Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis)
Michael Lewis, the New York Times bestselling author of "Moneyball" and "The Big Short," stops by the studio to talk to Lovett about "Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State," his latest book on the government employees who stood up to Elon Musk and Donald Trump during the heyday of DOGE. Lovett and Lewis revisit the story of Colin O'Brien, the security chief who locked DOGE out of the U.S. Institute of Peace, and break down how Howard Lutnick's takeover of the Commerce Department reveals the inner workings of Trump's government. Then, Lewis shares what essential government employees told him about working under DOGE, why he thinks DOGE may have been created in the first place, and how the next Democratic candidate should make rebuilding the government a top message following DOGE's damage.Hate listening to ads? Become a Friends of the Pod subscriber for ad-free episodes of Pod Save America, Pod Save the World, Lovett or Leave It, Runaway Country, Offline with Jon Favreau, and more—plus exclusive content, including bonus episodes of Pod Save America. Subscribe now at crooked.com/friends, on Apple Podcasts, or through the Pod Save America YouTube channel.You can request a transcript by emailing [email protected]. Include the podcast name, episode title, and air date. Please allow 48 hours for delivery.
- Duration
- 1h 3m
- Broadcast on
- 04 Oct 2026
- Audio Format
- other
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(upbeat music) Hey everybody, welcome to Ponce of America. I'm John Lovett. I just wrapped a great conversation with Michael Lewis. He is an author of the new book, Flockers Rebels in the Deep State is a conversation, not just about what happened when Doge tried to run rough shot over the government, but also the people inside who fought back. And there are a lot of fascinating stories and lessons and ways that we should be thinking about how not only to repair the damage, but build something better going forward and just loved getting to talk to Michael Lewis. And I think you'll like it too. It's good to see you. John, good to see you. The book is in raging. Is it? Yeah, it was fun to write. It wasn't making me angry as I wrote it. Well, that seems sort of your quality. So I want to start with Colin O'Brien. He's the head of security for what was then known as the US Institute of Peace. What happened when Doge tried to gain entry to that building? In a word, he watched and he's at a security and he's a more interesting character than that. He's like, he presents us like an NFL lineman just to look at him, but he's like a college professor in his head. He watched Doge basically rearrange all the guns on their side. So that he thought, first he thought the Institute of Peace, it's not really part of the executive branch. It's a congressionally created organization and it has got funding from the US government, but it owns its own building. It's a nonprofit. They didn't think of themselves as actually answering to the White House in any way. So it's weird when Doge shows up and says, we're taking this. It's also very small, I think, but people like, oh, it's the Institute of Peace. They associate it with USAID. USAID is vast compared to what the Institute of Peace is a couple hundred people. Yeah, it's a $70 million budget or something. Some of it privately raised.
Transcription truncated.
Michael Lewis, the New York Times bestselling author of "Moneyball" and "The Big Short," stops by the studio to talk to Lovett about "Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State," his latest book on the government employees who stood up to Elon Musk and Donald Trump during the heyday of DOGE. Lovett and Lewis revisit the story of Colin O'Brien, the security chief who locked DOGE out of the U.S. Institute of Peace, and break down how Howard Lutnick's takeover of the Commerce Department reveals the inner workings of Trump's government. Then, Lewis shares what essential government employees told him about working under DOGE, why he thinks DOGE may have been created in the first place, and how the next Democratic candidate should make rebuilding the government a top message following DOGE's damage.Hate listening to ads? Become a Friends of the Pod subscriber for ad-free episodes of Pod Save America, Pod Save the World, Lovett or Leave It, Runaway Country, Offline with Jon Favreau, and more—plus exclusive content, including bonus episodes of Pod Save America. Subscribe now at crooked.com/friends, on Apple Podcasts, or through the Pod Save America YouTube channel.You can request a transcript by emailing [email protected]. Include the podcast name, episode title, and air date. Please allow 48 hours for delivery.