare this. But that might be the only thing you see on that case. You might look at it and be like, OK, I'll prepare it and get it done. I'll turn it around quickly. But if you can do that work very confidently and efficiently, you're going to get more opportunities. You're going to get more exposure. You're going to be able to do things that you want to do. And as a solo practitioner, honestly, there is a big learning curve. And you might be exposed to things where you have to figure it out quickly. But that time might not be a luxury that you have. And so if you can come and take one of our courses, all of a sudden, what might take you a day's worth of research and getting up to speed, I got that in an hour. And then I have access to this handbook that is to tell me everything I need to do forever. And then you get access to us and you have the class for, so there's a lot of flexibility in what we do. You get us, which I think is a good thing. I don't know. You guys decide. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I just think after hearing Cynthia say, you know, I get handed 10 cases and I'm trying to think, how do I move these forward? I might have a nightmare about that tonight. I don't know why. That's what you did. It's like something that's like, it's going to be an anxiety sort of, but it was a very anxiety. It's a real big though. That's one other thing, Benny, that I would say about what is unique to us is also another layer we add on is, regardless of whether you're solo or in a firm, a lot of, a lot of training doesn't talk about how you relate to your client and their involvement in the process, right? If you're doing a removal or, or preparing for a deposition, how is your client involved in that process? Do you need a declaration and being sensitive to the fact that, you know, your client is running a business or they have their own job to do. So if you're waiting until the last minute to get that declaration, you know, probably not a great idea. So again, just the day to day things that you learn over time as a indicator that as a new attorney, you might not really even think about, oh, wow, I should probably work on that declaration now. And can I have one more thing? This is what happens. We get talking. We start thinking about what we talked about before is really integral to our trainees too, which is we've done it on both sides. And so we, you might say, well, I'm going to be a career plaintiff's attorney. Okay. That's great. That's a great career choice. And we encourage that. And we love it because we've done that too. But isn't it valuable to know how the other side might approach this and how they might be thinking about it? And how can you use that to leverage strategically how you approach the case so that you can be more successful in representing your client's interests and vice versa. Yeah. And we talk about that. Here's what, here's how a plaintiff is going to approach this. Here's how a defendant use it as you see fit in your practice. But it's important to know, because a lot of people get stuck on one side, maybe not stuck, I should say, but they, they, they find that they find, you know, they're comfortable there. And they just end up staying in that, in that role and that's absolutely fine. And look, I've stayed in my role on the defense side for a long time. And that's one of the things that I learned though, when I first came over here was, to Ari's law group, when we were practicing on the plaintiff side is, man, there's a whole difference perspective here that I didn't really effectively consider. And thinking back on that, if I was, if I went back to the defense practice, I would have a whole new set of skills that I never would have had before, because I have that idea of how these things are approached. And so rather than having you have to practice seven years on the plaintiff side, we just give it to you as far as our perspective goes there. So our trainings are really comprehensive in terms of not only content or perspective. And like Cynthia mentioned before, we talk about soft skills, soft skills and navigating clients and firms and things like that and how you approach things, which that's not something that's talked about a lot, but it is so important. And one implementation of one of those skills can make the difference in your career. And I know that sounds crazy, but it really can't. An opportunity that's handled the right way can take you from here to here, just like that. And we want to help you get there. Can you teach soft skills really? Yeah. How do you teach those things? Like give me an example of like teach like a soft skill that you can. I think a soft skill that you can teach is I'll tell people during trainings with ELT is look, when I was a partner, I loved when associates would look at the calendar on the case and say, Hey, I see we have a case management conference coming up next month. Would you like me to be in confer with opposing counsel and put together the case management conference statement for you to review? Boy, I would love that. Or if you have, you know, another soft skill is talking to clients about deposition. Yes. Everybody thinks it's like on TV where you're in the deposition and you're pounding on the table, but how do you really want to approach the deposition understanding the why you're trying to get the information that you need either to move for a summary judgment motion to oppose a summary judgment motion or to prepare for trial. And that might not be elicited in the best manner by being aggressive. You might want to make sure that witness is at ease and that they're comfortable and they're lulled into more of a conversation with the questioning. You want to tell your client that so that your representative who's sitting there isn't saying, well, gosh, they're not being aggressive enough, right? You want to make sure that you're talking to your client about that in the process so that they really understand what's going on. So those are some of the softer skill that we do talk about. So people are aware of them and they're thinking about them. Yeah. We talk a lot about communication. Yeah. And now we've got a firm communicating with clients and how to approach things with your client or with an internal client from being a partner or a supervisor in a way that maximizes your confidence and disability as well. Those are things that we absolutely talk about in the people. Listen, we can't tell you what to say. I would think that would be like a bonus, you know what I mean, to learning all this other stuff. That's actually really cool that you focus a little bit on that, too. So just give me a few skills that a new attorney would need to be successful. I'll start just with a couple of you. And just again, this is something that we have a free course on. So if you want to hear us talk about this more, we're going to do it really quickly, but we have a little tease, Matt, but there we go. We'll give you a preview of the teaser trailer. You know, the first thing that we want attorneys to really focus on is you need to develop the skill of understanding the process. You need to understand how that puzzle fits together. And once you do that, you can really take a job forward in your career immediately. And one of the ways that we coach people to get that started is by using jury instructions. And jury instructions to a lot of attorneys are something that you put together on the eve of trial before that free trial conference. And you have to get that right. You got to work with the council to those things. We tell people that you need to be pulling those jury instructions when, as a plaintiff's attorney, when you start formulating your legal theories for the case, or as a defense attorney, as soon as you get that, because that provides you the roadmap of the elements that you need to be focused on throughout the entirety of the case. And that frames your perspective. And so we immediately want to talk and instruct people about perspective on the global nature of the case. And then I think there's a couple really notable skills that you can also develop that will really set you apart as well. I think one of them is taking a good deposition. And that comes with time. But I will also say that it doesn't necessarily mean that if you've been attorney for a long time, you can take a good deposition. And that's something I learned early on as an associate. I remember reading deposition transcripts to draft a motion for summary judgment. And they were taken by somebody who was very senior, seasoned litigator, trial attorney. And I thought, oh, these are going to be great depositions. I'm going to have wonderful little nuggets to pull for my separate statement of undisputed facts. And I read the depositions and I thought, my gosh, there's nothing here. It's just all muddy. And so reading those transcripts, sometimes a bad transcript, really gives you the ability to see how would I have handled that differently? How could I have asked that? Or where would I have focused the questioning on to make sure that I had what I needed for that summary judgment motion? So I think developing the comfort in taking the deposition and knowing what you need from that witness is absolutely a skill that's going to serve you well as a litigator throughout your career. And it's something that I think attorneys need to develop. And it's something that you can do early on, maybe you're not, I was taking depositions of my first year of practice kind of like, here you go. But you might not be in that position, read transcripts. You'll read a transcript that is a horrible transcript and you will know it. You'll read a transcript that is a wonderful transcript and you'll recognize that. So developing the ability to take a good deposition, I think, is something that every litigator really needs to be able to do. And then I think that, finally, just one more teaser, learn how to write motions of summary judgment. Yeah. Options for such a critical and impactful tool. And they're very difficult and they can be very complicated, both from a planning perspective to the deposition piece to all of that. And learning how to properly draft the motions for summary judgment. Don't be me in that office with no air conditioning for 130 hours and get credit for none of it. You'll learn how to do it effectively so that you have an opportunity to really advance your clients interest in a way that is very consequential. And it's a skill that you really do need to refine. You don't just pop out of law school or being ready to draft a good motion for summary judgment. That's horrible. And we talk about this often. We see motions for summary judgment that are poorly written all the time. Yeah. Because likely no one has ever given them the opportunity to have instruction on it. And so develop that skill and you will be a go-to at your firm or if you're on your own, you will have a procedural tool in your tool belt that is really one that can change the dynamics of the case for your client. And if you put a good motions for summary judgment on file, that changes the exam in the case really quickly, really quickly. We can definitely shift leverage. So those sort of four little things, which are not really little at all, but those four things we think are really important for people to really take a job. For sure. So sort of shifting gears, just a question for like that's not really so much related. But like, do you have any advice for how like a young lawyer or a new lawyer can manage stress? That's a great question. That's a great question. I know that's kind of out of the blue, I understand, but I just need help with the question. So it is stressful. Being an attorney is stressful and I don't think anybody, you know, let's just acknowledge that and admit that. Like a stressful all or something. One thing that always helped me was finding a community where I could talk to people about, especially coming up as an associate, what I was working on. I was lucky enough in the first few firms that I worked at that I did have a community of people where I could go into their office and say, Hey, can I read this intro per week to you? And will you tell me that it's sound okay or, you know, will you take a look at this motion for me really quickly and let me know, am I on the right track or what do you think? So I think finding community wherever you are, maybe it's law school friends that you're still in touch with, maybe it's fellow associates that you started with that you can rely on and pick each other's brain is something that helped me deal with the stress. The other thing, I guess this goes back to my, should I be a doctor or should I be a lawyer? I thought, well, if I don't, if I screw up, I can probably fix it somehow and no one's going to die. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's just, I'm going to give you two quick things and then the really big thing I think, one organization, spend time more time than you think is necessary being organized to communicate with the people that you're working with, especially about deadlines and where you're at with respect to certain projects. The stress gets higher when you get behind and then these explanations have to happen and maybe you missed something. So organization and communication, I think are really critical. And then the third thing, which I think is most important is learn to be willing to receive criticism. I did not become a good lawyer until someone tore apart my work and really sat down and said, okay, you want to learn, here's why you're, you're doing everything well. And the first thing I got back, I typed it and it was on white paper and I swear I've been, the paper was pink when it came back because the white and the red, it went all together. You couldn't even read it. I mean, every time they're a little bit better and it hurt, it hurt and it was a comfortable group. It was stressful. But in that process, when I was, I was, got comfortable receiving that criticism and asking for it, frankly, ask, how can I get better? It's going to be a season of frustration potentially, maybe a little bit of embarrassment. And but at the end of that, you will be better and that helps you start to move forward in your career in a way that you're always going to be stressed as a lawyer to some degree. But if you can implement those things, you'll start moving along in the process where the stress is really just the cases and maybe the clients who don't tell you everything then, you know, you wanted to know. I think that's one other thing that probably helped me coming to terms with stress is I always wanted to fix it for my client, right? And I finally had an epiphany one day where I thought, you know what, the facts are what they are. I cannot change the facts, but how can I position my client in the best way with these facts? And it may be getting the case into an early, you know, an early mediation. It may be trying to, you know, be creative with discovery, whatever it may be, but accepting that I cannot change the fact. I think was something when I finally was free enough to accept that, I kind of felt like a little less stressed, like, okay, well, these are the facts. What can I do with them? Yeah. Wow. And I just want to say that everybody out there that is in that position, it gets better. It gets better. The first for you is being a lawyer are tough, but you develop your skills and you get better and there's a lot of great opportunities out there and you can make an impact on people's lives. And that's how you think. Do you think when there's lawyers, like seasoned attorneys are like writing all of your paper in like a red Sharpie, do you think like, do you think it's just like their opinion about how it should be written because everybody likes something perfectly fine, but they might like something a certain way. Is that like, can I tell you a funny story? There was this lawyer, I'm not, I will not name this lawyer who was really trying to assert themselves at the firm that I was at. And the way that they decided to do that, I was probably a second year attorney and they decided they were going to supervise me and really bring me along to your point. Like I didn't, I don't know if what this individual was doing was right. And so I had some fun one time then. And I went on the system and I pulled one of the pieces of work that they had done and assigned it similarly. And I put a couple paragraphs in of the exact same stuff just to test the theory. And when they got to that portion, they're like, this is garbage. What, how could you do that? That's the answer. But then I knew right then and there, I said, okay, I'm, you know, you have to do what you need to do. Right. But you, you as a critical thinker and lawyers are critical thinkers, you're going to have to use your judgment observation. The person that did that, I knew was someone that I wanted to practice like. And there was other people who tried to tell me certain things. I was like, I would never practice that way. I can remember, Cynthia and I were a firm and we came out of a training one time with a very senior attorney and we're like, that's, that's great there, but we're just not going to do that. That doesn't work. And so you need to decide how you are going to practice. And that's being evaluated in terms of the advice that you're getting. And, you know, like Cynthia said, sometimes people who have been practicing a long time don't always do it correctly. And so you need to really be mindful of that and really sit through to find someone that you can really rely on to give you the good instruction and mentorship really that you need. And that's hard. It's so hard to get that. But I think to your point, Ben, it is, it really just depends too because I remember being an associate in drafting discovery for one partner and they were like, no, it has to be this way. And then drafting discovery for another partner that like, no, it has to be this way. So you, you begin to understand different styles that partners like and think, okay, this is for this partner. So they're going to want to have it this way. But through that process, when you get to a point in your career, when you're working on matters, more independently, at that point, you'll be able to look back at all the different styles and approaches that you've seen and say, you know what, I like this. And I like that. And you develop your own. I see. Yeah. It's hard. If you're at a firm, you're going to have that experience. I know I did. I'd be like, okay, because your partner just down the hall told me the exact opposite thing to do on his discovery, but okay, I'm going to do your discovery this way. You develop your own style and ultimately, you know, I got to a certain point where, you know, one of the things we really don't want our people to do is just, this is what you're always told when you're at a firm, just get an example of a system, just get an example of a system. Because you don't know if this right or not. Right. And so after a period of time, you develop your own style and I had my, I just, I did all my own things and maybe I had, I lost some time on that, but I developed my own style and knew how I wanted to do things. Yeah. And you know, you go back to those things, but it takes time and it takes some patience and hopefully you do get some mentorship and help a long way to help guide you there. Yeah. That's awesome. So your website's amazing. I saw it today, Elite Litigation Training. It looks great. I mean, you have some really, you know, people on there like talking about like the health You have some videos up there, I recommend everybody go check it out. So success driven training, expert insights, flexible learning options, pick a course 20% off with lawyer stories, code. Did we leave anything out? Is there anything else you'd like to say, like any advice you'd like to share? Did I completely get something? I think just, it's becoming a strong litigator is a process. Yeah. And at the beginning of that process, it can be overwhelming. It can be terrifying at times. It will be stressful. I feel like at about five years, I didn't know everything. I still don't know everything, but at about the five to seven year mark, I had a pretty good idea of what I needed to do and was able to figure most things out. So if you're in that one to five year period, I would just say, hang in there. Hang in there. You won't get the experience, the confidence will come, you know, look at our trainings. We're there to help you and support you and give you the resources that you need, but stick with it. It does get better. And I just had one more thing, it's right on our website and we really believe this. Don't sacrifice your career to trial and error learning. When we were coming up, there really wasn't another way. We didn't have these opportunities. We didn't have on demand courses with this sort of practical knowledge. Cynthia didn't even have my internet. She was barely out of phone. And so there's other ways and we are very fortunate to live in a time now and have access to things like elite litigation training that can really shape your career in a more expedited way that is so much, so much better. So take advantage of those opportunities. It doesn't have to be sink or swim, which was always what I was told. Sink or swim. You got to go do it. When I did my first trial, I was just sent there. I didn't know I was trying the case by myself and they said, well, this is how you learn. And to some extent, there are things that you are going to have to do that are like that. But things like elite litigation training can really help get you on your way. And so take advantage of that. That's awesome. Well, you know, it's great to meet you both. Thanks for coming on the show and I have no more questions. You guys, you know, you really did a, yeah, you did a great job explaining everything. I mean, you mentioned it before. We just want to put a formal request in. We would like a lawyer stories event in Southern California in 2025. We're going to give you till 2025, because, you know, it's already halfway through 2020. We want to be a part of this community. We feel like we're already a part of the community. Yeah, you are. For sure. Yeah. 24. We're ready. We're ready. I was. Well, thank you very much. Stay right there. And we so appreciate the opportunity. My pleasure. So nice. So nice. Thank you. It's my pleasure to be connected and everybody, thanks for tuning in wherever you are in the world today. Enjoy yourselves. Bye. Bye. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. a. 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