How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era | Better in Person
Anne Pasternak (Brooklyn Museum) and Michael Roth (Wesleyan University) tell Stephen Dubner how they keep the peace in the middle of a culture war.
If you'd like to see the video version of Better in Person, you can watch it on YouTube or Apple Podcasts.
- Duration
- 37m
- Broadcast on
- 01 Sep 2026
- Audio Format
- other
This episode appears to contain dynamically inserted ads. Transcript timestamps may be approximate.
Anne Pasternak (Brooklyn Museum) and Michael Roth (Wesleyan University) tell Stephen Dubner how they keep the peace in the middle of a culture war.
If you'd like to see the video version of Better in Person, you can watch it on YouTube or Apple Podcasts.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
This episode of Better in Person is presented by Chat GPT. Put Chat GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Download the new Chat GPT Desktop app today. Hey there, it's Stephen Dubner. And this is a bonus episode called How to Run an Institution in an Anti-Institution Era. It comes from our new TV talk show Better in Person. The guests are Ann Pasternak, director of the Brooklyn Museum and Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University. To watch this episode or to watch any episode of Better in Person, go to the Freakonomics YouTube channel or search for Better in Person on Apple Podcasts. As always, thanks for listening. I think most people will be surprised to know that I play in a Geezer rock band. Well, that is not surprising. This is Better in Person with Stephen Dubner and Ann Pasternak and Michael Roth. What's it like to run an institution in a time when trust in institutions is at an all-time low? Ann Pasternak and Michael Roth have some thoughts. Ann is director of the Brooklyn Museum. Before that, she ran Creative Time, a provocative public arts group here in New York City. If you've ever seen the annual Tribute in Light Memorial, dedicated to the lives lost on September 11th, that was Ann Pasternak's idea. And Michael Roth is the president of Wesleyan University. His Geezer rock band, by the way, is called the Smokin' Lilies. He's better known as one of the most outspoken university presidents in the US, eager to talk about the political, financial, and cultural pressures that universities are facing. So, I thought it might be a good time to get these two together. First of all, thank you for being here. Have you two met before? No. Yeah. It's first time. How was it? It was great. It was kind of a little shaky. It's very easy to touch me. Well, it was very hard for him because I love bombed him immediately. You love, you love bombed him now? I loved him because I follow his very moral voice, you know, in the papers, the opinion pieces he writes for the Times, wherever else, his letters out to the Wesleyan community. I often share it with my leadership team. I've shared his writing with my board. But you read his letters to the Wesleyan community. Are you part of the Wesleyan community yourself? No, but these things have a way of getting around. How would you describe his moral voice? Very clear, very principled, courageous humility. There's a lot of humility. But also he knows who he is. And he's not hiding behind some fashionable way of being. Do you feel that's accurate?
Transcription truncated.
Anne Pasternak (Brooklyn Museum) and Michael Roth (Wesleyan University) tell Stephen Dubner how they keep the peace in the middle of a culture war.
If you'd like to see the video version of Better in Person, you can watch it on YouTube or Apple Podcasts.