AMDG: A Jesuit Podcast

Celebrate Ignatius' Feast by Celebrating Jesuit History

Today, July 31, we celebrate the Feast of St. Ignatius of Loyola. Happy feast day! We'll wager a guess that if you’re a listener of this podcast, then today’s saint needs no introduction. You know about the cannonball, the pilgrimage, the Spiritual Exercises and the founding of the Society of Jesus. Ignatius’ story, told year after year, might even begin to feel a bit dry. That’s why we're excited about today’s interview. Our guest takes a fresh approach to this well-known history. We’re looking at the story of Ignatius and the Jesuits not from a chronological perspective but from a thematic one. Claudio Ferlan is an Italian historian and was a fellow at Boston College’s Institute for Advanced Jesuit Studies. His time at BC has led to the publication of a new book titled “The Jesuits: A Thematic History.” What are these themes? We explore the historical development and importance of the Ignatian identity, of the role of mission work in the Society, of the Jesuit’s unique way of proceeding and of the inevitable conflicts that Jesuits have found themselves engaged in. We think you’ll find this to be a brisk, fascinating tour of Jesuit history. And if you do like this conversation or just have an interest in Jesuit history, then pick up a copy of “The Jesuits: A Thematic History” here: https://jesuitsources.bc.edu/the-jesuits-a-thematic-history/

Duration:: 42m
Broadcast on:: 31 Jul 2024
Audio Format:: mp3

From the Jesuit Media Lab, this is AMDG, and I'm Eric Clayton. Today, July 31st, we celebrate the Feast of St. Ignatius of Loyola. So, happy feast day. I'll wager a guess that if you're a listener of this podcast, then today's saint needs no introduction. You know about the cannonball, the pilgrimage, the spiritual exercises, and the founding of the Society of Jesus. Ignatius' story, told year after year, might even begin to feel a bit dry. That's why I'm excited about today's interview. Our guest takes a fresh approach to this well-known history. We're looking at the story of Ignatius and the Jesuits, not from a chronological perspective, but from a thematic one. Claudio Ferlan is an Italian historian and was a fellow at Boston College's Institute for Advanced Jesuit Studies. Ignatius' time at BC has led to the publication of a new book titled The Jesuits, A Thematic History. What are these themes? Well, we explore the historical development and importance of the Ignatian identity, of the role of mission work in the society, of the Jesuits' unique way of proceeding, and of the inevitable conflicts that Jesuits have found themselves engaged in. I think you'll find this to be a brisk, fascinating tour of Jesuit history. And if you do like this conversation, or just have an interest in Jesuit history in general, then pick up a copy of The Jesuits, A Thematic History, at the link in the show description. Once again, happy feast day of Saint Nations of Loyola, and now here's Claudio Ferlan. Claudio Ferlan, welcome to AMDG. We're so glad you're with us today to talk about your new book, The Jesuits, A Thematic History. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much for having me. You know, history for me, before being a job is a great patient. So any opportunity I have to talk about history, especially for an audience, I don't know yet. For me, it's joy, it's fun, even. That's great, because I think we need passion to really bring history to life. So I'm glad that you're going to do a little bit of that today for us. So to begin, let's start by talking about your book. Tell us about it. Why do you think this book is necessary, and ultimately, who were you writing it for? Along with my work as a researcher, I'm also involved in public history. Basically, I try to talk about history through as much media as possible. I believe that the professional historian, like I am, can do awesome things by approaching different audience than the one made of specialists, historians. We can tell history in a way that's both professional and entertaining. It's not a must, we are not obliged to do that, of course. But for me, it's genuinely fun, it's what I am. And part of my written work as a historian and as a writer aims to make history accessible to anyone curious about it. You know, I'm Italian, and I have been studying Jesuits even before the demo of my PhD. It's more than 20 years. And when in 2013, the cardinal selected the first Jesuits open history, my Italian editor asked me to write a history of the Society of Jesus starting from its origins. And I wrote that book, published in 2015 and translated into Brazilian Portuguese in 2018. In writing the Jesuits in Italian, I followed a chronological approach. From the beginnings of the Society of Jesus, filmed 1540, to the election of Pope Francis. And to tell this story, I used mainly European examples, in case studies, to resonate with Italian readers. And this new book, the Jesuits' A Thematic, Not Chronological History, takes a completely different approach. As supported by extensive research in Jesuit studies, I am not able to do public history if I don't go to the archives and if I do not read the sources. And this book is the result of a visiting semester I spent at the Institute for Advanced Jesuits Studies at Boston College in 2019. I suppose that my predilection for synthetic work gave Casey Boomey, now my friend and director of the Institute of Advanced Jesuits Studies. The idea of suggesting that I write a new history of the Society of Jesus aimed above scholars and curious readers. I loved the idea and started working on the new book. I think that Thematic approach can offer fresh insights into this history. And more importantly, I hope that this perspective can stimulate new research, because we always need new research. And throughout the book, you even highlight moments or places where more research could be helpful. And you're right that the book really does read as a really accessible introduction to the Society of Jesus, but in a way that feels relevant to anybody. You don't have to be a scholar, you don't have to be a Jesuit. It's just if you have some touchstone with the Jesuits, this is a good book for you. So you've already highlighted the fact that the book takes a thematic approach as opposed to a chronological approach. And so I want to get into what those themes are. You've chosen four. So maybe you can tell us what those four themes are. And more importantly, why you chose them. So thank you for this question, because it allows me to explain the very core of my book. It is different from other synthesis histories we have about the Society of Jesus, but in general, it is also different from my earlier Italian and Brazilian work, because it follows that Thematic Notochronological approach, as we already said. You know, the Jesuits have a active in so many areas of social and religious life in culture and history to summarize. And they have been protagonists throughout the centuries. And in my opinion, have been continuously. So even though the Society of Jesus was suppressed in 7073 and restored in 1814. But even in those 40 years during which according to the canon law, the Jesuits did not exist. K, in fact, existed and worked. This continuity is fundamental. And in my opinion, reasoning by themes instead of centuries, adds to understand it. What are these themes, you ask? The first one is identity. Identity is built around the charisma of the inaccuracies of Loyola and the spiritual exercises. But it is also built around the fundamental documents, the constitution, the arts of the general congregation, the correspondence, the theological discussions. Many former Jesuits kept this identity alive in the period of the suppression, like I said. The second one, missions. The missions are grounded in the fourth world of special obedience to the Pope. The Jesuits from the beginning gave availability to go wherever the Pope wanted to send them. And they did indeed go wherever the Pope sent them. To every part of the world, leaving a price less testimonies. Third, our way of proceeding. This is an expression we owe to the one of the first Jesuits, Haroni Monalal, and what is meant but our way of proceeding. I summarize it by listing the fundamental presences of the Jesuits in the world in which they lived and lived today, the schools, the cities. For example, the life in the perishes, the theater, the action of the Marian congregation, the sadalities, the encounter with the feminine universe, the social apostolate. The fourth and the last theme is conflict. The life of the Society of Jesus has not been easy and has developed through internal contrast within the Society, conflicts with political powers, and also tensions with the Church and the ODC. Thank you. So, Ignatian identity, the missions, the way of proceeding in these conflicts. And I like how you started that answer. I think it's really helpful to remember that the suppression of the Society, Jesuits tactically ceased to exist, but obviously these men continue to live. And what did they do during that time period? And you do that beautifully throughout the book of helping us to kind of see those that kind of quote unquote gap year or gap, you know, a couple of years there. So as you were going through this history with this lens, this thematic lens, I'm wondering what most surprised you as a historian? Well, there are indeed some surprising elements. For example, the variety of the Jesuits fields of action through how they are history. Some we have listed, but there are so many from seismology to cooking, from the development of periodical press to sports, from music to diplomacy. For many fields of knowledge of social life, of theological thinking, there are a lot of surprising things. And this very rich set of activities required the skills that were also surprising in the quality they had. The ability to connect with widely diverse cultural, social and political realities. The ability to adapt to the most varied living condition, climate, for example, from the frost of the Alaska to the torrid heat of equatorial Africa. And then also social environment, the color of Chinese and Perils, is like the villages in the Andean region. We have Jesuits everywhere. And these things maybe are quite well known, maybe not. But we must not stop being surprised. Surprised is relevant for historians. Yeah, I like that. I like this kind of instruction to think about what will surprise us about Jesuits in surprising places, like allowing ourselves to be surprised, even as readers. I think that that disposition of curiosity is so important. Well, I mean, and to that exact point, you know, a few of these ideas really caught my attention as I was reading your book. So I'm wondering if you might speak to one or two of them. The first, and I had not heard this topic, I am, of course, not a historian, but this idea of negotiated obedience. Obedience obviously is one of the vowels that a Jesuit takes. So what is negotiated obedience? And why has it been important to the development of the Society of Jesus? Oh, yeah, oh, yeah, first, first of all, I'm grateful to people who are in my book because you gave me your time, time is precious. So thank you for reading my book about the negotiated obedience. When I told you that I'm unable to write for dissemination without doing research, I was referring to developments of toads of my toads, such as the one I'm going to tell you about, negotiated obedience. Several years ago, with a colleague and friend in Italy, Fernando Fieri, we organized a workshop on Jesuits and obedience. We collected some colleagues and friends from many parts of just Europe, not US. And this workshop became a book. In those days, we had an interesting discussion, and we realized how much the topic of Jesuits obedience needed to be better analyzed. Ignatius of Loyola emphasized the need for the Jesuits to live a spiritual experience inspired by reality and capable of developing structure and being translated into action through a preliminary mediation of prayer and examination of conscience. He called this attitude discernment and asked the Jesuits to be contemplative in action. You know, to be contemplative in action means also that regarding obedience, before being, before being your superior could ask you for strange things, it is legitimate to discern and to discuss. It is allowed to negotiate, and this way of thinking started with Ignatius himself. And this course of action stimulates the evolution of a total without attracting from Yeraki. It is unique, I think, in the history of the Church. That's why it's fundamental in the development of Jesuits' identity. There is obedience, there is discussion about obedience, and again, there is a new obedience. And that certainly has played out in my own encounters with Jesuits, right? Because the Jesuits' superior wants to put the Jesuits in a place where that individual is going to be most successful both personally but also for the common good. And so this inclination to discuss and of course discern, you know, where is God leading you? What are your skills? You know, it adds, I think, a really helpful nuance to this vow of obedience. That sounds a little, maybe odd, to the modern ear, you know, the idea I would obey someone else without question. And so this idea, I thought it was really helpful, the term negotiated, obedience. I appreciate that. You know, in the second part of your book, right, you were talking about the theme of missionary work, maybe being missioned. And Jesuits are often thought of as missionaries. But as you noted, and this was, again, a really helpful section of the book, you know, many Jesuits thought so much of themselves as being missionaries, you know, these guys would enter to be a missionary that they were then quite disappointed when they were not sent, you know, overseas or abroad. So I wanted to talk about the importance of framing at that time, right, Europe, which was the Jesuits' backyard, as quote-unquote, "missioned territory," you know, in those first hundred or so, a couple hundred years of the society. And let me talk about how this idea, like, why was it necessary to convince Jesuits that they could go and live out an authentic Jesuit life right there and, you know, again, quote-unquote at home? Yeah. And also to do a link with the previous question, it is a matter of obedience often this one. And we have to go to the very beginning of the history of the Society of Jesus. Because precisely mentioning the fourth world, that availability to go anywhere in the world, we mentioned earlier, Catholics identified the Jesuits early on as the missionaries par excellence starting from the beginning of the society. And many young men aspire to join the society just to become missionaries. And this is true, even in recent times, think that the young Horgemario Bergoglio himself wanted to become a Jesuit to go to Japan. And in an interview, he stated that he wanted to be a Jesuit to go to Japan. Then the story went differently, but this was the very beginning. And the Jesuits of the 16th century had many fields of interest in which to act, not just mission. So that the secretary of finances and later of other generals, it was a very clever man, Juan Antonio de Polanco, decided that it was possible to answer mission candidates by saying that there was plenty of work in Europe. Every modern Europe was a mission field. For example, and I refer to sources I know, in Austria or in Lithuania, there were many villages where there was still a pagan religion. In many other areas, there were Protestants. And Jesuits could be missionaries at home, in the backyard, Indians were everywhere. But this way of thinking did not convince all candidates, but it convinced many. It really gets to that question of indifference in the Jesuit tradition. Are you holding tightly to this mythic idea of going abroad and seeing something new and exotic, perhaps? Or are you really desiring as we all must to live out what God invites you to do no matter where it is? I want to also highlight what you said a number of times now, and I want to make sure listeners know the fourth vow is unique to the Jesuits, of course, and it often manifests itself as this missionary work, being sent to the greatest need of the church. But the vow itself is actually the kind of strict obedience to the pope, because Ignatius believed the pope is going to know where the greatest needs of the church and the people of God are. And so that vow continues to today, this fourth vow. And again, as you detail in your history, I think we'll get to this in a little bit, but this vow of responding obediently to the pope comes into conflict when the Jesuits themselves disagree with the pope. But we'll get to that. We'll get to that, because I want to ask, first, back to this question of identity. You've done all this research. So what do you think is the most consequential piece of the Ignatian identity, particularly again, as you're thinking about that first section of your book? May I mention two? The first one is the spiritual exercises. You know, the spiritual exercises are a unique in the history of literature, of food, of philosophy, of theology in history. It's a unique in history, because they are a living text, born not to be read, but to be precisely lived, experienced. And the spiritual exercises and Jesuit identity are, in my opinion, intimately linked and inseparable. And we know this on studying the Jesuits since the very beginning, even before the foundation of the Society of Jesus, studying the biography of Ignatius, but also studying the Jesuits in 2024. And the second one is the use of Ignatian documents, not just spiritual exercises. And in general, of documents produced by early Jesuits to revive Jesuits' thinking and action after the restoration of 1814. I mean, to defining continuity with their history, the new way of acting in the world. The Jesuits of the 19th century set out to seriously study their history and their own sources. It's a ready way to spot, which we should always keep in mind to understand the Society of Jesus. They should. This path can lead you down the wrong path, but history and documents are essential for understanding reality. Yeah. And again, like that was so key when the Jesuits are restored, you know, kind of come back to life. But also after Vatican II, right, there's this invitation to all religious orders to return to their sources, kind of what gives your carerism life. So we've already talked a little bit about some of the tensions, the creative tensions within Jesuit life. I'm wondering if you can speak to the paradoxes inherent in the so-called Jesuit way of proceeding. How have Jesuits reconciled these tensions? And again, ultimately, why does it matter to the history, the development of the society? This is a central issues. A central issue is not just for Jesuits, maybe for the life of everyone. Because points to the dialectic between norm and practice. We were talking earlier about the negotiated obedience and a very interesting concept in theory, but it hasn't always been applied. It's not so easy to apply a beautiful theoretical concept in your everyday life. And the same goes for what I just said about history. The Jesuits of the 19th century didn't always take their charism into account. They made the choices that did not go along with it. It must be said in short that solution to tensions are not always found. Heronimo Nadal had a great talent for synthesis and coined the expression, you know, our way of proceeding, describing it as follows, to act with heart, spirit, and practice. An issue that has caused great debate, much of it outside the society of Jesus as well, is that concerning, for example, the vow of poverty. How did the Jesuits reconcile these tensions between norm and practice, you ask? And I think that we have an open answer, the need and the ability to find a way of being in the world in a way that is consistent with Jesuits identity characterizes not only the history of the society of Jesus, but also take their current relevance. So we have to keep in mind that to understand the well history, we have also to know the current day, we have to read the American masochism, for example, to understand Jesuits. Yeah, and again, and you know, know kind of what we're called to do. I'm struck, you had a section in the book about Ignatius wanting to, you know, early in his story, right, he's like, oh, I should, I should be fasting. I should be eating Lanna lousy food. I shouldn't be. And then he's sickly. He's not able to then actually do the work that God is calling him to do. And so he changes it in his mind, okay, Jesuits aren't supposed to eat, you know, only lousy food. Jesuits have to eat enough to be sustained to do the work, but then maybe that, you know, the vow of poverty means that this isn't, you know, we're not having flame and yawn and lobster. Maybe it's, it's, it's rice and means, you know, and, and so this constant reading and responding to, you know, what God is inviting us to in the present moment through the lens of the, of the original intent of these, of these vows, or not vows, but, but these, these goals. I think it's really helpful. And again, I, I think you do a really nice job as you, as you go through the book to be able to see how again, thematically these things kind of grow and change and evolve. You have a whole chapter. This is your final section dedicated to conflict within and without the society of Jesus. So can you give us a mess to, for two examples, first, can you give us an example of conflict within the society that ultimately helps to, to shape the trajectory of Jesuit life? And then can you also give us an example of conflict between the society and the church that, that shaped, again, how the society, how, how Jesuit life continued to evolve and grow? Sure. Before doing this, I would like just to add a comment on your comment. I think that one of the big virtues of the society of Jesus is the capacity to change their mind. So, for example, it needs us at the very beginning of a, as path inside the society of Jesus, said that it didn't want to have teachers and the students in the society. And now we know how many university colleges and the Jesuits are directing. You know, I think that this is even the way to be, maybe a genius, maybe it's a strong word, but maybe a genius is the idea to change your mind, to be flexible, to watch at your word, and to understand that, okay, in 1560s, people need schools. So let's do it. Even if five years ago, I didn't think about school. So just to add a comment to your comment and conflicts, like any long history, Jesuit history is full of conflict, perhaps it is more than other stories, but internal conflicts within the society. I think that one of the most intense and crucial ones for the future of the Jesuits was experienced during the time of the very long general aid of Claudio Aquaviva, who was very general between 1581 and 1615, very, very long. He was the first Italian general after three Spaniards and Belgium. And in the middle of his years as a general, a group of Spanish Jesuits led by Nicolas Babadija, if he was a Jesuit of the first generation, something like 35 years older than Aquaviva. Babadija tried to impeach Aquaviva, accusing him of administering the society in a tyrannical manner. The accusers convened the general congregation to try to organize the Jesuits in a less centralised manner, entrusting more governing responsibilities to local superiors. But they were unsuccessful. In my opinion, this turning point also affected the Jesuits' way of living obedience. Aquaviva was probably not a despot, not at all, but he realized that negotiating was crucial. And among the conflicts within the Church, with Jump in the 20th century, I'd like to mention the difficult relationship the Jesuits had with Pope John Paul II. There were several moments of tension, a tension inherited from his predecessor, Paul VI. And Jump in Paul II, in my opinion, is my opinion, did not fully understand the social commitment of the Jesuits, especially in Latin America, and did not fully understand the charasm of their general Pedro Rupa. And when Rupa had gravely ill in 1981, Jump in the second appointed himself the successor of Rupa, he certainly had the authority to do so. But it had never happened in history that the Pope intervened so directly in the life of the society. He just received this decision with this man. I can read just a few lines written by the theologian Carl O'Ranner. Even after prayer and meditation, it has not been easy for us to recognize the finger of God in this administrative measure, because our faith and the experience of history teaches that even the highest authority of the Church is not exempt from error. I think these are very strong words, very interesting words, not just for an historian, for everyone. And after this episode, it happened that the Jesuits general chose to resign once he reached the age of 80. I tend to prevent health issues. And several generals have done this. I don't think it's a coincidence. Thank you. Those are really helpful examples, and both speak to the tension, the paradox, the creative tension within the society, because again, we're talking about obedience, we're talking about the fourth vow, obedience to the pope, and we're also talking about constant discernment in reading the signs of the time. And these are individual people that are still trying to figure out what God wants them to do. So this is really helpful. Thank you. As you're looking at this history, what do you believe Jesuits today can learn? And perhaps what do you think the Church at large can learn? Oh, first thing first, we all, we all, not just Jesuits, should learn from our history. And history in general, history is fundamental to understanding the world we live in, and to reason fundamentally about the direction in which we are moving. This history has very relevant passages about peaceful coexistence between cultures. It is a topic on which there is always something to learn. Then there is the interest in other cultures and other religions. History changes, history is never the same, but interest in other cultures, in other religions in the early modern age, was inevitably different than it is today. But it was there, and today we can better understand how to experience it in a virtuition peaceful way. And by saying, we, I mean everyone, Jesuits, non-jesuits, Catholics, non-Catholics, Christians, not Christians, we, who live our profession in the cultural sphere. I think we have a great responsibility in this regard. And as for a recent history, I already mentioned it, but I would like to highlight, I think Jesuits still have much to learn from the charisma of General Pedro Arrupe. He had the ability to interpret it toward, he traveled a lot, it was like a newcomer in the history of the Church. Before Pope's, he chose to minister his generals, his generals, his generals, through travels, to encounters. He got to know so many people and so many such realities. So I'm pointing out the relevance to live in peaceful way with the cultural difference, diverse religions. I think that history is very relevant to understand difference and to peaceful, peacefully accept the difference as good. Absolutely. And you make the important point at the beginning, right, that it's useful for all of us, not just Jesuits. And I think in part, because Ignatian spirituality is so accessible for all people and isn't this lofty system that is reserved just for the high and mighty, but in fact is a spiritual tradition that is very accessible and also kind of thrusts us into the world. So I think it's why we see the current father general, Father Soso, is also always traveling as you highlight here, right, always on the move, always going to see Jesuits in far-flung places to be with the communities there. But part of this history, as you've reviewed it all again, most inspires you and perhaps what part do you think deserves some more scrutiny? You know, I like archives and sources in the archives, but also in the sources published by various historical institutes, Jesuits and others. In these sources, we can find so many suggestions and to answer your question, I want to keep the thematic perspective alive. So I'm going to talk to you about teams, not years or centuries. So as for me, I'm so interested in the history of daily life. I am a missions historian and I have started the research of the missionary daily life in the long period. I think there is a room for a lot of research on this topic, because history is also made up of daily life. It seems obvious, but we historians don't always remember that. They are not just big fights, diplomacy, but there is also meals, sport and everyday life. Another thing, there is the research on laborers, temporal quadutors. The society includes various degrees of members, the site of Jesus. The one held by lie brothers is really important and why, you ask. I will answer very simply because it's beautiful, but it's not enough. But there is more, and as I said before, history helps to understand diversity. And these are teams that tell us about diversity, cultural, religious, hierarchical, and one more last thing I'll add, I would like that these new researches lead to dissemination books, not just to research books, dissemination books, nice to read, interesting for every bloody, not only for us historians. I don't think I know him, probably because we have no record of him in their kind. I was telling you earlier about the lay brothers, some of them did incredible work. For example, my case study, in the northwest United States, missions in the second half of the 19th century, we had a quadutors, a two quadutors, brothers, Belgians, Klesent and specked, a blacksmith and a tinsmith, they built houses, they built a church, they built a mill, they were missionaries among the flatheads and let's process, they were led by a father, Gregorium and Guarini and Italian, who wrote very little about them, about their efforts, who he appreciated them. But how many Klesent and speckes are there in the history of the society of Jesus? They did not write anything about themselves. So we have to go and find out how many of these Klesent and speckes we have in the history of the society. I think it's a good challenge for all of us, as we remember, as you said, history is written in the ordinary moments, in the daily life and who are these, a whole of the underrated folks in our own days that are doing really good important holy work and yet might not make the front page of the next history book. Cloudio, thank you so much, really appreciate your time and your insights and your research. The book is the Jesuits of thematic history and I will include a link for folks who are interested in picking up a copy in the show notes of this episode. Thank you so much for being here today. We hope you come back. Thank you so much for having me and thank you for listening to our podcast and thank you for reading my book or for being interested in it. Thank you very much. AMDG is a production of the Jesuit Media Lab, a project of the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington, D.C. This episode was edited by me, Eric Clayton. Our theme music is by Kevin Lasky. The Jesuit Conference Communications Team is Marcus Bleich, Michael Lasky, Megan Leepch, Becky Sindelar and me, Eric Clayton. Connect with the Jesuits online at Jesuits.org, on X at @ Jesuitnews, on Instagram at @wearethejessuits and on Facebook at facebook.com/jessuits. You can also sign up for our weekly email series, now to discern this, by visiting Jesuits.org/weekly. The Jesuit Media Lab offers courses and resources at the intersection of Ignatian spirituality and creativity. If you are a writer, podcaster, filmmaker, visual artist, or other creator, check out our offerings at JesuitMediaLab.org. If you or someone you know might be called to discern a vocation to the Jesuits, connect with a Jesuit vocation promoter at via Jesuit.org. Drop us an email with questions or comments at media@jessuits.org. You can subscribe to the show on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And as St. Ignatius of Loyola may or may not have said, "Go and set the world on fire." (music) (gentle music)