Gael García Bernal was basically fated to be an actor. His mom and dad were both in show business and his first starring role was in a Mexican telenovela when he was just 13. Then came iconic roles in Y tu mamá también , The Motorcycle Diaries, Coco and more. García Bernal's new show is La Máquina. He talks to Rachel about embracing mystery, being selfish in relationships and not wasting good abs.
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Wild Card with Rachel Martin
Gael García Bernal rejects certainty
This message comes from IKEA. Take your holiday hosting to the next level. IKEA offers a variety of delivery and pickup services like small order shipping. Discover hassle-free options to owning this season, and do the holidays your way with IKEA. Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn't true? [LAUGHTER] Yes. Okay, it's going to sound a little bit superficial. Well, take it. Growing up in the acting, you know, in the theater world, with actors, you know, I used to think actors are the most intelligent people in the planet. I'm Rachel Martin, and this is Wild Card, the game where cards control the conversation. [MUSIC] Each week, my guest chooses questions at random from a deck of cards. Pick a card one through three, questions about the memories, insights, and beliefs that have shaped them. I realized it was just, yeah, it was a complete facade, wasn't it? My guest this week is actor Gail Garcia Bernal. The job of being an actor is talking about what you don't know with the absolute certainty. I've had a lot of jobs in my life. I was a typist at an insurance company, an English teacher in Japan. I drove a bar cart around a golf course. I worked at a whitewater rafting company and an art gallery. What I'm saying is it took me more than a minute to figure out what my thing was, you know? I'm frankly still figuring this out to some degree, and I am a grown-ass woman. Other people get this gift early in their lives. A door opens, they go through it, and that's it. They found their place, their purpose, their thing. I'm pretty sure that's what happened to Gail Garcia Bernal. His dad was a film director and his mom and actress, so Gail was thrust into the business really young. He starred in a Mexican soap opera when he was just 13 years old. Then came theater school in London and a role in the film Amoris Peros, which was nominated for an Oscar for Best Foreign Film, and that changed everything. Next came his iconic role in Itu Mamatambien, alongside his lifelong friend Diego Luna. There had never been a coming-of-age movie like this one. It challenged all the norms around masculinity and sexual discovery, and in that movie, we see the beginnings of a long career for Gail Garcia Bernal, one that would be filled with surprising magical roles that upend the audience's expectations, just like in his new limited series on Hulu called La Machina. With each new film or show, it's like he is just as hungry as he was in the early stages of his career. Acting came for him early, and it stuck, and we are so lucky it did. Gail Garcia Bernal, welcome to Wild Card. Thank you. Thank you so much, and thank you for the beautiful introduction. Thank you. Oh, I'm so, so glad to get to talk to you. I've been following your career a very long time, and the show I didn't get to shout out in the intro was Mozart in The Jungle, because I loved that show so much. It just transported me, and it was so magic, so thank you in particular for that one. Oh, I thank you, thank you. I love that one also. Oh, so fun. So, this is a game we're going to do. I know you have a young child, right? Do you play games a lot? I have three kids. You have three young kids? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, two of them are not so young now. They're 15 and 13, but I have a little one, but it's three. So, there are games in your life. Oh, all the time, yeah. There's mind games. Oh, yeah, right, the mind games. That's true, that's true. There's all kinds of different games you play as a parent. All right, well, this is not a mind game per se. I think it'll be more enjoyable than that. So, I'm going to tell you how this is going to go down, all right? I've got a deck of cards in front of me. Each one has a question on it that I would love for you to answer. I am going to hold up three at a time, and then you choose one at random, and that'll be the question that you answer, okay? Oh, perfect, okay. You have two tools at your disposal. You get one skip, so if a question just isn't resonating with you, just skip it, and I'll pick another one from the deck at random, okay? You get one flip as well, so you can flip the question on me, and I will answer it before you do. This is useful if you just need to buy a little time for yourself. Okay, okay. Come to learn. We're going to break it up into three rounds, and we're going to put a few questions in each round. Okay, excellent. -You ready? -Yes, absolutely. All right, let's go. First, three cards. One, two, or three, Gail. Let's do the, yeah, the first one I thought of, like the one that is on my left, that is on your right, exactly. Okay, I like the specificity. What's a place where you feel like the best version of yourself? Okay, okay, so, like you said in your wonderful and beautiful introduction, I grew up in the theatre with my parents. Like it felt like when I was a kid, the theatre and life were very intertwined. The stage was just a step away, so in a way I always, you know, I felt I realized, when growing up a little bit, that I was born into something special, into a world that is very unique. And the more I grew up, the more I saw the difference. There was the outside, and there was the inside. There was my home, and there was the world. And so I tried many times, and this might add some gray areas to what you were saying about knowing what you want in life right from the start, because there was a big moment in my adolescence that I didn't want to be an actor. I was completely, yes, and absolutely reluctant to do it, because that's where I was born in a way, that's the place that I was, sort of, yeah, it was handy for me, you know? So I wanted the challenge of something else, and I had other curiosities with archaeology, or sociology, or anthropology. Philosophy, I studied philosophy in the Mexican Unam, in the National Autonomous University. And so I tried my best to not become an actor, and it was impossible to escape it. For me, it isn't the acting, it isn't being on stage. Right, it's not pretending to be other people, actually, yeah. It is the smell of the place. It is like a temple kind of thing. It is the place where I know that everything will be OK. There is this moment of incredible tension and excitement before going on stage, before appearing. And then when you're there, everything is amazing. Everything is just incredible. So I think I'm the best version of myself, because first of all, I don't know who I am. So I guess the best of myself kind of-- not shines through, but kind of like is incredibly-- that's what we see in an actor when we look at their performances. We know they are someone else. I'd never thought about it that way, though, that it can seem counterintuitive to say, I am the truest, best version of myself when I am acting. That seems like a major contradiction. Yeah, yeah. I think it took me a while to come to terms and also to comment these with that, because I was reluctant about that. I saw acting as something else when I was young. And I started to find like, oh, this is quite an existential journey to interpret someone and to be an inter-beautical as well and cathartic. And you can sublimate so many things. Right. OK, three more cards. Yes. OK, cool. One, two, three. The center one. Two. Yes. What period of your life do you often daydream about? OK, oh, my god, that one goes deep. So I daydream a lot about the moments I spent with my father. He passed away two years ago to know more, a little bit more. And I'm sorry. And thank you, thank you. And I daydream a lot about those moments. Because for example, I learned how to read with him. There were a few elements. There was the newspapers and Scrabble. Those were my Montessori elements to learn how to read and write. And I would love when there was a huge paragraph. Because it was like, oh, perfect, I have to read this loud. It was like, I've got this new technique of knowing how to do this, and I would read it loud. And he would ask me to talk to me. And I was like, yeah, let's read the news and tell me what's happening in the world. And I would tell him. I would read the newspaper, and he was really-- I don't know, he found it really funny, I guess. You were presenting it. You were ever the theater kid. That's lovely. But having that kind of like complicity with him, I would think of, and I would get very emotional about whatever. But now it became a daydream. I think the daydreams are where you. Yeah, that's how you keep them alive. That's how you remember them. In what you just described, a daydream is just keeping that memory of them present, just living in that memory. And that's a lovely thing. Yeah, I'm wondering if it happened also. The moments, those key moments, as a kid, you know? Oh, yeah, right. Is it a real thing that happened, or is it just a story someone told you and how you made it a memory, I know? Exactly. But not judging it as a kind of like a thriller-esque kind of like investigation, did it really happen? I mean, was I lied to him? No, no, not in that sense. But did it happen that way? Did it happen, it was there, you know, like, how was it? How soft was it, how elongated was it? How, I don't know, how, yeah. It's frustrating that we won't ever know the truth of that, right? Because it's a lifetime of putting layers and layers and layers on those memories. And they get shortened, or they expand. And I don't know, you sort of have to be just graceful and gracious with the whole thing and just acknowledge that this is how it is stuck with you. And we won't know the truth of how it actually went down. What book was he reading to you when you learned how to read? Exactly, exactly. Coming up, we talk about abs, butts, and the effect of time on the body. This message comes from Charles Schwab. When it comes to managing your wealth, Schwab gives you more choices, like full service wealth management and advice when you need it. You can also invest on your own and trade on think or swim. Visit Schwab.com to learn more. This message comes from IBM. Think scaling AI is hard? Think again. With Watson X, you can deploy AI across any environment, above the clouds helping pilots navigate flights, and on lots of clouds helping employees automate tasks. On PRIM, so designers can access proprietary data, and on the edge, so remote bank tellers can assist customers. Watson X works anywhere, so you can scale AI everywhere. Learn more at IBM.com/watsonx. IBM, let's create. This message comes from Sun and Ski Sports, helping families make memories on the mountain. This Black Friday, save up to 50% on top brands for the outdoor adventurer in your life. With an extra 10% off, select items online from November 19th to December 2nd. Visit your local Sun and Ski Sports to shop exclusive in-store offers, like enter to win a $200 shopping spree, or explore Sun and Ski.com. Find yourself outside with Sun and Ski Sports. Support for NPR and the following message come from the Wallace Foundation, working to develop and share practices that can improve learning and enrichment for young people and the vitality of the arts for everyone. Ideas and information at WallaceFoundation.org. (upbeat music) - So we're gonna take a little break because I wanna talk about this project that you have launched with your dear friend Diego Luna. It's a new limited series, it's called La Machina. And you two put this project together, right? - Yep. - From soup to nuts, as they say. You play this aging Mexican boxer. Diego plays his manager. They get into some financial trouble, a lot of hijinks and so, you know, of all the projects that the two of you could work on and bring your talents to. Why was this one the one? - Oh, well, it took, it was wonderful to, I mean, 'cause you were saying, what was the phrase that you said from not soup? - Soup to nuts. - Soup to nuts, okay. This was from kebab to a boxing ring because we were deep in the snow in Berlin. And this is how Vienna thought it was for real. Like, we were there, I don't know if hangover or drunk, I don't know, like we were on that kind of like weird border. - Uh-huh. - And it was really late and so we were walking in the snow and we were at the film festival in Berlin and it's like, "Oh, let's go for kebab." And I was feeling very frustrated because I was preparing for a boxing role and I started to train boxing a lot and I started to love it. And the film never came about and I was really into it and I've always been a fan of boxing and Diego, my friend, he had just done a documentary on Julio Cesar Chavez who was one of the best Mexican boxer ever, and so he was really deep into the know of all the intricacies of what goes on there in the boxing world and everything. - And you had all this pent up skill and talent who was just discovered as a boxer. - And these abs that were amazing and this kind of like, "Yeah, exactly." - You're like, "I can't let these go to waste." - They can't let, exactly, let's do something now, now, now. - No, so it was like, okay, there were few elements that were right there from the beginning. It was boxing, it was, I'm gonna play the boxer, of course because I would be very offended if anyone thought otherwise. If anyone thought that Diego could play the boxer, it would be like, "Come on, like that, it's not--" He's a slight guy, yeah, he's a very slim, slight guy, yeah. - He looks like a manager. - He looks like a manager. - So he's a manager, I was going to play the boxer and we were gonna tell the anti-fable of a boxer losing in order to win their freedom, in order to escape from the trap of success as well. So we wanted to counter narrative the whole thing that exists always with boxing, in films or with even sports films. Like, it's always about that, it's always about the rise, or the kind of like the, no, but this is like, let's do something like this and let's do it in, of course, we're gonna do it in the boxing world of Mexico. There was Cara Oque involved also because we always thought that they should, like Cara Oque should be like their place of, of catharsis, you know, of these characters. - Don't get me started. I think Cara Oque is very underrated as a place of catharsis and community and magic, yes, with you. - Exactly, exactly. So we wanted to include that as well. And then Diego was gonna have a lot of prosthetics and kind of like, okay, to develop him, you know, to get him-- - He's got a lot of stuff on his face. Yeah, there's a lot of things happening. - And in his butt also, like in his, he's got a, like a very funky buck, like in his ass. Oh, he has like a butt prosthesis. - Yes. - Oh, I didn't notice that. I'm gonna have to go back and look at his time side. Well, I didn't know if time had not been kind to Diego over the years. Maybe that's just how his butt looked. - Exactly. - It's lovely to see you two collaborating again. It's a really wonderful story. (upbeat music) So we're gonna move on. - Okay. - Next round, one, two, or three? - Three. - Three. - Yes. - What have you found surprising about getting older? - Eh, surprising is that something similar that happens with Lamakina, with the character that I play in the series, is that now I know how to do things better, but my body's not responding as it used to now. So for example, with football, I play a lot of football and I just gave up because now it hurts. - Oh, no. - Yeah, and it hurts and I get hurt. But I think I played better than ever because now I know where to put my, where what position to be. - Right, right. - And it's like, oh man, like. - It was so cruel. - Yeah, it's so cruel. - Yeah, it's so cruel. - So it was surprising to find out. - I remember my grandfather when he was approaching 80, he was a really fit guy, very, very fit. He was a farmer and very strong hands, I remember. And, but I was aware of this cowboy hat. And I remember him standing and talking to my dad and saying, and he started to have some mental decline. And he was always so physically strong. And I remember him saying, I don't understand how this body is connected to this mind. Like he was, it was like, these two separate things happening. His body was actually getting, it wasn't deteriorating the way his mind was. So it's different than what you're saying. You're noticing your body decline, but I understand the bifurcation of both scenarios, right? It's like a separation that happens and it is equally cruel. - Yeah. - Okay, one, two, or three? - Eh, one. - One. - Yes. - What emotion do you understand better than all the others? - Than all the other people. (laughs) - Than all the other emotions. - Okay, okay. There's one thing I know for sure, and this is what the emotion I understand because I don't, I've never experienced it. Fortunately, it's jealousy. - Oh, interesting. - They are not jealous. And I, because I've wondered like, why am I not jealous? You know, like, I don't know why, like, I think I've never experienced that feeling. So I understand the, like, I understand not feeling it, you know? - Do you understand it because you haven't felt it, and thus you have spent time observing what it does to other people? - In a way, yes, and what it liberates me from. - Ah. - And I guess the, on the other side, on the contrary side of that would be like, I understand like, a sort of like an ethical loyalty with loved ones and friendship and work and, you know, and being in the same adventure. - Loyalty, that's a good one. - Yeah, a kind of a ethical sort of contract. - A fidelity, yeah. - That we unspoken, you know, kind of like a deal that we do, you know, with each other. So, and that they understand it really well because whenever I see it broken in a way, my heart breaks, I just, I completely shatter. Like, I go like, hmm, hmm, hmm, but I don't feel jealous. - You don't feel jealous, and you don't feel angry when you see others break a contract like that. - No, I just feel completely heartbroken. - Yeah, yeah, like, no, yeah. - It's a good one, Kyle, okay. - Thank you. - Okay, one, two, or three? - Two. - Two. When has selfishness served you well? - Oh, for sure. For sure, and, you know, in certain love relationships. - Yeah? - Yes, it has been very, very helpful to not feel that everything is your fault or that you're guilty or like your responsibility or, you know, like, is that your default? Is that something you tend to do? - Yeah, well, I guess, I guess, I mean, I guess all, I mean, everyone is in a kind of, right now, like, we always, the relationships occupy so much time of our conversations and our thoughts, and also these days, you know, in this kind of huge options that exist, you know, of how to be and how to engage in a relationship, you know? It's always a mystery, no, in a way. But for men, we haven't had like the language and the kind of like the sensitivity to create new concepts and new words to express what we feel, especially with each other. - Right. - And because women, I mean, feminism has done such a great job in evolving that scope of emotions and of understanding. - We have a lot of words. We have a lot of language and communication tools to express that. - Exactly, and therefore, where it comes to is that women are very good to accompany themselves. You know, they're very good at being with each other. It's strange, like, you're in a very primal kind of like, in a place with no words to express what's happening, you know? - Tell me how that relates to selfishness. - To selfishness, oh, yes. Yeah, 'cause I was getting lost, women. So I think that it's been good not to, you know, and it's good to feel a little bit selfish in a sense of protecting the certainties of what you desire in life. Sometimes, you know, you can be in a relationship with that. You really love each other, but it's just not a working relationship, you know? And it's good to feel okay, like, accept that, and not feel like you're doing something wrong, and that you're doing something that's, and that you have to change this and that. I thought, well, no, there's moments where it's like, but this is what it is. I don't know how to-- - Yeah, and this is what I want, and it's not coming through this relationship. - And it's not happening, yeah, and the love is there, but not, you know, but-- - Yeah. - And so, so yeah, I go, yeah, that makes sense. - Uh-huh, it does, I got it. - I got it. After the break, Gail shares why he doesn't look for certainty in life. This message comes from Midi Health. Women in midlife face a healthcare desert, but Midi is here to fill the gap, offering expert care for paramenipause and menopause covered by insurance, hot flashes, insomnia, brain fog, weight gain, and moodiness don't have to be accepted as just another part of aging. Midi clinicians understand how these symptoms can connect to menopause and prescribe a wide range of solutions. Book your visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinMIDI.com. - This message comes from Progressive and it's name your price tool. Say how much you want to pay for car insurance, and they'll show coverage options within your budget. Visit Progressive.com, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, price and coverage match limited by state law. This message comes from Progressive. What if comparing car insurance rates was as easy as putting on your favorite podcast? With Progressive, it is. Just visit their website to get a quote with all the coverages you want. You'll see Progressive's direct rate and their tool will provide options from other companies so you can compare. Then just choose the rate and coverage you like. Quote today at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates, comparison rates not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. (upbeat music) - Okay, we're moving to the last round. One, two or three. - Two. - Two. Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn't true? - Eh. (laughing) - Yes. Okay, it's gonna sound a little bit superficial. - I'll take it. - Okay, I was growing up in the acting with, you know, in the theater world, with actors, you know. I used to think actors are the most intelligent people in the planet. Like it's incredible. Like they are just, they are incredible because they know everything. The way they say it, the way they talk about things. And then I realized, I realized that the job of being an actor is talking about what you don't know with the absolute certainty. (laughing) And I was like, okay, okay. I realized it was just, yeah, it was a complete facade. Like it was nothing there. And then the, you know, in theater school and then working. I was like, actors are really like, there's really intelligent actors. There's some really, really. - There's some really intelligent actors, but there's some that are other type of intelligent. - That's right, other types. - Yes, other types of intelligent. - That was very generous, Gail. Okay, I like that. One, two, three. - Okay, one. - One. Have your feelings about death changed over time? - Oh yes, yes, it's changed a lot. Okay, well, I mean, definitely, I guess that the first time for me and for, must have been for many, many people as well is becoming a father, you know? It's like, for example, somebody the other day was telling me like, does anyone remember the name of the grandfather, of your grandfather? And I was like, no, it's anyone. I don't think no one remembers that I know that I can look for, that I can find or who knows. Like, wow, it's crazy how, you know, all these things that we gonna build, you know, and kind of like all these structures that we fight for or we kind of like try to achieve. And so therefore, you see that transcendence is something else, you know? And definitely with a baby, transcendence is there. No, there is something that is there and will continue and will live and will reproduce. Will be something else that you never, and you would just admire, but it is similar to what we do in films as well. I mean, my approach to them, to doing films is not, is trying to do something that is, and it might sound a little bit presumptuous, but it's like, try to do something that hopefully has some transcendence of something and you really want these films to kind of transcendence and hopefully be seen in many, many years because that's who we were at that point. - So what does that transcendence mean for you? Like, if you were to be able to convey one thing that lived on after you expire, what is the thing? - Well, fortunately many things that have been, and I've had a fortune of this, and this is very lucky also, like many of the things that I've participated in have helped amplify the dimensions of many discussions and of many conversations that had to happen in my time. These films have been emollients or catalysts of something, or have been accompanying certain issues. We can deal into these very interesting concepts of what is democracy. For example, I recommend that film now. Now, maybe you haven't seen it or not, but it's called "No" by Pablo La Raine. We did it in Chile a few years ago, and it is about the moment where they ousted Pinochet, and the dictator, and it's incredible. The whole sort of anthropological game that is played there because it is a project about democracy. What is democracy, you know, and I love doing that. So hopefully I wish that all these projects have a transcendence that I'm able to grasp as well and to feel, but that when I'm not here anymore, they will be seen as kind of like, oh, these guys made their best effort. These guys really tried to do something on day, and they were getting into something, or they were touching into interesting subjects. - Okay, the last question, one, two, or three? - One. - One. Do you think that there is a part of people that lives on after they die? - Mm-hmm, yes, I do. If not, I wouldn't be a, if I don't enjoy, not believe, but like enjoy or dwell on the mystery of things, then I think I wouldn't be an actor, because if I had the certainty, and I wouldn't have, and I would be like, I'm only about facts, then I would read the phone book. That would be my wonderful kind of like joy of reading the phone book. That is real, it's super real. So I love the mystery and the poetic behind all of it, but not as a believer, but mostly like that kind of enjoyment or curiosity, nothing ends, everything transforms, and that's a lot of physics, so it's, it is, and it is, I can feel it. I mean, there's so many examples, I can say, some of them are incredibly personal, but I wanna say like, yeah, I mean, I guess, okay, okay, now, coming out, like, okay, fine, I'll say it. My little daughter was born when we knew that my daughter was, that we were pregnant, my father passed away, like it was like, yeah. - Yeah. - So it was that kind of like tag team, yeah. (gentle music) - We end the show the same way every time. Here's how, with a trip in our memory time machine. Here we go, we're going, we're going, where you, Gail, pick one moment from your life to revisit. It's a moment you wouldn't change anything about, you would just like to linger there a little longer. - Okay, well, it gets very emotional, and, yeah, okay, is it right, say where it is, yes, okay. So, me and Diego, my very good friend, we said, okay, our team, Pumas of the National Autonomous University was getting to the final of the football, tournament, and this was our team, you know, when we were 10 and 11, and yeah, we were really young, and we said, like, we have to go to the final, we have to get it, we have to go. We got the tickets, and our team won, hey, and we were like completely, like, we were carried by so many people, so the fans were there, like, carrying us, and we were like, you know, jumping up and down, and the players came to where we were, you know, like, very close, and we were like, ah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah. And it was like, we were like 10 hours there, or something, just going crazy, you know, like going absolutely completely crazy, and, you know, it was so magical afterwards, walking out, you know, went back to our places, you know, like, feeling like, perhaps this is the only time we're ever gonna win in life, you know, we went there, just really, I don't know, being part of something, being, one thing to be part of something, and, yeah, one thing to be part of that community, so, and it was a beautiful moment. We, one of the best moments of my life, yeah. - Gail Garcia Bernal's new show is La Makina, and it's out on Hulu now. Gail, thank you for talking with me, it's been such a pleasure. - Thank you, thank you for this conversation, and it's nice to feel so, you know, open about, you know, being able to talk about all of this. - Yeah, I appreciate it. Good luck with everything. - If you liked this episode, you should check out my conversation with LeVar Burton. He's another person who found a lot of success early, but somehow just seemed so well-adjusted, and frankly, very calming to talk to. He was very lovely. - This episode was produced by Romel Wood, and edited by Dave Blanchard. It was fact-checked by Candice Vogue Court Camp, and mastered by Robert Rodriguez. Wild Card's executive producer is Beth Donovan. Our theme music is by Ron Tean, Our Bluey. You can reach out to us at wildcard@npr.org, we'll shuffle the deck and be back with more next week. See you then. - This message comes from Bombas. Socks, underwear, and t-shirts are the top three requested clothing items by people experiencing homelessness. Bombas makes all three and donates one item for every item purchased. Go to bombas.com/npr and use code NPR for 20% off. - This message comes from Made In Cookware. Did you know that many popular dishes in Tom Calicchio's craft restaurant are made in Made In Cookware? Their carbon steel cookware combines the best of cast iron and stainless clad, gets super hot, and is tough enough for grills or open flames. Remember what great dishes on menus worldwide have in common. They're made in Made In. Save up to 30% from now until December 8th. Visit madeincookware.com. That's M-A-D-E-I-N cookware.com. - This message comes from Jackson. Seek clarity and retirement planning at jackson.com. Jackson is short for Jackson Financial Inc. Jackson National Life Insurance Company, Lansing, Michigan, and Jackson National Life Insurance Company of New York, purchase New York.