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That's linkedin.com slash campaign terms and conditions apply linkedin The place to be to be Welcome to another episode of new books in religion. I'm your host Elliot bizano for every program We choose a new and exciting book and chat with the author today I have the pleasure of speaking with dr. Rick Strassman clinical associate professor of psychiatry at the University of New Mexico About his exciting book DMT and the soul of prophecy a new science of spiritual revelation in the Hebrew Bible published by Park Street Press in 2014 DMT and the soul of prophecy asks the number of provocative questions about drugs consciousness Prophecy and the Hebrew Bible with attention to how a particular chemical can help us understand mystical experience DMT or dimethyl tryptamine is a molecule endogenous to several mammals including humans As well as the active psychedelic ingredient in a number of plant species around the world Most notably in the Amazonium brew called ayahuasca Strassman's first book DMT the spirit molecule Showcases his research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico During which he injected several volunteers with DMT as part of a government-sanctioned research project During the trials volunteers experience the number of similar phenomena such as communication with other than human beings out of body experiences and Geometrically complex closed-eye visuals DMT and the soul of prophecy complement Strassman's first book But it also stands on its own and gives enough context of his DMT research to make sense of his arguments about prophecy in the Hebrew Bible This new monograph aims to further interpret the data from Strassman's experiments in the 90s By arguing that the notion of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible Offers a compelling model for what happens in the DMT state one might ask then if the Hebrew prophets were affected by DMT Although it's not possible to know for sure and Strassman doesn't claim that they were He nonetheless draws significant parallels between DMT experiences and prophetic states in the Hebrew Bible at the cross-section of biology psychology and religious studies Strassman's monograph is sure to spark provocative conversations about the relationship between religion drugs and the politics of research I hope you enjoy the interview and without further ado. Here's my conversation with dr. Rick Strassman Greetings Rick. Thank you so much for joining us this morning. Well, thanks for having me on your podcast today. I appreciate it Yeah, it's my pleasure and I've been looking forward to chatting with you about your book for a long time now and I was hoping we could first start off by You telling us a little bit about your educational background any influential mentors You've had and how you got interested in this topic of DMT and its relationship to prophecy in the Hebrew Bible Well, I was born and raised in Southern California went to public school Some K through 12 and Then I began my undergraduate training at Pomona College one of the five Claremont colleges in Southern, California Then transferred to Stanford as a junior Went to medical school at Albert Einstein college of medicine and the Bronx and then trained in general psychiatry at UC Davis in Sacramento took some Extra clinical psychopharmacology training in a fellowship at UC San Diego and then I Relocated to Albuquerque to the University of New Mexico and worked under training funds for a few more years You know within the academic world I've had a number of influential mentors I suppose my English high school teacher was a real inspiration because he encouraged me to write and to think strange ideas and not really Feel that constrained in the process and sometimes you know teachers in public schools were were quite supportive of you know my intellect and my worldview Well, you know encouraging, you know scientific experimentally based worldview In college I had a number of inspiring you know teachers One in particular was the instructor for a course on Indian Buddhism which was quite Which was quite eye-opening I'm also on I had a mentor and a friend in in in a In a faculty I'm a member named in Jim Fateman Who was the first to introduce me? You know to the notion of the pineal plant as a possible you know biological coral at your biological location of a spiritual experience And over the years, you know during my research, you know training. I You know had a number of mentors One of them was Daniel Freeman who worked at UCLA at the time and was quite an influential character in Americans in American psychiatry and He got his start you know doing an LSD studies in the 1950s and the 1960s and anytime See you know regulatory application funding, you know permanent process, you know got bogged down. I was always able to rely upon him to You know get things, you know going again. I'm also one of the You know very useful aspects of working with Dr. Freeman was his emphasis on just keeping my DMT study Which I'll you know talk about as straightforward and as simple and as non therapeutic and non spiritual as As possible, you know to just get the study off the ground And also and also at UNM. I had a you know really great Elementor at the time who it was kind of written cheating, you know Wild West cowboy kind of guy He just encouraged me to do whatever I wanted to you know within the field of clinical research and He's the person who supported my pineal gland study in the early 1980s and You know as a result of which I was able to establish myself as an independent clinical researcher You know in that in terms of spiritual mentors over the years I was raised in a conservative Jewish household when I was a kid and it you know wasn't been especially Inspiring Jewish education although I did spend you know six extra hours of school every week You know learning Hebrew and you know learning about Jewish culture and history You know we read a little bit of the Bible, but you know not that much and we really didn't Pray or learn to pray or even speak about you know the personal experience of God to any extent It was more of a cultural historical linguistic education And you know as a result I Still had a spiritual you know first at the time And I learned interesting dental Well, I learned you know transcendental meditation and the early 1970s you know because it was kind of a You know wide scale infusion of spirituality and to American consciousness at the time I Didn't especially you know find that to be Electually all that satisfying and you know then as a result of you know taking the back class in Indian Buddhism I started to To explore you know that tradition you know more and After a couple of years I Ended up studying and you know training under the supervision of some other than organization in northern, California and Spent over you know 20 years, you know working with them studying practicing with him You know I became a layman. I never was a monk or a priest but still I spent a lot of time and you know then practice meditation retreat Corresponding with the monks You know getting inspiration from the teacher there You know so I've always been interested in you know consciousness Spirituality was a good, you know venue for exploring that. Oh, you know I suppose well You know one you know question I'm asked occasionally as any You know childhood antecedents of my interest in the Altered states of consciousness, and I like you know to tell the story that as a kid I was really interested in in chemistry and particularly I was interested in fireworks and bombs And you know when I was in high school, I spent a lot of time you know learning how to make different kinds of bombs and fireworks And I actually began college as a chemistry major You know thinking I would you know become a you know fireworks magnate You know but everybody you know was discouraging of you know that particular idea and figured well you're smart You should be a doctor But I kind of got the last laugh because instead of making external fireworks I ended up you know doing this you know DMT Psychopharmacology study which produced a lot of internal fireworks. Yeah So since the this new book Relies a lot on your previous research could you'd say? spend a few minutes talking about what DMT is and How your previous research led you to this new project that takes a closer look at prophecy in the Hebrew Bible Yeah Well, I started becoming interested in the biology of spiritual experience in college You know I was a Stanford and Pomona in the late 60s early 70s, and you know there was an influx of consciousness altering technology at that time especially on the west coast and In particular, you know those were Eastern meditation practices and the psychedelic drugs And I was really impressed with the overlap in descriptions Between the experience of you know season meditators and the descriptions of the psychogol You know drug state So I began even at that point speculating that there must be some common biological denominator You know like the activation of some kind of spiritual reflex which was You know the result is either particular mental practices or particular You know chemical, you know alterations and brain chemistry so I Was first you know drawn to the pineal gland because of it's esoteric history as a spiritual organ in esoteric Physiology, you know in you know Hinduism and in Kabbalah and At the time there wasn't all that much you know known about male opponent Which is the primary you know product of the pineal gland? And so I you know, I learned as much as like as I could about on the pineal gland and about male opponent and you know there and in the late in the 70s early 80s, you know There was some In you know what there was some in the patient of you know psychoactive properties of male opponent You know and even possibly psychedelic one so I embarked on a very comprehensive study of the you know cycle of you know the cycle pharmacology of Melatonin and humans that was my first you know protocol it on at the University of New Mexico and It you know turned out that melatonin was only sedating as it's you know in in you know terms of it in a subjective effect and You know by that time I had learned about DMT you know, which is Compound it stands for dimethyl trip to me It's a you know chemical substance, which is closely related to melatonin and serotonin Which is a ubiquitous neurotransmitter in the brain That also occurs and quite a few plants in a thousand probably You know, but the most interesting aspect of DMT is it's a compound which is you know normally you know formed in a human body especially in the lungs and You know that had been known for you know 40 years or so You know, so I was discouraged with any you know psychedelic in a properties of melatonin But in the meantime I had learned about this naturally occurring human compounds in your DMT so I You know decided to Attempt a clinical study. I was giving DMT to people And I was speculating that if giving me DMT, you know replicated certain aspects of non drug spiritual experiences like the near death of state enlightenment state those kinds of You know syndromes that I could make a case for you know, naturally occurring DMT playing a role in those non-drug states So I started you know working on all of the paperwork and permits and you know funding required to do a DMT study and After a couple of years was able to begin that in 1990 So How did how did the interest in Hebrew Bible and prophecy develop then because on one level? It's a bit of a Turn and focus from your previous research Yeah, well Well, I was sort of ultimately led to or drawn to the notion of Hebrew Bible You know prosthetic Experience, you know because of the data which my DMT study generated You know like everybody else You know both within you know the larger culture and within you know the academic community. There's an emphasis on You know the unit is in a mystical state as the goal and the end point of the fact of dollars, you know drug experience And I think to a large extent, you know, that is a result of the influence exerted by the East You know by the term religious mentality Or you know the you know the Eastern religious, you know mindset of enlightenment as you know As you know being the ultimate, you know goal of spiritual practice and in State of enlightenment at least as I was you know taught within the Zen School is a you know formless state. It's a unit of state. There's no sense of self There's no content It's a you know merging with her total identification with you know the source of all being or existence This nonverbal. There's no content. It's ecstatic And you know so I was expecting those kinds of states to result from the DMT experience and you know and and And ironically, you know most of my volunteers also Expected those you know kinds of experiences to you know because you know the vast majority were you know Practitioners of Eastern meditation of you know some sort or another or you know, Rick You know pagan and mystical kinds of you know traditions You know, you know, but instead, you know, the unit of you know white light state of emptiness You know the vast majority Experienced you know highly interactive state of consciousness You know they maintain the you know, they maintain their sense of self You know they interacted with the content which were you know teaming and the DMT experience You know, they're you know, they were able to recall an exquisite detail You know the interactions that were taking place within the DMT world You know, so that was you know kind of Surprise both to me and the volunteers, you know of the nearly, you know five dozen volunteers in my study Oh, only one of them had what might be called, you know typical or classical You know formless in mystical enlightenment kind of experience You know, but the rest described States of extreme interaction and relatedness between themselves and the contents of the DMT state And you know rarely were the experiences, you know, you know, formerly you know blissful, you know, there were Often times, you know full of anxiety, and you know, they had to contend with that as well You know, so that was you know one of the issues is you know that the states that the people described weren't consistent with the You know with the unit of you know Buddhist enlightenment kind of model And you know, it's interesting as kind of, you know side notes If you look at the larger culture of the psychedelic in a community it's But it's all kind of you know, you know oriented towards you know towards the east You know toward the east in a religious You know model If you go into a headshot there's a breeder's And there's Buddhist statues and iconographies At the burning man, you know festival, you know the chilling out, you know, tent is called the zendo, you know Which is, you know, like a British meditation hall You know, so there's this infusion of the Eastern religious, you know, thought and and into both, you know The psychedelic, you know larger community and also the psychedelic, you know academic, you know research community as well And you well so another, you know issue Which ultimately, you know led me, you know to look Within the Hebrew biblical prophetic model With the reality basis of young people's experiences within my DMT study I'm like all the models that I brought to bear on my project, you know proposed, you know, the essential You know non-reality or unreality of the states that you know people have entered into You know the psychopharmacology model Would you know posit, you know that the experience is you know where your brain on drugs? You know the and you know the psychoanalytic model would propose it was the you know Visualization of unconscious, you know drives or impulses or conflict And even the Buddhist model, you know Well, you know the Zen Buddhist model anyway Would you know look at divisions as you know detritus on the way? You know to the more you know formless states You know but You know one of the most striking elements of the DMT experiences the strong you know sense of Reality that you know people come you know back with You know they describe the experience as on as being as real or even more real than everyday reality And you know so if I stood on any of those three You know models and interacting with my volunteers You know they were all you know all of those models were you know basically skeptical of you know the reality bases you know people's experiences and You know the volunteers you to pick that up and they started to you know close down in a somewhat anyway And I felt I was losing access to some of the most interesting aspects of their experiences You know so as a result at the time anyway, I conducted a you know thought experiment and you know Decided to treat their experiences as you know like a you know parallel alternate. You know levels In reality Which was as real as every day in reality And afterwards I was thinking I could start you know looking for models You know that could contain that kind of a world view or you know that kind of a notion well So before we get into Talking about the states of prophecy and how they relate to the DMT states Could you say a little bit about what typical DMT experiences were like for your volunteers? Obviously you you write really fascinating articulate accounts of these in in the books And I would encourage listeners to check out those accounts But just so that people could have kind of a sense of what we're we're talking about here Could you give a typical account of your volunteers experience? Well in our study. We gave DMT intravenously It's usually smoked recreationally or more accurately if you know vaporized and you know the vapor is inhaled But that's called smoking DMT But you know smoking or you know vaporizing a compound on a research You know what had been you know kind of intrusive and your people cough and you don't know You know any kind of toxicity, you know, so we decided to give it intravenously and We began this study in the early 1990s and at the time, you know DMT wasn't that well known so There were you know never the last a couple of our volunteers that have smoked being emptied before and you know They described the speed of onset and the quality of the fact of the the intravenous route To be comparable or perhaps even slightly, you know more intense and you know more rapid than the smoke treat You know so a typical experience on a large, you know dose of DMT given intravenously would be characterized by the effects beginning within a couple of heart beat actually and the effects were pieced maybe at the one to two minute point and Star resolving at around eight to ten minutes or so And then people would be pretty normal with in a half hour, you know 40 minutes But it was that first, you know few minutes where all of the action was What you know people would you know feel as the drug effects kicked in You know was an incredibly powerful experience, you know that they referred to as a rush and you know this was characterized by a you know feeling of intense acceleration and inner pressure Intertension yes some anxiety just because of the speed and you know the room if you know they had their eyes open or with their eyes closed They were struck you know to see you know the the pixelation of you know the visual field And you know then it would start to form you know rapidly, you know more things You know buzzing kaleidoscopic shapes of intense you know color in a saturation view And often times you know there was a sound which accompanied the rush to have a high pitch you know kind of whining sound and Well, so the rush would you know culminate in what would take place in most people you know being a Separation of their consciousness from their body and and you know then There and you know then their consciousness would enter into a world of light And it would be a continuation of the kaleidoscopic display of rapidly You know moving and you're morphing you know buzzing you Know designs You know but oftentimes in the vast majority of cases You know the kaleidoscopic energy of metric patterns Would coalesce into more you know recognizable object and you know those objects, you know could be you know kind of recognizable You know like plants and humanoid reptilian You know you know kinds of entities or beings You know sometimes, you know they were more abstract like you know furniture or statuary insect mechanical human hybrids or even machines and and And these beings were Intelligent you know, they were aware oftentimes they expected the entry of the volunteer and they began interacting with the volunteer You know, they could ask questions and be given answers, you know, they would do things to the volunteers You know somatically, you know, they would exchange information or you know provide information Yeah, they would reassure they would guard they might attack even And You know the volunteer was completely helpless, you know more or less than this rose of this state You know what was the expression and one of the Star Trek shows oh You know resistance was you know a futile, you know, but at the same time, you know, you couldn't negotiate, you know Somewhat with them and you know tempered the intensity Yeah, you know, so It all happened really quickly within the space of just a few minutes, but You know almost almost, you know formally, you know People would be quite surprised at the short amount of time that had actually passed in reality. You know, they would You know think, you know that the experience may have taken place over the space of a half hour 15 minutes even, you know when it actually, you know Just kind of unfolded over the space of a couple of minutes or so And you know they would then come down and You know, they would just be laying there on the hospital bed. You wouldn't really know what was going on You know if there if there pulse went up rather high and the blood pressure went up to a large extent You would know they're having a you know big experience If you know there wasn't much you know going on from the cardiovascular point of view you can assume, you know that the Experience wasn't quite as intense And you know then they would come down at the 20-30 minute points and we start, you know talking And we spend an hour kind of you know processing what is you know, just come through Well, great. So getting back to the idea of what kind of Cultural or religious models explain these kinds of experience you talked about the Azen Buddhist model of enlightenment that sees sort of the ground of being as avoid and emptiness even though it could be ecstatic, but what you observed in the DMT experiments was something different than that it was teeming with activity and visuals and sensations and so could we move to talking about the Hebrew Bible in particular now where You draw a lot of interesting parallels and you have different sections in the book ranging from emotions perception cognition volition relatedness, so obviously we don't have to talk about every single ones of these categories but could you say like what aspects of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible strike you the most as having useful models to help explain these DMT experiences Yeah, well, I started to you know look for other models and began exploring You know some of the ideas contained in you know contemporary modern physics dark matter parallel universes those you know kinds of notions and you know those were interesting, you know from the mechanistic point of view Yeah, but they seem you know kind of rooted mentory in terms of Anstering one of the most important, you know questions, you know for me, you know Which is the question of you know, what's the meaning of these states, you know? what is it good for and even though I could explain, you know some The experiences by you know positing that in a DMT I'm allowed you know the receiving characteristics of the brain mind complex to you know kind of You know peer into you know parallel levels on a reality It you know didn't really on address, you know the ethical, you know moral informational content Of the state, you know, what's it good for? It's a world any you know better off as a result of the you know the DMT experience you know, so then I started looking in and in Well, you know, so then I started looking in to the relatives, you know systems out there, you know, which could contain You know the DMT experience, you know, there was interactive as opposed to unitive And the experience was considered as real as everyday reality, you know, so I Spent a little time, you know thinking about you know Latin American shamanism, especially, you know the ayahuasca using variety You know, but another important element of you know, Hebrew Bible is You know cultural, you know resonance, you know with the Western mind um And you know one of the you know drawbacks of you know the shamanic model is it isn't especially You know, it isn't especially oriented, you know towards the one God It you know, it does You know take into account You know the teaming quality of the state and it's being as substantially Being a valid reality You know, but I think it's important if one is going, you know, to you know to develop this spiritual, you know Model of the psychedelic, you know, drug experience You know that it you know comports with and and you know resonates You know with the Western, you know religious sensibilities out there Also, you know the you know shamanic model on the least you know that being Introduced, you know to the West is a bit ethically, you know morally challenged And you know, obviously the church and other, you know religious institutions You know You know have gone through and you know continue going through there, you know fair share of moral lapses You would at least expect her, you know, hope that any new model, you know You know wouldn't be a throwback or you know like a regression in those areas You know, so I started to, you know, think about the Bible, you know for a well I was you know kind of Thrown, you know back in you know some ways, you know to looking at the Hebrew Bible as I mentioned earlier on I was raised in you know Jewish, you know culture but After I was bar mitzvah that I stopped, you know thinking about, you know, Judaism very much and then spent, you know, 20, 25 years Studying and you know practicing Zen You know as a result though of you know some of the writings that I was doing you know relating to Zen experience, you know To the psychedelic one Especially within the context of the importance in American or you know Western Buddhism Of you know the psychedelic experience and getting you know so many people interested in Buddhism You know I started to kind of speak out on about that and Well, it's interesting I You know began with my Buddhist practice that the monastery in you know my early 20s and quite a few of the monks You know they were there also, you know, we're in their early 20s and I kind of you know did a a and well I you know performed it in Well I performed in in an informal survey every chance, you know that I got with every you know I'm with everyone of the monks asking them if they had you know taken psychedelics You know earlier on and if it was important, you know to them in deciding to become a monk I would say in almost every case. You know that was the case You know that they had you know taken LSD and I got their first, you know glimpse of the possibility of an enlightened state and enlightened way of being and In your their cases it prompted them, you know to become you know monks you know, so I Would speak about these you know things in spiritual, you know counseling over the 20, you know years of Some of my affiliation with that community and it was all Okay, if it was you know done informally and off the radar, but you know once I started my BMT study started publishing and Then started to you know raise that question. Oh, you know, what is the relationship between? You know Buddhist practice and you know the fact about you know drug experience it you know got a little to you know politicized and You know those kinds of questions weren't welcome and after and after a while What was anything mean to you and I parted ways? and Yeah, that kind of and you know some ways, you know the silver lining, you know was that it You know give me an excuse to begin re-exploring But You know to re-explore my old roots on as there were You know both for Well, you know both for Well, you know my own spiritual purposes And also to start exploring you know the possibility You know that there might be a you know better model You know within the Bible or within the inner Jewish thought, you know for the DMT state so I Started to you know read the Bible Retop myself in a biblical Hebrew Start her reading the you know medieval Jewish, you know commentators, you know without which it's almost impossible to you know understand, you know what the text is actually saying and Over time, you know the notion of a prophetic state of consciousness began dawning on me And if it in them it and you know, it was quite It you know comported you know like a hand and a glove in a lot of ways with the DMT state and I suppose I ought to Maybe take a few minutes, you know to describe you know my definition of you know prophecy Yeah, you know because then you know the contemporary parlance most people think of it as predicting or foretelling You know But I Expand you know the definition within the context of the Hebrew Bible and use it You know to describe any spiritual experience which takes place in any figure in the text You know if it could be any vision any voices any out-of-body experience any state of great inspiration any communication or apprehension of you know God or his angels And you know sometimes you know there might be foretelling and predicting you know But it isn't you know necessary for the definition And if you know could occur in you know non-canonical individuals to you wouldn't you know necessarily have to Curate Isaiah or Ezekiel or you know Moses Or you know like a governor you know for example, you know, you know She was you know, there was maid servant and and you know she experienced You know some extremely You know prophetic states of interacting with and communicating with you know God's angels, you know, so If you use a more expanded, you know, you know definition of The prophetic state it opens up a whole happening or a whole, you know world of experience and If you look at those experiences, they're quite, you know similar, you know to the DMT state, you know they're teeming with content, you know, they're more real than real and You know there's interactions. There's information exchanged Well, I started off with comparing you know the phenomenology of the two states And I use you know the DMT state as the benchmark and and you know that investigation and in in the DMT study I You know develop specific, you know categories, you know for the content You know perceptual categories emotional ones, you know physical You know kinds of this you know kinds of effects You know volitional effects in those kinds of things, you know cognitive changes and You know, so then I started going through You know the Hebrew Bible quite carefully and I would then examples of you know perceptual on the sex working the content of the effects In order to make a you know side-by-side comparison of the DMT in prophetic states and it was quite striking the degree of overlap and similarity especially within you know the perceptual and You know specifically you know the visual effects, you know, but across the whole, you know range of categories, you know the emotional on the effects of fear anxiety Ecstasy would occur occasionally, but you know, you're not very often in the prophetic state You know the perceptual effects, you know the colors were quite comparable, you know the images spinning globe spinning wheels You know animals plants trees, you know humanoids in particular in the Bible, you know the angelic beings You know wings and eyes, you know the colors, you know the movement You know the sounds would be quite similar, you know the rushing of the waters In Ezekiel would be comparable to the kind of you know rushing sounds that people would hear In the beginning of you know the DMT state You know the out of body, you know the movements through space was the current in you know both the DMT and prophetic states You know there'd be you know hot and cold feelings in the body which occur in both states You know so there was quite striking, you know, you know the degree of you know phenomenological overlap And as I started comparing the two states more carefully You know they seemed like you know they were hand in glove, but I thought well, you know they aren't quite hand in glove, you know There's you know something missing here so What you know started you know to appear you know with the notion of relatedness and you know the interaction between the beings or the state and the experience sir You know so I you know then developed in a new category of you know what I called relatedness which would you know take into account the interactions and You know for them it became you know clear, you know why the prophetic state, you know same, you know somehow More you know fulsome than superior, you know to that of you know the DMT state You know the DMT volunteers were kind of stunned by their experience and they couldn't quite interact Quite as much or in the kind of you know way that they wanted to you know they're caught off guard. You know they were overwhelmed It was completely unexpected and when you read the Bible, you know oftentimes you know the Individual experiencing a you know pathetic state is able to interact. Oh, you know a lot more You know kind of comprehensively You know with the being they're able to ask questions. It's a you know more prolonged interactions And it also, you know helped me understand you know You know some of them more you know complex interactions Which would you know take place in the DMT experience? But weren't quite you know that well articulated by the volunteers for example You know things like being attacked or being healed or being guarded or being instructed And you know so it was especially within You know area of instruction which started to you know really you know makes a prophetic state to stand out as compared You know as compared to the DMT one. You know because the major You know the major You know thing that is being interacted or you know is you know being related in the book the DMT state and you know the prophetic one is you know the information you know what's the message and If you look at you know the text, you know, there's a prophetic message you know You know which is composed of you know extremely, you know beautiful language You know which has endured for thousands of years and has influenced economics and law and theology and architecture and art and aesthetics and philosophy and wisdom and You know science, you know natural science you know mathematics and if you look at and if you look at you know the message of of the DMT state Or even you know the psychedelic state in I'm in general It isn't especially verbal. You know, I have a friend and colleague at UC Santa Cruz his name on his dr. Ralph Abraham and you know he studied you know the mathematics of Vibration there for decades and And you know, you became Inspired, you know to look at that field of mathematics as a result of his you know, DMT experiences You know, which he's quite you're comfortable talking about You know, so you know, we've been kind of you know carrying on a a You know conversation the last few months about you know the message of the DMT state and And you know he is a Is of the opinion is open, you know one up, you know to the mathematical world But still it's it it isn't verbal especially, you know, there isn't like a teaching which you know You know from the world of mathematics You know, it is information, but it isn't you know, necessarily ethical or you know, moral, you know wisdom Which is you know at least potentially able to you know to enhance one's understanding of the DIT and Enhanced, you know, one's you know relationships, you know with the outside world I'm either other people or the environment, you know, so I still think you know That you know that the DMT state and you know the psychedelics update isn't especially, you know verbal If aesthetic is you know, you know, it took You know, it could be mathematical But if you look at the prophetic state, I'm as highly verbal and you know, so as a result of you know that donning you know, you know Starting to you know think about you know, the content of the prophetic message It you know, then you know, you know, led me You know to developing your categories, you know comparable, you know to the DMT, you know phenomenology categories But in in it of using the DMT state as of the default. I use the content of the Bible on As the default and you know developed a, you know manageable, you know number of categories You know such as the nature of God, you know the quality of ideal relationships those kinds of things the golden rule And you know then started, you know to compare the DMT state, you know To the prophetic one and you know, I'm even though In quantity, you know the DMT state, you know message, you know content was Was you know relatively meager in a lot of ways it comported, you know with the message of You know the prophetic state, you know when there was You know the opportunity to make that comparison Can you say something about the relevance of God and monotheism in terms of Looking to the Hebrew Bible and especially since one of your objectives that you talk about in the book is that You want to appeal to a Western audience and so therefore shamanism for example and lack of monotheism in certain cases could give people less familiarity and so in terms of comparing the prophetic model and the Hebrew Bible with DMT experiences, what's the relevance of God or monotheism in all of this? You know Well, you know one of the You know constant you know messages of The prophetic state or that the prophetic state contains is you know the presence of God and you know God's attributes and you know God's actions, you know, what does God like and what does God do and You really can't study the prophetic state with our understanding the prophetic notion of God which you know permeates the entire Hebrew Bible, obviously and You know God plays a role at every level of the prophetic experience. Oh, you know God You know created existence in in and you know sustained existence in including the natural world which in Which includes the human brain, which you know God designed at least, you know theoretically in order to communicate with us And and you know God is the source Of you know prophecy, you know without you know God there is no prophecy You know one can train for example as occurs in you know, you know, Buddhism for example and become qualified as it were but still even if you were qualified as no guarantee of being given the prophetic state because ultimately the you know final arbiter of Attaining the prophetic state is God because of certain, you know needs of the moment You know, if you're qualified that makes it more likely, you know that you would experience prophecy, but it's no guarantee And you know, so other than you know, you know determining Well the hardware and and you know the software You know for experiencing You know the prophetic state, you know God also As you know the source of the message and the content and You know one can interpret the content of the prophetic experience But it's pretty hard and oftentimes what you'll see is you know that God interprets the contents Of the prophetic state, you know to the prophet or the one experiencing your prophecy Or God's angels explain the meaning of the content. That's quite common and you know, and you know some of You know the later prophets like you know Zechariah and Ezekiel I and And well, and it's especially, you know the case with Daniel You know, there are explaining angels and you know the angels as you know, God's as you know, God's representatives are important or well what are critical and in the interpretation of the visions and and and other voices and what's going on in the prophetic experience and You know the message Has got to do with God as well. You know, what are God's attributes? Being compassionate being wise being existent being alive those kinds of things and When you understand God's attributes, you know, then you emulate, you know those in your everyday interactions, which are You know represented and the you know legal codes, and you know moral and ethical You know precepts, you know, which are laid down, you know, so It isn't that one becomes, you know It isn't in the prophetic, you know world or world view that one becomes, you know One with God, but you know the goal is, you know, if you know to communicate with God and as a result thereof You learn about, you know, what God is and what you know the expectations are to become, you know, God like in your everyday life Yeah, thanks. Thanks for that description and so coming back to this idea of categories Which you you talk about when you talk about God as well and how you're choosing to use different types of gendered or gender neutral pronouns when you're speaking to your your audience Could you also say something about? How how important are categories in terminology when talking about this genre of quote-unquote drugs which you've referred to as psychedelic sometimes we hear and phaeogens or Hostinogens or sacraments there's so many different words people can use to describe these things Could you say something on? What you think about how important terminology is and how people might react differently depending on the language we use to describe these things Yeah, I yeah, well that's a very important issue well So the two most common, you know terms for these drugs are you know psychedelic and And you know the older term is you know is you know called hallucinogenic, you know, that's the medical legal term You know and you know more recently that they've been called sacraments or in COGins or those kinds of terms But you know, I've always liked you know psychedelic it means mind disclosing or mind, you know manifesting and I think it's able to capture, you know, I'm like all of the elements of this state Because you know oftentimes there aren't hallucinations, you know, so that kind of disqualifies, you know the term hallucinogen You know the and you know the and the term and see which and you know It you know presupposes a belief in divinity, which not everybody shares and also a particular state of consciousness Which not everybody attains, you know, so I think the idea of you know psychedelic or mind Manifesting or mind disclosing is that the most generic It can't contain ecstatic experiences or terrifying ones that can contain land You know banal completely empty kinds of states You know I've You know a lot of people are unhappy with the word, you know psychedelic, you know because of all of the you know cultural baggage But there are plenty of important, you know words which contain a lot of baggage, you know like a love and God and Peace and those kinds of things which you know have been misused and abused over the millennia, but still You know that hasn't You know made them any less important or after it so Am I you know worked hard to maintain and you know kind of revisit five the turn, you know psychedelic so continuing on this note of how Using words is helpful for various purposes of communication or teaching people So as you know from our previous Conversations, I'm currently teaching a chorus entitled religion drugs and culture and so do you have any reflections? you'd like to share on how your recent book might be useful in a college classroom or in another type of teaching atmosphere and what kinds of Experience or advice you have to share about that You know I'd like to you well But you know speaking of you know terminology, you know one of your questions, you know that you sent me You know last night, you know was the one of you know referring to goddess and it As opposed to a he or she yeah, you know, so maybe we could touch upon them. You know that's for like a minute or so Yes, certainly and I would just emphasize I think that that's relevant to Appealing to various cultural sensibilities to because like you said the term in the engine could be problematic or off-putting for some people who might Be interested in something like mysticism or spirituality, but not so much in the idea of God so I think it's really useful in your book how you problematize this word God that we have our ideas of and Even when you do things seemingly simple like changer on a pronoun. It really challenges our conceptualization Yeah, I mean I started off, you know with my translating of the text, you know to myself anyway, you know from the biblical Hebrew You know I was uncomfortable with calling God if he But I was also uncomfortable with calling God if she because you know God has no genitals, you know He's got or it's got you know, no chromosomes or genes and It's you know kind of complicated within the context of you know the you know within Hebrew because there isn't any You know non, you know gendered you know third person in a pronoun It could be it or it could be he Or it can also be she you know And every example of the third person pronoun for God with he but it also could be it But you know because there is no it and you know Hebrew see there she or he Like you know, well for example of the day is a male You know it's It's masculine now, you know, but you'd never say you know If you if you're referring, you know, you know to the days You know whether you don't say his whether you let me say it's whether, you know, so I Experimented with you know replacing every instance of he which was referring, you know to God You know what if You know capitalized it of course but you know that didn't seem quite kosher so to speak either because You know if you're being spoken to or speaking to you know something You're not speaking to it. It isn't really speaking. He is more comfortable or more You know compatible with every day, you know parlance or you know thinking to be speaking, you know to a person Or you know to a you know to an animal. Let's say Yeah, in in which case it had to be either he or she You know, so I then you know decided To look a little more carefully at you know, you know the gendering of you know references to God You know God is called, you know king in the Bible not queen You'd call a warrior as opposed to being called a you know warrior f You know, so all of the examples of any gendering Of you know nouns referring to God. We're always in the masculine sense So, you know, I kind of you know bit the bullet and you know when I decided to you know gender the pronoun I you know decided you know to go with he and you know that isn't Because I think of you know God as a man or as a male, but you know that was you know just a convention in the text You know, you know, but at other times It really didn't seem appropriate, you know to limit. You know God to a you know Gendered you know pronoun You know like when you're speaking of you know, God is being everywhere and I'm the present on omnipotent and aware of everything You know timeless space was you really? can't you know, it's to Discuss or you know, or you know to describe You know God as you know being everywhere, you know, he is everywhere. You know makes no sense It's just to you know mind-boggling, you know, so and and and you know places like that I you know decided, you know, you know to defer to the if you know So in your cases where you know the text is you know describing, you know, God's being everywhere I would translate it as it is everywhere, you know, so But you know in my translations of the verses I you know try to keep a balance, you know between the more personal Quality of God and the more in personal ones, you know by you know choosing my pronouns carefully Yeah, and I think you explained that well in the book and I also think it works well didactically because it it brings attention to the idea of The English isn't the the language we're working with and you explore various Hebrew roots and that helps bring things to light So I think it's a it's a helpful tactic that you take in that regard So in in terms of how this text might be used in teaching context do you could you say something about that again whether we're thinking in terms of higher education or Workshops or study circles or something like that. I mean in a broad sense Yeah, well, I think there is you know the academic approach and there's the more experiential approach And you know to the extent that you know those overlap, you know that would be worth just exploring to I Think from the academic point of view, you know, I haven't thought that much about this question because it hasn't come up before Um, but I think it was in academics You know within you know the university within Context of you know clinical spirituality research was just taking place at a number of academic centers around the world You know, there's emphasis on the units of mystical state as the benchmark You know the goal of spiritual experience in general and also within, you know the psychedelic community You know, but that's not the case or I don't think it has to be the case I think the more interactive relational one, which is you know, which you know the prophetic state is you know the paradigm there are ought to be you know given equal you know footing equal airtime I Think you know the emphasis is on the mystical you know to the state has got to do with see What they call the you know the embarrassing stigma to you know prophecy which you know relate, you know To the existence of an external God who has certain qualities and expectations, you know for us as people You know, you can kind of you know sidestep that stuff Well when you're kind of you know merging with the light and then you know come out and you can kind of make it up as you go along which I'm crazy well, I'm you know kind of You know character, you know character sharing, you know the second now you know mindset, but I think to a large extent, you know, that's the case You know like if it's all one it's all one so, you know, nothing really matters Almost long as you you know maintain a certain equanimity You know, so I think it Well, you know, the idea is contained in the book Kind of you know in a way, you know give more life to the study of the Bible You know, I Spend a fair amount of time describing, you know the medieval in metaphysics Which you know the philosophers of that day and age, you know developed? To understand the prophetic experience and you know one of them is or you know one of you know their You know concepts is in the balance between the rational faculty and the imaginative, you know faculty And if you look at you know the positivity of information that comes, you know You know from the psychedelic in a direct state you can you can look at those compounds or those you know substances as You know slowly stimulating, you know the imaginative faculty without much of the corresponding you Know Influence on other rational faculty and It seems if you want to Increase the informational, you know content of the DMT and other psychedelic states one can work on the rational faculty through study and in particular the study of the paradigmatic interactive prophetic text and Also when you're looking at People who want to understand the Bible at a more experiential level Who are you know who are already familiar with the text? You know in other words, you know, they've got you know well developed in rational faculties you know the State of mind out of which you know the text emerged there shares in a certain imaginative, you know features, you know with the psychedelic one, you know So you could you know conceive of stimulating the imaginative, you know faculty with with these compounds In order to you know kind of reenter or enter into the state Which you know shares certain you know qualities, you know with a prophetic one But still I'm not answering your question about if you know relevant, but you know say to undergraduate, you know religious studies classes I think I think you do to a degree in the sense that Interdisciplinarity is really important and thinking about you know things like psychedelic drug use and reading the Bible Which a lot of people might not see a natural connection in drawing attention to it can raise interesting questions about natural science and social scientific research and theology So I could at least take a take away some few instructive points of what you've just said Well, I think also you know there's this whole you know You know discipline, which is called, you know, which is called a neuro theology who which is being employed to understand spiritual experience and it's you know, it's you know fundamental you know tenant is You know that the brain responds to certain stimuli with a state of mind or a brain state that is only later You know call spiritual In the other words, you know, if you're, you know, looking at how You know neuro theology could explain You know the prophetic state it would be you know, you know that as a result of prayer or you know fasting you know that You know that the brain generates the impression of community of communicating with God You know, so that's you know what I call the bottom up a kind of model Yeah, and the term is coined to describe the top-down model is is Theo-neurology which provides a more God-oriented approach to at least the prophetic subtype of spiritual experience and in that model I propose that God communicates with humans through the you know You know through the ages of the brain As opposed to the brain generating the impression of that communication taking place So, you know, I don't think they are necessarily in conflict One isn't necessarily intended to replace the other you know, theo-neurology isn't superior to you know, you know to neuro theology But I think it at least allows the conversation to expand to one that incorporates a more spiritual world view as opposed to excluding it For the you know sake of a purely, you know brain oriented one You know in the prophetic state for example one could postulate using a more spiritual, you know model is You know that God made you know DMT as a mean of his communicating with us and You know, and you know the DMT is you know, they're right, you know substance, you know for that you know particular, you know function and In the prophetic state if indeed it is, you know mediated by God You know, then God's overflow or the spiritual or the you know the spiritual Eflux as you know, as the you know, medievalists describe it would stimulate one's production of naturally occurring DMT And you know that would be involved in your mediating, you know the content of the state And you know, and you know then as a result of you know, the rational your faculty being equally stimulated, you know one can then in interpret you know, those one could in what one, you know, could interpret, you know, those contents and Extract, you know the prophetic message, you know from them So you know And well, you know, so returning, you know to the undergraduate question or even you know the graduate student question You know, I think you know that people with interest in spirituality feel like they're kind of, you know pigeonholed in to Accepting either a purely You know materialistic perspective in a mechanistic one or else A purely spiritual, you know theological, you don't have dogmatic one as it were You know that you have, you know to accept other aspects of a you know religious, you know tradition if you were to Want to study the prophetic state or you know religious states in general So I think you know my new model helps you kind of, you know bridge that apparent, you know dichotomy You know one could believe in God and also believe in the brain as Being configured, you know by God, I mean you could study the brain You could induce brain changes which might make the prophetic state, you know more likely for example but It wouldn't you know It wouldn't or it makes you know possible you know the setting of a place at the table for the discussion of The biology of spiritual experience for people who you know believe in God and want to include, you know God in that conversation And I can say too that I in this class that I'm teaching I had students watch your Documentary based on the DMT the spirit molecule the documentary of the same name and also assign chapters from the recent book and it's sparked They've sparked really a fascinating conversation so at least I can share one testimony of having definite success with your work in the classroom then but what you say makes sense and fits into those kinds of questions that I think your your work raises and in that regard in terms of questions that your work raises which are too many to count what kinds of Future or current projects are you working on that either relate to or or depart from your your recent book? Well one character in the Bible really draws my attention at Abraham You know Abraham was the first two and Abraham is you know considers you know the patriarch of all three of the major Western religions But at the same time Abraham didn't you know follow the law, you know the mosaic law the rabbinic law which defines northern of Judaism And Abraham experienced quite a few visions and interactions with God and went through a lot of personal you know trials and tribulations you know lots of tests You know so the whole you know concept of a you know Setical religion which isn't you know necessarily legalistic appeals to me So I've been learning everything I can about Abraham especially, you know from the Jewish point of view, you know But also from the Christian point of view Especially, you know the you know the you know Especially the perspective of Paul And you know also the Muslim point of view You know his you know role You know within what you know within the lineage of Islam You know I can see by Islam So I would like to maybe do a fictional treatment perhaps of Abraham's life Taking into account all of those you know of the disparate you know views of Abraham the Christian the Jewish and the Muslim You know you know the episodes in Abraham's life, you know Sodom and Gomorrah the binding of Isaac You know it's you know the covenant between the pieces all those things you know being told to leave his homeland You know all of those were the you know founding moments of the Jewish you know tradition But you know Abraham, you know never really falled at the law the only you know legal You know thing that he actually ever did was to become circumcised. You know that is about it So I think it's interesting to you know look upon him as a paradigm That you know prophetic religion, which is a lot more personal, you know than legalistic and rabbinic in nature Sure, and it sounds like in terms of reaching audiences in particular Western audiences Abraham is a natural choice as it were to appeal to people that you know relate to him somehow in terms of their tradition or Culture, so it sounds like a really fascinating project. So if I could ask one last question before we depart Which I don't normally ask the authors I talk with but I think you're you're special in this regard because You've the DMT research you've done and please correct me if I'm wrong but as far as I know is idiosyncratic and there's really no other studies that have been done like it and so my question for you is you know if full government permission and facilities and money are not an issue what what kinds of future research on psychedelics or DMT would you hope to see whether in your lifetime or in the You know next century or what have you realize it's a broad question But something I'll rephrase it concisely basically what what kinds of research would you like to see if sky's the limit? Yeah, well speaking of DMT studies, you know, there was a German DMT study which was published in 2005 or 2007 And it actually You know came out in an English language journal. Yeah, it was an interesting Study they compared a continuous infusion of DMT with a continuous infusion of pedamine for maybe two hours three hours And it was you know done within the context of these drugs, you know, mimicking certain, you know, features of psychosis, you know So it's kind of a hard core, you know, you know, kind of, you know, kind of, you know, pathologizing Kind of study but but but still it, you know, was a human DMT study that took place after ours You know, I corresponded with the primary officer But you know, she's pretty tight-lipped about what you know people have experienced is they're like, so you really can't You know tell And also, you know, there have been a number of ayahuasca studies that have been published over the last maybe 10 or 20 years and And ayahuasca is an Amazonian brew that contains You know, DMT and another substance which allows the DMT to be orally active, you know So it's an orally active, you know, form of DMT that lasts, you know, four to six hours or so And there's quite a few descriptions out there of, you know, the ayahuasca effect and, you know, qualitatively It's quite, you know, you know, similar to the DMT experience, but it's just a bit, you know, more prolonged You can, you know, work with it, you know, better or, you know, more easily You know, so as far as future studies, well You know, I think we need to look at what is the DMT, you know, doing in our bodies, you know, that's a very important question You know, it's an interesting compound, you know, because it is, you know, it's It seems to be a You know, it seems to be a critical component of normal brain function because the brain Expends energy and getting DMT from the bloodstream into the brain itself and there's only a handful of You know, crucial substances for brain metabolism you've got the brain, you know, treats that right, you know, so it seems that this, you know, DMT Is as important, you know, to the brain as, for example, you know, glucose is, you know, so that's an interesting, you know, finding which, you know, which, you know, nobody's really Explored, you know, you know, to my knowledge, you know, what would happen if, you know, bodies stop making DMT, for example And, you know, a couple of years ago, there was a group in, Wisconsin, which, you know, which, you know, described Increased an activity of the gene and enzyme Responsible for DMT, you know, synthesis is occurring in the retina as well, you know, so it's, you know, it seems as if, you know, DMT Is playing a critical role in consciousness in general and particular, you know, visual consciousness You know, so I think we need to understand what, you know, going on there, you know, like You know, some people like to talk about, well, everything's just a big, you know, DMT trip You know, like everyday reality is just a big, you know, DMT experience, you know, but there are some, you know, scientific, you know, bases for making them that You know, comment, you know, now So, I think we need to learn more, understand more, study more about, you know, what is the role, you know, DMT and even normal awareness, you know, normal consciousness Yeah, well thank you so much for for sharing that and I would encourage our listeners once more to Read the things that you've published on the topic and that can help elucidate a lot of the things that we've chatted about and So please let me thank you once more, Dr. Strassman for sharing your time with us and I look forward to learning more about your research as it unfolds Well, thanks very much. I enjoy the interview a lot That was my conversation with Dr. Rick Strassman Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at the University of New Mexico about his exciting book DMT and the Soul of Prophecy, a new science of spiritual revelation in the Hebrew Bible Published by Park Street Press in 2014. Thanks for listening [MUSIC] [ Silence ]
DMT and the Soul of Prophecy:A New Science of Spiritual Revelation in the Hebrew Bible (Park Street Press, 2014) asks a number of provocative questions about drugs, consciousness, prophecy, and the Hebrew Bible–with attention to how a particular chemical can help us understand mystical experience. DMT (dimethyltryptamine) is a molecule endogenous to several mammals including humans, as well as the active psychedelic ingredient in a number of plant species around the world–most notably in an Amazonian brew called ayahuasca. Rick Strassman‘s first book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule, showcases his research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, during which he injected several volunteers with DMT as part of a government-sanctioned research project. During the trials, volunteers experienced a number of similar phenomena, such as communication with other-than-human beings, out-of-body experiences, and geometrically complex closed-eye visuals. DMT and the Soul of Prophecy complements Strassman’s first book, but it also stands on its own and gives enough context of his DMT research to make sense of his arguments about prophecy in the Hebrew Bible. The new monograph aims to further interpret the data from Strassman’s experiments in the 90s, by arguing that the notion of prophecy in the Hebrew Bible offers a compelling model for what happens in the DMT state. One might ask, then, if the Hebrew prophets were affected by DMT. Although it’s not possible to know for sure, and Strassman doesn’t claim that they were, he nonetheless draws significant parallels between DMT experiences and prophetic states in the Hebrew Bible. At the cross-section of biology, psychology, and religious studies, Strassman’s monograph is sure to spark provocative conversations about the relationship between religion, drugs, and the politics of research.
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