Are you ready to go down the rabbit hole? The All Things Alice podcast will explore the cultural phenomena of Alice in Wonderland. Frank Bedor, the author of the Looking Glass Wars trilogy, is your host through a wonder-verse of interviews from all types of creators as they chronicle the dark yet empowering reality of Lewis Carroll's fantasies and answer the question, what is it about Alice that captivates us still today? The All Things Alice podcast, available wherever you listen to podcasts. From the team that brought you the award-winning show Retro Replay and the Emmy-nominated comedy series Con Man comes a new idea just crazy enough to be good, introducing couch soup. I know, I know, you're probably wondering, what is couch soup? Well, couch soup is content for your hungry nerd soul. Daily articles from fans, not pundits, weekly podcasts that contain a multiverse of opinions on All Things Pop Culture, exclusive videos and weekly live streams where we laugh, scream and sometimes have technical difficulties, all created by folks like you, the gamers, the film nerds, the TV, bingers, comic book lovers, bookworms and pop culture enthusiasts all in one giant bowl of beautiful disgusting soupy goodness at couch soup dot com. This was like getting a crush at the end of your, like, middle, like, you're doing your high-year, right, and you're getting so pumped up all summer long, you're getting smarter, you're reading all your, all their favorite books, you're working out, you've got a new wardrobe, and then you go to class, and they move to a different school and didn't tell you. You're just like, what I do to tell her. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Decoding Dragons, couch students watching now podcast and we break down all things, how is the dragon and we're your host, Liza and Michelle, spilling the royalty and breaking down the fire for every episode. Yeah, so I've read a song of ice and fire series and binge the show multiple times, Liza has seen the show and red fire and blood, so when it comes to thrones and dragon lore, we got you covered. And we have a guest for our finale party. Yes, Kaylin is back, and if you missed her for episode four, I think she just launched her art and pop culture platform, the abstract Voyager, where she showcases her absolutely stunning abstract art and her love of nerd culture. So please definitely feel free to introduce yourself and let us know where we can find you. Every time you introduce me, I tell you you do a great job. There is nothing left for me to say. I'm always grateful to be here with you lovely ladies, and I'm ready to break down this episode, so let's get into it. Let's get into what happened in season two, episode eight called the queen, whoever was. Just the title already gets restarted, but our obligatory spoiler warning first. So as you all know, we break down fire and blood, which is the canon that house the dragon is based off of loosely at this point. So you may not get really spoiled, but obligatory spoiler warning, we talk about the canon. We save the big spoilers for the dragon dreams section, but you are likely to hear stuff throughout. We'll be back after you've caught up on the season, if you haven't, or stay here, get all a tea, we're a mess, so you will have fun. Today's episode, because it's our finale party, is actually not going to be as structured as our usual one. You'll probably see all the same cars, but today our blood section is just going to be reminiscing on the season, talking about stuff that we enjoyed or didn't enjoy and just kind of revisiting character arcs, et cetera. We're just discussing the whole thing and the blood section instead of asking questions. All right, let's get into it. Listen, what kind of fucking finale was that? I think it was the finally it's over type of finale. This was, this was, this was, it wasn't a finale. I actually, I would officially, and I am saying this, as you can see, I can't God, I have so many collectibles, I can prove my point. Yeah. I am a huge fan of Game of Thrones. This was the worst finale of any TV show I have ever seen in my entire life, and I'm including every TV show I have seen, I cannot think of a worst finale, and yeah, I'm not saying it as a hater, as you know, like I love this franchise, but it was just, it left so much to be desired and not in the slow burny way in the, nothing is happening kind of way. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't think I have seen a finale that left me feeling like, that's it. I fell in there for so long because I thought we were going to get the gullet. I was just sitting there, like tapping my foot, wearing the gullet. There was so much talking, and I don't mean talking in the ideology that we're building up to something with a resolution, it was just talking and talking. Repeating. And talking, and I think that in my opinion, this is what it looks like when you don't trust your audience. When you don't trust the intelligence of your audience and the support of the readers, this is what it looks like when you're basically holding everybody's hands and low key money laundering. Yeah, we were talking about that. I think the episode before last, and yeah. And honestly, I can say after watching the entire season, you're probably only the three out of the eight episodes, if that right, if that and I'm, and I'm being generous. I am being generous with the number three. And this season was not strong enough to leave on anticipation, it just wasn't. You needed an actual cliffhanger, and that wasn't it. No. That was not it. No, it was so... Agreed. It was so many things to say. I'm so aggravated because like, what? That happened, like they literally almost admitted that the entire season is filler. You right? Pretty much. So I saw somewhere that Martin had said that they would need four seasons to do the story justice. And ten episodes. And ten episodes each, and I can only assume that he might have been considering the fact that they might include A, like the aftermath after the hour of the wolf. There's a lot of political upheaval that happens after the power structure gets so demolished, I suppose. Like the power, like the dragons are, you know, it's the dance of dragons. So there's a lot of political upheaval that happens that you might, he might have been including. And there's also people we haven't been spending time with. Like there's Bloody Ben, there's Alice Ann Blackwood. I can't remember if we saw Sabbath of Frey or not. I'm not sure if that was the Frey on the bridge, but there's, we could have been an old town meeting Darren. And I think Otto's brother's name is Ormond, like there's places we could have been had we not been locked into two houses. I was just chatting with Kaitlyn about how in Game of Thrones you got houses POVs like we got the Lannisters and the Starks, but we also got people like Littlefinger, Ferris, the Hound. Like people were moving. You've got little Sansa like, Sansa, like there's so many points of view characters that you got to see the world and what was happening. And that does spread out your story. But locking yourself in these POVs is a struggle. That's what I was thinking about in the episode last night when I was watching it because you and I have discussed that before on the decoding dragons of like, you're locked in, you're too zoomed in. And what I was thinking about was we were, my husband and I were talking about in Game of Thrones, you do get all the side stories like exactly like what you're just saying. You get all the side stories and when you get zoom in like close-ups of Daenerys Targaryen, it's special because yeah, you're following her around, but you're also following her story and her side quests and Jorah and you're learning more about the side people. And that's what builds the tension because you know something's going on, but Daenerys doesn't know something that's going on. We followed Jon Snow to Castle Black, but we also learn about Benjen, uncle Benjen and Ned Stark's story at the same time, Jon Snow's going to the wall. So like you're bouncing around the map and you're bouncing around these stories and so everything you're saying is exactly, I'm just reiterating essentially, but you're zoomed in to Alison in King's Landing and you're zoomed in to Rhaenyra at Dragonstone and that's all you get. Yeah. Whereas we could have had more of an impact of Ammon burning down a sharp point, right? Because it is House Massey, who sits on Rhaenyra's Black Council, but you don't know that unless you dive into the lore. It's also, I think I looked it up because I was like, I don't think Ammon burns sharp point in Fire and Blood and I don't think he does. I double checked, but I think it also sits right there on the gullet. Like it's a coastal house and you're right, he's on the council, but they don't connect those dots for you. Like you don't see him outraged that she let Ammon do it, you know? It would have been so much more impactful if we had that backstory of knowing where each of her members came from. So we could understand that the slack that happened in the middle of the late season would have been more impactful or he just lost his hometown because Ammon had a hissy fit. You know what I mean? Yeah. But normally, I try to default to, because I guess to explain my credentials to the viewers out there, I have never read anything Game of Thrones ever, lies alone to me, the book. And so I'm planning on reading it afterwards to kind of catch up and see what else was added from the show and what was taken away from the book and so forth. So I'm watching this as someone who just thoroughly enjoys fandoms and loves nerd culture and also just enjoys watching really good TV. And something that was disappointing in this season was the inability to have resolution even in buildup because I went on X and other social media platforms and a lot of people were upset that there wasn't really a lot going on. And of course, there were the few people who were like, well, you all weren't complaining when there was buildup in Game of Thrones. I'm like, you're right, because there was usually always something left. There was something more. It was pulling you away, but it was pulling you into more tension. It was pulling you into more of the world and the people, which I feel like we both are all three of us have kind of said at this point, but that's why Game of Thrones was so it was messy, but it was messy. Oh, messy. You had to pick sides. You were asking yourself what your morals were like and everything, but in "House of the Dragon," it's pretty straightforward. The family is fighting family. Somebody had miscommunication, which we're going to talk about that in a little bit because I got some statements about this, I got statements about this miscommunication trope, but it's not a lot to be desired in the end. I agree. Obviously, there's the looming threat now of the White Walkers and the Long Night, but in Game of Thrones, that threat was always there, but you had smaller villains. You had smaller antagonists, smaller villains, and the story. Yeah, and smaller accomplishments you had to make. In this one, the dance of the dragons is the story. You have a looming threat, but that's 300 years off, 200 years off, right? But there aren't extra stepstones. This is the story, and they haven't made anyone a villain. Everyone is so neutral that there's nothing to root for. You're just watching it happen without caring about what's kind of happening. That's a really good way to say that. That's a really good point. As you're talking, I'm thinking of the other villains that we know of in Game of Thrones, and if you think about it, no, we don't have a villain in this season. Because the camera is making you undecided, it's indecisive, because to me, it seems the show didn't know what it was doing. The show doesn't have a side either, yeah, which is fine, but you know. Yeah. Well, I mean, backtracking a little bit, I want to address the idea that the symbolism and the themes are not lost on us. We understand the parallels that are being made. We understand the foreshadowing that's being told. We understand what they're trying to do. And I am not saying that they did not execute it correctly, but a phrase that I've been saying repeatedly over the last couple of days is two things can be true at the same time. Your themes can be well executed, but they can also be bad. They can be bad. I can see what you were attempting to make between the very, very last shot, right? The very, very last shot between Rainier and Allison after we finally got off of Allison's face. And we, and you got to see them standing, right? Rainier has now, we see her making movements in the beginning. She was free and wild and didn't want responsibility. And now no matter what she chooses, she has to stand in the castle. And Allison, who was strong and dutiful, who, who, like Rainier said, when she read her and was like, look, you only had your virtue. Now that's gone. She's like, I just want me. We get it. But it didn't take, it didn't take, it took eight episodes to get here when there were so many other things and so many other people. Corliss has yet give my man his mourning for his moment. Give him the mourning for his woman. Rainier out here was running wild and free for sheepstealer. And my girl literally drinking stream water, sleeping in the cold, like give, at least let the dragon say, so, like, why we should have at least gotten something right now. Why can we get like a hand, a palm, like a roof or something like a bow on the nose. Make me think of the danger, make me think of like, you put everybody in armor. You had everybody ready to go and you're just like the end two years. No, ma'am. I know. I know Hugh and Adam are in dragon riding armor. Rainier is like 10 steps away from sheepstealer. And we lost, in my opinion, yes, I am salty. Okay. In my opinion, we lost the gullet, which needed at maximum. You need at most 20 minutes for the gullet. And we got it because we lost it because we're near in Alice and have a conversation that canonically happens later, the conversation that they had happens later in the book, like they could have just waited and we could have gotten the gullet. Like, and I keep harping on the gullet because it's a set piece that Game of Thrones usually ends on. It moves the story forward and it has consequences for both sides. Like, it's a very important event that I think would be well paced to stop on. But we got staring at windows instead. Yeah. I mean, they're going to open with the gullet, which makes it way less impactful. See, everybody keeps saying that. And I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I am 100% convinced that you all are not getting the gullet in your first episode. You're going to get the gullet probably episode two or three. And you know why? Because why would you start with the blood with the blood, black with the word make words? Why would you start with the blood bath and then have to deal with the aftermath when you still have so many untied things? Like, I personally, they're going to make y'all walk and talk for a little bit for at least two episodes. Somebody would try to stop it from happening and escalating someone will stop it. Yeah, exactly. But I do want to say, and I know it's probably too late for that, but I didn't take notes of the things that I wanted to express that I enjoyed about the show because it's really easy. I know to when you're mad, it's easy to focus on things that you hated, which you will get to. However, we want to go ahead. And I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt you on that because I thought it was important to say we are not, I know Liza said this already, but like we are not actual haters. Like we love the canon. I am under the unpopular opinion that I actually liked Game of Thrones season eight. So like when it comes to like liking things that people don't like, like I'm good with it. I like season eight, but this season was not it. The season was not it. I'm sorry. I'm going to go ahead. You're fine. You're fine. You're fine. Defend yourself at all costs. And I do want to say that there were good things in favorite characters. I loved the dragons, which you would think does that's a given, but it really isn't because they did not give us a lot with the babies. And I was telling Liza off screen that I've gotten to the point where I'm so non invested in these main characters that I've resorted to feeling more emotional connections with the dragons. You got to fight your momma, your daddy, your cousin, your sister, your brother, and you didn't even you didn't even ask for it. I feel so I know the same one person, all the same one person. That's a good one. I know in your family, these things get confusing. Broom roasted, but I've gotten to the point where now I feel more connection to the dragons, Vermer Thor and Silverwing, just crisp, absolutely crisp, the red sewing is probably like one of my favorite moments of the season. The next person that I and it's funny because the very first time Liza had me on the show with you all, I was talking all my shit about Amund. And I was like, you dusty wish.com, Damon, I can't stand you. But this season? Oh, I was here for him. Even though as I agree, he still wish.com, Damon, book in the books like in the show. I'm here for it. He's a loose cannon. He's totally a crazy Targaryen like which way is the coin going to flip when he wakes up in the morning? We have no idea. But no, I've absolutely enjoyed his villainry, but I've enjoyed his strategicness. I've enjoyed his coming of age and his ability to really take over the screen. And if I'm not mistaken, I could be wrong on this, but I believe the actor who plays him does not have any real professional training or he hasn't really been in a lot of things. I could be wrong on that. Please quote me if I'm wrong. Put it in the comments. But for him, for this to be his breakout role, this is insanely good. He's doing very well. Very well. And I like his character arc also because you can see the trauma, like the childhood trauma. He's going to snap any minute and you don't know which direction it's going to go, but it's a scary snap. It's not like doffery is just psycho. He's just like, who do they go? Yeah. He's so hateful. Absolutely. I saw one thing on social media, if I may cut in for just a moment, I saw that Alice, someone mentioned on social media in like an edit that Alice and children are representations of herself. Meghan is her trauma, Amund is her rage and Helena is her gentleness. And I thought that was like a really fantastic way to like encompass them and like explain what they represent in the story. Yeah. Absolutely. I love that though, because in a way when I am not a parent, I am not a mother, but I can only imagine the ideology behind whenever you give birth to a child, that's a piece of you. And for someone to break it down that way and for the show to do a good job show you did a good job explaining the difference in her personalities and the children, I think that was fantastic. Egan getting what he deserved, baby boy, I'm sorry, but you asked for it. Sorry. Sorry. You started out a minute and not in a good way. So I mean, in a way, in a way, I do think that I too will give some, I guess, flowers where they belong. I think Viserys, Egan and Hugh so far have been better in the show than the book. And I think this Egan is a more well-rounded picture than we got in the book, but also like, let's not forget what he was doing in season one, so you did kind of get what was coming to you. I'm just saying. I'd like to ask Liza a question real quick on that. What did you think of when Egan was like the realm's delight? So that was a reference to what they called Rhaenyra when she was young. So I thought that was like very sassy and like sarcastic and referencing cool little like book nod there. It is. And there's something he says to her much later on that has that same energy. You know that phrase like, show me two things with the same energy. That's a thing. So it's definitely both a dig and foreshadowing. Yeah. Cool. Okay. Damon and Rhaenyra at Harrenhal, but not for the reason that most people enjoy it. So I know for some people, let me talk to the lovers real quick. Come here. Come here, TV show lovers. Let me talk to you. I love that scene. I know you were really, really tired of watching Damon go through that struggle, right? You finally got to see Rhaenyra and Damon coming together and he's looking at her and she's looking at him and he turns to those men and he grabs his sword and he screams and he cheers and you're like finally teen black is on top. And it was amazing. You got chills, maybe even a tear shed from your eye. I liked it because I was like about damn time the shit was stupid. That was a, that, that separation between the two of them. I was like, you mean to tell me that the entire time this has been happening. My girl could have dropped, not jobs. My girl could have jumped on a dragon and just flew over to her man and been like, yo, what's up? Really? It was, it was, it was like, it was absolutely anticlimactic for me, but I enjoyed it because I was like, it's finally over. We're done. We don't wrap this. So the way that they had structured that is to make sure that nobody knew what he was going to do. Like, does he want the crown? Does he want the throne? Like nobody around him knows what he's going to do. He obviously knows what he's going to do. Stop. But we didn't care. Like we knew, we already knew his intentions. I don't know. Damon loves Venera. I don't want to hear anything. I don't want to hear anything. Everybody knows that Damon would have slayed. Any person, anything that came after or against Venera? No way. And you know how we know this? Because you all set him up to be this badass in season one, when he charged his butt through the step stones alone, obviously they became in support of later, but still. He was ready. And also at any point in time, he could have taken the throne. He could have taken it from Viserys. He could have taken it from Venera. The minute they got married, it could have been his. And also, does it really make sense he's going to take his one army from Heron Hall against Venera and her dragons and again, and again, everyone's dragons. He was never going to. Don't play with me like that. He's always loved her. He's always wanted her. And the only thing that should have been in question was how long it was going to take the Riverlands to get their stuff together. See, and that's what happens in the book, like he's just amassing armies. And like OG Damon could have still had the vision, and I think it would have hit harder had OG Damon had the vision instead. Next. To me, that is literally the definition of this meeting could have been an email. Like, or vice been there. Why did we need all of that? I do appreciate like on paper, I can see how Oh, Damon is having these visions. And now he has to finally see the vision to understand why Vernier was the heir and not him kind of thing. Like I understand it probably looked good on paper. It did not translate over eight fucking episodes. He could have said, you're right. He could have seen it as OG Damon. He could have seen it. He could have seen it and then had the visions and then everybody was like, Oh, what's he going to do? But again, he could have just hopped puddle jumped all over to freaking Dragonstone and been like, this is what's going on, girl, I'll be her back. Yeah. I'm hot back. And also I have a question for the writers of House of the Dragon. Is it not still possible for him to keep his loyalties and his love to Vernier and still have these visions and maybe struggling to be a leader, questioning yourself, I'm Damon Targaryen. I've done this. I've done that. I'm the son of the. I'm the brother of one of the most peaceful Kings after King, just Sarah's sorry, Jaehaerys, my apologies. You didn't think it was maybe possible to still give him the challenges of, well, what would happen? Everyone around him wanted him to be King because they are questioning Vernier's ability because let's be honest. I love you, girl, but you were gone for a while while you were grieving for your son and you didn't tell anybody. So it still would have been possible to have a strong male character having these questioning visions, but still holding his own because great, let's be honest, we all have to struggle with that. Like how many times are we dealing with our own, you know, mental challenges, but we still got to go to work every day. We still got to show up for our kids. We still got to show up for our spouse and family and friends, et cetera. And I just think that this whole it looked like they were dumbing him down, bringing down his character to elevate Amund in a way and also to make it seem like he needed it. And he really, he really, you know, Damon, Damon did not need this arc. Like I am a fire and blood is interpretable. And thank you so much for what you said. Like that was, that was really well put in fire and blood. My interpretation was that Damon was always here for Vernira. Like, and I agree, like he could have been a massing army's, Harrenhal is quiet. And for people who have been in extremely like intense stressful situations, quiet is not always someone's best friend. So he could have still been having visions, but it didn't have to be like, you don't have to deprecate his character. I said that on of us the right word, but you don't have to bring him down. Like he could have been Damon as we know him and still gone through, you know, dealing with trauma, et cetera, and still supportive Vernira because they do have a, they do care about each other. And it's always been that way, like there was never a doubt in my mind in fire and blood that he was ever going to hurt her or do anything like that. Even in the first season, the way I understood his like visions and whatnot, you can correct me is because the curse of Harrenhal is also because it was built on an old God's wood. And so there's where wood trees growing through the castle now. So he's sleeping on a wherewood bed. And that's what's causing all of these visions on top of, you know, Alice Rivers doing whatever Alice is doing. So I don't know how much could have been, you know, removed. If you look at it logically, I guess, like he could still have visions by sleeping in a wherewood bed, but it didn't have to be about him to feel her throne. Yeah. Like I get, I get the point, I understand the character arc, I just completely disagree with it. Agreed. Again. Well said. That's a good place to interact. Yeah. Right. Two things can be true at the same time. I get what they were trying to do with it, but it just, again, y'all, it took y'all seven episodes to make it happen. And I'm just saying the tree been there for so long, like you could touch it any time. Other people have probably slept in that wherewood bed, they didn't get into this. All right, maybe show the visions in different times and then like it all comes together in the end. Fine. But anyway, and the last thing that I feel like we haven't really talked about so far is Beyla and Jace. I've really enjoyed watching this relationship bloom. It's been so, and pure Targaryen fashion. It was very refreshing to see them not wanting to kiss each other, but it was very nice to just see like that familiar bond of, come on, dude, you're a bastard. He's a bastard. Who cares? Like, let's fight and win this thing. Right. I love their relationships. She's holding that. She's holding that down. He needed her to like step up and say that like he would only have listened to her. I feel like that's, you know, they're adorable and it is their relationship is refreshing. And I think that they both bring something to the table. Like I, I agree. I think Beyla is just, she's like, she's very strong will and determined. And I think that Jace kind of gets a little lost in everything that's going on because he does have so much responsibility. Yeah. But I agree. She had like, she had the perfect way of approaching him with those emotions. Um, so I have a, I have a question for the hosts, if I may, who so far have been your favorite characters. Okay. My favorite character so far. The dragons count. The dragons count. Okay, so far, my favorite characters. I still like, I like Damon's character because I know him from the book. So like Damon, we'll just call it season one, Damon and hope he gets, hope they give him better stuff in season three, right? Okay. I also, I'm enjoying, I mean, like I like the loose cannon. That's nice. Hugh is so far better in the books than he is in, sorry, Hugh is better in the show than he has in the book. The Iraq season, Verma Thor, everybody else is just kind of not really done much. I also, I really like Beyla. I think Beyla is fantastic. I think if she does, she's just, she's just so cool. Beyla is just, Beyla is amazing. And um, everybody else this season, I just missed season one. Yeah. I miss season one. Those are my people. How about you guys? Yeah. Oh, hoo. I like Beyla. I do like Reyna, I didn't for a long time. I like her at the end of the season. Um, gosh, I guess Amund shouldn't be as challenging to find favorite characters. I'm going to say I like Regan Stark because I can't wait to see him. Regan was good. Spoiler. My microphone is blue because I'm saying neutral in, in this episode because usually it's red. But I was like, you know, at the Starks, we saw the Starks marching across the twins bridge, like winter wolves. Yeah, man. Um, and Jase, I like Jase this season. He's a good character arc. Okay. I agree. And we, I wish we'd seen more of Cregan. Those are his winter wolves marching south across the twins. But I agree with you. Like I think Jase has done really, really well this season. And there is some, some decisions he makes in the book that we're given to Renira in this season. So he does more in the book, yeah, he does more in the book, but now he did a really good job. And everybody's acting is just so good. Like I have no problem with acting from the main cast. It's fair. They are doing fantastic. You know what? Actually, on that point, I'm going to switch mine to Helena also. She is. Deep. Yeah. I agree. And like every time just on screen, you're just like lost in her performance. I would love to say I'll ask you here in a second. I loved the episode or the, the part of the episode where she's literally speaking to Damon, like she's out on her balcony speaking to Damon during his vision when Damon comes out and he was like, whoa, that's kind of cool. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. Like there are things that they did so well, you're just like, yo, like that's, that was dope. I agree. Yeah. I think. Yeah. Who was your favorite? My people. All right. Here, here are the people on my team. All right. Fela. Fela. Specifically for her. For her character being so resolute. Absolutely love it. It was like rainy's his character breathed a new life into her. So I love that. Q, my man against all odds, definitely, definitely want to see more of him. I'm not necessarily sure exactly what's going to happen to his storyline and what will go down with like his personal life. But I am so excited to see what happens to him in the show. Adam definitely loved Adam. He is, he's kind of like that wild card who is the severe underdog and is about to take over. And I'm really, really excited. I want to see more of him. And I wrote down rainy's because she's not, she's not dead. She will live forever in our hearts, rainy's will live forever in our hearts. Rainy's and it's, it's Maelise, right? Yeah. I think she says Maelise. Maelise. Maelise. Yeah. I think it goes up at the end. Maelise. They will forever have my heart. But unfortunately, I kind of agree with you guys, the main cast isn't really doing it for me right now. Right now, it's all of the people that are supporting them that's making me hang on by my little nail. I know. I know. It's not the acting. I really think it's just the fact that no one has, no one is willing to commit. Like I think that our original Game of Thrones characters, they committed to their choice of action and they had so much agency and I really, that's what's missing. I think it's, no one really has agency, like they're making choices, but they're like, they're doing it hesitantly. They're making hesitant choices. The last thing that I wanted to say in terms of summing up my feelings overall about the show is I wrote it down, so I'm already specifically how I wrote it. But what I said was the reason why I believe that House of the Dragon so far, specifically season two, is flopping in my opinion is because we're spending too much time focusing on what destruction will happen in a war versus watching the destruction unfold and it becomes less interesting and impactful because we don't know what war does, but we know what war does in so many terms and so I think that I'm really hoping that in season three, everybody just owns up to what has to happen now and we hit that. Well said. I agree. I think that I know that the story of Game of Thrones, the entire thing is anti-violence. That's the whole point and I think that some lessons are best learned visually. By example, that's how Kristen figured it out. I'm just saying, he was on the ground with it and saw what happened. It's a little crispy coal, crispy coal, but that was very, very well said. This is our finale part. We've got to kick it off. We've got to get it off. We've got to get it off. We've got to get it all. We've got to get it all off our chest. I really want to talk about the miscommunication trope. Go for it. I'm here for it. Yeah, we need you. We'll show this too. Clear up the miscommunication trope in the middle of your show. You start undermining the agency of the characters and I said you are a stronger character when you believe you are right, even if it's a lie. That is a dynamic versus giving up halfway through and then regretting it when everybody else now has to finish the war you started and yes, I'm talking to you, Alison Ty Tower of the Greens, you're driving me insane this entire season. You got mad because you couldn't sit at the council with your boyfriend and now you twist and you upset and you don't understand and that drives me crazy. There's nothing worse, in my opinion, than specifically a female character running away from accountability. I can't stand it. I believe that you deserved to sit there and you deserve to fight for what you believe then all the way up to the end and I'm sorry, but why are people just able to hop from castle to castle like it ain't nobody's business? I don't know how Alison did it. Obviously your dragon riders can make it in like an hour, but she just sailed right up to Dragonstone. It's not nobody knows who she is, I plot hole with a cloak over her head though. Right question. Yeah, but like that means that they just let anybody, they just let anybody in the castle. Well, Mary had already done it and Dragonstone, he was right, it was a sorry lack of security. I just believe that whenever you have that miscommunication trope and then you clear it up, the tension, the mystery, the was it really right, the realization doesn't hit. Also, it's been bad so far, but it's supposed to get a lot worse and if you're already running now, you're just going to keep running forever and you know, I told my husband, I was like babe, whenever I do something crazy and I don't want accountability, I'm going to be like, I'm pulling to Alison, I'm going to go float, I want to float honey, I'm just going to walk in the woods. Like again, it's one of those things like I get it, but it wasn't executed well enough in, in my opinion, like I get existential crisis, cool, but her entire character arc again, two episodes, Max, maybe, like Ayman took over what four episodes ago and we're just now having her realized that like she needs to go meet with Renira and maybe try to put this war on hold because of the miscommunication and like I get it at the end of the episode was supposed to be Renira like, okay, everybody's getting ready for war, is Renira going to say no, is she going to go like we don't know, is there setting a trap blah blah blah, who cares, I don't care at this point, yeah, I just I don't care, I just want to see somebody make a freaking decision to go to war. Yeah, season two, maybe in retrospect, when the when the whole show is complete, maybe season two will be a better season. I said that last night, I told my husband I said, maybe they're playing the long game. Yeah, maybe so if they nail season three and season four, maybe they're playing the long game. But right now in a world of instant gratification and everybody's just wanting what they want right now, I don't know if that's the way to have gone strategically. That's a point with we I think I don't know what the word like the phrase is, but I do know that like as a society, our attention span is decreasing, which I don't mind challenge like challenge that like make long stuff, you know, but I think because I'm with you like season eight was not good. It's a little better on a rewatch like it's a little better on a rewatch because there is some foreshadowing, so maybe on a rewatch season two will be like it's not as bad as it felt when you were in it, you know, yeah, I was hoping that was the case. Yeah, I was hoping that was the case this entire season. I almost said that a couple episodes of us because I'm like, maybe when we rewatch it, I'll rewatch it with going, wow, I was really harsh on that. And it's actually not that bad, but we're not going to know until we rewatch it until season three. Yeah. Yeah, but no, make me eat my words. Make me eat my words. Please like make me sit back like make me beg to come back and be like Michelle, I was wrong. I'm wrong. We need to get on there apologize. I'd be like Michelle invite me invite me back. I have to say my piece. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I do have a question about a gone escaping though. Is that canon? It is and I can I can break it down if you guys want to jump into our fire section. Yes. Okay. All right, let's go for it. So you were asking if a gone like evacuating King's Landing is can and it is so he and Larry's do actually exit King's Landing that it is set up for more of what's to come. And it's another like foreshadowing is not the right word, but it's a piece in the larger scheme of things. I mentioned sunfire is a piece in the larger scheme of things. We mentioned Gregost. So like all assuming they follow what's left. When fire is not dead. Where should work? A sunfire is not dead. No, a sunfire is not dead. And we're in the fire section, so I'm safe. That's not that bad. I'm a spoiler. Right. I mentioned Gregost. It's all pieces to like a larger story assuming they follow the source material. Kind of. Do we know? Do we know if the dragon that Rayna is getting is actually sheep sealer because I was under the impression for one of the scenes that it was Gregost because of how like away he was being she. I think it was distance that made it kind of look like that. It is sheep sealer. Sheep sealers. So, and he looks a little he looks a little scruffy. Yeah, I like it. Yeah, he did. Scruffy. But. Yeah, that's she. Is that mean like definitely Rayna is taking over nettles is plot line. Don't don't bring it up, Michelle. Don't bring it up. Don't bring it up. Hey, hey, since from the spoiler section, I did have like some peaks and tweaks here in the book here and there. Hey, for anybody who really has no idea why we're so upset that they deviate so severely from the source material. I want you to read fire and blood. And I want you to look at the relationship between Missaria, Reneera, Damon and nettles and then you'll understand. There's a reason that we care and you don't you don't even have to read the whole thing. I know it's a historical fiction, but not historical fiction like historical fiction. It's a historical tome about a fictional world, so I know it's dense. I know, but you don't have to read the whole thing. It's literally like this much of it is the dance, which is crazy because so much happens. But there's a reason that all the stuff matters so much and I wanted nettles so bad. But in addition to me being upset about, I think to answer your question, yes, I think we've lost nettles. I think nettles is gone. That's your question. I think she's gone. I miss her already and not even in a funny way. Like I know I'm smiling, I was falling through the pain, but also like I'm sad. I am genuinely sad because Reina's Dragon Morning is very symbolic. She's this beautiful pink dragon that finally hatches for Reina at the end of the dance. She is one of the last dragon riders because it's the dance of dragons. Not everybody walking out of here, obviously, but it's one of the last living dragon riders of one of the last original dragons of House Targaryen because when Dany's alive, they're small, right? And it's a symbol for a new hope and a new start and new birth. Like her dragon was important and to just write nettles out, like you can make it work with Damon. They can go the paternal platonic father-daughter route. You can make that work, but you lose so much symbolism of Reina waiting and then having this like symbol new hope for House Targaryen. It's so important and it's gone if they give her sheepstealer because I haven't heard of another dragon hatching to a rider who may have outlived their dragon. So assuming Reina did outlive sheepstealer, I don't see another dragon hatching for her. I don't see morning happening. And I'm going to miss this beautiful little dragon who means so much for their house. Some comfort to maybe give you is it's a good and bad thing, right? So they've deviated from the source material, right? Which means that at any point in time, you may still get nettles, but they'll do appear we don't know. But it's not for us to know it's for us to enjoy and analyze and see if we do like it or not. But don't give up hope yet. She may come back. She may. She may. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Nettles will come back. I think maybe morning would come back. I think maybe morning can still have a symbolic showing or you know, words. Maybe so. I don't know. I'm just going to cry a little inside every time I know offense to Raina, she deserves a dragon. I just. I just. Thank you. Raina deserves a dragon. She's work. She has obviously she has hiked. She has blood, sweat and tears this. So she deserves a dragon. I'm just sad that it won't be her dragon. Do you think it's possible that they're maybe giving morning to one of Rainier as other children? That's a spoiler for season three. Got it. Never mind. Michelle, we're good for them spoilers. She's like, tell me everything. I need to just read the channel book. I read it. I'll give you page numbers. I have Kayla, I gave Kayla and page numbers. I sticky noted as that from here to here. You get the whole thing. I need it. I got me. Okay. Get the heart back. I'll give you the page numbers. You'll be all set. Yeah. Yeah. That's how that, I don't got nothing, I don't got nothing else. I think you did. I think we could probably jump into our dragon dream section if you wanted to. Okay. All right. Let's go. Emma, Emma, I'm going to keep it short and sweet. Emma, Emma, you guys are both going to read fire and blood now. So y'all can either be like, Liza, you have this thing all wrong, like you are wrong. Or you can be like, actually, I agree with you. I think this interpretation was solid, but my interpretation was always that Damon was down. He was down for Renira. He was down for her to be queen. He was going to make it happen and he does. So I'm just like, what is happening? But I'll come back to that. But Alison and Renira's conversation that happened at the end of this episode did not have to happen now, they have a very, very similar, slightly different, but very similar in tone and point conversation after Team Black takes King's Landing, like Team Black in season three, assuming they follow source material will take King's Landing. And that's when her and Alison have like a last ditch, listen, come on. I made a mistake, something. And this conversation I'm going to interrupt you. Why couldn't we just get that as the final shot of season two? Like why couldn't she just like the final shot of season two be Renira at the red key? Like that would have been an amazing cliffhanger because we didn't need it the gullet. I don't know. Yeah. So for my canon corrections, like we did not need this conversation with Renira and Alison, we could have traded it for the gullet and move the plot. If it doesn't move the plot, it's got to go. And that's like storytelling 101 and no one is listening to that this season, I'm just saying. But, so we are talking about mourning and really like I'm, Damon fought Renira's war for her in the book and I think he should get the credit. I know the show is roasting him for whatever reason. Oscar Tully was just going in for no reason last episode. So I know the show is roasting him, but for anybody out there who's maybe concerned or confused about why I feel so strongly about this, like they said, fire and blood explains the whole thing. And my interpretation may possibly be a skew, but I've read it twice now and I double check myself. Damon fought her war for her and I do feel like he needs the character credit he deserves. Maybe they're playing the long game we shall see, but for now I stand by OG Damon. Yeah. Strong male characters need strong female characters and nobody has to shit on the other character in order for them to remain strong. It is okay for men to also be strong with women. It is a thing. It is perfectly okay. You don't have to make somebody weaker to make the other person stronger. Just saying. Kristin Cole Michelle, Kristin Cole, y'all even Kristin, like, even Kristin's better in the book. I'm just saying like he's horrible, but I remember a couple things about him and I'm okay. He's got a complete side note and I don't want to take away from what Caitlyn just said. Caitlyn, that was fantastic and I 100% agree with you. Thank you. I'm so sad about Gwayne because he's becoming a favorite of mine because he roasts Kristin every time he sees him. And I was so sad when he sat down beside Kristin. I was like traitor. Watching Kristin Cole on screen all season two was like walking in wet socks. In public, in tennis shoes, on ice. It was so bad. Dry air, dry heat and you got wet socks and you're just very uncomfortable. That's what Kristin Cole is like. Well, a wonderful, wonderful metaphor and speaking of water, I'm going to make a terrible segue into our next episode predictions. We have to get the gullet. I sound ridiculous. I want both of you to know that in my articles that I have written, I've been putting the gullet since like the first teaser of season one. I sound ridiculous. I have been waiting on the gullet for four years now. I'm pretty sure. At some point it has to happen, people. The gullet has to happen. This next thing, we don't want it to happen because it's going to be sad. It has to happen. And I guess Raina's going to get sheepstealer in the next season. The gullet will happen. Raina will get sheepstealer. She has to get sheepstealer because sheepstealer is supposed to be included in the gullet. So whatever order they do that in, Team Black takes King's Landing. We need to meet people. We haven't met this season that we should have. We need to meet Darren, we need to meet Bloody Ben, we need to meet Alistair and Blackwood and several others who we should have been already spending time with. And hopefully more Kregan, we should get more Kregan. So next episode should be like packed. I do think they could have paced it better. But I was so ready to see some more dragon riding. I was ready for it. I miss it. We were so close. We were so close. And it's not just for the spectacle. It's because it moves the plot, it moves the characters, it motivates the characters. Things happen. Everybody takes steps forward or backward. So we have to wait two years. I don't think it's fair for me to spoil the gullet. So I think we'll just sit on it. And yeah, that's what's supposed to happen. With our next episode of Predictions Closed, I do have an announcement to make. So this is my last time hosting Decoding Dragons. I am soaring onward, dragon pun intended to pursue my publishing business. And I wish you all the best. All of our watchers. I wish you all the best with season three onward. I wish you good dragony goodness and show happiness. Michelle is going to be taking over for me hosting. And thank you. Thank you for continuing. And I look forward to all of the content you will make. I'm so excited. And you will be back. I look forward to guesting hit me up. I will guest. I will bring all my salt and tea. Yes. All my salt and tea and my copy of Fire and Blood. Both of you have done such a great and amazing job hosting Decoding Dragons. Even as someone who is a casual watcher of Game of Thrones TV shows, I've always enjoyed watching Decoding Dragons and Liza, we are so proud of you that you're going to be going off and doing amazing things with your amazing book and universe to come in the future. So good for you. And Michelle, girl, rock it out. Yeah. I'm so sad. We started watching now with couch soup. We started the podcast in general. We have our decoding dragon. So I'm sad, but also that's why we're here. That's why couch soup exists. Fly. Get your air under your wings and go do your thing. You're going to be missed a lot. But yeah, I will hold it down as much as I can. Hey, then. Thank you so much for your kind words and Michelle. Thank you so much. You have been a fantastic, fantastic production partner and I'm so happy that we got to like start this podcast together and at least, at least our season two had a complete arc. Yes, it did. I thank you. I beg you, Kayla, for your kind words. I'm glad we do have some watchers. And I like watching our numbers take up on YouTube, you know, and I like to see what the audience is into, like, I really like to see the ones that people are more interested in. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I will be going out on a positive note. There are some really, really fantastic moments in season two, like the one that will always stick with me forever. I hope to hold it close to my heart forever. And for the record, I don't even like this character in the book, but in the show, up until this point in time specifically, the moment with Hugh and Vermatore was amazing. It was amazing, so, so, so good. They have some references they have thrown throughout. Like I mentioned Damon hearing the scream and hair and haul. We got to see Danny's body double, I'm assuming. I don't think. I did want to say that, like, the nods that they did to make everything kind of come full circle or whatever, but they were very good. I really appreciated the Damon realization and all of that with the Danny back and yeah, like that was cool. And like I appreciate that so much because she is a direct descendant from Damon and Reneera. And that's why it was so important to me that phrase in house in fire and blood where it's like Bala was her father's daughter. That's why Damon is so important because his personality gives so much to the book, to the story, to Bala, to their descendants. But it was just, it was just, they have so many like fantastic moments in this season. So I'm not going out on my last episode as a hater. I will forever cherish Hugh and Vermatore. And I got to see Silverwing. I got to see her in real life on a real screen. I got to see Caraxes, Caraxes is amazing. And as sad as Rene's was, Maeli's is fire, Maeli's is fire. So and there have been some really, really fantastic moments. I was really, really happy to be able to be on the show and chat about them all with you. Thank you. Yeah. And you're going to be missed. And I do want to say real quick though, that they did confirm that Daenerys is technically the Azora high, technically, I have heard that there are currently three open options. I have not finished the main five and the show, I'm, I think that there's been an discussion that there is show canon and there is book canon at this point. Yes. Yeah. And they kind of, they interweave and then they're separate. So from my understanding as someone who has not finished the fifth of the main five right now, I think there's three open options. I think it's Danny, John, and another one, like there's another, I think he's another Aegon, but I don't know much about him. He has a different name. I'm not sure who he is as a character, excuse me, but there's currently three open options. I'm assuming that for the show, they're confirming it's Daenerys. I thought for sure, those were John's feet walk of the mud when he was approaching the Night King. And I was like, where's John? Right. It was here to see Danny again, for sure. Yeah. And then I think my, probably my favorite moment of this, of this season, actually, is that auto high tower conversation with Aegon before Kristen becomes a hand of the king. Thank you. Thank you. It has stopped out. Yeah. And he was just all got so good in that conversation. That was so good at some peak acting right there. The way that Viserys walked into the throne carried season one, like that scene to me, Viserys walking through is season one, like that endowment at the stepstones in reverse order. It's Daemon and then Viserys walking into the throne. No dragons necessary, no spectacle necessary, just pure acting scene and gravitas. Auto's speech was that for this season, like just acting gravitas, just immersed in the moment. That's what I was, an auto is something, but that scene was like, yes. Yeah. Speaking of auto, I totally forgot to mention we see Darren into Sarion. And that was really cool. We see pretty blue dragon flying across. I wanted to meet him. That's okay. He's flying onward. And I'm assuming you know why auto is in like a cell? Nope. I don't know why he's in a cell. I know that I know why he's in a cell later. Like I know why he's in a cell. After stuff happens, I don't really know why he's in a cell right now. And there's possible there's something I've forgotten book readers. If you know, and I have just forgotten, please let me know in the comments. I know why he gets in a cell later, but I don't know why he's in a cell now. I was confused. Kayla, what was your favorite moment of the season? That's a tough one, but I'm going to have to piggyback off Eliza and say the Hugh and Verma Thor moment. I believe that overall in season two, that's pretty much how the audience was feeling. It was like, come on, like give me what I want. Take us there. But the parallel and the patience of Verma Thor being like, easy there, big fella. Yeah. I enjoy that a lot. And also Helena speaking to Amund and basically foreshadowing what's to come for his character with the battle above the God's eye. I love that moment. I think that there is some, there are some very beautifully delicate placement in this season. And I tweeted it earlier, but I was like, look, season two didn't slap because good moments don't make a great show, but there were still some really good moments. So I would say those two would probably be like my favorite so far and obviously, my girl, baby, I know, I know, she's so much more. That's more than what you asked for, Michelle, but I hope that you can. You get what I'm saying. No, there were definitely some good moments for sure. Yeah. Well, with that, we are going to wrap up the final finale party of season two of decoding dragons and we will be back every season on couch soup.com to recap the latest episode of house the dragon. We back when season three starts. Yep. Hopefully in a couple of years, maybe less. Caitlin, thank you so much for returning this episode. We are always so happy to have you back. Can you remind everybody when they can follow you and find more of your fantastic content? Absolutely. So you can find me on TikTok, Instagram and X with the underscore abstract voyager. I also have a website called the abstract voyager.com where you can get the latest nerd merch. And also read on a couple of articles and blogs that I'm doing the reviews of all of our favorite pop coda TV shows and to Michelle and Liza, thank you both so much for letting me come here. I absolutely have a blast talking to you all about the show and I can't wait to see what happens in two years. Hopefully season three will knock it out the fart. Yeah. Thank you so much for being here. Be sure to hit that like button on this video. Ring that bell and let us know in the comments what you thought of the entire season. Did you like it? Did you hate it? Well, we'll find out. And see you a next season with all the fires and soup on couch soup.com. All right. Are you ready to go down the rabbit hole? The All Things Alice podcast will explore the cultural phenomena of Alice in Wonderland. Frank Bador, the author of the Looking Glass Wars trilogy, is your host through a wonder verse of interviews from all types of creators as they chronicle the dark yet empowering reality of Lewis Carroll's fantasies and answer the question, what is it about Alice that captivates us still today? The All Things Alice podcast, available wherever you listen to podcasts. (bell dings)
House of the Dragon Season 2's finale "The Queen Who Ever Was" left . . . much to be desired. Regardless, we're throwing a finale party and reacting to the second season, exploring the lore behind various moments, and predicting what will open Season 3. Michelle and Lily will return for House of the Dragon Season 3 when it drops, so don’t miss out! Every season, we spill the "royal-tea" and break down the fire in each episode of Decoding Dragons, a show and podcast all about the epic lore fueling House of the Dragon. Here's hoping HOTD Season 3 will give us some fire to go with all this smoke.
