(upbeat music) - Hey there and welcome to the Bringing Business to Retail Podcast. If you're looking to get more sales, more customers, master your marketing and ultimately take control of your retail or e-commerce business, then you're in the right place. I'm Selena Knight, a retail growth strategist and multi-award winning store owner whose superpower is uncovering exactly what your business requires to move to the next level. I'll provide you with the strategies, the tools and the insight you need to scale your store. All you need to do is take action. Ready to get started? (upbeat music) Hey there and welcome to the Bringing Business to Retail Podcasts. Now I don't know how many times I have seen in a Facebook group that somebody posts that their e-com website has been hacked, but they don't mean hacked. What they mean is cloned. Somebody has taken essentially their whole entire website or maybe just a product and the copy and the images and they're impersonating a legitimate brand. And I'll be honest, it was only two weeks ago that I was scrolling through my Facebook feed and a store came up and I had been looking at dining chairs. And if you listen to the podcast, you will know I talked about the dining chairs and this brand came up and the dining chairs, but they were ridiculously low priced. Like I think that's been like $79 when the chairs were four or $500 each. And so I immediately, my red flags flew up and I clicked through and it was obviously a scanned website. However, what I noticed was it looked almost identical. The URL was almost identical and this was a paid ad. And you would think if someone is running a paid ad to a website, but yeah, you would think that Metro had done some kind of protection to make sure that your money was going to a real company, but not in this case. And so I thought this was such an important issue, but I wanted to bring you on someone who knows way more about this than I do. So welcome to the show, Stephen Weigler from Emerge Console. You are going to help us not only protect out Econ websites, but also give us some ideas on what we can do. If we find somebody has taken our websites and cloned them or taken our products or even the look and feel, all those kinds of things and they're using it to impersonate our brand. Thank you so much for your time today. - Well, so it's so good to see you. How you explained it is you explained it very well and it kind of, it was thought provoking for me because a lot of what we deal with in the United States in our legal structure and also Australia or Britain, it doesn't matter. We coming from the common law, the law takes a really long time to pull together. So the law like centuries. And so the law that a lot of us use to enforce some of these things is a lot older and really focused on horse thieves and the idea of maybe stealing an ad or having a candy bar in a store that looks similar. And now we're in the 21st century where everything is exponentially easier and also very electronic and very on a million omni-chim as far as marketing. And so, I don't think thinking about it, the laws really have not necessarily caught up to the type of infringement and type of counterfeiting and piracy that we see in the world. Nora's is the international relations at her and it's all-time high. And so we have an issue also because this is not only coming from just the United States or just Australia, just Britain, it's coming from other countries a lot of times. And so, we have to take into consideration how the laws interplay with each other. And I was gonna say, surely that whole cross border thing becomes very complicated because we read all about in third world countries where there are whole scam farms, like whole buildings with hundreds, if not thousands of people trapped in there whose whole job it is to scam other people's money. And this is just one of the, I think everybody's been on the receiving end of some kind of fraudulent scam potential. I just got the, I finally got the hey mum texts the other day. How old is that? And I finally, well, I finally got it. And I felt, wow, they finally found me. Of course, I was very aware of it. But like you said, that whole, like digital is so hard to keep up with. I mean, AI just in the last sort of 12 or 18 months has changed the game. And I know that if we have time, we'll talk about that. But even being able to, for the laws to be able to keep up with this brings about a bigger issue. And I'm guessing it means that kind of a lot of people are having to go out there and set the precedent and bring these things into the legal realm in order for the laws to change. - I think it super emphasizes what my strategy has always been which is to have a strategy. Even in my practice, I'm faced with the ability to omnichannel market all the time. I'm getting calls from vendors in radio or, you know, less than less, but it web plays, pay to plays. I can go on and I don't have to. And so it's really like, all right, what is first, I think the most important thing is to look at the strength and weakness or what's really important to you in your market identity. I know a lot of my clients focus on e-commerce. And so I can tell you, almost in my sleep, what is important to an e-commerce brand. It's the brand, which the brand is the identity of how a consumer is gonna perceive it. And so it could go into product package and it could go into colors. It's definitely gonna be the name. And how are they gonna find you in e-commerce? The e is electronic. And so it's gonna be a domain. And so already just by knowing in that particular type of industry or even take my law firm, 'cause my clients are all over the United States and the world, the internet's very important for me. It's very important for me to get my mission in branding meshes and everything out there using the internet. So I know that that's gonna be an important part of what I need to protect. But say you were doing lawns. You had a lawn care service that was local. Well, that would be all different set of things that are important to you. You're gonna wanna, you know, if paying your lawnmower is a certain color. So everyone, when you're, you can see the lawnmower. So, and the internet might be just a local type of thing where you have to protect it. And so it really is like you have to know your marketing plan and distill your business. And, or at least have a stake to put in the sand. We're building up a wall to reduce the chances that somebody can take our identity of our brand. And then if something has happened, that we have these legal standpoints, these lines in the sand that we've drawn that show that this is our thing. Is that correct? Yeah. - I think that's a, to take a step back. That's a good way to look at it. It's, it's really like, if you're afraid that you're gonna get infringed upon, which is happening a lot and a lot more, your product's gonna be pirated, your website's gonna be pirated. You're gonna see identical listings on Amazon or Walmart. You're gonna see a Shopify site that's identical. That's gonna be really difficult to take down. So, before that happens, you kinda gotta take a look at, all right, what do I have, and what's important for me in my product identity? Then you-- - There's a really good way of putting it is, what is important? Like, if somebody took this from me, if someone took this from our company, would it affect our brand? Like, would it reduce the amount of sales that we get? Would it reduce the amount of customers that we would get? We reduce the amount of money, but our brand presence, all of those things. So, that, I think you've hit the nail on the head for me, and I think that's such a pertinent thing is, what is important to us when it comes to our business and our brand, that if someone took it away, we'd essentially be screwed. - Yeah, and so then the next one you kinda, and usually you work with an attorney or an sometimes a brander, but to really figure out what's your brand identity? What is the important pieces? And then you kinda look at, I don't have the crown jewels in the Tower of London. So, I don't have to build a security system for that. I have to build a little security system that almost any business, because every business has a brand or a brand identity unless you run private prisons or something, something that who cares what it's called, or you have the care for cancer, I always use an example, 'cause if you have the care for cancer, forget everything I'm talking about, 'cause you're gonna make a ton of money, who cares what it's called? If you can get it out there when it's patent, that would be a patent, but if you get it out there patented, who cares what the rest of it? That's the wall, the patent, instead of doing everything. But most of us don't have the care for cancer, none of us do, and so we're really focused on, all right, let's take little pieces of what's really important, and use four tools that attorneys and others use, which are trademark, which protect the brand. So when you see, I always have people drive by McDonald's and notice in the corner of the McDonald's on, there's this little R, tiny, they don't want you to see it, but it shows everyone that that's a registered trademark, and if you go into a McDonald's, I could buy full Jew and put you in a McDonald's in Perth or Los Angeles, but it doesn't matter, it looks like a McDonald's, so that's all brand identity. And so that's very advanced brand identity, but when I'm saying strategize, everyone has a little bit of uniqueness in brand identity. And so we have to distill it and be able to build a tiny little wall, one or two trademarks, maybe, to focus on that element of a protection, which is for brand. Copyright protects like product packaging, or color schemes, or art work on the packaging. Well, packaging is very important. A majority of the disputes are they copy your product packaging, and if they propagate, that can easily be handled through trademark, I'm sorry, through copyright. So that's copyright, it's a relatively simple application, but you have to know what you're looking for to build that part of the wall. - You said that, first of all, trademark. Now, trademark is going to cost you money, and to me, it is money well spent, and it's gonna take you time. I know for the trademarks that we have, for Scale Your Store and the Retail Academy, I think it took us around about 18 months in the US. Sometimes you get asked additional information, and my attorney looked after that. But copyright is not a thing you pay for, is it? - In the United States, it's suggested that you go through the US copyright office, 'cause you can't sue unless you actually formally get the copyright. But to prepare the application, and we're talking like a $200-something-dollar investment, total, everything. Copyright is cheaper, and takes less time, usually, than Trayvon. The two elements of copyright are, are they original works of art, and are they in a fixed media? So if it moves, that's not a fixed media. But if you could ever fix it, it's a fixed media. So film is a fixed media. - Is a website a fixed media? - Website is a fixed media, but it can get really tricky. So, and these people are paid to sit there all day, every day, and figure out what a fixed media is, and figure out what's original and what's not. And they, unlike trade markets, it's really difficult to do the search. So, that's something that's usually a good idea to talk to an attorney about, 'cause it's on, can get complicated kind of quickly, but it's cheap. The next one is patent. And patent is, you have to get it before, and this is a general rule, before you bring the invention to market. Patents protect inventions. So it can be a design invention. So the Apple iPods are a design, the way they're designed. There's nothing about how they work on that design ban. It's more like, you know what the product packaging looks like. You know what the, when you put it in your ear, how it hangs down, that's called a design ban. The other one is a utility ban. We just talked about the care for cancer. That's a utility ban. You develop the care for cancer, no one has it. And then you get exclusivity for about 20 years, as long as you publish it. If you guys are thinking that you have something that's pan-able, have a discussion with a patent attorney, because my issue with it is, you patent it, you publish it to the world. We're talking about the world of infringement and counterfeiting, that's what today's discussion is about. In patent, you're publishing what you inventing. Well, there are people sitting in every country looking through what the patent published are. They don't care if you patent it or not. I mean, they don't care about the rights. They're going to try and infringe against your rights. You're just publishing it out there. You better be really careful when if you're going to, you're just, to me, you're picking a battle that you might not be able to win. And so, no, I'm not saying I'm not dissing patents. At the point is, you have to really think about it really strategically. To me, that's not my favorable form of protection. The fourth one is trade secret. So, for example, if you have a cookie company that you saw on the internet, the cookie recipe is trade secret. I think that's the biggest source. The big, maximum, trade secret. The Coca-Cola formula, the whole thing. No one knows what's in these things. And so, they make a big deal about not that much. I think the Coca-Cola formula is probably a big deal. It's a really underutilized form of protection. Because if you can prove YouTube steps to make that secret, and someone ends up with it, like an ex-employee, or someone broke into your computer or whatever you packed, and you could prove YouTube steps to do it to keep it secret, that's a really, it's on a tortious and statutory action that you can bring in. So, you take all these little forms of, now little, but weave these pieces together and you have an intellectual property strategy. If you have a strategy and you took some steps to protect all these little interweaving, then you have the formula of the ticket to be able to take down on Amazon, or take down all those things, or who is. All those things, but you need to take the steps first before you, otherwise you don't have any tools. Like your wall looks like it's made out of a button. The bricks are over there, and the mortar's over there. It's a liquid wall, it's, you know, so, I mean, a domain, yeah, I know of a self provides some production, but really, I like to look at it like, what's your strategy, what's important to you, and how can we get that protected? A lot of times, if you're a startup, it's gonna be the brand trademark first. Okay, can I just ask you there? 'Cause you mentioned domains. I'm wondering, and you mentioned that, you know, there's all the different options you have, the dot com, the dot com.au, the dot com, the, you know, the fact that the dot net, all those sorts of things, when you put them together, one, that's probably a very cheap way, I guess, to protect what you own, you know, more than $50 each. But I do, oh, well, I was gonna ask you, is it relevant to trademark your domain, like your key domain? So for me, it's SelenaNight.com. Should I trademark that, or is that a bit useless? That's right, it's a really relevant question, 'cause in the United States, the Supreme Court just weighed in on it. Does it dot com in and of itself provide some sort of protection? Generally no, but here we have 1-800-context.com, which is actually the name of the company. So it's not 1-800-context, it's 1-800-context.com. If it's an established name of the brand, and consumers recognize it as the name of the brand includes a dot com, then Amazon, kind of, I mean, you know, some people might think Amazon.com is the name of the company. And so that might be trademarkable. But most of the time, they're gonna disregard the dot com, the trademark all things. But it's a fluid area with a law. What I think is really important, this gets in international is, all right, and in fact, I have cases right now where the infringement's occurring in the United States and Canada. And so, you know, our northern neighbor. Get the dot SIA, get the foreign domain, get the EU, get Australia. This is really, really cheap protection. And chances are, you're gonna have a supply chain and a sales channel that is gonna go international, especially if you're selling e-commerce or goods that are shipped. Because ultimately, you know, someone in Toronto, if you're in the United States, someone in Toronto, it's what, 30 miles from, well, it's more than that. I don't know, but it's not very far. - It's not that far. - Yeah, and it's really, like, they're not gonna be like, well, that's a United States company. - Yeah, so the point is, is your channel of commerce, you have to trace where it's coming from. So, a lot of times it's gonna be China. Ultimately, we wanna pay some attention to where the product's coming from in your supply chain when you're getting it. And then, ultimately, where do you think you're gonna ship it out to? - Because your wall has to cover a little better of that place. To me, the most obvious place to start is get the domain, at least it establishes some common law rights in those countries, for like, you know, $6, $10, you know, when you're checking off the American one, why not put it up on the CNN? - So once we have all of those things, or we've started to put those things in place, if we do find, let's just go with your Amazon example, because I think that is extremely pertinent, especially if you're a product manufacturer and your product is being made overseas, we see this time and time again. Your supplier makes it, and then put somebody else's label on it, and they're selling it white-labeled on Amazon. If your products appear on Amazon, or say your brand appears on Amazon, what do you do? - So there's a couple of things that most people don't know, is if you see your brand appear on Amazon, and it's not your brand, chances are the infringement is much deeper than you even know. So what you see on the surface is kind of like the tip of the iceberg of the infringement that's probably going on around the world on your product. So that's already, it can be a little too late. Courts in the United States are grappling with how to handle this. If someone researched that, and looked at a list of how many, when someone sees one, there's actually 375 of them, how to handle those, 'cause that's a huge lawsuit. So, but the point is, if you see it is probably deeper than 10 you have, so then you take out your little cheat sheet, meaning, well, what was my IP plan? What did I protect the trademark? Did I protect the copyright? If you protect the copyright, and you have a registered copyright, you can tell Amazon, hey, I have a registered copyright, you send it to Amazon, they'll take it down to media. So they'll do immediate takedowns, or you have to tell them there's something, and this is under American law. There's something called a counter notice, so that they would, they have, I believe, I should know this, but it's 20 days, I believe, they can say, the other side can say, hey, I didn't, I didn't infringe. Now, what happens is a lot of the infringers are in China, and it may be, that's an overstatement, but my experience is a lot of the infringers in China, they don't care that much about American law, like, they're infringers, it's like, they don't care, and they're not in the United States. And so they'll file the counter, and say, I did an infringe. Then you're stuck with having this city, though. Either you see them, or though Amazon will put it back up. And so that's how it works for copyright now. If you have that, and you have a trademark infringement, and you have a registered trademark, well, then you have two quivers in your bow, two ways to go about trying to take it down. - And how difficult is it to say we're in this scenario, we've seen our product on Amazon, we've lodged the form, Amazon have taken it down, the infringer has said, I didn't infringe, and now we have to sue them. Like, is that an expensive process? Is it a time consuming process? Is it something you can do yourself? - In the United States, at least it's very jurisdictional. So each, you have to sue in the proper venue, and it's just like, and it's a big country. And so you have to find an attorney. So you usually call someone like an IP specialist like me, filing a complaint, yeah, it's a big deal. I mean, it's federal court. It's an unfortunate situation to be in. You really, that's why the wall has to look pretty good, because you're gonna avoid all this if you have a nice wall. It can be very daunting if we don't, that's why I'm emphasizing so much, feeling that you really have to start with having a strategy, like before any of this. - And you gotta know what's important to you. - Right. - With all your experience with this, have you found that the infringers don't respond if it gets taken to the next level, and you get a verdict or a, like a judgment in your favor, because they don't ever turn up, because I don't know. I'm kind of thinking that the infringers are like, yeah, yeah, whatever, like two fingers up in the air, and we'll let these products go, and we'll just move on to the next one. - Well, yeah, a lot of times they're not legit. So it's a shall get. It's always a cost benefit evaluation. Like if we think we can get their account frozen quickly and get a preliminary injunction, then we know we're sitting in a pretty good place. Well, we just have to constant, it's not that different with a surgeon to surgery. When you go in, you don't know exactly what's gonna be in there, but you're gonna do it the best way you know how, for the cheapest amount of money, to get the best result. And if it's not, if you're gonna end up, your leg is not functional. Even if we do the surgery, then you'll probably just sew it back up and we'll figure out a plan B. - I mean, really, and you don't go to a dentist if you've got heart problems, do you? So this is really, you're going to the person who brokered your mortgage if you've got a trademark problem. Can we move on to another example? - Sure. - So thank you so much for that. I think what you're basically trying to make everybody aware of is if you just do the basics, if you just spend a couple of thousands of dollars right at the beginning, a lot of these problems are gonna be, if they turn up are gonna be a lot easier to solve and a lot cheaper to solve. Can we go on to the example that I saw where I saw a Facebook ad for what was clearly a scam website and my flags went up because the price was just too cheap. But when I went to the website, it looked identical to the big brand. Like, you know, as a seasoned marketer and someone who is aware of online, I could see how somebody could be scammed out of their money very, very easily. And it always amazes me that one, these people managed to get a meta ads account. Like the effort, the hoops that you have to jump through, all those sorts of things, they got an ads account, they built a Shopify store. So somehow they got through all the Shopify verification process because quite often they are on Shopify 'cause like me, I go in and inspect with the source 'cause I'm always looking at these kinds of things. And then if they do take your money, you don't get the product. I mean, potentially if you've paid with a credit card, you can try and get some legal recourse there. But as the business owner, if you see these things happening, what do you do? Like what is step number one? If you can just walk us through, what are some simple things that we can do? And at what point do we call someone like you in? - Sure, so the first thing is to evaluate what exactly they're doing. Like if it's a complete web's copy, you're gonna want the domain frozen taken down through something called ICANN, which is the international domain registry protocol. And so you can strategically either do it through the courts in any country, but most consumer countries need where people buy a lot of stuff. You can also do it through ICANN. And so we're gonna wanna try and get the domain taken down ASAP. We're gonna wanna threaten prosecution for trademark infringement. Or you brought up something that's really true in trademark, anyone can get a trademark. But when you get to be a famous brand, like if someone's a rip it off Nike, well, they have additional rights that a normal brand wouldn't have because they're famous and it's called, what's it's called as brand tarnishment. And so there's actual penalties, additional penalties for tarnishing a famous brand. And so they have it a little better, but they also have, you know, they're legal people. They're legal people. Yeah, yeah, I mean, teams, I just looked up, I don't remember the brand, but it was one of the brands and I looked at almost 30% of their expense because it's a branding company. It's like a Nike, it wasn't Nike, but it was like a company like Nike, a branding company's gonna spend 30% of all the revenue they make on enforcing the version. Protecting the brand, yeah. Yeah, protecting the brand. It's like to what you said right at the beginning, which was what is important to you. And for them, what's important to them is the brand. They can stick their logo on anything and it's a Nike product. They not know on Ford, just T-shirt. And if they couldn't, they wanna have a company. So it completely makes sense. And in the, you know, apparel costs like next to not paying for the company. So why they don't even make it, they license. So, but the point is is they're a branding company and so that's what they do. And so, you know, you have to look at it like, we're gonna have to spend, you know, I don't cherish like spending people's money and trying to take this stuff down. So we're always gonna, we're always gonna, you know, take a really, what's the best strategy? First, let's get the domain, take it down. Number two, let's threaten, at least threaten a federal lawsuit. Number three, let's, it's always important to go for something called a preliminary judge 'cause we're gonna try and freeze our assets in the US, which is very threatening to them. Sometimes they'll want it to make it right, try and settle because they know like, hey, if they take all my money out of my car, that's worse than me giving up some money. - I was gonna say, I had never even thought about, until you mentioned it, I had never even thought about the potentially freezing someone's assets like that. To me, it was just like stop the, you know, stop impersonating my brand, but the freezing someone's assets not only makes it more real, but makes the effort more realistic, if that makes sense. And so, can we even take a step back here? And I know that inside of, say, Meta, and this may not be your area of expertise, I'm just bringing this one on you, inside of Meta, you can always report, you know, copyright infringement or something like that. I've tried to do that in the past, nothing happens. Is there a way, like, if it is a proper, this is my brand that's gonna be tarnished, my customers are going to be scammed. Is there a way to get someone like Meta to actually stand up and take notice? And then following on from that, is there someone, is there something we can do with someone like Shopify or WooCommerce? I mean, WooCommerce is a little bit different because it's a public platform, it's an open platform that you build upon. So apart from just taking the website down, can we move to that next level of whoever is, let's say hosting the content, can we make those people do something against these big companies who, you know, they just seem like they never listen? - I'd say it ebbs and flows is what I would say. I'd say I've had experiences where the platforms are very receptive to takedowns, and then they change, and they're not exactly broadcasting when this occurs and when it doesn't. But we, you know, we all have like channels inside some of these platforms to find out the skinny, but then they leave, you know. They're a huge company. But the point is, is they go through an effort where it looks like they really are trying to do something and they really even broadcast in the Wall Street Journal or something that they're spending $2.7 billion on these efforts and opening channels and going to trade shows and then they don't for two years. Then they do, then they don't. Then they do, then they don't. Depends who this Chief Legal Officer depends on what kind of PR they need. You know, it's really like a complicated game. I think the most important thing is to just, you know, be vigilant on, on, and there's, if you don't have anything to be vigilant about, like you have no protection, don't bother. No one's going to do anything. I always am trying to take little steps, teeny little steps to move, to keep momentum and keep the ball moving. Like if you don't get a reaction from Amazon or Shopify or, you know, whoever, how, what's the next teeny little step we could take? That's not going to, you know, cause a major disruption in your pocketbook or your life and just keep on taking those steps until we're kind of past the point in our return. About two years ago, I lost on a case, I missed. The person waited too long. They waited like, you know, a year. And the judge is like, well, if they waited a year, how important it can be to me? And so he's like, he put it at the back of the line and it is kind of like my case in Florida. It's going to be like, we won't get it done until Christmas afternoon after Christmas, you know? So then you, you're kind of like, well, no one wants to stick around for it to watch them slowly, very slowly, you know, move out of the park at the other summit. So it's, it's just really strategy matters so much at this point. - I think what this has highlighted for me is one, you need to get that foundation in order. Like don't be stingy because spending, you know, the things that you've said, the trademark, a few websites, maybe copyright, we're talking a couple of thousands of dollars. Like $1,000 now could save you 20, 30, 50 and the stress, like as someone who's been through a legal battle, the stress that it has on your whole entire, 'cause these go for years sometimes, you know, the stress that it has literally can tear you apart. But also having that trusted advisor, like at least knowing that if I have this problem, I'm going to need an IP attorney or a trademark attorney and knowing who to reach out to and say, this is my problem. Is it even, like you said, right back at the beginning, the cost benefit analysis, is it worth my while to do something about this? - For an early stage company, it's like, I get it, I had an early stage company. Any money is like, it's hard to spend. And so if you do a trademark, right, you're going to do a thorough search. And a thorough search is going to be a common law search too. We're going to go, we're going to use a search service that goes from the internet and figures out all the iterations of possible. And you're going to get a really good idea if your brand is even a playable brand. Whereas if you just file a trademark, you're not going to find that out for three, four, because by the time it's examined and then you get an office, you're not too, you're talking about maybe up to three years. So it's good to know where your brand sits up front. The second thing is, ultimately, what do we want to do as console? We want to build a company that's going to make it through due diligence. Even if you don't think you're ever going to sell the company, we want to have that kind of company that they're going to, when you get to due diligence and they offer you, you know, you get a term sheet for $5 million, that they're going to pay you $5 million at the time of the closing because everything looks in order. If you don't have a trademark strategy or you don't have a copyright strategy, you've been infringed upon and you really never did anything about it or you put yourself in that position. Even if you get that term sheet, it's going to start going down to four, they're going to look at this and it's going to go down to three million or they might not complete the transaction. But I have seen, you know, where we get to that checklist and you're like, these items are nowhere to be found and no one's interested. - No, I mean, it's one of the first things you say to is own your IP, like in your IP, what are they going to find? - Document it, like you took it seriously. So just for that reason and that reason alone, even if you're like, well, I have such a unique invention, I'm never going to get it for example. Whatever, but then you make steps on why that is such a unique invention and that you took care of it that way. - Stephen Wylie, you've given us some excellent information, some great takeaways, some great actions and some great steps if we haven't already done that in our business. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. And if people want to reach out to you to get some help, hopefully not because they've been infringed upon, but to build that wall, where can they find you? - Our website is www.emergeconsole.com, coun scm.com. And we offer free initial consults. We want our initial goal is we want to really grow with our clients. And so we want to get to know you, we want to get to know your brand, we want to get to know what you're thinking. But we also, our trademark program is called Total TM and it's very thorough and very program oriented and cost effective. And so if you want a free initial search or you just want to talk about your business, please just book some time with me and we'd love to talk to you. There's also a lot of good resources on that website. - Thank you so much for all of that. - Pleasure. - So that's a wrap. I'd love to hear what insight you've gotten from this episode and how you're going to put it into action. If you're a social kind of person, follow me at the Selena night and make sure to leave a comment and let me know. And if this episode made you think a little bit differently or gave you some inspiration, or perhaps gave you the kick that you needed to take action, then please take a couple of minutes to leave me a review on your platform of choice. Because the more reviews the show gets, the more independent retail and e-commerce stores, just like yours, that we can help to scale. And when that happens, it's a win for you, a win for your community and a win for your customers. I'll see you on the next episode. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) [MUSIC PLAYING]
