Sometimes, all you need to do to get a cookbook deal is say you quit, just kidding. But today our guest is someone who found her cookbook deal when she was ready to give up. (upbeat music) Welcome to Everything Cookbooks, the podcast for writers, readers, and cooks. This is Kristen Donnelly, and today I'm here with Kate Laihe. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - Hey, Kate. - Hey, Kristen. - I'm really looking forward to this conversation because this is a cookbook that we're gonna talk about that I can't wait to cook from. - Same. It's a book that almost might have never been made had the author just if she had given up, right? - Yeah, so our guest today is Caroline Cho. She's a chef, artist, teacher, and writer based in New York City. And she always says she's the proud daughter of Korean American immigrants. She has been working in food for many, many years in many different facets. And I'm really excited to talk to her about that. But I've heard her say before, like, she's done. I'm done with this, I'm done with this world, I've done with this career. And then a couple of months ago, I get a preview copy of her book, Banchan, 60 Korean American recipes for delicious, shareable sides, and it's out from Chronicle. I'm like, clearly, she is not done, and she's got a lot to say. - Yeah, and Banchan is one of my favorite parts of a Korean meal, and to have a book that packages it also is so wonderfully and beautifully. It's a real treat, so let's go ahead and bring her on. (upbeat music) - Caroline, welcome to Everything Cookbooks. - Yay. - And congrats on your first cookbook. - Thank you, thank you so much. - Before we get into talking about your book, we'd love to talk to you about just your varied career in food and media. You're such a multi-passionate person, so. Post-college, I began my career basically in education, and that wasn't entirely intentional. I was very resistant to becoming a teacher, because I was like, I don't want to do it, I just wanna be an artist, and then realizing the art world isn't really offering me anything either. I found a teaching job because early childhood, as it turns out, loves artists. So I started an early childhood job, and then it came into more education jobs, because I realized I loved it very much. And it was really something to teach you about, A, professionalism, but B, also. Really just how to be with people. The big challenge, I'm sure, as many of us know, is like being with young children is a challenge, because they don't really have a lot of the emotional capacity or understanding. However, there is so much emotional intelligence that we can learn from them. Just doing that has kind of set me up for furthering my career. So then I went to get a master's in art education, I thought that was the trajectory I was on. But truthfully, it was just, food was always kind of in the background cooking, it was always kind of a refuge. It very much was the way that my family bonded, and it still is the way that we all bond. The cliche is always, it bridges people and always brings us together, but that really is what it did in my life. It really did kind of, over every difference, and I'm talking every personal and difference that there is between older generations and younger generations. With every education job I had, that was also something, because we would always congregate over meals, essentially at lunchtime, and there would be schools I was in that gathered around the whole table, and then there were schools I was in where we eat in our classrooms with the children. There was always a cooking part of the curriculum, which also kind of went into math, it went into science and went into very sensory details. Pretty much, it ended up becoming something I was very much volunteering to do. The cooking curriculum just kind of leewayed into school auctions and auctioning, helping the school raise money. I would always auction off art and cooking lessons. They always sold really well, and when it was time for me to start thinking about, because I kind of hit a wall, despite having a master's degree in art ed, I was hitting a wall with that career as well, and finding a teaching job in New York City that would pay me properly for art education, and also art ed is a great job to have, just FYI. The problem was that despite being in New York City, the art jobs were kind of slim, and then I formed my own business because of it, and went to see who wanted art lessons for their children, or cooking lessons, and the cooking lessons were very much outweighing the art lessons after a while. Really? Yeah, because I was coming to their homes. I was coming to their homes, and it was a way to just keep the creative juices flowing. That was my gift. I loved teaching, I still love teaching, and that's pretty much where I've landed, is being a cooking teacher, a teaching chef. It just kind of is a way to merge your creativity all together, especially with writing. That's so interesting, though, because I could see you were almost testing out two concepts with your business, and cooking started outweighing the art, like just in terms of demand. So it's kind of like if art had been the one that maybe you would have done an art book and not a cookbook. Well, the funny thing about that was initially, I thought my book was going to have more illustration involved. That was the decision Chronicle had made, and the end was that this one wasn't going to have as many illustrations featured. I was a little crushed, but I was also like, you know what, it's okay. This was my first book. There's always room. You always just manifest. You're like room for more to come, and the illustrations that are featured are, well, you know, in the in jacket, in little things on like the bottom of the page and stuff, which given this was my first book, it was enough for me to handle, but hopefully for the next day. (laughing) - But that was great. - It was very unusual for an author to also do their own illustrations and the illustrations that are in the book are illustrations you did. - Yeah, it was still a good challenge to be able to do that. - Yeah, my sense with this being your first book, like it was a bit of a long road to get to the book. Is that right? - Very long. - Yeah. (laughing) - Very long. (laughing) - Yeah, like you're teaching, so you've been doing writing for various publications all over the place, online, print. - You've done TV, right? - I did one TV spot, yeah. - Okay. - And have you also done some food styling? - Not by choice. - Okay. (laughing) - I mean, the greatest part about living here is that you get to meet so many people who are in these professions. - Yeah. - And like to go back a little further, I didn't really know anyone when I came into this and the people I did know were both men. And the thing was you ask for help and I'm sure they got caught up in their lives or whatever their explanations were, but I didn't get any help from them or from really anybody. And when you are really trying to start somewhere new, knowing not a single soul, New York City is a wonderful place to go in not knowing anything. What I did was I started kind of just doing the thing that people do these days, which is Googling like New York City, food realm, that kind of thing. It basically was one of those things where I was like, I'm looking for any help starting this because I started as many did at the time on the blog realm, but I was in when blogging became like a skyrocketing thing and everyone had started food blogging, which was wonderful and also crowded in many ways only because there were so many out there. And on one end, it was very, very wonderful to see that everyone was sharing so much, but blogging's tiring as anyone would tell you. It also became something that I was like, I need something more than just blogging because at the time it was like you go on YouTube or you go become a blogger and then your whole career is going to take off, somebody's going to take notice, mine wasn't. So I had done both and then I finally just went, I need something more than this. And my husband and I went on a long road trip and I was visiting an old colleague of mine who had moved over to Sedona. And she had us visit one of the stupas over there and she said, I want you to just take the time, go around and meditate on what you want. My husband and I were both in a very, what we felt was a very stuck spot. So we just walked around and around and around and I still remember this. I said to myself or to whoever was listening, I really need help to move into this place that I'm hoping to get to. And I don't know anyone and it's really hard to try to do and I just really could use some direction. And sure enough, I met Holly Meyer, who is a Danny Meyer's daughter, but I did not know that at the time. She was graduating from Yale. She started Umi Kitchen, which was a community based organization that was about home cooks basically sharing their food or also selling their food within their community. I contacted her and I was just, let's see what this is all about. Though Umi is no longer here, it was a way to meet so many people in New York City who were in hospitality, who did have a background in classical training, or they were just somebody who was starting a business based off of a passion. It was from all different realms because again, as we know, a lot of us have been looked at as not a classically trained chef and so kind of get written off, especially if you're a woman and especially if you are a POC woman sometimes, I'm just glad that I was able to get to that point and whether or not it came from a much higher calling than me, I'm so thankful because I think it would be tougher in any other city that didn't have quite as much resourcefulness with people. You can build that network. It's not easy, I, for the record, and I will see this on record, I do not like networking. I don't, I'm a social person, but to have that much on in your life, it's like, oh my God, hi, how are you? Did it? To me, it's not true to who I am, but it's also necessary. So let's go into your book, Bunchon. Tell us about when you got the idea for the book. I was doing this business for 12 years. I had tried getting an agent many, many times and I'm gonna fully confess this. So it had gotten so bad to the point that I told my husband 'cause one of them told me to meet her at a cafe. I told him, I said, you're gonna go sit in the back because I promise you this is gonna be over in five minutes. He understood, but he didn't, you know, just how brutal sometimes it can be. I think this one hurt the most because she was also Korean-American and she was about my age and I had high hopes 'cause I guess the person who referred me to her sounded very promising, the situation. And then long story short, we met. She was not kind and I couldn't help it. I started to cry because it was in front of her, very unprofessional, but I had had it. I know what I've earned at this point. I will never forget this. She said it at the meeting because how do you think I feel? I have to reject everybody. I just, I'm like, to this day, I'm not kidding. It's been something I've had to push away because I'm just like, that stays. You do not forget moments like that. So after that, I didn't see an agent for five years and because of my network, again, just like people you don't expect to get this genuine response from because we all say it. We all say that we need to advocate for each other. We need to build community. We need to support. There's only a few people who are really following through and that's another thing to accept but because a friend of mine did listen to me and she was a person who was very capable of support. That was the week that I had quit. I had decided I quit, I'm done. I can't do this anymore. It was because I had found out that a publication I was freelancing with did not even contact me for a job and I found out on social media. I just went, I'm finished. Then Jasmine called me the end of that week where I said I quit. That was the third time I had said that in this career. (laughing) The funny thing is after every time I had said I quit, something comes out of nowhere and says like, "No, you're not, you're not, pardon my French, "but no, I'm not, you stupid bitch." Like, this is what you're doing. Like, go have your moment but then I'm gonna show you what you're gonna do. Jasmine was on the phone and she goes, "Hey, listen, like, do you have a moment?" And I said, "Sure." And she goes, "My agent wants to meet you." And I was like, " Agents never wanna meet me. "Like, what's the catch?" And she told me Chronicle is looking for someone to write this book. I told them I can't do it but I know somebody who can. But I was extremely burnt out by that point. I was like, "Oh, I don't know if I can take "another meeting, another rejection." But I did take that meeting and the rest is history. - You had nothing to lose, exactly. - So the idea actually started with Chronicle. - And they came to you. That's awesome. - Yeah. - Did you have to then pull together like a proposal or what did that look like? - Well, for years I was trying to do that big proposal that everyone says you need to do. But this time it was different because I was getting a lot of help from my agent and from Chronicle. My agent was like, "Okay, we're just gonna put together "this proposal and we're going to basically get it to them." And I saw the proposal and I'm like, "This is so not what we were told "that we had to put together." I mean, it was still very thorough. Don't get me wrong, but it was much shorter than all the information that they tell you you have to submit to be considered. I put it together with my agent because I think it was brought forth by the publication. It was a different scheme of things. Before we went into this, I had told them, "Listen, "I can't give you a Korean cookbook, "but I can give you a Korean American cookbook. "Is that okay?" And that was something I was very honest about and something that is sometimes hard to address with just a lot of people in a publication sometimes because there's not a lot of Korean Americans in a lot of publications yet. It was one of those things that I was hoping was gonna be understood. The Korean cookbook market is growing. However, I was like, the Korean American genre of food is still also kind of being socially accepted. There's still a lot of things that we gotta work on where Chinese American food is becoming something that's very known and acknowledged. Korean American food is still something that we're still kind of bringing in the homes of, especially for women, Korean American women, bringing forth a lot of this knowledge. I wanna say that that played into a lot of the decision making. I also learned in this process, I was like, "Wow, so this is how long it takes "to actually get all this off the ground." It's pretty crazy. Was it like several months between that phone call from Jasmine and then like? I still remember the timeframe. I first spoke to my agent, Lindsey, in October, 2022. We didn't get the contract rolled out until that January of the next year. And then it just started like, we need this by the first 15 recipes by this date. Luckily, because I had had a lot of experience at that point writing recipes for different publications that was a little easier than hammering out the first half, basically, a few months after that. Tell us about the recipe list because I love how you've organized it and how you've broken it into sort of the traditional, and then your kind of Korean American takes. I'm just really curious about like how you came up with the banchan that you wanted to include with your own twist on it as well. It kind of organically evolved. And there was a lot of discussion, actually, with the editorial team about that because in the genre of panchan, there's like three main categories. As I was taught, there were three main categories. One was the fermented vegetables, so kimchi fell into that. And there was the fresh vegetable rum, which was mutim and namur. And then there were also toriem, which was the soy braised and soy marinated foods. But however, I wanted to kind of answer the questions or take that opportunity to answer the questions, which was when you go to Korean barbecue, you see that there's a stew involved and there's the ordering of pancakes sometimes, or different dishes on the table. I'll be honest, I get tired of answering the question. Like, what is this? What is this? I'm like, guys, just eat it. - Just eat it. - And slow down, like, ask questions later, okay? It's like a rock concert. I don't know this song, okay, well, listen to it and decide if you like it or not. But in terms of the organization, we were trying to figure out how we could best separate them. What they came up with was how to best separate them, cold and hot from my kitchen, from my parents' kitchen. And yeah, that was kind of how it ended up being because one of the intentions that I wanted to have with this book was that it didn't have to be, just like any cookbook, you don't want it to be intimidating, nor appalling to people to help them to cook. For a lot of folks who have written Korean cookbooks, they're beautiful and they're wonderful, but it can get overwhelming. The feedback that I got in my R&D was that it was, oh, still overwhelming for a lot of people. And as a teacher, you kind of go, okay, so how can we best approach this without A, making it seem like we're in a museum with things you can't touch or how can we not make it look like, I'm teaching this to a three year old, basically. So I was like, there's a medium in which we can do this in which it can still be a sophisticated cookbook, but it can be a go-to in case somebody wants to put it on their shelf and use it for tonight's dinner or the clean out how I saw it was organized was just Korean versus Korean American recipes, but my explanations for each one, but some of the recipes are not seen as traditional pun-tun, but even Meng T said, if you serve it in small dishes, it can be anything. - That's actually a great way to, you gotta define what you're talking about, Ray. - Yeah, yeah. - I was saying, I'm sure it'll be confusing for some, but my hope is they read the top to get the explanation. - Well, and honestly, I'm looking at the recipe list and I felt like so much has been made clear to me, just thinking about bun-chun in those categories. It was just very helpful. And then seeing that you can have your parents' version and your version as well, like in separate categories. I'm curious though, I think you write about this in your book about how it's challenging to get recipes out of our parents' generation. So how did you get some of these recipes down? - I'm like deep breath, deep breath. (all laughing) - You know, you listen to so many conversations as you go through it, but also you participate in them, especially in the POC realm. How many of us have parents who actually wrote things down? I still remember the first time my dad tried teaching me his card be recipe. It was a snowy day, we were locked in, we had frozen meat. I was like, hey, dad, do you think we could make some? I will never forget this. And I was like, okay, so how do we do this? And he goes, you need an inch of rain obsessing me oil. I'm like, what? - That's me. - And I just went, but my inch of rain to his inch of rain apparently was not the correct inch of rain, the inch of snow of sugar. So I knew this was gonna present its challenges. And the thing is, my mother, as I found out, hated cooking, but she did have her favorite still, so that was where she was gonna be helpful. My dad was kind of a little more apprehensive, but then I just said, hey, this is my job. You want me to do well, right? You want me to make money, right? And he's just like, well, yes. I'm like, okay, then you're gonna have to guess get over yourself. But because he was freshly retired, I think this was gonna pose a new project or something to do. However, he likes to seize the rains and be like, this is my book now. I'm like, no, no, it's not, but nice try. - Relax. - Relax, yeah. It was an adventure, but it was also extremely educational because, you know, it's like, again, there's a lot of gatekeeping and a lot of Korean cooking, but I also know that comes from a place of them wanting to see things done right, quote unquote, whatever right entails. The truth is, when Korean American food, or Korean food was being, you know, very much, in the beginning of the widespread blast of awesomeness that it is now, it was done in such a way that was still very exoticized. What Americans knew about, oh god, I remember going to TGI Fridays of all places, they had put Korean style ribs on their menu and I remember being like, for shits and giggles, let's see what this is all about. And it was made Chinese style covered in cornstarch and with a, you know, a soy sesame glaze over it. I'm like, this is so not what this is. So it was kind of one of those things while I was writing it, there was this very much like pressure, I wanna say on the back of my neck always of, you know, like people are gonna hate me for this, people are gonna hate this book, people are gonna, I'm sure these are things that people go through all the time when they're writing. But to me, I was like, but this is my story. This is only my story and my family, my book, my recipes. There's going to be a huge need for those folks who maybe it'll piss off, or at least they'll find that they want more from it. And I'll say, this is where you come in, we need you too. Again, we're not a monolith and we all don't eat alike. But these are things that somebody might find some experience that they had as they were growing up. That's what I was also hoping to do, right? - It's cool that Chronicle let you make it like quite personal. Was there ever any pressure from the publisher for it to be more like general and less personal? - Yeah, I mean, that was I think the worry. I mean, I can't speak for Chronicle too avidly because only they could probably answer that question of what they really expected or wanted. I had to emphasize a lot that I said, it has to be personal because otherwise, it's just gonna be another book that kind of gets lost in the entire game of what this is. I joke around and I tell people, if you buy it and turn it into a coaster, that's fine, you, at least you bought it. But no, it's one of those things where I was like, there has to be a distinguishable voice in this because again, not everybody eats the same way. There was an argument I did have with the title. Now the title is kind of a mouthful. I'm not gonna lie about that. But there was an argument presented about whether or not we should call it modern Korean recipes or Korean American recipes. And this was very much towards the end and I was just like, as we all get, I was emotionally, mentally, physically exhausted. And I was like, are we really gonna talk about this now? - You know? - Yeah. - I took a minute, walked away because I didn't know how to respond to that. And then I had to just stand in my conviction. I said, no, it's Korean American recipes. And if it costs me sales overseas, then it's so it does it. But you cannot just say that this is a general Korean way of eating because it's not. That to me was very important. So there was still a lot of great things I learned from Chronicle putting together this book. But yeah, that was one thing that was very important to me was that there were pictures of me and my family and it especially because I said, there is still very much a generalization of what especially Korean women are supposed to look like. And I was like, I am not a skinny, you know, fair skinned, gorgeous woman, although I am beautiful. I look like many women out there, but I also, I'm a work in progress and none of us were meant to be perfect. It's also okay for people to see that this was what Korean American families can look like. This is American living and it's American immigrant children living. - And there's something really important about that too in a day where people can get recipes all over the place that if there's a book that doesn't have a really specific point of view, it doesn't feel relevant now. We really wanna know who the person is behind the recipes that we're cooking from. I think more than ever. - Yeah, the other part of it was that Asian culture in general, I wanna say is still, it's a culture that's still learning, but it's also to actually be more personal with people. You know, this is the life and this is what it is and there's nothing very private about it, though there is still privacy in it. I have a beautiful big family and I'm very proud of them, especially of us younger generations of what we've been able to do with our lives. PS like it was not necessarily typical of me to go into this job and this career. I have to remember this for my parents who worry all the time about what direction I'm going in. These things are ingrained and they matter because there is a matter of sacrifice that was made. So it's a similar story to what a lot of people can share, have shared, I put up that post in my Instagram of showing them this book when the advanced copy came out and their reaction to it. My dad always has something to say guys. He always has something to say always. This time he just was very quiet and he just went through the book and I just remember the feeling I got while he was looking through it because for once he wasn't saying anything he was just very, I think, overwhelmed. He read the whole thing. He was, I think he was more so proud of his avocado kimchi nigiri recipe and how it was displayed. Thank you Julia and my food stylist and there's all the photographer, but for them this is new as well to see their daughter going and doing this because I don't think a lot of women did this when they were coming to the States and seeing how things were done because to them I'm always gonna be a young kid. They're still always gonna have their opinions about it but this again is a shared experience. A lot of people can relate to it. - Yeah, so photography and design, how involved were you? - I actually didn't know I was supposed to do that. I didn't know anything going in. This was the part that full disclosure I was very worried about only because I'd never heralded a photo shoot before. I didn't even know what to ask or how much. I thank God there were people before me who told me how much they were supposed to cost. So thank you Eric Kim and thank you again, my food stylist Julia who's been my friend for a very long time. And I just remember that I wasn't sure of what was expected of me. And so I had at one point two weeks out from when we were about to shoot. I just remember going to, called like an emergency meeting and I said like, I can give you back all your money. I don't think I can do this. Like I don't know what I'm doing, how to respond to anybody. Guys, I'd never spent this much money in my life all at once except for my wedding basically. In the end they talked me down, my agent and my editor Claire. They're like, listen, this is a lot to take on and we're here to answer any questions. But, you know, sometimes despite the fact that you know people are there to help, it's like you don't even know where to start. So I asked Gazal, Gazal, Baddio Zamani, highly recommending her. She was so amazing for me to start with. She was very accommodating. She knew how nervous I was. She goes, listen, we're gonna have a good time here. Like that kind of thing. And I asked her if she needed me to be there. And she said, if we do have questions to ask, I would like for you to be nearby. She had a small division of the room in the back of the studio where I just kind of stayed there and I would work on copy edits and it did work out. Being there on the first day I had my hands shoved in my pockets because I didn't know what to do. You get so used to being proactive and the captain of the ship who walks around and like has to do the work to get things done. And for once, I was like, guys, this is really weird. It's really weird because I'm used to doing everything. So forgive me if feels like I'm hovering because I'm like, for once I don't have to do anything unless I'm asked, yet everyone is here doing this job. I insisted to have a set with all women, if possible, especially Asian American women. Chronicle had pointed me in the direction of Ghazal. We would exchange stories about our parents and our families and Julia Choi Rodriguez was my food stylist and she was very instrumental and being able to put together these dishes probably without even reading the ingredients and also offering her feedback for the Korean American dishes. And for me, you're kind of like chattering your teeth and like, you know, tapping yourself, kind of be like, oh God, like what's the response gonna be? Because again, you've tested and tested and tested these recipes, but you're just like, you have no idea what's gonna happen when someone else is going to do this for the professional shoot. It was wonderful being on set. If I was tired, I was like, God, I can only imagine how tired they are. But we had fun. I mean, I had fun. It was just me learning from them on what to expect some of them were mothers. And it was just kind of one of those things where I was like, we're all coming from different places. There is the sense of guilt I felt for like, I know you guys are here, I know you guys are working, but there is guilt in me that I'm like, I know this is taking time away from you, from your kids because we would get out of offset at like six o'clock, seven o'clock, get there at nine a.m. Again, I know that's very typical, but, and Nicole, what a G was nursing, like pumping while she was doing her job. And I just kind of went, we're amazing. We are amazing. Why are we not getting more for what we do as women? I was just like, this is incredible. I really hope to work with them all again because they were just wonderful to work with. Really wonderful. - That's awesome. We're actually talking to you before your book tour, you know, a tour coming up, which is pretty awesome. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You're doing a lot of like talks with other people. Did you plan the tour? Did you work with Chronicle on that? And is this kind of where like, the network comes into play all those years and years of networking? Yeah. - Oh gosh. Again, thankful, thankful, thankful to people who have done this before me, who were very open about their experience. 'Cause again, my fear was that people would kind of be not helpful. 'Cause they sometimes haven't been, they kind of just go, you'll figure it out. And the thing was, it was a shell, I was shell shocked to find out that you had to do your own book tour, you had to arrange that. Even for the most accomplished authors that I know, were like, yeah, you don't really get a lot of help in terms of arranging it yourself. I think Eric, my brother, Eric Kim, he's wonderful and awesome. And again, had come out with a Korean American cookbook beforehand, you know, I'm older than him, but it was very much like a camaraderie and whenever I would be crying or feeling helpless and just like, I'm not doing a good job no matter what I do, he would be very much, okay, let's talk this through, what's going on. And we would share experiences. Gearing up for tour was, again, kind of a shell shock. So this is where when you're a media writer, you comes into play, it's just like sleuthing and just kind of like studying, looking at where are the places we wanna go, where do we wanna start? It's such a broad plane. And because unfortunately, my budget didn't allow for a PR person as well, I was just like, already gonna have to dig into that, you know, what we've learned so far. I pretty much started taking notes writing down the bookstores I would visit, the people that I've talked to. I really wanted to work with a lot of AAPI-owned bookstores as much as possible, but also like a place that gives you a good feeling. And I'd seen a lot of the places people were going, I wish I could have gone, could go to every single one, and that's still the goal. But I wanted to start, a piece of advice I got was, you're in New York, you have a small budget, you're in a great city to do a lot of events, do a lot of events locally, then try to pick the cities that you know that have a population for you to go with. So that's why mainly I'm starting with New York, with DC, with places that I know people in, so that I don't have to be entirely alone, if no one's in the audience. I see that with love. I've had nightmares about being in a room and someone like telling me like, you know you have something today, right? And I'm like, what? I'm like, but there's nobody here. And they're like, oh, well, that's okay. The best thing I read was all these writers who are so accomplished and renowned, who have said, I've played too many empty rooms. Like, you know, I did a reading and only my cousin came through. Like, and trying to be very okay with that. There's been the challenges, but putting it together, I was just kind of like, this is the time to start calling in your favors, but also, you know, not that. It's about, let's see if we really get the support that we're hoping for. I noticed that people who are the most understanding of this are previous cookbook writers. My hope is that there's going to be more of a showing in my own community, but also that this can be a step forward in perceiving Korean American or Asian American cuisine as an American cuisine, but also that, you know, it's okay for us to tell this story. As wonderful as it is for Korean food to be celebrated, it also is one of those things. I'm like, I wish we were the ones telling the story that yes, we have Kimchi Mac and Cheez's and they're delicious, but like, I grew up having a lot of Kimchi and Cheez together. And although this was an amazing discovery for a lot of my non-Korean friends, I'm like, I wish we were the ones telling the story, but I also want to make sure that everybody can see that this is not all we are. So hopefully with the tour, I'll be able to get to meet new people. That was another shock was a book tour is not really supposed to financially help your sales or anything, but I was, yeah, I'm going to push back on that. I feel like it's different now. It goes back to your point on having a personality behind the book. I feel like now in the world of AI, people really want to know there's a real person. And the way you do that is in-person events. It could be 20 people at that event, but if they're all taking pictures and they're posting on Instagram, then it just kind of clarifies that this is a real person out in the world. I think you're doing all the things that I would be doing. If this were my book coming out in the world, I think you have a right to be really excited and proud. - Thank you. I went over this in therapy. I was just like, I really want to get to that excited point 'cause I'm so nervous. You want this to go really well, but also because there's a lot of trauma from all the journey to getting here, a lot of rejection and a lot of things that you don't want to have to tell yourself again, the cheap compensation is well, this is the lesson from all this. It's, I am so proud of being able to have helmed all of this however it does. And again, my hope is that for all the money that we'll get for the next one and all thoughts like that, I'm like, there is something you can do with just what you have right now. And my hope is not just to advocate for my book and my food, but also I was like, I need to speak up for us girls. Us girls are out there. We're doing our thing and especially create American women, even just here in New York City and all across America, we just don't get the same press and the same attention. And yet who is it that really taught us a lot of us how to cook our mothers, our aunts, our grandmothers? It's high time that I think that we get the same interest because the thing is if you all advocate for your women as much as you say you do and respect them and love them, I was like, you want to see us succeed too, right? So please pay attention because I really think people pay more attention to women in the culinary world and culinary media. We're going to push it forward. We are going to move this needle and you're going to hopefully pay us. And I hope you do for the work that we are ultimately putting in because we're putting in our 110%. - Going back to the pumping on set. - Right. (laughs) - Oh, it's just amazing, next level. - Now that you're waiting for this book to come out, any advice you would give to either the next generation of women who want to do a book or just really any first-time cookbook author? - Honestly, working with all women for the most part, I believe I'm most of the team on this has been like a good over 90% of a team of women I worked with in editorial in even the design of the book and of course my art team and my agent. I'm going to give you the same advice I was given which was stand in your conviction. Don't be afraid of an uncomfortable conversation. Even though it's tiring to have them after a while, you have to have them because otherwise you're just going to be resentful of how the experience is and caring resentment is heavy. It's heavy and the damn leaks when there's cracks that get in it, try to make sure that if you have something you really want in your book, that is your book, say something about it. I was afraid personally of what any consequence would be to anything I was saying. I was like maybe they'll just tell me to get off the project, maybe they'll just, you'll see it be seen as a difficult person to work with and you won't be asked again. And again, all these fears come into play because these are things we've even seen happen or they've happened to us. And I just want to tell any women out there or anyone who's making a cookbook, if this is important to you and you think it should be in, like I felt it was important for my face to be in there and pictures of my family. And I said, this is important to me. So my hope is that everybody knows that the worst anyone can ever tell you is no, but they won't know unless you say something. - I just saw something recently that said like, don't be the person who tells you no. Let somebody else tell you no. - I love that, that's great. - I love that. - Honestly, it's true though. You'll never know what the answer is unless you ask. And I know it's hard for a lot of people because a lot of us have been told no, a lot. And it just gets to the point that you get very tired of being told no all the time and it hurts, but it's also one of those things it's like you're gonna get to a yes, I promise you. We tell this to the children at my husband's school, the Asian American Affinity Group over there, which is that your voice is a muscle. Keep working it. Even if you're told no, that's another 10 pushups for your soul basically. - I love it. - Oh, I love that. - Yeah, that's great. And it only takes one yes. - I know. I mean, my hope is that we don't have to necessarily always have to be resilient. I'm hoping that people acknowledge the good job that we can do if we're given the job. - Those are such good words to end on. This was such a delightful conversation. I mean, I just feel like I think anyone listening to this is just me like, well, hey, they got to check out your book. And be just like taking it hard. I think we did an episode a while back on rejection and recovery. - Yeah, I saw that one. - And I feel like this is sort of the other side of that conversation. You shared so many wise words for our community. - It's gonna continue on. We're just gonna go pressing onward. And that's what I encourage anyone to do when you have a cheerleader in me in your section. - Thank you so much. - Thank you. - Thank you for listening to Everything Cookbooks. For more episodes and ways to contact us, go to our website, everythingcookbooks.com. The show is available wherever you get your audio. And if you like what you hear, please leave us a review. We're trying to get to 100 reviews by the end of the year. Any book mentioned in the show can be found on our affiliate page at bookshop.org. Thanks as always to our editor, Abby Circatella. Until next time, keep on writing, reading and cooking. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
Kristin and Kate speak with chef, artist, teacher and writer Caroline Choe about her debut cookbook, Banchan. Caroline shares her career journey and how her teaching experience and art background informs her work today. After a confluence of events caused her to declare that she was quitting the industry, ultimately she was hired to write this cookbook and brought her personal story, family recipes and illustration skills into the project. She talks about the importance of including family photos, not compromising on the title and jumping into the brand new experience of a cookbook photoshoot as well as her dedication to prioritizing working with women and the AAPI community.
