Be God's Family
S3 E39. Jeremiah and the End
This is the Be Gods Light Podcast with Ben Greenbaum and Mark L. Cessar. In 2022, we spent an entire year looking at the life of Jesus from the four Gospels. In 2023, we explored the rest of the New Testament. And here in 2024, we are diving into the Old Testament for a look at how God has been at work from the very beginning. At the recording of this podcast, a Mark, Pastor Mark is in Greece, as you might have recognized by the tonal change in voice, along with the accent. But at the recording of the podcast, Pastor Mark is in Greece reliving the journeys of the Apostle Paul. So with me today, we have three special guests from our Wednesday morning Bible study here at the church who are here to help us close out our time in Jeremiah. And this group is uniquely suited to the discussion because we just completed, I think, what amounted to about a nine month study in Jeremiah. It may have been longer. It took a lot longer than I anticipated, as most of our studies do, as those sitting around the table could tell you. So without further ado, let me introduce our special guest with us today. First, we have Mr. Budmore. Hi. First, I'm glad to be here because, as you know, I like to talk. Facts. And then we have Dr. Susan Pressler, who's with us. Hello. Great to be here. Thank you. And then we have our own resident rocket scientist, Lou Flecker. Oh, and I'm really pleased to be here. It's a day full of activity with company coming. But I'm so glad to be able to come and join into this group. It's great to have each of you here. And the blessing of being with you guys every Wednesday morning is truly a, you know, I look forward to Wednesday morning. As I tell you guys often, I look forward. It's my favorite hour and a half of the week. So it's great to be here with you today. So what we're going to do today is rather than focus in on a specific passage in Jeremiah's since our Wednesday morning study just concluded the entirety of the book of Jeremiah, we're going to look more broadly at the book and just kind of get some general takeaways from the three of you, what you may have learned during our time together in Jeremiah. And then we're also going to look at how the book or how the study challenged you in your relationship with Christ. So first, how would you summarize the book of Jeremiah or what were some of your biggest takeaways from our study together? Well, for me, I saw in this picture of how people tend to give in to peer pressure, how they want to follow the leading of the people next door and the people down the street and their public leaders. And that isn't always God's way. In fact, with our ability to choose God has given us that ability to think for ourselves, to make decisions for ourselves that it's a thing of choice. And they would choose to do what was expedient at the time rather than follow what they knew God was trying to teach them and what he had been teaching them for years all the way back to Adam and Eve. How about you, Dr. Pressler? Well, my thoughts were that the book of Jeremiah is really dense, complex and detailed. Those words kind of came to me as we were reading it week after week. It includes many, many people, many places, many events over a 40-year period. So there's just so much in the book. And finally, there are a lot of interactions between the Lord and Jeremiah, the two of them talking to each other. So you could study at a very long time. There's a lot in the book. I think that was my first reaction. Mr. Bud, what do you get for us? Yeah, I was interested in that interchanges between the Lord and Jeremiah, especially some of the really strange things that the Lord asked Jeremiah to do, not just preach the word, but give some of these physical demonstrations of what the situation is. It's something that it's more than a typical, even like the whole book of Isaiah, doesn't get into the personal relationships as much between God and Isaiah, as he does between Jeremiah and God. Yeah, within the context of Isaiah's remission in Mr. Bud, within the context of Isaiah, we see that personal or action really confined to some degree to Isaiah, chapter 6, where Isaiah has this encounter in the throne room of God, and as God calls him into ministry and Isaiah eagerly says, "Here I am." And then with Jeremiah, there is this constant back and forth between Jeremiah and God. As Jeremiah, the personal struggles of Jeremiah come out a lot more within the context of the book, as we see Jeremiah being constantly confronted by the people in Judah. And as Mr. Liu had said here a second ago, people that were really, they were set apart by God to himself to serve as a light to the nations. They were called to be God's kingdom light to the nations and rather than living in accordance with God's will and God's desire and seeking to be a redemptive presence in the world as they respond to his redemptive love. They chose disobedience. The nation as a whole chose disobedience. And into that disobedience, God sends Jeremiah to be this faithful voice to him or for him, to the people. And then on the whole, Jeremiah is rejected in the midst of that rejection. He is imprisoned. He is forced to suffer. And we see Jeremiah wrestling throughout his ministry with what he's being forced to endure. And we see him crying out to God in the midst of all of that. I think it was interesting that he was about 19 or 20 years old what he was called. And he tried to tell God, "I'm too young to use. I can't go out and influence all these people." And just like some of the other colleagues through the Bible, Moses and so forth, that God said, "No, I've chosen you." Yeah. And we oftentimes see that throughout Scripture. And many of us probably sitting around this table could testify to this. But the whole axiom, God qualifies the called. And so he's the one who ultimately is going to do the work in ministering through those he is calling to serve. And that's what, you know, there's a young lady in our church right now. And I see God working through her in that way, who God has called her into a unique place to serve and to testify to his goodness, to bear witness to Christ in her community and to watch her live into that, live into this call that she might feel somewhat unqualified for. And yet she's leaning upon God and entrusting herself to God to lead and to guide her. But yeah, throughout Scripture, we see this. Obviously, we see this with Moses. He has the confrontation with God at the burning bush. And Moses wants nothing to do with it. And God does not relent and sends him to Egypt anyway. And then we see God working through Moses. Any other final takeaways or comments relative to the book of Jeremiah before we step into our next question that I've got for you? Yeah, the observation that God does not relent. And you see this throughout these scriptures, these people, regardless of how many times Jeremiah preaches to them, that they still will not conform to what the message that God has sent through Jeremiah. And there's probably a myriad of reasons why they don't, but mostly because they're human. That's our condition. Part of that thing you mentioned earlier, I think, as with pure pressure, it's so much easier to do a lot of the crowd and to stand up and say something to be different, change, change the direction of the crowd. You really can't do it. I agree. That's, that's true. And yet in the midst of that, we see God's persistent pursuit of the people and continuing to, to not only bring Jeremiah to the people, but ultimately there's, there's other prophets that he is bringing as well. And we see God's, in some ways, is patience with the people and bringing justice to bear upon them. We also see as mercy toward the people, as he continues to pursue them in the midst of like, this is rebellious, unrepentance that he sees from his people. Yeah, this is what I thought of when you said the takeaways. I think that the takeaways are those that first of all, God truly wants the love of the people. He is very patient with them when they, when they don't seem to get it. He's very merciful, but he does punish when he feels that it's absolutely the other way to go. And yet he is quick to, to show the mercy and to get back in, and to seek with them. Yeah. And with that, well, what we see in Jeremiah is we see Jeremiah telling the people, you need to repent, you need to turn to God, or God is going to allow the Babylonians to come in, defeat you, and then cart you in, cart you off into exile. But even in the, even in the, the process of delivering this promise of exile, there's also that promise of future redemption. And so what we see in Jeremiah, what we see, especially throughout the Old Testament, is we see God disciplining his people, bringing them into exile, ultimately to redeem them. He utilizes that time in Babylon as a means of refining the nation's heart. And then when the Persians come in and ultimately defeat the Babylonians, which we'll talk about in weeks to come, we see God redeeming the people by the hand of the Persians and then bringing them back to Jerusalem to rebuild the temple, to rebuild the city, which the Babylonians had destroyed. So pressing on a little bit in our time left, we've looked at some takeaways. We've looked at just general observations about the book of, of Jeremiah. We've offered a little bit of summary, but pressing more deeply into your own lives. How has the book of Jeremiah challenged you in your relationship with God? How is it challenged you in your relationship with Jesus Christ to grow near in that relationship? May I go back just a minute to one of the other big takeaways from Jeremiah? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, the other thing I had, as I was rethinking, all we did is that God and the Lord talks about the new covenant with the Messiah is the other really big takeaway. So it's pretty interesting to read some of those words, Jeremiah 23, Jeremiah 31, where he talks about the days are coming, declares the Lord. When I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel, with the people of Judah, any finishes, and we'll remember their sins no more. And then those same words are found in Hebrews. So that, to me, that was another really big takeaway, probably the most important takeaway, even beyond the justice. And so I think those are really, for me, the big words for us that Jesus forgave our sins if we repent. Yeah, and that's that's a huge piece clearly of of Jeremiah is that within the context of Jeremiah, there's the promise of the new covenant. And so there is kind of what they call the the both and relative to God's redemptive work on behalf of the people. He takes them into exile to refine the people as a whole. He brings them back to Judah. And it's the Judites, you know, it's through the tribe of Judah that Christ himself is ultimately born. And so as they come back to Judah, post exile, it's setting up the path for the coming Messiah. God preserves the people of Judah for the sake of the coming Messiah, who will ultimately seal the new covenant by his death in his resurrection. Yeah, that's a great point, Dr. Pressler. I can go on from that a little bit, have that a little more specific. One of the things I see in that promise of the new covenant, where he says, I'm going to teach each individual. And to me, that leads me to the Holy Spirit, that the Holy Spirit is our teacher today. And that is God in spirit. And that's how he illuminates the Scripture is through the Holy Spirit. When we read the Scripture, the things that we come to mind, the things that we picture and project are the work of the Holy Spirit illuminating those words for us. And I think that is so important and we rely on the Holy Spirit to lead us each and every day. Christ isn't here on earth at this time. God is doing his work through that spirit. Yeah, and it's by the spirit, as we encounter the word, is where our own personal lives are confronted with the word, the spirit moves to your point, Mr. Liu, and refines our hearts, ripens our hearts that we are being renewed into the image of Jesus Christ. And to, again, to your point, our absolute dependence to live out God's will in our life, we are absolutely dependent upon the spirit to move and to work and to refine our lives. Amen to that. So how does the book of Jeremiah then challenge you in your relationship with Christ? I think first of four, I guess, it makes it clear that if we do not repent of our sins, that there is punishment in the future. We have to be aware of that. We have to be aware that as we talk to others too, we should try to get people, as Jesus said, make disciples, have people believe because the future consists of punishment if you do not obey God's rule, especially that having no other God seems to be one of the biggest. And this could be a stretch. And of course, having other God's can mean things other than just, you know, the false idol idea that a lot of things can be your idol, which you think more of that you think of God. So it's important to aim your life at God and to be trying to be true to his calling. I try to think too of listening to God and what is he trying to tell me and discerning it. And that takes, I mean, that's a challenge to always try to listen to God and say, what is he wanting me to do in this situation, praying about it. So I think it is a challenge. It's very helpful as we're groups like our Bible study and going to church are so helpful to be around other people who can give you guidance on that and help you think about challenges. Yeah. And before Mr. Lou jumps in, when we talk about the Holy Spirit, that is an aspect. It's not just the Holy Spirit working in us to refine us, but the Holy Spirit working through brothers and sisters in Christ, speaking into our lives, which helps to give a little bit greater discernment. And so our need for community, you know, God saves us, reconciles us to himself through the work of Christ and draws us into community for the sake of the spirit moving and working to refine us more fully into the image of Christ. Mr. Lou, what were you going to say? Well, and, you know, I'm always the guy that has a little bit of trouble with something that's sad. So I have a little bit of trouble with the word punishment. And I think of it more as discipline, like I hope that I had never punished any of my children, but they do require discipline. And discipline carries with it a connotation that is for their betterment. It's not me as the overlord dealing out some punishment. I don't have a better word for it, but it is discipline that is meant to bring us back, not drive us away. At the end, there is going to be punishment, not discipline. But with that, for those who are not in Christ, those who have rejected His love, there is the aspect of punishment. To Mr. Lou's point, relative to the people of Judah, that I would look at the people of Judah more through the lens of those who are in Christ. And so for those who are in Christ, God does work discipline in our lives as a loving father, as Mr. Lou is illustrating, as a loving father disciplines his own children, God will discipline us. There is the natural consequence that we suffer of sin. So if we're going to pursue sin, there is a natural consequence of that. But also recognizing that God Himself can intervene in the midst of our sin by exercising some divine discipline to draw us back to Himself. And so the writer of Hebrews and Hebrews chapter 12 draws upon that, that we should treat trials and tribulations as discipline, whether they are the result of sin or not. But utilizing those things as a means of drawing near to God, because God's ultimate desire for us is to refine us that we would become increasingly reflective of His holiness, that we would live that set apart life in deeper and more abiding ways. And sometimes that does, that emerges through those trials and tribulations that we endure in life. And so yeah, there are those moments to Mr. Lou's point where God does exercise discipline as a loving father disciplines his children, that we would come to better and more fully experience his love and abide more fully with him. And then also to Mr. Bud's point, for those who do reject Christ, Jesus himself says in John 3 18, that there is condemnation for those who reject Him, for those who reject His love. Understanding that God pursues us, he extends his redemptive love to us, but for those who reject them, they will live set apart from him into eternity. Other reflections on the book of Jeremiah. Well, one of the things that I always look at is the history. And this book is so full of the history of the people as it relates to the kings and the leaders of different countries around, we can fix this in time. And if we didn't have this book of Jeremiah, I'm not so sure that we would be able to fix these events in time like we have relating it back to the leaders. Yeah, and that's one of those aspects that as we journey through the Old Testament, as we encounter, there's even extra biblical sources that point to many of these events. And as we encounter these events, it is. It's one of those things that testifies to what we would call the historicity of the Bible, that we can trust it. And then in that, seeing how God works through these historical events, how His sovereign hand is present in the midst of all of this, yeah, that's a great, great takeaway from this. Maybe another point is that we didn't touch on as much as the sorrow and the lament that Jeremiah feels. He wrote the book of Lamentations too. And so he is continually in the book thing. Oh, my Lord, why is this happening? And he's tried to kill him. Some of the people do. So he's lamenting and sorrowful about everything that's going on with the people disobeying God and with their response to him and to the Lord. Yeah, and we see that lament throughout many of the prophets through Habakkuk as we've discussed previously. And we see, obviously, with Jeremiah having written Lamentations and recognizing that lament itself is an aspect of the Christian life. Because when we encounter things that are not aligned with the will and desire of God, that are not aligned with His truth, the right response for the Christ follower is to lament what we see, recognizing that this is not the way of God. And so often when we encounter brokenness in this world, sometimes some Christian shy away from lament because they think or they see it through the lens, well, if I'm lamenting, if I'm grieving this, then am I really trusting God? Well, yeah, you know, because brokenness is a byproduct of the fall. And in that, we lament those things that aren't a part of God's creative intent and creative purpose. It's interesting to recall that Jeremiah went through a lot of punishment, a lot of distress, whatever you want to say, torture for making this stand, which was against what the people wanted to hear. They have all these other prophets tell them what they wanted to hear. Here's Jeremiah telling them, yeah, it ain't so. And I think that's a significance, a portion of what Jeremiah was all about. Yeah, being faithful to God's will and being faithful to God's call does not mean easy, breezy, lemon squeezy. I mean, it can be a life of extreme difficulty. And one of the things that you see even now throughout the world in a multitude of places is within the Christian community is the level of persecution that many Christians across the globe have to suffer as they seek to be faithful to Jesus Christ. And so, yeah, that faithfulness does not mean that everything is going to be easy in recognizing that God's kingdom ethic oftentimes presses up against and pushes back against the cultural ethic that exists. No matter in every space in the world, oftentimes God's kingdom ethic pushes back is a contradiction to an existing cultural ethic. And in that is we seek to be faithful to God's kingdom ethic. We are oftentimes going to experience pushback. Well, I thank you guys for being with me today. Hopefully, I've been blessed by the conversation. Hopefully, you out there in podcast land have enjoyed this conversation with Bud Moore and Dr. Susan Pressler and Lou Flecker. Next week, Pastor Mark will be back. And next week, we're going to begin another three week exploration, but this time of the ministry of the prophet of Ezekiel, who minister to the Jews in the Babylonian exile. And there's all sorts of wild and crazy stuff that happens in Ezekiel. There is some wild imagery there in Ezekiel. And so we can look forward to having that conversation with Pastor Mark in the coming weeks. And if you want to jump in deeper, I invite you to go to our church's website, fishersumc.org and click on the be God's light link. And that will take you to more elements in this year long study of the Old Testament, including daily Bible reading, devotions, poems, weekly sermons, other episodes of this podcast. If you want to stay up to date with be God's light podcast, we encourage you to follow and write us wherever you get your podcast. Well, that's all we have for today. And we'll see you next week. [BLANK_AUDIO]
On today's special episode, Ben Greenbaum is joined by Bud Moore, Lou Floetker, and Dr. Susan Pressler as they explore the book of Jeremiah.