I'll come back to the Hunt in the Mason Dixon podcast. I'm your host Jordan Jones. On today's episode, I've got a buddy of mine. He came into the basement studio here and we got to talking a little bit about his life and in the shooting ASA tournaments and summer, his big buck stories and kind of his life growing up in the hunting like that. What it was like growing up hunting with his family and not really having a whole bunch of land to hunt and this was a good episode. I really liked David and I just met him this year at some of the tournaments. In this podcast, we cover a smorgasbord of a lot of stuff, kind of like the first minute or two, kind of got cut out, I don't know how that happened, but like the first minute or two of the podcast didn't even record. So yeah, that's kind of like where we kind of, you'll hear like we started talking about, he was like going pro in shooting ASA tournaments and that's where it starts out and then kind of getting his background and people he knows and who he's shot with and things like that. So I've been gutting a lot of feedback from you guys and I really appreciate a lot of, it's actually been all good stuff so I really appreciate you guys listening and sticking out with me and as I learn this stuff, this has been very, very fun. I'll just say this, you're going to kind of after this podcast, there's going to be a lot more like maybe zoom call slash on the phone call podcast because heck on weekends, I normally recorded on like Saturdays and Sundays during the off season, but now that deer season is almost here in North Carolina, it starts September 7th. I'm going to be doing a lot more zoom calls because you boys going to be going deer hunting. I've got, I've got quite a few cameras out now. I've got a couple good promising bucks that if they just stick around, I could have a year of my life this year. I had the year of my life last year, so I'm hoping and if I never top that year, so be it, but this year could be a very special one if some of the deer stay around, hoping I can tag out early in North Carolina so I can put a lot of my focus on the Midwest. I love hunting the south, it's very, very fun, but I'm trying to graduate into being able to hunt these Midwest deer a lot more often and chasing a higher caliber deer. But yeah, let me know, send me, I had some people, send me pictures of deer, they got on camera, I've had some people send me kill photos of here, please send them to me. I want to see them. I like seeing pictures of big bucks. Whether you've killed them, whether you got them on camera, I want to see them. Send me one that your brother's got, your daddy got, I don't care. I love to see it, just know it's on the hunt, MD pod, Instagram. Going to look into probably starting a Facebook here pretty soon, need to kind of branch out a little bit. Just wanted to make sure that this podcast is going to catch traction, and I think it has now. I think we're kind of getting, I think I found my groove, it's going good, it's going good. I'm looking forward to probably a lot more deer focused now. I just recorded a podcast tonight with a buddy of mine for West Virginia, a good guy, a guy has killed some absolute giants that will launch next week. The focus is going to be a lot more deer hunting now, and kind of prepping and what we've done instead of just age old success stories, the one that I've recorded tonight, it was a lot more success stories. He'd been in the hunting industry and stuff, but I'll cover that more next week as it launches. But with David, his dude is lights out on a bow range. He is, I've got to shoot around him with him. He had a motorcycle wreck, was out of it for years and got back in it, and you'd never have thought that that man could ever draw a bow, and here he is winning most of the tournaments he shoots in around home. So, look forward to hearing your guy's feedback on what you thought about David. Great guy, not a big social media guy too, and I really appreciate that about him. So yeah, guys, I appreciate you, and let's look forward to this fun podcast. Yeah. Like one dig, David, remember? [music] Yeah, I wanted to, but I didn't do too well in the pro classes, I mean, you, then guys are hammering. That's a different world. That's a different world. That's a different level. Yeah. So, the thing about ASAs is you go, you win everything in your hometown, you win everything within 50 miles of you, and you go to ASA, and all these guys you're shooting against are beast in their hometown, so you know, it's the best of the best, and you know, sometimes you stack up, sometimes you don't, and I just, I didn't, you know, but-- Yeah. I appreciate the honesty. I mean, it is what it is, yeah, I can, I can still tell at home, but them guys are just, they're on a different level. Yeah. They got more time than I have, you know, I mean, I'm a CNC program engineer, I spend a lot of time at work. I don't, I get home usually, it's dark, and I got a, I got a shop lot hanging above the target, I try to get some practice in it and not, but it ain't, I ain't got the time to paint like those guys do. Yeah, these guys are, the pros on that, on that scale, I mean, they're putting hundreds of hours in a target every day, every day, and that's, I was never, I'm a good shot with a boat. Like, in a pinch, I can make the shot happen. Now, trying to hit center 12s, or ASL 12s, or whatever, that's not what I mean by that. I mean, if the big buck steps out at 35 yards, and I don't have a range fight, and it just needs to happen right then, that's, that's where I can step in, that's the only reason why I ever really got in the shooting tournament. I usually make it happen on beer, that's what I'm saying. And that's why I got into the target archery, to begin with, was to be a better deer hunting than I'm into open setups, and trying to do the best you could of that, you know, long bars, and magnified lenses, and, but, yeah, it's a, it's a different ball game. It is, it is, I, I didn't, I shot with Billy McCall one time, like I did the, well, let's say this, I shot against him. I did like the pop-up shoots, yeah, yeah, I love, I love like the Buckmaster style pop-up shoots. I did really well in those, because I was a snap shooter. Yeah. And so I was used to shooting quick, and, and then like in that, in that style, it's not about, if you hit a 12, it's, you just got to hit that hit, where do you need to hit, and I was just, I was freaking hammering at that, and then I kind of got out of it, you know, this guy named Marty, he would go around all the way around North Carolina, and I could go shooting that circuit, and that was fun. I loved that, but dude, like the pro, the pro style, like I, I bought an elite set up one time as a victory 39, and I put like everything, I had the best site, best rest. I had, hands gear rest, I had CBE, single pin dial, I had everything that you could imagine. I had more in the accessories than I did on the bow, and dude, I shot one tournament with it. And I traded my dad and he had one of the elite impulse 34s with the, like the, they did like a special like 30 of these bows are manufactured with this paint job, the old original real tree paint job. Yeah. Well, I end up having two of them, the impulse 34s. They only made 30 of them, I had two of them, and I just, man, I couldn't get into it. I don't, I'm not going to lie to you, I get bored shooting my bow, I should board, get bored with it. So I'll, I'll hit the dot three or four out of five shots, and I'm like, all right, that's good enough to kill big there. Good enough for some of you. Yeah. Yeah. If I can, if I can go out, if I can go out in the backyard here, my first shot's always like 60 yards. Yeah. Every single time, just because you shoot 60 enough, 20 is easy. And that, that was my whole, that's exactly the way I went about it. I would step out. My first shots would be at 40, 50 yards, you know, 50 is the max LSA. So I would start at 50, and I was like, man, if I can, if I can keep it in a baseball at 50, then, you know, all the rest of the shots from zero to 50 is going to be, yeah. It's walking apart. Yeah. But when you get the ASA line, the pressure is, man, that it's totally different. Is it really? You have to be a Levi Morgan is a prime example pressure don't affect that guy at all. Yeah. I know he still feels it. I mean, he still, he still gets the nerves and feels of it. It's just, he just like loves it. He does and that he's so passionate about it, and you know, I mean, it's his job now. So that's, that's what he does. But that guy is just, I don't know, he steps to the line and it looks like he is at home in his backyard, me, not the same story. I mean, I get up there and I'm like, oh, God, there's a lot of money on the line. I got to hit this 12 or, and you get in your own head, you beat yourself in ASA. Yeah. I did a lot. Yeah. And. You drop one target, man. You're done. And it is. And those guys are so good that if you do drop that target, you get it in your head, I'll never come back from this. I'm done, you know, and then like I said, you're, you're old or standing me. You get in your head and then you're like, man, I drove all this way. I paid all this money. I got to do good. I got it. I've covered all the bases at home, practiced my gear and equipment is exactly what it needs to be. And it's up to me. I got this. And then sometimes you do, sometimes you don't know. I placed. I mean, don't get me wrong. I've, I've, you know, placed up fourth, fifth place, but I ain't, I ain't got a podium. So. No, that's saying something. I mean, yeah. I mean, I guess the guys I was shooting against, they were good hundreds of the best shooters in the country. I've got three, three or four, four place finishes. That's good. And, you know, several in the top 10, but yeah, I mean, like I said, it's just a. Okay. Well, see, you made it sound like that you like never did any good. So that's good. That's good to know that you actually were, you, you did really well. I was competitive. Yeah. You were competing against the top. I mean, when you're in the top 10, I mean, it's usually the same top 10. Yeah. It really is. Yeah. I mean, you got Levi, you got Dan, you've got, I mean, you've got everybody in that chance. All of them. Or did you shoot? No. Did you shoot? No. Yeah. That was just hammers. I mean, you put a dot out there and it's going to get an arrow in it. Mm-hmm. But, you know, I started to go shoot some unknown because I'm a pretty good judge already. I mean, I don't do too bad, but I think last tournament we shot together, I saw unknown shot six up or something like that. That's perfect. But I mean. And that was a tough. It was a tough. That was a tough score. It was long. Frank had that thing stretched. Yeah. Stretched. I've been shooting unknown and I'll tell you, I've shot known for the last freaking seven years. And dude, I don't shoot no worse shooting unknown. So I can judge yardage. That's one thing like growing up shooting ground hogs in the mountains of Ash and Allegheny County and like I've just always been able to judge pretty well. Like I'm not, I'm not the best, but I can, I can usually get within a yard or two almost at 18 of the 20 targets I'm going to be within a yard or two. And then there, then you'll have one that you missed judge, a freaking elk at, you know, 36 yards. You look at it. It looks like it's 29, you know, still paying the 10 though. But dude, just with that, it got boring in a way just, just shooting a lot of known yardages and then still not doing great. Like, I mean, I'd stay in the 90s and I'd shoot up a few times around even, but I would never, like, I think I shot up once or twice whenever I was shooting with a rangefinder. And I'm going, I mean, hell, I know the yardage. So then that's how I know it was all me. So I went to unknown this year, I went back to it like before they, just like it was before they allowed rangefinders on the course, you know, and I've had more fun this year, which I haven't shot. I only shot about five tournaments this year, four or five tournaments, but it's a lot more funded to judge. Oh yeah. And I think I break a cleaner shot when I don't know the yardage. Yeah, because you're worried about the yardage, you're not worried about the shot that you're making. I'm worried about, I'm worried about, you know, if I'm off the yard, then I just want to, that yard, I want to see one yard of mistake in my shot. I don't want to see me going under the target or, you know, way left or right. I'm focused on breaking a clean shot. I think I'll focus more on my shot when I don't know how far it is. And I can see that, you know, it's just like whenever, okay, like your deer hunting, and you go out here in the woods and you rangefind you three or four spots or some people don't range find anything when they get in a tree. I do. I range find three or four spots. I don't touch my rangefinder. Absolutely. But I've had plenty of times where the deer didn't come even close to where I range find it. And I'm like, uh, I think he's 36 and I shoot and I absolutely pin will smoke the deer. But then I like know the deer is 36. If I click it with a rangefinder, I'm like, okay, the 40 is supposed to be right there because that's where that 30, because I shoot pins and like my 40 is supposed to be right there in the bottom of his heart. And that's going to put it right in there or normally I just be like, ah, he's 36. I'm just going to shoot it like he's 40. Yeah. I'm just going to put my 40 in the heart. And if I hit a little high, hit high, if not, if I hit low, I'm going to drill him, you know, and that's, uh, that's kind of the way I look at it. Well, shooting unknown yardage, like I said, we was talking about the last time we shot together. Um, I'm going to pull a 56 pounds and shooting a 490 grain era. Yeah. I'm shooting like 250 feet a second out of phase four, 33. And, uh, well, since my accident, my shoulder injury, I can't, I couldn't pull the weight. Now I'm up to 61 pounds. I think I'm going to hunt with this year. Um, but shooting that slow and that low of a poundage with that heavier area, your, your judging has to be, it has to be on the point. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I agree. I agree with you wholeheartedly. So, so you said you had an accident, let's, let's dive into that and see how, and like, and I'll kind of see like, how did that affect your, you know, bow shooting the way it used to be to where it is now was it was just dive into that. Like what happened, um, showing my ass, that's exactly what happened. Showing. Um, we were practicing, uh, I got a, a big track that's, I don't know, quarter mile off and a half. Yeah. And, uh, we were practicing for a indoor race. I used to race a lot of indoor strip cross and, um, we were out there, you know, we'd been out there for a couple of hours riding hard and, you know, I was single at the time. We had some girls come and they showed up late and I had already took my boots off and we were back at the trailer and I took my boots off and they was like, well, we want to get in here and get a couple of jumps. We want to take some pictures. I was like, okay, so I throw on a pair of Nike shocks and, uh, what, what it was is about a 102 or 103 foot downhill, you jumped right here and landed off of the holler. And, uh, about the third time I come through there, my bike bog right at the top, right the face of the bed and where I was supposed to go 105 10 feet to the land and I went about 92. So you get the base of the landing? Yeah. Yeah. I went, uh, I went from about 23 feet high and about 45 mile an hour to a dead stop and I crushed both ankles, uh, toward my rotator cuff and my right shoulder, wrist, right wrist, collarbone and knock forefront teeth out. No kidding. Yeah. I spent, uh, about 33 weeks in wheelchair. Oh my God. Yeah. Just trying to get and just just trying to show off for a moment. Yep. Damn. And we'll make you do crazy things, which it seems like you got you a good now. I do. I do. I thought she was going to come with you. I'd been good. I was going to be giving you hail or we'd be giving her hail. I'm more than blessed. Yeah. That's for sure. Yeah. And that's. So how did that with, I mean, were you, is that when you were like going to ASA's? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Uh, like I said, I took five years off archery. I didn't even bow hunt, uh, cross bow hunt a little bit, but I mean, well, that's understandable. I worked. We give people on this podcast shit for shooting crossbows. But in the event that you have a situation like that, by all means, get out, get out there and just go get in the woods, whatever you can do. Yeah. Yeah. I, um, I bought one of the, uh, 10 point siege, 14 and, you know, it worked. It wasn't the same. Yeah. But it got me in the woods. Yeah. You know, that was, that was my biggest thing. I, I mean, I understand that. I mean, you're old man, you can't draw back more than 30 pounds or you're, you're disabled or something like bow means to take a crossbow. I get it. My dad, he had a real bad risk injury, um, spent a couple of years back and he absolutely hated it, but he bought a crossbow. He's like, I'm not going to not go hunting. He drew Kansas blah, blah, blah. And he said, I had a newfound respect for people that carry crossbows, which my dad is a mobile hunter. So he's like trying to hang tree stands with a wrist that's snapped in half and carry a crossbow. That's like impossible. That's, that's like impossible to do. But, uh, but yeah, I mean, I can see how, I can see how your accident, it wasn't because of the accident that you were scared or you just couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't draw a bow. Um, and now I could draw 30 pounds, but, um, I worked with bands a lot and, um, and done a lot of upper body workouts are starting with low weights and a lot of repetition. And, uh, I guess it was probably a year and a half ago, um, me and my now felons I got together and, or we've been together two and a half years, but, um, I started talking to her and I was like, man, I really miss my bow. That's what I miss more than anything, you know? And, uh, so I done some looking around, found a bow that I could, and Matthew's with the switch weight. Mm hmm, cams and stuff, you know, you just buy mods for different poundages. So, um, I just, like I said, I worked with bands a lot, you know, built my shoulder up a little bit and I still have issues with it, but, uh, I mean, it ain't never going to be perfect. It's not going to be where it was. It's going to be good enough to hunt. Yeah. And still shoot target archery. I mean, well, the way any bone manufacturer makes a bone out, you should be able to shoot 40 pounds and kill any deer in the country. I got a little cousin, he's, uh, 11. He shot two last year with a bow, shooting 38 pounds. That's insane. Well, blue slap through both of them. Well, my first deer, uh, I seem to say my first year of the bow is laying in that room in there. It's a doe. And, uh, I just haven't, I haven't put the deer amount up. I shot it with 33 pounds, uh, old PSE spider, shoot 22, 14s with a steel force broad head. And I mean, shot plumb through or something. The way bows are now, I mean, like you said, I mean, you're getting 250 feet per second out of, you know, with a heavier area. I mean, because you could shoot at 60 pounds, you could shoot a 400 grain archery and be totally fine. Yeah. And, and you're shooting almost a 500 grain arrow, which is heavier than what I shoot on 78 pounds. I mean, you could drop your bow weight down significantly and you're going to kill any deer out there. Yeah. You're going to stay 450 to 500 and my air weight. But, uh, I mean, yeah, I could, I could drop my opponent and still be okay. But I think with the, I shoot a, um, usually a, uh, saver brought his one, I've been shooting the last couple of years and, uh, they've, they've done amazing. You get pass throughs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, well, I mean, like I said, but I was shooting them out of a crossbow for a little while, but this is, this is going to be my first year back bow hunting. Oh. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So you, you just, okay. Interesting. Last year, last year was mostly crossbow. Okay. Well, I mean, like I said, that's understandable. You get now to where you can start to draw a bow and, and, and shoot enough weight to be able to kill one. Now you killed a big buck a couple. Was that last year? Uh, no, that was the year before my accident where I killed him with a bow. Yeah. That was a big nine pointer, wasn't it? Yeah. That was a giant. Tell us about him. A big deer, had him on camera, um, the property that I had, I killed the deer on public land. Yeah. But I don't, I don't say that that I killed him on public land because what he was was, I had prevalent access to public land that other people didn't have. Doesn't matter. You still kill him on public land. Yeah. But I, I'm not one of these chess beaters. You know what I'm saying? I'm, I'm not that guy. Like what Thomas said, the basement decorator, he's like, if you're going on the public land, just to beat your chest to kill a deer, then fuck you. Yeah. I wasn't that at all. I just, uh, I just, the guy knew, had some property, uh, that joined some public there. If you went into the entrance of this public, you had to walk six, seven miles to get back in there. Yeah. This guy I walked, it was backyard, you know, 400 yards from his house and killed a deer. Yeah. But, um, I had deer on camera. He was a, just a big mainframe nine pointer, big kicker off his left, uh, G2, eight inches long. He stuck straight out and, um, I said, I'm, that, that was, that was the deer I was going for that year. And, uh, I had my stand was an old road bed and the road bed kind of come in like a C shape and my stem was in like the, the middle of it. And, uh, the morning I killed him, he come up the road bed, start, stop, start hitting a little scrape air and a licking limb. I shot him at 52 yards. He jumped up, mil kick died 11 yards from my tree. Oh God. I was, I was about to come out of it. Yeah. He was, it was the biggest deer I'd ever seen in the woods at that point in time, you know. Um, but, uh, yeah, that was a, that was a great hunt. He was a, he was a good deal. So that's a giant, now just kill him, North Carolina, Western, North Carolina, like in the mountains. McDowell County. Yeah. McDowell County. And that's the county of buyers. So, anything about Western, North Carolina, you go around McDowell County, you're fighting. You'll, you'll see as many buyers you will deer in the woods. There's a lot. Yes. Yes. I can imagine. So kind of like getting back to the ASA thing, are there any, is there any like crazy things that's ever happened to you while you're out on the, on the ASA range? There's been quite a bit, there's been quite a bit of stuff. Um, I kind of think of anything that really stands out. We used to give, like, Tim Gillingham and stuff. We used to give him a hard time and, uh, we were on the line one time practice bills and buddy of mine, Tim's bow. He's like, what's this? You know, he kind of looked at me. He's like, Tim, he's like, I was rattling your bow. Tim Gillingham, he said, I heard that too. There was nothing. Um, Tim goes to his car and tires his bow down. Um, I mean, he, he, he tires it completely down. And he's back up and shooting, you know, by the time the, the tournament starts. But this, this guy messing with him and he got it in his head, Tim Gillingham is a great dude. Um, awesome guy. But he's quick to, if he thinks something might be wrong, he is, he's such a perfectionist like he's got to take care of it. Yeah. That's why he's one of the best. But he went in his car and tore his bow completely down to try to find that rattle. It was insane. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's pretty good. That's like, I've never went to any of the ASAs. I've never shot any of them. I've wanted to, but I honestly, that, I mean, even in the hunter class, dude, I, I couldn't compete. And like there, I wouldn't come close to competing even in the hunter class. I would take my recurs. Now, that's what I would like to be good at as it doesn't take long. I've been doing it for so long, um, that in 30 minutes, I could teach you the basics of how to hit a target every time you shoot at it. Now it would take you weeks of getting to where, of shooting it consistently every day, which you know how a bow works and I'll, I'll say any, any like, if you know how a bow works and kind of like how point of aim works, you can take a recurve and get decent enough with it at 10 to 15 yards to where you're going to kill a deer. Now is that fair to the deer that you're going out there and can maybe shoot it? I don't know, that's neither here nor there, but what I wanted to do whenever I was learning how to shoot, when my grandpa taught me how to shoot, he said, I want you to be able to shoot in the top of a medium sized cup, like the lid, like a cup lid. I want you to be able to hit that every single shot at 25 yards. And it was like 13 at the time of like, there is no way. Well, we spent four hours that day shooting. And I got just good enough to wear three out of four shots at 25 yards. I could hit it. Well, that evening I took my recurve and I killed my first deer with it. I shot it at eight yards, you know, and, and actually shot high on the day, shot a little high, a little back and, but with a recurve man, like, you know, if you have point of aim, I can teach you the form and stuff like that. If you have the form of being able to draw a bow, it's just knowing how fast your bow is, what your air set up is for the drop, because it means all instinctive. So you've got to know, like, the drop of your air, aiming points, things like that. But I bet it wouldn't take you long because, I mean, like I said, I'm not the best at shooting recurve, but I can shoot a recurve pretty damn good. And so that's why if I ever go to the ASAs, like, I mean, I still wouldn't place with a recurve at the ASAs, but some of them guys are hammers too. Yeah, some of those guys would beat me and I'd have a compound and they'd have a recurve name beat me. But I think that I would have a better chance at ASAs, like, I mean, they're done for the year, aren't they? Oh, there's one more of the classic. Where's that at? Coleman, Alabama. Are you going? If I can get off work, I am. You can get off work, but I didn't go in sick, but I mean, that would be fun. Like, I would, like my first ASAs I ever go to, I probably won't shoot in. I probably just go. Spectate. Just spectate. And you know, I've got the podcast here and maybe talk to a few of the people and try to get them on. You know, I'd love to have, like, Darren Christian Barry on. I know they've been on working class several times, or he's been on there a time or two, and then I'd love to talk to Tim. I'd love to talk to Levi, you know, Levi's a North Carolina guy, you know. Yeah. And Rossman. Yeah. I mean, love to talk to Rossman. Love to talk to Chance Boguf. I really, I follow Chance a lot. Yeah. Chance is good. Yeah. I'm still friends with all this guys. I still talk to quite a few of them, Billie McCall. We shot together at the South Mountain Bo hunters just a while back. Yeah. Is he still a hammer? Oh, God. Yeah. Billings, shoot. And another pro, Tim Roberts, a little Tim Roberts. We got a big Tim Roberts in our circuit, so got caught in a little Tim. He's a sponsored Matthew shooter. He lives three miles from me. Yeah. I mean, we shoot together some, and he actually used to own a pro shop in MacDow County where I live. Yeah. He owned that shop for like 20 years. Yeah. And he shut it down because, you know, he was going pro and archery, and he started filming some hunts and stuff. So he kind of went another path and got rid of the store, but yeah, I mean, I still talk to Darren. I don't know. A couple of weeks ago. Anytime I got a question about elite bows or ultra arrows or that's usually who I go to. So, all right. I know Levi just made the big switch from gold tip to ultra arrows. Why do you think that is? Because he took less money. He took, I mean, like even said, he made the announcement. He said, I'm taking a pay cut to go to ultra. Are they really that much better? Where is it? I mean, what is it? Levi is not going to shoot in something that he don't absolutely believe with all his hard him. Mm hmm. And that's the truth. Darren told me that he handed Levi a couple dozen arrows and said, try them. Because Darren shoots ultra arrows. Yeah. Yeah. Darren handed him a couple dozen arrows and said, try them, get back to me. Said Levi took him home, built him, shot him for a week and called him and said, we got something here. So that's kind of where that relationship started. Is ultra, is that an older company or is that an SNU company? A brand new company. That's what I thought. Yeah. It's owned by the outdoor group. Same people known as elite. Mm hmm. But like I said, Levi's not going to shoot you something. When he steps to the line, he's confident in his equipment. That's his job. He's exactly right. And he's not going to make the switch if it's not worth it. Levi don't, he's got plenty of money. Levi don't do it for the money. Yeah. You know, I mean, of course he's got to provide, you know, for his family, but he don't do it for the money. Levi does this because he's passionate about it. Mm hmm. I don't think Levi would have left gold tip if he didn't think these areas were better. Really? I know it. And that's what, that's what, like, I mean, I'm sure it shocked a lot of people in the industry like that. He just made the switch because he'd been with gold tip for 21 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was over 15. And, and, and that, that kind of shocked me because like I just made the switch from carbon expressed to victory areas and victory areas and leaps and bounds. You shouldn't have that. TKOs? Rip. TKOs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'm shooting the Rip TKOs and, and like I thought about doing the VAPSS and everything, but I don't really like the super small diameter era because I shoot a big broad head. So I want something with a little bit of, a little bit more shaft behind it, you know, to push it through. Like, for some reason, when I saw that he changed from gold tip to ultra and, you know, I'm not one of these guys like, oh, I got to be like the big guys. Yeah. But I know he didn't do it. I figured that he didn't do it for the money. I was like, maybe I'll shoot some in a buddy of mine and they'll annoy ball some and he went back to hit. I will say this. He went back to the victory areas and I'm going to say why because I don't really exact, he just said that he didn't like him as good as he did his victories and he shot victories for years. And that may just be because, I mean, honestly, may just be because he knows what he likes and if it was different and not willing to change, I don't know. I think he had like a bad experience or something with the ultra areas, not like the company itself. Well, they're new. Yeah. They're going to, there's going to be bugs. Oh, absolutely. That's why you never buy the first year model of a truck, I mean, model product. Exactly. I'm a gold tip guy, personally, I've shot for gold tip for a long time and I've had bad gold tip areas. I mean, they're man made, they're not going to be perfect, but I think that Levi's shooting the one 66 is and Levi shoots 78 pounds, 79 pounds with a 480 grain air or whatever. Yeah. There's a lot of ass potted air, but he's shooting that swacker brought him and I'm not a swacker guy. Just to be honest, I mean, unless you get an exit, I've had bad luck with the swackers. Yeah. I'm not a mechanical guy at all. I've had terrible luck with mechanicals. I shoot either the sever or the QAD exits. Yeah. I like those exits brought his. I've shot a bit. They're tough. Yeah, they are. Yeah, they are. They're very tough. They're recurfinged with them one year and I killed three deer with a recurve with them one year. I shot the same broadhead. No. Now, they weren't really that sharp. I mean, compared to what I used to shooting, but they never lost their edge. I mean, it was the same sharpness from the very first time I shot it all the way to the end. I killed a bear. I think it was like six, seven years ago. I shot it. I killed a doe with the same arrow like four days before and then I was setting one stand and had a bear come in. He was 50 plus yards. He was out there quite a ways and this was a big bear. This was 360 pound bear and I shot him and I hit him behind the last rib and blew all the way out his shoulder at 51 or two yards with the same broadhead that I just killed a deer with a couple of days before. So like I said, their penetrators are tough. I mean, they don't. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I've shot some deer with an exp with expandable heads that I don't know. Like I shot one very first year, every shot was expandable head, it was a doe. I bought one of those rage three blades and I shoot the deer. It was corded away. I shoot this doe 26 yards shoot and I got maybe half of my era's penetration. In the back of the ribs and I and it didn't like it poked out on the other side. That's it. Well, when I go to that, well, it ran 411 yards a day, right? Ran 411 yards. Dude, I hit the liver and both lungs. Why did it run that far? And like I'm a firm believer in the sharper you can get your broadhead, you're better. I know there's some people out there that say, Oh, you need to shoot it. And the target so that that blade will get a little serrated and it'll just like cut and tear. I'm like, dude, this isn't a lot of their, their, their organs are elastic. You want that thing to barely touch and it just sliced way open. That's where you get your blood trails from. That's where you get your penetration from stuff. You ever catch yourself with a sharp knife versus a dull knife? Yeah. You know, the sharp knife you bleed like great. I know, dude. I know. And like I don't know if it's just they were sharp or what, but then like it was literally, I think I shot that that was open in the morning and my buddy shoots an eight-pointer with the same type of broadhead, same three-blade rage. And he shoots it at 18 yards, Aaron doesn't go through it. The deer runs 350 yards and he double lungs it. I don't know how. No, no, no, no. I lied to you. He didn't double. He shot it right dead center of the heart and it was a pretty big eight-pointer. Never did. The deer and we're like, what in the hell is going on, then I switched to the T-3 heads. G5. Yeah, the G5 T-3 heads. And I shoot an eight-pointer at like 15 yards of blades on open. And I shoot another eight-pointer the next year with them, same situation. So dude, I have had, I feel one deer and I've shot three with the expandables and I'm like, no, no more. No more. I'm not doing it. I want something that I can pick up out of the dirt on the other side. I hunted with a three-blade muzzy for years. Yeah, I mean, one of the best products I've ever made. I killed a, it was an eight-point. His rack come up almost touched. He was just, he was- They'll down and shape right. Yeah. And I gut shot him. I shot him off the ground. I was hunting that morning and the first time I hunted the property. And my stem was about 60 yards more it needed to be. And so I got down at lunchtime and was moving my stand for the afternoon. And I heard a limb pop down like a hauler and I could tell it was something heavy that stepped on the limb. So I just grabbed my bow and got ready. Well, here he come running up. It's his early season full velvet. He come running up the hauler. I drew my bow. He come through there with his tongue hanging out. I guess he was being run by some coyotes or something, maybe I come before draw on him. He's at 22, 24 yards. I'm bad, he's not stopping whistle, haulering at him. Hey, hey, hey, he didn't even look at me. So I just kind of put on his brisket punch to trigger. What are they? Yeah. Yeah. And it gut shot him and he went probably on an eight hundred yards. We had to bring a dog in and find him. Oh my God. Yeah. And with that muzzy, those muzzys from the factory, they're sharp as, you know, they're really sharp, but that deer bled so much. I mean, it looked like you took a milk jug to there with blood and yeah, and it was the whole way to the deer. I didn't need the dog, but I knew I hit him back. So I gave him like 10 hours and I had a buddy just happened to have a dog. I was like, man, come on, let's put him on the trail. Yeah. Let's see. Like me. I shot thunderheads growing up. Oh, yeah. Both still forced, but they were so daggone brittle every time he shot a deer with them, the blades would snap, but they were ungodly sharp. And dad was like, my dad was like, well, he's shooting such low poundage. He's a kid. He's 10 years old and he's like, I want something that penetrates, you know, and then I went to the thunderheads. I never killed a deer with the muzzy. I bought some, but I like the, the thunderheads just because they were sharp and I mean, but it's six and one hand half a dozen the other. The one thing that the, where the muzzies were way better was he shoot eight deer with them and that chisel tip head, it wasn't on a break and it was a lot more durable than the thunderheads. But I just, I don't know. Right now people's paying these crazy price for brought muzzies are like 16 bucks for a three pack now. I know. Because nobody wants to buy them anymore. No, they don't. And they, they killed, they were a killer head as one of the top selling heads for years. And if you're both tuned well, those, those fly. I mean, you know, growing up, I didn't, the first, my dad likes him. My dad didn't hunt. Um, you know, my dad's killed two deer to this day and they was all because, well, one of them was all because I made him go and the other one was because he wanted to go drink beer in the blind, my uncle. Yeah. So I get it. Yeah. I do too. I ain't saying I ain't done that before myself. Exactly. Yeah. Like I said, my uncle and my cousin, my cousin 11 years older than I am and they were both big hunters. My first deer I killed in 1998, 10 years old in a tree stand by myself. I never, I never got to hunt with my dad or never set in a blind or a stand on my cousin's your uncle. It was always. Do you want to go? You buy yourself. Yeah. We're going to find you a spot and this is where you'll go. Mm hmm. And I got it. I got a funny story. I take a minute. My first deer was a four-pointer, a big four-pointer. I mean, he's a, he was a hoss up for, he was a three and a half year old deer. Mm hmm. And uh... Which is normal for here. Yeah. That's normal. Like you people from the Midwest that listen to this, I mean, we could have four year old four-pointers. No, they might be big. Yeah. They might be big. But yeah. This deer was 170 pounds and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Four-pointer. Yeah. But uh, I killed him. And go hook my tree lounge. I'm 10 years old. This is the first generation tree lounge. Oh, the one that like stuck 14 feet out for the tree. This son of a bitch had the bow platform on it too. So hit weight 80 pounds. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I understand. I got in the stand that morning. We got there about 30 minutes before daylight. I got in the stand that morning and I couldn't move it. Yeah. I got the top piece. I, I shimmed it up to where I was about six foot off the ground. Yeah. Yeah. I thought I fucking done something right there. Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, you did to be able to lift that. I don't even know if I can lift that thing up when I was 10 years old. But uh, I got turned around and I was like, I look down and I was like, Hey, I'm pretty good. I pull my 30-30 up. I was like, you know, I'm good now. I wasn't in the stand, seven minutes. I don't know how dude didn't hear me. I was beating and clanging around with that thing, man. Pull my gun up. It hit the damn bow stand on the tree. Yeah. Shit show from the beginning. That's when you have the best luck. Yeah. Yeah. It was like the God smiled down on me and said, I'm, I'm going to bless this young man right here. Yeah. I'm going to a lot of fire in his ass is what it done. Yeah. And uh, I got turned around and sit down and pull my gun up and I looked around and I seen it. It was that quick. Yeah. He come walking down the road bed, turned dead, broadside walking right straight from me 40 yards. Boom. It was over. Yeah. 11 years older than me, the property that we hunt or we're hunting is his dad's. Yeah. Uh, northern part of the MacDowell County and uh, he had never killed a deer. Yeah. And we hung together a lot, you know, since I like eight years old and my cousin had never killed a deer. Yeah. But back then, there wasn't a lot of deer up there. No, there still isn't a lot of deer now. Well, there is a lot more than I used to. Yeah. Yeah. 20 years ago. But there isn't, there isn't nothing. You know, the back then you done good to see three deer in a season. And that's, that was a good year. Mm hmm. Um, but I killed the deer, I didn't contract a climb down. I just jumped out of the freestand. Yeah. I went over there. You're still kicking. I didn't give him. Yeah. I was 10 years old. Yeah. How do you know, you don't know any better at that point. Yeah. I mean, hell, sometimes I still do it. I'm 33 years old. I unloaded my gun. I did. I did do that before I jumped. My gun. I stay on that bow platform. I was like, hell, ain't far. I just jumped. Yeah. Went over there. I ain't got the knees for that anymore. No. No, I know. I don't want my ankles. Both of them would give out. Um, but went over there, we got the deer, you know, got it back home and stuff. And I was as proud as I could be of that foreponder and my cousin got mad as hell. Because he told me to go hunt his freestands. Yeah. He was like, because my stand was, you know, back then there was three of us at 130 acres. Mm hmm. My tree stand was at the far end of the back property and, uh, my cousin at morning, he's like, if you want to, you can just go hunt my tree lands. I'm going to go hunt this other spot. So like I said, my cousin got mad as hell. He didn't speak to me for two days. Are you serious? I'm dead. Seriously. That you just have to know. Oh, yeah. I mean, that's understandable. He, he got mad. He got really upset. My uncle was proud of me though. He was tickled to death, you know, um, but, uh, yeah, that was, that was a story of my first year. That was what lit the, that lit the fire. That lit the fire. And it can't be put out. No. Not at all. It will be. I was, uh, I was talking to this old man a few years ago when I was at work and, uh, he had a ton of deer heads and everything like that. And I said, man, you're going to, where are you going to go this year? Because he used to travel out west and stuff. And he said, I ain't there. 110 years. I said, what? Why? And he goes, it's just not fun anymore. Well, what do you think? He goes, I'm 62 years old and he said, I've killed every deer and that you can imagine, you know, he had a one deer that was probably in the one fifties, but he had a ton of, you know, deer like this right down here, you know, 100 to 120 years deer, you know, and he's like, man, it's just not fun for me. He said, one day you'll wake up and you'll realize the same thing and me sitting there thinking on, at the time, my dad was like 65 and knowing my dad would give up everything for a deer hunting. I'm like, and he's got a wall full of deer. I mean, shit ton of them, he's killed hundreds of them and I'm like, man, I hope I never wake up and posted a video a long time ago of a tour of your dad's basement. Mm hmm. Yeah. I've seen that long before I ever met you. This was, was it on YouTube? Yep. Yeah. Deer amounts. Yeah. That was years ago. That was like, it's still on there. I don't remember how long it's been. I've seen it, but I remember it being, I knew it was in Western North Carolina somewhere. I think it was 14 years ago when I posted that video. Yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah, that was, I mean, imagine, I mean, 14 years of killing deer. I mean, it's even better way more than that now and it's, yeah, I did. I don't, I don't know why I did it. But I was like, I think I did a video, I'd shot a six-pointer with my recurve and didn't find it till the next day or whatever. And what I did was like, cause I didn't know anything about YouTube or video and I tried, you know, and I was like, oh yeah, well, I'm going to stop the, I'm going to stop the camp video. I'll update you guys if I find the deer and I was down in the basement talking and you could just see the row of horns and I had like four or five messages right then like as soon as I like, I mean, within an hour of me posting that and saying, Hey, we please do a tour of your dad's basement and like, and I went upstairs to show his big ones, like the mule deer in the elk and went downstairs and showed all the deer horns and my dad's like, well, why did you do that? I'm like, I don't know. I thought it was kind of cool. Yeah. I was, I was a teenager and I was like, I thought it was kind of cool. People want to see your deer heads. And he's like, don't be showing people all my damn deer heads. I mean, he goes, you realize how much money I have amounts people coming here and robbed that shit. I'm like, oh, I didn't really think about that. And how that I'm older, I can never do that shit. My uncle killed about a 90 inch eight pointer and yeah, he killed it like 92 or three or something like that way back and I remember used to go to my uncle's house just to look at that deer. Like that was, I had, that was like the biggest thing I've ever seen, you know, well, yeah. And big old dark chocolate rack. I mean, he was a pretty deer, you know, and, but I remember just going up there to look at that deer head and just thinking about one day, man, I'm going to see a deer like that. I'm going to kill a deer like that. That was, that was my goal. Yeah. And, you know, when I was 16, got my license, man, Katie bar the doors, yeah, I had eight or nine different pieces of property, you know, and, and I, I hung him on sign, found my own deer, you know, and, uh, like I said, my, my cousin uncle, they like, let me go hunt you, let's go hunt this piece of property and I took on a few times and they killed some, they killed some deer. My cousin finally killed a deer the next year after I killed the four pointer. Yeah. After he got done pouting. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He had sore eyes over that one, but, uh, yeah, I mean, I can say that it, if it ever comes to where I don't get excited, I'll quit, but I don't think that's gonna cause no, because that, I mean, I eat, sleep, breathe, deer on, like to the point where it's like my wife is like, you have a problem and, you know, I have a kind of a small job in it now and I'm like, I'm constantly thinking like every time we lay in bed together, she's looking up and scrolling through deer pictures and stuff like that, but which I don't see now. I'll tell you why, what's changed things here so much lately and I, and I think you'll agree with this. Deer hunting is not what it was 25 years ago. You know, you didn't, I think people got a lot more bored with it back then than they, then they do now. Yeah. And I think that a lot more people and more apt to quit deer hunting from a long time ago, because they, they hunted all these years. They didn't have trail cameras and I'm like, I have, I have mixed emotions about trail cameras up. I love them one day and I hate them the most and I think everybody can agree. They feel the same, but I think a lot of people, like the older generation, when they didn't have that and if they weren't willing to adapt to or change to it and they're not seeing deer and people are losing land to leases and things like that and it's like making it where it's not fun for them anymore and, and you've got to have money to have prime places anymore and it's, it's, it's really changed the game. But for me, like with social media and, and cameras and everything like that, I'm constantly looking at it. It's constantly, I mean, I'm looking at TikTok every single day and I'm watching something to do with deer hunting or her YouTube or Instagram and, and then this podcast and, and, and checking trail cameras and, and talking to all my buddies, sending pictures and stuff for their trail cameras and, and I'm like, okay, like, I think it, there's enough engagement in it. There, there's so many ways to engage in it now where they're wanting back then, like you didn't have the cell phones to be texting your buddies. Hey, what do you see? And, you know, you didn't have that. So people just get bored with it because like you said, 25 years ago, if you hunt in McBough County and you saw a deer, you did something big news. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Man, I seen, I seen two bucks today. I shot at a spike buck one time, four times. Yeah. With a bow. Yeah. That was the story. I'm gonna tell you. Me and my uncle was walking to the, going to the woods when we had to walk down some rail tracks, drop off the side of it and it was just laurel thick as it was thick in the back of there. And I ripped the side off the front of my bow. Ooh. I had one of those old plastic true gloves on my, I'm a friend of a high country. Oh, dude. I remember those days. And, uh, man, my uncle Stan was right off the side of the railroad tracks. Well, mine, I had another 300 yards to go to my tree stand and I was like 11, 12 years old, scared the death of the dark. I mean, I was horrified to walk to my tree stand that morning and, uh, we, uh, we went by his stand. He went off and I had a flashlight and I had to go across this little holler and then he hit a road bed and goes down a couple hundred yards from my street stand. And I don't know why I got that, more than I go in my stand. After I left my uncle, I got that road bed. I just had that feeling and something was watching me and I took off running my uncle. My uncle was in his tree stand. He said, all I seen was that damn flashlight just bouncing through the woods. He said, you're just running through the like a damn deer. Yeah. And, uh, well that, like I said, I ripped my side off from my bow and I got to stand that morning and, uh, I was in a 15 foot ladder stand and there's a little spike buck come out there, the feeder. And I knocked there. I had an air knock. And I drew back on and I was trying to look down the air and she, I shot that deer four times before he finally had enough of my shit and took off. But it was arrows. I mean, the arrows are stuck in the ground just like that. My uncle, he come to my tree stand and to get me, you know, because he told me that was the thing. You didn't get out of your stand till I come get you. Yeah. He sent me off one of my grandpa would tell you that and I'm like, I have to poop and all my. My uncle came out there and he looked at the arrows and the little open and where I was in. He said, look like a fucking property markers. I shot every hour I had it that way. Dude, I was hunting with my buddy, Petey, one time and, um, and if he listens to this, I know he will, we're sitting in a tree stand and we're like, anything goes, we're gonna film it. We don't ever, anything goes and the word like 17 or 18 years old, we didn't give a shit. We was going to fill a tag. Yeah. And, um, here comes this little spike we had now is watching this apple tree and it was apple tree was like 45 yards in mill of this dairy field and here comes the spike and Petey is like, I'm going to kill it. I'm like, are you sure? He's like, I took it. Yeah. Anything goes. It's like, all right. Well, the deer comes in and it gets an apple and it's the deer's, uh, 44 yards. He draws back and let me see. He shoots over it. He shoots over the deer at 40, 40 yards. I'm like, what are you doing? And Petey's a dead nuts with the both. I mean, like he don't miss much like ever. And the deer like runs like four or five steps and drops the apple out of his mouth. Runs like four or five steps and it like turns around and looks and it sees his apple and it goes running right back to the apple, starts eating it again. And Petey said, damn it. I don't know what to do. And he's put his 40 yard pen likes right in the top of the lungs again, let it, let it eat. But he shot right over it again. I was like, what? I got all this, every bit of this on video, a deer runs back to the same spot, turns around and goes right back to that same apple. And both of his errors are sticking a foot apart. And I'm like, Petey, put your 40 yard pen under the deer. He's like, what? I said, just put it under the deer and he shot it and he drilled it that time. And he had bought, he bought a new boat or no, sorry, he upped the weight. Like he was shooting 65 pounds and he put 70, 70 pound mods on it, 75 pound mods elite mods. When it's 75 pounds, he started shooting a lighter era and he never moved to the site. He said, well, my 20 was still on. So I assumed the rest of us all know, I was like, you don't like their pal. Yeah. You dumb ass. He shot. Like he basically put a 30 yard pen on it, killed it. But what was so funny was the deer. You can see it. It's run up there, you know, five yards in turn, come back, start eating up on my head. The deer had a damn death sentence, man. He did. And I ended up killing another bucket as a, as a six-pointer, and it's that third one from the bottom right there. Um, I killed that little six-pointer like a ride after it and they died like five feet apart. And I felt bad, you know, I was like, damn, Petey, why don't we shoot these two little ass bucks? Okay. But, but it was funny. It was the story, I guess. But he, him, this. That was hilarious. I shot a deer with a recurve at five yards and it, like, cut the side of its neck and it runs down at 35 yards and starts like shaking its head real bad. And I just aimed high and I shot and I drilled it. I'm like, how the hell did I miss it at five and drill it at 35 with a damn recurve? Uh, yeah, man, the, the, those old stories like that, man, it is, it's fun to go back to them and really think about it, but she, like my, I'm grinning so damn hard, I know my cheeks are hurting. My buddy, Jason, he's a, he's several years old. He's been like a second man to me. Uh, now he was, he's big in the hunting and he was the, he was the one that I looked up too much growing up because he killed some, some dandies for our area and, uh, he was hunting a piece of property. He killed 138 inch 10 point up there in 1996. He was hunting a piece of property and had some older guys that hunted that same piece of property. There were 20 acres, uh, two older guys or brothers, I've known them all my life and, uh, they were a little older than him and, uh, real pretty hardwoods, big fields and stuff. They were hunting, well, Jason had his stand there and then they, they come in and kick this corn pile around, took his tree stand and I mean, just basically every time he'd do something, they'd go there and shit on him, you know, cause they, he had a pretty spot or this and that. Finally, he goes to the back side of the property and to the awful, it's looking shit you ever seen and them guys never would hunt back there and they was like, well, you know, you can go back there and I'll let you want to. We don't, we don't mess back here. He went back there in the second city's in there. He killed up big 138 10. Oh, goodness. Yeah. And pissed them boys off. Well, then they started trying to come back and hunt that piece, you know, hunt the back side of the property with him and it just ended up, he, he killed another pretty good eight pointer off of it and then just moved on and it was like, you know, it ain't worked to shit that I'm getting from these guys that are jealous of the big babies all it was. Yeah. The podcast that just launched to the buddy. My own talk about jealousy and the hate and stuff I get that people get just for killing big deer, man. It's, it sucks. It sucks. It's ridiculous. I don't know. Cause like what Dawson was saying is like, I can't do anything where there's good or bad. I mean, you, you going to, you're going to catch jealousy and that's why I hunt by myself a lot. That's why I don't post anything on social media. You've been friends on Facebook for, you know, a little while, but I'm sure you probably went back and I posted a few hunting pictures on there, but very rarely do I mean, I've killed it here every year for the past, you know, eight or 10 years and I don't post it. Yeah. And I've got a few buddies that are like that that just, I mean, held my number one hunting buddy. Doesn't have a Facebook. He doesn't have Instagram. Doesn't have any of that. Doesn't have any social media whatsoever. And I lied to you, he does have a Facebook, but it's not like he don't post that he killed anything or whatever on it. And that's which I think is smart. Now I do it. I post everything, but I don't care. Yeah. Like I don't care. I don't get a lot of social media hate, but I don't like calls controversy. Right. Like own, own social media. Well, it's not that I care it's not that I care what people think or this. I'm just not, I get, I get on my fiance about that I just, I don't want everybody doing everything about my life. I just, you know, I mean, there's already enough out there. Exactly. It's already enough out there. You know, especially this now, I got a group of friends that if I kill something, yeah, sure. I'm sending them a picture right away or usually most of them isn't coming to the woods with me. Yeah. Exactly. But I just never have been a big social media person, you know, and that's, and I think it's good. I mean, if you have it now, you're never going to be, I mean, I kind of had to a little bit with my sponsors in the archery. Yeah. I mean, that's understandable. Yeah. I mean, you're, I mean, you're traveling ASAs and you, if you ever do podium, or you want to go back into I am, but like I said, I'm going to work my way up to it. I, I'm definitely not going to start out in no pro class. So. Well, the good thing is about what I've learned about tournament archery. There's no really age limit. No. There's always a class for your age. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you could literally pick, never have shot a bow before, pick up a bow today and five years from now, be signing a contract where you shoot a bow for a living. Yeah. As long as you're willing to do it. If you got the time, yeah, you can do it. Yeah. If we take a break. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So, but anyway, I kind of forgot what we were, what we were on, had to take a few minute break there. We were on some kind of ramble. Yeah. I know. It was pretty cool. I key. Yeah. I didn't know that you knew anything about. So I have, I have a little, if any of you mobile hunters out here know what a windwalker ultralight is. I've got five of them. So, and then he's just looking at one of them and he wants one. If so, if anybody's got one for sale, because I'm not selling him one, I'm not selling one of mine, those are, those are, those are a Hallmark or the, oh, I mean, I don't know. I think Hallmark. It's the old school, old, old, old school stuff. If I knew what I know now 20 years ago, I'd have a pile of. I know. At one point, like there was a, so I found a guy on a Facebook marketplace. He's in Michigan. He had 10 of them for sale. And I said, I'll buy all 10 of them. I was like, I want them. And then he was like, well, five of them were spoken for or whatever. And then I ended up buying, I was able to buy three of them and, and I still have, I still, he had a couple of limits as well. I bought a couple of the limits and a couple of the, the windwalkers and I've sold, like I sold to one of the limits and one of the windwalkers and I, I like, look at them because I have so many of them. I don't need that many. And honestly, I hate to say this. Okay, we'll just talk about tree stands for a little bit before we wrap this up, dude. These old stands like that are badass, but I'm not going to put my kids in them. No. I, I, like I will sacrifice my wife and my time, you know, for that, but, but I'm not going to put my kids in. There's too many, like no vix is, is when I'm going to start switching to, I'm a saddle hunger. I know tree diaper where I can't say nothing. I got one too. Everybody use me shit, but, uh, you know, I don't, I'm not one of these, you know, I watch it on YouTube and that's what I got to have. So I'm not that type of guy. Yeah. Um, I got good equipment. I pay good money for good equipment because it works, you know, you know, um, I use cruiser, I'm an ambassador. That's what I have. Yeah. Um, they, uh, they actually just sent me a new one four days ago. Yeah. Um, I got a couple of tethered saddles, uh, trophy line, I tried them all and, uh, but I'm a diabetic and I've got neuropathy in my legs and feet and I don't grab a pen and I'm sure you're on it. Yeah. Um, so I don't, I don't have a really good feeling in my legs and feet. That's why I was talking about these boats earlier. They got the ankle support system in them and that helps me a lot in the woods, not even ground. I have some crispy nabatas for that same region. Yeah. Um, but, uh, well, I don't have diabetes, but I have problems where I broke my legs and stuff. I don't have to worry about it, but I think it's safer for me cause I, I climb up with tree ups. I was a lineman for quite a while. Um, so I just carry a pair of hooks in and a, uh, lineman's belt, I climb with hooks mostly if I don't use sticks, but, uh, I use hooks a lot to get to it, but in the saddle, for me, it's safest. It's not. I understand. Yeah. I get it. I can't feel my feet real good. Thank you for making me feel like shit. You know, it's just, thank you. Thank you, David. No, I was kidding me. But it's safe for me. Like I said, I got a family to get back to, you know, I, I want to, I want to have success. I want to, I want to be safe and make it home, but, um, but that's the, that's the safest way for me. Yeah. So that's, that's why I want to, I want it out of want. So like, you know, I'm six, I'm six one, 225 pounds and there's a little bit of windwalker ultralizer. They're, they're tough on my knees. So like I've had a couple of small knee injuries that I never got fixed that I can feel and whenever I'm sitting, like if my knees are kind of bent too far back or whatever, it's kind of like riding in a, in, riding in a vehicle for a long way to do it. I can't, I can't hardly do it. It killed my knees. And then, um, I have to be driving so my feet are extended. And, um, like the saddle is, I hunted out of it more last year. I've had it for two years. Um, whenever I was like with grid archery, um, buddy, Dustin Helton, I was kind of on that team and they chatted sent us some, you know, from, uh, from cruiser and I still have that same one. And, you know, out of all the ones I've tried trophy line and the cruiser are the two best that I've sat in and I got the cruiser one for free. So obviously that's what I went with. And, and so I sat, I sat in that thing and, and I've tried it. I don't know. I don't know why I guess just cause I, I don't, I don't practice with it in the summer. I don't do anything. I just take it with me. It's always in my truck. It's always in my truck. Cause I don't know how many times I've accidentally left my tree stand at home or whatever, because I don't have set stand in the woods and I just go and hang my stand every time and take it down every time. And, uh, because I want the wind and the, in the food and the fresher sun, but like with that cruiser or what, or with any type of saddle that I've tried, I move a lot. And that saddle causes me to move a lot. And like I, I can, I'm a busy body. I can't say it's still. Yeah. So that's, that's, I'm not going to say it's caused me some issues, but it's going to, it's going to cause me some issues. I'm going to get picked out of a tree and the five times I hunted out of a saddle last year, I got picked out every time and it wasn't because I was moving. It's just, cause I'm sitting so far off the side of a tree. Well, I don't mind heights. So I'm usually 30 plus feet. Oh, that's where I want me. I'm 15 to 18. Yeah. I'm not a single of the, yeah, yeah, I get that and I don't disagree with that, but I don't, I'm not a huge, I'm not the wind guy. I mean, I pay attention to the wind, but it's like, it seems to me like once I get 30 feet plus the wind just, it goes up mostly. Yeah. Your thermal is rising. Yeah. It carries my scent differently. But yeah, I always, I always try to get as high as I can get. And, you know, as I'm going up, I'm looking to see, okay, am I, am I too high, am I? Am I above the canopy? Yeah. It's going to cause me issues. We're shooting. We'll see. Like I want a lot of close, really tight quarters. I have a few places where I can shoot 60, 70, 80, 100 yards in the woods if I wanted to, but like with a bow, obviously I can't shoot that far. I'm not going to shoot past 60 yards. But the thing is, is in the situation, I'm usually 25 to 30 yards is my farthest shot. So my canopy's really thick. Yeah. I can't get high. And I own a lot of mountainous terrains. So if I'm in a saddle and I'm 15 foot high, one side is 12 foot and the other side is 20. Yeah. Out of the tree. And like where I've usually sit above the deer sign just because I have a lot better look, sitting above deer sign than I do below it, because I don't like them coming down, looking, I'll level with me. But any deer that does come down, usually I have my back to them, because I'm looking off down in the holler, you know, and I've just had, I've had, I've been, I lied to you. I said I've been spotted every time I didn't get spotted twice. One time, because I didn't see any deer. And the other time is because I always saw like two and they were 25, 30 yards out and they just went on. But, you know, I think that they're, if you're going to say any fad that's happened or anything that's happened to the hunting industry, I mean, they've been around for years and years and years, but all of a sudden the fad in the last eight years, seven, eight years, I think it's a good thing that it came out because they are safer than tree stands. Yeah. Like John Eberhard, he's been hunting out of the saddle since like 81. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're safer than tree stands. Yeah. I mean, you are, if you're, if you're smart and you're double hooked in and everything. Usually I'm not smart in a tree stand, I mean, I'm very smart. I just don't care, like, like most, I don't hardly ever wear a safety harness, like ever. And, and you know, well, my wife, when we got married, she made me promise that it like basically wasn't in the vows, but it was pretty much in the vows that I will start wearing safety harness. Cause I mean, I have, I have a wife and two kids, but I don't hardly ever wear a safety harness. I mean, hunter safety system, if you're listening to this, you can send you blues, a safety harness. I have one by just hate it. I hate wearing it. It's just too constricting, but where I have noticed with the saddle, sometimes if I take it, I'll instead of using just like a little bit of platform, I'll use a, that windwalker. Yeah. And I sit down a tree stand a long time and I can sit down the other end of my buddy can show me because I use my saddle as my safety harness. And the way he has this set up, he said, I just step through it and he goes, I'm not going to hit the ground. He said, I might flip upside down. He said, but I'm strong enough. I can pull myself up the way, you know, and which, and if the way I have my saddle set up, I'm not going to fall any lower than what where my, my platform is anyway. Yeah. So I can lift myself up. I had a long, well, form of a small long, well, I think much bigger than a windwalker. The 25s. Yeah. And I use it sometimes as my saddle platform. I'll, I'll saddle hunt out of that. And, you know, if I get tired of standing there leaning, I'm a leaner when the saddle. I don't sit down or anything in it, but I've turned around and sit down in my tree stand just because it's so small. I mean, hell, it's not much bigger than an Excel platform, you know. But what do you do to combat like, I have a problem. Okay. Even with that cruiser platform, they have the best platform out there as far as like angle. Yeah. Got the angle down. Yeah. I got one of them. Dude, it hurts the bridge of my feet. So bad leaning on it so much. I mean, I have those crispies. I have them. These has got like reinforced soles in them and so does my summits. I don't have issues with them, but I can't feel my feet. So maybe that might be. Yeah, that's true neuropathy is a bad thing, but it can be all right in some situations, but dude, like seriously, like after 20 minutes of me leaning, like my feet sort of hurt. Have you ever angled your platform down? Mm-hmm. Because I'll stand on my platform. Well, you can still stand on it if you put just the right amount of angle on it. You can stand on it and be comfortable, but also a lot more comfortable when you're leaning and you know, get it to where your feet come. Like I said, dude, I don't, I don't really know much about it. Like I set my platform like a tree stand like it. I want it level because if I have to turn around and stand on my back against the tree, I want to be able to stand there. A lot of the trees that I hunt, when I go up to set my platform, I'll still put a screw instead on each side of my platform. Mm-hmm. Platforms here, screw and step here, screw and step here. It takes you out to make a step. Yeah. And I can, I don't have to turn around and stand on my platform, put my safety harness or put my strap over your shoulder. My tether over my shoulder. I don't, I don't do that. And I can still shoot 360 degrees, but with the steps, I can just let out a little slack and go to one side of the tree or the other. So I'm going to ask you this before we end it. You're big on accuracy, obviously you're a tournament archer. Accuracy is your number one thing. Accuracy at distance and saddle, I don't think can be in the same conversation. Oh yeah. Am I wrong? I've killed several deer over 50 out of the saddle. Okay. And I don't leave eye on side of me as the best archer in the country. Yeah. And possibly the world, but like what? I think when it first came out where it became, like I said, I know saddle has been around for years and years and years, but when it first, when it became popular over the last 10 years, there was a lot more wounded deer than what they were out of a tree stand. And just my opinion, I don't have stats, I don't have numbers, I don't know if this is really true, but this is something that I believe that I think whenever the saddles came became popular, people were not knowing how, like because you form is huge for you. Form is huge for me. And they're all in back the same way every single time. Now, in hunting situations, you can't do that, right? Coming from a trained guy like you and a guy like me, I'm not, I'm not tournament trained. I am, but I'm not in your, not, not to your standards, but dude, like I want to know that when I'm in that tree stand, the last thing I have to worry about is are my feet solid. Here's my opinion on it. When I'm in the saddle and I'm leaning out, say, you know, look at it as a clock face, if I'm shooting anywhere from six o'clock to 12 o'clock, when I lean out on my saddle, I'm in a perfect tee. Okay. And the stand, they always tell you to bend at the waist. Yep. And the saddle, you're already, I mean, you're already straight, you're already in a tee. I have no issue. Okay. I practice out of my saddle. Okay. I do do that. And it may just be me, you know, just me not practicing out of the saddle enough. I've never killed a deer out of the saddle. It, I've killed, I don't know, I guess every deer that I've killed in the past, maybe but three in the past seven, eight years. Okay. Now, most of them in the crossbow. Yeah. Crossbow hunting out of the saddle. And that's hard as hell. It's like holding up a rifle that has here. It's different. Well, my rifle that I hunt with, now don't get me wrong, I'm a bow hunter through and through. But I'm like you. We're riding next, boss. When, when, when gun season comes in, I'm carrying that, I'm carrying the boom stat. I'm grabbing something that barks loud. Yeah. That string noise a little loud on that two 70 Matthews. It's, it's usually a rim to model seven, two 43. That's what I hunt with. I have, I have, I have a, a regram 77, I have a Remington model seven 88, two 43, and a two 22. I got a seven 88 30 30. Oh, that's, that's hard to find right there. But like, you know, we can, we can dive into it for what to like the thing is like the reason why I say it, and I think it's a decent conversation to have people were going super heavy areas and hunt out of saddles. And I thought in my head, like, when that first came out, I was like, well, yes, because people weren't taking over 30 or shots because you can't be as accurate in a saddle. There's no way because you're swinging, you're free flowing swinging in the air, and that's what's just in my head. Like, if you take, you stand on a, just say in a, a millennium stand, big ass platforms, and that deer is I level with you at 40 yards. And you put yourself in that saddle and he's standing, I level with you. You have got a can't and you've got your swinging when you're, when you're standing on, on a platform, like just standing straight up, you're not swinging. So that's one less factor. Now, if you've practiced out of that, then maybe, maybe you're not, maybe, maybe that's not even worth having a conversation, but I don't, I don't know, I have a different set of standards. Because like I said, you stand up on that big millennium platform, you feel your feet, your stable, I stand up on it, I don't trust myself. I know in my head that I can't throw it. My balance is not what it was. Yeah, you don't have that balance. 10 years ago, no. Well, let's just say this as a whole, like it just as a whole, like everybody out there, like this, even, even, like I think saddles are better for close quarters than where saddles are as good or better is why I'll say it is as good or better for deer hunting, for, for whitetail hunting with a bow at close quarters within 30 yards in them is what I mean by close quarters. Like you're not. When you get into that 40, 50, 60 yards for the average man, the average man, you're better off to be in a platform stand. I can't disagree with that. I mean, for your average, but I say that if you have saddle hunted for a year or two, then you practice out of your saddle, like I got a big front porch at home that I got some big, like six by six posts on, I hook my saddle up to the one of those posts and shoot in my yard. And that, you know, people, people like you were talking about, you know, you swing in the saddle and this net. Well, if you got your feet steady on the platform, and usually when I shoot, I pull my tether up a little bit and get a little closer to the tree because closer I am to the tree. The more stable. But like I said, I have no issue with shooting out of saddle because I've done it so much, but I could see where somebody that hadn't spent a lot of time in a saddle, you know, the first year or so could have issues. Yeah. I mean, like I said, I've had one for two years. I've never killed a deer out of one and it's not the confidence that I have the confidence because if you would have, I wish I had a camera with me every single time I've ever tried to do with a boat, if you had seen what I have done in a tree stand to shoot a deer. So that little, that exact windlocker that is sitting right there, there was one time me and a buddy of mine were hunting, it was a limb in front of me. And I'm like, I have got to get rid of this limb. I hung the stand my four day lot, man, Ethan, we were in the tree and as it was getting daylight, I was like, all right, I'm going to squat down and I sat my butt in the platform. No safety harness, nothing, I'm probably 22, 23 feet high and I'm holding on to the bars of that and just leaning over and I finally clip, like I clip off that limb when I clip it off, there's an eight pointer standing there and like 20 yards looking at me. I'm like, Ethan, hand me my bow. He's like, what? I said, hand me my bow and he hands me the bow and I like the deer kind of like it was just like gray light. And so because I mean, we got in our earliest shit, it's just like gray light and I grab my bow and I swung around and I spread my legs as far as I could and I drew back and I shot, I was like, hey, 22 yards and I shoot, I shoot like 18 inches. No, farther next, I shot the deer in the ass, he ran 30 yards and died. I mean, a little bitty, eight pointer and he's already, yeah, I drilled that for more artery, but, but like going back to what we were saying is like, I have done some stupid things in a tree stand, but it is a solid bigger platform where you can get your feet six, like even whenever I was learning to shoot tournament archery, whenever I was learning just to shoot archery in general, the number one thing that I learned from my dad and from any other pick, get your feet set, have your feet set have a solid base. If you don't have a solid base, you can't be consistent and the number one thing that you do when you go hunting is waiting for that 10 seconds from when you can draw your bow to when you release that arrow at that whatever deer you shoot, now whether it's a doe or a big buck or a four-pole, it doesn't matter and that's where I have a little bit of an issue with a saddle and it may be, like I said, because of my experience, I can't get set like I can in a tree stand. And I do a lot of close quarter hunting, yes, but I do have some stands where I can shoot a long ways. Brutus, big old hire deer, I killed him at 67 yards, big open field situation. I would never, never even think about taking a saddle to that field, because I will shoot 70 yards and I know if I don't have the confidence at 40, definitely don't have the confidence at 70. What's the farthest you ever shot a deer with a bow? 77 yards. I shot one in Virginia, 89 yards. Holy shit. God. But I mean, you're a target. You're a target. You can do it. You're at camp and a little cabin that a friend of mine had rented, at least the property of the cabin was on it and there was a big long field out beside it and we were sitting there at dinner time one day and looked out there and there was a big old doe standing out there. I stepped down on the porch, rangers at 92 yards, walking into the porch, 89 yards. I dialed my sight to it and my buddy was like, "Why are you going to lame that deer at it? Why are you taking a shot like that?" Yeah. That's a good friend. That's a good friend. Yeah. Of course. I understand. But I was, dude, I shoot 100 yards daily and I was like, "89 yards, she ain't going to hear the bow go off. She might hear the air flying bit by them, but it's going to be too late." I got something we're going to talk about as soon as you say this. I pulled back. I had a lot of knock on there. I released the air. Now I hunt with a hinge. I shoot everything with a hinge. I don't just use a hinge in the targets. Was that release broke, that green lumen up right through both lungs? 12 ringer. Oh, yeah. She jumped up mule kick, ran about 16 steps and she was done and my buddy said, "I never believed it." He said, "Unless I witnessed it with my own two eyes, I would have never believed that would have worked." Yeah. I'm going to say this when we're ending it and I want your opinion on this. I had this conversation with a guy not too long ago, actually, and this comes from like a top two, top three percent of bow shooters. This is not for your everyday shooter. This is a question. If you're just as accurate at 60 as you're at 30, which one's the more ethical shot? Either one. I think 60, and the reason I say 60 is because they don't hear that bow go off. They don't. The only reason why I said that is because of what you said, like that deer is not even going to hear that bow go off. I have spined more deer at 30 from 25 to 40 other yardage than any other other than like right under me. I don't like the 25 to 40 yard shots. Yeah. I don't either. I mean, if the deer is on high alert, they can duck your air at 20. This is, especially if you're shooting less than 275 feet per second. I'm going to catch some hate on that. I have a feeling I'm going to catch some, but if you are just as accurate, and people say there's no way you can be as accurate, I can hit a baseball eight out of 10 shots at 60. Yeah. 30, I can hit a baseball nine out of 10 shots. There's caveats. Everything. Exactly. But is the, and I think it's all situation was the wind blowing at how quiet is it? If the wind's blowing five to 10, obviously 30 is not going to hear your bow go off. But and at 60, I think it's a, it's a situational thing, but if it is a super quiet, no twigs in a way, nothing super quiet, I'd rather shoot it a deer at 60 yards. I would 30. Any day. Call me crazy. That's the thing though, I'm going on a limb to say 70% of both of us don't shoot their bow. Enough. I'm going to say more than that. Probably. I'm going to say 90. I couldn't disagree with that either. 90. I don't shoot my bow. Enough. They go, they'll start shooting their bow in late August and pull it out of the case. It hadn't been, they pulled out from the bed or out of the hunting room or and that's the ones that's going to have a problem with that statement. Yes. I think that it's a, listen, does it sound uneducated to say something like that? Maybe. But here's the thing. I've killed over 100 deer with my bow and I've killed six deer, over 60 yards of my bow, seven deer. The thing is the only thing I say, the only reason why I brought that up was because what you said about they can't hear your bow. They don't see movement as well. They don't. There's a lot of factors now. Are you in a tree stand? Are you in a ground blind? Are you in a saddle? You know, that there's a lot of variations, but if I am standing in one of those big ass, oh, okay. If I'm in a redneck hunt and bladder or a muddy hunt and bladder, whatever, I'm one of those big ass hunt blinds and I have got the best set up ever. I'm shooting at a deer at 50 plus, like people said, I'll let him come close or let him come closer. No, because I have enough faith in my setup and what my ability is, 50, three yards is the same as 30 to me. Both of them shoot a quiet bow. Yeah. My bow is super quiet. My bow ain't super. I mean, my bow is pretty fast. It's 293. It shoots fast. You shouldn't know what the V3? No, I got the VXR. Okay. I shoot 77 and a half pounds with a 465 right there. Still, yeah. You got a modern bow. Yeah. It's quiet. You're not going to, you're not going to beat their ears. Exactly. It's quiet. Here's another thing. I'll say, you're too relaxed at closer yardages. I think so. At 20, 30, you're like, oh, it's 20 yards. If you were like, oh, my God, what happened? Oh, I ain't saying it alone. Yeah, I ain't saying it alone. Are you sure? Or because at 50 yards, I'm like, okay, this deer is 50 yards. I have got to shoot this bow. When he's 20, you're just like, draw back out the pins there. If you don't let it eat, you know. Most people do, yeah. And that's the thing about with like hunting with a hinge, you know, you have to aim it no matter what yardage, because you don't know when that thing's going to go. Well, you have a pretty damn good idea because you've shot it for years and years and years. You shoot a clicker. Yeah. Okay. So the thing is, I think that's going to raise a lot of brows, obviously, and if you don't agree with it, please tell me. And I'd love to have a conversation. Like, well, anybody's listening to this, if you don't, if you don't agree with it, I'm sorry. It's just my opinion. It's the way I feel. I'll tell me it's unethical to hunt with a hinge. It's unethical to hunt with a hinge. I was unethical to hunt with the most accurate tool that you have for shooting with a bone. I said like this, if I hunt with a thumb button or if I hunt with a wrist strap release, it's going to be, I promise you I'm going to kill the deer way more times with that hinge than I will with a, with a button. You shoot what you shoot all summer at a live animal, something that you put your faith into to try to win a dollar bill. I would take that over. I would take shooting that hinge and knowing that if as long as that deer doesn't do something, I know I'm going to do my job. And that's, that's a buddy, another buddy of mine, Colton Green, he hunts with a hinge. And I'm like, there's no way I could do it. Well, I thought about trying it. And I'm like, cause I was really, dude, I had a target panic growing up my whole entire life. I still have it. I've never got out of it, but I adapted to it. Like when I say I punched the trigger, I mean, I might toss him that son of a bitch. I mean, I hit the shit out of it, but my bow arm was steady and I could shoot groups up to 60 yards with it. I get out. I get you out of the target bank. Yeah. I've heard that a lot. I can draw. I've heard that a lot. It's not a, it's not a, my target panic is not a, because I'm not a tournament, I am a tournament archer, but not to that level. When I say I was a snap shooters, as that pen is crossing it, I'm letting it eat. I don't hold for a long time. I just, I don't. It's just not how I shoot. I think I don't think that groundhog hunting and stuff like that, where I had to, I had to let it, like I had to draw back and shoot real quick. It didn't help my target panic because like as soon as that pen crosses, I'm like, it's got to go now because I'm a firm believer you let that pen float. You got to let that pen float, but like what Joe Snyder, Joe Snyder is the king, like one of the kings of getting people out of, out of target panic and I'd love to have a conversation with him and let him watch me shoot. I went to a thumb button and then I kind of got out of that punching the trigger is bad. Like I'll lay my thumb like a dude, I could never, if I laid my finger on a trigger, it's got to go. And it costs me one of my largest deer I've ever shot, like I mean a buddy of mine, he's like, hey, you going to get out of it and I shot a whole tournament season, lay my finger on that trigger and really squeezing it. And like seriously shot good, that's the best you ever shot ever, just squeezing the trigger and I was really trying to hit 12s then. Well, I didn't kill a deer all both seasons. I get to Ohio and it's like middle of November, peak of the rut and I rattle in this mega giant non-porter, mega giant, 50s deer, he's coming in, he's 43 yards, I draw back and I always come down on a deer. I'm a firm believer, it's harder to bring a bow up than it is bring it down. It's causing me to shoot any data week, any data week. Now it's causing me to shoot a deer, shoot deer a little higher, but I'd rather shoot a deer a little bit higher than I would a little bit lower. Just my opinion, it's coming down on that deer and I get a little bit too far, too far down my, it's 43 yards in my 40 RPMs in the heart, oh my, I laid my finger on the trigger. As I, whenever I got set, I laid my finger on that trigger and I was trying to bring that bow up and just my natural instinct just to let that trigger go and I shot it around the bottom of the chest, gets killed by a little girl that following Saturday on Youth Day with the arrow hole in it was like 157, 158 as a non-porter and it was, I mean, so then I was like, I vowed to never squeeze a trigger. Now, the deer I killed in Kansas a couple years ago, I'll shoot a thumb button, the deer was four feet from the bottom of my tree. Whenever I put my thumb on that button, I said, squeeze it motherfucker and I started squeezing, I let it, because I was like, all my pins were in the deer, I was like, I'm not going to shoot lower high in these four feet. And then the, the deer that I killed in North Carolina last year, same situation, I put my thumb on that trigger, I said, squeeze it motherfucker and I let it eat, drill it. And next week, I miss a giant because as I'm laying my thumb on the trigger, I hit it and I shot probably four inches high and the deer ducked. So if I wasn't shot for it, I mean, it like gray the top of his back. My Iowa deer, I draw back the deer's six feet, I draw back, I put a pin on it and I was like, if you, you can punch this, it don't matter. If you punch it, I'm going to drill this deer because he's six feet and I'll lay my thumb on it and say, squeeze it motherfucker, I say it out loud. Instead of stopping my deer, I'd just say, squeeze it motherfucker and they're like, what the hell do these say, you know, but, but like my target panic developed a long time ago and I've had a hundred people like say, I can get you out of that, I can get you out of that and they try and it just doesn't work because it's, it's a mental thing for me. Like when that pin crosses it, it's got to go because I don't, I'm not shooting Vegas shoots. I'm not shooting programs or pro pro tournaments for ASA. Now, don't get me wrong. There's times where, you know, as a hand shooter, you're, you're pulling through shot. There's times I ain't that motherfucker. Yeah. I mean, there, you can, you can punch a hinge. Trust me, I know. I did. I mean, I was the king of it. I shot a hinge for a couple of years. It's, it's absolutely possible to do it. And some people do. So people are good at it, but, you know, I'm the type of person I got to pull through. Yeah. And I really think because I can judge yardage pretty damn well, if I could get out of the target panic, it would take me to the next level, which is still not the level I would need to be to be able to compete in ASA or anything like that. I'm just not, I don't shoot my bow enough to do it. I don't care to be that good at it. I don't like shooting my bow that much, you know, I have so many other obligations with kids and everything. But like I have shot and shot and shot and shot and I'm like, I try to squeeze, try to squeeze now on a dot. I can squeeze it all day. All day doesn't bother me. I don't get tired shooting it. You put fur in front of me. It's a different game. It's a completely different game. My adrenaline pumping, everything like that now. But you say, I will hate to say this in the sounds cocky, but I don't give a shit. If you put a dot out at 40 yards and say hit that dot right now, I don't know if I could hit it, but you put a 130 inch whitetail out in front of me and say, kill that deer, I'm going to kill it. That's where I care. That's another thing that, you know, shooting targets the pen and 12 ring are not where I want to aim on a whitetail, you know, and it's like a, it's a transformation that I got to get my brain into, you know, when I pull back, I'm seeing a 3D target. But, you know, during hunting season, I got, okay, you know, this deer is 30 yards. I'm, I got to put my 30 yard pen on the bottom of his heart because if, you know, the deer is going to react to the shot. Yeah, I hate to say like, I, I kind of disagree with that just a little bit. Just a little bit. I know what you mean by like, shoot, like shoot for the drop, right? Shoot for the drop of the deer. I shoot where I want to hit it because 95% of the time to 99% of the time, you don't know what that deer is going to do. So if he doesn't drop, which like you're ain't, you're still aiming in the vitals, never, never pull out of the vitals, whether the deer is looking at you or not, never pull out of the deer's vitals, because you're just going to cause to, you're just going to wound a deer that way. If he doesn't duck, did that to a giant no high issue with my longboat. I aimed low because I thought he's going to drop and I shoot, I shoot him to the bottom of the chest. Huge 15 boner, but it is what it is. You know, aim, aim where you want to hit the deer, you know, in a way, but like, do you hold on the crease of a deer or do you hold back? Yeah, well, I usually, if I'm shooting a mechanical, I usually hope we'll back if I'm shooting my blades or my exits, I usually just tuck it right in that crease. That's me. And like, I agree with that because a lot of people say, well, you're going to hit that deer in a shoulder like you don't, you don't have the leeway. Yeah, but if I shot expandables, I'd hold about the second rib back. But I don't, I shoot, I shoot something that is going to blow through that deer. I got some iron wheels, and I'm going to play with this year. I got some too. I bought some a few years back. And you get the wide ones? Yes. Okay, good. I was going to say, if you got the regular ones, sell them and get the wives. Yeah, I got the wide ones. Just that single bevel thing is. Mm hmm. I shot, I've shot quite a few deer. I killed my Kansas deer with a single bevel kudu point, killed my eye with deer. I get no, sorry, I lied to you. I killed it with a whack. I'm three blade. And then good brought it. Yeah, yeah, I have the exhales, the big ones. But like, I know the idea with a single bevel is to hit spawn, it'll turn and pop it. That's been debunked. I saw a couple videos where that was debunked. But it's the most penetrating broad head you can buy on the market to this day as a single bevel broad head. I got some of the, what is it, kudu or kudu points? Yeah, that's what I, that's what I hunt with. I have. Okay. Yeah, I have, well, I'm not going to hunt with kudu points this year. I'm going to go to, I'm going to just go back to G5 strikers. I killed, I've killed a pile of deer with G5 strikers. So sharp and they lead me a big enough hole because I don't, I don't like shooting where it makes a whole fucking eight inches long. I don't, I don't know why. Yeah. I've never been on the rage kick. I've lost a couple deer with rage with pretty decent shots. Yeah. Well, David, is there anything else we've went all over with this podcast is we went from target panic to, to ASA's to, you know, shooting its box 18 times, you know, is there anything that you're passionate about that you want to cover anything that you want people to know about you? Nothing I really want to know about me just shoot you both more. That's good. That's good point. I don't play people shoot enough. I think people, you know, these weekend warriors, and don't get me wrong. I work full time. I'm a weekend warrior myself. But, but shoot you both more. Get your kids in the archery. That's a good one. Uh, my fiance shoot, she'd never touched a bow before we got together. Same with my wife Holly. I got a six year old 11 year old, both of them, they loved their bows. We shoot a lot. Yeah. I just say, don't go out here, one deer. Put more. If you're passionate about hunting, put a little more time behind your bow. So what you're basically saying there is, if you really do care about deer, do everything you can to not be the reason why they don't die cleanly, if you're trying to kill them. If you shoot the deer, that makes you happy. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry about, they didn't pay for your tags. Don't worry about these bastards judging. Don't, don't kill what you want to get off the tag. You put the time in, shoot what you want to. Amen. Get behind your bow more than like you say, make them big taters. That's it. He said it, boys. Catch you on the next one. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]
David Kirkland is a local competition 3D archer. On this episode Jordan and David dive into his past accomplishments on the 3D course, a bad motorcycle wreck that cost him years of hunting, and his comeback to 3D archery and bow hunting all together!
https://www.workingclassbowhunter.com/
The HMD Podcast is part of the WCB (Working Class Bowhunter) Podcast Network! Check out the other awesome shows in the family:
Working Class Bowhunter The Victory Drive Firearm Podcast Tackle & Tacos - A Fishing Podcast!
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