(upbeat music) - Hey there and welcome to the Bringing Business to Retail Podcast. If you're looking to get more sales, more customers, master your marketing and ultimately take control of your retail or e-commerce business, then you're in the right place. I'm Selena Knight, a retail growth strategist and multi-award winning store owner whose superpower is uncovering exactly what your business requires to move to the next level. I'll provide you with the strategies, the tools and the insight you need to scale your store. All you need to do is take action. Ready to get started? (upbeat music) - Hey there and welcome to the Bringing Business to Retail Podcast as we head full tilt into the mania in retail and e-commerce, that is Q4. I decided to create a series showcasing industry experts to get their advice on how we can leverage Q4 and specifically Black Friday Cyber Monday. At the moment in the current economic climate, I feel like we need to be adapting and changing. So you don't just need my opinion, you need a bunch of opinions, a bunch of information from industry experts and that is what I have put together for you. Today, I have Toby Comstay. He is Shopify's senior merchant success manager for the APAC region. And if our pre-podcast chat is anything to go by, this is gonna be one heck of an episode. In fact, I'm gonna go so far as, if you've got little people around, we haven't even recorded this yet, but if you have little people around, this might be the time to pop in the headphones because Toby is very much like me. He is very much say it like it is, get down and dirty with the conversation, no holds bad. Now, Shopify is just part of Toby's adventure in the retail and e-commerce landscape. Toby also founded and then grew a very successful retail and e-commerce business before it was acquired in, I think it was 2020, you'll correct me if I'm wrong. So not only is his knowledge firsthand, he's been where you are now. And he is delighted to share his insider secrets. Toby, welcome to the pod. - Thank you, Sal, but it's such a nice introduction. And I hope the little ones don't hear anything too crazy from us today, but I'll share a warning. And yeah, look, I have had a bit of experience in this space, obviously starting my own company and growing that as well. I think for me, it's always been around the intersection of business, technology and human connection. And really excited to be here today and talk about all of those things around BFCM as well. - We'll get to the BFCM stuff. But the simple fact is, I think on the inside, we are all sticky beaks. I don't know if that's a term that's used everywhere, but it's certainly a term that's used here. We love to be able to peek behind the scenes, get the down and the dirty information of what it's like to run a business. So can you give us the 411? Give us the reason that Toby started a retail slash e-commerce business. I think it was e-commerce to begin with, am I correct? - Yeah, crazily enough, it was e-commerce to begin with in 2005. - Can I just say, you hands down win because usually it is me saying, oh, I started my first e-commerce business in 2007, but you, you beat me to the chase. So you have even more time in this industry than I do. - Yeah, and look, it was, it was a time when I thought, and I think I listened recently to one of your coaches, Daniel, give me a talk about this too. The early 2000s were bringing with that excitement and opportunity around the e-commerce space. It wasn't a lot of tech providers out there or opportunity to really dig in and whizzie-wig it. You know, like you don't have to go to a code. So I taught myself how to code and I taught myself how to build a really basic functioning website and online store and grew it from there. But back to your question about why. I mean, something you won't see on my LinkedIn is that I grew up working in my family takeaway shop. So this was a food shop. - You're making me hamburger, is what you're saying? - Hamburger, kebab, whatever you need. For me, age of about 12 or 13. So retail is in my blood. And I think the other thing that's in my blood, and this comes from my grandparents, was innovation or entrepreneurship. They opened men with these little convenience stores or fast food stores around the Northern Rivers here in Australia, which is just sort of north of Sydney. And they were always innovating. They're always looking for something better or bigger or to differentiate. And that was in my blood. So from a very early age, I was always trying to find something new and exciting as well. And when I got to university as a musician, I was studying to be a classical violinist. It was still there bubbling underneath this whole idea of well, what's the business I'm in right now? And what do the people need? And what are the biggest problems? And I was one of those customers that couldn't find the perfect violin strings anywhere. And it was this quest to find the best sound. Or maybe it was the quest to find the best violin case that would stand the rigors of trying to get it through the conservatorium, that kind of thing. And for me, I was also working in music stores, was casually trying to get through uni. And I saw this opportunity. I thought really online was where I was trying to find these products. I couldn't find them. And I had the knowledge and the willpower to go and learn how to build the online store. So I did, and that's where it all started. And you know, a couple of nearly 20 years later, I'd quit my uni degree. I'd gone full time into the business and grown it and hired violin makers and repairs and importing products from all over the world and selling to organizations and schools and customers and building a community. So a really, really exciting time. - Okay, I feel like you just cut out the really, like the most important part, which was one, clearly the business got to a point where you could make money to survive off of and you left the uni degree. I mean, how did the parents feel about that? Like here you go with conservatorium, classical, you know, going into an orchestra. And now you're like, I'm gonna throw it away for this online stuff. It's a huge thing, it's a huge choice because you study for so many years to get to a mastery level where you're actually accepted into a conservatorium and that's not an easy task in itself. But then of course you've got all these years of practice and rehearsing and to get into those orchestras as well. I think something was really clear with my parents about in making this decision were the opportunities that were really allowed to me after I'd complete this degree. We're pretty slim here in Australia. And globally I would have had to travel a lot as well to make that opportunity stick or really find something that was highly beneficial. And what definitely was, you know, starting in business is very entrepreneurial. So I was obviously very going home and willing to do what it took. I could see a different path. And I think from my family having been in business and in retail themselves, they kind of knew what I was up against or what I was coming into. I should say in the opportunity that they saw for me. So they were actually quite, quite okay with it. I think it took a little bit of, yeah, a little bit of tension, but I think it got there and definitely paid off. So happy in the end. - So can you just tell me about the opening of the business? We'll get to the Black Friday stuff. But this I think is really important because I know the stories, I know some of the stories you're gonna tell it. So I think it's really important to just, you know, understand where you're coming from. So you're looking online, you're in university. So you're young, you're passionate. You're looking online for these products. You can't find them. You can see this niche, you can see this opportunity. And you go, like we all did back in the day, I'm gonna create a website and see if people will come. How did you market the website? Like how did you get the people? Because you and I both know that e-commerce back in the early 2000s, it was kind of an if you know, you know kind of thing. Like unless you were hanging out on a forum, which is where we all hung out before Facebook. And you could give people the links. We didn't really have internet marketing. So tell me, how did you find the people? - That's a really, really good question. So that, and it really cast in my mind. Yeah, word of mouth was still huge. And it still is obviously huge. But word of mouth was really, really critical for the growth of that business. And I say that because I was in the industry. So I think it took an industry insight to understand that there was a shared problem or opportunity here. But there was also a shared what path that people were going to the internet at this time. And they weren't kind of finding exactly what they wanted. So I used that insight, but I also used my network. And I think this is where it was getting everyone to try and go to the website first of all. It's the biggest thing. It's like, why would I go to the website where I can just go down the road or go to a store, right? And then it was the point of difference. So actually it's binding to them. Well, actually no, I've worked with some international companies to bring product to Australia that you can't buy anywhere else. And so it was that level once they got there of how to convert them as well. I think the big thing though, it was word of mouth industry and making sure you really work your networks. The last thing I did though, which I still recommend to this day, is use traditional media to market a digital product. And I let a box drop. I created catalog. - You put some flyers on polls, didn't you? - Exactly. You've got to. And for me it was make a break. And I think this is the other thing. If you don't have an option B, you're going to try everything in the toolkit to get there. Whereas, yeah, option B can sometimes be, oh, I didn't work, let's go and try that next thing, but I didn't have an option B. So it had to work. - I know that is such an interesting line of thinking because I'm with you. I believe that for a lot of people, this is going to sound so counterintuitive, but having financial security in the background is actually a detriment to your business. Because when you have no option, but I have to make 20 grand this month to be able to pay my people, pay my rent, pay my stock, pay myself, feed myself, all those things, you will do everything you possibly can to make you $20,000 or whatever that number is. But if you know that you can kind of just pull that money out of the bank and I'm not saying that you shouldn't have a financial buffer or cushion or anything like that, but I'm just saying there are points in your business where having that financial security can be the difference between going all in and kind of just half asking it. - Yeah, I'm kind of laughing to myself too because that first three months, I wanted to have as much time to work on and in the business as I could, but I knew I still needed to make some income and I quit my uni degree, so I had time, but I wanted to work the nine to five on the business. So I wouldn't found a job at the airport, which offered me six to midnight shifts. So I could work until midnight to make money from 6 p.m. And then I could get back into the business during the day and they were hard, yak a days, but they were fun. I was quite naive, obviously, and you put a lot of energy into creating the value you need, but I can remember and hear you talk, I can remember my first sale and my first customer and yeah, that's a special moment for me. And I really still, it wasn't via the website, my first sale, it was via the phone. And I told him at the end of the cold, make sure you go on the website next time and let us know if we can help you, but the pride I had in that sale and the feeling it brings up today is still really special. So I wanted to ask you a question about scaling. So obviously as you grew, I think it's very clear without you having to say it, I think anyone listening can hear that you probably did put a lot of effort into customer experience, you went that extra mile. So as you grew, and the business grew to the point that somebody else wanted to buy it, which is amazing, congratulations, what did you find were the hurdles that you hit when it came to scaling? - So there's obviously a lot of complexities that arise as you start to grow. And I don't think I could have really, I said, you know, I was naive at the start and I don't think if you knew exactly what was coming up, that you would necessarily go into business in this way, right? - Yes, yeah, I agree. - So I think some of the biggest complexity is really cash management money. It's all around money, right? I think the biggest complexity is money and making sure that you're super aware of what's happening day to day in the business in terms of that. And with the things that are going to affect that, marketing, staff, inventory, and then whatever else it takes to sell those goods, retail, lease agreements, technology on top, all of those nice to have as a plus plus on top of the basics. So I think the complexities that I saw, and I still see today when I help merchants here at Shopify, the same problems exist in all businesses. The biggest thing is that those problems will scale with you. So getting right to the start or as best you can and being open to changing and adapting them as you grow is critical. And never leaving anything to the way we did it before is the way we should do it in the future. I think when you scale, you need to be ready to revisit, process people, technology, all of the platforms as well to make sure that they are actually up to the task. And the team that got you to A may not get you to B, the technology that got you to B may not get you to C. And I think that's being open and innovative all the time in business. Because it can feel like it's an ever-changing world of adapting and having to manage the things day to day. And look, I know most businesses that went through COVID just burnt out and exhausted as well, right? But those challenges, I think, are the critical path. As long as you're ready to grow, you're ready to innovate as well. - I think that if we didn't like the challenges, we wouldn't be business owners. There is something about it that we can win all we want, but if we didn't like it, we wouldn't be here. And the truth is, for those true entrepreneurs, the true people who love business, the thought of going back to a job where someone tells you what to do and you have to report up the ladder, all those kinds of things, it's so far beyond our realm of consciousness. I feel like that is the point when you know that you are in this for the long haul. - Yeah, I agree. And there is good in both measures. So there's good in this bad right. And yes, we can complain all we like as business owners, but at the end of the day, you've still got this independence and this journey that you can own. And the decisions lie with you, which is scary at times, but really is the most exciting part, I think. - Yeah, well, you had to choose your own adventure. - Speaking of which, can you tell me, like you said, you sort of hinted at your marketing, you went old school, you did flyers, you did the polls, you did word of mouth, all those kinds of things. You were in the industry for, I'm gonna go like 15 years, like quite a long time. And obviously the industry has evolved very much so since 2005. Like we didn't really have any about marketing back then. And we didn't have Facebook, we didn't have Facebook, we didn't have Instagram, we didn't have all the things. Can you tell me the difference between a promotion or a marketing event that you ran just before you sold versus what you would have done a few years into the business, how are they different? - Well, interestingly for me, I actually, when I started the business and the brand, I was very specific about the brand over the promotions. And I say that anyway, and not every industry or vertical has this ability because sometimes the market will really dictate what you, and how you should show up, or how a brand might show up. In music instrument retail, we had not a lot of what movers before me doing any of this. So we really got to cut our own path and set the standards as well, which there was a lot of traditional retail.get me wrong. And there was a lot of traditional retail stores doing promotions and a financial year, or they'd do back to school, that kind of thing. But the brand I'd created, we really didn't want to discount and we didn't want to be known for discounting. And that came off the back of willing to run a high quality brand, Asona, and being very high quality in how we handled the customer experience and the post purchase experience. And so when it came to promotions, we actually didn't run a lot of sales in the first couple of years. What we did do was a lot of hand holding, a lot of community experiences. And we actually partnered with a lot of industry and retail experts or collabs, that kind of thing that brought us closer to the customer and closer to the customer experience through trusted advisors or trusted channels. And I think that made a huge difference to the ripple effect or that marketing effect that we then had in terms of word of mouth, in terms of referrals and so on. So I would say we're very blessed, if you like, at that early stage. As we got more mature, we started to look at running campaigns and how they should be really tailored to the community that we had set up. And so we started to get a voice of community going, which I thought was excellent. So they gave us the feedback, they told us what they were looking for and we would start to test and learn. And so quickly we had a VIP level of segment and we had a lot of things happening that I think we were maturing some ways in that space 'cause we'd started to segment our audiences, we'd started to talk to people through different channels and we knew which channels they preferred. And that led us into really, really reluctantly going into Black Friday eventually. But the first kind of sales we had were back to school because we knew this was our huge acquisition moment for parents and students starting musical journeys at school and we knew it was a great opportunity to get people in the door because I did move into retail eventually and start running retail stores. And it was a great opportunity to have conversations with those people. So those campaigns didn't necessarily look like a discount, they may have been free gift with purchase, they may have been an upgrade to maybe a better sounding instrument or a better set of strings with the instrument, but they weren't necessarily all about discounting. So we led with that quality and then we measured up, I suppose, or doubled down on the value the brand was creating as well. And then finally we moved into some discounting strategies. And the way we looked at that was, how are we going to retain the brand persona and retain this brand without being a discount merchant because there are already discount merchants in our industry and we didn't want to be heavily associated with them. So we started to work towards spend and save campaigns and they were a great bread and butter campaign and we ran those mostly around the Black Friday time and we found that what we were really looking to do was take our average order value and our units per transaction as high as possible without reducing our gross profit. And we knew then we didn't have to get as much revenue in the door as maybe if we'd gone on 20 or 30% discount, but we, so we wouldn't really have to push the acquisition spend as much either. And we knew we also had a hugely loyal customer base as well. So on that combined, we ran it quite lean, but we did it in a way that was really tailored toward the brand and the community. - I want to dig into that more, but I just want to like reverse back a little bit and highlight, guys, if you weren't listening, one of the key things that Toby just mentioned was that he identified the key times of the year, which for most of you is going to be Q4 as a key acquisition period. So acquisition period, if that, if that words a little bit strange to you, what it means is we get more customers in. So whether that is getting more people onto our email list, getting more people to our website, getting more people into our stores, building up a retargeting audience, what Toby said was so important that it can't be overlooked, is that when you identify these key spending times for your customers, you can use those times to acquire customers. It may sound obvious now that I've said it, but I think too many people don't put that parallel in, which is like, it's not just about making money, but people are going to be looking for whatever it is I sell at this period of time. So I need to think about my marketing as a very well-rounded, not just selling stock, but also what am I gonna do to build my customer database during this time as well? So that even if they decide to spend with a competitor, I still can get hold of them again in the future in some way, shape or form. - I think the other part of that is if they're coming into your store, they're browsing and leaving, how can we at least have a conversation with them to get them to sign up to your mailing list? Or if they're interested in something, send them a quota and order for them to consider at home given that they've spent time today to come in and talk to you. I think that's where if you've got retail stores really making sure that the customer engagement at any time, but specifically around those high traffic periods is all around the top of funneling, which is getting those new customers and getting them on a list somehow. - You just said one of my secrets, which is giving people quotes, like nobody tells you to do that. It is one of my little like, the thing that makes you muddy is, we used to sell five, six, $700,000 packs of reusable nappies. And all you just used to think, some people will think if I give them a quote, they'll use that to get a better deal somewhere else. But the reality is nearly every person we gave to what the quote to came back and bought it, or they rang up and bought it, or they went online and bought it because you had taken the time to explain something to them and to walk them through, and your good customers respect that. Your good customers like, you know what? Maybe I can get it $10 cheaper, but I kind of know if I've got a problem, I can go back to them and they're gonna help me out. - Yeah, and I didn't do the great retailers follow up, but they use that quote as an opportunity to get back on the phone, get on an email, and genuinely remember something unique about the customer experience. For us, it was quite easy. We had, well, I wouldn't say easy, but it was really, most people were coming in to buy a new violin or a new bow or something because either they were much better, all of a sudden they had this need for a nicer sound, or they had this need because they were going to play for an exam or a concert. And so it was a big thing for me to remember those moments that mattered to the customer. And when you send that quote or you follow up on that quote, I hope the exam went well. I hope everything went off without a hitch, or you got a great result. And it's those little things that I think too, show that you're a retailer with authentic value and you can create trust really quickly too. - Just remind me, can we do that easily in Shopify POS? - Yes, exactly, you can. You can capture custom notes and all sorts of things that you can either show to the customer or adjust to your staff in the back end as well. So that's a great way to capture those little details about a customer that should be really memorable, but obviously when you're serving hundreds, thousands, who knows, you want to be able to quickly remember an insight or a little more less story potentially as well. - Yeah, I love that, I love that. The POS updates so often that are like, you know, I can't keep track of everything. So thank you for giving me that. I want to know your experience because you work with, you're the Senior Success Manager. So you're working with hundreds, if not thousands of brands all around the world and you're getting that kind of behind the scenes. This is what we like. You get to give us the dirty on what's happening, what are other people doing, leading into Black Friday, Cyber Monday? So can you tell us, right now, we're in October, what are you seeing happen behind the scenes for brands? - So I do, I work with a lot of our top or largest brands here in APAC on the platform and that can be across unified commerce. We can D2C, retail, et cetera, or it could be just D2C purely or retail purely as well. So Shopify POS, what I'm seeing generally speaking is that really these brands have a clear strategy. They have a clear strategy going in and it may even be a year in advance that they've put this strategy together, but most would have this strategy really, really solid by now, if not last month. They would also be really clear on the metrics that are the most important for them at this time of year to drive and I know we spoke about new customers acquired. We have to look at the metrics for each individual business and make sure that they are actually important at the moment to drive. Why I say that is revenue can sometimes be a very big vanity metric and we sometimes look at this and say, well, I wanna double my revenue or 10x my revenue or put a really high goal in place around revenue, particularly I see this just for these peak seasons or holiday seasons and may be good, but it may not be the best thing for the business as well at this time. And I say that because I don't know your gross profit margins. I don't know what your inventory stock situation's looking like. I don't know your current levels of inventory, but those metrics that are really key to you need to be key in this peak season as well. And so I see the strategy being really strong. We've got a pre or during and then a post strategy around peak season and then really having a metric or an ROI that's critical for your business that's well understood in the business as well. So it's not just that you as the business owner understand that that's what we're driving this year, but it's everyone involved in the campaigns and also in the execution and so on that understands what they're driving and why. - So can we just dig into the pre during and post just a little bit, pre Black Friday, which is now what are you seeing? Are people just using this as a runway to get their brand awareness up? Like to fill that top of funnel? Are they using it for their email list? Like what are you seeing? And is it different to the previous years? - It is slightly different this year. What I'm genuinely seeing is the same pretty much year and year in terms of grow your list. Really grow your customer list. Get it in front of as many customers you can now because as we come into the November BSCMP time, this acquisition costs are not only high, highly expensive, but the cut through is really hard too. And I would say it's like wading through a really swampy waters of the unknown there. You don't know who's gonna see your ads necessarily with everyone running an ad, right? Do it now and do something now that's really around that getting their email, getting their mobile number, maybe getting a sale, but generally speaking, if you can get them on a list somehow that's gonna be great, sales even better. As you start that pre-strategy then it's around, well, how are you going to nurture those new customers from now until Black Friday? And is it just sort of keeping them up to date of what the brand's doing, the brand's story, or is it more product features and focus and benefits on that kind of space? And you know, as a brand what works here best, but generally speaking, if you're not looking to convert them to a sale right now, it's kind of that nurture journey and you don't wanna go too hard all of a sudden. The other thing I'd be looking at in that pre-strategy is really focusing in on what are the goals for Black Friday. Set those up so that you can measure them post but also during and be really clear about the why behind them. So a lot of the time we see brands put that revenue metric 'cause I spoke about on, but the bigger one might be, how much do you wanna grow that list by? And looking at the conversion rate of your list today, if you could counter that conversion rate during BFCM, but even better after BSM when you're not on sale and you're gonna sell at full price, that conversion rate with that mean more customers, we can look at then also how much more revenue you're gonna be driving off the back of that too. So as an investment now, the pays off longer term than just an initial sale, I think as well. - Yeah. - Okay, so a couple of things, I'm writing notes furiously. So I don't try and forget to ask you these questions and have these conversations. So the first one, I think, leads me to the second one, which was originally the first one. So my first question or first conversation started here is what you essentially are saying is reverse engineering. So if you want to make, we'll just go with revenue 'cause it makes it easy. If you wanna make X amount of revenue and you know your average order value during Black Friday, Cyber Monday is Y, then you can quite easily say we need Z number of sales. And then you can go back and you can go, all right, so based on our data last year, our customer acquisition costs during Black Friday, Cyber Monday is P, so to get this, I now have to go P times Z, that's so pretty, customer acquisition costs times the number of sales that we're gonna make. And that's gonna give you your marketing budget at which point most people freak out and go, I don't have that much money. Now if we backtrack 'cause you did something really important, you talked about building our lease now and you and I both know that list building is much cheaper than a conversion. So to get somebody's email or SMS, we put an offer out there, it might be discount code, it might be access to something, but that's gonna be in the dollars versus, generally a couple of dollars versus customer acquisition costs in Black Friday, Cyber Monday can be hundreds of dollars. And so if you look at, if you do the reverse engineering and you look at that budget and go, we can't afford that, the simple fact is you're not gonna hit that number. So the metric that you've pulled out of your butt is just the stats are you can't hit that. But what you're saying is if we backtrack to now and we start building our email list, the cost to retarget our existing customers way cheaper. That's like, again, we're back in the sense in dollars, not in the tens or hundreds, opening up our emails. Like, you know what conversion, you can put KPIs on these things. And so now you're like, well, we know we have to send X amount of emails based on this conversion rate to hit our goals. Again, you've kind of given us, I think, a really big nugget there that we just needed to break down in case people thought it was great, but they didn't really distill the information. Yeah. - Yeah, and a lot of these tactics, we can see other retailers doing, but we may not entirely know why. It's all about that reducing the cost of acquisition around this time because we know it just escalates incredibly around November and even into December as well. So yes, get those hungry customers now and convert them whenever I suppose is the opportunity there. I think the other part of that is if you've already got a really loyal customer database as well, look at how you're going to create a Black Friday campaign strategy that rewards not only new customers, because obviously great to drive new acquisitions. But if you're looking to really get lifetime value from your current customers, what is it that's going to get them to come back and buy around this period? If they've bought only once from you and it's on discount already, so maybe you acquired them last year and they haven't come back until Black Friday this year, make sure that you're very clear about that list and segmenting them into your discount shoppers because to target them from any other reason may actually result in a bit of a dud metric really. So I'm looking at that, looking at Harry, and then of course, if you've got very loyal customers and they're coming back a lot, what are the things that you could put in place that give the, show them that they are your VIPs, that they're important to you, that they're valuable to their brand and offering them something like early access to the sale or it might be a special gift with purchase, that little bit extra that keeps those customers with you for a very long time. You are so on the money. Thank you very much for reminding us. I think we forget when we're on a customer acquisition bender, we forget that if customers are seeing your sign up to our newsletter and get 20% off, but I've already spent $5,000 with you this year, it's like a punch in the face. It's like, well, you're giving them, it's like insurance. I have to get new home insurance and I rang up my insurance company and I was like, okay, I've been with you for six years. What are you gonna give me? 'Cause you're offering new people 10% off and they're like, no, sorry. To that point, they're almost saying to you, go elsewhere, right? Go elsewhere and then come back to us and you don't want your customers to do that. And you certainly don't want to pay another acquisition cost for the same customer because they've changed from you as well. So yes, keep them healthy, keep them coming back and really find ways to reward them as well. Most of all, talk to them. Talk to them about what that could look like. I love that. Can you give us some ideas? Because I know that your brand wasn't big on discounting. So you did some promos where you did some spend and saves. You worked out acquisition cost. You worked out gross profit margin. You did all the great things where you're entrepreneurial spirit. You were taught very, very well. But can you give us some ideas on if we're not just out for revenue? What are some things we can do? What are some campaigns? What are some promotions? What are some offers we can put out there to our customers? Because we can't compete with the big guys, but we want to do something. 'Cause I think what I'm hearing you say, please correct me if I'm wrong, is you need to be in Black Friday, Cyber Monday, regardless. What you don't necessarily have to do is have a big discount. So I really like this. And this is something I worked on with my brand, but I work now with merchants across the Shopify platform. I call it kind of the anti-pattern to be SCM, because we do want to be part of Black Friday, yes. And Shopify merchants made $9.3 billion last year in Black Friday, just in that in the crowd area. So there's a good reason to do so. And we know that the intent is there. We also know from the recent retail reports that customers are expecting value more than ever at the moment. And I don't know wherever you are in the world, there is generally a bit of a cost of living crisis going on. So I think that's top of mind as well. So I will definitely double down, Sal, and say, yes, we should be having something to do with Black Friday. But if it's not going to be around competing with the big guys and having those big sales or big discounts going on, then look at what you can do to differentiate or what I call that anti-pattern. So really good examples of that are Patagonia, for instance. When it's Black Friday for them, they either do something really wacky and say, don't buy this jacket, which was a big campaign of theirs a couple of years ago. Or they ensure that everywhere you're shopping, it says 100% profits for the planet. And so they align the exact reason that they're on sale with the exact reason that you should buy, which is because we have a big charitable organisation under Patagonia that's really helping the planet. So one, the example, the other is REI, which is a great outdoor and camping store in America. They often go on sale, but with Black Friday, they don't. They give everyone a day off and they have a campaign that says opt outside. And they ask their customers to go outside, enjoy being outside, camping. And really the reason that they're in business is to allow you that opportunity. And so it's focusing on that and all credit to them because what these brands are doing, they're not competing for your dollar, but they're getting your buy-in because you will remember them for time to come. And you will remember them for the values that they stand for, which I think really reflects on a 100 year company vision, not just a results focus company. - I love that. And the go outside thing is really too often, I think we get so caught up in either trying to give back or trying to make money. And it gets really hard to find that happy middle of how can I do this thing? How can I be part of it? How can I be top of my customers' mind? You know what, I can't afford to do a massive discount. So I think they are great examples. We've seen similar things where people will shut down the website for the day and then say, we'll do it on Tuesday. So Cyber Monday, they'll be like, you can buy anything today. - Yeah. - But tomorrow. And all that does is make you be like, oh, but, oh, what's gonna be happening tomorrow? Like, you just like, oh, yes, yeah, I need to know. And so, what he says, anything that disrupts the pattern is enough for us to be, to keep out interest peaked. And during, I mean, I would love to say it's only four days, but the simple fact is now Black Friday seems to start. The first time, okay. (laughs) - Yeah, and I think this year, it's a little challenging too. We have the US election coming up around the same time. So there's going to be, I think, a few brands going on sale a little earlier than just Black Friday as typically they do. But yeah, the November season really is the Black Friday season. It doesn't matter. I think, yeah, it could start anywhere in between. - I think the other thing I had in just that is making sure that what you do, if you are going to shut down your website, making sure you align it to one of the brand values that you have as to the why. But really giving them, don't just shut down the website, have to sign up for them on there and make sure that's live, you know, 'cause I do sometimes see the websites shut down and we're not on sale until tomorrow, but why can't I sign up to be notified? It's little things like that. Just getting all of those ducks in a row and making sure that you are still in that acquisition load if you're going to go with one of those opportunities. - I think that that is so pertinent because I too have seen that. I'm like, great. But tomorrow I might forget. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, this is great. - I'm definitely going to forget it. - I can't get in the way. Can you just, can you just let me know tomorrow? Oh, Toby, you have given us so many. I want to see, let's try and do a quick recap, although I don't know if my notes will go through everything. So first of all, we talked about, well, I'm not going to say first of all, some of the things we talked about, really aligning how you acquire your customers with your brand value. One is definitely having that pre-during and post strategy for not just Black Friday, but whatever is your being periods. Like for some people, that might be the winter season. For some it might be the summer season. Whatever season that is, make sure you've got a plan in place and start early. Aligning the brand values with the kinds of offers that you're going to be giving out and knowing that you don't actually have to compete with the big guys. You don't have to do 50% off-store wide or 30% off-store wide. Understanding what your ROI looks like because your ROI could be very, very different than somebody else's. You don't know what's happening behind the scenes of another person's business. They may have so much stock that they need to liquidate it below cost to be able to pay the bills to make the space in the warehouse. Whereas you are like, you know what? I can afford to go and just get some customers. I guess don't build your campaigns off your competitors 'cause you don't know what's happening behind the scenes. Understanding the numbers is really important. Like you mentioned that right back from the beginning when you were working in the takeaway store, like understanding things like profit budget. And just think if you put your head in the sand when it comes to that, it's quite easy to find you make the sales and then you look up and you're like, but why is there any money in the bank? - Yeah, and why do I still have all of this debt or this stock I've paid for but I still don't have profits in the bank? It's not little, it's a big thing. No, you're unit economics, right? Yeah. - Segmenting our email list, creating different offers for those different people. Like we covered so much, I'm up to 10 already. I have you two hands, I'm out now. There were more than 10 takeaways from today's episode. Thank you, Toby. - I hope there was some good, I hope there was some gold in there. We definitely touched on a lot of things but I think these are just the bread and butter of being in business too. This is what goes through every business on his mind and they're constantly checking in on a lot of these things. - I can't let you go before asking you, what is your favorite Shopify app? - So I would actually say, favorite part of Shopify before I go into the app is the pause. I was an earlier doctor on the point of sale before I was integrated with payment terminals even here in Australia but love Shopify point of sale. I think we've got incredible amount of engineers really developing the solution now and it's, as you said before, the changes and the updates are coming thick and fast. My favorite app at the moment that I'm seeing is called order editing. And I love this app. - Not only reducing the incredible amount of post-purchase tickets that come through to support desks but giving them the opportunity to continue to upsell to the customer. If they've forgotten to add something to their cart, if they wanted to take express shipping and they didn't giving them this window of opportunity whether it's 20, 30 minutes or even three hours before you're going to ship the order, I think is a secret source and can't wait to see what those guys do. - I love that you said that because that is one of the strategies, one of my secret strategies that I used to get somebody from very low six figures to a million dollars run rate in just a couple of months was that app was the difference between making six figures, a year and making six figures a month. And that sounds, that's a story for another time but I love that no one ever talks about these things. That's one of my favorite things, thank you. - Go and check it out, it's great, love it. - All right, Toby, thank you so much for all of the golden nuggets that you've given us for that favorite app that you didn't even stop right at the end, right to the end you were dropping great big knowledge bombs on us with that app. So thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your story, your knowledge, all the information and I'm sure that people listening can walk away with at least one thing that they can implement today. - Thank you so much, Stella. And good luck with Black Friday for everyone partaking. I hope it's an excellent time. So that's a wrap. I'd love to hear what insight you've gotten from this episode and how you're going to put it into action. If you're a social kind of person, follow me at the Selena night and make sure to leave a comment and let me know. And if this episode made you think a little bit differently or gave you some inspiration or perhaps gave you the kick that you needed to take action, then please take a couple of minutes to leave me a review on your platform of choice because the more reviews the show gets, the more independent retail and e-commerce stores just like yours that we can help to scale. And when that happens, it's a win for you, a win for your community and a win for your customers. I'll see you on the next episode. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) You
