(upbeat music) What happens when close enough isn't close enough? What's the next step up for accurate models in three-rail O-scale? Tonight, we speak with Scott Mann from Third Rail and learn about the world of high-end brass models. Get your ticket from the station, grab a seat, make sure you don't miss the train. What? (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Good evening, everyone. And thanks for tuning in to episode 80 of the miniature models podcast. I'm one of your hosts, John Schwartz, and with me as always is my co-host, Johnny. How are we tonight? - Sup, John? Glad to be back recording the miniature models podcast again, which is now becoming the John and Johnny podcast at this point. - Master K. Kaku is working perfectly, Johnny. (laughing) - Yeah, so little schemas coming together. - Yes, both of the mats are booked for tonight, but fear not, we have brought in a returning guest to join in our discussion tonight, and he is very excited to be here because of our guest as well. Returning for his second episode in a row is Sid from Sid's Trains. How are you doing tonight, Sid? - I'm doing good, I'm happy to be here, and we definitely have a great guest tonight. I'm excited to hear the stories and talk about everything related to model trains in this company. - Absolutely, and Mr. Scott Mann, sir, thank you so much for joining us, and how are you doing this evening? - You're very welcome, thank you for having me. I'm doing great, and we just got done with a big two project container that came in and shipping everything out, and then got our fingers crossed that everything is received well, and so far so good. - Glad to hear, yeah, those have been, we were talking about this a little bit before the show, but those have been the hottest item on the miniature models podcast discord server. Our new industry, new products chat, has been nothing but pictures of those cars that you guys have released, and people are over in the room with them, they're beautiful, and if I was an Amtrak person, I would be very broke right now. - That's my job. - Oh my gosh, yeah. (laughing) - No, he's right, they are beautiful, and they're coming in all over the place. Everybody who's gotten one has just been thrilled with it, and yeah, I'm with you, Johnny, it makes me jealous too. My God, the quality of the darn things is nuts. - So, you know, I get all the credit, but really a lot of the work are the people overseas who are real craftsmen at doing this, and then the preparation of doing the design work, there's a group of people over there that have been doing our design work for the last 20 years, they really know what our customers want, because after every project, the feedback I get, I bring back to them, and then I have my partner in crime, Jonathan Pfeiffer, who is an architect bike trade, so he can actually draw up all of the graphics for the decals, for the lettering for these, and then, of course, we are partnered with Amtrak, and Matt Donnelly, a Vamtrac who's in charge of licensing, is a model railroader himself. He'll probably be listening to this. Hi, Matt, and he helps us out with getting the colors right, getting all the graphics right, interior colors, et cetera, and if we're missing any data, he tries to help find it for us. So, it's really a team effort to make a model like this. We don't just, you know, take a guess from photograph or something like that. There's a lot of preparation that goes into it. So, I'm really glad that you guys noticed that, and see the quality in it. It's very gratifying. Oh, yeah, it does not go unnoticed. So, real quick here, we're just gonna check in with everybody and see just kind of what you all been doing with just your regular railroads and everything at home. Sid, let's start with you. What have you been up to recently, and just your model railroading? Recently, I haven't been doing a ton in terms of model railroading. I've been focusing a lot on Mallor Hobby, which is cars. I'm a big Corvette guy. I have two Corvettes, one of which is a project, which I've been working on a lot because it's summertime. But I have been doing my usual working on the trains, working on all the electronics for people. Not been really running much since I've just been mainly working on stuff for people. But as always, it's fun to just come down every once in a while and look around, but whatever is on my walls or run something for a minute, it just allows you to get away for a few minutes and kind of just forget the crazy world around you. And I definitely am looking forward to some projects I have here as soon. My interest in new electronics is always being fueled by discovering new things 'cause the world of three rail has always been very, I guess, centered around a couple of control systems, but I've been discovering new systems and sound systems that I might be able to use. So that's kind of been what I've been doing in terms of model railroading. - That is fantastic. And yeah, dude, your new vet is absolutely nuts. I think it's not, should not be as nice as I was ridiculous. Johnny, how about you, Sarah, what's she been up to? - I've been doing so many things since her last show. I can't remember what I even talked about her last show in terms of what I sit during my check-in. But in terms of probably the last two weeks alone, I have, as of today, I've been working on this lovely MCH Premier, Black Widow Jeep. Ironically enough, I've been, Scott, I've been kicking myself in the rear because I wasn't into your stuff until after all the Black Widow Jeeps were gone from your most recent run. So I was like, ah, I have to find another one and they just don't exist. So I finally had to sit by on my behalf at York, A-M-T-H Black Widow Jeep 9, that's Premier. And I've been running it and the PS3 just went out on it. So I upgraded it to Blue Army, which has been a significant upgrade. It sounds fantastic, runs great. But I looked at the light package 'cause MCH did model that. It's got just the normal two headlights. And for the SP guys, you know, there's the gyro light, the Mars light, and then there's normal headlight. There's a gazillion lights on SP diesels. And this one just didn't have it. So it just looked like a shark's nose in the front. It just looked weird. So it bothered me to the point where I actually went out and bought some items from Precision Scale and some other brass pieces. Dropped the holes myself, put new headlights in, and I'm currently actually waiting for some more parts. So hopefully that should be done soon. I got a lovely box car from John in the mail. As a gift and John, I very much appreciate that. It was an SP Atlas box car, which I have weathered up and it is now part of my freight train. And I think the other thing that I've done that I think that John, you absolutely love is I weathered my Santa Fe 3751, the TMCC one from a line out. And man, that's a nice engine. I can't stop running it. It was too clean for me, 'cause everything in my lads weathered. And now that it's been weathered, I just love running it and it just blends in perfectly. So lots of fun little projects. - No, I agree, dude. The weight that you added with that weathering is ridiculous. The amount of half that you can convey with just a little bit of extra paint on there is fantastic. Mr. Scott, what you've been up to just and done anything recently in your personal train, collecting world or anything, what you've been up to? - Well, I am not actually into model trains as a hobby. That was my father. I've always been into model airplanes. And when COVID hit, before COVID, I was traveling to the factory every two or three months, I was spending about 30% of my time over there inspecting projects, planning, attending design meetings and things like that. And then COVID hit, I found myself with a lot of extra time on my hands and the factories were slowing down because they were hit with COVID as well. And so I went back into my childhood hobby, which was RC planes. And that's what I enjoy to do when I'm not working. But I do understand the hobby mentality. I know people want to have a very good out of box experience. They don't want to be hassled by anything or look at models that are falling apart in their hands. So we do everything in our power to prevent that. And there's a lot of checks and balances that we do with the factories to make sure that doesn't happen. Sometimes we're successful. Sometimes we have to catch up with a little bit of customer service. And we're very quick about that. And I say, overall, we keep our customers very happy. So they'll come back for more. And that's what keeps our business going. We've been at this now for 50 years and I've been doing this for 25. - That's a very impressive work for so many years. Now Scott, I do have to ask, what is your favorite model that you have from your collection? - Oh, that's a hard one. That's really a hard one. It changes from week to week, depending on what I'm flying. There's just so many. - That's relatable across all hobbies, the changing from week to week. - But you know, actually, most of the time I'm going out there to relax and not stress myself out even more. So I'll bring some really inexpensive foamy airplanes like a little Corsair or a 3D flying plane. Something else that I've learned in the process was 3D printing. Not to be confused with 3D flying, but a 3D printing for model airplanes is really, they go hand in hand. And I've got some airliners that I've made and an air bus, eight foot long air bus, 321 DC six. I could go on and on. So I thought maybe I can apply this to model trains and this is the filament type of 3D printing. So I learned how to 3D print. I've got a couple printers at home and I started asking the design group, hey, can you send me some 3D design files for, you know, instead of mold files, send me the positives and I'll try to print them, but the resolution just isn't there. You gotta make the tooling, it's very expensive. Make the tooling and the parts will come out nice and crisp. You try to 3D print them, they've got lines on them. They're not very easy to fill and print, fill and paint and smooth the surfaces and things like that. So I did learn a bit and tried to apply it to the model train business. Some people are doing very well with resin printing and are making freight cars and accessories and parts and that's great, but I didn't see a way to do it in my business since we're actually trying to make a profit. - That's fair enough. John, how about your self-man? What have you been up to? - I have been up to, not a whole lot recently, mainly just getting plans ready for the rest of summer here with you guys and everybody else. Did have some fun previous weekend or, actually a couple of the previous weekends, going through some friends' storage units, cleaning out some collections, which was kind of interesting. It's always fun to go diving and just see what interesting stuff other people have collected over the years for trains. And we came out pretty well from that, but apart from that, nothing really crazy. Just been getting ready for summer, looking forward to our upcoming shows, especially this one here, but, well, man, I'm gonna go on about planes if I don't, I gotta do one more plane question for Scott before we get back into trains. We're gonna do a plane podcast. - Okay. - Do you do, obviously, there's a big difference from what I've heard between power types. Do you do any gas power, any electric, any turbine, or is it all electric? What kind of stuff do you run with the planes? - So, when I was a young guy, all there was was nitro. There's just those glow plug engines, and I had some powered airplanes that I play with, some gliders that I put small engines on, and stuff like that. And then all of that went on hold for 30 to 40 years with family and business and life. And then when COVID hit, oh, I saw my airplanes up in the rafters, it's like, I think I need to try this again. And everybody is into electric now. They use lipobatteries and very powerful brushless motors. And wow, you can get so much more power out of these things, but you can only fly for about five minutes with an electric setup. So with that come the jets with ducted fans. They call them EDFs. And those ducted fans now are extremely powerful, and they almost sound like a jet engine. So I've got a couple of those. I've got electric, I've got some nitro. I do just about anything under the sun for the RC planes. And it's a lot of fun. - That's really cool. I was like hearing about other hobbies that I kind of have a sort of knowledge of, but not exactly like from some, it's cool hearing about it from someone who's actually into it. And there's always parallels between our different hobbies. But yeah, let's get into our, after I remind myself we do trains here. Let's get into our icebreaker here. So Scott, what is your favorite model that Third Rail has made so far? - Or Golden Gate Depot. - Or Golden Gate Depot. - Or Golden Gate Depot, yes. - Steam Engine-wise was the Allegheny. That was my ultimate favorite, highest detail, most fantastic model we ever made. I have some favorites from Europe. I really loved making the A4 Mallard, which is the streamlined engine from the UK. And I have had a close friend who passed away who was our dealer in the UK. And I used to travel over there and he helped me go to the shows 'cause he had to drive on the wrong side of the road. I couldn't do that. (laughing) And so he'd drive me around. He'd drive me around. And we go to the shows once a year and I started announcing models for the UK. And that was a lot of fun. And as far as Golden Gate Depot, that's a tough one. I mean, a lot of the cars are pretty amazing. The super liners have really hit a high note with detail and the accuracy of the interiors and the window treatments. If you notice, there's a black rim that goes around all the windows. That's a plastic. That's an injection molded plastic part that they glue on and on the inside, the windows themselves are polycarbonate and they're CNC to fit into the window space from behind. And it's a lot of technology and it all happened sort of by accident because the factory we used to make the cars instead of using windows, they also made cell phone parts for Samsung and they would use that polycarbonate for the camera windows for Samsung cell phones way back then. And they said they asked their manager, "Hey, can we borrow those machines at night? "We can make these cool windows for Scott." That's fantastic. So we've been doing it that way ever since. It's been like 20 years of that. That's awesome. Oh wow. And they look great. Loves them like that. Looking to expand your collection? 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If you've had a large collection or interested in downsizing and making some cash, you can head on over to sellmytrains.com. It doesn't get easier than that. You can find them using our affiliate link, www.trains.com/mmop, or if you want to use our one-time promo code MMOP, you can get $10 off a single purchase on the Trains.com website. So check out Trains.com and start expanding your collection today. I gotta ask, you mentioned the European market. So we're, you know, the three of us here are very familiar with the American side of the market in terms of three-wheel-o. Can you tell us a little bit about what differences are and what models you've done for the European market and how it compares to the American side of things? - I met a really neat group of guys from the biggest hobby shop in Paris called Trans-Europe Trains. And I believe they're still there. And they wanted me to make what's called the Liberation Macado for them. And if you're a history buff, you'll know that when the Germans took over France, we bombed the entire infrastructure of railroads, factories, anything that was related to moving weapons around. So that the Germans couldn't use it. And so after the war, after the war, the French needed locomotives to get their railroads restarted. So they ordered 1500 of these macados of their design from Baldwin locomotive works. And we made them here and shipped them by barge over to France. And it was a 282, but they call it a 141. They count only the wheels on one side. So it's called a 141R and it was nicknamed the Liberation Macado. So we made this for the hobby shop in France. They sold it exclusively. And I think we sold over 400 models through them and it was a raving success. But it's really hard to do business in other countries. They have a different philosophy. They have a different expectation of not paying for things right away. And we wanted to be paid when we shipped because we know what happens when you don't get the payment and you share. So that was it. That's all they wanted to do with us. And we did a few more locomotives in the UK. But people in the UK, they're pretty sharp. A lot, if you go to the show in Telford once a year, it's in September, Telford is near Birmingham, north of London. If you go to that show, you'll see tons and tons of vendors all making parts in their garages for model trains. They'll make die casts, they'll make soft castings, they'll do etchings, and they'll order things from overseas. Well, for them, it's not overseas, it's over land. They'll order things from China and Korea. And so I came to the Telford show with a brochure and with a brochure, the Flying Scotsman. And I thought, well, if anything's going to make it, that is. So I took some orders and I made an impression. And I came back the next year and I hadn't finished them, I was still collecting more orders. So it was taking a little while. And there were already two other people that had models on their table that they had made in Korea. So they're very industrious in the UK. And so it's a hard market to stay in because there's a lot of competition that pops up when they see someone's having success. And so that was my experience in Europe. It was really hard to do it as a foreigner and you had to get their attention and you had to get your models out there quickly or someone else will do it for you. And that's what I know. - Oh, wow. - That's amazing. - Correct. - So Johnny and John, recently Tony was obviously over in Europe. He showed us a photo of an engine and the card in this hobby shop he was in said Sunset Models on it. I don't know if that was, I don't remember what engine it was, John. You might remember. - I'm fairly confident it was a one for one. I'm almost positive. - Because I remember seeing it and I didn't even know this existed because like Johnny was saying, we don't know a ton about that side of the market. And obviously 500 pieces is a pretty substantial amount. But if they're sold over there, there's probably no chance they'll ever really come across the water 'cause they probably just want them. We'll keep them and they're not gonna sell them. Plus they have their own like eBay's and things that kind of keep everything over there. - That's really cool to hear that there's a little bit more to it than just the American side. - That's a great choice y'all did to me. - Same in China. Same in China. They are making trains for the Chinese market. The Chinese train companies are, they're hobby shops in Shanghai and in Hong Kong that are ordering Chinese prototypes for the locals. And they love playing with HO trains over there. So the market's pretty crazy. - I think Bocman. - Yeah, Bocman has a whole line I think of. You can get pretty much the entirety of their old Chinese steam fleet made over there. And I think they'll even sell to hear if you know the right channels. But yeah, it's like a whole 'nother side of how you never even hear about it. - When I first went over there in the year 2000 and I was taking their commuter trains to the factories, you would see these Mikado steam engines going the other direction, hauling coal. So they were still using steam engines in the year 2000 over there. So a lot of people saw that and they are nostalgic about it. - Yeah, they were using them for quite a while until the end. - You mentioned HO just a second ago. And maybe I'm wrong. So the sunset in the past made HO correct 'cause I've seen sunset boxes with HO inside of them. Is there any backstory to that? And maybe why you stop doing it or is there any? - So here's the history in a nutshell. My dad grew up in New York. He grew up in Queens. And as a kid, he used to run around and chase trains. That was his love was watching the steam engines in the sunny side yards and yet he would steal his dad's eight millimeter movie camera and take movies of them. And I've seen some of those as kind of funny. And then as he got a little older, he got a line all set and he used to play with it in the basement and he built the cardboard building. So he was totally into model trains. And as he got older, when he moved us out to California, we had a nice big garage, we had a two and a half car garage and he filled the entire thing with an HO layout. And he would go to the local hobby shop, the train shop in Santa Clara, got to know the guys and got to know a little bit about the business. But my dad was a test salesman for a fair child. So he was technically savvy and he had some technical savvy and he put some of those electronics into his layout and he was enjoying electronic switches and all sorts of things. And when he would go on his business trips, I would run the trains at full speed and if anything fell off the track, I would throw it underneath the water heater. (laughing) So 20, 25 years later, they had to pull out the water heater and lift the stand that it was on. And there were these freight cars under there and he's like, well, how'd those get there? (laughing) So he tried to keep me away from his stuff and he bought me in scale equipment and I would ride my bike over to Sprouse Reads which was the old longs drugs or CVS pharmacy of today. Sprouse Reads was the name of it and there was a little hobby shop, keto hobby shop and they would sell these little end scale cars for $3.75 and I put them in my backpack and off I went. So I built my little layout and it got chewed up by a new puppy that we had, a colleague, came home from school one day with watching her chew on one of my locomotives. And so that was the end of my trains. I started doing airplanes after that. And so my father, he lost his job in the 70s. There were a lot of layoffs in '74 and he had always eyed, he was quite the entrepreneur so he was always eyeing another business to do and he met the guys at the train shop and he got to know the business and they introduced him to the guy who ran Westside models. The name escapes me right now. So Westside models was offering franchises to anyone who wanted to buy into the train business. He would give you access to the builder, access to dealer names and a little advice. And so Dan McKee of key models and Oriental models and then my father joined his franchisees. And the builder was in Japan, it was a KTM of Japan and their subcontractor was Sam Hongse in Korea. So Korea wasn't making the model, they were just doing some of the soldering or something. - Oh wow. - So my father's first model was the Great Northern '01 Makado. Unpainted, no lights, just motor and motion DC. And he had a thousand orders for them and he brought in a thousand models. So it was a complete sellout. They cost $25 a piece at the time and he sold them for about $75 a piece. So basically doing the math, he was making twice as much in the first project as he makes it a whole year as a sales manager for Fairchild. - Wow, that's fantastic. - And so that was it. He was sold at that level though, he didn't stop. Now, when you start with the thousand models on your first project, it doesn't stay that way. The next project is 500 models and 400 models and the prices go higher and higher and higher. One day, Sang Lee of Sam Hongse was at KTM at the same time as my father and he whispered in my dad's ear, he said, "Hey, instead of buying from these guys, "how about you let us make the whole model for you in Korea?" So they had no problem doing that. So my father went in that direction and he started ordering directly from Sam Hongse and he actually kind of taught them how to make these things. 'Cause he was an engineer. He knew how to manufacture the models from the ground up. And so they learned a lot from him, I believe, and they used that to sell models to other people. And that went on for a few years and he did well. And then one day he had another locomotive. I forget, it was another great northern locomotive. I forget which one, maybe an S2, an H.O. And he wanted to do a rerun. But Dan McKee already said to Sam Hongse, "Oh, I'd like to do the same model." And instead, they told my father, "I'm sorry, we already offered the rerun to Dan McKee." So they took my father's design work and engineering work and sold it to key models or gave it to key models and charged much higher priced key models. So my father was pretty pissed and he told him to go F off and he found some other small builders. So you see, all the people that started making trains in Korea came out of Sam Hongse. They were all young engineers, young designers, and they all branched out, started their own little factories and they were called little tigers. I think they called them over there. And so all the new little factories which pop up and we had our pick to build with. And my father started experimenting with O-scale and G-scale and N-scale and all sorts of scales. He went up, he was all over the place. And he did very well for a number of years. And as time went on, the technology started to get more difficult. And the three rail market showed up. Are you guys into the three rail market? Is this podcast in that direction? Or is it just two rail low scheme? - Oh yeah, three rail. Where most of the young guys are. - Okay, so at the time, at the time, nobody was really making scale models. This was back in the, I'd say, the late 80s, the mid to late 80s. And Dad went to a local show, the Cal Stewart Show in Santa Clara. And he brought with him a scale O-scale, all brass, unpainted, New York Central K5. And he had put pick-up rollers on it and he was running it back and forth on the track with a Lionel Reversi unit, showing people that you can have a scale model in three rail. And most people looked at it and said, "Who would want that?" (laughing) And so he kind of took a step back and he didn't know what to do. And then one day, his builder, his regular builder in Korea said, "Hey, there's this guy, this factory "that just went bankrupt. "And the bank has padlocked their facility "and they're gonna sell it to the highest bidder. "Do you want me to bid on it for you?" And the project was, "A Williams S2 Turban." - Oh wow. - There's the story world. - There's the story. - Here's the story. - So my sister, my sister Margot, who is a wonderful graphic artist, she came up with a third rail logo in about 15 minutes. And third rail was born. 'Cause we got the, we won the bid. And the backstory is, Williams trains was making these models in Korea, in brass, scale models, and they were competing against Lionel, who was at Sam Hongse at the time. And Lionel was very quiet about what they made, and they would just announce it as they were finishing it. And so finally, the ad came out with an S2 Turban from Lionel. And Jerry Williams saw that their builder was falling behind, it wasn't finishing, and there was no way that he was gonna be able to compete. So he just let the contract expire, and the builder went bankrupt. And Jerry left Korea and started making models in China after that, with Bach. I believe. And so my father, that was his entry to third rail, was entry to three rail, was the S2 Turban. And that's about when I came into the picture, I joined the business in '97, after spending 12 years at Lockheed, and various other companies doing aerospace engineering. I have a degree in physics, but I always have a mind for business. I've always watched my parents running the business. And so I wanted to get in with that, and help improve the business and the quality. And so I convinced him to allow me to join. And we went over to Korea, and we gathered about four builders in Korea. And we got a larger letter of credit limit from the bank, so that we could do multiple projects at the same time. And that's really how we took off. And we focused on the O scale, three rail and two rail market, because if you get the quantities and the builder was happy, and we were happy, and it just went from there. But I'm telling you, getting the quality was a real tough thing. They wanted to do things the old way. They didn't want to, you know, they didn't want to go to the trouble and effort to make a model that wouldn't fall apart as it went down the track. And from my aerospace design work and engineering work, I wanted to use the same gearbox, the same mechanism from one model to the next, as much as we could standardize the wiring. So, you know, we wouldn't have problems going from one project to another. And that really helped, and our quality improved. And really, the customers tell us what to make. We get suggestions from people, and we float them out there, and the ones that stick are the ones that we make. And that's still pretty much the same thing today. 'Cause I really don't know what to make. I need to listen to you guys. What do you want? And then, that's what I'll make. If I can get enough orders for it. - That's really cool. - That's really cool. - That's dangerous power to give us their service. (laughing) - Not so bad if you're willing to pay for it. (laughing) - Absolutely. - That's fair enough. - Money talks, money talks. That's a fantastic story. Oh my gosh. It's funny how you said like what happened with Sam Hongse. It's very similar to how stuff happened with like Mike Wolf and Williams splitting off from there. The sort of way things develop and evolve. That's a fascinating story. I didn't know a lot of that stuff. And that's a who's who of brass. He and Sam Hongse my gosh, that's quite the history. - That's really cool to know that the story behind the turbine is, I guess, real. Like I've heard that story before. And I always question. I was like, it sounds like it could be real 'cause there's so many stories about you. 'Cause didn't you guys also purchase stuff from right-of-way industries? Like you have a Che, you have the Western Maryland Che. - You know that from right-of-way. - You know when my father, when my father was over in Korea, some of the builders would say, "Hey, Mort." Would you like to take these off our hands or just sitting in our warehouse? - I mean, oh sure, okay. - Yeah. - You know, and then you bring 'em over and box 'em up. There was one time though, when dad was fighting with, say, young Lee at Sam Hongse after they broke up. And they were both at the Oskill West Show at the Santa Clara Convention Center. And there's a, if you've ever been there, there's a long escalator that goes from the meeting floor, the meet floor up to a balcony area where you can access the parking lot, the parking garage. And Sam Lee was coming down the escalator and my dad saw him and he started going up on the other side of the escalator and Sam Lee turned around and he started running up fast. (laughing) 'Cause he knew my dad was just really mad about the whole thing and my dad's never heard anybody, but he's six foot three and a half and 250 pounds and he's a force to deal with, that's for sure. And he's no longer with us. He passed away in 2007. - Oh, sorry to hear that. - Yeah. And I weren't 10 years with him every day. It was really one of the best experiences. If you think I'm nice to the customers, it's really because of what my father taught me about how to treat people, how to deal with people, especially angry people, people who are disappointed or what have you. It took a little learning and he was a good teacher about that. And same with the builders, we treat them very kindly. We don't lose our temper with them. We try to give them what they need to succeed and continue. And when they need help financially, we lend them a hand. And that's why we have the same guys working with us for the last 20 years over in China. They came out of a factory that was failing and they followed us to do independent work with us. So it's very nice. - That speaks volumes I think more than anything is how, I mean, you can make a great product, but if you're not a nice person to deal with, then it just turns people off of it. So the fact that I feel like you guys do have a reputation of being very customer oriented, very down to earth and who actually, you talk with us and actually try to understand what we want. And that's really, that's great to hear that. - Comes out of my personality and what I've learned. So you're lucky. (laughing) - Could have gotten a jerk doing it. - That's right. - That's fantastic. - Take these trains, you can take these trains and keep it kid-friendly. (laughing) - Well, that's one of the things that surprised me when I first started learning about third rail and your product line was, you know, I'd have questions about it with our community. And the almost, I get the same response almost all the time when I have a question. It's not, oh, go check this form out or go read this website. It's, why don't you just email Scott? He's pretty quick to respond. He's always welcoming and always willing to work with people. And I was like, there's no way this guy will be willing to take time out of his busy day and answer such a medium question. But when I reached out to you, he responded, same way. - And I enjoyed the business part. - You were very friendly and I appreciate that. - I appreciate the truth. I've met some pretty amazing people. You really don't know who you're dealing with. You see, train guys at the show, one's a neurosurgeon, another one's an airline pilot. I met the retired president of JetBlue one day and we started talking about his next project, Iridium, where they put up these satellites for airlines to talk to. - Oh, wow. - And it's just fascinating. I just find everybody's lives to be incredibly fascinating to me and that's why. So you never know who you're dealing with. - Okay. - Trains, oh, sorry, John, I was just gonna say it to that point, it's got me there. Yeah, trains, that's one of the nice things about our hobby that I've always found is it's such a universal love. There's a quote, I don't remember who it was from. I think it was from a National Geographic film, actually. Gentlemen said, it transcends all languages, all barriers. You find it being hangs down to the common man. It's everybody can appreciate it. - Want to support your favorite O-scale podcast and rock some awesome merch? Well, now you can. We've teamed up with redbubble.com and have come up with a great selection of gear that you can get right now. They have everything from shirts, hoodies, stickers, mugs, bags, you name it. Heck, you could even get a wall clock with us on it. All this great stuff and more at redbubble.com. Links are down in the show notes. So grab yourself some gear and rock some awesome podcast merch. - So here's another question that I get from a lot of people and I'm just going to get it out there and over with. Why do you have two different companies? Why is there Golden Gate Depot? Why is there sensitive models? Well, when I was a young man, I started Golden Gate Depot to import leftovers through dad from Korea and sell them to fund my college. (laughing) - That's awesome. - And I got some precision scale stuff. I got just a few projects and I met people that we ended up hiring at the office like a curly guy named Ken Belliber. He's a fantastic painter. And I'll tell you about the J-1 debacle. That was amazing. But anyway, so Golden Gate Depot was my own private company, sole proprietorship, and when I joined with dad, he didn't want anything to do with plastics or aluminum cars. Everything had to be brass. He said, I didn't want to confuse the customer. And he said, you want to do that? You do it under your own business name. And so that's when Golden Gate Depot started doing plastic cars. Like the P70 was our first project in 2001, 2005, somewhere in there. And I still run them separately. It's just more convenient that way instead of trying to bring it all into under one banner. It just works out financially that way because a plastic project requires a lot of funding up front where the typical brass projects don't. Although that's changed now because now we're doing plastic diesels. And so there's a tooling that we have to buy up front. So, you know, I probably could bring them all together. But there's a philosophy that I kind of believe in, and that is people will spend more money if they're writing two checks than just one. (laughing) - Oh my God. (laughing) - And it seems to work out. So I'll just keep it going, you know, don't fix it if it ain't broke. - Absolutely. (laughing) - I love that. That is quite... - So what is this debacle you mentioned, Scott? - Oh, the debacle? (laughing) - More dirt. Okay, so the debacle of what were we talking about? I'm sorry, I'm 61. (laughing) - You mentioned the J1 debacle or? - You mentioned it. - Okay, so Mr. Lee, Uncle Lee, he was with my dad for many years, under many different builder names, but he was a good builder, and he was spoke English well, so communication was easier. So Mr. Lee was making the J1 when I first went to Korea with dad. And he brought a sample over, and Pennsylvania engines are painted Brunswick Green, which is basically eight parts black, one part green. That gives you a kind of a greenish hue, if you bring it out in the sunlight, but otherwise it's almost black. And so unfortunately, he misunderstood the instructions, and he painted the boiler green, like a forest green, and the tender, the same forest green. And that's it. Oh, no, no, no, you got it wrong. You got a painted Brunswick Green. You know a Brunswick Green. Oh, yeah, Mr. Lee said. Oh, yeah, I know, don't worry. No problem, don't worry, go home. And we were supposed to fly home the next day, and Mr. Lee left, and I said, Dad, don't you think we should just spend an extra day and go over to the factory, and make sure they understand it, because, ah, he understood it, we don't need to. So three weeks, four weeks go by, and 540 J-1s show up in a container. And we opened the first one, the boiler's beautiful Brunswick Green, the cab is Brunswick Green, the tender body is Brunswick Green, the cylinders are bright green. Oh, no. Oh, no. So that's when we hired Ken, who's the local painter guy. And Gary Yosely was our tech who had been working with Dad from the beginning. And we made it like an assembly line where we took the models out of the box, took the chassis out, took the cylinders off the chassis, you don't have to get some water here. Took the cylinders off the chassis so Ken could repaint them, reassemble everything, including all the side rods and the running gear, test them, put them back in the box, then they were ready to ship. It took us about three or four weeks, working five days a week to do all of those J ones. And I said to Dad, from now on, I'm going to test, I'm going to go over there before they put the models in the box and test everyone so we don't have to go through this again. And you agree? And so I did that from, oh, 25 years ago. And I've got a million and a quarter miles ununited and a half a million miles. Oh my gosh. And I'm done. (laughing) You know, I almost knew all the pilots by their first name. Hey, I can fly this part of the, this part of the track. I've been watching you guys. I can say you guys need an effort out, I got it. So that was the turning point and it also improved our quality. So imagine this, you go over there and you got 300 models and you start testing them and you find the same thing wrong with the first 20 models. And so you grab the guy and you say, listen, I found the same thing wrong with 20 of them. I am not a member of your factory. You're not paying me. So I want you to test all of these models for these problems. Here's a list and I'll come back and check. And so I disappear for two or three days and travel around Korea a little bit and then come back and start testing. Okay, now about 75% of the models pass a simple running test, a 25% don't. And then the blemishes, I put a little yellow tape wherever there's a blemish to correct. And then I'll be back in a few more days. And so this process could take a couple of weeks before we had 100% looking good, looking like it could pass the customer's eye is what I call it. I said, you guys don't know the customer's eye. I said, I hear it in my ear when I ship the model and they get something that they don't like, they call me. And I can hear it right now when I look at that blemish on the model. So that's kind of what drove me to do things the way I did. And you know what? They never learn. They just kept making the same mistakes and every project had to go through the same silly process to get them to comply. So once we moved out of Korea into China, it got much better. They listened to me. They understood that, you know, for success, they would have to do this. And so the inspections were much more straightforward. And when I found a problem, they would quickly fix it and solve it. And the interesting thing was, is it was a Chinese factory with a Korean manager, Korean production manager. And it started out as a Korean owned factory in China. And they kind of lost their lease. And the people that work there were disillusioned and they left and I said, go rent your own place and we'll just work with you. And so they found their own building and my Korean production manager came from that Korean company. And I said, just work with me and I'll make sure, you know, we keep working together all this time. And we've been doing that for like, since 2015. So it's almost 10 years. We've been working this way with an independent Chinese factory and a Korean production manager and they all know each other. And a lot of the people in the factory are neighbors and friends and relatives. It's a very, you know, it's a community thing. It's not a slave driving, you know, everybody has to work until their fingers bleed. It's a very, it's a warm environment. It's a family and so it's friendly, yeah. - That's great to hear. - Yeah. So that's where we are today. And when COVID hit, I couldn't go over there. So we set up a lot of Skype, oh, we set up a lot of movies that they would email over and we'd have some Skype conversations. And most of the time my Korean manager is handling all of the little things. And if I see a problem, I just tell him and he deals with them 'cause he can speak Chinese and Korean and English. And so we just get things done remotely, which is a lot easier on life. And I'll continue as long as it stays easy. - That's amazing. That's the side of the industry that we, as modelers and consumers, we don't know. And it's amazing to hear how much goes into making a product and ensuring that quality in the hobby right now. There's a lot of things that folks are, as you said, people don't like when things come out of the box and they don't work perfectly. And there are certain points where products do come out, not from you guys. But there's some that come up from some other folks and they're not very happy about it. So hearing about you working hard to ensure that quality, make sure the product does work out of the box. It's very important to hear as a consumer. It gives a lot of confidence and wanting to buy from you. - Yeah. - It can be quite about my producers and humans. - That's very inspiring. There's some products and some manufacturers in all scales where there's a little bit of a lack of confidence from them or just kind of, I guess we'll see what happens, kind of feeling you get when you might talk to them or just the way it's been going for years now. And so hearing that level of confidence and obviously very consistent product line, just that's really good to hear as a consumer. It's inspiring. - Well, as a small businessman, as a small businessman, anybody knows, if they're in business for themselves, that every morning you wake up unemployed. If you don't make money, then you're out of luck. But you need to focus on your customers and you need to make sure that they don't get disappointed more than less. And so that's what we try to do. And it's hard. I mean, every project's different. Every project has its own little idiosyncrasies. And so maybe what sets us apart is that I tell my production manager's name is Mr. Kwan. I say, oh, the customers are having trouble with the pilots touching the rails and shorting out our steam engine, which has happened in the past. They make the pilots very prototypical and they're just within a millimeter of the track. And if the track isn't even, you're gonna hit the track and it's a brass pilot and it's gonna spark and cause problems. So he understands that. And so he quickly rallies the factory and says, let's remake these pilots. She shows me new drawings and he makes it done and then they send me a bill. And I pay it. And that's just the part of the business that you have to accept. There's costs involved in responding to problems and they're always unexpected and they just happen. And after you've done that about a dozen times, you realize, don't worry about it, just respond. That's good to hear. Now, I actually wanna ask more so on the side of the behind the scenes part for our community. Two questions. One, what is the best way for your customer base if they wanna recommend an idea for something that could be potentially be made? What would be the best way for them to do that? And two, how long does it take for something like that to be designed and put into actual production? I would say the best way is to get on the OGR forum and rally the troops. If a lot of people show a lot of interest and I start getting various emails from people that I know and trust about marketing in the model train business, that'll get my attention first and it'll get my juices flowing to put it up on the website and take reservations. And I don't do that lightly because if you put a lot of stuff up there to reserve, it starts to dilute what you're trying to get a quantity up to get started. So like I have the GP30. GP30 only has 150 reservations. I don't know why people aren't going for it. Maybe they already have them or it's just not that interesting to them but it's not enough to start. And I had polled a lot of people about that and that was a common suggestion, it was a GP30. So we're probably gonna pull that one down and put something else up in its place and see what happens with that. And in the meantime, we have reruns that people want like PAs, FTs, and we have a lot of orders for the FAFB and we're doing the tooling for that right now. And of course, we got the genesis and the chargers. So we have enough to keep the flow going for the factory for the next year and a half or so. Beyond that, we really can't see. And then we never can't. It's just, you know, after people get their model then they wanna order something new and that kind of gives life to the other projects that are out there. And hopefully they're ordering from us instead of from somebody else. - Yeah, the diesels are definitely something I've noticed you guys have been pushing a lot and they're fantastic. I've never been a huge diesel person but seeing models with the fixed pilots and scale wheels and also getting into DCC a little more. Just seeing that side of modeling has just made me appreciate them even more and just the raw accuracy, every, you know, like I think about an SD-40. Like there's, I didn't realize that there was so much different between SD-40s. Like, oh, every SD-40 just looks the same but no, you showed me that there's more to it than just that. And it's just great to see. And everybody I know that has a third rail diesel just loves it. I'm very happy that I've impressed people and made them happy with their hobby. And that's just what we try to do. - Yeah. - It costs money, our models are more expensive and the factory told me anything over 20 road names and paint schemes, you're gonna be paying more for the whole project because the paint costs a lot. You know, gallon of paint is hundreds of dollars for its automotive paint that they use. So in every color is another purchase. So they go through a lot and I have to step up and pay them more to satisfy the whole economics of the project. I also try to standardize the electronics, the wiring, the LED light clusters, try to make it as trouble shooting free as possible. 'Cause in the past, I've just kind of said, here's a wiring diagram. And they would do the worst job putting together the wiring and they didn't know how to make connectors and harnesses and things like that. So we order all that stuff and bulk from a place that we've been ordering from for many years in Hong Kong. And that works out very well. And that's, we try to minimize the amount of work that's involved by standardizing stuff. And then we throw money at the stuff that people notice, which is details and paint schemes and such. - I gotta say, just as someone who owns, who one of my prize engines is a third rail engine, my Baltimore, Ohio Q4B mic, it's so satisfying when you're able to get a model that has that level of quality for something that you're looking for and that specificity that you can't get anywhere but brass or from a company like yours that does those sorts of things. Even with diesels, 'cause you know, again, like you said, or Sid was saying, you know, you think diesel, it's a diesel, it's a big box on wheels. There's so many things that you could get specific that people really care about. And when you get to that clientele that is willing to pay that for that locomotive and you earn their trust, like you've said, you're on the ground level talking with them and figuring out what needs to be done and caring about it, that's one of the most valuable things you can offer a customer and as a satisfied customer, I gotta say, it's well appreciated by your clientele. - Great, great, thank you. - Looking for something different? Need a gift for a fellow rail fan? Well folks, look no further. NPL Customs is your source for all railroading decor, handcrafted, made in the USA and veteran owned. Their products made for rail fans by rail fans. I personally have a set of coasters from them that I absolutely love. Find them on Etsy at NPL Customs and use code MMPodcast at check out to save 10%. NPL Customs, quality since 2017. - The kind of two things. So the first thing is that you mentioned the standardizing of electronics and just the overall product line, which it is very nice when I can, so my side of the hobby is the technical side. I work on electronics and mechanics and I upgrade things and so I'm used to opening models and it is nice when someone asked me something and I'd be like, oh yeah, it's got quiet driver. Oh yeah, everything has a Pittman motor in it. It's nice to be able to just instantly know that 90% of everything is the same inside and I've ordered plenty of products from ERR over the years and now you obviously have the rights and ownership of ERR. And I remember the one, one of the first times I bought the tether that you guys sell. I was like, this is just the harness from inside every third rail engine I've opened pretty much. And so I was like, that's amazing that everything just uses the same thing. And you know, if it's too long for an engine and you just wrap it up and you put it up in the boiler and it's as simple as that. To solve a lot of problems we were having like 25% of the models come back with wiring problems so that we really needed to find a solution for that and it just made a lot of sense. You know, you talked about the quiet drive. So before the quiet drive, we had a gear tower. - Yeah, the tower. - The gear tower and the tower wasn't even a diecast tower. They just folded brass and soldered it together with the gears inside. There was no way to open it. When the gears wore out, you're S.O.L. - Yeah. - So dad wanted to put in the sprocket and tooth belt, the timing belt. And he said, dad, nobody wants a rubber band. (laughing) Rubber band driver, you can't even be laughing at me at the show. (laughing) How wrong I was. - It's a sturdy system, it works. - It does, it does work. - Yeah, those belts are indestructible. We never have anything fail. They just, you know, sometimes the pulley will come loose from the motor shaft and spin and then melt. And yeah, so we sent them another pulley. But the belts are almost indestructible. They're printer, they're the same as printer belts and things like that. - And from this is a question that everyone has probably asked you and it's a kind of a mix of a question and just kind of a, I don't know, an idea. So you have ERR and it's a very standardized line. It works really well for what it is. You know, not only in factory built models but you know, for upgrading things. And I definitely understand it in an OEM product in terms of standardizing things. And, and just being able to make a product, you know, consistently, which that is very nice. I get, I think I know the answer 'cause I understand a little bit of what it takes to make a model and the electronics. Will there ever be a day you think that it changes to something else? For the three routes side, I know on two rail you have ESU which ESU is a fantastic product. I love ESU. - So, you know, the electric railroad story, that's a whole nother story, do we have time for it? - We have as much time for as many stories you wanna tell us 'cause I need more. - Yeah. - So, Howard Hitchcock took over as Lionel's CEO and one of the things that he didn't like was the electric railroad line. I'll take a step back a few years back. - Before Howard, I forget his name. Who's the guy before Howard? He came from-- - Oh, Richard Maddox. He was from Bachman, I believe. - Well, Maddox was early. That was kind of my dad's era. And then the next guy was out of Marvel. Marvel productions. - Oh, I don't remember his name. - I know, yeah, I know you're telling him. - Okay, so I'm sure many of you know that are listening to this. So, he came in and the first thing he wanted to do was to make sure that everybody was using the Lionel Electronics as an OEM and doing it properly. So, he got models from K-Line, Weaver, Sunset, Atlas. And he took 'em apart to see what electronics they had inside. And at the time, I think we were using the Train America Studios and regular Lionel components. And K-Line got caught using ripped off circuit boards that they had copied and put their own name on. And everybody else was just using the Train America Studios stuff. So, he also went after John Zorniki at Electric Railroad. He saw his ad or something for the mini commanders and he sent him a cease and desist letter. And so, John called up Calabris, was that his name? - Yeah, yes. - And John called up Calabris. I'm not violating any of your patents. I have my own patents and they're all independent and they've already been checked by lawyers. If you'd like me to come meet with you, be happy to. So, he went to Detroit to meet with Calabris. Calabris was so impressed with John and his skill that he hired him as their chief engineer. And then he bought Electric Railroad from him. And we started using Electric Railroad prior to that, I guess. And it worked great. John was a local, he was in Santa Clara, we were in Campbell. And he'd come over and say, "Hey, can I borrow a train? "I wanna put this in it." And so, he'd grab an engine and come back and test it on our layout and that's how we got to know each other. And now John was on the inside of Lionel and doing a great job. He got legacy going in six months. He had legacy working after they had been working on it for, I don't know, five, six years. And so, they were very impressed with him. But over time, then Calabris left and then Howard came in and Howard, I don't think liked the idea of Electric Railroad. He seemed like it was a competing product. And it was kind of a pain in the neck because people needed service and shipping and problems and everything was falling online else, shoulders. And so, he announced at a York show that he was gonna scuttle it. And people got very angry and upset. - I remember. - And so, John came to me and he said, "Hey, you want me to talk to Howard "about you taking over Electric Railroad from them "to solve this problem?" And I saw it as an opportunity to make sure that I could still make the circuit boards for our models because I knew factories need minimums and we probably weren't gonna be able to satisfy the minimum quantity of electric railroad. So, Howard and I had a phone conversation. I said, "Listen, you're not gonna hear any complaints. "You're not gonna have any hassle. "All you're gonna hear from me is, "once a quarter, you're gonna get a royalty check. "And I'll take care of all the manufacturing "and dealing with all that." And he said, "Okay." So, we signed a contract and since 2018, I've been licensed worldwide to produce the Electric Railroad equipment for us and Atlas, who's not purchasing it anymore. And for retail. - Yeah. - And it works out great. People love the simplicity. - It is. - And we love the fact that it's very robust. - Yeah. - It's very hard to break. And the cruise control function works fantastic. - Yeah. - The Lionel sounds, even though they're the same old sounds from 10, 15 years ago, they're still great sounds. - Yeah. - They're maybe not every diesel or every steam engine whistle. - Yeah. - But it's enough to satisfy most people. So, we are gonna continue the Electric Railroad until we stop making trains. - Is there any plan or, actually I guess in terms of you having the rights to, is there any way to update the sounds or add anything more to that? Or is it just kind of stick? - I'm afraid not. - Yeah. - That technology is gone. - Yeah. - They don't have anybody, I think, to do that anymore. Not with the older. - The older stuff. - Real sounds. - Yeah. - And I don't know what, I don't even know if they're doing it with their new products. They might just be mixed. - They are. - They've gone out and recorded new stuff, but they've, their previous generation of legacy used a very similar rail sounds light-based sound car, but they've moved on to this whole all-in-one board that goes in the engine for like a diesel. And then the steamer has a separate board, but it's kind of moved on to something else. And there's been some mixed results with them recording whistles. All the background sounds and bells and things like that have stayed pretty true and sound right. Some of the whistles have been a little questionable. But yeah, that's just, I'm kind of asking this more for the sake of people, 'cause I see these questions all the time and I see them on the forums and in the Discord servers. - Well, I'll tell everyone the truth. The radio chip is no longer being produced in the world. And so we were able to acquire enough radio boards to satisfy about five to seven years of production. And after that, the question is, does Lionel wanna start selling us their all-in-one board? Maybe dumb down a little bit because they don't like to sell us their best technology. I don't blame them or we just stop. Five to seven years when you're 61 is a ways off. - Yeah, this is-- - It's a lifetime. - Something that Johnny and myself have expressed a lot of interest in is a product from Soundtracks. It's called Blue Nami. It's a kind of an all-in-one board that has the sounds built into it and the controls built into it. It's, I guess, limited in the sense that there's basically two ways to control it. You either use a standard DCC control system or you use your phone in an app. To some, that might be a bit annoying for myself personally and a lot of others. It's not really been a burden 'cause I guess, at least for me, the pros of it outweigh the cons. You get the ability to customize the sounds with whatever's on the board already to your liking a lot. And it's a very small footprint. This product could easily be standardized into a bracket and a wiring harness because it's very simple. Anybody can put this into a model. - Well, as time goes on and it becomes obvious and necessary to make a change, we will. We just don't know what that will be in five to seven years. It may be something like that with a TMCC module of some kind or a new agreement with Lionel to use whatever they're doing. I'm not really worried. We got quite a ways to go where we get there. - That's good to hear that you guys are open to new options though in the future that you're still thinking ahead. - Yeah, sure. - That's a hard one to hear. - I've got a lot of stock of ERR stuff now though. - Yeah. - I built a lot of it up front so that we wouldn't have any issues. One of the worst things in manufacturing is to run out of something. You saw it happen in the car industry when they ran out of chips and they could finish their automobiles. That's a real pain. So I want to make sure that the long lead items I have in stock ready to go when we're ready for production. But we'll see what happens. - Yeah, it's definitely good to hear that you have a plan again. It's nice to hear that you're confident in your plan and that it seems to be going as planned even though there's always hiccups along the way. You have a goal and you have a road map to where you want to go. And during this week's topic, you can join in on the conversation too on a community discret server. We have a lot of different discussion channels ranging from showing off your collections, discussing the latest and greatest in the industry, a buy and sell form, and even a voice channel you can hop on, call and talk trains with us late until the night. We're a little over 300 strong and we'll love to have you join us too. Check out the invite link to our community disc work down in the show notes, reading knowledge of the rules and introduce yourself and start chatting. We have a great team of moderators who make sure all are welcome and respected. But what are you waiting for? Come on down and join us in on the fun. Now let's talk some trains. - This is another question that you probably get asked all the time and I know the answer 'cause you've said it in some places but everybody on our Discord server and other places ask us all the time, will there ever be steam after this Allegheny in this H10? - Well, the Allegheny is probably not gonna happen. Probably not gonna happen. Just too expensive, not enough orders. It just doesn't make any sense. I get the question from people, is there gonna, I already have your first run Allegheny, is this one gonna be that much better? - Yeah. - And the answer is not really because the first one was really, really good. - Yeah. - And it's just gonna be more expensive. - Yeah. (laughing) - And that's the problem with brass. It is extremely expensive to build stuff now in brass and back in the day when dad was competing with the up and coming plastic models, it was about the same cost as you looked at tooling and all the things you have to do with a plastic model or a hybrid model and then a brass model doesn't have any upfront cost. It's mostly sketched brass and soldering and manual labor. So the cost of doing brass or plastic was almost the same and so there was no need for us to go in that direction. To tell you the truth, I'm okay with doing plastic cars but when you start doing thousands and thousands of powered things with electronics and lights and you know, oh my gosh, you make one mistake, you're sunk. - Yeah. (laughing) - You know, it's bad enough when we make these diesels and we got lots of lights on them. - Yeah. So I don't know if there's gonna be any more steam engines in the future for us in the near term anyway. - I must say, even if there isn't, that pretty much every steam engine I've ever seen from third rail is just extraordinary. You know, that H10 that you guys are making right now is one of the most detailed and just wild looking engines I've seen 'cause it's such a small model but it has a lot packed in, the one is that. - A lot of detail. - Yeah, the one has that green boiler. The tender is like huge compared to the engine. - Yeah. - It's just, it's very interesting. I know it's been in the works for a very long time and it's probably making you happy that it's finally coming to an end in the sense of it getting produced. - Yeah. - But the truth is I'm only able to sell a 80 to 90 of them. - Yeah. - And we're in the diesels, we're in the three to 500 range. And so they take about the same amount of time. And so if you're looking at, you know, a project that makes a very little profit versus a project that consists by your overhead needs. You know, we pay rent, we have employees, things come up, it's always something and you gotta have the cash flow to keep going. And if you're stalled out on a bunch of projects that don't make any money, your business will just die. - That's right. - So we're just following, we're just following what works. And right now, brass projects don't work very well. - I totally understand that. - Yeah. - I talk about that with people whenever they ask. I obviously don't know the ins and outs as much, but I understand I'm in school for engineering and I understand that there's a lot that goes into it. And it doesn't-- - Yeah, we go through a standard process. I have a design team that takes two to three months to finish a design. And then it goes into tooling, which takes another month or two. Unless it's a brass project and it's not, there's no tooling, they do some castings tooling and make a lost wax casting. And then there's a three to four months of production. So you're looking at eight to 12 months of production on any project. And while you're working on a project that doesn't satisfy your overhead needs, you're losing money. And when you're working on a project that will, then when it finally comes out, you'll be able to cash up and then have money to pay the factories again. 'Cause it's just the money comes in, the money goes out. And if a little bit can fall into my pocket in the meantime, that's a good thing. But money comes in, money goes out, and you just gotta make sure not too much money goes out. - Yeah, if there's a new project. - Oh, I was gonna say, I always appreciate when we're able to talk with people like you, Scott, about this sort of thing. 'Cause I feel like, not everybody really understands the amount of work that goes into producing these things, the amount of R and D and overhead. And like you said, employees, you have to plan for the future, you have to plan for things to come up. The amount of stuff that goes into one of these, customers say, oh, why can't we have this? Why can't they make this? How is it, there's so much that goes into it that people don't always consider. So to be able to hear this is, I think it's very good for the community overall. 'Cause you can be much more empathetic and appreciative when a company does do something really well. Like as a New York Central fan, those H10s, that's a fantastic thing. And if that's the last steam engine that ever gets done, I'm fine with it. That's a beautiful thing. And people need to appreciate the realities of the industry and everything. So it's good to hear this sort of thing. - I mean, I wish I could announce a steam engine to get 300 orders again, like I used to. - It's not the way. - It just doesn't happen. - It's not the climate, I get it. - It just doesn't happen. - The only, the only thing, the only engine that I hear people asking about, I think I've heard from our group of friends, like people asked us five times within the last week is they're always asking about those Norfolk and Western mollies. (laughs) They're always asking about those mollies, which I-- - I announced a rerun. - Yep. - I announced a rerun, I got 17 orders. And you never get rerun orders in two rail because the guy's already got it and there's no new guys. So it's only gonna be three rail orders that are gonna be in the rerun. And, but diesels are different 'cause you can run many different road names again. - Yep. - And people who could only afford to buy two or three diesels the first time around. Well, I want to get a Northern Pacific this time and a Texas and I want to do this and I want to do that. So the diesels have a second life after the first run with the steam engines they don't. It's the one and done thing. - Yeah. - And we did a lot of them. I mean, we were doing 12 to 15 projects a year. - Wow. - I couldn't believe it. And we can maybe do about six now, five to six a year, including cars and diesels. And that's a full-time thing. I mean, I'm basically every morning checking my messages with Mr. Kwan and answering questions and, you know, sending stuff off to Jonathan for checking and design and some other people that I work with occasionally. And it's, you know, it's a daily thing. It doesn't stop on weekends or holidays. It's just a daily thing. And it's fine. You know, I got a new perspective when I joined the Model Airplane Club because some of the guys there retired a little bit early and they're bored. And I thought, oh, that's what happens when you retire. (laughing) I better not retire. I'm being perfectly honest with you. You can see it in my face. The people who are listening can't when they hear the podcast. But the early retirement, what are you gonna play golf every day? (laughing) How many walks on the beach can you do before you get bored? And I've got different stuff going on every day that, you know, in the business, problems I have to solve, new ideas. And so it's a good thing. Plus, my brother's six years older than me and he's much more active, business-wise than I am. He's constantly busy doing stuff. And I met with him the other day and I said, you know, you're real inspiration. I can see myself six years down the road, still not retired. (laughing) You guys aren't there yet. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Not quite. (laughing) You will be. (laughing) What's the old how to live with you? It happens really quick, believe me. If you enjoy the work you do, you never work a day in your life. Yeah, I can't say I enjoy every minute of my life. (laughing) But it's not bad. And the joy it gives other people the feedback I get, that's, that makes-- It's the best we can help for in life. Believe us. Absolutely. Guys, did you have anything else we wanted to touch on here? I mean, we've gotten some fantastic stuff to follow. I have a bit of a philosophical question for Scott to wrap up if we don't have anything else. But Johnny said anything else or, Scott, anything else you wanted to discuss while we still have you? I think I touched on most things. Yeah. I'm good. I'm pretty content. Yeah, I think I'm, I'm pretty good. I just want to say, you know, thank you for all these stories. And it's just, it's great to hear this. I need to write a book, I think. You should, and absolutely, you should. You should, like, it's not very often that we have, you know, a full story of a, of a brand because it's, you know, it's always been your all's brand. It's never been anyone else's and everything you've told us, it's everything from the manufacturing to here in the USA is it's all just like one big family. It's not like this, you know, huge corporate, you know, disconnects-- It's not an ivory tower. Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's just amazing to hear this and that there's, you know, still, still a, a brand in modeling that's not just become huge, which it's great to have a huge company. At the same time, you know, a huge company can't do all the, the niche stuff that you do. And so it's, it's just awesome. True. It's good to have a, to hear a brand and to know the face behind it. Exactly. That's, that's something that is so hard to get nowadays and then the industry. And you used to have hair. Once I got started in it, it started falling out. Well, maybe I was pulling it out. I'm not sure. Well, yeah, just to kind of pair of wits. It's, it's got, thank you so much for joining us, joining us tonight. Well, you guys are very welcome. Many time. Well, hopefully we have any questions that you want to follow up on. You can email me, you know that. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Of course, of course. Well, we'll have to have you back on for more stories. Cause of this episode can encompass. Where do you guys, uh, where, where, what part of the country are you from? I am from Bethesda, Maryland. Oh, I'm from Chantilly, Virginia. So pretty close to Sid there too. Mm hmm. Cool. From West Chicago, Illinois. Oh, wow. So we're representing all, all corners. Yeah, all across, very cool states. No, I've been a California boy most of my life. I grew up on Long Island. Oh. We moved out here when I was five. Oh, wow. I should say I was born on Long Island. I grew up out here. And, um, so it's very easy to get to Asia from here. It only takes about 10 hours to get to Seoul. Mm hmm. And about eight hours to come back because of the prevailing winds. And it's relatively inexpensive. And it's a great place to visit. If you guys get a chance to go to Seoul, go for it. It's really, uh, really a neat place. It's very clean, very modern. People are very friendly. It's very nice and the food. I love Korean food. And the place we, uh, we were at in China is western, uh, is eastern China, Qingdao. And that has a lot of Korean history because it's so close to Seoul. It's just across the Yellow Sea. And, uh, uh, they used to go by, by boat. They'd leave at night, come and arrive in the morning. And, uh, so most of the street, the signs, like the restaurants and things, a lot of Korean restaurants, the signs on top are in Korean and below are in Chinese. And it's, uh, it was a very international friendly place. I've always wanted to do an Asian tour. And the food is, food's great. Uh, John and I then kind of talking about doing an extra tour to Asia. Oh, I wish I could have gone, um, you know, back in the 80s and 90s to China and see, seeing a steam. Like you were talking about Scott seeing. Oh, yeah. 2000s too. Sorry, uh, I'm sad I got to miss that, but, uh, boy. Yeah, it sounds like an amazing place. I got to go check it out at some point. Yeah, even, you know, if you get a chance to just go to Shanghai, it's just an amazing city walking at night, uh, under these towering, towering, uh, skyscrapers, just unbelievable architecture, just the lighting and just, it's a, it's just crazy modern place. It kind of looks like, uh, uh, Blade Runner, you know, the newer, good reference. Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's just amazing stuff around the world. Go for it, guys. Travel while you're down. Okay. John, you want to take us home with your, uh, your questions? Yeah, so I just kind of wanted to just pick your brain on a philosophical kind of question about brass and everything since you've been in the industry so long. Um, what, what do you really think? Where did the desire for your product come from over time? Like you said, when the K5 was first done with your dad and people were like, what would do it buy that? Um, and then to now where we're talking about, you know, we're lauding these beautiful models you've made. Um, where do you think that desire evolved from? From, you know, toy Lionel into being this, you know, fantastic industry of three-rail scale. Where do you think it kind of came from? I think customers just got smarter and smarter and, and, and knew what they wanted. And they saw the difference from the first generation to the second generation of models, you know, like fixed pilots and scale, scale wheels. And there's guys that take our two rail models and proto 48 them all the time. Because they just got to have the scale track to go with the trains. A lot. And, uh, it's just a desire for realism, I believe. I think that's where it comes from. And it's people, you know, the first line I'll train that you ever saw, it's like, wow, look at that thing. And it didn't ever exist. You know, it was just an amazing thing. And then, well, it should have this. It should have that. And, and all of the, all of the manufacturers followed down that path. Absolutely. Because their customers dragged them. Yeah, 100%. You know. And so we need to differentiate ourselves from the rest of the market and be more scale. You know, we, we, I would post everything on the three R scale forum on the OGR forum, the three R scale listing, because that was our, that was our market. And that's why we put two rail pilots and with the three rail models and urge people to, you know, go in that direction. And that's where it's coming from. It's people telling me what to do. And then me responding. That's great. That's great. I like that bit about the customer getting smarter and smarter. That makes me feel good. You guys are the smartest. You really want to be smart. Order more. That's right. Robert Golden. Chinese before too long. Oh man. That was a fantastic show. Thank you again so much, Scott, for being here with us. Hey guys, it was nice meeting you all. Yes, for sure. We have to have you back again soon. Yes. If you're ever in the Bay Area, give me a buzz. We'll go flying. Love it. All right. Yes, indeed. So we're going to run through this. That's a deal. Some of our amazing community. We'd like to take a moment and shout out the fantastic people who have boosted the server and help us keep the lights on here at the miniature models podcast. We got Tim's Trains, Blue Comet Fan 833, Matty Sea Trains, Knute 1969. Commodore Ghost Ninja, Bill B of the OMNS Railway. The Rambles. That's our good Bud Tony, SDIV Tim. Hard work pays off. Dashing Dan's Trains. Every day is life and SD70 Trains Fan. We really appreciate you guys. It is you who inspire us to keep the show going and we make this show for all of you. Tonight was a fantastic show. I see our stop is coming up here. So guys, if you'd like to get more of us off the air, where can folks find you? Scott, where can folks find your fantastic company and learn about all your products? Okay. So to find a third rail, you need to locate San Ramon on the map. We are in the East Bay, just north of Dublin along the 680 freeway. And we're in just a little very non, we're in a very discreet office condo with just a small door, a one-sided and a roll-up door on the other. But we have a 3,000 square foot warehouse and a test area in the back and a small office in the front. And you really need to call us to find it because we don't advertise where we are because we don't want anybody ripping us off. [Laughter] And yeah, I'd be happy to give anybody a one-on-one tour. Just give us some heads up when you're going to come. I don't live very far from the office by design and be happy to do that. That's fantastic. I wouldn't love it to be able to do it. Maybe more goodbye in the lunch. [Laughter] I love sushi. Hey, it makes two of us. Absolutely. And working like if people want to check out your products and everything, do you guys some social media accounts you want to pitch? We do have a Facebook page for Sunset Models, which is being monitored by a nice young man, Jay Escamilla, who really loved my dad's old collection. And he would buy them one by one and put DCC in them and sell them. And now he is getting into the train business big time. He took over the inventory for the hobby shop that closed around here. Hobby's unlimited. Has closed. And he ended up buying the entire inventory of model train stuff. So his business name is Third and Townsend. And he keeps our website going and alerts me when there's too many questions, not being answered on the Facebook page. I find the same people on the Facebook page as they do on the OGR form or by email. So to me, it's a little bit redundant. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. Excellent. Sid, where can folks find you, sir? You can find me on YouTube. My YouTube channel is Sid's Trains. You can also find me on Instagram under Sydney's Trains. And then you can also find me on the Miniature Models podcast, a Discord server under my Discord account, which is also Sid's Trains. Absolutely fantastic. Mr. Johnny, where can folks find you, sir? You can find me on YouTube at Audumus where I am always putting little updates about my collection. I don't upload there as nearly as much as my Instagram, which is Audumus_Trains, and you can find me on Facebook at the same name as well. I tend to post a lot more photos of my layout, my projects, and things that I'm working on. In fact, today I posted a picture of my entire SP freight roster to show off my addiction. If you'd like to find me on the Miniature Models podcast community server, where I'm always answering your questions, making comments, and making a fool of myself with a voice chat. If you want to join our community and be an active member, that is the best way to do it. It's absolutely free, and we love to see the community grow. How about you, John? It's a fantastic pitch there, sir. You can find me on YouTube at Retro Makado, and on Instagram at Retro Makado96, where you can check out that beautiful third rail Q4B I was just talking about. You can check me out as well on the Miniature Models podcast Discord server, where I'm with my buddies Johnny, Sid, and the Matt's. We are always having a good time in there. If you're not joined yet, definitely check out our show notes below. We definitely want to have you guys there. It's a great time, and you can find our friends, the Matt's, who were not able to join us this evening. You can find Matt Rochford at WC model railroad on Facebook, Instagram, and YouTube, and our buddy Matt Z at MatTrainLover9943 on YouTube, and Matt's hobbies on Instagram. I think that covers just about everything, guys. Anything else I forgot about? They share buying us rounds of E7s from Scott, right, John? Yeah, I thought you were doing that. I'll take B&O, please. Always more B&O. We're actually in production, which means you got to go on standby, but people drop out all the time, you know, life gets in the way, and we always contact standby list people and try to sell them with what we have left. Well, I'm excited for mine, very, very excitedly. I'll wait to see him. Guys, thank you so much, and that was a great show. We really appreciate y'all being here, as always, and hope y'all have a fantastic night. Take care. [Music]
