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Know Your Enemy

How Republics End (w/ Mike Duncan) [Unlocked]

Mike Duncan (host of the "Revolutions" podcast) joins to discuss the conservative obsession with the fall of Rome — and the real lessons of Roman history.
Duration
1h 15m
Broadcast on
18 Jul 2025
Audio Format
other

This episode from January 2025 has been un-paywalled for your summer enjoyment...

A stock rhetorical trope on the right is to invoke ancient Rome when talking about American decline—often making direct comparisons between the Goth invaders and contemporary immigrants, obsessing over homosexuality and Rome's fall, and more. If their understanding of history isn't very serious, what should we make of these appeals? And are there any "lessons" we should learn from Roman history?

There's no better time to take up such matters than while Matt is in Rome, and there was no one better for him to talk with about them than Mike Duncan, the prolific and brilliant history podcaster; he currently hosts the Revolutions podcast and, especially relevant for the purposes of this conversation, hosted the History of Rome podcast from 2007-2012, a project that led him to write The Storm Before the Storm: The Beginning of the End of the Roman Republic (2017). Matt and Mike discuss the use and abuse of history, how "norms" do and do not matter, the relationship between imperialist foreign policy and domestic politics, the perils of vast income inequality, then and now, and more.

Sources:

For quotes from conservatives about Roman decline: Reagan, Nixon, Buchanan, Vance (and Pete Navarro & Michael Anton)

Mike Duncan, The Storm Before the Storm(2017)

— Hero of Two Worlds: The Marquis de Lafayette in the Age of Revolution (2021)

Alright, welcome listeners to this very special episode of Know Your Enemy. I'm Matt Sitman, your podcast co-host, and I'm not here as always with my great friend Sam of the Bell. That's because it's July, it's summer, and the Know Your Enemy team is having just a bit of a respite here, but we didn't want to abandon you with nothing to listen to, so we're bringing it out an episode from behind the paywall. And the one we chose is an episode that I recorded back in January with the podcaster Mike Duncan. As many listeners know, I spend at least some time most winners now in Rome, and when I do, I always try to read at least one book about Roman history while I'm there, and the one I chose this time around was Mike's book, The Storm Before the Storm, the beginning of the end of the Roman Republic, which he published in 2017. Mike is one of my favorite podcasters. I'm sure most of our listeners don't need much of an introduction to him, but Mike is the host of The Revolution's podcast, and for the purposes of this conversation, from 2007 to 2012, he hosted the History of Rome podcast. If you aren't a listener of his, you should be, revolutions might be my favorite podcast ever. It's up there, and Mike is just incredibly smart and wonderful person to talk to, and you might think, how does the history of Rome relate to the typical themes of Know Your Enemy about conservative politics and the right? Well, we begin by talking about the ways, various figures on the American right in recent decades have deployed analogies to the decline and fall of Rome in order to try to say something about what was happening in the United States, analogizing Rome's fall to our own situation in their own sense of decay and decline of the United States. So we start by discussing those kinds of analogies, kind of the uses and abuses of the history of Rome, especially in American politics by the right. But then from there, we go on to talk about how we should use history, especially Roman history, some of what we might learn from the way norms in their abandonment, if I can put it that way, played out about the relationship between foreign policy and domestic policy, especially empire in the way it can boomerang back, in effect, domestic politics profoundly, in common equality, populism, all these things that are found in Mike's truly excellent book end up figuring into this conversation. I don't think I need to say much more. I do want to thank Mike again for taking the time to do this with me, and I'm sure you'll love it as much as I enjoyed having the conversation with him. Before we get to that conversation, just a few housekeeping items, as always we're grateful to our partners at Descent, they sponsor the podcast, and one thing that means is if you subscribe to Know Your Enemy on Patreon at patreon.com/ Know Your Enemy, for $10 a month or more, you not only get access to all of our bonus episodes, but you also get a free digital subscription to Descent, which you should take advantage of, and also at the $10 a month or more level, you get access to the Know Your Enemy Discord, a kind of vibrant community of Know Your Enemy listeners, and of course for $5 a month, you get access to all of our bonus episodes. We just put one out on Zoroondani's big win in the Democratic mayoral primary here in New York City. We had on our friend, Walid Shaheed, to discuss how he did it and how we should understand it. And as, of course, the Trump administration rolls on, hurdles on, maybe he's better, our bonus episodes are where you can hear most of Sam and I's punditry, as we call it, you know, our takes on what's happening in a more day-to-day sense in American politics, especially. I want to thank our producer, Jesse Burneman, our intrepid producer, who wrangled this into shape back in January. We're so grateful for all of Jesse's work, and we're also grateful to Will Epstein, who does the music for this podcast, which is something we get a lot of comments from listeners about. They love this music, and all credit to Will Epstein. Thank you to him, as always. All right, here's my episode with Mike Duncan about how republics end talking about the beginning of the end of the Roman Republic, and what it might teach us about American politics. It's not what conservatives will tell you that is. Enjoy. All right, welcome, listeners. This very special episode of Know Your Enemy. I'm Matt Sittman, your podcast co-host, and I'm not here, as always, with my great friend, Sam other Bell, but I am here with kind of the OG king of nerd podcasters, history podcasters, Mike Duncan. Mike, welcome to Know Your Enemy. Thank you for having me on Know Your Enemy.

Transcription truncated.

Mike Duncan (host of the "Revolutions" podcast) joins to discuss the conservative obsession with the fall of Rome — and the real lessons of Roman history.